Questioning GM Decisions

[Hasbinbad]

I've noticed that there are quite a few threads going around in several forums which openly question the GM decision regarding the recent suite of 3rd party program users. This, I believe, affects the server's health as a whole, hence my posting in Server Chat. My main concern is that these kinds of posts will affect the way a new player sees this community negatively, turning them away from Project 1999 because of supposed cheating or corruption when such cheating has been summarily dealt with and the corruption has been deemed not to exist. Even if these things were in question, they would be indicative of the morals and actions of a few individuals rather than the server as a whole.

Why aren't these issues being dealt with in the proper manner, outlined by the people who run this server?

Why aren't the individuals responsible for various slanders and the obvious intent of mayhem against the population of Project 1999 being dealt with?

In the Rants, Flames, and NSFW forum there is a thread titled "GM Decisions." (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3278) In that thread, I believe the official policy is:
Lets get one thing straight folks. We don't answer to you.
and
Any dialog between a GM and a player can be considered a private matter, and will not be open to public debate.
and
We make decisions based on our best judgement, with no favoritism for any play character connections, so you will have to trust in our opinions for the health of the server.
I'm just a little curious as to why posts containing questions regarding GM Decisions on this particular issue are allowed to continue unmolested. I'm especially curious in this matter as I have been unable to question GM Decisions publically in the past, and I'm sure many others have been so unable as well.

Rogean goes on to state:
You are welcome to report anything you may believe to be unjustified use of GM privileges to the petition forum or Nilbog and myself, but this would only be in situations where you believe a GM did not act as they are instructed so, and an investigation may occur, but do not think that this suddenly privies you to all information associated with any decision.
If this is the correct way to request oversight regarding a GM Decision, why aren't people being directed to do so rather than continue to spam the various forums about it?

Is the freedom of people to speak their mind - in a manner which has been prohibited, and when the proper manner has been outlined - worth the negative impact this campaign is probably having on this community?

No. People have said their piece and more. They have rattled their cages and then some. Nobody benefits from allowing this to continue, no matter what your stance is. I suggest that further posts calling into question the decisions of the GM Staff be deleted or archived separately, and that these posters be given instructions to raise grievances in the proper manner. I further suggest that repercussions for further violations of the rules be detailed and enforced. Everyone sees why this situation is different, but the rules of the forums shouldn't be set aside because a group of people want to raise questions and cause havoc about how the rules of the game are being enforced.

[XgrimX]

first!

[Littlegyno]

tldr praise emperor rogean and lady angel nilbog in dealing with the "one who cannot be named" and hackers.

[Littlegyno]

douchebag

uncalled for. This thread is for stopping people questioning Emperor Rogean's and Lady Angel Nilbog's divine judgements.

[mitic]

i forsee a 100page thread

[Hasbinbad]

Can the Mod's mod the posters and not the thread so that this stays in Server Chat please?

[Vermicelli]

So anyway, disregarding the posts already made by trolls in this thread, I agree with everything Hasbinbad posted in the OP.

Is it possible for a moderator to restrict some forum accounts to only be able to post in Rants n Flames? Coz there are some accounts that surely only post that quality of material.

[Ihealyou]

Putting a post on the front page about the bannings made it a public matter, and opened it to debate. You could argue that issues regarding individual bannings should be kept private, but people are talking about the policy as a whole. If the GMs wanted to keep it between themselves and the banned players, they could have done so.

Plus, deleting posts would just make it worse.

[Lazortag]

A lot of people are rightly outraged with the punishment that was chosen. I mean, does it really make sense to punish someone more because they liquidated their valuable items, and to punish someone else less because they spent all of their plat on items the day before they got banned? People are continuing to question the decision that was made because they feel like something might actually change. I'm sure the staff would like some feedback as to whether their punishment was appropriate as well.

I actually agree with most of the punishment (except that valuable items should probably be stripped from offending characters as well), but I can see why the staff would continue to let people question whether it was harsh enough.

[Hasbinbad]

Putting a post on the front page about the bannings made it a public matter, and opened it to debate. You could argue that issues regarding individual bannings should be kept private, but people are talking about the policy as a whole. If the GMs wanted to keep it between themselves and the banned players, they could have done so.

Plus, deleting posts would just make it worse.
They put it public to inform us, not to invite us to question them.

Allowing the server to see that punishments were handed out and giving fair warning for the future is not the same as setting aside the rules of the forum. I'm sorry Uuur, but your logic is simply not sound.

[Demetrium]

Honestly not sure if this is a troll thread, pandering to GMs, or an actual question.

Do you seriously want to play on a server where you can't voice your opinion in public? I don't. The largest obvious advantage is being able to see if you're in the minority or majority. When everyone files their opinions separately via the petition forum or private message you get no feedback or constructive criticism.

There's obviously proper ways to say you disagree with the management. Even so, after reading your post I can't really interpret it as anything but absurd. I think the GMs are adult enough to be able to take feedback with a grain of salt. Are they really management material if they can't?

[Deuces]

I think people shouldnt question the GM's decisions , but people should still call out the cheaters and hackers when they become known.

[Hasbinbad]

A lot of people are rightly outraged with the punishment that was chosen.
That is the crux of what this entire post is about.

You are totally entitled to feel that way. I am not begrudging you that right. However, the proper method for raising grievances has been outlined, and I think that should be followed, rather than a group of people on this server being given the de facto right to slander the staff and certain players willy nilly.

New people might see digest this information differently than people who have been here a while. For instance, I see this as just another rogue wave on our journey. It will eventually be cleared up. However, if I was new I might see these kinds of posts and determine on false or hyperbolic evidence that the staff of this server was corrupt and just skip it. That is not healthy for any of us, as we need new players to keep up an already small population.

[Vermicelli]

New people might see digest this information differently than people who have been here a while. For instance, I see this as just another rogue wave on our journey. It will eventually be cleared up. However, if I was new I might see these kinds of posts and determine on false or hyperbolic evidence that the staff of this server was corrupt and just skip it. That is not healthy for any of us, as we need new players to keep up an already small population.

Quote for extreme relevance.

[Hasbinbad]

Do you seriously want to play on a server where you can't voice your opinion in public?
No, and I don't think if it was someone voicing their opinion that this would even be in question. Rather than voicing an opinion, this is an organized effort to damage the server, and that - i think - should be stopped.

IRL, there is a huge difference between a peaceful protest and a looter-driven riot. While this situation is hardly as dire, you have people basically howling at the moon and demanding blood. Nothing good can come of this, and these issues - which I am not debating the validity of - should be dealt with in the proper manner, rather than having an active mob drive away decent old players and prospective new players.

Let alone developers. Sheesh.

[nilbog]

Thread cleaned.

Those of you you were suspended, reasons displayed. Those whose comments were deleted, do not do it again.

1. Warning
2. Suspension
3. Ban

Depending on what you say, it is possible to skip directly past 1 and be suspended or banned. Moderator discretion.

[Demetrium]

No, and I don't think if it was someone voicing their opinion that this would even be in question. Rather than voicing an opinion, this is an organized effort to damage the server, and that - i think - should be stopped.

IRL, there is a huge difference between a peaceful protest and a looter-driven riot. While this situation is hardly as dire, you have people basically howling at the moon and demanding blood. Nothing good can come of this, and these issues - which I am not debating the validity of - should be dealt with in the proper manner, rather than having an active mob drive away decent old players and prospective new players.

Let alone developers. Sheesh.

Flames threads should be moved to the flames forum. This is far from a new rule. Like you mention there's a huge difference between a peaceful protest and a looter-driven riot. The moderators should be able to see this huge difference quite quickly and do what needs to be done.

Maybe you should have rethought the title of this thread. The "don't question the GM's" school of thought is pretty Orwellian/ridiculous.

[Skope]

I've never kept quiet. The fact is the GMs and staff here make mistakes just like the players do. Any rule forcing people to keep hush hush even when they see errors being made is completely ridiculous. The forum rule is there to make sure players don't go overboard and start whining incessantly over stupid shit where they're clearly wrong and the GMs/staff don't wanna hear about it. I've mouthed off to uthgaard and bumamgar and I think with the way both situations panned out i was right on both accounts. Bumamgar being added to the staff turned out to be, i think, one of the worst decisions the staff has ever made. Uthgaard not clamping down on petitions with guilds turned out (if you believe his post) not to be his fault at all. Of all the posts I've made I've never received a warning. I'll admit i'm belligerent, but at least i talk some damn sense. Keeping quiet when there's a point to be made is about as idiotic as you can get, even if it means calling out guides/GMs on their decisions.


Edited out your rants. You can take it to rants and flames. Not here.

[Daldaen]

I think you're misquoting rogean. He was speaking to quite specific cases about entity x training entity y or entity z boxing etc. The majority of the decision questioning as of late was relating to 300 some accounts temporarily banned... A very substantial part of the server. And they were very clear that everyone caught was undisputedly using SEQ or MQ while logged onto P99.

From what I've read the extent at which they used these varied from person to person and that falls into the "you don't know all the facts so stfu" quote rogean has... But what we do know is what was posted, people used those programs that are explicitly banned... And they slapped a 2week ban, removed 60% of their exp and all their coin.

People felt that was too light and they are allowed to in my opinion because the facts are pretty clear on what transpired.

As for the raiding threads all of it is bs. Turn on raid window that allows groups to band together and let their DPS count as a single entity. Have no GM intervention, then let the guilds work it out between them. If two guilds reach a mob at the same time the most DPS wins. Not just a group of six wizards but the entire guild needs to burn if thy want it.

[Littlegyno]

Thread cleaned.

Those of you you were suspended, reasons displayed. Those whose comments were deleted, do not do it again.

1. Warning
2. Suspension
3. Ban

Depending on what you say, it is possible to skip directly past 1 and be suspended or banned. Moderator discretion.

Thank you Lady Angel Nilbog for your help. Together we can overcome these trolls.

[Roanoke]

That is the crux of what this entire post is about.

You are totally entitled to feel that way. I am not begrudging you that right. However, the proper method for raising grievances has been outlined, and I think that should be followed, rather than a group of people on this server being given the de facto right to slander the staff and certain players willy nilly.

New people might see digest this information differently than people who have been here a while. For instance, I see this as just another rogue wave on our journey. It will eventually be cleared up. However, if I was new I might see these kinds of posts and determine on false or hyperbolic evidence that the staff of this server was corrupt and just skip it. That is not healthy for any of us, as we need new players to keep up an already small population.

Agreed. I have gone to the extent of telling new players that I run into to avoid the forums at all costs, as it will only be detrimental to your attitude about P99. This thread alone is a perfect example so far. There's a place and time for trolling, but this is getting out of hand.

It's unfortunate that the server forums are so poorly moderated (more like understaffed I think, Guineapig does an excellent job when available it seems) and the trolls are allowed to run rampant and shit up every thread that's being created whether it's about the recent suspensions or not. One word replies and shit like "fat" belong in RnF and should stay there. Users who abuse their privileges to post here should be treated accordingly.

If it isn't a thread about the recent suspensions it's a thread about how Red99 is better than everyone else. We either need to start having these posts moderated or put a giant disclaimer at the beginning on every post that states "THE OPINIONS POSTED HERE DO NOT REFLECT THOSE OF THE SERVER POPULATION, PLEASE IGNORE THE FOLLOWING STUPIDITY:"

I realize the point of trolling is to ruin the fun for everyone else at your own amusement, but for fucks sake people, you're taking it too far.

There's a forum that's been around for a long time called General Mayhem- they had a 'jail' sub-forum called the Kiddie Corral. If you were a shitty poster and did nothing but try to troll threads you would be thrown into the KC for a determined amount of time (mods discretion, though you could donate money to the forum and put people in the KC). Literal forum time-out. You couldn't post or view any other forums until your sentence was over. It worked quite well.

[nilbog]

If anything, this thread turned out to be a great reason to get more moderators.. just to delete rant posts from server chat and ban people who can't distinguish between the two.

Thanks for showing me that, Hasbinbad and trolls.

[Hasbinbad]

I've never kept quiet. The fact is the GMs and staff here make mistakes just like the players do. Any rule forcing people to keep hush hush even when they see errors being made is completely ridiculous. The forum rule is there to make sure players don't go overboard and start whining incessantly over stupid shit where they're clearly wrong and the GMs/staff don't wanna hear about it. I've mouthed off to uthgaard and bumamgar and I think with the way both situations panned out i was right on both accounts. Bumamgar being added to the staff turned out to be, i think, one of the worst decisions the staff has ever made. Uthgaard not clamping down on petitions with guilds turned out (if you believe his post) not to be his fault at all. Of all the posts I've made I've never received a warning. I'll admit i'm belligerent, but at least i talk some damn sense. Keeping quiet when there's a point to be made is about as idiotic as you can get, even if it means calling out guides/GMs on their decisions.
Skope, I don't think anyone can try and accuse me of keeping my mouth shut, so trust me, I feel you. However there is a big difference between speaking yout mind and using repetition as propaganda with the method being used to the server's ultimate detriment. There is a way to handle this at this point, and spamming the forums as much as possible for a wipe or further punishment for a GM Decision that you don't agree with doesn't help anyone. The fact of the matter is that this forum does not guarantee you freedom of speech, it is usually a privilege here, a privilege that is being sorely taken advantage of.
In fact I think it's gotten so bad that I can't play here anymore.
I feel bad for you man, because I understand where you're coming from on that, but you need to recognize that harming the server isn't going to solve anything. We need to do what we can to change the server for the better or realize that maybe we didn't find exactly what we were looking for here and move on without trying to ruin it for everyone.

[Skope]

they weren't rants, i was citing examples. and if you're going to edit the previous posts out, the last paragraph sort of reiterates my point and should have been left alone. it's a point that i think many people have been making and it's fallen on deaf ears. Let me try it with direct examples citing what the hell i'm on about.

I don't see myself playing on a server where the rules are applied differently to certain guilds (TR still hasn't been suspended for their third-party program use in a raid situation. In fact DA even received a guild-wide raid suspension over an incident that had nothing to do with raiding) and where cheaters are welcomed back with a slap on the wrist (whereas before you banned them permanently outright). Maybe they're mistakes that'll get sorted out, but it's certainly inconsistent and only invites more future criticism.

[Hasbinbad]

I think you're misquoting rogean.
I don't think I am. I think the import of that post is that the GM's are sick and tired of having everything they do questioned by the very people they are trying to help. Invariably, with every situation that involves a GM Decision, someone ends up being unhappy. You cannot please everyone, all of the time, nor should you try. It's hard enough being in their position, having to make decisions like these, without having the fucking peanut gallery tell them how corrupt they are for doing so while they are simultaneously working their asses off to make a fun game for everyone.
People felt that was too light and they are allowed to in my opinion because the facts are pretty clear on what transpired.
They are totally allowed to feel that way. Nobody is arguing that. I am arguing that at a certain point, posts should be moderated when they no longer serve a useful purpose to the server. If the point they were trying to make didn't bear fruit, then they should escalate the matter up the proper channels, not stand around waving torches and shouting. Nobody benefits from that.

[nilbog]

I don't see myself playing on a server where the rules are applied differently to certain guilds (TR still hasn't been suspended for their third-party program use in a raid situation. In fact DA even received a guild-wide raid suspension over an incident that had nothing to do with raiding) and where cheaters are welcomed back with a slap on the wrist (whereas before you banned them permanently outright). Maybe they're mistakes that'll get sorted out, but it's certainly inconsistent and only invites more future criticism.

Sounds like you're complaining, tbh. "Not going to play here for reasons x and y." Am I wrong?

[Roanoke]

If anything, this thread turned out to be a great reason to get more moderators.. just to delete rant posts from server chat and ban people who can't distinguish between the two.

Thanks for showing me that, Hasbinbad and trolls.

Thank you for cleaning this thread up.

To the people who are playing the "freedom of speech" card. The same thing goes for how you should deal with your opinion about GM decisions.

WE do not pay to play here. WE do not make final decisions. WE are not playing democracy here. The fact that the forums and server are up should be more than enough to keep people respectful of the hard work the Devs put in FOR FREE.

Forums and the P1999 server have rules. If Nilbog and Rogean decided one day that "only players who have a 45+ female troll Shadowknights may post on the forums" then so be it, they pay the bills, they make the final decisions.

And don't even start with "but I donated!" I donate to charity all the time, do I expect to be able to walk down to the nearest homeless shelter and boss people around because I've donated my time there before? No. The world doesn't work that way and neither does P99.

GM=GAME MASTER

Think about it.

[Skope]

I feel bad for you man, because I understand where you're coming from on that, but you need to recognize that harming the server isn't going to solve anything. We need to do what we can to change the server for the better or realize that maybe we didn't find exactly what we were looking for here and move on without trying to ruin it for everyone.

It's not unreasonable. Why is it even being debated?

Treat all players the same.
All the rules apply to everyone equally.
The GMs should enforce the rules they themselves established and the rules should be clear.

Right now it's people like me getting dicked over and it's gotten to a point where I'm willing to throw all the pretty little pixels I've gotten down the toilet. it isn't a decision i've made overnight in a rampage but something i've been noticing for over a year now. Hell, i even asked frankly if there was a chance the cheaters would be permabanned or a harsher decision is on the table atm? Would they rethink their decision? Because if the answer is no i'll spare nilbog the trouble and delete my forum account right now.

[Demetrium]

I don't think I am. I think the import of that post is that the GM's are sick and tired of having everything they do questioned by the very people they are trying to help. Invariably, with every situation that involves a GM Decision, someone ends up being unhappy. You cannot please everyone, all of the time, nor should you try. It's hard enough being in their position, having to make decisions like these, without having the fucking peanut gallery tell them how corrupt they are for doing so while they are simultaneously working their asses off to make a fun game for everyone.

They are totally allowed to feel that way. Nobody is arguing that. I am arguing that at a certain point, posts should be moderated when they no longer serve a useful purpose to the server. If the point they were trying to make didn't bear fruit, then they should escalate the matter up the proper channels, not stand around waving torches and shouting. Nobody benefits from that.

Your tone/message is extremely wishy-washy throughout this thread. Do you think people should be able to question GM decisions civilly via threads and polls or not?

[Hasbinbad]

It's not unreasonable. Why is it even being debated?

Treat all players the same.
All the rules apply to everyone equally.
The GMs should enforce the rules they themselves established and the rules should be clear.

Right now it's people like me getting dicked over and it's gotten to a point where I'm willing to throw all the pretty little pixels I've gotten down the toilet. it isn't a decision i've made overnight in a rampage but something i've been noticing for over a year now. Hell, i even asked frankly if there was a chance the cheaters would be permabanned or a harsher decision is on the table atm? Would they rethink their decision? Because if the answer is no i'll spare nilbog the trouble and delete my forum account right now.
While you may have several valid points here, none of this has anything to do with the point of this thread, which is that posts questioning GM Decisions and rabble-rousing because of those decisions to the detriment of the server should be moderated.

[Skope]

Sounds like you're complaining, tbh. "Not going to play here for reasons x and y." Am I wrong?

there's a difference between pointless whining and a player who's played here a long time noticing some mistakes being made on your part. In fact, the mistakes are so grave that i'm willing to walk away. that's not complaining, that's someone who's clearly given some thought to this

And yes, hbb, it does. it's posts like this that should be allowed to stay in GC and not be redirected to RnF or not be made at all.

[Deuces]

I have had RL friends who got on the forums and have said that p99 isnt for them. They think certain guilds get treated better then others and get a bad opinon from the thread trolls as well. It's hard to find a middle ground.

[Hasbinbad]

Your tone/message is extremely wishy-washy throughout this thread. Do you think people should be able to question GM decisions civilly via threads and polls or not?
My tone is not wishy washy. I am stating what I feel very clearly.

As to your question, yes generally, I think people should be able to enjoy the privilege of saying what they want to, as long as it doesn't violate the forum rules and doesn't impinge on the rest of the population's privilege of playing on this server. The posts regarding corruption, server wipes, and alternative punishments have been seen by everyone who is going to see them at this point, and serve no further purpose. Continuation down this path leads to nothing but sorrow. The staff of this server has been more than lenient thus far, and that leniency has been rewarded with hate and mob mentality rather than restraint and civil discussion. At a certain point this needs to be recognized.

[Roanoke]

Your tone/message is extremely wishy-washy throughout this thread. Do you think people should be able to question GM decisions civilly via threads and polls or not?

I think his point is more or less that the majority of people who post on the forums and question GM decisions are people who are doing it out of spite. In the last week there have been many threads that ALL said the same thing. Every day there are 5+ new threads. Nothing productive is coming out of any of them, and if players wish to question a GM or Dev decision they have a petition forum for that.


There's a HUGE difference between questioning a decision and outright being rude and disrespectful thinking it will change anyones opinion.

These threads DO have a direct impact on the game community. A few nights ago there was a thread created about how the server should be wiped. This sent a shockwave of "oh my god are they wiping the server!?" throughout the game. Every zone I was in had people /ooc-ing "are the GM's clearing the server?" It was a full scale panic. Luckily, Amelinda set everyone straight but the fact that it took a guide to log on and broadcast that nothing is happening is ridiculous. It should never have to escalate to that level.

[Rainflush]

The mutinous, eristic attitudes seen on these forums are unwarranted and disgraceful. Do you want your money back? This server is FREE, even if you don't necessarily agree with the judgement of the developers, you're playing on THEIR server, in which they invested time and money so YOU could play this game you liked so much at it's prime for FREE. Nobody is perfect, it's unreasonable to think the developers could please everyone. Spare us this "I will not be silenced" rubbish, this is a god-damn COMPUTER GAME and it's LIKE 12 YEARS OLD. Let's try not to get caught up in the semantics and just play the damn game.

[PureLo]

I see my comment got deleted... i guess it is true

those who donate > those that don't

You can have it back.

another TR kid claiming "no favoritism" and trying to lawyer it up so that other people can't pick on their cheating habits again or coerce the GM's into stronger actions to block their rampant exploits/terribad behavior to other players. Guess he can't hang in RnF anymore so he is trying to eliminate the bashing by bringing it to the server chat section. Kind of slick, but not a deterrent.... sorry.

And a suspension, for not following the forum rules.

It has absolutely nothing to do with favoritism because I don't care, whatsoever about your guilds. That might make you mad, or upset, but that's the truth. They are abbreviations to me.

[Deuces]

I think one thing that should be done is hide the last post on R n F so things dont stand out when someone is surfing the forums. So if you want to actually read trash you have to go in and search for it. This way when someone new comes to the forums they dont see something offensive or rude.

[toddfx]

i forsee a 100page thread

Looks like this is well on it's way to surpassing Bob's recent thread, which got 150 replies in just over 24 hours. Albeit the first five pages of his were just an argument about Trak & 6 rogues.

[Roanoke]

I see my comment got deleted... i guess it is true

those who donate > those that don't

I highly doubt that this is why your last post was deleted.

Either you were ranting, flaming or trolling. Try posting something that actually contributes to a healthy discussion next time.

P.S. I have never donated. My posts are fine. Hmm... ;)

[Kruel]

I completely agree with what you are saying. People post WHATEVER and were ever they want. We lost two DEVs to these trolls complaining and yelling everytime i call is made by a GM.

[SearyxTZ]

Rogean has dealt with things properly and professionally. And no, deleting threads or banhammering drama queens will NOT help in this instance where it's a hot topic among 99% of the server (will make it worse and spawn a whole new set of problems).

It's annoying that such a huge positive (a legitimate method of hack prevention) is being turned into a negative because people like to complain or create drama.

[purist]

wait, how did quitting uthgaard quitting* have anything to do with trolls again

[Demetrium]

I completely agree with what you are saying. People post WHATEVER and were ever they want. We lost two DEVs to these trolls complaining and yelling everytime i call is made by a GM.

Did we really? I thought Uthgaard left over disagreements with the other management and Xzerion left after Uthgaard claimed he was corrupt?

[Hasbinbad]

And no, deleting threads or banhammering drama queens will NOT help in this instance where it's a hot topic among 99% of the server (will make it worse and spawn a whole new set of problems).
Will it? I disagree. I think that there is a certain amount of people who will be banned or give up in disgust and quit because they can't say defamatory things against the staff, those people who have legitimate grievances can pursue them legitimately, and then the rest of us can move on.

[Hasbinbad]

Did we really? I thought Uthgaard left over disagreements with the other management and Xzerion left after Uthgaard claimed he was corrupt?
This isn't really the thread to dispute past actions. Please keep on the topic: a group of people acting in a manner which is detrimental to the server. There are plenty of other threads in which to discuss other things, and you also have the option of starting a new thread. Thank you.

[Slave]

The fact of the matter is that when a player like Skope starts giving you some constructive criticism on the server he's played on for years, you should probably listen. He represents a huge group of players, the kind of players that any sane GM would want on his server: the ones who don't cheat.

What it comes down to is that if you allow those people to return with their ill-gotten items, it's going to pretty much ruin P99 for the rest of us. You know, the ones you want to play with. The ones who don't cheat.

So if anyone reads this, please disregard Hasbinbad's generic murmurs of safety and normalcy; the sky IS falling with regards to our tiny corner of the internet. This is the single largest significant event and GM decision ever to hit P99. There is still a choice to be made, and it is between two kinds of people. Those who cheated... and the ones who don't cheat.

When a server population stands to lose a huge percentage of its cheaters, or a smaller percentage of we other gamers, the ones who aren't normally as vocal, or influential as individuals, because we usually only play the game itself instead of the metaforum... then I'm sorry, but FUCK the cheaters. I vote to keep the ones who don't cheat.

Delete the cheaters' items or there will be irrevocable damage done to the rest of the server. P99 will never be the same... when the good people like Skope start telling you they will quit because of the decision you are about to make final, then really please just forget the game. Forget training and rule lawyering and the nihilistic top 2 guilds and just make the RIGHT, moral decision. Keep the ones who don't cheat.

[Demetrium]

This isn't really the thread to dispute past actions. Please keep on the topic: a group of people acting in a manner which is detrimental to the server. There are plenty of other threads in which to discuss other things, and you also have the option of starting a new thread. Thank you.

I'm not about to let people post incorrect facts in what seems to be a very popular thread. You're a fan of censorship, aren't you?

[Kruel]

My bad wasnt staying on topic. But i do agree that people shouldnt be questioning GM decisions in open forums, but rather petition forums like posted.

[Messianic]

Moderating by deleting posts and suspending repeat offenders would help. People need to realize that all that needs to be said has been said. If they have something to report that involves a gm decision, there are ways of submitting that to the right people.

There are people on these forums who see a server wipe or this server failing as a positive for them, so they stir the pot. People should be reporting stuff of this nature as well to bring it to moderator attention.

[Messianic]

I'm not about to let people post incorrect facts in what seems to be a very popular thread. You're a fan of censorship, aren't you?

Censorship is quite appropriate in a small, closed system. It's not appropriate in society (to a point). Big difference.

[Roanoke]

wait, how did quitting uthgaard quitting* have anything to do with trolls again

Example:

Lets say your the regional manager of a fast food chain. You work hard. Your employees work hard. The food is very good, in fact, it's so good many people don't consider it to be fast food. You enjoy what you do, even though the pay isn't so great- it's rewarding enough on its own to see smiling faces of happy customers.

One day, you're opening the restaurant only to find out that your so-called "loyal customers" are stealing from the store counters. To prevent this measure you remove the napkin and ketchup dispensers for two weeks to prevent further theft. You say "we will allow you to use these again in two weeks, but until then the customers who were caught stealing are not welcome in our establishment." All hell breaks lose, suddenly people are questioning every decision you have ever made as upper management. You no longer feel as though the hard work you've put into making this a great place is being respected. You wish it wasn't this way, but clearly part of the community that keeps you "in business" has ulterior motives to gain a ketchup and napkin advantage over the rest of your customers. You feel as if somehow the community is blaming YOU instead of the people who outright stole from what was potentially usable napkins and ketchup by everyone.

It'd make me quit too. Odd/Bad example but I think it gets the point across. Why do something when all you get is flak from the community? Instead of the well deserved respect you earned. Doesn't matter if you like the manager on a personal level, the food is fucking delicious and you'll keep going back.

[Demetrium]

Example:

Lets say your the regional manager of a fast food chain. You work hard. Your employees work hard. The food is very good, in fact, it's so good many people don't consider it to be fast food. You enjoy what you do, even though the pay isn't so great- it's rewarding enough on its own to see smiling faces of happy customers.

One day, you're opening the restaurant only to find out that your so-called "loyal customers" are stealing from the store counters. To prevent this measure you remove the napkin and ketchup dispensers for two weeks to prevent further theft. You say "we will allow you to use these again in two weeks, but until then the customers who were caught stealing are not welcome in our establishment." All hell breaks lose, suddenly people are questioning every decision you have ever made as upper management. You no longer feel as though the hard work you've put into making this a great place is being respected. You wish it wasn't this way, but clearly part of the community that keeps you "in business" has ulterior motives to gain a ketchup and napkin advantage over the rest of your customers. You feel as if somehow the community is blaming YOU instead of the people who outright stole from what was potentially usable napkins and ketchup by everyone.

It'd make me quit too. Odd/Bad example but I think it gets the point across. Why do something when all you get is flak from the community? Instead of the well deserved respect you earned. Doesn't matter if you like the manager on a personal level, the food is fucking delicious and you'll keep going back.

Apparently nobody who reads these forums understands why Uthgaard left?

[Autotune]

Thread cleaned.

Those of you you were suspended, reasons displayed. Those whose comments were deleted, do not do it again.

1. Warning
2. Suspension
3. Ban

Depending on what you say, it is possible to skip directly past 1 and be suspended or banned. Moderator discretion.

Glad to see this happen and the thread not get moved to RnF.

+1

[Hasbinbad]

Delete the cheaters' items or there will be irrevocable damage done to the rest of the server. P99 will never be the same... when the good people like Skope start telling you they will quit because of the decision you are about to make final, then really please just forget the game. Forget training and rule lawyering and the nihilistic top 2 guilds and just make the RIGHT, moral decision. Keep the ones who don't cheat.
This is exactly the kind of doom and gloom speech that does nobody any good, thank you Slave for providing an example.

First of all, saying that unless your demands are met, some harm will come to the people being demanded of is tantamount to terrorism, which is exactly what you just did when you said "Delete the cheaters' items or there will be irrevocable damage done to the rest of the server. P99 will never be the same..." This is terrorism plain and simple, and this is the tactic employed by a large majority of the group of posters who are being detrimental to the health of the server at the current time.

Secondly, Skope, while a valuable member of the community, leaving because he doesn't like the rules of the server is not a reason to change the rules of the forum.

Thirdly, Skope has a perfectly legitimate method available to him which has been provided and outlined by the staff. Skope should use this avenue and abide by the decisions or make his decision whether or not he wants to be here.

The above goes for everyone. The mob rule mentality is not getting the server anywhere but downhill, so let's put a stop to it.

[Vohl]

nilbog and others: Thanks for stepping up the policing on the Server Chat forum. I hope that things get better soon and some posters learn to keep RnF mentality in the RnF forum. Server concerns can certainly be discussed civilly.

[Hasbinbad]

Apparently nobody who reads these forums understands why Uthgaard left?
Most of us do, the others can be directed to a thread in which it is appropriate to discuss that matter, maybe in one which you would like to start. This is not the appropriate thread to discuss Uthgaard specifically. This thread is about calling attention to the fact that a group of people are posting threads that are highly critical of the staff of p99, which may also be detrimental to the server in the long run.

[Demetrium]

This is exactly the kind of doom and gloom speech that does nobody any good, thank you Slave for providing an example.

First of all, saying that unless your demands are met, some harm will come to the people being demanded of is tantamount to terrorism, which is exactly what you just did when you said "Delete the cheaters' items or there will be irrevocable damage done to the rest of the server. P99 will never be the same..." This is terrorism plain and simple, and this is the tactic employed by a large majority of the group of posters who are being detrimental to the health of the server at the current time.


"Stop questioning the GMs because it's harming the server". Sounds eerily similar to a thread I'm reading...

[purist]

Example:

Lets say your the regional manager of a fast food chain. You work hard. Your employees work hard. The food is very good, in fact, it's so good many people don't consider it to be fast food. You enjoy what you do, even though the pay isn't so great- it's rewarding enough on its own to see smiling faces of happy customers.

One day, you're opening the restaurant only to find out that your so-called "loyal customers" are stealing from the store counters. To prevent this measure you remove the napkin and ketchup dispensers for two weeks to prevent further theft. You say "we will allow you to use these again in two weeks, but until then the customers who were caught stealing are not welcome in our establishment." All hell breaks lose, suddenly people are questioning every decision you have ever made as upper management. You no longer feel as though the hard work you've put into making this a great place is being respected. You wish it wasn't this way, but clearly part of the community that keeps you "in business" has ulterior motives to gain a ketchup and napkin advantage over the rest of your customers. You feel as if somehow the community is blaming YOU instead of the people who outright stole from what was potentially usable napkins and ketchup by everyone.

It'd make me quit too. Odd/Bad example but I think it gets the point across. Why do something when all you get is flak from the community? Instead of the well deserved respect you earned. Doesn't matter if you like the manager on a personal level, the food is fucking delicious and you'll keep going back.

stopped reading at "lets say you're a manager of a fast food chain"

[Deuces]

I think the Gm's should input on this thread some more and not have all the hasbinbad comments.

[Skope]

It's annoying that such a huge positive (a legitimate method of hack prevention) is being turned into a negative because people like to complain or create drama.

It's not complaining and it's not drama. Many of us feel like they dropped the ball when they could have done far more, and we, the non-hacking playerbase, have been handed the short end of the stick considering how lenient the punishments were in comparison to those that have been dished out before and even what the rules themselves state. Throw in some of the other recent decisions, or lack thereof, and you've got a boiling pot that's spilling over. The feud between the devs certainly didn't help, but it's also something that's not new to P99 (it's happened before and this one has gone on for the better part of a year)

This last decision, the one regarding the cheaters, was so bad that I called it quits.

As I said, the staff will make mistakes just as the community will -- we're all human. Sometimes the mistakes are the players' not abiding by the rules (an extreme would be using a third-party program) and sometimes the staff's mistake is not enforcing the rules (the extreme of playing favorites or not banning third-party program-using players).

It's their decision and it's their server. Fine. That's something we all knew going in. But when creating p99 the staff felt there were some cardinal sins that simply were unforgivable -- the rules. But when joining p99, I too felt there were some things that the were unforgivable -- hence rules. Both the staff and the players were expected to abide by them. My interpretation and their interpretation meshed and I joined this server. Had I known how things would go down since then I wouldn't have joined over a year ago. I myself have wavered and I've perhaps broken a dumb rule here and there (I admit I've RnF'd a bit in GC =P and I've trained my guild once or twice. It's hard pulling fear as a wizard), but I never committed a cardinal sin, because had I done it I'd expect to be shown the door. The staff too has made some silly decisions over that time, but I feel they didn't live up to their end of the bargain.

Nothing emotional, no sissy shit. I walked away from the game and am offering to walk away from the forums if they feel they're not changing their minds on that single, and admittedly rather important, decision.

As for HBB: it sort of transcends the forum rules at this point, dude. Do you think me telling nilb0g that i quit in a private message because they made this decision would even warrant a response at all? At least he's reading it, and you know what? I'm glad everyone else is as well.

[Nineran]

Here Here to the OP, well said.

[Hasbinbad]

It's not complaining and it's not drama. Many of us feel like they dropped the ball when they could have done far more, and we, the non-hacking playerbase, have been handed the short end of the stick considering how lenient the punishments were in comparison to those that have been dished out before and even what the rules themselves state. Throw in some of the other recent decisions, or lack thereof, and you've got a boiling pot that's spilling over. The feud between the devs certainly didn't help, but it's also something that's not new to P99 (it's happened before and this one has gone on for the better part of a year)

This last decision, the one regarding the cheaters, was so bad that I called it quits.

As I said, the staff will make mistakes just as the community will -- we're all human. Sometimes the mistakes are the players' not abiding by the rules (an extreme would be using a third-party program) and sometimes the staff's mistake is not enforcing the rules (the extreme of playing favorites or not banning third-party program-using players).

It's their decision and it's their server. Fine. That's something we all knew going in. But when creating p99 the staff felt there were some cardinal sins that simply were unforgivable -- the rules. But when joining p99, I too felt there were some things that the were unforgivable -- hence rules. Both the staff and the players were expected to abide by them. My interpretation and their interpretation meshed and I joined this server. Had I known how things would go down since then I wouldn't have joined over a year ago. I myself have wavered and I've perhaps broken a dumb rule here and there (I admit I've RnF'd a bit in GC =P and I've trained my guild once or twice. It's hard pulling fear as a wizard), but I never committed a cardinal sin, because had I done it I'd expect to be shown the door. The staff too has made some silly decisions over that time, but I feel they didn't live up to their end of the bargain.

Nothing emotional, no sissy shit. I walked away from the game and am offering to walk away from the forums if they feel they're not changing their minds on that single, and admittedly rather important, decision.

As for HBB: it sort of transcends the forum rules at this point, dude. Do you think me telling nilb0g that i quit in a private message because they made this decision would even warrant a response at all? At least he's reading it, and you know what? I'm glad everyone else is as well.
These issues have a method to getting dealt with, and you along with others in your group are using alternative means which are not worth the ends to settle them. Stop going around saying negative things about the server which may or may not be true (I'm not arguing the veracity of your claims) in a way which is detrimental to p99. Do it using the outlined method or go away. You're driving away new and old players, many of which are innocent of the cheating which you despise so much.

I didn't cheat, why try to ruin my fun?

The above statement can be made by the entire server's population minus 365 minus your group of rabble-rousers.

[Ennoia]

Misdirection: It's what's for dinner.

The fact of the matter is the rules are CLEARLY stated that MQ2 use will result in an immediate and irrevocable ban, yet it was only a suspension.

Ban Xzerion. Ban Perun. LONG LIVE UTHGAARD!!!

[Skope]

These issues have a method to getting dealt with, and you along with others in your group are using alternative means which are not worth the ends to settle them. Stop going around saying negative things about the server which may or may not be true (I'm not arguing the veracity of your claims) in a way which is detrimental to p99. Do it using the outlined method or go away. You're driving away new and old players, many of which are innocent of the cheating which you despise so much.

I didn't cheat, why try to ruin my fun?

The above statement can be made by the entire server's population minus 365 minus your group of rabble-rousers.

I'm not trying to ruin your fun, I'm hoping that there's a glimmer of hope left in mine. I'm trying to extend the length of time you'll have fun here. You make it sound as my motives are selfish. Really? And rabble-rousing would have been me going all RnF up in this bitch; quite clearly i'm not.

Furthermore, sending the GMs a PM and telling them that I quit because 'you guys dun' fucked up', or even being eloquent and reasonable about it doesn't make any sense and I can almost guarantee you there'd no be action. I actually believe Nilb0g when he says he doesn't care if there's 2 or 2,000 players online. From what I've gathered I'm not too sure I can say that about any of the other members of the staff

[mitic]

you just dont ban a good portion of your active "customers", at least not at the first time they got caught

we are talking here about threehundretsixtyfive accounts ffs

[Hasbinbad]

I'm not trying to ruin your fun, I'm hoping that there's a glimmer of hope left in mine. I'm trying to extend the length of time you'll have fun here. You make it sound as my motives are selfish. Really? And rabble-rousing would have been me going all RnF up in this bitch; quite clearly i'm not.
My fun does not rest on whether or not XYZ players get banned or not. It does not rest on a server reset. It does not rest on whether or not it is made public that ABC players disagree with staff for whatever reasons.

The GM's have made their decision. You stating that it is not final yet does not make it not final. Your options are to deal with their decision, escalate your grievance with the decision in the approved manner, or leave. It's really that simple.
Furthermore, sending the GMs a PM and telling them that I quit because 'you guys dun' fucked up', or even being eloquent and reasonable about it doesn't make any sense and I can almost guarantee you there'd no be action. I actually believe Nilb0g when he says he doesn't care if there's 2 or 2,000 players online. From what I've gathered I'm not too sure I can say that about any of the other members of the staff
If you use the approved method to bring your grievance regarding the decision and are not satisfied with the outcome, I would say maybe starting a signature-stye petition involving some number of players. If that does not bring you the outcome you want, figure some other way within the rules to raise your complaints. If that doesn't work, you should either learn to live with it or leave.

[citizen1080]

I am not usually one to join the "rabble rabble rabble" crowd..and I may have taken this out of context. But...

This isn't really the thread to dispute past actions. Please keep on the topic: a group of people acting in a manner which is detrimental to the server. There are plenty of other threads in which to discuss other things, and you also have the option of starting a new thread. Thank you.


Your OP states that you feel the player base should not talk about the recent issues with "hackers, shady staff practices etc" or question GM decisions due to the potential of scaring away new players. Which is a valid concern.

However, according to you the topic of the thread is a group of people acting in a manner which is detrimental to the server.

In my opinion 365 accounts caught hacking is far more detrimental to the server than people talking about it. And that is all they are doing, is talking. As far as I can tell the user base has not sent an ultimatum to Nilbog stating that he has to ban every cheater on the server or they will boycott it.

For one he would not care as he has said many previous times and two, it is not our place to demand anything. It is his sandbox, who are we to demand he removes the cat shit in it.

However I still feel we should be able to talk about it. If a new player actual takes the time to read some of the posts he will see 99% of the drama and issues on the server are located in a very small portion of the player base and zones..namely raid areas. Yes people used the hack suite in normal zones and that is detrimental to all our playing. But, not enough to avoid the server entirely. This is by far the best thing out there for Classic EQ cheaters or no. And while the response to the cheaters was too little in many of our opinions that does not change the fact that there was a response and it was in the right direction.

Censoring free speech here will just lead to a private forum somewhere else where people can speak their minds without fear of big brother censoring their threads. And that in its self will harm this server than any thread posted here.

[Skope]

My fun does not rest on whether or not XYZ players get banned or not. It does not rest on a server reset. It does not rest on whether or not it is made public that ABC players disagree with staff for whatever reasons.

The GM's have made their decision. You stating that it is not final yet does not make it not final. Your options are to deal with their decision, escalate your grievance with the decision in the approved manner, or leave. It's really that simple.

If you use the approved method to bring your grievance regarding the decision and are not satisfied with the outcome, I would say maybe starting a signature-stye petition. If that does not bring you the outcome you want, figure some other way within the rules to raise your complaints. If that doesn't work, you should either learn to live with it or leave.

I've stated the question in GC threads before and they haven't responded and I'll do it again + i'll even PM him about it in case they didn't read it. That cool? So let's debunk your crap once more.

Are you guys currently considering withdrawing the current punishment in favor of something more harsh with respect to the 365 accounts that were caught cheating? A simple yes or no is enough for me.

My fun doesn't depend on people getting banned, but I expect certain rules to be followed -- from both parties. Not abiding by those rules doesn't mean i won't have fun, in fact it means that I'll willingly leave.

[Hasbinbad]

The fact of the matter is the rules are CLEARLY stated that MQ2 use will result in an immediate and irrevocable ban, yet it was only a suspension.
You have a valid point Ennoia, and I'm not trying to argue that. I'm saying that the method which a certain group of people have decided on employing is probably doing more harm than good. What good can come of you typing "ban this or that" with every post you make? Will it bring Uthgaard back? Probably not. It's also against the rules.

[Tamiah2011]

I've noticed that there are quite a few threads going around in several forums which openly question the GM decision regarding the recent suite of 3rd party program users. This, I believe, affects the server's health as a whole, hence my posting in Server Chat. My main concern is that these kinds of posts will affect the way a new player sees this community negatively, turning them away from Project 1999 because of supposed cheating or corruption when such cheating has been summarily dealt with and the corruption has been deemed not to exist. Even if these things were in question, they would be indicative of the morals and actions of a few individuals rather than the server as a whole.

Why aren't these issues being dealt with in the proper manner, outlined by the people who run this server?

Why aren't the individuals responsible for various slanders and the obvious intent of mayhem against the population of Project 1999 being dealt with?

In the Rants, Flames, and NSFW forum there is a thread titled "GM Decisions." (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3278) In that thread, I believe the official policy is:

and

and

I'm just a little curious as to why posts containing questions regarding GM Decisions on this particular issue are allowed to continue unmolested. I'm especially curious in this matter as I have been unable to question GM Decisions publically in the past, and I'm sure many others have been so unable as well.

Rogean goes on to state:

If this is the correct way to request oversight regarding a GM Decision, why aren't people being directed to do so rather than continue to spam the various forums about it?

Is the freedom of people to speak their mind - in a manner which has been prohibited, and when the proper manner has been outlined - worth the negative impact this campaign is probably having on this community?

No. People have said their piece and more. They have rattled their cages and then some. Nobody benefits from allowing this to continue, no matter what your stance is. I suggest that further posts calling into question the decisions of the GM Staff be deleted or archived separately, and that these posters be given instructions to raise grievances in the proper manner. I further suggest that repercussions for further violations of the rules be detailed and enforced. Everyone sees why this situation is different, but the rules of the forums shouldn't be set aside because a group of people want to raise questions and cause havoc about how the rules of the game are being enforced.



Let me get this right, you want GM enforce how player talk on forums but not enforce the rules on game server? Most the player pissed because Rogean has NOT enforced the rules he made on server...Grow a brain

[Ennoia]

you just dont ban a good portion of your active "customers", at least not at the first time they got caught

we are talking here about threehundretsixtyfive accounts ffs

365 accounts != 365 active players. They absolutely should be banned the first time being caught.

- Any type of program or script that gives you an unfair advantage (eg. MacroQuest, ShowEQ or packet modification) will result in an instant ban with no lenience. Cheating will be ruled with an iron first regardless of who you are.

From this thread (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1057).

NO LENIENCE...so why was it given? That rules post is 2 years old, so people had to know it was illegal.

[Tamiah2011]

I am not usually one to join the "rabble rabble rabble" crowd..and I may have taken this out of context. But...




Your OP states that you feel the player base should not talk about the recent issues with "hackers, shady staff practices etc" or question GM decisions due to the potential of scaring away new players. Which is a valid concern.

However, according to you the topic of the thread is a group of people acting in a manner which is detrimental to the server.

In my opinion 365 accounts caught hacking is far more detrimental to the server than people talking about it. And that is all they are doing, is talking. As far as I can tell the user base has not sent an ultimatum to Nilbog stating that he has to ban every cheater on the server or they will boycott it.

For one he would not care as he has said many previous times and two, it is not our place to demand anything. It is his sandbox, who are we to demand he removes the cat shit in it.

However I still feel we should be able to talk about it. If a new player actual takes the time to read some of the posts he will see 99% of the drama and issues on the server are located in a very small portion of the player base and zones..namely raid areas. Yes people used the hack suite in normal zones and that is detrimental to all our playing. But, not enough to avoid the server entirely. This is by far the best thing out there for Classic EQ cheaters or no. And while the response to the cheaters was too little in many of our opinions that does not change the fact that there was a response and it was in the right direction.

Censoring free speech here will just lead to a private forum somewhere else where people can speak their minds without fear of big brother censoring their threads. And that in its self will harm this server than any thread posted here.

I agree 100 percent we should all BOYCOTT server untill all theses cheaters or perma banned.

[citizen1080]

I agree 100 percent we should all BOYCOTT server untill all theses cheaters or perma banned.

The fact that that is all you got out of my post is somewhat disappointing.

[Salty]

I too agree with bob.

We should boycott until these cheaters are perma banned.

Wipe it clean.

[Skope]

I agree 100 percent we should all BOYCOTT server untill all theses cheaters or perma banned.

see the difference between Tamiah's posts and mine, HBB? Something like that is the epitome of not making a single point and being detrimental to the health of the server.

People raising legitimate points, especially in a critical time like this, shouldn't be silenced and should have the community there to read their arguments and judge for themselves instead of a direct line to the staff that may or may not work

[Hasbinbad]

Your OP states that you feel the player base should not talk about the recent issues with "hackers, shady staff practices etc" or question GM decisions due to the potential of scaring away new players. Which is a valid concern.

However, according to you the topic of the thread is a group of people acting in a manner which is detrimental to the server.
That is two ways of saying the same thing. Obviously, "detrimental to the server" references driving away new and old players.
In my opinion 365 accounts caught hacking is far more detrimental to the server than people talking about it.
I agree with you up to this point.
And that is all they are doing, is talking.
This is where our understandings break. They were talking about it, up to several days ago. Now they are rousing rabble in an attempt to undermine Project 1999. There are various subgroups with various motivations for doing so, and anyone who has been here for a while would need to be blind not to see that. I am all for civil discourse, but what is going on on these forums is not that anymore. What is going on now helps nobody and hurts everyone who wants to continue playing on p99.
As far as I can tell the user base has not sent an ultimatum to Nilbog stating that he has to ban every cheater on the server or they will boycott it.
Nor would Nilbog be likely to acqueisce to such an ultimatum.
However I still feel we should be able to talk about it. If a new player actual takes the time to read some of the posts he will see 99% of the drama and issues on the server are located in a very small portion of the player base and zones..namely raid areas.
It isn't fair to ask new players to dig through a huge pile of shit to find a ball to play with. That is ridiculous. I'm not asking for the gestapo here, I'm asking that some judicious moderation be employed to stop the worst of the useless posts which are detrimental to the server.
Censoring free speech here will just lead to a private forum somewhere else where people can speak their minds without fear of big brother censoring their threads. And that in its self will harm this server than any thread posted here.
A private forum somewhere else would be fine by me at the very least. Also, comparing what I am proposing (judicious moderation on a private forum) to Orwellian domination of the population (IRL) is silly. You should be ashamed of yourself for being both educated enough to be able to make such a reference and at the same time childish enough to use it in a silly situation like this.

[Hasbinbad]

I agree 100 percent we should all BOYCOTT server untill all theses cheaters or perma banned.

The fact that that is all you got out of my post is somewhat disappointing.

I too agree with bob.

We should boycott until these cheaters are perma banned.

Wipe it clean.
Bob, I rest my case with you.

[Hasbinbad]

Let me get this right, you want GM enforce how player talk on forums but not enforce the rules on game server?
I never said that. In fact I have given several indications that this is precisely not how I feel. However, I have said that the rules of the forums should not be set aside simply because a group of people feel that the rules of the game haven't been enforced to their liking.

[Skope]

However, I have said that the rules of the forums should not be set aside simply because a group of people feel that the rules of the game haven't been enforced.

Fixt.

[Hasbinbad]

Fixt.
Arguing semantics does nothing to help the server, Skope.

[Gwence]

You guys should boycott food irl, that'll show em!

[Kope]

these's morons running this server

WTH? The last people you should be calling morons are the people running the server. This is just pure slander at this point Tam...

[Ennoia]

You have a valid point Ennoia, and I'm not trying to argue that. I'm saying that the method which a certain group of people have decided on employing is probably doing more harm than good. What good can come of you typing "ban this or that" with every post you make? Will it bring Uthgaard back? Probably not. It's also against the rules.

With the recent re-evaluation of the severity of discipline, my suspension would be up after I was done brushing my teeth. See what I did there? THAT is why they can't be lenient, even if hundreds of accounts are involved.

[Skope]

Arguing semantics does nothing to help the server, Skope.

it's not semantics. the rules weren't not enforced to my "liking", but weren't enforced at all. an incredibly important rule was taken back, rewritten for a special case and then presented to the community as a solution. to even assume that i'm arguing over semantics is just your Loke showing. We had a good thing going.

[Hasbinbad]

You guys should boycott food irl, that'll show em!
Gwence, this isn't RnF, and I would appreciate it if you kept your posts in this thread on the topic of the group of people who are making posts which are detrimental to the health and population of the server.

[Demetrium]

I never said that. In fact I have given several indications that this is precisely not how I feel. However, I have said that the rules of the forums should not be set aside simply because a group of people feel that the rules of the game haven't been enforced to their liking.

I can't possibly comprehend a scenario where this thread is anything short of a complete failure in every regard.

[Hasbinbad]

With the recent re-evaluation of the severity of discipline, my suspension would be up after I was done brushing my teeth. See what I did there? THAT is why they can't be lenient, even if hundreds of accounts are involved.

it's not semantics. the rules weren't not enforced to my "liking", but weren't enforced at all. an incredibly important rule was taken back, rewritten for a special case and then presented to the community as a solution. to even assume that i'm arguing over semantics is just your Loke showing. We had a good thing going.
You guys are arguing the same point: that the rules were not enforced to your liking. They were enforced, punishments were handed down. You didn't like them. The proper format for voicing your grievances with GM Decisions has been outlined for you. Repetition of negative references in forums is not the proper method.

[Ennoia]

You guys are arguing the same point: that the rules were not enforced to your liking. They were enforced, punishments were handed down. You didn't like them. The proper format for voicing your grievances with GM Decisions has been outlined for you. Repetition of negative references in forums is not the proper method.

No, the rules were no enforced, period. There has been a long standing position on what happens with MQ2 use on P99, and it wasn't enforced. NO LENIENCE means NO LENIENCE.

[citizen1080]

Bob, I rest my case with you.

Just because two well known trolls very obviously took one part of my discussion and turned it around backwards does nothing to help your case. =)

As for me being silly in my reference I will just say it is a slippery slope.

[Tamiah2011]

WTH? The last people you should be calling morons are the people running the server. This is just pure slander at this point Tam...

hmmmmm? who else should be blamed for this mess? While Uthgaard was running around perma banning players for stupid stuff like 2 boxing and training they had people exploiting and hacking the server.The players with the minor offenses are still perma banned and the one hacking are returning to game, so who should be blamed ? Let me guess me for speaking up not the one running the server.

[Skope]

You guys are arguing the same point: that the rules were not enforced to your liking. They were enforced, punishments were handed down. You didn't like them. The proper format for voicing your grievances with GM Decisions has been outlined for you. Repetition of negative references in forums is not the proper method.

Refer to server rules thread.

Is that thread about the rules that are to my liking or the actual rules of the server? Is that not what I'm arguing about? I'm not asking for special treatment. I'm not asking the witches to be burnt at the stake. What I'm asking for is that those same rules they've written up are the same for everyone that plays here. I'm asking for the rulings that they've made in the past be upheld and continued. And finally where there's an issue of clarity, I'd like some clarity =P

Actually, let's take a step back, HBB. Remember when Rogean backtracked on that promise he made over vent to the 3-4 guilds during the poopsock era when he said he'd agree to enforce anything those guys presented to him? Do you remember what happened when Bumamgar said "I don't wanna play by these roolz becuause I think there stoopid? (he wasn't very bright) Did i throw a sissyfit then? did you? We've both certainly made remarks about that incident, but it wasn't a dealbreaker. Whatever. It was a mistake that got fleshed out a couple of months when FTE happened. It wasn't a dealbreaker, and though at the time a very big deal to a lot of raiders (everyone except those in WI), it was a mistake that Rogean made that he hopefully learned from and the community moved on. Letting off 365 accounts with such a lenient punishment is inexcusable, and to go further, it sets the server in a direction that it shouldn't be going.

[nalkin]

The only thing detrimental to the server is how the staff messed up on the punishments they gave to the cheaters. They messed up so bad that people were extremely vocal... that is what happens when people become outraged. If they fix their mistake then people won't be going crazy about it like they are. If I was new to the server I would like to know the opinion of the populous, and how things are going down.

For instance, you can get a harsher punishment for saying something unfavorable in this thread than you can for using MQ2 for the past 2 years:

Thread cleaned.

Those of you you were suspended, reasons displayed. Those whose comments were deleted, do not do it again.

1. Warning
2. Suspension
3. Ban

Depending on what you say, it is possible to skip directly past 1 and be suspended or banned. Moderator discretion.

[Slave]

It's one thing for people to break rules in the game, but when you start using your words in the forums, it's time for some crackdown, bitches!!

[Vermicelli]

As badly as people who used Macroquest and ShowEQ "ruined" the server, junkheads who can't seem to stop stirring up drama (in the server general forum and over /ooc, no less) have been ruining it for me far harder for far longer. Suspend and plat-strip those drama llama accounts imo

Thanks to all the trolls who have posted in this thread, framing the useful discourse with all of your witch-hunt, endlessly repeated bullshit.

[Hasbinbad]

Well I have to go for now. I hope you guys can continue this civilly. When I get back I will address any real issues. Please try not to troll this thread, and thank you to both the people who have supported me and this thread in public and in private, and to the staff who have done a great job moderating it so far.

[Felwithemagi]

I see the OP's point, it is a valid one.

I guess my question is, why was a dual standard applied in terms of enforcing the rules? I never heard the answer to that, and it sets a slippery precedent for future issues.

I've tried to pick up the nuances of it from RnF but the signal/noise ratio isn't so good over there. If you could point me to a thread that answers that, please do. If you consider this post 'questioning your authority' then my bad, please delete or move it, just let me know. Thanks.

[Stinkum]

As badly as people who used Macroquest and ShowEQ "ruined" the server, junkheads who can't seem to stop stirring up drama (in the server general forum and over /ooc, no less) have been ruining it for me far harder for far longer. Suspend and plat-strip those drama llama accounts imo

Thanks to all the trolls who have posted in this thread, framing the useful discourse with all of your witch-hunt, endlessly repeated bullshit.

1. You yourself are advocating a witch-hunt in your post.
2. The above is an exact copy-paste of the same post you've made several times in several threads. Way to "endlessly repeat" your own "bullshit."
3. Learn to use the ignore function on the forum or don't visit R&F if you don't like it. I didn't realize anyone was twisting your elbow, forcing you to click on R&F every single day.

[Demetrium]

1. You yourself are advocating a witch-hunt in your post.
2. The above is an exact copy-paste of the same post you've made several times in several threads. Way to "endlessly repeat" your own "bullshit."
3. Learn to use the ignore function on the forum or don't visit R&F if you don't like it. I didn't realize anyone was twisting your elbow, forcing you to click on R&F every single day.

How do I thumbs up a post?

[Skope]

1. You yourself are advocating a witch-hunt in your post.
2. The above is an exact copy-paste of the same post you've made several times in several threads. Way to "endlessly repeat" your own "bullshit."
2. Learn to use the ignore function on the forum or don't visit R&F if you don't like it. I didn't realize anyone was twisting your elbow, forcing you to click on R&F every single day.
4. Literally nobody except Hasbinbad agrees with your opinion.

he's not disagreeing with me, my points or the validity of my argument. In fact I think he may even agree with me on some key points. instead he's disagreeing with the way that it's being voiced.

Yes, that above post is basically a Tamiah on the opposing side. Little thought behind a bullshit spewing attempt that hopes to prove hasbin right but only gets caught beneath the wheels.

Hasbin, let me propose to you a question that may require a bit of critical thinking on your part. Here goes...

If Nilbog/Rogean/Chica and the other members of the staff agreed with you, do you not think everything I've posted here would have been deleted by now?

You have a point, but only under certain circumstances. Clearly there are legitimate exceptions. the mere fact that my posts aren't being deleted sort of proves that

[Vermicelli]

1. You yourself are advocating a witch-hunt in your post.
2. The above is an exact copy-paste of the same post you've made several times in several threads. Way to "endlessly repeat" your own "bullshit."
3. Learn to use the ignore function on the forum or don't visit R&F if you don't like it. I didn't realize anyone was twisting your elbow, forcing you to click on R&F every single day.

Oh, so you have seen my other appeals asking people stop posting trash in the general forum. Which is the forum we are posting in now, if you hadn't noticed. So many other posters seem to blur the lines between Rants n Flames and general chat that it makes my head spin violently and lighting shoot out of my ears. I don't want to have to sift thru shitpile posts just to read legitimate server threads. There is a time and place for things, and the general forum is not a place for those things.

More to the matter at hand! Reposting these shitpile threads in general chat will not change the GMs' and developers' minds regarding decisions that have already been made. That poop belongs in rants and flames.

inb4 trollolol posts that take what I say out of context and further shit up the forum for your own entertainment.

[G13]

Sounds like you're complaining, tbh. "Not going to play here for reasons x and y." Am I wrong?

I don't understand why you are attacking him. He has valid criticisms. Divinity's reputation as a guild is of the highest caliber. They've always played by the rules and treated this server with respect. How many Divinity officers were caught using SEQ Nilbog? Why are you directing your vitriol towards a Divinity member, and not the guild who's raid leader was caught using SEQ?

A top tier raiding guild's raid leader was caught using SEQ during a competitive raid. He's in a position of leadership within this guild. Where's the raid suspension for 2 weeks at a minimum? Having a developer in this guild should lead to a more severe punishment, to show there is no favortism. A higher standard should be set for this guild to remove all doubt. Instead we're seeing the exact opposite. Why?

Xzerion either knew about the hacking or was too stupid to realize it was happening within his leadership core.

I don't see the nightly population having taken a huge hit since the suspensions went into effect anyways, so I really don't see how that excuse is even plausible. We don't need these cheaters infecting the server. Secondly, why would you want 300+ known cheaters playing on your box? The whole point of having a rule against cheaters is make sure they don't play on the server. Now we're going to have 300+ known cheaters playing on P99 in about a week. To the players that don't cheat, who have played here for almost 2 years, this is a slap in the face.

[Roanoke]

I don't understand why you are attacking him. He has valid criticisms. Divinity's reputation as a guild is of the highest caliber. They've always played by the rules and treated this server with respect. How many Divinity officers were caught using SEQ Nilbog? Why are you directing your vitriol towards a Divinity member, and not the guild who's raid leader was caught using SEQ?

A top tier raiding guild's raid leader was caught using SEQ during a competitive raid. He's in a position of leadership within this guild. Where's the raid suspension for 2 weeks at a minimum? Having a developer in this guild should lead to a more severe punishment, to show there is no favortism. A higher standard should be set for this guild to remove all doubt. Instead we're seeing the exact opposite. Why?

Xzerion either knew about the hacking or was too stupid to realize it was happening within his leadership core.

I don't see the nightly population having taken a huge hit since the suspensions went into effect anyways, so I really don't see how that excuse is even plausible. We don't need these cheaters infecting the server. Secondly, why would you want 300+ known cheaters playing on your box? The whole point of having a rule against cheaters is make sure they don't play on the server. Now we're going to have 300+ known cheaters playing on P99 in about a week. To the players that don't cheat, who have played here for almost 2 years, this is a slap in the face.

You clearly missed the post where nilbog said that guild tags are meaningless abbreviations and that he doesn't care who you are or what guild you are in.

[bakkily]

people are just a bit, id say pissed or annoyed that the cheaters didnt receive more of a severer punishment due to the crimes against the server that was commited,

just glad the heat of this on the forums has died down a bit over the last few days, but they didnt want to lose over 350 people, where a big chunk of those were actively on every night,

though with the cheaters banned for the last week and a half, and half a week to continue, the servers numbers are doing fine, i figure this discussioins going to continue for over the next week or two possibly, though i dont know how this affects newcomers to the server, i hope it doesnt at all, but as hasbind stated at first the gms make the decision making on what happens to the cheaters, could be harsher,

maybe a few more lvls, and rogean said he may bring them back a few lvls, and over the next two weeks hes changing these accounts to the affixed lvl/stripping plat, but they just hope no ones stupid enough to even try to cheat anymore

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

I think we should treat our children well. Our children are out future. If we mistreat children it will reflect negatively on us and society.

[Stinkum]

Oh, so you have seen my other appeals asking people stop posting trash in the general forum. Which is the forum we are posting in now, if you hadn't noticed. So many other posters seem to blur the lines between Rants n Flames and general chat that it makes my head spin violently and lighting shoot out of my ears. I don't want to have to sift thru shitpile posts just to read legitimate server threads. There is a time and place for things, and the general forum is not a place for those things.

More to the matter at hand! Reposting these shitpile threads in general chat will not change the GMs' and developers' minds regarding decisions that have already been made. That poop belongs in rants and flames.

inb4 trollolol posts that take what I say out of context and further shit up the forum for your own entertainment.

Vermicilli,

Please cease your constant witch hunts and torch waving for bans in Server Chat.

You continue to spam Server Chat with your demands to "suspend and plat-strip those drama llama accounts."

You see, there is a time and place for things, and the general forum is not a place for witch hunt calls such as yours in Server Chat. I don't want to have to sift through your "shitpile" posts when I want to read a legitimate server thread.

Reposting your "shitpile" witch hunts and dramatic rabble-rousing for bans in Server Chat will not change the GMs' and developers' minds regarding decisions that have already been made.

Your poop belongs in rants and flames.

Thank you.

[bakkily]

.....battle begin

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

The irony is you are questioning GM decisions by asking why they aren't moderating all the posts. Effectively saying they aren't doing what they should be doing.

this is the correct way to request oversight regarding a GM Decision, why aren't people being directed to do so rather than continue to spam the various forums about it?

There is a distinct difference between questioning a decision and what you are referring to. People should be able to discuss matters which affect the server without worrying about being censored or banned. Now of course there may be ways to do so and ways that aren't appropriate but to simply say anyone who raises a question about things which affect the server need to be moderated is idiocy. Let me get this straight if someone's acting poorly in game and this causes people to speak up on forums, we should ban the people on the forums right? I'm with you there is a point where too much is too much but if the cause of forum posts is in game behavior you don't want that looked at, just the reaction to it? So in essence it becomes do what you want in game and if anyone speaks out against it, they need to be silent. Is that your stance? That only the posts on the forums cause negative feedback or perception for the server. That nothing these posts mention, true false alleged or made up do so? That (hypothetically speaking) any favoritism, any cheating, anything which compromises the integrity of the server or affects people's enjoyment can occur in game just you can't get mad about it?

The bottom line is it is certain people's project or server and they make the rules and like it or not you have no choice but to abide by them. And you have to choose to play here or not. They made their stance clear about questioning GM decisions with Rogeans sticky in the RnF forum I believe. I think the problem is people want to play here and are frustrated when things seem unfair or unjust and I imagine they just want honesty and transparency. Which is why I don't believe your post has anything to do with server health. More like you are either trying to curry favor or just remove voices that speak out against you and your actions.

[G13]

You clearly missed the post where nilbog said that guild tags are meaningless abbreviations and that he doesn't care who you are or what guild you are in.

Then TR/IB should receive a minimum of a 2 week raid suspension effective immediately right?

[Runningfish]

This is exactly the kind of doom and gloom speech that does nobody any good, thank you Slave for providing an example.

First of all, saying that unless your demands are met, some harm will come to the people being demanded of is tantamount to terrorism, which is exactly what you just did when you said "Delete the cheaters' items or there will be irrevocable damage done to the rest of the server. P99 will never be the same..." This is terrorism plain and simple, and this is the tactic employed by a large majority of the group of posters who are being detrimental to the health of the server at the current time.

Secondly, Skope, while a valuable member of the community, leaving because he doesn't like the rules of the server is not a reason to change the rules of the forum.

Thirdly, Skope has a perfectly legitimate method available to him which has been provided and outlined by the staff. Skope should use this avenue and abide by the decisions or make his decision whether or not he wants to be here.

The above goes for everyone. The mob rule mentality is not getting the server anywhere but downhill, so let's put a stop to it.


Agree'd completely. Pretty much agree with everything you've said so far. Personally I think that our forum which is our public face being filled with unmoderated trolling and bashing is more harmful than cheaters keeping their items. New blood keeps us running. Was the server dead and destroyed before the suspensions? Is it now? Then most likely it won't be when they get back. I don't know about you but I sure as hell haven't noticed any difference in the economy with them being gone.

They made the rules, we are expected to play by them. However since they made them they can change them and they can decide how they are enforced. None of us have the full picture. If you think that by reading the forums you're more qualified to make these decisions your probably mistaken.

I don't think it can be argued that more moderation here would be a bad thing. Trolling and name calling is doing nothing to help our situation.

[mwatt]

I see myself as basically a guest in the house that is this server. Therefore I try to conduct myself politely and not give my host any cause for concern or dismay.


That's what we all are here. Guests.

Even a guest may express an opinion, but it should be done politely and in most cases not repeatedly, if the host has already weighed in on that matter.

Trying to make other guests unhappy about what the host provides for free is bad manners. If the wishes of the host are in conflict with those of a guest, the guest should depart or simply keep quiet if the issue is small enough.

End of story. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

[G13]

I see myself as basically a guest in the house that is this server. Therefore I try to conduct myself politely and not give my host any cause for concern or dismay.


That's what we all are here. Guests.

Even a guest may express an opinion, but it should be done politely and in most cases not repeatedly, if the host has already weighed in on that matter.

Trying to make other guests unhappy about what the host provides for free is bad manners. If the wishes of the host are in conflict with those of a guest, the guest should depart or simply keep quiet if the issue is small enough.

End of story. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

So then you're perfectly fine playing on a server where one guild receives special treatment over all others? This is what gives EMU servers a bad name. They are considered corrupt boxes, not supervised in a professional and respectful manner to their player base.

People started playing here because of promises made by development that cheating would not be tolerated under any circumstances. That there would be no second chances if you were caught hacking/using 3rd party programs. You don't level to 60 in a week.

The "tradeoff", in terms of the intrinsic value of our time investment here, was always that the developers were men of their word. That their rules and punishments would be distributed equally and fairly. No exceptions.

People donate to this server and ***** *** to generate revenue. We do this because we care about this server. We care about the community. We've played by the rules for years. Now we're being forced to "share" the server with 365 "guests" who are cheaters.

[Slave]

the guest should depart or simply keep quiet if the issue is small enough.


Unfortunately for both you and the server, the issue is the largest that P99 has ever faced, and likely will ever face.

I've seen this happen time and time again with other games and even other emus. Unless the cheaters are removed, they will continue to cause major economic and political problems for P99. You cannot reason with them, and you cannot appease them... all they want is an advantage over other people, and they don't care how they get it; this is an attitude that is completely inimical to a well-run server.

An item removal or ban on their accounts would go a long, long way toward punishing them, as opposed to basically copping out and changing their stance on cheating to "well, it's like 15% of the player base, so we'd better not ban them or we'll get less donations."

Sorry, but many of the rest of us noticed what the rules were from day 1 because we made knowing and following them a priority. Most of us are quieter than the cheaters, but some of us have a few minutes to spare in our game's forums to speak out against what we feel is a terrible flaw in judgement.

[Anger]

Ahh this is the Thesis.

Well then...Toasting on Epic Bread?

[booter]

For everyone demanding an explanation for why the staff decided to just suspend the cheaters, it was directly addressed in the news post when it happened: http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=46654

Typically this type of violation results in a permanent ban. While we are furious that this many people chose to think we aren't serious about our rules, we also aren't willing to simply throw away that many accounts.

You simply trust Nilbog/Rogean, or you don't. That's the bottom line here. They gave you the reason why, you either accept it and move on or reject it and quit. You don't keep screaming for another explanation because you didn't like the first one.

Furthermore, they can still detect people cheating! They found some 45 more people cheating who will be receiving permanent bans. That means if any of the cheaters go back to cheating, they will know about it and be removed permanently. It was clearly a decision to keep a more healthy population, with obvious pros and cons.

[G13]

For everyone demanding an explanation for why the staff decided to just suspend the cheaters, it was directly addressed in the news post when it happened: http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=46654



You simply trust Nilbog/Rogean, or you don't. That's the bottom line here. They gave you the reason why, you either accept it and move on or reject it and quit. You don't keep screaming for another explanation because you didn't like the first one.

Rogean's logic is flawed

He's assuming there is "value" to these accounts. The truth is these accounts are poison to the overall health and integrity of the server. They are like sub prime loans.

Secondly, the nightly population hasn't taken a huge hit since the suspension was put into place. I see no reason why they shouldn't make the suspension permanent, to show solidarity with the players who play by the rules and whose accounts are vastly more valuable than corrupted accounts used by cheaters.

Lastly, to make a statement that the end game will be an even playing field and cheating will not be tolerated, they need to raid suspend IB/TR (2 weeks minimum) for Perun using a 3rd party hack during a competitive raid. He's their raid leader, therefore the guild in it's entirely should face punishment as did DA previously. The rules are the rules. Either they mean something, or they don't.

[Zereh]

... supposed cheating or corruption when such cheating has been summarily dealt with and the corruption has been deemed not to exist.

Too bad your sketchily worded intro pretty much negates any good intentions that you profess to be presenting here. Nothing was deemed not to exist; one Dev quit insisting that there was no corruption and another quit insisting there was. There has been no official announcement from anyone on the matter.

Yes, you can write a pretty sentence. And yes, you can argue your points with a modicum of intelligence. But that in no way makes what you say the irrefutable truth though you continually try to imply otherwise.

Your ultimate goal is, and always has been, to keep your guild at the top of the heap no matter the cost. If that big collective you that you’re so gallantly trying to represent here really gave a shit about anyone except themselves P99 would not be in the state it is today. Time to start walking your talk. Lady up and remove the known cheaters from your guild if you want to make a clear statement about your concern over the state of the server. That move alone would speak volumes about your sincerity. All the rest is just smoke and mirrors.

[mwatt]

So then you're perfectly fine playing on a server where one guild receives special treatment over all others? This is what gives EMU servers a bad name. They are considered corrupt boxes, not supervised in a professional and respectful manner to their player base.

People started playing here because of promises made by development that cheating would not be tolerated under any circumstances. That there would be no second chances if you were caught hacking/using 3rd party programs. You don't level to 60 in a week.

The "tradeoff", in terms of the intrinsic value of our time investment here, was always that the developers were men of their word. That their rules and punishments would be distributed equally and fairly. No exceptions.

People donate to this server and ***** *** to generate revenue. We do this because we care about this server. We care about the community. We've played by the rules for years. Now we're being forced to "share" the server with 365 "guests" who are cheaters.

I have no evidence that what you postulate is true - i.e. that one guild is receiving special treatment over others. I suppose if I saw a systematic favoritism applied over time, It might give me cause to consider my stay here. But this is a one shot deal. Because of the large number of potential accounts that would dissappear, I can see how Rogean and staff would give consideration to waiving their own rules on a one time basis. If the result of said one time leniency appeared from some perspective as if it favored a certain guild or guilds, I would not get all dramatic about it - this would not be a systematic application of favoritism.

Again, this is Nilborgs's and Rogean's and company's house. I trust them to do what is basically the right thing, with a little bit of autocraticness thrown in. Goddamn, they built it and maintain it. That gives them the right. So far, I very much like the result of their decisions. I don't agree with all of them (e.g. the recent announcement of SoF support going away) but that's just too bad for me.

Again, overall, I like what they do here. Unless they consistently and repeatedly begin to dissappoint me I won't leave. Under no circumstances will I start some sort of crusade to change things or try to rile people up. I will and have stated opinions on things in the past, and I think it is ok to politely discuss them up to a point. Beyond a certain point I will not go - it is bad manners and it might be construed as biting the hand that feeds me.

In regard to sharing the server with cheaters... these guys are doing a lot more than I have seen done anywhere else to identify and punish cheaters. I don't see a one time pseudo-amnesty as evidence of corruption. I see it as an attempt to make a practical decision. Obviously some people disagree with it. Fine. Say so, then either leave or stay, but let it go.

[mwatt]

Unfortunately for both you and the server, the issue is the largest that P99 has ever faced, and likely will ever face.

I've seen this happen time and time again with other games and even other emus. Unless the cheaters are removed, they will continue to cause major economic and political problems for P99. You cannot reason with them, and you cannot appease them... all they want is an advantage over other people, and they don't care how they get it; this is an attitude that is completely inimical to a well-run server.

An item removal or ban on their accounts would go a long, long way toward punishing them, as opposed to basically copping out and changing their stance on cheating to "well, it's like 15% of the player base, so we'd better not ban them or we'll get less donations."

Sorry, but many of the rest of us noticed what the rules were from day 1 because we made knowing and following them a priority. Most of us are quieter than the cheaters, but some of us have a few minutes to spare in our game's forums to speak out against what we feel is a terrible flaw in judgement.

You are over dramatizing this whole thing IMO. They caught cheaters, they punished them. They went lighter than they had said they would but they won't do so again. As for asking them to change what they have done or go back on what they have said... this is unlikely. It is not a good idea for people in charge of something to bow to pressure from the people affected. Sometimes you should, but as a rule, it tends to lessen authority and inivite further such incidents and pretty soon its all a huge mess.

Just my two cents. In the end, I suspect this will end up being little more than a tempest in a teacup.

Oh, and for the record, I do not cheat and did not cheat. I have never even cheated on a test in school. So I do believe in the straight and narrow and it is how I conduct myself. However, I also believe in being practical. The world is not black and white when you start dealing in more than simple scenarios. Finally, based on what they have done, I believe in the people who run this server. Not that I expect perfection - they are human. Not that I expect everything to be totally fair all the time - I have too much life experience to think that way.

[mitic]

just smoke and mirrors.

blaming 1 guild for a serverwide suspension list

just smoke and mirrors.

[JayDee]

Wipe imminent

[G13]

I have no evidence that what you postulate is true - i.e. that one guild is receiving special treatment over others. I suppose if I saw a systematic favoritism applied over time, It might give me cause to consider my stay here. But this is a one shot deal. Because of the large number of potential accounts that would dissappear, I can see how Rogean and staff would give consideration to waiving their own rules on a one time basis. If the result of said one time leniency appeared from some perspective as if it favored a certain guild or guilds, I would not get all dramatic about it - this would not be a systematic application of favoritism.

You're confused. We're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about a raid leader who was caught using a 3rd party hack during a competitive raid. This issue is beyond the 365 accounts being caught hacking. The 365 accounts should be banned permanently, but this is beyond that. Secondly, I don't believe in leniency when it comes to hacking anyways, so your premise concerning "special treatment" is null and void. I believe punishment should be handed out fairly and that hasn't happened yet.

Here are the facts:

1) Guild A had an officer caught using SEQ while tracking. Not during an actual raid mind you. Tracking. The punishment was a 2 week raid suspension for the entire guild.

Guild A later had a member caught using SEQ. Keep in mind he was not even at the potential raid. He was in Lguk farming. Guild A received another 2 week vacation from raiding. I agreed with both rulings. Guild A suffered as a result, and rightly so. They lost members. Weren't able to raid, and their reputation was damaged.

2) Guild B has their raid leader caught using SEQ during an actual competitive raid. Guild B suffers no punishment. Guild B claims they will accept the cheater back into their ranks with open arms. (which is basically a FU to the devs) Will probably also reward him with money and plvling. Keep in mind that not all their members know the right people within their guild to be given this opportunity.

The rules are the rules. This server is supposed to not be a haven for cheaters. Cheaters using 3rd party software are not supposed to be shown leniency. They undermine the credibility of the server.

Again, this is Nilborgs's and Rogean's and company's house. I trust them to do what is basically the right thing, with a little bit of autocraticness thrown in. Goddamn, they built it and maintain it. That gives them the right. So far, I very much like the result of their decisions. I don't agree with all of them (e.g. the recent announcement of SoF support going away) but that's just too bad for me.

I no longer trust them to do the right thing after this appalling ruling that is a slap in the face to every player who has played on this server for years by the rules. I hope they re evaluate their decision and do the right thing. It's long overdue.

Again, overall, I like what they do here. Unless they consistently and repeatedly begin to dissappoint me I won't leave. Under no circumstances will I start some sort of crusade to change things or try to rile people up. I will and have stated opinions on things in the past, and I think it is ok to politely discuss them up to a point. Beyond a certain point I will not go - it is bad manners and it might be construed as biting the hand that feeds me.

Then Project 1999 should not have any rules against cheaters if they aren't going to properly enforce them. They shouldn't have raid suspended past guilds for using SEQ, and then let another guild slide without any punishment. Not even a warning. Nothing. Instead their guild members are creating threads, trying to manipulate the narrative that every other guild whose officers don't cheat will just have to keep quiet and suck it up.

In regard to sharing the server with cheaters... these guys are doing a lot more than I have seen done anywhere else to identify and punish cheaters. I don't see a one time pseudo-amnesty as evidence of corruption. I see it as an attempt to make a practical decision. Obviously some people disagree with it. Fine. Say so, then either leave or stay, but let it go.

By allowing those accounts to continue to be active here, we are now sharing the server with cheaters. You can spin it emotionally and rationalize it any way you want to, but at the end of the day you're sharing the server with cheaters. Ultimately it's up to you to decide if it's environment you want to spend your time in. I've been playing on this server a long time. The 365 banned accounts was bad enough, but for the developers to not permanently ban them and take action against guilds whose officers were caught hacking is appalling to me. I thought the devs had better sense than that and more pride in the community their project brought together.

Instead they are allowing a cancer to fester and grow.

[mimixownzall]

First of all, saying that unless your demands are met, some harm will come to the people being demanded of is tantamount to terrorism, which is exactly what you just did when you said "Delete the cheaters' items or there will be irrevocable damage done to the rest of the server. P99 will never be the same..." This is terrorism plain and simple, and this is the tactic employed by a large majority of the group of posters who are being detrimental to the health of the server at the current time.

What? This, seriously, is.... well this isn't RNF so I'm not sure if I can type what I want.

So what you're saying is that when I tell someone they they should wear their seatbelt or they might die in an otherwise minor accident is me being a terrorist? Lock your doors or someone might break in and steal your stuff and/or kill you is terrorism?

I don't remember reading where Slave threatened to personally do something that would cause harm to the server if their items weren't deleted. Sounds like he is warning of possible repercussions from the community if they dont.

Propaganda? Possibly, since the repercussions can't really be proven until they happen.
Terrorism? No.

[mimixownzall]

What most of us can agree on:

If they had just stuck to their rules and banned all the accounts, we would:

1) Still have Uthgaard.
2) See minimal impact on server population (apparent now)
3) 95% of the drama over the past week would not exist.
4) Still have tags /cryface
5) Not have several high level cheaters returning with their equipment and be back to level 60 in less time than they were suspended and laughing quietly inside knowing that they cheated and got a slap on the wrist while many others were permantly banned for lesser offenses.
6) Gotten rid of people (cheaters) most of the population has no desire to see around at all.

The only thing we would still be dealing with would be the issue of raiding suspensions. This could easily be solved by just going off of what has set precedence in the past; if this includes suspending raiding for all guilds, then so be it.

I guess you learn from your mistakes.

[mitic]

Here are the facts:

Guild A later had a member caught using SEQ. Keep in mind he was not even at the potential raid. He was in Lguk farming. Guild A received another 2 week vacation from raiding.

Guild B has their raid leader caught using SEQ during an actual competitive raid. Guild B suffers no punishment.

so 1 (one) guy was caught back the day and got banned and his guild received a vaction from raiding, shit happens pal.

now, 365 (threehundredsixtyfive) ppl have been caught and all you want is a "revenge" for the past neglecting all other cheaters who have been caught too.

ok, iam all for that, but then again lets be 100% fair, do we?

what happens to the rest of those other threehundredfifty+ cheaters ? are we going to set every guild on raidvacation? i bet all my rl money that every single major guild had hackers in them (tmo included). i dont give a fuck if someone was an officer, leader, regularmember, a honorary member or the mascot of the guild cause a cheater is a cheater is a cheater is a cheater.

i would completely concur with you, if only (read: ONLY) TR would have been caught but in this exceptional circumstance of 365 busted cheaters u just cant blame 1-2ppl of 1 guild alone.

bottom line, it just can get better from now on since p99staff apparently found something viable to hunt them cheaters down. gj again rogean, secrets & nil.

[Kevlar]

I think the GMs should have stuck to the original server rules and perma banned these asshats. I can't say keeping a bunch of known hackers is enough to cause me to leave the server right at this moment, but it certainly has me keeping one foot in the door and looking at other EQEMU servers. The reason I picked this one in the first place was the strict rules which apparently aren't as strict as they originally sounded.

[mwatt]

You're confused. We're talking about 2 different things. I'm talking about a raid leader who was caught using a 3rd party hack during a competitive raid. This issue is beyond the 365 accounts being caught hacking. The 365 accounts should be banned permanently, but this is beyond that. Secondly, I don't believe in leniency when it comes to hacking anyways, so your premise concerning "special treatment" is null and void. I believe punishment should be handed out fairly and that hasn't happened yet.

Here are the facts:

1) Guild A had an officer caught using SEQ while tracking. Not during an actual raid mind you. Tracking. The punishment was a 2 week raid suspension for the entire guild.

Guild A later had a member caught using SEQ. Keep in mind he was not even at the potential raid. He was in Lguk farming. Guild A received another 2 week vacation from raiding. I agreed with both rulings. Guild A suffered as a result, and rightly so. They lost members. Weren't able to raid, and their reputation was damaged.

2) Guild B has their raid leader caught using SEQ during an actual competitive raid. Guild B suffers no punishment. Guild B claims they will accept the cheater back into their ranks with open arms. (which is basically a FU to the devs) Will probably also reward him with money and plvling. Keep in mind that not all their members know the right people within their guild to be given this opportunity.

The rules are the rules. This server is supposed to not be a haven for cheaters. Cheaters using 3rd party software are not supposed to be shown leniency. They undermine the credibility of the server.



I no longer trust them to do the right thing after this appalling ruling that is a slap in the face to every player who has played on this server for years by the rules. I hope they re evaluate their decision and do the right thing. It's long overdue.



Then Project 1999 should not have any rules against cheaters if they aren't going to properly enforce them. They shouldn't have raid suspended past guilds for using SEQ, and then let another guild slide without any punishment. Not even a warning. Nothing. Instead their guild members are creating threads, trying to manipulate the narrative that every other guild whose officers don't cheat will just have to keep quiet and suck it up.



By allowing those accounts to continue to be active here, we are now sharing the server with cheaters. You can spin it emotionally and rationalize it any way you want to, but at the end of the day you're sharing the server with cheaters. Ultimately it's up to you to decide if it's environment you want to spend your time in. I've been playing on this server a long time. The 365 banned accounts was bad enough, but for the developers to not permanently ban them and take action against guilds whose officers were caught hacking is appalling to me. I thought the devs had better sense than that and more pride in the community their project brought together.

Instead they are allowing a cancer to fester and grow.

Actually, I'm not confused at all. The opening premise of this post surely covers the 365 cheater episode. You may be referring to more than that in some of your posts, but it matters not to me. What I see here is a bunch of arm chair lawyering and people wanting absolute fairness in a system that is not a democracy. Considering the amount of absolute power that Rogean and staff has, I think they administer things pretty reasonably.

Your dramatic, "black and white" attitude towards a gray world does not impress me either. I have much more reason to trust in what Rogean says and does than to put faith and trust in what you say, whom I don't even know anything about. I don't care one whit about guild squabbles, and you impress me as someone who probably has a guild-based motivation at the root of your reasons for posting in these matters. If that is incorrect, my apologies.

As for "spinning it emotionally" - I have no idea why you think I am emotional about this. I am very calm and matter of fact. It seems to me that you are the one with the emotional investment.

Buttom line: yeah I still trust Rogean and definitely I trust his assertions more than yours. No offense, but he and his associates have given me EQ back. What have you done for me?

[mitic]

I think the GMs should have stuck to the original server rules and perma banned these asshats. I can't say keeping a bunch of known hackers is enough to cause me to leave the server right at this moment, but it certainly has me keeping one foot in the door and looking at other EQEMU servers. The reason I picked this one in the first place was the strict rules which apparently aren't as strict as they originally sounded.

i fail to understand your logic

so P99 is the first server in all eq-emu history that found a viable way to hunt them cheaters down and all i read is: "fuck this server, i gona leave"

there are rules here, yes, but sometimes there are exceptional circumstances overriding them rules.

[Hasbinbad]

Most of you guys are making valid points, but hardly any of them touch on the topic of this thread. The topic is that a small group of people are posting threads which are probably detrimental to the server over time, rather than following the outlined methods for voicing grievances. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with what you guys are saying, I'm disagreeing with how you're going about it. If you really want change for the server, follow the rules.

Go about it the right way: compile your evidence; present it in a clear and unmistakable manner to the correct people who have the power to do something about it; don't make useless waves on the server just to hear yourselves rouse rabble; If awareness is a serious issue, make ONE serious post about it in Server Chat (why would you post seriously in RnF, obviously nothing is going to be done about those posts), and gather your support in a realistic manner; present an alternative to the staff which is supported by a large percentage of the server. If THAT doesn't work, accept that fact and either get over it or quit.

Rabble rousing and torch waving isn't getting us anywhere. You're possibly scaring away new players and probably making older players (who had no part in cheating) want to quit. This is across the board and hardly debatable. The only reason I'm here is because of the negative morale shift I've seen (outside my guild mind you) since this latest tide of posts concerning how the rules weren't enforced to your liking. Questioning the GM's publicly is making them less likely to acquiesce to your requests, not more so.

So what are you guys gaining by continuing? Nothing. You get to hear yourselves rant and circle jerk each other into nerdgasm with your shared hatred of Perun, slavering for revenge, blind to the harm you're causing innocents.

So how about you guys organize and go about it in such a way that something might be accomplished. That or sack up and realize things don't always go your way and just stop with the 3rd grade hatespam.

[Autotune]

so 1 (one) guy was caught back the day and got banned and his guild received a vaction from raiding, shit happens pal.

now, 365 (threehundredsixtyfive) ppl have been caught and all you want is a "revenge" for the past neglecting all other cheaters who have been caught too.

ok, iam all for that, but then again lets be 100% fair, do we?

what happens to the rest of those other threehundredfifty+ cheaters ? are we going to set every guild on raidvacation? i bet all my rl money that every single major guild had hackers in them (tmo included). i dont give a fuck if someone was an officer, leader, regularmember, a honorary member or the mascot of the guild cause a cheater is a cheater is a cheater is a cheater.

i would completely concur with you, if only (read: ONLY) TR would have been caught but in this exceptional circumstance of 365 busted cheaters u just cant blame 1-2ppl of 1 guild alone.

bottom line, it just can get better from now on since p99staff apparently found something viable to hunt them cheaters down. gj again rogean, secrets & nil.

1 account =/= 1 person.

[Aenor]

Is the freedom of people to speak their mind - in a manner which has been prohibited, and when the proper manner has been outlined - worth the negative impact this campaign is probably having on this community?

Again, as an outsider on Blue 99 (bout to ding 13 on my dru), and as a sometime PR professional, here's my perspective. While your reasoning certainly follows the letter of the law, it is very obvious that Rogean and Nilbog are setting aside those rules in this instance so as not to appear as if they have something to hide. Allowing people to question the legitimacy of the project does less damage than shutting those people up and confirming their suspicions.

Their agenda seems to be the long term health of the project. Your agenda seems to be to ease the inconvenience of the ongoing discussion for yourself and your ingame associates.

[Daldolma]

ITT: people who think their opinions matter more than they do.

This is Nilbog and Rogean's server. They've made their decision. They've explained their decision. They've read days' worth of gripes about their decision. Nothing you post for the 27th time is going to change their mind. Civil discussion over the situation is fine. The discussion over the punishments has been had and run into the ground half a dozen times over already. Nothing new is being said. You're not a snowflake. If you feel that you have something super duper important that Nilbog and Rogean absolutely must hear before they lift the suspensions, make your way over to the petition forum and fill them in. Otherwise, your clear intent is to be subversive, ultimately deteriorating the quality of the server.

And yes, even if you have the best intentions in mind, if you're continually griping about a decision without going through the proper channels, you are intentionally being subversive. Regardless, HBB's post isn't even directed at those offenders, as far as I can tell. I think HBB is pretty much just referring to the forum trolls and butthurt ex-DA that have been calling for TR blood for a week straight, every minute on the minute.

[mitic]

1 account =/= 1 person.

id wish nilbog/rogean would release a list. this would be just fair for all parties concerned (tmo/tr/uthgaard/etc...), especialy since the banhammer wasnt taken out.

[Daldolma]

Oh, and just for the record, I think everyone caught cheating should have been banned -- or stripped of all gear at the very least. But like I said, those opinions have been heard ad nauseum already. The decision is made. I've moved on. You can, too.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Hasbinbad your post isn't designed to show people the way to influence GMs and get what they want by posting in a more constructive manner. If you wanted positive change you would address what led to all of this. IN GAME actions. The rules were created due to the actions of a few against a server of many. The raid guilds at the 'top' acting like assholes for so long all of the red tape was created more red tape on top of red tape. I stand by that the manner to fix the problem was to go to the core of the issue, the behavior in game. Because if that was working as it should all of the stuff you complain about wouldn't exist. You preach about posting in a manner so as not to have things look negative here but ignore the acting in a manner to achieve the same.

All the raid guilds on top whomever had to do was not create what we have now. The atmosphere and environment a very small percentage of the population has created is the problem. I would say the people who are up in arms right now care more about the server's reputation and health more then you say to. When IB or TR got to the top with no 'competition' it would have been easy to affect change. Yet greed and arrogance led us to this. You claim people have the same chance due to fair play and fair competition but it isn't. Ever see those commercials where the kids get the run around from the banker, the ally bank commercials? Here is one you can youtube the rest.

It is wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWo-vDVajns&feature=related)

It is wrong (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgdTymCZowU&feature=relmfu)

It is cause and effect. What will happen in society if times get tougher and now their kids are starving? Protests. Crime goes up. More arrests. Crime goes up some more. Looting. Riots. Social breakdown. The national guard is called in. Martial law. Heck watch V for Vendetta. This is all effect Hasbinad, not cause. I agree with you about the posting reflecting negatively but you played your part in it coming to this. Maybe one of you geniuses could've seen it coming and prevented it. What will happen if we make sure no other guild gets raid targets guys? Is that good or bad for the server. Think they'll mind? Maybe we can help perpetuate a system where the process to get a raid mob becomes so convoluted and bothersome they simply will go away and stop trying. And despite that when it comes out you guys were 'starving' people in an eq sense, mocking them and lording over them, destroying their guilds and friendships and weren't doing it on the up and up you are surprised at the reaction? You blame people who are outraged for turning people away from the server? What about the hundreds who left because of the raid environment here?

It astounds me you think giving a car a new paint job will fix the engine problem. New wallpaper when the house beams are rotting from termites. When your house is crawling with ants don't clean it, throw away garbage and secure food. Just spray ant and roach killer. Put a bandaid on a broken arm.

Again, fix the core issues, the heart of all this. IN GAME actions. And all of this on the forums would go back to the normal RnF silly posts. I am talking about quite simply what you ignore. The nice part of raid nice play nice. And practice what your preach. You can't spit in a man's face and then when he comes looking for blood give him some eye for an eye speech. You don't kick a man's dog and then cry to the police about vandalism when he busts your windows and slashes your car tires. You don't want the guy slashing tires don't kick his fucking dog. You don't want people to cry in outrage? The answer is simple.

This made me chuckle though... the mascot of the guild from Mitic. lol

[mitic]

it comes out you guys were 'starving' people in an eq sense, mocking them and lording over them, destroying their guilds and friendships and weren't doing it on the up and up you are surprised at the reaction? You blame people who are outraged for turning people away from the server? What about the hundreds who left because of the raid environment here?

if you cant fight them with your own weapons use theirs then and camp bosses, do rotations 24/7 to keep them on track, use batphones and stop blaming them on the forums. the only thing you get out of this is showing your own incapacity not being able to get things done.

saying that TR is responsible for destroying others guilds or friendships is just another affirmation about your very own weakness.

besides that,this is where red99 kicks in. join red and sort it out in a different and more competitive way.

[Skope]

HBB, there's always going to be idiots bickering here, spouting the same crap over and over again. You're not noting the difference between someone who can put together an informative, coherent and logical argument and the usual background noise.

I agree with you. This thread proves you right. There are a lot of people yapping endlessly, whether because they're ticked off or because they're ticked off because people are ticked off, but censoring certain posts that should be available for everyone to read in favor of a direct telephone line with the GMs that's prone to blackout isn't fair. Want an example? I've asked both Rogean and nilbog if they'll consider harsher punishments in PM, here and another thread and have yet to get any sort of answer. You're arguing that both the worthy and unworthy shit be redirected away from the rest of the community. That doesn't make any sense, broham. If there's a single thread to prove why you're so dead wrong it's in your own thread.

[Francois]

I see myself as basically a guest in the house that is this server. Therefore I try to conduct myself politely and not give my host any cause for concern or dismay.

Agreed. If I paid anything for this server, I may feel that I have the right to have a solid input on how it operates. I just can't understand how it's possible to sit at your computer all day writing hateful messages about people that are providing a free service. In the end it never ends up accomplishing anything positive.

There are plenty of other options for people to spew negativity that aren't one of the first things new players see when coming to P99. Rants and Flames has turned into a witch hunt where you can get away with making wild accusations with zero evidence. For example, it was posted that it was "confirmed" that I was suspended.

Most veteran members of P99 can tell the difference between propaganda campaigns and the truth. However, newcomers might not know that there's an army of trolls spreading misinformation about the integrity of the server.

tl;dr - Post your garbage on your guild website.

[Humerox]

Agreed. If I paid anything for this server, I may feel that I have the right to have a solid input on how it operates. I just can't understand how it's possible to sit at your computer all day writing hateful messages about people that are providing a free service. In the end it never ends up accomplishing anything positive.

Community anger isn't directed at Nilbog and Rogean, and the few that question their integrity are dolts. If anything, they should be the ones most infuriated about what unscrupulous people have done to their project. The ones cheating were making a mockery of Project99.

[Kelven]

You know it's not really the cheating that hurts this server.

It's the constant bickering about every little god damn thing between EVERYONE on this server, that's always been the achilles heel.

Everyone feels that just because you created a character here and spent hours sitting here leveling that you're entitled to have a say in what goes on?

If I had just happened to find out about this server recently, there would be no way I'd spend time leveling here after reading even 2 posts in server chat/rants and flames. God forbid they even looked at the pvp forums.. :mad:

[druziil]

i posted this in another thread a few days ago

RnF has not been used the way it was ment to be in the last several weeks. People are using it as a soapbox and exploiting the ruleless nature of it to inflame the community over grossley exaggerated issues regarding GM/Staff decisions. If the posted rules about not questioning GM/Staff desicions were enforced more appropriately I could get back to telling people that TMO is full of bad players and that tiggles ia fat.

There is a place for legitimate discussions regarding server issues. It's called server chat. Make valid points in a reasonable way and good things happen.

Having a debate over a decision that was made and how you feel about it would be a legitimate post. If you feel it was a bad decision and you can voice that opinion in a reasonable way then that is a post you can make. All this bullshit swirling around WHY that decision was made the way it was is the questioning part that gets us absolutely no where.

Am i happy with how things went down the last 2 weeks? No. Would i like things to be different (better)? Yes. Can i get over it and keep playing? Sure. The real truth of the matter is that while I feel the cheaters caught where not adequately dealt with it really doesn't affect me as much as it would seem. A lot of my time spent grouping and whatnot with guild mates never directly encountered TR or TMO. It is only on those 1 or 2 hour raid days that this happens and to be frank their play-style/attitude is more of an issue then the fact that a dozen or so were using cheats.

And as far as the Dev abuse scandal, good enough for the tabloids but not the 11 o'clock news. If you believe what has been accused then it still only affects me minimally, and i'm not sure i 100% believe what has been accused.

[Envious]

What most of us can agree on:

If they had just stuck to their rules and banned all the accounts, we would:

1) Still have Uthgaard.
2) See minimal impact on server population (apparent now)
3) 95% of the drama over the past week would not exist.
4) Still have tags /cryface
5) Not have several high level cheaters returning with their equipment and be back to level 60 in less time than they were suspended and laughing quietly inside knowing that they cheated and got a slap on the wrist while many others were permantly banned for lesser offenses.
6) Gotten rid of people (cheaters) most of the population has no desire to see around at all.

Had to read another couple pages... drama is always fun stuff.

As for Hasbinbad, its hard to get a true gauge for the feeling of a issue based purely on private communication. You need an open forum to discuss those things, and that is the point of the boards. If the server staff made a mistake, openly is the place to have the discussion about it.

Keeping things private and veiled is what will ultimately break P99. We saw this 5x on VZ/TZ with 3 or 4 completely different sets of players. Transparency is the best policy, pure and simple. And you have to create a set of rules, and hold to them like a crack fiend holds onto his last rock.

[Nirgon]

Not like we can point a finger back at the players for ivandyr hooping mobs and not agreeing to a boss kill rotation or anything. That doesn't screw anything up.

It's always the fault of "Blizz"/"Trion"/"Whoever", it's never, ever the scum bag community that screws up the... community... wait.. I see ... what I did there.

[Vile]

out the hackers and ban them.

/end thread

[Labyrrinth]

Not like we can point a finger back at the players for ivandyr hooping mobs and not agreeing to a boss kill rotation or anything. That doesn't screw anything up.

It's always the fault of "Blizz"/"Trion"/"Whoever", it's never, ever the scum bag community that screws up the... community... wait.. I see ... what I did there.

You're misconstruing things.
Using what's available to take down a mob isn't the problem. If it's not meant to be it'll be changed. If it's considered an exploit, then that communication needs to happen so that everyone is aware.

Not agreeing to rotations isnt' the problem.
Would an overall agreement make things easier for all involved? Of course it would. But that wasn't the issue here.

The issue was a decision made on how to punish cheaters and hackers. A decision that wasn't in line with how other cheaters and hackers have been punished in the past. Some people it seems, feel that the GM's decision on this matter shouldn't be questioned or looked at more closely, while there are others that feel quite differently on the subject.

[mitic]

i got teh solution!

enforce boss rotation on blue99
if you dont like that, join red99

[Francois]

Community anger isn't directed at Nilbog and Rogean, and the few that question their integrity are dolts. If anything, they should be the ones most infuriated about what unscrupulous people have done to their project. The ones cheating were making a mockery of Project99.

That's just not true. People are upset about a suspension being issued instead of a ban, wiping plat and not items, people crying foul for the lack of raid suspensions, there have been several threads spewing hate about Uthgaard, several more about Xzerion, etc.


out the hackers and ban them.

/end thread

Go ahead and read a thread before you post, that should keep you on topic.

[G13]

Actually, I'm not confused at all. The opening premise of this post surely covers the 365 cheater episode. You may be referring to more than that in some of your posts, but it matters not to me. What I see here is a bunch of arm chair lawyering and people wanting absolute fairness in a system that is not a democracy. Considering the amount of absolute power that Rogean and staff has, I think they administer things pretty reasonably.

You completely ignored my points in the previous post. Please read it again. 364 accounts are irrelevant to my main point.

Your dramatic, "black and white" attitude towards a gray world does not impress me either. I have much more reason to trust in what Rogean says and does than to put faith and trust in what you say, whom I don't even know anything about. I don't care one whit about guild squabbles, and you impress me as someone who probably has a guild-based motivation at the root of your reasons for posting in these matters. If that is incorrect, my apologies.

You're doing nothing more than ignoring the facts that have been presented to you, and are now engaging in projection and hyperbole. The fact of the matter is the rules have not been enforced equally. All I care about are the rules being enforced equally across the board. Otherwise this is just a corrupt box.

As for "spinning it emotionally" - I have no idea why you think I am emotional about this. I am very calm and matter of fact. It seems to me that you are the one with the emotional investment.

You are not making a logical argument. You are not using any past precedent to back up your opinions with facts and logic. You are offering your opinion. Nothing more. Past events on this server have set the precedent on how development responds to guild leadership CHEATING during competitive raids. You can try and dress up your opinion any way you want. It's irrelavent in the face of the facts.

One guild was raid suspended for their leadership using a 3rd party program

One was not

Those are the facts. Not your opinion. Fact.

Buttom line: yeah I still trust Rogean and definitely I trust his assertions more than yours. No offense, but he and his associates have given me EQ back. What have you done for me?

This is purely emotional. Not logical. You're ignoring facts and siding with someone because they "gave you your EQ back".

[Banai]

Just ban all the poopsocking morons and be done with it

[Durison]

I can tell you that it was a rough time when Dark Ascension was suspended for a week when a one member was caught using MQ in Lower Guk, while our raid force was in Sol B. Dark Ascension was also referred to as a guild who harboured cheaters by the staff, and during this time a guide allowed for the ALT's of IB to create a guild called Dark Suspension. Very Mature~

It's ironic how the tables have turned.

In memory of DA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmBBNFzWN9k

[Barkingturtle]

I read the first post. That's all. Here is what I think of it:

Between the cheating, half-assed punishments, and disdain for dissenting opinions, well, new players should be scared of this server. And frankly, as a member of a community one has a responsibility to question the decisions of its leaders when those decisions are, for whatever reason, unpredictable and inconsistent. Of course, they've said before that this is their place and theirs alone, players be damned, but that rings a bit hollow when multitudes of cheaters go on playing because they've become an entity too big to fail. Like CitiGroup, but with more back acne.

Personally, I won't participate in a server where cheaters are allowed to keep playing, nor will I participate in discussions where I am selectively censored in order to dupe prospective players into joining what they think is a server not suffering these ills.

This thread is as vile a piece of propaganda as it accuses others of perpetrating. It is blatant trolling and should be moved to RnF else it is lent credibility. I would question why it hasn't been moved already, but I'm not sure to whom I would pose the query without offending Hasbin's gentle sensibilities.

[Aadill]

Between the cheating, half-assed punishments, and disdain for dissenting opinions, well, new players should be scared of this server. And frankly, as a member of a community one has a responsibility to question the decisions of its leaders when those decisions are, for whatever reason, unpredictable and inconsistent.

Most of the dissent is taking place in this context. The "WIPE IT CLEAN" crowd, perhaps goes overboard but most people are discontent with the fact that the rule that everyone has followed when they "Agreed to the Project 1999 EULA" was null and void for this case due to an inconsistency in the very philosophy of the server staff at large.

As mentioned, previous instances in which players or entities were reprimanded for similar reasons resulted in public knowledge and ridicule well beyond what should have occurred, according to this thread. That was no healthier to the server than what is being exclaimed now, yet it went on for months via thread tags, posts, and in game. This is the same thing on a larger scale, affecting more people, and now it's no longer okay? The problem people have is that their friends, guildmates, groupmates, forum buddies, etc betrayed their trust. Sure it's over pixels but it's still unseeming of a server that promotes fairness to have a rampant problem that people wan to push under the rug.

I'm for quelling the loudmouths that are shouting WIPE IT CLEAN, but beyond that you should expect dissent. I don't see anything wrong with that whether the opinion is in the majority or minority. Transparency is important.

Actual edit: ONLY private discourse involving such a public matter would not promote transparency or trust, especially at this point. Due to the fact that the population at large is not getting a master list of everyone that was suspended, it should not come as a surprise that people are voicing disapproval and even saying they don't want to stick around because they're not sure whether their groupmmate is a cheater or not. As mentioned by some, this is a fairly huge deal as the covenant of trust was broken between the players who "Accepted the Terms of Agreement of the P99 EULA" and those that decided to ignore it.

[booter]

http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-words.gif

Yes, we know you have this fairness crusade to get TR raid suspended for two weeks, but that really isn't the topic of this thread at all. In fact, you're proving the OP's point by not going through the proper channels for it.

This thread is about HOW/WHERE you go about questioning GM decisions and how that affects the overall health of the server - it is not the place to actually DO that.

Start a new thread for this discussion if you honestly want it to go anywhere, instead of cluttering up this surprisingly constructive thread.

Personally, I won't participate in a server where cheaters are allowed to keep playing, nor will I participate in discussions where I am selectively censored in order to dupe prospective players into joining what they think is a server not suffering these ills.

The cheaters who will be joining us again soon won't be cheating anymore. They'll be caught and permanently removed if they do it again, since we know the staff can detect it. Does everyone agree that they should be able to play again? No. Are they going to be? Yes. Were there more variables to the staff's decision than most players probably realize? Most definitely.

[Demetrium]

I read the first post. That's all. Here is what I think of it:

Between the cheating, half-assed punishments, and disdain for dissenting opinions, well, new players should be scared of this server. And frankly, as a member of a community one has a responsibility to question the decisions of its leaders when those decisions are, for whatever reason, unpredictable and inconsistent. Of course, they've said before that this is their place and theirs alone, players be damned, but that rings a bit hollow when multitudes of cheaters go on playing because they've become an entity too big to fail. Like CitiGroup, but with more back acne.

Personally, I won't participate in a server where cheaters are allowed to keep playing, nor will I participate in discussions where I am selectively censored in order to dupe prospective players into joining what they think is a server not suffering these ills.

This thread is as vile a piece of propaganda as it accuses others of perpetrating. It is blatant trolling and should be moved to RnF else it is lent credibility. I would question why it hasn't been moved already, but I'm not sure to whom I would pose the query without offending Hasbin's gentle sensibilities.

[yaaaflow]

Personally, I won't participate in a server where cheaters are allowed to keep playing, nor will I participate in discussions where I am selectively censored in order to dupe prospective players into joining what they think is a server not suffering these ills.

So just out of interest, shouldn't everyone who agrees with the above have been mad about this and quit like, more than a year ago? I mean just as a couple examples (and I like and respect both people I'm using as examples fwiw) Jeremy gets caught 2 boxing, is suspended and back playing about a month later. Koota gets caught using SEQ to track for his guild, is back playing a couple months later. Both of these happened > 1 year ago.

The GMs have shown leniency to people caught cheating in the past, is this so different? Seems to me the punishment handed out to the cheaters in this case is as or more severe than given in the two cases listed above.

[Barkingturtle]

The cheaters who will be joining us again soon won't be cheating anymore. They'll be caught and permanently removed if they do it again, since we know the staff can detect it.

We know the staff could detect it. Right now we see announced on the front page that they can't at present. In any event, we don't know that future offenders will be banned, because the precedent isn't that. It's the opposite.

Does everyone agree that they should be able to play again? No. Are they going to be? Yes. Were there more variables to the staff's decision than most players probably realize? Most definitely.

The other variables? Those are what trouble me. There should be no other variables. This has always been THEIR server, furiously so when defending unpopular decisions. Now they catch hundreds of accounts perverting THEIR server and, well? Suddenly the cheaters aren't the server's detriment, but rather the users disgusted by their displayed lack of testicular fortitude? Suddenly in-game subversiveness is less harmful to the server than out of game candor?

Bullshit.

The main variable is good ol' fashioned hypocrisy. It's easy to say you'll do the hard thing, but when it comes time to do it and it's still the same hard thing, well not everyone can do that. And that's best-case scenario right there: that it was just too difficult a thing to eliminate that many presumably high-profile accounts. That it was too unpalatable. And that is just disappointing.

[Mardur]

Moreso that punishments are handed out completely at random. Perhaps Rogean has a banhammer dartboard in the office.

[Nedala]

I can tell you that it was a rough time when Dark Ascension was suspended for a week when a one member was caught using MQ in Lower Guk, while our raid force was in Sol B. Dark Ascension was also referred to as a guild who harboured cheaters by the staff, and during this time a guide allowed for the ALT's of IB to create a guild called Dark Suspension. Very Mature~

It's ironic how the tables have turned.

In memory of DA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmBBNFzWN9k

Since a lot of people are crying for a raid suspension of TR atm, im very surprised one thing hasnt come up so far:

DA wasnt raid suspeded just cause one of their members used SEQ in lguk while they were in solb.

DA hacked the database to gain acces to spawn timers before raid mobs even spawned. DA rolled up in full force multiple times a few minutes before a raidmob spawned.

And then they got punished, and then koota tracked raidmobswith SEQ and they got punished again.

And then some dude of DA used seq for personal gain in lguk, and you got punished again, which was probably unfair but it happened cause the GMs were already mad at you guys cause of the bullshit that happened before.

TR isnt raid suspended cause peruns usage of SEQ didnt give us any raid advantage. Also why is nobody crying for a permanent ban for koota and jeremy ? Why did skope not ragequit the server when the people who were "permanently banned" were allowed back to the server?

I wonder how many people didnt know that, just like almost every time a GM decision happens nobody knows all the inside informations, and thats why you should just trust rogean and nilbog and not question their decisions all the time, cause there is always something you dont know.

Let's get back on topic now.

[Barkingturtle]

Also why is nobody crying for a permanent ban for koota and jeremy ?


I guess it probably caused less of an uproar because there wasn't a huge post on the home page about it. Just a guess, though. Anyway, you have my endorsement. Ban 'em. Ban cheaters.

[G13]

Yes, we know you have this fairness crusade to get TR raid suspended for two weeks, but that really isn't the topic of this thread at all. In fact, you're proving the OP's point by not going through the proper channels for it.

Of course it is. The rules are the rules and they should be enforced equally across the board. Your own guild is ignoring it's own rules as stated by your guild leader on these very boards. Development is completely ignoring the rules they put into place. You are also allowing the cheaters to re-app, and if they are part of the officer clique, they will enjoy plvling to get them back leading your raids ASAP. This has been proudly proclaimed in solidarity with your "pals".

I don't care what guild you are in. I don't care who your friends are. Rules and punishments have no bias. They are supposed to apply to everyone equally, regardless. 365 accounts caught cheating should = 365 accounts banned. Raid leaders caught cheating during a competitive raid should = raid suspension for offending guild. This should apply to any guild on the server. Period. No exceptions.

Apparently your guild cares more about loot than it's integrity. This was not always what IB claimed it stood for. Why yuor membership continues to circle the wagons is perplexing. Your reputation is in the toilet and you're just digging a deeper hole by defending your leadership who either knew about it or were too stupid to not realize it was happening right under their nose.

This thread is about HOW/WHERE you go about questioning GM decisions and how that affects the overall health of the server - it is not the place to actually DO that.

Start a new thread for this discussion if you honestly want it to go anywhere, instead of cluttering up this surprisingly constructive thread.

This thread is about Hasbinbad trying to sweep this under the rug because the facts surrounding the situation are incredibly embarrassing to his guild. I can guarantee if the roles were reversed and a TMO Officer was caught red handed using a 3rd party hack lile Perun was, HBB would be creating thread demanding TMO be disbanded immediately and Durison tarred and feathered.

The cheaters who will be joining us again soon won't be cheating anymore. They'll be caught and permanently removed if they do it again, since we know the staff can detect it. Does everyone agree that they should be able to play again? No. Are they going to be? Yes. Were there more variables to the staff's decision than most players probably realize? Most definitely.

This is a joke right? We're supposed to take you at your word? A guild who's raid leader cheats? A guild who's leader put people in positions of leadership who cheat? There is no possible way you can guarantee this. The only way to guarantee these cheaters never cheat again is to ban their accounts permanently. Problem solved.

Why you are associating yourself with people who cheat and are now defending them on the boards speaks volumes. Nobody gives a crap if they are "Your homeys". As far as the non cheating community is concerned, they are a disgrace.

[Slathar]

TR isnt raid suspended cause peruns usage of SEQ didnt give us any raid advantage.


according to your guild. please enlighten me, how is knowing the exact location of a raid mob and the best path for pulling it with no adds not an incredible advantage? and you're also assuming that he only used it once - this is only a claim by perun and not a fact. actually, it's more than likely a lie given the amount of cheaters that were suspended in TR.

your argument is ridiculous.

[Nedala]

Gms can check when and how often he used it. You know, perun is a monk and therefore not out pulling dragons, how is it an advantage for the raid if he knows where the mob is and not telling anyone?

[G13]

Gms can check when and how often he used it. You know, perun is a monk and therefore not out pulling dragons, how is it an advantage for the raid if he knows where the mob is and not telling anyone?

You mean how Perun exploited Vox's pathing to pull her through the cubby/wall to the ZL?

How do you know he wasn't using SEQ to check giant pathing in the lair to accomplish this?

[Hasbinbad]

OK Guys. This thread is not for discussing inter guild politics and such, there are plenty of threads for that, and you always have the option of making another one. Lets try and focus on the end result of all of the torch waving going on in different threads. It's not going to change what the GM's decided, and it's not helping get out awareness as the audience is already hyper-aware of the situation. Let's just cool it off guys.

Whatever happens, please keep this thread on topic.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Not true mitic. The if you can't beat em join em only applies on a level playing field. If someone is deliberately using anything others don't have access to (and this covers more then just 3rd party programs) to give them an unfair advantage then it isn't level. We are talkin deliberate willful knowing acts. There is only one game in town as far as a classic eq emu server and there is no reason multiple guilds can't raid the same targets here. Your argument that obviously we are all impotent, ignorant, and incapable is a joke.

if you cant fight them with your own weapons use theirs then and camp bosses, do rotations 24/7 to keep them on track, use batphones and stop blaming them on the forums. the only thing you get out of this is showing your own incapacity not being able to get things done.

We aren't talking about batphones here, or players who track 24/7. This thread over the uproar isn't about that.

saying that TR is responsible for destroying others guilds or friendships is just another affirmation about your very own weakness.


To use underhanded or unscrupulous tactics in whatever form to maintain an edge is condemnable and if willful, deliberate, and completely knowingly why then yes, I can point the finger of judgement. The people who don't resort to these whatever means necessary tactics are the ones not giving in to weakness. Let me speak hypothetically (or non-hypothetically from some point of view). If guild A knows exactly what mob spawns when and because of that stays on top and uses the fact they get all the raid mobs then you are saying the other guilds must be ineffectual and it affirms their weakness and inability to compete? It isn't weakness to not submit to greed. It is weakness to give in to that greed (not in all cases I grant you) where loot matters more. And preying on that weakness is what happens. And if your ability to use this method relies on you having an unfair advantage we all just suck because we can't. People that are aware or experience unfairness and have chosen to leave are just weak and obviously incompetent mental morons who can't compete because they have the ability to sink to that level. And when some do sink to that level they're bad people who cheat and train and rant and flame.


i got teh solution!

enforce boss rotation on blue99
if you dont like that, join red99

Now that is what I have been saying all along. Enforce rules and play nice on PVE and if you want anything goes where you can you step on your opponent's throat by any means necessary then go PvP. Way it has always been hasn't it?


And Hasbinbad it is on this topic because it directly correlates. It keeps going off topic (or back on topic) because of the fact is is related. You cry to put down the flames and while I am with you in principle I am not with you to censor anything that might cry outrage at what has been going on apparently on this server. Questioning GM decisions should be a dead issue because that was posted by Rogean a while back but if people feel strongly about something they believe to be a moral or ethical issue you are going to hear about it. Forums are a place to do that are they not? And if you value your reputation perhaps you should not be part of the machine that leads people to feel such outrage.


Gms can check when and how often he used it. You know, perun is a monk and therefore not out pulling dragons, how is it an advantage for the raid if he knows where the mob is and not telling anyone?

Nedala I know what you mean but the statement is ignorant. The very notion that obviously monks don't pull is something new to me. Perhaps some don't but to think that because TR doesn't use their monks to pull doesn't mean that obviously this is how it is done. You also state that if he knows where the mob is he doesn't tell anyone. Yeah I am sure no one else gets the information or it isn't used to an advantage. I was thinking about this the other day and going to say this just for argument's sake because obviously I don't know if it actually happened. But I have played this game a long time and I have led and pulled raids at the 'top end' as you are for years earlier in my gaming. Zone a monk into fear and get all the information you want. You don't have to tell anyone where guild A is or what the situation is, especially if you're a raid leader. Just direct your raid to do such and such and none the wiser. Zone into EJ and know the other guild has Sev and where. Know exactly where their force is and exactly where to set up. And that is just if we assume no one got told. Hell (and I am about to speculate here merely because you made the point using seq gives no advantage) you could take it further if you know what loot a mob has you know whether to go for that raid target that day or go for another first. If you know dracoliche has 2 shaman hammers with CT wielding 4 darkwood trunks and Innoruuk has 2 mage staves and a necro book well that could have an advantage too. All that said I find it boggling that you obviously believe monks don't pull dragons duh. Besides the obvious tactical advantages that exist in certain situations and knowing it is more about the player's level of skill and experience then simply the class ( meaning a good paladin could do the job versus a monk that only knows auto attack) to just think that is how all monks play duh baffles me.

[Barkingturtle]

Lets try and focus on the end result of all of the torch waving going on in different threads.

No no no.

The outrage directed at cheaters is not the problem. The cheaters are.

This thread is entirely self-serving. You couldn't care less about this server's health.

[mwatt]

You completely ignored my points in the previous post. Please read it again. 364 accounts are irrelevant to my main point.



You're doing nothing more than ignoring the facts that have been presented to you, and are now engaging in projection and hyperbole. The fact of the matter is the rules have not been enforced equally. All I care about are the rules being enforced equally across the board. Otherwise this is just a corrupt box.



You are not making a logical argument. You are not using any past precedent to back up your opinions with facts and logic. You are offering your opinion. Nothing more. Past events on this server have set the precedent on how development responds to guild leadership CHEATING during competitive raids. You can try and dress up your opinion any way you want. It's irrelavent in the face of the facts.

One guild was raid suspended for their leadership using a 3rd party program

One was not

Those are the facts. Not your opinion. Fact.



This is purely emotional. Not logical. You're ignoring facts and siding with someone because they "gave you your EQ back".

This is my last post in this thread. I'm tired of responding to YOUR hyperbole and emotional arguments, while you simultaneously accuse me falsely of these very things that you are doing.

Your so-called facts are irrelevant in the face of other facts that make yours essentially meaningless. You do not want to hear the important points that I am making. Let me state them again and try to make it as blunt as I can, cause I am done with this.

1) We are all guests here - you have no rights, other than the right to not play.

2) You need to get over the idea that everything needs to be, can be or will be fair in life. Life is fundamentally unfair. Grow up. Get used to it. That doesn't mean you should simply accept every injustice, but you have to use good judgement and know how far you can push things. You are not using good judgement in this case or you don't have it. Let it go, you have already lost and your strident mantra that the devs are unfair is merely serving to stink up the boards at this point.

3) I reject the idea that Rogean and crew have been fundamentally unfair. You present some information you call facts, but I have no way to verify them and no way to know what you left out. The "rebuttal" from Rogean in another thread includes that statement that not all information used to judge a situation will always be publicly known. Since I trust him, I have to believe that either you are holding back info or there is stuff you don't know about the situation you are so incensed about.

4) The people who make the server make the rules. They can decide if and when situations are such that an ammendment of normal punishments should be made. Though it is entirely within their right, they did not even change the rules - they just changed the punishment for the rules. Even our own judicial system gives judges leeway to do this. Them doing so does NOT make this a corrupt box. That is YOUR judgement, YOUR name calling and YOUR problem.

5) I expect a certain degree of autocracy here, because that is exactly what it is, whether you like it of not. Inherent in the idea of autocracy is a degree of unfairness. I like this game implementation so much that I am willing to put up with that. It is the price of admission. So, even if Rogean and company were being repeatedly, unequivically unfair, I would STILL play here unless it reached the point where I just couldn't bear it. In that case, I would leave. I would no be so naive and irritating as to think I could get my way by inciting popular unrest.

[Dirt McGirt]

^^^

lol its a videogame pal

[Skope]

This is my last post in this thread. I'm tired of responding to YOUR hyperbole and emotional arguments, while you simultaneously accuse me falsely of these very things that you are doing.

Your so-called facts are irrelevant in the face of other facts that make yours essentially meaningless. You do not want to hear the important points that I am making. Let me state them again and try to make it as blunt as I can, cause I am done with this.

1) We are all guests here - you have no rights, other than the right to not play.

2) You need to get over the idea that everything needs to be, can be or will be fair in life. Life is fundamentally unfair. Grow up. Get used to it. That doesn't mean you should simply accept every injustice, but you have to use good judgement and know how far you can push things. You are not using good judgement in this case or you don't have it. Let it go, you have already lost and your strident mantra that the devs are unfair is merely serving to stink up the boards at this point.

3) I reject the idea that Rogean and crew have been fundamentally unfair. You present some information you call facts, but I have no way to verify them and no way to know what you left out. The "rebuttal" from Rogean in another thread includes that statement that not all information used to judge a situation will always be publicly known. Since I trust him, I have to believe that either you are holding back info or there is stuff you don't know about the situation you are so incensed about.

4) The people who make the server make the rules. They can decide if and when situations are such that an ammendment of normal punishments should be made. Though it is entirely within their right, they did not even change the rules - they just changed the punishment for the rules. Even our own judicial system gives judges leeway to do this. Them doing so does NOT make this a corrupt box. That is YOUR judgement, YOUR name calling and YOUR problem.

5) I expect a certain degree of autocracy here, because that is exactly what it is, whether you like it of not. Inherent in the idea of autocracy is a degree of unfairness. I like this game implementation so much that I am willing to put up with that. It is the price of admission. So, even if Rogean and company were being repeatedly, unequivically unfair, I would STILL play here unless it reached the point where I just couldn't bear it. In that case, I would leave. I would no be so naive and irritating as to think I could get my way by inciting popular unrest.

I agree with you. This is an autocracy. but as I've stated -- and many many times over -- is that people ARE willing and have already called it quits. The argument that life isn't fair (good one) doesn't mean squat when you fail to realistically apply fairness and equality of judgments and punishments. It's something that you strive for and not something that you neglect because life isn't fair.

Currently the GMs decisions have favored current cheaters over previous cheaters, they've favored certain guilds over others in terms of guild-wide punishments and thus there are some obvious inconsistencies in the way that the rules are applied. This isn't somebody's uninformed opinion either.


1) We are all guests here - you have no rights, other than the right to not play.

I've exercised that right. But if that's the way the server works and expects no input even when the staff makes mistakes then i can promise you it won't last very long.

Nedala, Perun himself explained how it gave you guys an advantage when he explained why/how he was caught on your forums. Koota used SEQ to track a mob that spawned on him, Perun used SEQ to track mobs/players in the zone. Both of them used the program and gained an advantage.

[nalkin]

The gms/devs do listen to what the server thinks, probably not that much, but saying that speaking up will not change anything is wrong. It may not, but there is a chance that it will; it has before. Especially on something that almost the entire server agrees on. Remember global ooc my friends?

WHAT DO WE WANT?????
WHEN DO WE WANT IT??????

[Autotune]

WHAT DO WE WANT?????
WHEN DO WE WANT IT??????

my money.

NAO!

[Demetrium]

Nanny nanny boo boo I can't hear you!

[booter]

This thread is about Hasbinbad trying to sweep this under the rug because the facts surrounding the situation are incredibly embarrassing to his guild. I can guarantee if the roles were reversed and a TMO Officer was caught red handed using a 3rd party hack lile Perun was, HBB would be creating thread demanding TMO be disbanded immediately and Durison tarred and feathered.

Just because you see everything on this server as TR vs TMO does not make it so. This thread has had a lot of great discussion, and your personal attacks and paranoia do nothing but edge it closer to RnF. By your logic, I could argue that you are trying to derail the thread to get it into the dead-end known as RnF so any discussion that doesn't fit your narrative disappears.

Nice job with all of your generalizations about every member of TR, though. At least it makes your intentions transparent.

I'll re-iterate - the thread is not about what YOU want it to be about. The OP was clearly laid out, you either need to re-read it or admit to being intellectually dishonest and just using it as a soapbox.

[G13]

This is my last post in this thread. I'm tired of responding to YOUR hyperbole and emotional arguments, while you simultaneously accuse me falsely of these very things that you are doing.

Good. It will save me the time. I'm tired of correcting you with actual facts.

Stating that the rules should be enforced across the board equally is logical. Not emotional. You are arguing from the position that one guild and a set of players are above the law. That the rules don't apply to them. I reject that completely.

The rules are not being enforced equally across the board. This is just a fact based in evidence. You are not bringing anything to the table other than you're opinion of how you think the server should be, and how the community should respond when cheaters aren't appropriately punished.

If there are no guidelines firmly set on what is appropriate or inappropriate behavior than what we have is chaos. We're just making shit up as we go, reacting to situations. That's a recipe for disaster. My position is rules > everything. Above the feelings of you. Above the feelings of all guilds. The rules are law. This used to be the case, at least publicly, on P99. That is no longer the case.

Your so-called facts are irrelevant in the face of other facts that make yours essentially meaningless. You do not want to hear the important points that I am making. Let me state them again and try to make it as blunt as I can, cause I am done with this.

1) We are all guests here - you have no rights, other than the right to not play.

When you play on SOE's server you are also their guest. That doesn't mean SOE handles out punishment unequally and decides when and where the rules apply. Otherwise it's a corrupt box. Public or private. Rules are created not to be broken under any circumstances. No exceptions. It doesn't matter how many accounts were caught doing it. The rules either have meaning or they don't. Apparently cheating doesn't matter to you much.

2) You need to get over the idea that everything needs to be, can be or will be fair in life. Life is fundamentally unfair. Grow up. Get used to it. That doesn't mean you should simply accept every injustice, but you have to use good judgement and know how far you can push things. You are not using good judgement in this case or you don't have it. Let it go, you have already lost and your strident mantra that the devs are unfair is merely serving to stink up the boards at this point.

So you're admitting that development is not handing out punishment equally as they stated they would when they created the server. Everything you just posted here is an emotional argument. Not a logical one. Rules and punishments are put into place to keep order. To deter cheating, not encourage it. Why have laws if they can just be broken? Life isn't fair right? Your attempt at philosophy is comical at best. You're basically saying "Suck it up if you don't like it. The cheaters win."

3) I reject the idea that Rogean and crew have been fundamentally unfair. You present some information you call facts, but I have no way to verify them and no way to know what you left out. The "rebuttal" from Rogean in another thread includes that statement that not all information used to judge a situation will always be publicly known. Since I trust him, I have to believe that either you are holding back info or there is stuff you don't know about the situation you are so incensed about.

What we publicly know is this

1) Cheating is supposed to = ban

2) Cheaters were not banned

3) Guild A leadership cheated. Guild A suffered raid suspension

4) Guild B leadership cheated. Guild B suffered no punishment.

This is not speculation, which you are engaging in. These are the bare bones facts that cannot be disputed. All of your speculating withers in the face of these basic facts.

4) The people who make the server make the rules. They can decide if and when situations are such that an ammendment of normal punishments should be made. Though it is entirely within their right, they did not even change the rules - they just changed the punishment for the rules. Even our own judicial system gives judges leeway to do this. Them doing so does NOT make this a corrupt box. That is YOUR judgement, YOUR name calling and YOUR problem.

They made the rules previously and then changed them on the fly. Why make rules if you aren't going to enforce them? Sure, it's within their right, nobody is disputing that, but we sure as hell protest it when their reasoning behind the sudden change in rules is dubious at best. They had the exact opposite reaction to the batch of cheaters I'd thought they'd have. Frankly I was disappointed. I expected them to keep their word. They didn't here.

5) I expect a certain degree of autocracy here, because that is exactly what it is, whether you like it of not. Inherent in the idea of autocracy is a degree of unfairness. I like this game implementation so much that I am willing to put up with that. It is the price of admission. So, even if Rogean and company were being repeatedly, unequivically unfair, I would STILL play here unless it reached the point where I just couldn't bear it. In that case, I would leave. I would no be so naive and irritating as to think I could get my way by inciting popular unrest.

If you're the one benefiting from it then I don't blame you. TR/IB have it made here. They are above the rules. Their guild leader was a developer. The way you try and rationalize this is frankly unbelievable. This is beyond a degree of unfairness. This is a double standard. Your comparison to an autocracy is incorrect. It's more Totalitarian, since one raiding guild (faction) apparently has more influence than all the others and is above the law.

[G13]

Just because you see everything on this server as TR vs TMO does not make it so. This thread has had a lot of great discussion, and your personal attacks and paranoia do nothing but edge it closer to RnF. By your logic, I could argue that you are trying to derail the thread to get it into the dead-end known as RnF so any discussion that doesn't fit your narrative disappears.

Hyperbole. You're completely ignoring every other guild on this server that is not TMO/TR that has spoken out against this ruling.

Nice job with all of your generalizations about every member of TR, though. At least it makes your intentions transparent.

You're defending your guild whose leadership was caught using a 3rd party hack. Guild disband. Denounce the corruption and prove me wrong then.

I'll re-iterate - the thread is not about what YOU want it to be about. The OP was clearly laid out, you either need to re-read it or admit to being intellectually dishonest and just using it as a soapbox.

The OP is about how HBB wants it to be about. This isn't cold war east germany. Many people disagree. Whether you can accept that or not is no problem of mine, but yours.

[Enygmad]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/About/General/2010/4/21/1271865995734/Letting-a-baby-crying-can-001.jpg

Love,

Sworen

[Ennoia]

my money.

NAO!

877-CASH-NOW (http://www.jgwentworth.com)

[booter]

Hyperbole. You're completely ignoring every other guild on this server that is not TMO/TR that has spoken out against this ruling.

I'm not ignoring anyone.

You're defending your guild whose leadership was caught using a 3rd party hack. Guild disband. Denounce the corruption and prove me wrong then.

I'm not defending anyone aside from Rogean/Nilbog. I haven't even explicitly stated whether or not I think the bans should be permanent because I am undecided. Again, you're generalizing and seeing things you want to see. You are under the assumption that everyone in TR wants to welcome Perun back, which is certainly not that case.

The OP is about how HBB wants it to be about.

Thank you. Maybe you'll re-read what he said and stay on track instead of turning this thread into a crusade. (Hint: he says to make a new post for that, and use the proper channels)

[Eternal-Elf]

(Hint: he says to make a new post for that, and use the proper channels)

bahahahaha. MODERATOR HASBIN has SPOKEN!

[booter]

bahahahaha. MODERATOR HASBIN has SPOKEN!

Yeah, it's unthinkable to stay on topic in one of the rare, useful threads.

[citizen1080]

bahahahaha. MODERATOR HASBIN has SPOKEN!

Nilbog save us from Mods w/ an agenda

[G13]

I'm not ignoring anyone.

Really? Then why did you try to make this into TR vs IB? The only thing I care about are the rules. Either they mean something or they don't. You are a part of this community just as I am. Do the rules matter to you? If you're competing against a rival guild and they are hacking and taking mobs from you, how would that make you feel? Are you going to just "suck it up and keep quiet"?

I'm not defending anyone aside from Rogean/Nilbog. I haven't even explicitly stated whether or not I think the bans should be permanent because I am undecided. Again, you're generalizing and seeing things you want to see. You are under the assumption that everyone in TR wants to welcome Perun back, which is certainly not that case.

Why is the door even open for him to come back? I would like nothing more than Rogean to make an announcement which states the following:

"After further review, we will be permanently banning all accounts that were caught using 3rd party hacks. In the special circumstance where an officer/raid leader of a raiding guild was caught using this program during competitive raids, we will also be raid suspending the offending guild for a period of 2 weeks."

People are acting like this would be outrageous. That's how far in the gutter this server has been dragged through by this mess. It was a critical mistake not to perma ban these accounts.

Thank you. Maybe you'll re-read what he said and stay on track instead of turning this thread into a crusade. (Hint: he says to make a new post for that, and use the proper channels)

If you mean by a crusade for development to be consistent and enforce the rules they put in place, than you're welcome. We wouldn't even be having this disagreement if Perun wasn't caught hacking. Actions have consequences. Instead of attacking everyone else, why aren't you blaming him? Instead your guild is accepting him back. Will plvl him with AOE groups, and fully fund his account with guild bank stash.

Are you telling me you're ok with that?

[Enygmad]

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Society/Pix/pictures/2010/4/21/1271861774568/Crying-Baby-001.jpg

Koota (known hacker/showeq user, caught using hacks to benefit his guild in a raid environment) was unbanned, and welcomed back into Durison's guild. Just sayin'.

Love,

Sworen

[G13]

Koota (known hacker/showeq user, caught using hacks to benefit his guild in a raid environment) was unbanned, and welcomed back into Durison's guild. Just sayin'.

Love,

Sworen

Why should I care? His account should have been permanently banned and if I was in that guild at the time I would have disbanded immediately. I was never in Fusion or Ascension. Nether was Divinity, Mischief, Reclamation, Taken, or the rest of the community.

Rules > your assumption that guilds are above the rules because your friends are in them. Don't project that fault onto me. You own it. I don't really understand what you are trying to justify exactly? That people shouldn't judge TR for allowing hackers back into their guild? Really?

Nice try though

[Enygmad]

http://fancyayancey.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/crybaby-12.jpg

This picture > your assumption that anyone, least of all the owners of this project, gives two shits about your opinion.

How many times have you been suspended on P99 Bronson? You're hardly a shining example of someone who upholds the rules.

Sworen

[G13]

This picture > your assumption that anyone, least of all the owners of this project, gives two shits about your opinion.

How many times have you been suspended on P99 Bronson? You're hardly a shining example of someone who upholds the rules.

Sworen

If you have evidence that I've been banned/suspended for cheating/using 3rd party programs, by all means post the evidence, otherwise your accusations are baseless.

I'll say it one last time. I don't care about the top tier raiding guilds. I care about 3rd party hacks being used on the server and the proper punishment being levied against the accounts that use them.

If you don't care about that, if you believe that a double standard is perfectly fine because the devs don't give a shit about our opinions, then that's on you. You own it. I believe that the devs do care about our opinions, which is why I'm hoping they will take them under consideration and make these bans permanent, as well as raid suspending any guild whose leadership as caught using SEQ during a competitive raid.

You're the one who brought up Koota. Not me. You're the one that was guilded with him in Fusion and Ascension.

[Envious]

Deleting legit posts isnt going to help~

So stop deleting my fucking posts.

Restating, I agree with Searyx. From like page 1 or 2.

[booter]

Really? Then why did you try to make this into TR vs IB?

Almost all of your posts have had something about TR not being suspended like TMO was. I have been actively trying to keep this thread AWAY from TR/TMO and on track.

Why is the door even open for him to come back?

Not my call?

It was a critical mistake not to perma ban these accounts.

Your opinion. Rogean/Nilbog disagree.

Actions have consequences. Instead of attacking everyone else, why aren't you blaming him? Instead your guild is accepting him back. Will plvl him with AOE groups, and fully fund his account with guild bank stash.

I'm not attacking anyone here, just pointing out generalizations and assumptions, and trying to keep the thread on track. This thread isn't to discuss one specific guild/person, it is to discuss the way in which you go about bringing that information to the staff. Also lol at all that extra fluff you throw in at the end about funding him with "guild bank stash". Your credibility erodes with every post like that.

[G13]

Almost all of your posts have had something about TR not being suspended like TMO was. I have been actively trying to keep this thread AWAY from TR/TMO and on track.

You're mistaken. TR wasn't suspended the way DA was. This is an important distinction. TMO officers were not caught cheating like your raid leader was, therefore I have no opinion on TMO.


Not my call?

Why is the door open for him to come back?

Your opinion. Rogean/Nilbog disagree.

Time will tell

I'm not attacking anyone here, just pointing out generalizations and assumptions, and trying to keep the thread on track. This thread isn't to discuss one specific guild/person, it is to discuss the way in which you go about bringing that information to the staff. Also lol at all that extra fluff you throw in at the end about funding him with "guild bank stash". Your credibility erodes with every post like that.

I'm not assuming anything, nor am I attacking anyone. I'm rightly pointing out that your raid leader was suspended for using a 3rd party hack, and judging from past precedent, your guild should be raid suspended for a minimum of 2 weeks. The fact of the matter is, Perun will be accepted back, plvled back to 60 as quickly as possible, and his account will suffer no long term consequences for his actions. So who's really suffering a credibility gap?

[Stibe]

You're mistaken. TR wasn't suspended the way DA was. This is an important distinction. TMO officers were not caught cheating like your raid leader was, therefore I have no opinion on TMO.




Why is the door open for him to come back?



Time will tell



I'm not assuming anything, nor am I attacking anyone. I'm rightly pointing out that your raid leader was suspended for using a 3rd party hack, and judging from past precedent, your guild should be raid suspended for a minimum of 2 weeks. The fact of the matter is, Perun will be accepted back, plvled back to 60 as quickly as possible, and his account will suffer no long term consequences for his actions. So who's really suffering a credibility gap?

Perhaps instead of pushing you personal opinion on the people who built, run, and maintain the server, your response should be "Well, I dont like this, im going to leave."

[Enygmad]

http://nerdbastards.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/crying-baby-257x300.jpg

/thread

Sworen

[Vohl]

Saying you don't like something once in a polite way is just fine.

Lobbying for it seems a bit questionable.

Claiming that the server is a flaming wreck because you don't like something is taking a big step over the line. At this point, you'd serve your cause better by opening your own server.

[Flavor]

Perhaps instead of pushing you personal opinion on the people who built, run, and maintain the server, your response should be "Well, I dont like this, im going to leave."

Go read the book Exit, Voice, and Loyalty by Albert Hirschman. It's short but it'll give you some perspective as to why anyone whose touched the raid scene outside of TR is so hell bent on blowing shit up. You've just touched on the "Exit" portion of it.

Also I would tell you to just wikipedia it, except the article's analysis sucks balls. Just go read it, it's only 100 pages.

[G13]

Perhaps instead of pushing you personal opinion on the people who built, run, and maintain the server, your response should be "Well, I dont like this, im going to leave."

Thank you for your opinion

I respectfully disagree

[mimixownzall]

/trolled

Sworen

Fixed.

[Flavor]

Everyone feels that just because you created a character here and spent hours sitting here leveling that you're entitled to have a say in what goes on?

You're forgetting half of the equation that, ironically, has become pretty apparent in the last few years to the rest of the business world. Do you use Yelp? Same shit. Consumers effectively culling out inferior products through the power of their patronage. The result is better restaurants succeeding. In OUR case, however, there are no alternatives; I can't just go eat somewhere else.

A service is a service is a service regardless of whether you pay for it or not. Right now the p99 is being viewed as inferior to other acceptable gaming experiences provided in a million different places around the net. If people don't like what you're doing, they're going to opt for something else and without those players on your box, there is no P99. However, since there's no alternative, we get threads like this from people who want to stay and no opinion from people who have left that aren't Azeth... or me...

So, Hasbinbad arguing that some or all of these dissension posts are intentionally trying to undermine p99 just doesn't fly with me when the option to just leave is open and might I say popular. Fix the big issues and the symptoms that present themselves (this thread, truthing, hasbinbad qq's, torches and pitchforks, the Brawny approach) will go away and the blissful peace of Tralina boob pic threads will once again return unto dewy meadows of the RnF forum.

The consequence of doing nothing to remedy the perception that this server is corrupt and thus inferior, not that it's pertinent: P99 will dry up and blow away the second an alternative comes along as a result of the input of players into the system being less than those leaving. I'll repeat what I said earlier, the novelty of "The Classic EQ Experience" is part of what has allowed the server to continue existing despite turnover. I evidence this with the fact that we are not alone in our pursuit of Classic EQ and there exists a mostly separate community, EQC.

[JayDee]

W
I
P
E

[JayDee]

server is tainted otherwise friends

[epicentre]

Once players understand this world has a creator that made it and rules it, they stop whining or quit.

Open your eyes, this ain't a democracy and I see no reason why it should be a democracy, unless its creator decides so.

See you in game.

[wrxBRAH]

Wouldnt it have been a lot easier just to ban everyone that cheated because its in the rules and force anyone that wants to play from here on out to have the .dll file?

I understand you think you'll lose some of the population if you did that but really what message are you sending the community? Besides these addicts cant quit cold turkey.

[Aenor]

The cheaters who will be joining us again soon won't be cheating anymore. They'll be caught and permanently removed if they do it again, since we know the staff can detect it.

Actually, MQ developers are without a doubt working on something undetectable by Rogean's code. Fewer will cheat knowing the risk but this is not the end of cheating.

[mitic]

Actually, MQ developers are without a doubt working on something undetectable by Rogean's code. Fewer will cheat knowing the risk but this is not the end of cheating.

noone will ever risk to use mq again except those newcomers not knowing about the latest events

[psyphon]

noone will ever risk to use mq again except those newcomers not knowing about the latest events

That seems laughable. What prevents them from creating a new account, hiding behind a proxy, and testing the latest version of a cheating program? Banned? Just wait till the next cheating program release, carry on playing on "clean" account on own IP.

If these players have shown the moral deficit required to cheat, they'll continue to do so. I somewhat understand the GM's decision for a one time clemency. But it only makes sense if they can be sure they'll catch them the next time round.

I think a punishment strong enough to make at least some of the cheaters leave the server altogether would have been more worthwhile. As it is, the cheaters will just be more careful.

I'm curious about those 46+ accounts that have been banned since the first 365. My guess would be that most of them are brand new accounts from the same old cheaters, already testing the waters.

[Threepoint]

noone will ever risk to use mq again except those newcomers not knowing about the latest events

Yeah cause that 2 week suspension is such a brutal punishment

[jimthayner]

If these players have shown the moral deficit required to cheat, they'll continue to do so.

Stop right there. There is nothing immoral about cheating, it is unethical. An immoral act is genocide against six million Jews, 500,000 Kurds, or a theistic oppressive regime's acts (like the Taliban).

An unethical act is cheating on your spelling test.

Calling cheating immoral in a fucking emulated Everquest server is saying Bush or Obama = Hitler.

Cheating is wrong on this server, and something to be avoided by players and punished by GMs. But to say that cheating on MMOs is immoral shows a remarkable lack of comprehension...of the English language and...well...what words mean.

Let's tone down the rhetoric/mudslinging and call cheating in P1999 what it is: an act that breaks the rules, and is by no means comparable to stealing ketchup packets from a restaurant.

[psyphon]

There is nothing immoral about cheating, it is unethical.

Semantics. The terms are largely interchangeable. By strict definitions I'd still argue cheating is both unethical and immoral. Morality is an understanding of the difference between right, and wrong. (And not just when thousands of lives are at stake.)

Cheating is wrong

Truth.

Cheating is wrong on this server

And maybe this is where we disagree. I'd say cheating is always wrong, regardless of location, circumstance, or the actions of others.

[mitic]

Yeah cause that 2 week suspension is such a brutal punishment

after all of this whining the last 2 weeks on the boards u can rest assured that a leniency wont be repeated, even if they need to ban 500 cheaters at once the next time caught.

[falkun]

after all of this whining the last 2 weeks on the boards u can rest assured that a leniency wont be repeated, even if they need to ban 500 cheaters at once the next time caught.

Good.

[Goobles]

I think this thread is good for upping post counts.

[Vohl]

W
I
P
E

Perfection is the enemy of awesome.

[Massive Marc]

LOL, this kid, all he does is slang propaganda around. He so dumb, he makes a thread that questions why GM's haven't closed threads that question their decisions.

[murrayh81]

Actually, MQ developers are without a doubt working on something undetectable by Rogean's code. Fewer will cheat knowing the risk but this is not the end of cheating.

QFT. This appears to be a classic 80/20 circumstance. For a while, whatever was being done to cheat was undetectable. The hard-core cheaters (~20%), who likely live their lives that way, are working or asking for new cheating tools, or probing to find work-arounds.

The ~80% who only did it because everyone they knew was doing it without getting caught or punished were what the GMs were probably trying to save.

So, by not treating everyone as the 20%'er, the staff now has to devote extra resources and effort to keeping ahead of the hard-core cheaters. I applaud their decision to give a break to some who no doubt were drawn in by peer pressure or loyalty to their friends. The punishment dealt is probably sufficient to keep them rolling straight.

Unfortunately, the threat is not gone, and hopefully the GMs/Devs will the arms race in future.

As one new to Project 1999, I have to say that this has not deterred me from coming on board, because this server is what I have been looking for since I quit Live. I see a lot of passionate people here on these boards and making posts in this thread, and I have met a lot of pleasant folks online, so the darkness of this event has not obscured the game.

[Enygma]

so 1 (one) guy was caught back the day and got banned and his guild received a vaction from raiding, shit happens pal.

now, 365 (threehundredsixtyfive) ppl have been caught and all you want is a "revenge" for the past neglecting all other cheaters who have been caught too.

ok, iam all for that, but then again lets be 100% fair, do we?

what happens to the rest of those other threehundredfifty+ cheaters ? are we going to set every guild on raidvacation? i bet all my rl money that every single major guild had hackers in them (tmo included). i dont give a fuck if someone was an officer, leader, regularmember, a honorary member or the mascot of the guild cause a cheater is a cheater is a cheater is a cheater.

i would completely concur with you, if only (read: ONLY) TR would have been caught but in this exceptional circumstance of 365 busted cheaters u just cant blame 1-2ppl of 1 guild alone.

bottom line, it just can get better from now on since p99staff apparently found something viable to hunt them cheaters down. gj again rogean, secrets & nil.

Mitic the fact of the matter is buddy, there were probably 365+ cheaters when koota was caught... just not at the same time.Why should the punishment be different?

The reasoning the guild was raid suspended in the first instance was because an OFFICER was caught and should be held to a higher regard as he represents the guild and is a LEADER of the guild. The second instance was a member and the guild was told they were "harboring cheaters" by nilbog himself. (Talk about 1 sided opinion)

I agree that the 365+ accounts should be perma banned as well as the IP's of those users. But I'm a conservative minded kind of guy.

<3

Sworen

[Enygma]

This picture > your assumption that anyone, least of all the owners of this project, gives two shits about your opinion.

How many times have you been suspended on P99 Bronson? You're hardly a shining example of someone who upholds the rules.

Sworen

This guy is just a noob troll... He hates himself irl. /ignore

Sworen

[casdegere]

I think alot of people with 500+ posts here tend to be self-serving by default...

I made a poll about the subject at hand. Bantering about the decision beyond just releasing frustration if you have it is unproductive.

Here is the bottom-line x7:
1)People came here for classic EQ as it was advertised. If the Devs/Gms say they are going to stop cheating, I believe them. If I didn't I would not play anymore. If you do not believe them, then why play the game that they control?

2)Never in the history of decisions is everyone happy after one is made.

3)Cheaters are now going to be targets by everyone, not just Devs/Gms. If I see something strange I will report it. Use 3rd party programs at your own risk. If they do not benefit you, getting booted for them is going to suck isn't it?

4)Guilds who have officers that cheat might want to reconsider that policy.

5)If you cheated to get an item or Plat, you are not playing the game.

6)If you do not cheat to get an item or plat, you are playing the game.

7) If playing this game brings you frustration, anger and stress there is most likely something better to do with your time. (I guarantee the longer you think about that the more sense it will make.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

This all being said, I do not feel throwing up topics like this in Server chat is appropriate. Many people do it to bait others, spread rumor, especially over hot topics and everyone knows better. Hasinbad, opening up a discussion in Sever Chat about quashing discussions so new members aren't alienated falls into this category. The moment you wrote the title of the thread, you became a hypocrite.

[Enygma]

4)Guilds who have officers that cheat might want to reconsider that policy.


Why? Apparently, guilds aren't held accountable for their leaders actions anymore.

Sworen

[citizen1080]

noone will ever risk to use mq again except those newcomers not knowing about the latest events

As already stated this is false. I would be very surprised if there is not already a work around for their hack detection.

[casdegere]

What I think it kind of funny is that people "think" they know this or that. Well, I guess we will just see.

[Hasbinbad]

I think this thread is good for upping post counts.
GOO BOLESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

[Shannacore]

GOO BOLESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Come on Hasbinbad, let's keep this thread on topic.

[Appollo]

2) Never in the history of decisions is everyone happy after one is made.


Well said.

[booter]

Something I've been thinking about...

Threads that start in Server Chat should stay in Server Chat (or any other forum where they start). If a legitimate complaint is brought up to the staff, it is all too easy to get the thread thrown into RnF. Once it is there, useful discussion stops and oftentimes the issue is lost.

It wouldn't be that hard to do. Instead of seeing a flame in a post and going "well I'm just going to throw this into RnF now," just warn/suspend/ban the poster who clearly can't follow forum rules so that the adults can continue discussing the topic, while the forum trolls slowly get weeded out.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Could you have people click something to where they agree to certain things to be allowed to play? Such as the files used recently?

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Mitic people who cheat will always cheat. This won't deter them you give them too much credit or perhaps not enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psyphon View Post
If these players have shown the moral deficit required to cheat, they'll continue to do so.
Stop right there. There is nothing immoral about cheating, it is unethical. An immoral act is genocide against six million Jews, 500,000 Kurds, or a theistic oppressive regime's acts (like the Taliban).

An unethical act is cheating on your spelling test.

Calling cheating immoral in a fucking emulated Everquest server is saying Bush or Obama = Hitler.

Cheating is wrong on this server, and something to be avoided by players and punished by GMs. But to say that cheating on MMOs is immoral shows a remarkable lack of comprehension...of the English language and...well...what words mean.

Let's tone down the rhetoric/mudslinging and call cheating in P1999 what it is: an act that breaks the rules, and is by no means comparable to stealing ketchup packets from a restaurant.

You're the one with the lack of comprehension. Look up the word immoral and then come back.

1. transgressing accepted moral rules; corrupt
2. sexually dissolute; profligate or promiscuous
3. unscrupulous or unethical immoral trading
4. tending to corrupt or resulting from corruption

mo·ral·i·ty
   [muh-ral-i-tee, maw-] Show IPA
noun, plural -ties for 4–6.
1.conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2.moral quality or character.
3.virtue in sexual matters; chastity.
4.a doctrine or system of morals.
5.moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance.

I'm sure I could find various sites with definitions more suited to my point but you could get to the words honesty, integrity, to honor and then where are you?

There are two types of people in this world those that think cheating is nothing unethical or immoral because they only relate those words to genocide. That a white lie is not a lie. And those people are what I like to call wrong.

[Supreme]

Mitic people who cheat will always cheat. This won't deter them you give them too much credit or perhaps not enough.


I would not say that is always true.


The only way to deal with people that get caught using SEQ/MQ is to banish them to red99(:p) or a seq/mq server. I would go so far as to say why not open a p99 server that allows everything the current p1999 does not.

Twoboxing,MQ,SEQ,Training,KSing etc etc...

[Hasbinbad]

rofl you know supreme i think you might have hit on something there.. people who fuck up on p99 get a 1 way permanent character transfer to red99 :D

tralina.. i tried to make a civil conversation and keep it on topic, but the trolls must troll i guess.. whatever.