Red99 Enchanters: Let them CHARM players IMO

[dusk883]

I played two classes on TZ, Necro and Enchanter. Life was too easy as a Necro most of the time so I would often play my Enchanter for fun (or when my necro was getting corpse camped). We were able to charm players for much of the time that Tallon was around and it was great. I wasn't a "good pvp'er" and always, always ran out of mana trying to pvp with my human enchanter with mid level gear. So I would end up just chain mezz'ing players until they plugged, that part I had down pat.

So this brings me to a question, will enchanters be able to charm players? Please?

[dusk883]

Will never forget the time shortly after charming players was removed on Tallon Zek and I ran into another enchanter, we fought for an hour, sitting next to each other trying like hell to get mana to finish the other guy off. We were so ineffective that we just called a truce at level 32 or something because it was too much work to try and kill the other guy. Now, it we could have charmed each other, he'd be swimming with the fishes (or I would have been). Charming is FUN. Brings a fear factor from the class and takes away from the "oh lol he's a chanter" if we aren't allowed to charm. I don't care how nerfed it gets, just knowing it's possible would be good enough for pvp chanters to have their fun, too.

[Humerox]

Charming and fearing players - while fun - is just too wildly OP imo.

Enchanters would need more love with NPC charming in regards to PvP I think...that's the most dangerous weapon they have.

[dusk883]

For the record, there was also an early time on TZ when you could charm other caster's pets. THAT was a great equalizer.

And yes, I realize I was a terrible pvper and was part of the problem why I couldn't kill players 1vs1 as an enchanter.

[dusk883]

was it really OP'd? I think in theory it was...but it was a mana sucker and if/when it wore off early, the enchanter was typically screwed. You had do something QUICK when you had someone charmed. If it was a situation that you knew they had 7 or 8 levels on you, the chanter would typically just charm them to create distance. Darwinism said if you're not an enchanter, do not engage the enchanter near guards... my opinion anyway. Enchanters on TZ were a rare sight when Charm was removed as I remember. Logging in meant instant, "group with us!" when pvp charm went away because so few were around.

[dusk883]

which reminds me also that I don't know if it was the case on blue servers but illusions didn't have a time limit on either Tallon or Vallon through velious at least. Yet they have timers on P99. This doesn't have big impact for pvp stuff but at least its something to consider if enchanters aren't allowed to pvp charm.

[Yukahwa]

Charm was definitely OP. Attack a guard.

[Crenshinabon]

Enchanters are already awesome when played right. They are similar to the bard as a caster class imo. Charming players would make an already good class extremely overpowered. Not to mention charming players leads to griefing and xp loss 90% of the time. Now charming pets, thats a toss up.

[Rainflush]

Perhaps place a maximum duration on Charm/Fear spells versus players or something? It seems like it could be over-powered though it's lame when something simply doesn't work on players as it can almost always be implemented in some way which would limit it's effectiveness without negating it entirely.

[lethdar]

Loool no. I plan on playing an enchanter and still think this is stupid OP / broke.

Pal nukes your charmed pc, /pet back off, repeat, throw into guard, throw into lava, run in a bad pathing area so that the pet gets stuck somewhere and release the pc to be stuck until a gm saves him, the list goes on.

[dusk883]

Charm was definitely OP. Attack a guard.

Would you say it was OP if "/pet attack" was removed from a charmed player's "abilities"?

[dusk883]

Haters!

[Vendar]

player charm is classic!

so was my pumice uzi ;)

[Rogean]

Charm was definitely OP. Attack a guard.

A few things to consider:

Suiciding a player into a mob results in a rezzable xp death, versus the lower xp loss but unrezzable corpse of a pvp death.

The owner will also get aggro from the guard, and also keep in mind that on p99, when a charm wears off, all aggro is transferred to the owner. You would then have a player and a guard after you.

[dusk883]

What does a crappy chanter do in pvp anyway without charm? Pretend you're level 35, a human in an FBR and mid level gear. How do you smoke that Warrior? Rogue? whoever? What did I do? I mez'd and ran bc there was never enough mana to nuke, much less root and nuke. Might have a chance if I had pet with me but since the chanter pet was so weak, the melee would kill your pet in a few seconds and then you were toast. What's the spell strategy? Sure, I could kill a wizard... pet classes? melee? Let this newb know how you were doing it?

[Doors]

Way too abusable.

[dusk883]

A few things to consider:

Suiciding a player into a mob results in a rezzable xp death, versus the lower xp loss but unrezzable corpse of a pvp death.

The owner will also get aggro from the guard, and also keep in mind that on p99, when a charm wears off, all aggro is transferred to the owner. You would then have a player and a guard after you.

Be forewarned Enchanter-haters! Rogean is hinting that we may get our way and be able to charm your asses. I'm all for gaining that guard aggro when you've fallen at his knees. Or get aggro from both player and guard, this is FUN and not OP, IMO. It was enabled for MOST of the time TZ was around through Velious anyway.

For the OP argument, if we can't do to players like we can do to mobs, then Warriors (same logic) shouldn't be able to Double Attack players with your big bad 2HS. Just sayin'

[YendorLootmonkey]

find a willing melee partner and have an ass-rapey pet that wont aggro you when charm breaks for XPing with!

[Humerox]

A few things to consider:

Suiciding a player into a mob results in a rezzable xp death, versus the lower xp loss but unrezzable corpse of a pvp death.

The owner will also get aggro from the guard, and also keep in mind that on p99, when a charm wears off, all aggro is transferred to the owner. You would then have a player and a guard after you.

If you're toying with the idea of keeping player charm in, I already know what my main is changing to, lol.

[dusk883]

I bet a lot of people agree with you but few are going to follow through beyond the 20s IMO...it's harder to pvp charm than most remember I think. Most of the time it'd last just long enough to wipe the grin off your face and you're back in the "oh shit" mode again.

[dusk883]

Here's what I remember even when Charm was enabled, especially if not the initiator of pvp:

You are engulfed in darkness.

SK running at your ass.

"oh shit! time to charm this bastard!"
"I will mez, tash and charm his ass into the deep end of the pool baby!"

WHACK You've been hit for 244 damage.
WHACK You've been hit for 244 damage.

Cast mez
Your spell has been interupted.

WHACK You've been hit for 324 damage.
WHACK You've been hit for 120 damage.

cast mez
Castersmash resists your mez.

WHACK You've been hit for 324 damage.
WHACK You've been hit for 120 damage.

LOADING... please wait.

Not that it happened all the time ..but was often the story. So sometimes when the reflex to say "Charm is OP!" might not be the case. We folded like lawn chairs when anyone resisted anything we did. Sure, there were some badass enchanters out there, I just never ran into any.

Charm was really only highly effective as the initiator of pvp. When attacked, my enchanter was likely toast by any melee class. yes... I was a shitty pvper but I saw a ton of same shittiness chanters fall to the same.

[Roag the Gentleman]

Be forewarned Enchanter-haters! Rogean is hinting that we may get our way and be able to charm your asses. I'm all for gaining that guard aggro when you've fallen at his knees. Or get aggro from both player and guard, this is FUN and not OP, IMO. It was enabled for MOST of the time TZ was around through Velious anyway.

For the OP argument, if we can't do to players like we can do to mobs, then Warriors (same logic) shouldn't be able to Double Attack players with your big bad 2HS. Just sayin'

Charming players was not around through Velious. Barely even lasted into Kunark if that long.

[lethdar]

I doubt a player is going to live long enough for charm to break once the guard is on them. Not to mention tossing them into a casters guild. Even if it does break the enchanter is going to long gone out of range just for safety.

And as for pvp without charm... theres still a reason an enchanter is almost always the first target to be taken out. Pillage enchantment, tash, stuns, etc.

[pasi]

Charming players is going to be downright game-breaking. With that said, I'm all for it.

[lethdar]

But really it's cool with me, i was going to be an enchanter anyway, now when I'm bored it'll be even more fun sitting leved in the air charming newbies and throwing them into caster guilds.

[Xantille]

Lul. There's going to be approx 10 melees on this server. And they're all going to be hybrids.

[dusk883]

Charming players is going to be downright game-breaking. With that said, I'm all for it.

It didn't break the game for the 2+ years it was enabled. Why now?

[juicedsixfo]

The fear bug was the best, when you could fear someone in your level range and have your level 50 friend one shot 'em.

[pasi]

It didn't break the game for the 2+ years it was enabled. Why now?

For the 2+ years, the majority of people playing PvP (at least RZ) weren't even PKs let alone people who only play to grief others. But yeah, I'm for charming because I don't play this game for 'fair' PvP on an archaic combat system.

[beentheredonethat]

Charming and fearing players - while fun - is just too wildly OP imo.

Enchanters would need more love with NPC charming in regards to PvP I think...that's the most dangerous weapon they have.

I wouldn't call Fearing someone wildly OP. To my monk roots and snares were seriously considered OP since it basically meant I'm standing there getting ready to eat an icecomet which would wipe me out in one shot.

Blind really sucked, since I would lose ability to bag gear. I think when comes down to it, anything can be OP depending on the situation.

EQ wasn't ever made for 1v1 pvp, its completely unbalanced. A monk without MR has absolutely no chance against someone with speed buffs or roots.

I used to fear / charm people off me on Rallos I remember. It was a very strong option, but most feared by far was root + icecomet.

[dusk883]

noooobody was screaming OP when Charming was live for the first year... noone. The whines came later. Now it's just built in, IMO.

It's often "OP" when your class can't do it is my take.

[Crenshinabon]

noooobody was screaming OP when Charming was live for the first year... noone. The whines came later. Now it's just built in, IMO.

It's often "OP" when your class can't do it is my take.

All I remember is playing classic and being in Oasis when I met my first pvp encounter with a charming enchanter. Like three fights in a row first thing he did was charm me and have me attack a deepwater and I would get owned. I also remember thinking that was the most OP thing I have ever seen. I made an enchanter to have them take out charm on players not even a week later. I played on RZ. I also felt the same with fear making me run around for 10+ seconds and me just getting owned the whole time I could do nothing. These were needed changes.

[Yukahwa]

Yep. Its not an option.

[dusk883]

Yep. Its not an option.

Rogean's post in the thread contradicts this theory you have.

[raptorak]

charm could be cool if it worked for only a few seconds, same with fear. blindness was nasty but hardly ever landed if i recall.

[beentheredonethat]

All I remember is playing classic and being in Oasis when I met my first pvp encounter with a charming enchanter. Like three fights in a row first thing he did was charm me and have me attack a deepwater and I would get owned. I also remember thinking that was the most OP thing I have ever seen. I made an enchanter to have them take out charm on players not even a week later. I played on RZ. I also felt the same with fear making me run around for 10+ seconds and me just getting owned the whole time I could do nothing. These were needed changes.

I remember being a monk and getting rooted and there was nothing I could do. I would just have to stand and take it until "Loading please wait...". This was a permanent state for me at some points.

If they made duration of all of those spells in pvp much shorter (like 10 seconds) that would probably make it all right. And maybe a limit on number of times one can be feared, charmed, rooted, snared per fight or something... if we are going to go down the route of balancing a game that was never intended to be balanced.

[lethdar]

I remember being a monk and getting rooted and there was nothing I could do. I would just have to stand and take it until "Loading please wait...". This was a permanent state for me at some points.

If they made duration of all of those spells in pvp much shorter (like 10 seconds) that would probably make it all right. And maybe a limit on number of times one can be feared, charmed, rooted, snared per fight or something... if we are going to go down the route of balancing a game that was never intended to be balanced.

Are you wehrmacht?

ROOTED, NOTHING I CAN DO.

[Yukahwa]

Just saw rogeans post thanks for pointing that out.

Its easy to run away from guards after having them murder the player.

Its heavily exploitable but if you want it in the game, go for it I will enjoy it for sure.

[beentheredonethat]

Are you wehrmacht?

ROOTED, NOTHING I CAN DO.

unrelated to wehrmacht

[TR Spokesman]

why play a class when 1 of your biggest abilities is removed due to pvp, when pvp is the main point of the server.


Necro without fear is probably worse than enchanter without charm tho imo. It's not like it's impossible to equip resist gear.

also if it's team based pvp, then people would be more apt to build a more reliable team.

Or I suppose people could QQ like this is WoW and have every class nerfed to crap.


"OMG bard song is so OP, I can't land a nuke... Nearf plaeayz!:

[lethdar]

why play a class when 1 of your biggest abilities is removed due to pvp, when pvp is the main point of the server.


Necro without fear is probably worse than enchanter without charm tho imo. It's not like it's impossible to equip resist gear.

also if it's team based pvp, then people would be more apt to build a more reliable team.

Or I suppose people could QQ like this is WoW and have every class nerfed to crap.


"OMG bard song is so OP, I can't land a nuke... Nearf plaeayz!:

Holy bluebie shit.

[pasi]

Enchanters do pretty well without being able to charm PCs. Having a 60% hasted frog on you is pretty rowdy. There are reasons enchanters are always the first target trained down.

[TR Spokesman]

Holy bluebie shit.

omgaz i dont wanna get feared/charmed


Next bards will be crying because it takes them forever to kill someone with melee.

[Littlegyno]

omgaz i dont wanna get feared/charmed


Next bards will be crying because it takes them forever to kill someone with melee.

lol? seriously lol? Yea, bards can't kill people very fast, but that's mainly because they're a group support class. Selos? Resist songs?

And trust me dog, necros can fucking wreck havoc even without fear. You've got to be african american descent.

[Yukahwa]

Necro's are a very powerful PVP class without fear. Just like enchanters are a powerful one without charm and fear in PVP.

I know that "Holy bluebie shit" isn't very informative, but lethdar was just dumbstruck by the clear lack of eq pvp experience you displayed with your comment.

[TR Spokesman]

wonder how long before clerics chain blinding is OP and thus nerfed.

[Littlegyno]

wonder how long before clerics chain blinding is OP and thus nerfed.

Easy to resist with any MR gear and buff?

God damn you're stupid

[TR Spokesman]

Easy to resist with any MR gear and buff?

God damn you're stupid

but what if you don't have resist gear... OMG i'm so blinded. OH and what if there is no one around to buff me... .OMG i'm so blinded.

[Littlegyno]

but what if you don't have resist gear... OMG i'm so blinded. OH and what if there is no one around to buff me... .OMG i'm so blinded.

??? get some resist gear? get some buffs? self buff? This is an MMO dog not quake.

[Knuckle]

Just want to point out blubies are trolling hard from being trolled so hard.

[TR Spokesman]

??? get some resist gear? get some buffs? self buff? This is an MMO dog not quake.

so this one time, i was playing a necro, i pushed my fear button and the target totally resisted it.

[Humerox]

at first i thought TR was serious...

[Yukahwa]

Me too. I was trolled big time. Better re roll my forum account to save face.

[TR Spokesman]

i'm done, i was just having some fun. Please excuse me while i /exit now

[Littlegyno]

i'm done, i was just having some fun. Please excuse me while i /exit now

i like you dog.

[beentheredonethat]

Necro's are a very powerful PVP class without fear. Just like enchanters are a powerful one without charm and fear in PVP.

I know that "Holy bluebie shit" isn't very informative, but lethdar was just dumbstruck by the clear lack of eq pvp experience you displayed with your comment.

so are wizards without roots, and clerics without roots and blinds.

[Galacticus]

A big problem with charming players is that they are then treated as your pet, which you can then fully buff with spells that normally wouldnt work on you for the level difference.

Though in classic eq there was no level restriction.

But if you make charm pvp enabled, make fear pvp enabled too.

But dont enable them.

[beentheredonethat]

well you'll just make some classes punching bags if you do that. If necro can't fear someone off them, they'll basically die. It's a problem with the game.

without MR casters do really well, with MR casters are free kills. This was never balanced, and it would be a pointless to even try to do so.

If you want to make it all "fair", you have to turn pvp into everyone simply rolling a /random 100 and whoever gets the bigger number through RNG wins. Thats the only way. But this game is never about fair, it was never about fair, and it probably shouldn't be if it has to stick to classic experience.

[lethdar]

well you'll just make some classes punching bags if you do that. If necro can't fear someone off them, they'll basically die. It's a problem with the game.

without MR casters do really well, with MR casters are free kills. This was never balanced, and it would be a pointless to even try to do so.

If you want to make it all "fair", you have to turn pvp into everyone simply rolling a /random 100 and whoever gets the bigger number through RNG wins. Thats the only way. But this game is never about fair, it was never about fair, and it probably shouldn't be if it has to stick to classic experience.

Holy shit dude never talk about pvp again.

[Salty]

well you'll just make some classes punching bags if you do that. If necro can't fear someone off them, they'll basically die. It's a problem with the game.

without MR casters do really well, with MR casters are free kills. This was never balanced, and it would be a pointless to even try to do so.

If you want to make it all "fair", you have to turn pvp into everyone simply rolling a /random 100 and whoever gets the bigger number through RNG wins. Thats the only way. But this game is never about fair, it was never about fair, and it probably shouldn't be if it has to stick to classic experience.

LOL

[Yukahwa]

This thread rocks. Look what you started TR spokesman. ; )

[beentheredonethat]

Holy shit dude never talk about pvp again.

i did enough pvp back in the days. my monk was a free kill until later when I had mr, at that point noone stood a chance one v one.

[pasi]

well you'll just make some classes punching bags if you do that. If necro can't fear someone off them, they'll basically die. It's a problem with the game.

without MR casters do really well, with MR casters are free kills. This was never balanced, and it would be a pointless to even try to do so.

If you want to make it all "fair", you have to turn pvp into everyone simply rolling a /random 100 and whoever gets the bigger number through RNG wins. Thats the only way. But this game is never about fair, it was never about fair, and it probably shouldn't be if it has to stick to classic experience.

I'm intoxicated and I support this man's ideas.

[mitic]

charming players is classic so it has to be in

period

[Hipnotizer]

i did enough pvp back in the days. my monk was a free kill until later when I had mr, at that point noone stood a chance one v one.

Bro, I will punching bag rape your monk on my necro w/o fear OR a pet just to proove how dumb/bad you are. See you soon!

[beentheredonethat]

Bro, I will punching bag rape your monk on my necro w/o fear OR a pet just to proove how dumb/bad you are. See you soon!

That's a hollow threat Mr. punching bag.

http://www.mixed-martial-arts-training.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/grappling-bag1.jpg

[TR Spokesman]

This thread rocks. Look what you started TR spokesman. ; )

you're welcome lol

[Tewaz]

The owner will also get aggro from the guard, and also keep in mind that on p99, when a charm wears off, all aggro is transferred to the owner. You would then have a player and a guard after you.


So is this confirmation that you guys are not looking at fixing the aggro transference on charmed mobs issue?

[Yukahwa]

If by "aggro transference on charmed mobs issue" you mean what rogean said in your quote..I'd say the answer is yes.

Otherwise an enchy could casually charm mobs that will be killed by any given NPC and keep throwing them at that NPC until it dies..care free. As long as the enchanter isn't getting aggro they might as well not receive any faction hits or gains because it was really the orc pawn that killed the orc centurion.

Unless I'm totally misunderstanding you, and in that case..Sorry!

[Tewaz]

Well in classic, that would happen. But if you charmed one mob and sent it into a group of mobs, they would all turn on in like it was an NPC. That does not happen on this server and is not classic. I was just saying that it doesn't appear to be a problem that the staff is looking at.

[pasi]

Well in classic, that would happen. But if you charmed one mob and sent it into a group of mobs, they would all turn on in like it was an NPC. That does not happen on this server and is not classic. I was just saying that it doesn't appear to be a problem that the staff is looking at.

P99 does a lot of things that were not classic in order to raise the difficulty of classic EQ. Pet aggro and charm aggro are some of those things. My favorite is caster mobs having an up-to-level spellbook.

[Tewaz]

It is still a legit question about something that is very not classic in a server that strives for it.