Bob's Perfect World- A wall of text regarding the raid scene on P99

[citizen1080]

Yes I know...another thread on raiding on p99 and all the bullshit it involves. Sorry :)

In my opinion,

Seems like the most simple and elegant solution possible, something Devs can implement today which really would bring back that "classic feel", is ZERO gm interference for raid targets.

Guild X is going for CT, Guild Z Trains the shit outta them so they are unable to kill CT.

Normal scenario = Petitions, whining, bitching, GM intervention, suspensions, one guild getting loot over another, RnF posts, whining, bitching. Rinse and Repeat.


In my new perfect world there are no GM interventions. You don't like Guild Z training your shit? Train them back. For awhile its going to be a cluster fuck of trains. RnF will actually be worth reading again.

However, in the long run while this shitstorm is going on the intelligent players are going to realize, "shit man....we haven't killed anything worthwhile in weeks....all we do is train each other"

Once they realize this things should start to change, guild alliances, raid rotations, Big guilds letting small guilds help kill raid targets and getting to pick one item of loot off boss?! PEOPLE BEHAVING LIKE ADULTS!!?

Let the guilds police themselves. 99% of the server doesn't give a shit if Guild Z is Training Guild X in Fear. It does not effect us, we do not give a shit.

Spend your time fixing bugs, helping players with real issues and let the raid scene police its self.

The entire raid scene will deadlock if every time someone gets ready to kill Trak another guild trains them till they give up.

My option will FORCE guilds to play nice and free up DEV and GM time since they wont have to deal with the bullshit.


Not that anyone cares but, I am in Management at UPS. I learned a long time ago that if you treat your employees like children, always involving yourself every time they have the smallest issue, they will behave exactly like children. And I spent more time babysitting them than getting my work done.

However, if you treat them like intelligent adults and make them solve their own issues suddenly they have brains and are able to figure out most issues for themselves. Now a days I could not even show up to work and everything would be done and done correctly because I have a crew of people who think for themselves instead of a crew of children always looking to me to fix things.

I will admit I did not do much raiding Pre Velious and I have done ZERO raiding on P99, mostly due to not wanting to deal with all the bullshit here.

However, I think the P99 staff needs to step back and learn from my mistakes. Treat the players like adults and let the guilds police themselves and I think you will be pleasantly surprised in the long run.

-----

[Phallax]

Sadly I agree. People here act childish because we use the GMs as our parents and tattle on EVERYTHING. Let us work out our own problems and the raid scene might actually be worthwhile and more appealing. I havnt logged in in weeks and havnt raided seriously since long before Kunark because the raid scene is such shit.

Let the players police themselves and the GMs will actually be stress free.

[nymphloa]

Loads of respect for this guy! he taught me the truew meaning of the Platinum! AND OF COURSE THE IMPORTANCE OF WHORING IT!

/HUGS

oF COURSE SWIMMING POOLS FILLED WITH VIRTUAL CURRENCY DO NOT MAKE YOU HAPPY! but by god! it helps!

[mokfarg]

I am for this solution. You also wouldn't have people yelling GM favoritism if GMs weren't involved at all.

[Foxx]

tldr..

solution - play pvp

[Salty]

tldr

pvp, wipe it clean

[Foxx]

tldr

pvp, wipe it clean

beat salty to the punch, but in the end... us red folk are so wise and know the solutions to things. (without writing a novel)

[Kadron]

This is the best idea ever.. Implement it immediately!!

[Kruel]

worste idea ever. A group of 6 rogues can precamp trak and sit right under him.. (he doesnt see invis) and when he is pulld can just burn him down and take the loot since they will get exp. Honestly..

[Treats]

worste idea ever. A group of 6 rogues can precamp trak and sit right under him.. (he doesnt see invis) and when he is pulld can just burn him down and take the loot since they will get exp. Honestly..

Aggro Trak and trigger his AE? Six dead Rogues.

[soup]

worste idea ever. A group of 6 rogues can precamp trak and sit right under him.. (he doesnt see invis) and when he is pulld can just burn him down and take the loot since they will get exp. Honestly..

subtle "I need the GMs to babysit me" post

[Kevlar]

That shit doesn't work, it didn't work on live either.

Even if you do get the top two guilds to agree to some kind of truce, what will happen is the next "up and coming" guild will do the training. The the only ones who will ever get any raid loot are the aussie/asian guilds. Because they are on when everyone else it asleep.

At least thats how live works.

[SearyxTZ]

Searyx's Perfect World

P1999 but with PvP and antiKringeHax switches on.

GMs sit back and sip long island iced tea while the players kill eachother for content and don't have to poopsock or politick for pixels.

[Kruel]

Aggro Trak and trigger his AE? Six dead Rogues.

Apparently you have never raided trak. Currently you go full DPS, as hard as you can. Clerics spaming hopps etc, Rogues can evade and most resist his AE anyway. You guys are saying whoever gets the exp will get the kill.. this simply doesnt work.. why would anyone roll a cleric/shaman/bard etc...

If we changed this wizards or rogues would get the kill everytime.

[Kruel]

Lol... fucking moron.

mad?

[Seaweedpimp]

Just giggling at that great idea you have come up with.


Traks window is open btw, better get down there if you want to kill him (this year)

[achtung]

Fun as this would be, you seem to be assuming that people would naturally create order out of chaos. This is the internet, where people's most base impulses will always rule and chaos only begets more chaos. Basically people would be training eachother for months, and when they got tired of it they'd start raging against the GMs/Devs etc "omg ur running a shitty server" rather than organizing themselves.

[Kruel]

Just giggling at that great idea you have come up with.


Traks window is open btw, better get down there if you want to kill him (this year)

My idea? Im saying Bobs idea wouldnt work.

[Seaweedpimp]

What guild are you in kruel

[Kruel]

TR, what does that have to do with the price of beans in china... we are talking about the thread not about me.. but apparently you are in love with me.

[Treats]

Apparently you have never raided trak. Currently you go full DPS, as hard as you can. Clerics spaming hopps etc, Rogues can evade and most resist his AE anyway. You guys are saying whoever gets the exp will get the kill.. this simply doesnt work.. why would anyone roll a cleric/shaman/bard etc...

If we changed this wizards or rogues would get the kill everytime.

Are you dense? You said you could camp SIX rogues right under Trak and get the kill. If someone runs in and aggro's Trak (without the rest of their raid dummy) and his AE goes off, all those fucking rogues are dead. Christ.

[Kruel]

Are you dense? You said you could camp SIX rogues right under Trak and get the kill. If someone runs in and aggro's Trak (without the rest of their raid dummy) and his AE goes off, all those fucking rogues are dead. Christ.

If you loggin when trak spawns with 6 rogues with resist gear. Tank runs in and hammers to get aggro, rogues would not be dead from the AE (easy to resist). As any guild is killing trak the 6 rogues would out dmg 9/10 times any single group in the raid and get the exp from the kill. Last couple trak spawns, i loggin and the tank is literally running to trak and i just follow him. The only way this wouldnt work is if the guilds setup a DPS group.. but this isnt normally the case as trak is engaged 60 seconds after he pops or sooner.

[Kevlar]

If you loggin when trak spawns with 6 rogues with resist gear. Tank runs in and hammers to get aggro, rogues would not be dead from the AE (easy to resist). As any guild is killing trak the 6 rogues would out dmg 9/10 times any single group in the raid and get the exp from the kill. Last couple trak spawns, i loggin and the tank is literally running to trak and i just follow him. The only way this wouldnt work is if the guilds setup a DPS group.. but this isnt normally the case as trak is engaged 60 seconds after he pops or sooner.

If this would work why don't groups of rogues take trak out regularly? As soon as the first rogue backstabs trak is turning and thats a dead rogue. Then another, then another. I doubt they even get him down to 80 percent.

And who isn't going to see the rogues there? You don't think people are going to be tracking? doing /w? Casting see invis?

[Seaweedpimp]

Btw kruel, i think 6 necros could do a better job.

Well pull it off i mean.

[Kruel]

If this would work why don't groups of rogues take trak out regularly? As soon as the first rogue backstabs trak is turning and thats a dead rogue. Then another, then another. I doubt they even get him down to 80 percent.

And who isn't going to see the rogues there? You don't think people are going to be tracking? doing /w? Casting see invis?

Nono you are understanding me wrong, reread it. They said fuck "FTE" and let it be whoever get the kill (gets the exp and is able to loot). What im saying is if we did this i would make a team of rogues to follow any guild into there trak kill, KS the kill. Thats why they make FTE so that the guild who engages gets the kill, not the 6 people who did the most dps.

[Seaweedpimp]

Actually, 2.5 groups of necros if done right could drop trak in under 6 seconds!~

[Kruel]

Btw kruel, i think 6 necros could do a better job.

Well pull it off i mean.

I agree, 6 skilld members of either necro/rogue/wizard or a combo can ks a guild and take there loot if bobs rules were applied.

[Kruel]

Actually, 2.5 groups of necros if done right could drop trak in under 6 seconds!~

problem is when you HS he would just turn on another necro - lifetap and shroom. He would bounce around to much and would lifetap off there dps. Although would be fun to try.. on this server we wont be able to try anything creative for fun.

[Seaweedpimp]

problem is when you HS he would just turn on another necro - lifetap and shroom. He would bounce around to much and would lifetap off there dps. Although would be fun to try.. on this server we wont be able to try anything creative for fun.

Whos using harmshield


everyone run in and trucidation his ass / hoop him his gone.

3.2sec 1500 pt tap and say 2 seconds to drain the hoop.

I havent really done the math but it wouldnt take much more than 2 and a half groups.

And itd be like a 9 second fight.

[Seaweedpimp]

well i suppose the fte necro would be hs, but then its all over.

[Ennoia]

That shit doesn't work, it didn't work on live either.

Even if you do get the top two guilds to agree to some kind of truce, what will happen is the next "up and coming" guild will do the training. The the only ones who will ever get any raid loot are the aussie/asian guilds. Because they are on when everyone else it asleep.

At least thats how live works.

Uhhh....no? That's not even close to how live worked, at least not from what we saw. Our server was pretty much the same thing Bob is suggesting. I don't ever remember 'no training' being written anywhere when I first got the game, as well as never seeing 'no kill stealing' and a shitload of other things that ended up becoming 'play nice rules'.

[Kruel]

Whos using harmshield


everyone run in and trucidation his ass / hoop him his gone.

3.2sec 1500 pt tap and say 2 seconds to drain the hoop.

I havent really done the math but it wouldnt take much more than 2 and a half groups.

And itd be like a 9 second fight.

problem is truc is nearly a 6 sec cast. I think he would have 2 or 3 necros dead by that time, and 1 shroomed. On this server it seems everytime trak switches target he lifetaps so the necros would have to counter that also. Would be rough.. wish we could try 20 person trak kills on this server for fun.

[Seaweedpimp]

problem is truc is nearly a 6 sec cast. I think he would have 2 or 3 necros dead by that time, and 1 shroomed. On this server it seems everytime trak switches target he lifetaps so the necros would have to counter that also. Would be rough.. wish we could try 20 person trak kills on this server for fun.



Its a 3.2 second cast.

Its as fast as my 330 pt tap.

[Kruel]

Its a 3.2 second cast.

Its as fast as my 330 pt tap.

You are right, i wasnt loggd in so i used the wiki here

http://wiki.project1999.org/index.php/Trucidation

would make for a fun couple tries, although im still sketchy thinking about him bouncing and one shotting (lifetap-mellee) all the necros.

[Seaweedpimp]

lol then bring 6 moar necroz!

[Seaweedpimp]

30 lvl 60 necros could easily take out trak, that would be hilarious. ?I think i could be done with much less though.

[Kruel]

Necro Team Assemble!

[C5BAMF]

Searyx's Perfect World

P1999 but with PvP and antiKringeHax switches on.

GMs sit back and sip long island iced tea while the players kill eachother for content and don't have to poopsock or politick for pixels.

This.

[Hobby]

Bob...my perfect would is: You, Me, 500mil plat, a private isle, and a private airline to ship out goods people buy over the forums.


I miss thee!


Inventory: xxxxxxxxx Plat, 192 Gold, 54 Silver, 0 Copper
[Mon Mar 28 01:46:39 2011] You say, '#summon irbob'
[Mon Mar 28 01:46:40 2011] Summoning irbob to ecommons 741.7, -1356.0, 2.5
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:19 2011] Meccus says, 'GM ?''
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:34 2011] You say, 'NO....'
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:37 2011] You say, '#name Bob'
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:38 2011] Successfully renamed Irbob to Bob
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:38 2011] Sending player to char select.
[1 Monk] Bob (Iksar) <The Syndicate> ZONE: ecommons


Thus created Bob the Iksar, summoned to ec, and renamed.


<3 forever documented!

[SearyxTZ]

Necro Team Assemble!

Brick, where'd you get a hand grenade?

[Ravhin]

Trucidation should be 5.9 sec cast time during the era it does 1100 damage.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010611143655/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=518

If it is really only 3.2 then it should be bug reported.

[OngorDrakan]

Fuckin' A Bob. You got it right!

[YendorLootmonkey]

I refuse to believe that in "a perfect world", I would have to be in a guild of anti-social, training douchebags and endorse griefing others to get a chance at any raid target.

Such a server would end up being two guilds that train the shit out of each other, because the other guilds that didn't want to stoop to that level stopped bothering with the server, and those players that remained got recruited by the remaining two guilds to increase their mob train offense/defense.

[Gwence]

Sorry this isn't a new idea, IB tried to get this idea accepted over a year ago. GM's weren't having it then, doubt they'll consider it now.

Way to be thinking though!

[Motec]

Raid scene is fine. Fuck off.

[Phallax]

Sorry this isn't a new idea, IB tried to get this idea accepted over a year ago. GM's weren't having it then, doubt they'll consider it now.

Way to be thinking though!

With the way the sever is taking a shit lately they may.

And to all you reds claiming PvP its not gonna happen so just gtfo...seriously.

[Foxx]

Bob...my perfect would is: You, Me, 500mil plat, a private isle, and a private airline to ship out goods people buy over the forums.


I miss thee!


Inventory: xxxxxxxxx Plat, 192 Gold, 54 Silver, 0 Copper
[Mon Mar 28 01:46:39 2011] You say, '#summon irbob'
[Mon Mar 28 01:46:40 2011] Summoning irbob to ecommons 741.7, -1356.0, 2.5
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:19 2011] Meccus says, 'GM ?''
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:34 2011] You say, 'NO....'
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:37 2011] You say, '#name Bob'
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:38 2011] Successfully renamed Irbob to Bob
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:38 2011] Sending player to char select.
[1 Monk] Bob (Iksar) <The Syndicate> ZONE: ecommons


Thus created Bob the Iksar, summoned to ec, and renamed.


<3 forever documented!


GM favoritism ruining this server, which is why so many people hacking on this box... ppl like hobby ruin the box and make unfair rules so their friends can do what they want

[Arrisard]

Everquest is, without a doubt, a community driven game. If you take a look at the actual PNP from this era, 95% of it was addressed to cursing, various PC chat rules, impersonating people, 3rd party programs, etc. Very little was actually dedicated to things like KSing and ninja-looting. Infact, that's about covers the rest of it in a nutshell - don't ninja-loot or KS and that all GM decisions are final.

This had 2 primary effects. It actually kept the power in the players' court, where it should be, and gave the GMs a bit of a wide lane in which to arbitrate disputes (This is where a lot of "what exactly constitutes GM involvement in a classic sense" comes from).

Infact, the latter contributed to the fact that one wanted GM intervention because of it's fairly whimsical nature. GM controlled raid calendars might have happened, but they were without a doubt a very small minority across most of the servers. Calling it a "classic experience" for most would be a large stretch. Most of the time, solutions were found in either "work it out or you're going to /ran 100 for the mob". If it was after the fact, simple FTE normally ruled the day. There wasn't any huge investigation beyond that most times because FRAPs wasn't considered evidence, and GMs only watched raids if they REALLY had nothing else to do or had been previously called.

That's, imo, what made it work. It was simple for the GMs to enforce and the players got to decide if they wanted to work it out or act like children and make their own lives miserable. And not a lot of people wanted GM intervention unless they genuinely thought they had been a legit KSing beef.

I firmly believe that competition is just as important as cooperation in this game. Keeping as much of both those intact is of vital importance and a balance must be struck. GM controlled raid calendars and complete FFA are extreme solutions that are not in the best interest of the server. Instancing is so far removed from being "classic" I have absolutely no worries about it ever being implemented here, I'm not even going to get into it (read even just one or two of the "why you left Live threads", LDoN and instancing are pretty popular reasons in those threads).

Because, that's ultimately what community based game is about. Player control, competition, cooperation, with as little GM enforcement as possible to ensure some basic rules are enforced in the most simple way possible.

If the community wants to act like children or waste their lives spawn camping, then that's up to them. Or they can grow up or work something out. But it shouldn't be the GM's responsibility to dictate how the community interacts with each other beyond some very, very simple anti-griefing rules because well - it's the easiest, most effective, and most classic solution.

[jimthayner]

Well, this could go either way. But removing all GM intervention would be like getting rid of all the cops in town, thinking that "well, with people killing each other and stealing shit, they'll eventually just realize how stupid it is to murder each other/steal from each other and they'll all agree to stop."

One of the best inventions to MMOs was instanced raid zones for each raid group.

Bring on the flame posts.

[Daldaen]

If you're concerned about DPS groups ksing, then enable the raid tool. Let guilds form a raid have their DPS work as a single entity. If two guilds get to the mob at the same time whichever raid does more DPS wins the loot. Don't retort with bs of "no more cleric or tanks recruited". Because that is simply untrue guilds still have uncontested raids very often when they need those mobs.

[Felwithemagi]

That would work better on PvP. If people insist on behaving like children just enforce a rotation.

[stormlord]

A world without GM's making sure people are playing fairly is interesting and doable, but very discouraging for most.

I played on Sullon Zek during live. High levels routinely were killing low levels, but not always. Anyway, there was no GM intervention at all. People did train each other. Sullon Zek probably had the lowest population of all servers. In fact, I'm certain it did. That was because of frequent griefing, a bad economy that lagged behind every other server, and there were no GM's. Nonetheless, I liked the atmosphere. But it's not practical for most users.

Maybe you're right, but I think you underestimate how many people would use this to grief others. I don't think you can compare a work environment to EQ, either. Players won't hold themselves to the same standard.

Remember, it only takes a few sociopaths or pscyhopaths to ruin the fun. That's why RL is not fun because most of us know the truth: sociopaths and psychopaths have hacked this world. But games were made for fun. By not having any rules and allowing players to do as they please, you set the monsters loose and the game will no longer be fun for most. When a game isn't fun, it's no longer a game. This is why pvp without rules is not liked by most players.

I was able to enjoy Sullon Zek because it didn't bother me that sociopaths mostly ruled the game. I didn't care how long it took me to level up or how expensive things were. At the time, it felt like an experiment. It felt like I might learn something about RL by playing. I also played because it was different. I felt like my choices were more meaningful too - i tried to be a good guy and not profit on other's losses. It's hard to explain, but it's the truth. It wasn't always fun.

Just picture yourself in a group and they're talking about running through a zone and slaying the noobs. They were all laughing. I was sick to my stomach. It felt wrong. I stopped after that. I stayed away from pvp the vast majority of the time. Used what I knew to escape rather than fight. On that server you quickly learned whether you could stomach pvp or not. Pvp on SZ was real... it was not staged or planned. Players could grief you without punishment.

[citizen1080]

Bob...my perfect would is: You, Me, 500mil plat, a private isle, and a private airline to ship out goods people buy over the forums.


I miss thee!


Inventory: xxxxxxxxx Plat, 192 Gold, 54 Silver, 0 Copper
[Mon Mar 28 01:46:39 2011] You say, '#summon irbob'
[Mon Mar 28 01:46:40 2011] Summoning irbob to ecommons 741.7, -1356.0, 2.5
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:19 2011] Meccus says, 'GM ?''
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:34 2011] You say, 'NO....'
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:37 2011] You say, '#name Bob'
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:38 2011] Successfully renamed Irbob to Bob
[Mon Mar 28 01:47:38 2011] Sending player to char select.
[1 Monk] Bob (Iksar) <The Syndicate> ZONE: ecommons


Thus created Bob the Iksar, summoned to ec, and renamed.


<3 forever documented!

<3 Sir !

I hope you got that shank I sent to you at Shawshank Prison in that phallus shaped cake. Gotta protect my dorf!



A world without GM's making sure people are playing fairly is interesting and doable, but extremely discouraging for the general user.

I played on Sullon Zek during live. High levels routinely were killing low levels, but not always. Anyway, there was no GM intervention at all. People did train each other. Sullon Zek probably had the lowest population of all servers. In fact, I'm certain it did. That was because of frequent griefing, a bad economy that lagged behind every other server, and there were no GM's. Nonetheless, I liked the atmosphere. But it's not practical for most users.

Maybe you're right, but I think you underestimate how many people would use this to grief others. I don't think you can compare a work environment to EQ, either. Players don't hold themselves to the same standard.

I agree with you and previous posters saying that an absolute lack of GM intervention on the server would lead to Anarchy. However my OP was targeted at raid encounters only. Fear,Hate,Sky all would be "Get Along, or Get the Fuck Out" more or less. World spawn dragons would be handled in a similar way.

I agree that the internet brings out the worst in people as a whole. The total lack of RL consequences makes even the biggest coward 6'5" and 250lbs. You call me a dickhole to my face and I'll feed you your teeth. You do it over the internet and well...not much I can do.

However, when people are not getting their daily dose of raid loot pixels due to another guild training them and vice vs I really do feel that whether they like it or not they will have to learn to work together and play nice. Otherwise no one get shits. And while all this raid drama goes on...98% of the server keeps on rolling having fun and getting even better customer service than before from the GMs because they aren't pulling out their hair listening to one whiny bitch after another in PoH.

The less rules in place the less ways shifty players can abuse them and or abuse loopholes regarding those rules. Keep it simple stupid.

[Lazortag]

In my new perfect world there are no GM interventions. You don't like Guild Z training your shit? Train them back. For awhile its going to be a cluster fuck of trains. RnF will actually be worth reading again.

However, in the long run while this shitstorm is going on the intelligent players are going to realize, "shit man....we haven't killed anything worthwhile in weeks....all we do is train each other"

I have a problem with the assumption that every guild would train in retaliation. I'm pretty sure divinity wouldn't resort to that, nor would a lot of other guilds, which means that this kind of system would just allow the guilds with the bigger douchebags to take advantage of the guilds with nice people in them. And that sucks.

I also take issue with the assumption that people would just commonly realize how stupid and futile it is to continue on such a shitstorm, because it assumes that players are all rational actors who would do what's in their best interest. This is just empirically false though, since players are willing to poopsock, which is not rational and is in no one's interest.

[Zereh]

The less rules in place the less ways shifty players can abuse them and or abuse loopholes regarding those rules. Keep it simple stupid.

[Motec]

I dont think people want to experience a world where there is no rules.

You have no seen what people who can play 50 hours straight repeatedly are capable of when they want to ruin your day.

Pull your heads in. Rules are good.

What's missing is respect, and guides/gm's who understand classic raiding.

[Beauregard]

/guildwar please.

[Taminy]

1. Get rid of the variance

2. Make it FTE

3. Players will realize that socking (even if offline) or stay up until/waking up at 5:00am just to get a 1/6 shot at even getting the kill is stupid

4. In light of #3, guilds will make a rotation

5. ???

6. PROFIT

[YendorLootmonkey]

3. Players will realize that socking (even if offline) or stay up until/waking up at 5:00am just to get a 1/6 shot at even getting the kill is stupid

This happens now, since both guilds doing this are relentless about making sure the other guild does not get "their" target. I don't see either backing down. They will just rely on more frequent tracker rotations to get the job done. They've perfected the art of poopsocking.

[Taminy]

This happens now, since both guilds doing this are relentless about making sure the other guild does not get "their" target. I don't see either backing down. They will just rely on more frequent tracker rotations to get the job done. They've perfected the art of poopsocking.

Poopsocking for 1/2 shot >>>> poopsocking for 1/6 shot

[soup]

The management should just be way more willing to dick around with the high end raiders (who make up a minority on the server) whenever they act like douches.

Massive clusterfuck about who gets to kill a mob? Guess what, the mob had it's loot stripped, have fun fighting each other to loot the items that Trakanon didn't drop. Large arguments about who trained who? Guess what? You all got ported to the middle of the ocean in OOT. Racing back to train each other some more? Enjoy the DTs.

This would free up GM time spent listening to man-children do rule lawyering, while also letting the GMs have some fun. Double win for the management.

[Dravingar]

Massive clusterfuck about who gets to kill a mob? Guess what, the mob had it's loot stripped, have fun fighting each other to loot the items that Trakanon didn't drop.

Rival guild clearly gets FTE so you run in and attack it and claim FTE, they get loot taken away from them. GG

[YendorLootmonkey]

Poopsocking for 1/2 shot >>>> poopsocking for 1/6 shot

Where do you get 1/6 shot? Only two guilds would be insane enough to poopsock through no variance. Oddly enough, it is the same two guilds insane enough to poopsock through any variance. The rest of us are like "F that... not worth it..."

[Dravingar]

Where do you get 1/6 shot? Only two guilds would be insane enough to poopsock through no variance. Oddly enough, it is the same two guilds insane enough to poopsock through any variance. The rest of us are like "F that... not worth it..."

No variance just means you don't have to poopsock unless they count the 15 man rule again(not sure if that's still around or not TBH). Log in 45 minutes before it spawns, run to mob, sit on spawn spamming f8, /target macros and spamming a hammer and hope for the best.

[soup]

Rival guild clearly gets FTE so you run in and attack it and claim FTE, they get loot taken away from them. GG

So in other words, you didn't understand what I said even a tiny bit, lol

The entire point was giving GMs far more discretion to just dick around with people who act like douchebags, yet you tried to interpret as some kind of additional rules to be rule lawyered. The entire point is to make rule lawyering never in anyone's best interests.

[YendorLootmonkey]

No variance just means you don't have to poopsock unless they count the 15 man rule again(not sure if that's still around or not TBH). Log in 45 minutes before it spawns, run to mob, sit on spawn spamming f8, /target macros and spamming a hammer and hope for the best.

"Why are there 450 people in Sebilis??? Oh, Trak's due in 14.5 minutes."

Gotcha.

Hell, in that case, it'll be way worse than 1 out of 6 chance. Peace Pipe could run in there with 15 people and try for FTE. By the time the other 435 people reduce Trak to hoop dust within seconds of it spawning and wait for the GM to verify FTE, you may as well just random Trak's loot to whoever's present in the lair every three days. At least have the raid target shout the first aggro it has so the other people there stop attacking and let whatever guild got FTE go through with the fight since they've claimed their attempt on it.

[Taminy]

No variance just means you don't have to poopsock unless they count the 15 man rule again(not sure if that's still around or not TBH). Log in 45 minutes before it spawns, run to mob, sit on spawn spamming f8, /target macros and spamming a hammer and hope for the best.

Exactly.

And there are at least 4 guilds/alliances that could kill trak.

TR

TMO

(of course)

Then Divinity/Taken/BDA/VD

Maybe solo each of them or two of them banded together. And if it's FTE he's likely going to die no matter what anyway.

[Dravingar]

"Why are there 450 people in Sebilis??? Oh, Trak's due in 14.5 minutes."

Gotcha.

It would of happened last time if Salty didn't bail out. I was really hoping for a massive clusterfuck.

[Nivar Quartz]

Yes I know...another thread on raiding on p99 and all the bullshit it involves. Sorry :)

In my opinion,

Seems like the most simple and elegant solution possible, something Devs can implement today which really would bring back that "classic feel", is ZERO gm interference for raid targets.

Guild X is going for CT, Guild Z Trains the shit outta them so they are unable to kill CT.

Normal scenario = Petitions, whining, bitching, GM intervention, suspensions, one guild getting loot over another, RnF posts, whining, bitching. Rinse and Repeat.


In my new perfect world there are no GM interventions. You don't like Guild Z training your shit? Train them back. For awhile its going to be a cluster fuck of trains. RnF will actually be worth reading again.

However, in the long run while this shitstorm is going on the intelligent players are going to realize, "shit man....we haven't killed anything worthwhile in weeks....all we do is train each other"

Once they realize this things should start to change, guild alliances, raid rotations, Big guilds letting small guilds help kill raid targets and getting to pick one item of loot off boss?! PEOPLE BEHAVING LIKE ADULTS!!?

Let the guilds police themselves. 99% of the server doesn't give a shit if Guild Z is Training Guild X in Fear. It does not effect us, we do not give a shit.

Spend your time fixing bugs, helping players with real issues and let the raid scene police its self.

The entire raid scene will deadlock if every time someone gets ready to kill Trak another guild trains them till they give up.

My option will FORCE guilds to play nice and free up DEV and GM time since they wont have to deal with the bullshit.


Not that anyone cares but, I am in Management at UPS. I learned a long time ago that if you treat your employees like children, always involving yourself every time they have the smallest issue, they will behave exactly like children. And I spent more time babysitting them than getting my work done.

However, if you treat them like intelligent adults and make them solve their own issues suddenly they have brains and are able to figure out most issues for themselves. Now a days I could not even show up to work and everything would be done and done correctly because I have a crew of people who think for themselves instead of a crew of children always looking to me to fix things.

I will admit I did not do much raiding Pre Velious and I have done ZERO raiding on P99, mostly due to not wanting to deal with all the bullshit here.

However, I think the P99 staff needs to step back and learn from my mistakes. Treat the players like adults and let the guilds police themselves and I think you will be pleasantly surprised in the long run.

-----

I'm a driver for UPS Bob, and by your Management admission, you sir cannot be trusted period :)

[YendorLootmonkey]

And if it's FTE he's likely going to die no matter what anyway.

You shout, "pop!"
Trakanon claws Yendor for 34 points of damage!
Yendor has been slain!
.
.
(100+ lines of lifetap damage reporting and melee within 1 second)
.
.
Trakanon has been slain by Jabober.
Amelinda says, "Well, that was quick. It's just easier if a representative from each guild with 15+ here /random 100 and I'll award the trak loot to that guild."

[Haunter]

In my perfect world we wouldn't have Bob like fucks buying up and hording certain items on market to mark up the face value.

[Dravingar]

You shout, "pop!"
Trakanon claws Yendor for 34 points of damage!
Yendor has been slain!
.
.
(100+ lines of lifetap damage reporting and melee within 1 second)
.
.
Trakanon has been slain by Jabober.
Amelinda says, "Well, that was quick. It's just easier if a representative from each guild with 15+ here /random 100 and I'll award the trak loot to that guild."

That's exactly why no variance won't ever work on this server, there are too many former high end players. I think the best bet would be a the normal variance but with the mob shouting the first person to get on the aggro list so everyone knows FTE instantly and can react accordingly. It would solve about 85% of the raid disputes.

INB4 not classic.

[Hoggen]

These scenarios don't take into consideration "spoilers" either: people that will train for the fun of it that are not in any guild that could take down the mob.

I played in classic. We raced to mobs (no complete guild poopsocking that I knew of) and we trained each other, and people whined and petitioned and all that good stuff. Everyone got their share. But this server is different. Everyone knows everything there is to know about the game. The content is stagnant for two, three, maybe four times the length it was on live. I don't raid here, but given what I've read, I don't think I'd ever want to.

[Xatava]

All it will take for your perfect world plan to fall apart is one random guildless retard per raiding zone to train anyone who tries to raid it. This might work on a pvp server. It worked on Sullon-Zek. It will not work here.

If the devs / GMs actually want people playing nice in regards to raid targets they should set up an official raid calendar like there were on live servers back in the day and force everyone on the server to abide by it. Is it a perfect solution? Probably not, but that's what it took on live.

[Lazortag]

That's exactly why no variance won't ever work on this server, there are too many former high end players. I think the best bet would be a the normal variance but with the mob shouting the first person to get on the aggro list so everyone knows FTE instantly and can react accordingly. It would solve about 85% of the raid disputes.

INB4 not classic.

I don't understand your reasoning. I guess you think that the greater number of high end players means that a rotation would spread the loot too thinly. I don't see why (a) that's really such a bad thing or (b) why it's preferable to have a system that privileges people who are willing to hit the track button every 30 seconds for 96 hours straight, or worse, parking their guild on a spawn point/in the same zone as a raid mob. The last time I thought it would be a good idea to track a raid mob that was in window, a certain guild had 30 members in the zone at all times (when the zone's population was maybe 40-50 on average). What you're saying is basically that the people who have no lives whatsoever should be able to get 90% of the raid mobs, while other guilds can't enjoy the same content because they're unwilling to stoop as low as them.

You can set up a rotation that's still meritocratic anyway - just award attempts at mobs to guilds who have killed the mob in the past, except patch day repops are ffa. Penalize guilds who wipe by giving their attempt to the guild who's next on the list. Everyone would benefit from this; the hardcore guilds could get their lives back and the less hardcore guilds would get more chances at mobs.

[Dravingar]

I don't understand your reasoning. I guess you think that the greater number of high end players means that a rotation would spread the loot too thinly. I don't see why (a) that's really such a bad thing or (b) why it's preferable to have a system that privileges people who are willing to hit the track button every 30 seconds for 96 hours straight, or worse, parking their guild on a spawn point/in the same zone as a raid mob. The last time I thought it would be a good idea to track a raid mob that was in window, a certain guild had 30 members in the zone at all times (when the zone's population was maybe 40-50 on average). What you're saying is basically that the people who have no lives whatsoever should be able to get 90% of the raid mobs, while other guilds can't enjoy the same content because they're unwilling to stoop as low as them.

Welcome to Online video games, Time = Rewards. Get your marxist ass outta here.

[Xatava]

Welcome to Online video games, Time = Rewards. Get your marxist ass outta here.

Some of us are under the impression that it's supposed to be Skill = Rewards

[soup]

I don't understand your reasoning. I guess you think that the greater number of high end players means that a rotation would spread the loot too thinly. I don't see why (a) that's really such a bad thing or (b) why it's preferable to have a system that privileges people who are willing to hit the track button every 30 seconds for 96 hours straight, or worse, parking their guild on a spawn point/in the same zone as a raid mob. The last time I thought it would be a good idea to track a raid mob that was in window, a certain guild had 30 members in the zone at all times (when the zone's population was maybe 40-50 on average). What you're saying is basically that the people who have no lives whatsoever should be able to get 90% of the raid mobs, while other guilds can't enjoy the same content because they're unwilling to stoop as low as them.

You can set up a rotation that's still meritocratic anyway - just award attempts at mobs to guilds who have killed the mob in the past, except patch day repops are ffa. Penalize guilds who wipe by giving their attempt to the guild who's next on the list. Everyone would benefit from this; the hardcore guilds could get their lives back and the less hardcore guilds would get more chances at mobs.

The free market can solve it. The people who have interesting things going on in their lives aren't going to care as much about the loot as the people who live for EQ, so the ones who care enough about pointless crap get the loot.

Free market solves it.

[Mcbard]

Some of us are under the impression that it's supposed to be Skill = Rewards

That's not how EQ works! Preparation + time investment = rewards. In some situations skill will determine it, but pre-instancing(when did that start anyway, LDoN?) whoever knows boss timers and is the most prepared is most likely going to reap the rewards of EQ raiding.

[Foxx]

I agree that the internet brings out the worst in people as a whole. The total lack of RL consequences makes even the biggest coward 6'5" and 250lbs. You call me a dickhole to my face and I'll feed you your teeth. You do it over the internet and well...not much I can do.


lol ya bro who is the internet tuff guy here??? stop makin threats we all know ur fat

[Nivar Quartz]

Dragon/God rotations are as classic as it gets, we had one on brell that worked pretty sporty till later expansions spread most guilds out pretty good.

1. Current raiding guilds apply to Gm to be added to list

2. Once on list, you have 24hrs after mob pop to kill said mob

3. You can get help from alliance guild/s to kill said mob, but you have to provide 70/30 ratio. So 40 TMO cant help 15 Div, if you cant bring the numbers your turn in skipped and the counsel will determine whether your guild should remain on the list.

4. Once your 24hrs is up, your back to the bottom of the list and the next guild is on the clock, and this counts as that guilds turn.

This would support a sense of teamwork between more guilds and deals could be struck for teeth ect when helping a few smaller guilds take their turns on bigger mobs like trak ect.

This would also take the poopsocking and need for 48hr trackers out of the process and mob windows and pop times would be posted for all counsel member to see and follow.

Of course there are other considerations that a strong guild counsel would guideline in advance, and present to Gms as said rules all are to follow.

This is just a crude example and I've seen a few floating around that would get a bit complicated and problems would arise in the language.

Last but not least, if 90% of guilds involved voted and agreed for this concept, there would be no reason for the server staff to not implement this as it takes 99% of Gm babysitting and grieving out of the equation

[Nivar Quartz]

lol ya bro who is the internet tuff guy here??? stop makin threats we all know ur fat

Btw Foxx, 6'5" 250pds is hardly fat.

[mokfarg]

GMs just need to make a rotation sign up on the website and be done with it. Like others said, there could be rewards and penalties on whether or not you succeed or wipe.

If rotation is broke, then the guild that breaks it pays the consequence of being taken out of rotation for a time period or permanently. Just do it and end all of the whining.

[Taminy]

INB4 not classic.

That's not how EQ works! Preparation + time investment = rewards. In some situations skill will determine it, but pre-instancing(when did that start anyway, LDoN?) whoever knows boss timers and is the most prepared is most likely going to reap the rewards of EQ raiding.

Not classic though :D:D

[citizen1080]

I'm a driver for UPS Bob, and by your Management admission, you sir cannot be trusted period :)


Teamster Scum!


:D:D:D

[citizen1080]

lol ya bro who is the internet tuff guy here??? stop makin threats we all know ur fat

Make a useful post that does not incorporate; pvp, wipe it clean, or a insult. Come at me bro

[Dravingar]

GMs just need to make a rotation sign up on the website and be done with it. Like others said, there could be rewards and penalties on whether or not you succeed or wipe.

If rotation is broke, then the guild that breaks it pays the consequence of being taken out of rotation for a time period or permanently. Just do it and end all of the whining.

What would the rules be on level 60 alt raid guilds? Would they be exempt or are they allowed to be on the rotation because all it will take is people leveling up/buying alts to have multiple armies/guilds and still be able to effectively make getting trakanon impossible still.

Plus, rotations are beyond dumb.

[Nivar Quartz]

Teamster Scum!


:D:D:D

Is there a grievance for forum abuse?

[Mcbard]

Not classic though :D:D

Knowing boss timers is very classic sir! I still remember the threads on my guilds old forums where we all kept them updated. The thing there was that knowing the timers was a bigger advantage than it is here, because there weren't as many hardcore people hellbent on getting every mob 24/7 like we all are here. There we mainly kept track of the hardest mobs, and if we felt like doing anything else we just checked to see if they were up and if so killed them. =p

[Nivar Quartz]

What would the rules be on level 60 alt raid guilds? Would they be exempt or are they allowed to be on the rotation because all it will take is people leveling up/buying alts to have multiple armies/guilds and still be able to effectively make getting trakanon impossible still.

Plus, rotations are beyond dumb.

This is the normal response from the top/top2 guilds at the inception of a rotation, and common sense through a solid rotation counsel would most surely shun attempts for alt < Sudden new raiding guilds > from exploiting the system, people/guilds will try to buck the system at first, but with solid leadership and agendas left at the door it would work perfectly.

[Xatava]

That's not how EQ works! Preparation + time investment = rewards. In some situations skill will determine it, but pre-instancing(when did that start anyway, LDoN?) whoever knows boss timers and is the most prepared is most likely going to reap the rewards of EQ raiding.

Do you honestly believe what you're typing?. You think Ivandyr's Hoop races are the true classic experience and not raid calendars? What server did you play on and in what guild where this was the standard procedure?

[citizen1080]

Is there a grievance for forum abuse?

I left my Union Bible at work, I'll check tomorrow for you.

[citizen1080]

The Trade Fed + Me for Raid counsel. We too busy selling the loot to care about who is actually killing the mobs. We are impartial, fair, trustworthy and will charge you a mere 10% of all raid loot for our trouble :D

[Taminy]

Knowing boss timers is very classic sir! I still remember the threads on my guilds old forums where we all kept them updated. The thing there was that knowing the timers was a bigger advantage than it is here, because there weren't as many hardcore people hellbent on getting every mob 24/7 like we all are here. There we mainly kept track of the hardest mobs, and if we felt like doing anything else we just checked to see if they were up and if so killed them. =p

Missed my point. No variance = everyone knows timers = more competition.

[Mcbard]

Do you honestly believe what you're typing?. You think Ivandyr's Hoop races are the true classic experience and not raid calendars? What server did you play on and in what guild where this was the standard procedure?

No, Ivandyr's Hoops need nerfed we all know that. That's really just one example that you singled out though so I'll go ahead and list some more an answer them.

In regards to preperation:
The best guild had resist gears sets: check
The best guild knew when important mobs spawned: check
The best guild had strategies to mobilize for these spawns: check
The best guild had people dedicated to playing the game more and being ready to drop what they were doing to kill dragons: check
The best guild overall cared and spent more time worrying about these dragons: check

Now in regards to how raids went down..
There was a rotation: Hahahahaha, no.
There was a TON of training: check
There was a lot of nefarious raid strategies used: check (LET THEM WEAKEN IT)
There was massive cockblocking for content, especially over keyed zones: check
There were often the one or 2 top guilds trying to kill mobs in the zone at the same time, and fighting tooth and nail over stuff: check

I played on Tarew-Marr btw! And I was in a lot of guilds. Everything I just described was in the past. It's already far more carebear on this server than it ever was on mine!

[Mcbard]

Missed my point. No variance = everyone knows timers = more competition.

I'm not even sure what your point was or that you had one.. I never read your post/wasn't talking to you. :P I was just saying that what I said was classic since you said it wasn't. What are you trying to say? That you don't like variance because it isn't classic? I agree! :)

[Taminy]

I'm not even sure what your point was or that you had one.. I never read your post/wasn't talking to you. :P I was just saying that what I said was classic since you said it wasn't. What are you trying to say? That you don't like variance because it isn't classic? I agree! :)

Then why did you quote me?

Yes I don't like variance because it's not classic. And no you misinterpreted what I said, I never meant to say that guilds did not know the actual ToD on live. Of course they did. Knowing ToD on p1999 is fairly irrelevant though, at least for Trak. TMO and TR waiting on the ledge? Ok he's in window. If a third guild wanted to poopsock they easily could just by seeing you're there :p But again on live Trak wasn't poopsocked. He was either on a rotation or guilds fought over him with training and other nonsense.

[Mcbard]

Then why did you quote me?

Yes I don't like variance because it's not classic. And no you misinterpreted what I said, I never meant to say that guilds did not know the actual ToD on live. Of course they did. Knowing ToD on p1999 is fairly irrelevant though, at least for Trak. TMO and TR waiting on the ledge? Ok he's in window. If a third guild wanted to poopsock they easily could just by seeing you're there :p

What? I replied to Xant... then you quoted me and said "Not classic Though".. and then I quoted you and said basically "ya it is!" and then you told me I missed your point about how variance wasn't classic (which my post had nothing to do with nor had you previously mentioned in this chain of events) to which I replied telling you I have no idea what your point is, AND HERE WE ARE. :D

Now you're talking about somebody seeing that Trak's in Window. I don't know what's going on here, I'm going to go play LoL. :(

[Frieza_Prexus]

I played on Prexus which had a complex and well-enforced rotation system, so I'd like to think I speak from a reasonably informed position.

Rotations are sustainable only between guilds. Prexus' rotations came down because a council enforced them, they grew to absurd size (15+ guilds on VS), and people finally had enough. If rotations of any type were used here, they'd have to be fairly limited in scope and would likely only be agreements between TR & TMO. They'd probably be something like 5 hours of uncontested rights to that mob by the other guild. Divinity, BDA, VD, etc., not being part of the agreement, could snipe the mob which must be defended by TR or TMO. The only way a 3rd (or 4th) guild could get into the agreement would be to snipe enough kills from both guilds so that they'd acquiesce. Given this server's history, I find it unlikely that a 3rd guild could be that much of a thorn rendering this tangent academic.

Whenever I hear people bring up rotations here they seem to always assume that it's all or nothing. That the GM's must be involved, that just anyone can apply, and that all mobs must be on it. A rotation is simply one tool used to reduce (not eliminate) certain aspects of competition to give the human beings behind the keyboard breathing room.

I strongly doubt we'll have a rotation for anything other than VP (see below), and we probably shouldn't. Despite TR/TMO clashes, most of the current content is actually handled reasonably well.

Regarding VP, this will depend largely upon how the variance is implemented inside the zone. I personally dread the idea that a full 7 day 48 hour variance will be in effect in VP. The zone is difficult to get into and out of. Characters will be forced to camp inside the zone for weeks at a time at all hours of the day 24/7. That will lead to some damned fast burn out.

Rotations are a balancing act between the fun of racing, and the not-fun of being on call 24/7. I think the mechanics of VP lend themselves exceptionally well to a diplomatic solution, and I would be exceptionally pleased if the leadership of both TR and TMO recognized that and agreed to trade off that zone and only that zone. Hell, you could even make Phara`Dar separate. If by some miracle a gentleman's agreement was reached for VP, the devs could even eliminate the variance for that zone and make it all repop at the same time or something like that.

TLDR: Rotations fail when they're allowed to become just as convoluted and stupid as a pure FFA situation. There is a real middle ground to be had, and I am hopeful that the leadership of both TR and TMO recognizes this.

-Xasten

[Lazortag]

What would the rules be on level 60 alt raid guilds? Would they be exempt or are they allowed to be on the rotation because all it will take is people leveling up/buying alts to have multiple armies/guilds and still be able to effectively make getting trakanon impossible still.

Plus, rotations are beyond dumb.

Like I said, the easiest way to work around this is to allow guilds to rotate on mobs that they've already killed before, except on server repops. Really server repops are the only way of meritocratically determining what guilds are worthy of killing certain bosses since they're unpredictable and require actual mobilization (as opposed to sitting on spawn points or having your entire guild camped out near a raid mob).

[Nivar Quartz]

I played on Prexus which had a complex and well-enforced rotation system, so I'd like to think I speak from a reasonably informed position.

Rotations are sustainable only between guilds. Prexus' rotations came down because a council enforced them, they grew to absurd size (15+ guilds on VS), and people finally had enough. If rotations of any type were used here, they'd have to be fairly limited in scope and would likely only be agreements between TR & TMO. They'd probably be something like 5 hours of uncontested rights to that mob by the other guild. Divinity, BDA, VD, etc., not being part of the agreement, could snipe the mob which must be defended by TR or TMO. The only way a 3rd (or 4th) guild could get into the agreement would be to snipe enough kills from both guilds so that they'd acquiesce. Given this server's history, I find it unlikely that a 3rd guild could be that much of a thorn rendering this tangent academic.

Whenever I hear people bring up rotations here they seem to always assume that it's all or nothing. That the GM's must be involved, that just anyone can apply, and that all mobs must be on it. A rotation is simply one tool used to reduce (not eliminate) certain aspects of competition to give the human beings behind the keyboard breathing room.

I strongly doubt we'll have a rotation for anything other than VP (see below), and we probably shouldn't. Despite TR/TMO clashes, most of the current content is actually handled reasonably well.

Regarding VP, this will depend largely upon how the variance is implemented inside the zone. I personally dread the idea that a full 7 day 48 hour variance will be in effect in VP. The zone is difficult to get into and out of. Characters will be forced to camp inside the zone for weeks at a time at all hours of the day 24/7. That will lead to some damned fast burn out.

Rotations are a balancing act between the fun of racing, and the not-fun of being on call 24/7. I think the mechanics of VP lend themselves exceptionally well to a diplomatic solution, and I would be exceptionally pleased if the leadership of both TR and TMO recognized that and agreed to trade off that zone and only that zone. Hell, you could even make Phara`Dar separate. If by some miracle a gentleman's agreement was reached for VP, the devs could even eliminate the variance for that zone and make it all repop at the same time or something like that.

TLDR: Rotations fail when they're allowed to become just as convoluted and stupid as a pure FFA situation. There is a real middle ground to be had, and I am hopeful that the leadership of both TR and TMO recognizes this.

-Xasten

This is exactly what I mean by making the rules to complicated, keeping things simple and followed to a "T" is the only way it would work here, muddying up the rotation rules is just the same as grieving. anything under 12-24 hrs is unreasonable for a legit rotation that would have staying power, enless a few certain guilds start thinking selfishly because the mob is sitting up and they can put up the numbers to kill it right that second. An easy answer for said guild if a rotation is set up is sorry, check the list and contact that guild rep for more details, or be on your way.

Also, a rotation for VP really isnt needed, TR and TMO have a massive head start on keys and key classes needed to enter and clear, so that part of the rotation discussion would be in the rotation counsel but obviously those 2 would determine what they wanted to do, in or out of counsel.

[Frieza_Prexus]

My point is that rotations are sustainable when the only ones who can police it are the guilds on the rotation.

If A and B rotate, say Trak, and C snipes the mob on B's turn. Too bad so sad for B. The rotation was only between A and B as a private agreement. The moment you start trying to sanction C is when it all just falls apart. If C wants on the rotation, it needs to make life miserable for both A and B so that they'd actually be willing to rotate the target.

[Duie]

What would the rules be on level 60 alt raid guilds? Would they be exempt or are they allowed to be on the rotation because all it will take is people leveling up/buying alts to have multiple armies/guilds and still be able to effectively make getting trakanon impossible still.

Plus, rotations are beyond dumb.

How is rotation bullshit if it slows progression down, Eleviates burnout turnover and minumizes GM intervention?

Is it only bullshit because you guys would accually have to start caring about the rest of the servers population to get what you want?

i guess I as many others on P99 were not on a "classic" server in your eyes

look at it like this. If We in the Semi Casual raiding guilds allied together to force a rotation. what could you do about it? before you answer that, check the numbers of VD,Divinity, BDA, And Taken. Right now it is not to our best intrest to poopsock ,But if thats what it takes to get you guys to start talking, well We out number Both TMO and TR in manpower, Timezone and Telephones. and Im not just talking Trak either.

And To be Fair TR is the only guild that comes into a zone and tells everyone else to get out. TMO (in most cases) comes in and tries to atleast come up w/ a comprimise to get what they want.

[Nivar Quartz]

My point is that rotations are sustainable when the only ones who can police it are the guilds on the rotation.

If A and B rotate, say Trak, and C snipes the mob on B's turn. Too bad so sad for B. The rotation was only between A and B as a private agreement. The moment you start trying to sanction C is when it all just falls apart. If C wants on the rotation, it needs to make life miserable for both A and B so that they'd actually be willing to rotate the target.

That's why the groundwork is layed and rules are formed, a counsel of not just A and B guilds is formed, but many trusted members of our community, and these/this agreement is set in stone ie server rules. I believe on Brell if a guild jumped over the list and killed a mob, they lost 1 complete turn in the rotation for a first offense, So if you were 3 away on the list, you lost that turn and another entire rotation before being added to the bottom of the list again. A decent penalty for a first offense, and don't overlook guild counsel and normal guild policing either.

If said guild decides they dont want to adhere to the rotation anymore, well your basiclly shit out of luck without a majority vote to overturn the rotation and Gm's changing the ruleset back to FFA.

Its really not complicated at all, egos need to be checked at the door, some guilds without alliance help will not be able to maintain there spots on the rotation, things have a way of working themselves out quickly. Really the most important part of the rotation is the guild counsel, its integrity and GM support after its followed through with.

[Frieza_Prexus]

If the GM's enforce the rotation that's one thing. I don't suspect that will happen here, but I could be wrong.

Sanctions do not work if one guild wants to hop a "community-enforced" rotation. How do I know? Because I was an officer in the guild that toppled the rotations on my server. The merits of our actions at the time aside, community outrage and other guilds had little to no effect on us.

[Autotune]

Only way there would be a rotation is if it is on VP.

Then it would just be an agreement between TMO and TR.

From everything i've seen by TR and some by TMO, that shit isn't happening. People are greedy and will do whatever it takes to spite that other guildtag.

I will just quit playing before I camp a character 24/7 in VP because every mob has a Variance. Fuck that competition and those pixels.

Pretty much if VP doesn't all spawn at once, I'm not even going to be excited about it. Just more BS to have to deal with. If TR wanted to do a rotation for VP, i wouldn't care. Will they want to work any kind of agreement out? seriously doubtful. After all, they don't feel the need to come to an agreement about mobs they consider "already TR's"

[Dravingar]

look at it like this. If We in the Semi Casual raiding guilds allied together to force a rotation. what could you do about it? before you answer that, check the numbers of VD,Divinity, BDA, And Taken. Right now it is not to our best intrest to poopsock ,But if thats what it takes to get you guys to start talking, well We out number Both TMO and TR in manpower, Timezone and Telephones. and Im not just talking Trak either.

And To be Fair TR is the only guild that comes into a zone and tells everyone else to get out. TMO (in most cases) comes in and tries to atleast come up w/ a comprimise to get what they want.

A) Do it, I would love to see TR or TMO get our shit stomped in by a casual uprising, but you and I both know it's never gonna happen. You all have lives/GF's/Ferraris/Cocaine that are more important.

B)TR has never gone into a zone and demanded people to leave. We might say something about us pulling a mob and to be careful to not die to it.

[Nivar Quartz]

Again, once more, this isn't just about TR and TMO. the list would comprise of about 5-7 raiding guilds over Sev, Tal, Gor, Trak, CT, Draco, Inny, maybe Fay, Vox and Naggy on a minor sub list.

The only reason TR and TMO wouldn't agree to a rotation is really elitist attitudes and really not caring about overall server health in general, not meaning to be rude to either guild, but tell me some other reason with common sense facts and I'll take those statements back.

If you came up on a non rotation server, this rotation probably sounds dumb, but i'm sure you've seen the ramifications of poopsocking, training, rule lawyering ect. How many guilds really could be on the list?

Tr
TMO
Taken
Divinity
VD
BDA
Miscief?

Sorry if i left anyone off, its late.


And honestly, as cool as it would be for the last 5 to be able to tooth and gear up for VP, its not even in consideration in this discussion, so just drop the VP talk.

Another thing to consider is if when guilds like Tr and TMO work out rotation alliances, they are also gearing key classes and friends in other guilds to help them in VP like clerics, DPS, ect. Food for thought really, your long term goals could be advanced alot smoother with an rotation at this point.

[Autotune]

Again, once more, this isn't just about TR and TMO. the list would comprise of about 5-7 raiding guilds over Sev, Tal, Gor, Trak, CT, Draco, Inny, maybe Fay, Vox and Naggy on a minor sub list.

The only reason TR and TMO wouldn't agree to a rotation is really elitist attitudes and really not caring about overall server health in general, not meaning to be rude to either guild, but tell me some other reason with common sense facts and I'll take those statements back.

If you came up on a non rotation server, this rotation probably sounds dumb, but i'm sure you've seen the ramifications of poopsocking, training, rule lawyering ect. How many guilds really could be on the list?

Tr
TMO
Taken
Divinity
VD
BDA
Miscief?

Sorry if i left anyone off, its late.


And honestly, as cool as it would be for the last 5 to be able to tooth and gear up for VP, its not even in consideration in this discussion, so just drop the VP talk.

only way those guilds get into a rotation is if the GMs enforced it.

TR and TMO could do a rotation on those if they agreed between themselves and no one would be the wiser. Will we? no. Those mobs don't need a rotation.

The only mob that could possibly need a rotation atm would be Trakanon, and that's only to combat the small chance that he rides out his entire window.

The main thing is a possible rotation on VP. That is very dependent on how it is set up. If the zone has an independent variance for every target, a rotation is pointless and TMO/TR will hardly ever step out of VP again and soon both would probably burn out enough people to fill 2 raid guilds. If it is set to spawn all mobs at once, then TMO and TR could do a rotation of sorts to combat the clusterfuck of racing inside at the same time.

Talking about a rotation for every god/dragon is pointless with the entire server imo. TR and TMO go hard against each other non-stop and it gets overboard at times. However, I don't see either guild, much less both, just stepping aside for every guild to come walk in like it's Christmas.

PS. A rotation between TMO & TR would only benefit them and the GMs. (on VP)

P.P.S I don't see a rotation ever happening. It will 99% sure enough be a clusterfuck between TR/TMO.

[Haul]

beat salty to the punch, but in the end... us red folk are so wise and know the solutions to things. (without writing a novel)

lol

[Haul]

Searyx's Perfect World

P1999 but with PvP and antiKringeHax switches on.

GMs sit back and sip long island iced tea while the players kill eachother for content and don't have to poopsock or politick for pixels.

This.

[Tasslehofp99]

Part 2 of this solution - Add /guildwar command, if guild A refuses to accept guildwar with guild B, training commences.

Part 3 of this solution - Drink beer and get ready for some PVP action on p99, while not having to make an entirely new server.


Or you could just make a rotation for the more exclusive boss mobs (easiest, most peaceful solution).

[Tasslehofp99]

This is exactly what I mean by making the rules to complicated, keeping things simple and followed to a "T" is the only way it would work here, muddying up the rotation rules is just the same as grieving. anything under 12-24 hrs is unreasonable for a legit rotation that would have staying power, enless a few certain guilds start thinking selfishly because the mob is sitting up and they can put up the numbers to kill it right that second. An easy answer for said guild if a rotation is set up is sorry, check the list and contact that guild rep for more details, or be on your way.

Also, a rotation for VP really isnt needed, TR and TMO have a massive head start on keys and key classes needed to enter and clear, so that part of the rotation discussion would be in the rotation counsel but obviously those 2 would determine what they wanted to do, in or out of counsel.




hehe, I played on prexus too. I remember it differently though, see there WAS a raid calender/rotation, then a guild named Stasis came along and said FUCK THIS WE PAY TO PLAY FIRST COME FIRST SERVE PEACE. That was the end of that.

[Skope]

hehe, I played on prexus too. I remember it differently though, see there WAS a raid calender/rotation, then a guild named Stasis came along and said FUCK THIS WE PAY TO PLAY FIRST COME FIRST SERVE PEACE. That was the end of that.

lasted for quite a while, too. Stasis was pretty much ostracized by the rest of the server for the douchebaggery and they quickly fell apart, fractured into stasis/poison dart frogs and then fell apart again, and again, and again.

[Anger]

Interested to see what the GM's think about this idea.

[Saiene]

Personally don't think it'll have the desired effect that you think. Eventually it will just be the guild that is better at training that will get all of the loots. The other guilds will drop down a notch and no longer be able to compete. That being said, I think its a great idea. GM's getting involved in matters wasn't classic at all, and besides, it was always extremely annoying. Training etc is just part of EQ.

[Harrison]

I don't know, on the nameless, we had GMs on call. I remember specific GM names, even, I saw them so often. (And not for the reasons you think lmao...I did some funny shit that got me put in time out quite often.)

Vinshayr, that guy fucking owned.

[Radiskull]

Somehow this became a rotation thread. I like Bob's idea, but it's never going to happen. Even if it did happen, there is too much animosity between the TR and TMO for there to be a willingness to negotiate kills. The training and such would never cease, and I feel quite strongly that OTHER guilds would suffer more then TR and TMO, who are already exposed to this drama all the time. If a guild did get a shot at, say a CT or VS kill, one group of either guild could ruin it. The strong would get stronger, due to their willingness to stoop lower.

As far as the rotation goes, there is zero reason for TR or TMO to EVER let anyone in on a relevant kill. If they decided to rotate on Trak (I know, never happening) then for a 3rd guild to even get on the rotation they'd have to show a willingness to poopsock EVERY Trak kill they way TR and TMO have the last few months. I see no other guild on the server even contemplating this as an option. So any rotation talks should be between TR and TMO, not Divinity, Taken, VD, BDA, etc. Want to come at the two big dogs, you have to put in what they've put in, which is countless hours doing nothing on a ledge in Sebilis.

My solution? Start throwing out raid suspensions like they're going out of style. Two guilds have an altercation? Good luck next week on a kill. It'd allow honest competition, and fear of not raiding for a week would create a more civlized raiding environment. If two guilds want to camp at Trak until he spawns, you're doing it at your own risk. After 2-3 one week raid suspensions, guilds will start to fall apart or start to talk.

[Skope]

only way those guilds get into a rotation is if the GMs enforced it.

the GMs talked a lot about not caring about the population and not giving 2 shits about the top 2 guilds or any guilds on the server, but if anyone thinks this to be even remotely true anymore (and i highly doubted that it ever was) is lying to themselves.

The guides/GMs dont mind showing up to TR/TMO altercations week in and week out and they never settle it. Sometimes they boot 1 guild out of the zone, the next week they give a week suspension to someone training. Though they claimed they wanted them to work it out on their own it never actually happened. I cant recall a single time where Uth or Rogean ported into seb after getting a petition (or 500 of them and only 2-3 that are actually legible), saw the dumbasses sitting there and said "eff you, im deleting the loot and he's not spawning for a week until you get this shit settled." THAT is the hallmark of a GM not giving 2 shits and actually wanting to take a step back and not be involved in their BS. This doesn't happen and it has never happened. That's what i've meant by pandering.

You can also approach this in a different way:

Single out the guilds/people responsible for not wanting to come to agreements and not giving in a little bit so you, the staff, can get the raiders out of your hair.

This has already been pointed out, but Rogean backtracked on a promise of enforcing rule(s) that the players agreed to during the poopsock. Granted all the rules were pretty garbage back then, the one rule in particular actually made poopsock somewhat fair

[Humerox]

Interested to see what the GM's think about this idea.

They've said, time and again, no FFA.

[Anger]

They've said, time and again, no FFA.

But now that Bob is involved, its srs bsns.

[Duma]

I cant recall a single time where Uth or Rogean ported into seb after getting a petition (or 500 of them and only 2-3 that are actually legible), saw the dumbasses sitting there and said "eff you, im deleting the loot and he's not spawning for a week until you get this shit settled." THAT is the hallmark of a GM not giving 2 shits and actually wanting to take a step back and not be involved in their BS. This doesn't happen and it has never happened. That's what i've meant by pandering.


"If we don't get the kill no one gets the kill. We'll be here every week to contest and get it depopped".

It's happened before.

[Lazortag]

As far as the rotation goes, there is zero reason for TR or TMO to EVER let anyone in on a relevant kill. If they decided to rotate on Trak (I know, never happening) then for a 3rd guild to even get on the rotation they'd have to show a willingness to poopsock EVERY Trak kill they way TR and TMO have the last few months. I see no other guild on the server even contemplating this as an option. So any rotation talks should be between TR and TMO, not Divinity, Taken, VD, BDA, etc. Want to come at the two big dogs, you have to put in what they've put in, which is countless hours doing nothing on a ledge in Sebilis.


I really think my idea solves all of this and I did provide a reason why TR/TMO would opt for the kind of rotation I suggested. If you only let guilds rotate on mobs they've killed before, TR/TMO doesn't have to rotate on Trak since no other guild has killed Trak. If another guild poopsocks Trak then they're violating the terms of the rotation - this is fair since the best way to determine their worthiness to kill Trak isn't to see if they're willing to poopsock, but to see if they can kill Trak on a server repop before all other guilds can get to him. This way it's not just a contest of who can kill Trak under ideal conditions but who can kill Trak AND mobilize to him the fastest. Also, this arrangement still guarantees TR/TMO the vast majority of the mobs (1/2 of all trakanons, 1/3 of all VS's (I think?), probably 1/2 of most of the kunark dragons, etc.) but it has the added benefit of them not having to devote so much time to the game. The people in TR/TMO aren't massochistic, they don't LIKE to poopsock or to do nothing but track for an entire window, but they do it because there's no alternative that will guarantee their guilds a bigger share of the raid targets. My suggestion makes sure that guilds with previous success on this server get more mobs but still allows for a rotation on mobs that other guilds have killed.

[Vondra]

To prevent poopsocking, along with variance...have the boss be able to spawn at a wide variety of popular low/mid level hunting areas instead of where it is supposed to.

Mostly because I want to hear shouts like "Need help with Nagafen at Orc 1" in EC and "TRAK TO ZONE!" in crushbone

[Dr4z3r]

Bob, I think you're overestimating the amount of time that developers spend on handling player disputes. Kanras and Haynar are not server guides (to my knowledge), and they don't spend any time responding to petitions about dragons. In fact, I think the only person that crossed over that boundary in recent memory was Uthgaard.

All of you advocating a solution to the raid scene without GM enforcement would do well to read up on The Prinsoner's Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma) and/or The Tragedy of the Commons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons), edit: and/or the concept of the Dominant Strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_strategy). This goes double for Lazortag, who has apparently reached the conclusion that 'socking isn't rational. :confused:

[Duie]

B)TR has never gone into a zone and demanded people to leave. We might say something about us pulling a mob and to be careful to not die to it.

You remeber when Taken sat at island 4 in sky and(admitedly)" broke the rules"? Did you ever ask yourself why we were so hell bent at making sure you guys didnt get another mob that day?

Well it ws atell that Both Zeelot and shaere got stating that we are taking Djorn and the rest of those pops and you and your guld needs to leave NOW.
You see Tmo came up, before TR , asked our intents and we came to an agreement, Seeing everyone of those mobs can drop the same loot, Why couldn't TR talk it out and say to hell with the damn "rules" instead of running to them and Telling us to leave? Youd Find Shaere and Zeelot reasonable people if your leaders were not so hel lbent in being dicks.

[Dravingar]

You remeber when Taken sat at island 4 in sky and(admitedly)" broke the rules"? Did you ever ask yourself why we were so hell bent at making sure you guys didnt get another mob that day?

Well it ws atell that Both Zeelot and shaere got stating that we are taking Djorn and the rest of those pops and you and your guld needs to leave NOW.
You see Tmo came up, before TR , asked our intents and we came to an agreement, Seeing everyone of those mobs can drop the same loot, Why couldn't TR talk it out and say to hell with the damn "rules" instead of running to them and Telling us to leave? Youd Find Shaere and Zeelot reasonable people if your leaders were not so hel lbent in being dicks.

I can't make this post without it turning into a FnF post so I'll just say lol.

[Hottbiscuits Dreadmuffin]

Someone suggested instancing in another thread, but that would make the rare items too common

Removing all of the rules in regards to training could be disaster for lowbie camps/everywhere else in general

Having big raid target mobs spawn in random zones would be HILARIOUS (and may work, maybe?)

http://i.imgur.com/XRpb6.jpg

[Messianic]

http://i.imgur.com/XRpb6.jpg

Lol, this is nice

[Lazortag]

Bob, I think you're overestimating the amount of time that developers spend on handling player disputes. Kanras and Haynar are not server guides (to my knowledge), and they don't spend any time responding to petitions about dragons. In fact, I think the only person that crossed over that boundary in recent memory was Uthgaard.

All of you advocating a solution to the raid scene without GM enforcement would do well to read up on The Prinsoner's Dilemma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma) and/or The Tragedy of the Commons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons). This goes double for Lazortag, who has apparently reached the conclusion that 'socking isn't rational. :confused:

I'm pretty sure most of us have spent more than a minute in a university and are familiar with both of those thought experiments. Either way, I'm not sure why you lumped me in the category of people who oppose GM involvement in the raid scene, since I think the GM's should be involved. Also this situation is hardly analogous to a prisoner's dilemma since you can actually see if a guild is poopsocking before the mob spawns; you have no idea if your accomplice in a crime is going to snitch or if they're going to honour your agreement, so in that situation it's rational to defect. However, if you initially agree not to poopsock, you're never going to get screwed by the "they defected, you cooperated" situation (which is the worst one to be on the receiving end of) since you can actually change your decision before the "game" is over. That way there's no benefit to "defecting" since it guarantees that the opposing guild will defect. See this part of the article that you yourself linked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner%27s_dilemma#Generalized_form

[Skope]

hey, i had a thought that occurred to me about a million times over the last year...

if 4 day windows were introduced to prevent poopsock and we've spent more time poopsocking with 4 day variance than we've spent not poopsocking, maybe we should just go classic.

[Dr4z3r]

I'm not sure why you lumped me in the category of people who oppose GM involvement in the raid scene, since I think the GM's should be involved.

I lumped you in because you said this:

players are willing to poopsock, which is not rational and is in no one's interest.

Put simply, 'socking is the dominant strategy. This is where the prisoner's dilemma becomes relevant: As soon as Guild A chooses Defect, Guild B must choose the same in order to have a chance at anything. You're right that it's not directly analogous to the Prisoner's Dilemma, but the Dilemma still serves as a simplified illustration of the dominant strategy. Given that raid mobs on P99 are all-or-nothing (your guild gets all the loot, or none of it), a decision matrix for a 2-guild standoff would look like this:

http://i.imgur.com/mPx52.png

Where the numbers represent the approximate chance to get the mob. So, can 'sock, with a chance of either .5 or 1 to get the mob, or you can not 'sock, and have a chance of either 0 or .5.

Given that the goal is to get the mob's loot, what is the correct strategy?

So, here we have our rational, self-interested decision. Of course, in the long run, everyone involved in 'socking mobs for a long period of time will be unhappy, burn out on the game, or just stop giving a fuck. It will detriment the lives of those players, those guilds, and ultimately the server as a whole. This is, of course, the Tragedy of the Commons.

[Agent]

Hmmm sounds really frustrating. WELCOME TO EQ

[Gwence]

look at it like this. If We in the Semi Casual raiding guilds allied together to force a rotation. what could you do about it? before you answer that, check the numbers of VD,Divinity, BDA, And Taken. Right now it is not to our best intrest to poopsock ,But if thats what it takes to get you guys to start talking, well We out number Both TMO and TR in manpower, Timezone and Telephones. and Im not just talking Trak either.



Bring it on carebear

[Lazortag]

I lumped you in because you said this:



Put simply, 'socking is the dominant strategy. This is where the prisoner's dilemma becomes relevant: As soon as Guild A chooses Defect, Guild B must choose the same in order to have a chance at anything. You're right that it's not directly analogous to the Prisoner's Dilemma, but the Dilemma still serves as a simplified illustration of the dominant strategy. Given that raid mobs on P99 are all-or-nothing (your guild gets all the loot, or none of it), a decision matrix for a 2-guild standoff would look like this:

http://i.imgur.com/mPx52.png

Where the numbers represent the approximate chance to get the mob. So, can 'sock, with a chance of either .5 or 1 to get the mob, or you can not 'sock, and have a chance of either 0 or .5.

Given that the goal is to get the mob's loot, what is the correct strategy?
...

Both socking and not socking may yield equal chances at getting mobs (in theory), but socking is still less rational because it requires such a huge time investment for the exact same payoff as both guilds agreeing to cooperate. In a prisoner's dilemma, you're encouraged to defect only because you're uncertain of what the other actor in the situation will do and because you're locked into whatever decision you make at first. In this situation you can foresee that guilds will poopsock raid mobs because the act of poopsocking happens before the mob spawns, and you can change your decision after. So really there's no benefit to defecting (ie poopsocking) if you're one of the top two guilds, because it forces the same behaviour from the other guild. Anyways, this is all kind of absurd. I'm sure we both have better things to do than to relate game theory to poopsocking.

[Shiftin]

Youd Find Shaere and Zeelot reasonable people...

Let me know when your comedy central special is airing.

The rules are the rules. They're only a page long. Read them.

They need to either be enforced strictly or publicly removed for everyone, because the half assed nature of the last month is the source of more raiding angst and headaches than i could have dreamed possible and every guild is losing raiders who are getting tired of dealing with this nonsense.

[Skope]

They need to either be enforced strictly or publicly removed for everyone, because the half assed nature of the last month is the source of more raiding angst and headaches than i could have dreamed possible and every guild is losing raiders who are getting tired of dealing with this nonsense.

that sort of inconsistency has permeated the raiding scene for a long time now, it's the shitty decisions the last couple of weeks that has tipped people over the edge.

[GiavannaSK]

Im still new here, can someone explain Poopsocking to me? :confused:

[Autotune]

Let me know when your comedy central special is airing.

The rules are the rules. They're only a page long. Read them.

They need to either be enforced strictly or publicly removed for everyone, because the half assed nature of the last month is the source of more raiding angst and headaches than i could have dreamed possible and every guild is losing raiders who are getting tired of dealing with this nonsense.

meh it got edited so whatev.

[Dr4z3r]

Both socking and not socking may yield equal chances at getting mobs (in theory), but socking is still less rational because it requires such a huge time investment for the exact same payoff as both guilds agreeing to cooperate. In a prisoner's dilemma, you're encouraged to defect only because you're uncertain of what the other actor in the situation will do and because you're locked into whatever decision you make at first. In this situation you can foresee that guilds will poopsock raid mobs because the act of poopsocking happens before the mob spawns, and you can change your decision after. So really there's no benefit to defecting (ie poopsocking) if you're one of the top two guilds, because it forces the same behaviour from the other guild. Anyways, this is all kind of absurd. I'm sure we both have better things to do than to relate game theory to poopsocking.

I'm not trying to say that camping strategies == prisoner's dilemma, I'm saying that they have a similar Nash Equlibrium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nash_equilibrium#Prisoner.27s_dilemma), becasuse 'socking is a weakly dominant strategy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_dominance#Terminology) in P99 raiding. Regardless of what other guilds do, poopsocking will always yield the same or better results as the alternatives.

This is why, given that the player's goal is to get loot from a particular mob, poopsocking any given window of that mob is rationally correct, even if it's not the best strategy in the long-run.

Oh, and as to whether we have better stuff to do... If the long-term goal is to make things better then I think a little rational discourse using game-theory is probably the best thing that could possibly happen in this thread.

[john_savage1982]

I lumped you in because you said this:



Put simply, 'socking is the dominant strategy. This is where the prisoner's dilemma becomes relevant: As soon as Guild A chooses Defect, Guild B must choose the same in order to have a chance at anything. You're right that it's not directly analogous to the Prisoner's Dilemma, but the Dilemma still serves as a simplified illustration of the dominant strategy. Given that raid mobs on P99 are all-or-nothing (your guild gets all the loot, or none of it), a decision matrix for a 2-guild standoff would look like this:

http://i.imgur.com/mPx52.png

Where the numbers represent the approximate chance to get the mob. So, can 'sock, with a chance of either .5 or 1 to get the mob, or you can not 'sock, and have a chance of either 0 or .5.

Given that the goal is to get the mob's loot, what is the correct strategy?

So, here we have our rational, self-interested decision. Of course, in the long run, everyone involved in 'socking mobs for a long period of time will be unhappy, burn out on the game, or just stop giving a fuck. It will detriment the lives of those players, those guilds, and ultimately the server as a whole. This is, of course, the Tragedy of the Commons.

This analysis deals with a game played once. When a game with these payoffs are played over and over, cooperation can become increasingly likely. However, if all parties are determined and willing to expend the resources (time, energy, etc) necessary to get loot then cooperation may never occur. Further, the problem with socking is that payoff is not 50/50 since the guild that was there first wins the game.

The situation here is that P1999 players will expend ridiculous amounts of energy to increase their chance to get loot...even if that chance is only increased slightly.

Perhaps a more relevant academic subject that you should be examining is elements of learning and conditioning. Everquest, like many addicting games, has a variable ratio schedule of reinforcement, where players are rewarded based on variable level of behavioral compliance. Examples of this includes randomized loot from raid targets, boss spawns, random timer on AC in OOT, and so forth. All of these systems are designed to keep you waiting one more second in hopes your commitment will payoff, which only makes you play more and more. At the high end of Everquest you have players that will devote hours upon hours of their lives to the game. Mind you, this is sitting in front of a computer for hours clicking buttons and looking at graphics on a screen.

The even sicker part is the way the reinforcement of the game substitutes for many players as a form of personal achievement. So instead of playing for fun, they play for the sense of achievement that playing brings them when they get items that are rare or other players don't have.

[G13]

Let me know when your comedy central special is airing.

The rules are the rules. They're only a page long. Read them.

They need to either be enforced strictly or publicly removed for everyone, because the half assed nature of the last month is the source of more raiding angst and headaches than i could have dreamed possible and every guild is losing raiders who are getting tired of dealing with this nonsense.

The irony of this post is amazing

[Kassel]

your game theory needs more consideration of the huge negative externalities present.

[Dr4z3r]

This analysis deals with a game played once. When a game with these payoffs are played over and over, cooperation can become increasingly likely. However, if all parties are determined and willing to expend the resources (time, energy, etc) necessary to get loot then cooperation may never occur. Further, the problem with socking is that payoff is not 50/50 since the guild that was there first wins the game.

The payoff for 'socking depends on the ruleset. If the rules are enforced exactly as they're written in the current P99 PNP (sufficient force on spawn point), then you're right that there's no 50% chance of payoff, but those rules haven't really been enforced as written lately. The case I was writing about was assuming a FTE ruleset, where being on the spawn point just means that you have essentially a chance of (1/# of guilds present) of being the first person to "engage" the mob by being attacked.

Perhaps a more relevant academic subject that you should be examining is elements of learning and conditioning.

I've read about Skinner Boxes, but that's off-topic. If you'd like to convince people to quit EQ, then by all means start a different thread.

your game theory needs more consideration of the huge negative externalities present.

Externalities considered:So, here we have our rational, self-interested decision. Of course, in the long run, everyone involved in 'socking mobs for a long period of time will be unhappy, burn out on the game, or just stop giving a fuck. It will detriment the lives of those players, those guilds, and ultimately the server as a whole. This is, of course, the Tragedy of the Commons.

[tekniq]

i concur sir.

[Silentone]

I still dont undestand why there is so much complaining about raiding. If you want to kill a mob spend the time to do it, if you dont then quit whining for the mobs to be handed to you with x amount of time for you to log in and kill it with guild A and B. This is a classic server and most of us are playing on it for that reason exactly, competition. You dont want to waste your life/time camping mobs thats fine too, jus wait till the content is semi old and raid it when the top guilds arent actively farming the mob.

[Lazortag]

I still dont undestand why there is so much complaining about raiding. If you want to kill a mob spend the time to do it, if you dont then quit whining for the mobs to be handed to you with x amount of time for you to log in and kill it with guild A and B. This is a classic server and most of us are playing on it for that reason exactly, competition. You dont want to waste your life/time camping mobs thats fine too, jus wait till the content is semi old and raid it when the top guilds arent actively farming the mob.

The complaining comes from the fact that the amount of time required for most of the higher end content is longer than any server ever required in the classic period, due to the outrageously long variance on raid mobs.

[Silentone]

In that case make a post about having the variance removed not having a raid mob rotation.

[Noser]

Raiding Trak would be fun if they spawned him in a random world zone, once a week, at a random time. Obv not classic but people would have to race for him which beats poopsocking his lair imo.

[citizen1080]

Perhaps the best way would be to have Someone on the staff post a poll for the entire server. Leave it up for a month. Have the top 3-4 ideas for a new Ruleset for raiding as the old one obviously is not working well. No account that is less than a month old may vote and the outcome will be reviewed by staff and implemented within X amount of time. The entire server would be able to vote on how they want it handled. No one guild has a membership big enough to swing the vote in a direction the server disagrees with.

This would

A. Fix current issues

B. Put the responsibility on the people. If they vote one way and it turns out to not work the staff and just point the finger back at us and say "You asked for it"

As we all know there are MANY versions of classic EQ as far as raiding is concerned. We have used one of them on this server and it is simply not working. I do not see why we can not try one of the many others that evolved over the years on EQ servers.

[Silentone]

I dont agree with that at all, its always been the case that the top end guilds have the most dedicated people and make up a smaller precentage of the server. Putting the choice of how mobs are raided into the casual players hands is just plain silly. I mean why dont we just all hold hands kill the dragons and hand out loot to everyone who is online at the time regardless of level and guild. You talk about guild rotation..well what would stop random non-raiding guild A B C D from wanting in on a Dragon rotation. Hell why cant people who dont want to be a part of a guild have a open slot for "open raid night" in the rotation. This stuff just makes me laugh, we play this game for the competition, its the one thing that sets itself appart from other MMO's that are all running on instance raids. I dont see how your logic allows there to be a rotation for guild A B C D but not the other 100 guilds on the server, maybe a few guidls want to get together and kill a raid mob ..do they get a spot in rotation? Hell whats to stop top guilds from dividing up into Guild A B C but have alts and what not in the guilds just to get 4 or 5 spots in this rotation you so badly want.

[YendorLootmonkey]

well what would stop random non-raiding guild A B C D from wanting in on a Dragon rotation.

What's to stop them now?

1) Get 15 players in zone.
2) Get lucky and be FTE
3) Watch as TR and TMO burn Trak down as soon as it spawns.
4) Petition GM because you had FTE
5) Watch shitstorm as your guild gets handed loot based on previous precedence.

That's what it's turned into.

[Autotune]

What's to stop them now?

1) Get 15 players in zone.
2) Get lucky and be FTE
3) Watch as TR and TMO burn Trak down as soon as it spawns.
4) Petition GM because you had FTE
5) Watch shitstorm as your guild gets handed loot based on previous precedence.

That's what it's turned into.

That isn't entirely true.

The current raid scene isn't as bad as most make it out to be. I see nothing wrong with it, except for a slight few tweaks that need to be made currently.

The only thing that possibly needs a change is something that has yet to be put in or made public on how it will operate.

[Lazortag]

I dont agree with that at all, its always been the case that the top end guilds have the most dedicated people and make up a smaller precentage of the server. Putting the choice of how mobs are raided into the casual players hands is just plain silly. I mean why dont we just all hold hands kill the dragons and hand out loot to everyone who is online at the time regardless of level and guild. You talk about guild rotation..well what would stop random non-raiding guild A B C D from wanting in on a Dragon rotation. Hell why cant people who dont want to be a part of a guild have a open slot for "open raid night" in the rotation. This stuff just makes me laugh, we play this game for the competition, its the one thing that sets itself appart from other MMO's that are all running on instance raids. I dont see how your logic allows there to be a rotation for guild A B C D but not the other 100 guilds on the server, maybe a few guidls want to get together and kill a raid mob ..do they get a spot in rotation? Hell whats to stop top guilds from dividing up into Guild A B C but have alts and what not in the guilds just to get 4 or 5 spots in this rotation you so badly want.

Earlier in this thread I suggested something that solves all of this and is still competitive. I'm kind of tired of reposting it, I can understand that not everyone is going to read the whole thread, but so far no one's responded and I thought it was a very good idea.

That isn't entirely true.

The current raid scene isn't as bad as most make it out to be. I see nothing wrong with it, except for a slight few tweaks that need to be made currently.

The only thing that possibly needs a change is something that has yet to be put in or made public on how it will operate.

Yeah, nothing's wrong except for the fact that 1/3 of the raid capable guilds on this server are getting over 95% of the mobs, almost entirely because they have people willing to waste their time tracking/poopsocking for absurd amounts of time. That's kind of a high entry cost to be a "hardcore raider" on this server, and certainly not what people expected when they signed up for a "Classic" server.

[Nivar Quartz]

That isn't entirely true.

The current raid scene isn't as bad as most make it out to be. I see nothing wrong with it, except for a slight few tweaks that need to be made currently.

The only thing that possibly needs a change is something that has yet to be put in or made public on how it will operate.

There's no discussion here, just lawyering and people that like to see themselves type.

Also to Stealin, noone really cares about the Vp topic your repeating in basicly every reply, its been explained more than once to you in this thread.

[Acillatem]

Last September I had approached all raiding guilds (big or small - as long as they did Planar raids) about a "Tiered Seeded Calendar Rotation". I had researched about 10 different Calendar Rotations to come up with this idea. There were about 10 guilds on my list. All but one guild agreed to at least consider it. (And that one guild was NOT DA or IB).

It was the type of rotation that allowed SOME, not ALL mobs to be put on rotation (therefore keeping the "Thrill of the Chase" intact for some mobs). It kept people in line with their current capabilities allowing room for growth at a rate that wouldn't compromise current competition rates beyond a "reasonable" level (reasonable was a varied opinion however based on "Time Saved by not poopsocking").

Targets were chosen week to week with first choice alternating each week, yet with Top Guilds receiving more choices.

It included "Priority Guarantee" for Top guilds so that they weren't getting shafted with the 10th pick of the week just becuz they were 1st last week. It had a sense of seniority, even tho the Draft Order changed week-to-week.

It was as close to a win-win as I could come up with. I even did comparisons showing current target "take-downs" and projected to show that over the course of a month, a Top Guild was receiving 2-4 less kills per month (total, not just per mob), but was not having to sacrifice the TIMESINK of poopsocking.

It really just boils down to "Do you think poopsocking is worth 1 more mob a week". Think of the time spent in an average week. How many Total "man-hours" is spent per guild per week, for 1 extra mob. Becuz ultimately that was the difference between the Tiered Seeded Calendar rotation and the current state of affairs.

Those man hours could be spent doing a multitude of other things to benefit the guild from a different perspective.

Then I got a new job working 15 hours a day and so I kinda had to drop it. I could dig it up again I'm sure. I spent a lot time doing the research on it, and all the Guild Leaders at the time (most of which still exist today) were at least willing to consider it, some more than others. At the time, DA/IB's main concern wasn't that they didn't like it - they were both more concerned whether the OTHER guild was willing to try it (lol).

[Dr4z3r]

Yeah, nothing's wrong except for the fact that 1/3 of the raid capable guilds on this server are getting over 95% of the mobs, almost entirely because they have people willing to waste their time tracking/poopsocking for absurd amounts of time. That's kind of a high entry cost to be a "hardcore raider" on this server, and certainly not what people expected when they signed up for a "Classic" server.

If you signed up for classic EQ, and expected to reap high-end rewards without dedicating an exorbitant amount of time to it... I don't believe you actually played pre-Luclin EQ.

[Foxx]

simple solution

play red99, fight others for the mob.

qq less

[Nirgon]

Train mobs on other guilds until 4:30am, kill mob while normal people sleep. Good for server.

[Asher]

Another idea, if it hasn't already been said:

Make people that have already killed the mob recently have to wait X number of hours before they can engage it again. Block them based on IP and boot them from zone similar to what vox and naggy do. Remove variance timers.

You participated in the mobs kill when it last spawned you must wait 4 hours.

You killed the one prior you must wait 2 hours.

You killed the one prior to that you must wait one hour.

If you haven't participated in a kill on it in the last three spawns it is open season when it pops.


Asher

[Acillatem]

That won't work becuz in my research the bigger guilds had 3 primary concerns:

1 - they didn't want to completely eliminate the thrill of racing to a mob
2 - the mobs lost by a rotation of any kind had to be in line with time gained by not having to poopsock
3 - hey still wanted to have a sense of seniority that is so often lost in a calendar.

Keep those 3 things in mind and you have one sides concerns in regards to a rotation.t

[stormlord]

It's pretty clear to me that in classic EQ there wasn't enough to raid; if live was anything like p1999. Keep in mind that I didn't raid on live until about 2007. So I don't know what it was like back then. Did they cycle raids so that every guild had a chance at it? Is it possible that something in p1999 is different and that's what's causing the raid problem.

Maybe hte experience gain is too high and it's creating more high levels (raiders)? People know a lot more about EQ now than they did back then. Much more information is available via Allah. Players level up faster.

But the thing is, live had two to three times more players than we do. How did they manage raids with so many more people than us? It could be that even having more population than us they STILL progressed markedly slower and thus the conflict at the higher levels was less than it's here. Must have been a lot slower. Is the conflict here imagined?

Some people say instances are the answer, but they forget that changing classic EQ to what we want it to be misses the whole point of the server. But I will admit that some things ARE different; for example, we know a lot more than we did back then, and there're not nearly enough players on p1999 to equal what was on the live servers. But changing p1999 might inevitably lead to an experience that's not like classic EQ at all. That's the danger. But more than that, I'd like to see somebody offer an answer that doesn't use the instancing mechanic. There should be plenty of ways to do it. The question is: which is easiest to do and which most fits the character of EQ up to and including Velious?

Personally, I don't feel instancing fits the character of EQ in that era. Instancing wasn't introduced, as far as I know, until LDON. So I think the answer, if any, should be non-instanced. Besides, instancing is cliche and overused.

And are we willing to change p1999 to accommodate raiders? Are they the majority population? My previous post touched on this, but being a majority population is important if a server is going to change itself for that population. If you only have a minority that disagrees then you can live with that. But if you have a majority that disagrees because the server changed itself to appease a minority then you have a majority population that's not in agreement.

To explain this further, I will give an example. This server is not averse to changing itself, if it's necessary. We implemented global chat when population was low. This change made p1999 different from live. But it was necessary because most, if not all players travel and communicate. That precedent showed that we will change p1999 if we have to, given that some things are different from live and cannot be resolved by not changing anything. The question is whether changing how raiding works is necessary or not - dependent on whether raiders are a majority population.

Thank you.

[Gmal]

What's to stop them now?

1) Get 15 players in zone.
2) Get lucky and be FTE
3) Watch as TR and TMO burn Trak down as soon as it spawns.
4) Petition GM because you had FTE
5) Watch shitstorm as your guild gets handed loot based on previous precedence.

That's what it's turned into.

This is incorrect. The rules state that you need to have a raid force capable of taking down mob in question for FTE to apply.

Even if your FTE and you dont have the force required to burn down said mob we will just watch you give it a good quarterback effort and res you after we have distributed the loot. If by chance you can take down Trak with 15 players we will give you mad props =-)

[Dr4z3r]

People know a lot more about EQ now than they did back then. Much more information is available via Allah. Players level up faster.

These three factors are the biggest reason there's raiding drama on this server despite having fewer players than most live servers. It's not that the experience gain is wrong, it's that the players are better at Everquest, so a much larger portion of the playerbase is raid-capable.

That said, any raiding-related drama seems to far, far, out-last the actual incident and its ramifications on the server.

[Lazortag]

If you signed up for classic EQ, and expected to reap high-end rewards without dedicating an exorbitant amount of time to it... I don't believe you actually played pre-Luclin EQ.

This is a red herring. Of course I expect to have to devote lots of time to the game (like hundreds of hours of grinding), but the amount of time you have to devote on this server to be a hardcore raider is absurdly longer than what was required in classic. It doesn't matter if the time dedication was a lot in classic, what matters is that the dedication required is unfairly greater on this server.

[Silentone]

Well let me explain why calander and rotation and carebear wont work. Its not that high end raiding guilds mind losing 2 or 3 mobs within a month its that they dont want the competing guilds to get loot/keys. Its a simple fact that if you stop other guilds from recieving the loot then you stay on top of the game. As soon as random guilds are getting a fair share of the loot then you start losing your own player base. As it is now if you want to effectivly be in a raiding guild you have only 2 choices, which means those guilds will allways have a constant application list and in the end be raid capable. So in 2 months when VP comes out..there will only be 2 guidls inside instead of 4 or 5, and if possible both raiding guilds will try to keep each other out as well. Its just the way classic EQ was. Even back in velious era, you would see guilds still killing trak to not allow other guilds to get VP keys, until they were done farming VP. Priority for guilds has allways been to
a) get keyed/geard
b) to stop others from getting keyed/geared

Its just the way EQ works....

[Lazortag]

Well let me explain why calander and rotation and carebear wont work. Its not that high end raiding guilds mind losing 2 or 3 mobs within a month its that they dont want the competing guilds to get loot/keys. Its a simple fact that if you stop other guilds from recieving the loot then you stay on top of the game. As soon as random guilds are getting a fair share of the loot then you start losing your own player base. As it is now if you want to effectivly be in a raiding guild you have only 2 choices, which means those guilds will allways have a constant application list and in the end be raid capable. So in 2 months when VP comes out..there will only be 2 guidls inside instead of 4 or 5, and if possible both raiding guilds will try to keep each other out as well. Its just the way classic EQ was. Even back in velious era, you would see guilds still killing trak to not allow other guilds to get VP keys, until they were done farming VP. Priority for guilds has allways been to
a) get keyed/geard
b) to stop others from getting keyed/geared

Its just the way EQ works....

Except the time investment that's required is completely different. How many times do I have to say this? Did anyone in classic have to track a mob for up to 96 hours? No, because no mobs had 96 hour windows.

The thing is, it would make sense for the top guilds to agree to a rotation because they'd get more mobs per minute that they spend playing the game, and would probably have more time to enjoy the game, level their alts, or just go outside.

[Doors]

The thing is, it would make sense for the top guilds to agree to a rotation because they'd get more mobs per minute that they spend playing the game, and would probably have more time to enjoy the game, level their alts, or just go outside.

If these fucking nerds would stop caring so much about pixels and besting random person A from guild B raiding on this server probably wouldn't be as shitty.

[Skope]

If these fucking nerds would stop caring so much about pixels and besting random person A from guild B raiding on this server probably wouldn't be as shitty.

Doors, remember that the more time i sit /afk and the shinier pixels = i'm better at everquest than you.

If you replace the word everquest with p99 then it's probably true. And quite sad, actually. haha

[Dr4z3r]

the amount of time you have to devote on this server to be a hardcore raider is absurdly longer than what was required in classic. It doesn't matter if the time dedication was a lot in classic, what matters is that the dedication required is unfairly greater on this server.

I don't quite understand what's "unfair" about the situation, at least with regards to what's been discussed in this thread. If you want the windows shortened, you should advocate for that directly, but it's tangential to Bob's suggsted lasseiz-fair raiding ruleset.

The thing is, it would make sense for the top guilds to agree to a rotation because they'd get more mobs per minute that they spend playing the game, and would probably have more time to enjoy the game, level their alts, or just go outside.

This goes straight back to game the Game Theory we were discussing earlier. If Guild A and Guild B agree to a 50/50 rotation, but there are no in-game consequences for breaking the rotation, it's not hard to figure out what the Nash Equilibrium of the system is: No rotation.

I can only think of two possible changes that would make agreeing to a rotation the dominant strategy: GM enforcement, and extreme time-commitment in VP, such that competing for other mobs is no longer possible.

[Lazortag]

I don't quite understand what's "unfair" about the situation, at least with regards to what's been discussed in this thread. If you want the windows shortened, you should advocate for that directly, but it's tangential to Bob's suggsted lasseiz-fair raiding ruleset.


My complaints about the raid scene were relevant in the context I mentioned them (you can go back and check), and I already responded to Bob's suggestion. This thread isn't entirely about Bob's idea anymore. A big problem with his idea was that it doesn't fix the raid scene for the guilds outside of the top two. For those guilds the only way to compete is to devote an amount of time to the game that was never required in classic. That's what I believe is unfair. If you've ever actually been in the situation of having to track for a raid mob with variance on this server you'll know that it's ridiculous. Most raid mobs have a 48 hour variance which means their window can be up to four days long. Sure, there are ways to make it work (like tracking while doing something else if you're able to be near a computer all day), but it's still a colossal waste of time that was never needed in classic. While lots of things in eq are a huge waste of time, this is unique because it was invented here - it isn't classic at all.

[Dr4z3r]

You're right that the discussion was relevant in context. I still think advocating more directly for reduced windows would be good. I would think that cutting them in half wouldn't exactly plunge the server back into darkness.

[Ennoia]

Do no question Bob's wallet.

[CrotchCricket]

BOB IS RIGHT!!!! DOG EAT DOG WORLD!!!! SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST....LET ALL THESE BABIES PACK UP THEIR SHIT AND LEAVE!!!!!!

As far as I remember, in "classic EQ" training and KS'ing and all that good stuff was an everyday occurance. It taught respect and it took away the sense of feeling priviledged...in fact poopsocking wasn't even a term, because no one felt they had the exclusive rights to a "camp". You either killed or be killed, and guess what thats the way it was. All this baby shit has to stop...

And one side note. I'm sick of hearing about "uber" or "raid" guilds on this server. I have not see one of either on this server. All I see is guilds with 60+ members swarming and poopsocking. A raid is not overmatching your foe by sending in an army of drones. That is swarming. And uber is not sitting with your whole guild down in Trak's lair for a week just to make sure you can officially tell God on your way out that you wasted your whole entire life playing EQ.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves. GM's, "uber guilds" and us as a community are clearly failing. I've never seen hypocracy at such an alarming rate as I have in the last couple weeks. Recently- i was told by a guide that "considering all they do, they deserve a couple of perks." Haha well needless to say i about shit myself. Do we have a United States Congressman working as a guide on P99? As far as I know this server is built to serve the community who play on it, not those who operate it. Sounds to me that adminstration on P99 is confused like the administration in the White House. You servant to the community, thats the bed you made....now sleep in it.

****THIS POST WAS ALREADY POSTED IN SERVER CHAT BUT WAS BOUNCED TO RnF MOST LIKELY BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T WANNA HEAR THE TRUTH****

[casdegere]

My complaints about the raid scene were relevant in the context I mentioned them (you can go back and check), and I already responded to Bob's suggestion. This thread isn't entirely about Bob's idea anymore. A big problem with his idea was that it doesn't fix the raid scene for the guilds outside of the top two. For those guilds the only way to compete is to devote an amount of time to the game that was never required in classic. That's what I believe is unfair. If you've ever actually been in the situation of having to track for a raid mob with variance on this server you'll know that it's ridiculous. Most raid mobs have a 48 hour variance which means their window can be up to four days long. Sure, there are ways to make it work (like tracking while doing something else if you're able to be near a computer all day), but it's still a colossal waste of time that was never needed in classic. While lots of things in eq are a huge waste of time, this is unique because it was invented here - it isn't classic at all.

How can you say it is unfair? Put the time in and even the score. You get in what you put in. For 48 hours, people have their characters sitting in those zones doing nothing. no one says that other guilds can not do the same. Personally, I like to play, I have RL friends that I group with and we have a ball, but I got a life beyond the pixels, especially with SWTOR coming down the pipe. It is what it is and if its harshing your buzz, step away man.

[Dr4z3r]

You should all be ashamed of yourselves. GM's, "uber guilds" and us as a community are clearly failing. I've never seen hypocracy at such an alarming rate as I have in the last couple weeks. Recently- i was told by a guide that "considering all they do, they deserve a couple of perks." Haha well needless to say i about shit myself. Do we have a United States Congressman working as a guide on P99? As far as I know this server is built to serve the community who play on it, not those who operate it. Sounds to me that adminstration on P99 is confused like the administration in the White House. You servant to the community, thats the bed you made....now sleep in it.

I feel like I may regret even replying to this post, but I feel the need to say it:

Nilbog, Rogean, and everyone else who works on this server, don't owe you shit. Go back to WoW.

[citizen1080]

I feel like I may regret even replying to this post, but I feel the need to say it:

Nilbog, Rogean, and everyone else who works on this server, don't owe you shit.

^This, I have said this exactly in most my posts on this subject over the last week.

It's Nilbogs sandbox, who are we to demand he removes the cat shit in it.

[feste]

I got a life beyond the pixels, especially with SWTOR coming down the pipe.

hehe

[CrotchCricket]

I feel like I may regret even replying to this post, but I feel the need to say it:

Nilbog, Rogean, and everyone else who works on this server, don't owe you shit. Go back to WoW.

Didn't your mommy teach you not to put words in other peoples mouths? I'm not saying he owes anyone anything. The point is the server is a community and the adminstrators are the servants of the community. Yes Nilbog created the Sandbox...but i think Nilbog wants to share the Sandbox, not play in it by himself. Not once did i say they owe anything, my point was that they should not feel entitled to extra. Also I've never played WoW..actually i played on Nilbog's original server, and often enough with him. And I didn't wanna say this last part, but im in the ranting mood. You're a fuckhead so do us all a favor and disconnect DSL from your mama's trailer so you can shut the fuck up.

Peace,
The Props

[Dr4z3r]

The point is the server is a community and the adminstrators are the servants of the community.

No, they are not.

The server staff are community volunteers who do this in their free time, and they are not obligated to do anything for you or anyone else by anything but their own goodwill.

[Lazortag]

How can you say it is unfair? Put the time in and even the score. You get in what you put in. For 48 hours, people have their characters sitting in those zones doing nothing. no one says that other guilds can not do the same. Personally, I like to play, I have RL friends that I group with and we have a ball, but I got a life beyond the pixels, especially with SWTOR coming down the pipe. It is what it is and if its harshing your buzz, step away man.

Like I said, you just have to experience it before you can comment on whether it's unfair. I can tolerate a few deviations from the classic experience here and there, but it's just unreasonable to REQUIRE people to invest so much time in the game to access some of the higher raid content, when the required commitment in classic was not nearly bad.

[wrxBRAH]

Bobs idea works. If you're going to have a Play nice policy and bs like first to engage here, shouldnt it work for any guild clearing trash to get to the boss? Let the vultures fight it out and eventually they'll form a pecking order imo.

These guilds play for loot and if they cant have loot, they'll start to reconsider the way they behave with each other.

[Dr4z3r]

I feel like I may regret even replying to this post, but I feel the need to say it:

Should have listened to my intuition.

[Vohl]

So how does saying someone is a servant not imply that they have some sort of obligation? (For that matter, how does drawing this conclusion make someone an ignorant liberal?) The only unreasonable posts I'm seeing here are the ones that look like they belong in RnF.

[Skope]

How can you say it is unfair? Put the time in and even the score. You get in what you put in. For 48 hours, people have their characters sitting in those zones doing nothing. no one says that other guilds can not do the same. Personally, I like to play, I have RL friends that I group with and we have a ball, but I got a life beyond the pixels, especially with SWTOR coming down the pipe. It is what it is and if its harshing your buzz, step away man.

I think what you're not getting is why the 4 day variance was introduced in the first place.

It was initially brought up as a way to combat the stinky sock that made an introduction during the very early days of the server. Though it only happened rarely and wasn't a very large problem, it was nevertheless thought of as a potential issue. A 4 day window was thought to be long enough to combat anyone sitting on any particular spawn in order to essentially camp rights to that mob. Nobody in their right minds thought that people would be big enough douchemonkeys to actually sit there for 4+ days -- in fact that was in the rules, though i'm pretty sure they didn't use the word 'douchemonkeys'. Needless to say, people didn't hesitate to fill their socks, regardless of it essentially being a loophole in the rules. Actually, ever since the 4 day windows were introduced poopsocking has become the norm whenever there is competition for a high valued target. Basically the 4 day window did nothing but fill more socks and hasn't contributed to the health of the server whatsoever and to boot it's something that live never had. People can argue that you need 4 day windows to ease up on GM involvement and petitions but i'm pretty damn sure that doesn't matter anymore (see uthgaard's recent posts). By now people should have realized that poopsock has nothing to do with variance and variance has nothing to do with poopsock, which essentially means it's useless.

It still lingers here, like an ancient relic of shitty player decisions that ultimately got enforced by GMs.

[CrotchCricket]

the point was made in the context of the fact they're not administrators of the server for themselves. If you volunteer to have a responsiblility, then you DO HAVE AN OBLIGATION!!!! You can't use the fact that you're volunteering as a crutch to not have obligation...either they have it or don't...in which case if they don't owe us anything then don't expect your petition to be answered. The point is they signed up for what they're doing...and we're free to criticize as we please. And who really cares what section threads are posted under...if you don't like what you're reading, then stop fucking reading good god, you people want everything to be peachy fucking clean....do any of you fucks live with rest of us in this world???? I'm so sick of morons only reading part of the point and making their own judgments without fully informing themselves. We say words like fuck, we don't all wipe our asses totally clean, scratches our balls and wipe our mouths....and guess what we're your neighbor, your nephew and possibly that ugly little seed you're breeding!!!

Peace,
The Props

[citizen1080]

Yeah you should have, infact why dont you just unsubscribe and cancel your account seeing as how tho you have nothing of substance for input. And now i may be stretching it, but uh oh yeah go fuck yourself

Enough. This isn't RnF

[Vohl]

I'm honestly surprised this thread hasn't been moderated recently.

Without admins, none of this exists. Without any 20 of the rest of us, the sun rises and sets, same as ever. There are fewer than 20 of us who are ranting and flaming. I haven't seen anything involving the server operation that smacks of hypocrisy. There were a lot of cheaters that got let off easier than the majority of forum members wanted. Once a bit more server and client tweaking is done, they are unlikely to cheat again. That should be the start and end of the matter.

Does anyone care to talk baseball?

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

It doesn't necessarily mean they will act like adults Bob, I think you give too much credit to the online factor in the gaming community. "Adults" can also force children to share. Treating a child like an adult isn't the best solution and most of these people despite their age act like children in regards to in game conduct. "Adults" long ago worked out standing in lines, waiting your turns at traffic lights, appointments, reservations and any number of things to make things go smoother and to avoid conflict or trouble. So we try to teach our children by making them share, making them wait their turn, make them do their homework before play etc etc. If they're children and their actions prove little else force them to wait in line force them to share.

[Mcbard]

The thing is, it would make sense for the top guilds to agree to a rotation because they'd get more mobs per minute that they spend playing the game, and would probably have more time to enjoy the game, level their alts, or just go outside.

What makes you think I want to do anything in this game besides kill dragons? Unless of course it's a naggy/vox alt I'm making.. :cool:

With a rotation I'm killing a whole lot less # of dragons every week. Me and most people who are used to raiding almost every night for dragons would probably just quit. Leveling alts isn't really what I've ever played EQ for.

[Lazortag]

What makes you think I want to do anything in this game besides kill dragons? Unless of course it's a naggy/vox alt I'm making.. :cool:

With a rotation I'm killing a whole lot less # of dragons every week. Me and most people who are used to raiding almost every night for dragons would probably just quit. Leveling alts isn't really what I've ever played EQ for.

Wouldn't you rather kill more bosses for the time you spend though? I mean really, would you rather spend an hour to kill one boss, or a day to kill two? Is it really your idea of "fun" to track a raid mob for two days in a row, or to poopsock a dragon's spawn point? The amount of time that's spent doing the aforementioned things on this server is about a hundred times more than any guild had to do in classic. I'm saying that the cost to being a high end raider on p99 is unfair for anyone with a life outside of EQ, so why is it relevant to the question of its fairness that you would get less dragons if you agreed to a rotation?

The people who would quit because they don't get to play the version of EQ that you seem to like are obviously in the minority. That version of EQ was invented on this server, it was never a requirement in classic, so I doubt there's a significant number of players who would be really bummed out if raid mobs didn't have absurdly long windows. It's clearly more in the server's interest to make the game less of a time commitment (provided it's classically accurate), so don't act like there'd be some huge exodus of players who are disappointed that they can't poopsock anymore.

[Mcbard]

Wouldn't you rather kill more bosses for the time you spend though? I mean really, would you rather spend an hour to kill one boss, or a day to kill two? Is it really your idea of "fun" to track a raid mob for two days in a row, or to poopsock a dragon's spawn point? The amount of time that's spent doing the aforementioned things on this server is about a hundred times more than any guild had to do in classic. I'm saying that the cost to being a high end raider on p99 is unfair for anyone with a life outside of EQ, so why is it relevant to the question of its fairness that you would get less dragons if you agreed to a rotation?

The people who would quit because they don't get to play the version of EQ that you seem to like are obviously in the minority. That version of EQ was invented on this server, it was never a requirement in classic, so I doubt there's a significant number of players who would be really bummed out if raid mobs didn't have absurdly long windows. It's clearly more in the server's interest to make the game less of a time commitment (provided it's classically accurate), so don't act like there'd be some huge exodus of players who are disappointed that they can't poopsock anymore.

To answer your first question, I would rather spend more time in order to get more mobs yes. I would not prefer to log on once every now and then (or when it's my turn in a "rotation) to kill a mob, I would prefer to put in a little work and kill them all of the time.

Secondly, the high end of the server is always in the minority, that's why there's so much competition to get there between players who play for that reason. Other games have adjusted for this to allow more casual players access to these things via things such as instancing (now everybody with a sufficient force can have a crack at things).

The only difference between this server and 12 years ago is that we've all done it before and know how it works, so there are a lot more people at the "high end" of the server.

In classic EverQuest, more casual players weren't typically getting raid mobs. On project 1999 players not willing to spend hours tracking/camped out ready at places aren't getting them either.

I guess I don't see what's so unclassic about that overall? These mobs were never intended for everybody to be killing in the first place. The only issue we have is more players that want to kill them. TBH, the only system that could ever keep players like myself, and more casual players both happy would be instancing so that everyone had their shot. That's not what EverQuest is.

[Lazortag]

On project 1999 players not willing to spend hours tracking/camped out ready at places aren't getting them either.

I guess I don't see what's so unclassic about that overall?

Really?

edit: by the way, I never suggested anything close to instancing or a completely equal rotation. I don't think guilds outside of TR or TMO should rotate on Trak, for example, since no other guild has killed Trak. But if my guild has proven it can kill another mob, it should have equal rights to that mob as any other guild that has killed it before. In classic the factor that determined whether a guild was worthy of rights to a mob wasn't whether they could mobilize to it at random times (except on server repops), it was whether they were capable of killing it. The fact that there's more guilds capable of killing these mobs on this server just means that the loot will be spread more thinly - big deal, get over it, that's how it would have worked in classic.

[KB_Trader]

Jesus the fervor that some of you defend your right to sit on a ledge hitting track for 4 days in a row is kind of fuckin' disturbing.

[Kyrus]

Jesus the fervor that some of you defend your right to sit on a ledge hitting track for 4 days in a row is kind of fuckin' disturbing.

I was thinking the same thing...I'm no where near close to raiding, but after reading some of these posts, I'd throw the word pathetic out there...

[Fromage]

What are you guys gonna do once VP is released? 6 Boss mobs in one zone, will they all be +/-48 hours? You guys can't even compromise on a zone with 1 raid mob in it, how the hell are you gonna handle VP?

You both going to race for named dragons? gonna train each other to be FTE? from what I remember, VP was a "you're on your own" zone, no GM intervention(unless it was a bug), are both guilds willing to risk lvl 60 accounts rotting because you can't fucking work out a rotation?

I'm honestly curious how TMO/TR will handle VP, and later on, TOV.

[Dr4z3r]

Jesus the fervor that some of you defend your right to sit on a ledge hitting track for 4 days in a row is kind of fuckin' disturbing.

1) Trakanon's window is 48 hours.
2) No one sits there for 48 hours straight.
3) Trakanon is the only mob that's actively camped. Every other raid mob is actively tracked in shifts by multiple people over the course of the window.

Weren't you in TMO? They really let you in without telling you this?

[Lazortag]

...
3) Trakanon is the only mob that's actively camped. Every other raid mob is actively tracked in shifts by multiple people over the course of the window....

The bolded part is definitely not true. For example, the last time I thought it would be a good idea to track a raid mob (not Trak), there was a guild with 30 people in the zone at all times, when the average population was probably no more than 50. I was there for maybe 8 hours while playing poker/mario kart/whatever, and their numbers never went down, so I just gave up. I'm not naming the guild because I have nothing against them personally and they've always been nice to me, but I'm just saying that this is what people have to deal with if they want to kill mobs with variance on this server.

[Drem]

are there a lot of corpses rotting here in the raid scene? i hope so

[Dr4z3r]

The bolded part is definitely not true. For example, the last time I thought it would be a good idea to track a raid mob (not Trak), there was a guild with 30 people in the zone at all times, when the average population was probably no more than 50. I was there for maybe 8 hours while playing poker/mario kart/whatever, and their numbers never went down, so I just gave up. I'm not naming the guild because I have nothing against them personally and they've always been nice to me, but I'm just saying that this is what people have to deal with if they want to kill mobs with variance on this server.

Would you say what mob/zone it was? I wouldn't be too surprised to see a guild do something like that in KC, where they just have members grouping in various parts of the zone, AFKing at the zone-in, etc., and only 4-6 people actually at the mob's spawn (i.e., "camping" it).

[Aadill]

Perhaps a definition of poopsocking needs to be cleared up: poopsocking should (and has) been defined as being online on the spawn point of a mob, fully buffed in order to immediately engage a mob (possibly with auto attack on) in attempts to have an immediate engage. This requires all players present to be sitting at their computer desk ready to attack. The term poopsocking implies you can't leave to go poop because you'll miss something in the game. While there have been instances of poopsocking, most players take turns in shifts on tracking mobs, playing near a mob's spawn area, or even being loged in at all.

Since the inception of Kunark, about the only mobs where players have ever actively waited for it to spawn are Trakanon and VS.

Trakanon is generally camped by logging players out at the ledge due to the otherwise high potential for leapfrogging when coming from the zoneline. This has been done by both guilds for quite some time and is nothing new or even debilitating seeing as the majority of the players are 60 and most don't care about experience or droppable loot (some do and they play other characters while their mains are camped out). Leapfrogging on this server has always been an issue. Camping at the ledge simply removed it from the equation. Trakanon is camped by both guilds by logging out at the ledge. A tracker or group of trackers in the form of an xp group maintain a presence close to Trak's lair to alert either guild of Trakanon spawning. Only on one occasion has there been an actual poopsocking of Trakanon where everyone stayed logged in and buffed with autoattack on on top of his spawn. The window is so short that it's easy to get tied up in the zone very often and sometimes people play for long periods of time because there is a good chance of having the mob spawn during that window.

Venril Sathir is actively camped by XP groups in the area or in the sewers at Verix Kyloxs' camp since a VP key piece is located there. Venril Sathir has been poopsocked on a few occasions but generally only at the end of his window. Karnor's Castle is considered the go-to zone for guild-wide transport around Kunark. That is a tactic that you can find from many online sources and consequently why you generally find a large number of players from both guilds there regardless of the status of Venril Sathir's window.

There are no "4 day long poopsock fests" where players are at their computer ready to go within half a second. That was last summer and has long been gone. As of now, some level of tracking work is put into raiding and sometimes characters get surrendered in the interest of getting a mob kill but no one is looking to sit logged in all day every day. If you want actual poopsocking look no further than Sony's latest progression server. Last time I looked at Fippy it was in way worse condition where everyone DID stay logged in and Shadowknights were used to instantly HT a boss with the assisted use of MQ. Even worse, they were still using the first 15 in zone rule to enforce claim.

So yeah, is this classic? No... but the raid scene has a lot of petitions because neither side is willing to back down in thinking they had FTE on a mob. Both guilds are ready to go within seconds of each other for the most part, and with FTE as the only rule it's only a matter of having some method to know ahead of time so both guilds don't go attacking a mob and THEN go about petitioning. The best fix for that would be for the mob to have a shout when engaged. The first person on the agro list would get it and then everyone know who should be attacking the mob. That was proposed a long long long time ago and it never happened (although I could be imagining it so let me go look this up).

[Lazortag]

Aadill, you're very smart and a lot of what you said is true. I especially agree about Fippy being in a far unhealthier state than our server, and you're right to clarify what poopsocking actually is, and how there's less of it.

Still, like I said, the "entry cost" to the upper-end of the raid scene is still way too high. It's too high both by the standard of what was expected in classic and by the standard of how much time the average person can reasonably devote to this game. Even if you don't need to have your whole guild sit on a spawn point for 4 days, you sometimes need trackers to track mobs for that long, which has proven to be very unhealthy for the server. Most aspiring high-end guilds just don't have the numbers to devote to taking shifts tracking mobs at every hour of the day. Most casual raid guilds don't have enough european players in their roster to even be able to track mobs early in the morning, so they just don't even bother to track at all, since it would be such a huge waste of time if a mob spawned when no one was up (plus it would be hard to get a TOD so you'd often waste time tracking the mob after it died). Do you see how that can be discouraging? And to top it all of, this was never how it worked in classic. Back then you had to devote a lot of time to the game, sure, but you never had to make one of your guildies go through a 96 hour tracking shift just so you can get a chance at dragon loot.

[Skope]

you're both walking in circles and missing the crux of the argument

The 4-day windows were introduced to combat something that's a "natural" aspect of the game, but it's entirely fallen short of its intended purpose and today serves absolutely no purpose at all. Done. That's it.

If you want to know how to compete/abuse then this is how it's impacted the server:

It's forced guilds to mass recruit or devote entirely too much time or a combination of the two.

It's caused severe paleness among the top two raiding guilds.

With FTE -- and even during poopsock -- the amount of GM intervention required hasn't subsided and it's only caused more animosity between the two groups of pasty individuals.

It's caused those guilds/people that could potentially have provided competition during live to fall behind because of a useless server rule.

The only real pro at this point is that it decreases the "potential" amount of /petitions, and i say potential VERY loosely as even with the 4-day windows you buttheads keep butting heads.

[Mcbard]

I agree with what you said, my only question is how: how do you "fix" that problem via a game mechanic or social construct that A) benifits everyone, and B) is more inline with classic EverQuest?

Edit: directed at giga

[Lazortag]

I agree with what you said, my only question is how: how do you "fix" that problem via a game mechanic or social construct that A) benifits everyone, and B) is more inline with classic EverQuest?

Edit: directed at giga

Well, my idea might be a bit crazy (and I've already said it), but here is is again: reduce the variance significantly, have guilds rotate on mobs that they've killed before (doesn't have to be GM-enforced, can just be a gentleman's agreement), but make server repops fair game. For example: If Transatlantic Order has killed Nagafen, Inny, and CT, and The Mystical Rampage has killed Vox, Inny and Faydedar, then they'd set up a calendar for Inny but TO would have exclusive rights to Naggy and CT, while TMR would have exclusive rights to Vox and Fay. But, if TMR kills Naggy on a server repop, then TO should share 1/2 of the Naggy's with them because TMR has proven that they can mobilize to Naggy and kill him fair and square.

edit: and don't call me giga

[Mcbard]

Well, my idea might be a bit crazy (and I've already said it), but here is is again: reduce the variance significantly, have guilds rotate on mobs that they've killed before (doesn't have to be GM-enforced, can just be a gentleman's agreement), but make server repops fair game. For example: If Transatlantic Order has killed Nagafen, Inny, and CT, and The Mystical Rampage has killed Vox, Inny and Faydedar, then they'd set up a calendar for Inny but TO would have exclusive rights to Naggy and CT, while TMR would have exclusive rights to Vox and Fay. But, if TMR kills Naggy on a server repop, then TO should share 1/2 of the Naggy's with them because TMR has proven that they can mobilize to Naggy and kill him fair and square.

edit: and don't call me giga

That doesn't benefit everyone though.

[Aadill]

That also breaks epic quests.

[Lazortag]

That doesn't benefit everyone though.

Sure it does. The ridiculous amount of time you spend tracking just for a ~50% chance at loot, you can now spend doing something productive! Plus you would still get the vast majority of mobs. You would get proportionally more mobs per minute that you play the game, so just think of it that way.

That also breaks epic quests.

How?

[Aadill]

How?

I'm fairly certain not everyone is going to hold hands and help other guilds with their epic quest pieces for mobs that they don't have rights to (I could be wrong but that's just my somewhat cynical observation) There would have to be other methods to beat out someone on a mob they have sole ownership of other than just server resets otherwise some epic quests for some guilds would never be finished.

EDIT: as far as the mention of time played vs loot won: honestly it's only a few minutes difference for some. Most of the time multiple people use tracker accounts and at best you're maybe sitting online on a level 60 character chatting up a storm or watchin movies for a few hours. There's not much to gain/be productive doing while tracking, yes.. but there's also not much reason to be productive on that particular character. Everyone else on the raid is logged out with an incapacitated character or may be out leveling in the same zone or on another character. It's not perfect but as far as the time sink goes it's not as large of a change as you may think. The majority of the time played actually comes from waiting on the pull and/or waiting for other guilds to kill it or wipe, which provides at least some level of competition. if we changed it to your method it would simply be a rotation EXCEPT on server repop days, limiting the amount of competition and further beefing up rotations PER MOB which would get really messy.*

*Assuming I understood the raid proposal correctly.

[Skope]

I'm fairly certain not everyone is going to hold hands and help other guilds with their epic quest pieces for mobs that they don't have rights to (I could be wrong but that's just my somewhat cynical observation) There would have to be other methods to beat out someone on a mob they have sole ownership of other than just server resets otherwise some epic quests for some guilds would never be finished.

EDIT: as far as the mention of time played vs loot won: honestly it's only a few minutes difference for some. Most of the time multiple people use tracker accounts and at best you're maybe sitting online on a level 60 character chatting up a storm or watchin movies for a few hours. There's not much to gain/be productive doing while tracking, yes.. but there's also not much reason to be productive on that particular character. Everyone else on the raid is logged out with an incapacitated character or may be out leveling in the same zone or on another character. It's not perfect but as far as the time sink goes it's not as large of a change as you may think. The majority of the time played actually comes from waiting on the pull and/or waiting for other guilds to kill it or wipe, which provides at least some level of competition.

as far as the 4 day windows, that plays in how? i think you mean to say that it doesn't.

I understand the arguments for and against a rule change... hell, people were practically spitting on me during a previous thread and then i had some of the same people pat me on the back for calling it like it was. But that's all besides the point. Any discussion regarding rules or even changes in the rules should be done after the 4-day variance is kicked. I've been trying to come up with a logical defense of it but have come up short for more than a year. It just doesn't make any sense anymore, if it ever made sense in the first place, and it's still here.

Babysteps.

[Mcbard]

Sure it does. The ridiculous amount of time you spend tracking just for a ~50% chance at loot, you can now spend doing something productive! Plus you would still get the vast majority of mobs. You would get proportionally more mobs per minute that you play the game, so just think of it that way.



How?

To me tracking isn't some nail biting chore that I spent 48 hour sessions doing as you described. As Aadill pointed out, that's not even close to the truth, we rotate and track when we can. It's not really "that bad". I'm tracking as I type this, and after I stop reading interwebs I'm going to work on some stuff in xcode4 and do some homework.

Seriously, it's not hard. If I didn't want mobs all of the time then I wouldn't do it.. so the whole "mobs per minute thing" is a moot point.

[Lazortag]

If it isn't so draining, why doesn't every other raid capable guild do it? Just because you have no life outside of the game doesn't mean it's easy for every other guild to be able to take shifts tracking mobs. At this point you probably wouldn't get enough people willing to waste that much time in any single guild aside from TR/TMO. It's also entirely irrelevant that you spread the 48 hours (this is an average, by the way - sometimes it's more, and this is only for one raid mob) amongst your guildies - that's still 48 hours of time completely wasted, and I think you can understand why other guilds shouldn't be expected to make that same sacrifice just for the possibility of pixels. It's important that I emphasize that this is done so that you can get a chance at a raid mob - it's not even guaranteed, so all that time (which for a lot of people really is a huge time commitment) might just be for nothing. That's not fun at all, that's not classic, and like Skope said it hasn't made the server any healthier.

edit: also, Aadill, it's kind of ludicrous to argue that casual guilds would have LESS of a chance of their members completing their epics if there were some kind of rotation, since these guilds would be getting more mobs than before. Don't act like the current ruleset somehow empowers the less hardcore players.

[Aadill]

Any discussion regarding rules or even changes in the rules should be done after the 4-day variance is kicked.

As far as tracking goes it would be non-existant with zero variance. Without variance there is no possibility for non-US based raid guilds to have a timezone advantage over US based raid guilds or vice versa, as all mobs would spawn at a very specific time and only shift out a few minutes at a time. This would not promote fair competition between guilds. That's a downfall I see to NO variance. I do believe the variance is too much and could be shortened only if the 15 man rule is permanently removed.

As far as the rotation system you suggested: it seems complex to me. If I'm reading it correctly the only way to be added to a rotation is to beat all guilds that currently have ownership of the mob, otherwise it's an understood agreement between them to alternate on the kills (except in the case of sole ownership). This "in" would only occur on server resets, which may or may not occur on a regular basis. At that point you're racing for rights once instead of the mob every time.

Sole ownership of a mob also limits other guild's abilities to work on their epics. If it's understood and enforced that a guild with sole ownership has full rights to it until a server reset then absolutely no epic pieces would be given out to another guild, and that guild wouldn't even have to race to go destroy the loot (if they so chose).

[Skope]

Classic variance, then slowly work out the rest. The 15 FTE rule is garbage and only promotes dirty socks, and considering the difficulty of kunark mobs it's also incredibly unrealistic and outdated.

[Nirgon]

Sounds like there is gonna be some P in VP.

[Aadill]

Sounds like there is gonna be some P in VP.

It'd be nice to know if VP was working on a single spawn time or if each mob is to have it's own variance.

[Duie]

Another posablility is to be given a chance at said mob w/ the loot still going to the guild that had that time slot in the rotation if said guild did happen to kill it.

An even more feasable posablility would to have a Test Mob spawned w/ no loot for the guild who wanted to be in rotation.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Most of the time multiple people use tracker accounts and at best you're maybe sitting online on a level 60 character chatting up a storm or watchin movies for a few hours. There's not much to gain/be productive doing while tracking, yes.. but there's also not much reason to be productive on that particular character. Everyone else on the raid is logged out with an incapacitated character or may be out leveling in the same zone or on another character.

READ: your raid force and tracker tethered to a 100-foot radius of their computer for the duration of the target window. So they can clock in, kill the dragon, and clock back out. Because that's what this 'game' has been watered down to.

[Mcbard]

If it isn't so draining, why doesn't every other raid capable guild do it? Just because you have no life outside of the game doesn't mean it's easy for every other guild to be able to take shifts tracking mobs. At this point you probably wouldn't get enough people willing to waste that much time in any single guild aside from TR/TMO. It's also entirely irrelevant that you spread the 48 hours (this is an average, by the way - sometimes it's more, and this is only for one raid mob) amongst your guildies - that's still 48 hours of time completely wasted, and I think you can understand why other guilds shouldn't be expected to make that same sacrifice just for the possibility of pixels. It's important that I emphasize that this is done so that you can get a chance at a raid mob - it's not even guaranteed, so all that time (which for a lot of people really is a huge time commitment) might just be for nothing. That's not fun at all, that's not classic, and like Skope said it hasn't made the server any healthier.

edit: also, Aadill, it's kind of ludicrous to argue that casual guilds would have LESS of a chance of their members completing their epics if there were some kind of rotation, since these guilds would be getting more mobs than before. Don't act like the current ruleset somehow empowers the less hardcore players.

Ya dude, I have no life. Nobody who tracks does. Great generalization. It couldn't just perhaps be that the time you see as "wasted" is just what we consider doing business. Most of us literally have no other reason to play our characters, do you understand this? I would rather spend 5 hours tracking a mob and surfing the web then I would 5 hours logged on my main camping some item for platinum, because above all else, I would rather spend time in this game killing dragons. Not playing an alt or sitting in EC tunnel. I guess you don't understand this.

A rotation negatively impacts people in the guilds already getting mobs because now they get to kill them, or at least have the chance to kill them a whole lot less. That's why your idea doesn't work, it doesn't benefit everybody. It only benefits those who don't want to spend time tracking mobs currently. End of story.

In regards to it not being classic, I agree, variance isn't classic but neither is the P99 playerbase.

Really any debating about it further is just sending us in circles. I understand that you A) want to kill dragons, and B) don't want to spend anytime tracking them. You don't seem to understand that your idea doesn't A) benefit everyone, and B) isn't "more classic" then what we currently have, so I don't see how it's a relevant solution.

Edit: To answer your first question btw: simply put because they don't want to and it's not what they enjoy? The reward isn't worth the effort they would need to put in. That's not how they enjoy the game. Same reason I'm not leveling an alt all day.

[Lazortag]

As far as tracking goes it would be non-existant with zero variance. Without variance there is no possibility for non-US based raid guilds to have a timezone advantage over US based raid guilds or vice versa, as all mobs would spawn at a very specific time and only shift out a few minutes at a time. This would not promote fair competition between guilds. That's a downfall I see to NO variance. I do believe the variance is too much and could be shortened only if the 15 man rule is permanently removed.

As far as the rotation system you suggested: it seems complex to me. If I'm reading it correctly the only way to be added to a rotation is to beat all guilds that currently have ownership of the mob, otherwise it's an understood agreement between them to alternate on the kills (except in the case of sole ownership). This "in" would only occur on server resets, which may or may not occur on a regular basis. At that point you're racing for rights once instead of the mob every time.

Sole ownership of a mob also limits other guild's abilities to work on their epics. If it's understood and enforced that a guild with sole ownership has full rights to it until a server reset then absolutely no epic pieces would be given out to another guild, and that guild wouldn't even have to race to go destroy the loot (if they so chose).

A lot of those mobs would be really easy to race to since the primary target of TR/TMO on server resets is Trak. If they want Trak, well obviously it's going to be tough to mobilize to Trak before TR/TMO do, but intuitively that seems fair. Also, I think you're really underestimating how many of the casual raid guilds have killed bosses that drop epic pieces. I'm pretty sure each of these guilds has a white and a red dragon under their belt, and if they don't, well, Vox and Naggy usually aren't TR/TMO's first priority on server resets, so this would be a pretty easy hurdle to get around.

The reason I suggested server repops as a means to getting added to the rotation is actually because I thought it would be fairer to the top two guilds. Otherwise you'd just have guilds poopsocking Trak to be added to the rotation, which hardly seems fair. I guess that's what happened on most classic servers (if I'm to believe what people say), but I don't think socking a raid mob is proof that you're worthy of rights to it.

What you mentioned in the first paragraph is probably true, which is why I said "significantly reduce the variance", not "eliminate it entirely", though I guess Skope is in favor of just eliminating it so maybe you were responding to him. I think non-US guilds should get a slice of the pie too since project 1999 is only one server and so we're going to have people from all sorts of different time zones.

Either way, I've gone into more detail about my little suggestion than I wanted to, I don't think my idea is the best in the world and just reducing the variance would alone be a huge step for the health of the raid scene, so I'm glad we at least sort of agree on that.


An even more feasable posablility would to have a Test Mob spawned w/ no loot for the guild who wanted to be in rotation.

I really don't think this would be fair to guilds who have had previous success on this server. There still needs to be some kind of competition, just not the way we have it now.

[Spectre]

Btw Foxx, 6'5" 250pds is hardly fat.

actually it is. http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/ :eek:

[Nivar Quartz]

Perhaps a definition of poopsocking needs to be cleared up: poopsocking should (and has) been defined as being online on the spawn point of a mob, fully buffed in order to immediately engage a mob (possibly with auto attack on) in attempts to have an immediate engage. This requires all players present to be sitting at their computer desk ready to attack. The term poopsocking implies you can't leave to go poop because you'll miss something in the game. While there have been instances of poopsocking, most players take turns in shifts on tracking mobs, playing near a mob's spawn area, or even being loged in at all.

Since the inception of Kunark, about the only mobs where players have ever actively waited for it to spawn are Trakanon and VS.

Trakanon is generally camped by logging players out at the ledge due to the otherwise high potential for leapfrogging when coming from the zoneline. This has been done by both guilds for quite some time and is nothing new or even debilitating seeing as the majority of the players are 60 and most don't care about experience or droppable loot (some do and they play other characters while their mains are camped out). Leapfrogging on this server has always been an issue. Camping at the ledge simply removed it from the equation. Trakanon is camped by both guilds by logging out at the ledge. A tracker or group of trackers in the form of an xp group maintain a presence close to Trak's lair to alert either guild of Trakanon spawning. Only on one occasion has there been an actual poopsocking of Trakanon where everyone stayed logged in and buffed with autoattack on on top of his spawn. The window is so short that it's easy to get tied up in the zone very often and sometimes people play for long periods of time because there is a good chance of having the mob spawn during that window.

Venril Sathir is actively camped by XP groups in the area or in the sewers at Verix Kyloxs' camp since a VP key piece is located there. Venril Sathir has been poopsocked on a few occasions but generally only at the end of his window. Karnor's Castle is considered the go-to zone for guild-wide transport around Kunark. That is a tactic that you can find from many online sources and consequently why you generally find a large number of players from both guilds there regardless of the status of Venril Sathir's window.

There are no "4 day long poopsock fests" where players are at their computer ready to go within half a second. That was last summer and has long been gone. As of now, some level of tracking work is put into raiding and sometimes characters get surrendered in the interest of getting a mob kill but no one is looking to sit logged in all day every day. If you want actual poopsocking look no further than Sony's latest progression server. Last time I looked at Fippy it was in way worse condition where everyone DID stay logged in and Shadowknights were used to instantly HT a boss with the assisted use of MQ. Even worse, they were still using the first 15 in zone rule to enforce claim.

So yeah, is this classic? No... but the raid scene has a lot of petitions because neither side is willing to back down in thinking they had FTE on a mob. Both guilds are ready to go within seconds of each other for the most part, and with FTE as the only rule it's only a matter of having some method to know ahead of time so both guilds don't go attacking a mob and THEN go about petitioning. The best fix for that would be for the mob to have a shout when engaged. The first person on the agro list would get it and then everyone know who should be attacking the mob. That was proposed a long long long time ago and it never happened (although I could be imagining it so let me go look this up).

On pooping, a poop rotation is thinking outside the box/bowl.