TenTonHammer: Everquest Hacking

[Rogean]

Ten Ton Hammer has released a 3 part article about the hacking on the eqlive servers and has featured Haynar and myself due to our efforts to combat them here on Project 1999.

Hacking Everquest Part One - The Problem (http://www.tentonhammer.com/features/everquest/hacking-eq-part-one)

Hacking Everquest Part Two - How to Stop a Hacker (http://www.tentonhammer.com/features/everquest/hacking-eq-part-two)

Hacking Everquest Part Three - SOE's Response (http://www.tentonhammer.com/features/everquest/hacking-eq-part-three)

[Vidrata]

Meh.

[xshayla701]

dont hold back bro

[Crenshinabon]

Sad to see EQ progression ruined by this shit.
Glad you can help fight it.

I would love to have more faith in Sony. But after waiting for a pvp progression server to open up for 4 or so years now I have lost most faith in them.

[Tarathiel]

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JUJcoSkAm98?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JUJcoSkAm98?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

[Fists]

but where is vp!?

[Ames]

AFK ordering 300 pizzas to Sean's house now!

[Shiftin]

but where is vp!?

[Daldaen]

Thom evading answering questions as always. Baller.

[Heebee]

but where is vp!?

[Titanuk]

Sean "Rogean" Norton

[Aenor]

I actually re-sub'd two accounts for Fippy and immediately decided not to play once I heard mage pets were tanking raid mobs. I play war as my main, and if my role is taken away by a mage pet, I have no desire to play.

I'm so glad I didn't waste time on these servers. I was with the guild on Sleeper that unlocked Velious and took down the first Tormax and Yelinak. I had a blast, but I was aware of warp hacking on that server as well. Just nothing on the scale of having my entire raid trained by a warp hacker.

When I read the quote from the SOE producer, "oh it's worth a conversation with my team," it just goes to show they really don't care enough about the issue. What happened with the account suspensions on P99 is exactly what I hoped would happen. When I heard about anti-hack measures, I wanted to know if they would actually work.

Obviously now that P99 has taken action against MQ, the MQ developers, some of whom will be playing on P99 Red, will be working to get around P99's detection methods. It will always be a constant battle, just as with EQ live where every patch modifies the client to disable the current MQ build, just for a new build to be released hours later.

The difference is will. The live producer is told, "your game is completely broken and unrewarding for legit players," and his response is, "oh really, I guess we'll have a conversation about that." Meanwhile the P99 team has shown they actually care. Great job Rogean, Nilbog et al. I'm going to enjoy playing on Red 99, knowing the developers of the game I choose to invest my time in actually care about rewarding legit play.

[Fists]

but where is vp!?

[Heebee]

but where is vp!?

[Nebi]

but where is vp!?

[Corpsed]

It's like kids asking "are we there yet.". Shut up already.

[Maze513]

well..... are we? Kets keeps making faces at me and I have to pee

[Autotune]

I hope VP is never released.

[xshayla701]

Sean "Rogean" Norton

ololol

[Extunarian]

When you google Haynar's real name the first thing that comes up is a profile on SailBoatOwners.com.

[Smyd]

I hope VP is never released.

same.
People will never just be grateful... or satisfied... or patient.... or grateful.

[Atmas]

I hope VP is never released.

I would feel the same way if it wasn't for the fact that VP not being open just means getting trained on the regular when you are in a zone and a high value mob spawns. Not that VP opening would stop this, but at least there is some hope.

Anyway, kudos to Rogean and the P99 team on the recognition for anti-hacking efforts.

[Harrison]

I hope VP is never released.

[Shiftin]

same.
People will never just be grateful... or satisfied... or patient.... or grateful.

Every day VP isn't open while something lke the hole is, the server deviates further from its explicitly stated purpose. It's also another day of people who support the server with ad clicks, some donations and were the most rabid bug testers in preparation of kunark becoming jaded, bored and logging into another game instead. VP allows high end guilds something to do before epics and affords more chances for more casual raiding guilds to raid things that start to free up.

The notion that people who came here for a classic experience, and have been huge supporters of the server (in many ways), asking for a zone to be released that's 6 months late (despite claims that it is done) haven't been patient is ludicrous.

Is there a reason, other than perverse pleasure or trolling, that VP not being open benefits you?

[Vidrata]

VP not being open is punishment for the hacking you fags were/are doing. Your bs punishes everyone.

[Goraxx]

TR caught ackin.

[Shiftin]

That is a straw man and factually incorrect. The number of people in TR and TMO that were banned as a % of the total number of bans is far lower than the percentage of the active server population those guilds make up on a day to day basis.

[Zereh]

That is a straw man and factually incorrect. The number of people in TR and TMO that were banned as a % of the total number of bans is far lower than the percentage of the active server population those guilds make up on a day to day basis.

TR had raid / guild leaders banned, TMO did not; comparing the two is disingenuous at best. This goes way beyond a straight numbers game.

The people caught cheating who happened to be tagged TMO are no longer guilded with us. If you want to impress, throw some facts at us about how your guild chose to deal with your cheaters.

[Silentone]

The people caught cheating who happened to be tagged TMO are no longer guilded with us. If you want to impress, throw some facts at us about how your guild chose to deal with your cheaters.


By powerleveling them to max and tagging them of course.

[Shiftin]

TR had raid / guild leaders banned, TMO did not; comparing the two is disingenuous at best. This goes way beyond a straight numbers game.


Please quit trying to drag an actual issue into RNF. I am not comparing our guilds. Either individually or together, our guilds did not make up as great a % of the cheaters are we make up a portion of the active playerbase, so to punish us specifically for that (ignoring the other guilds that suffer), wouldn't make sense.

That also isn't the latest stated reason we have for VP not being open.

If you would like a refresher of the 4 stated reasons we've been given since April why VP isn't open, i am happy to provide them.

[Softcore PK]

It's interesting to read this stuff. Did not know Rogean and team were limited in some ways by law. And now I know why I sometimes get "Warp detected" messages when I gate in the same zone as my bind, or just at random times.

Thank you so much, Rogean and friends. As a former live pvp player, hacking was one of the serious problems that contributed greatly to me giving up on EQ. Obviously it won't be eliminated entirely, but thanks to your efforts I'm sure many would-be hackers opt to play legitimately. Your work really is appreciated :)

[baub]

VP not being open is punishment for the hacking you fags were/are doing. Your bs punishes everyone.

keep sippin that kool-aid bro ~

[Fists]

That is a straw man and factually incorrect. The number of people in TR and TMO that were banned as a % of the total number of bans is far lower than the percentage of the active server population those guilds make up on a day to day basis.

Quite true. As an ex member of TMO we had maybe 2-3 people booted from hacking. TR had what 9 accounts. 360 - 12 = 348. MATH BROS.

@Zereh "TR had raid / guild leaders banned, TMO did not; comparing the two is disingenuous at best. This goes way beyond a straight numbers game."

What is the relevance to the topic at hand of opening VP. So what if TMO had a clean slate this time around.. Are you sitting here spewing that either A. VP should only be open to the glorious TMO? or that B. Your content with VP not coming out STILL?

[DoucLangur]

Back on-topic: I find the Ten Ton Hammer articles, especially the introductory first article about the Chardok raid, highly naive at best. Not to expect cheaters on an EQ server, and to try to "communicate" with a group that is clearly warping, is just stupid and a waste of time.

Failing that, I gotta say the major flaw allowing stuff like MQ to work in this game is the distribution of tasks between client and server that Verant/SOE chose to implement. For instance:

"Warping has always been a problem in EverQuest. There are so many ways that a client can legitimately get across a zone. The server cannot assume all cases of fast travel are automatically hacks. What if the client lagged out where the player lost internet connection for a few seconds? It would look like a warp or a speed hack to the server."

If the client only submitted an action to the server (i.e. start running in direction xy, cast gate) and the server told the client with each network packet "your character is positioned at XY, facing in direction D and moving at speed S", then it would not be possible to warp. Because the client could display the character anywhere in the zone, nevertheless, the client could not *tell* the server where the character is, because the server would do it's own math on that.

However, that would become very inconvenient with high latency (ping) between client and server. But the least that the server could do is track the average client speed by looking at the current maximum movement rate of the character (speed affecting buffs, encumbrance) and comparing that to the actual difference between two positions over time. There should be short-time plausibility checks (for short distance warping and checking there is an unobstructed path in between) and long-time average speed checks (to prevent speedhacks warping in small steps within the tolerance of the short-time checks).

Then - regardless what the client does, speedhacks and warping could not be effected anymore. I never understood why that wasn't implemented by SOE except due to the "don't care" attitude that we have learned to love so much.

Kind Regards,

Slozem

[booter]

but where is vp!?

[Kevlar]

That is a straw man and factually incorrect. The number of people in TR and TMO that were banned as a % of the total number of bans is far lower than the percentage of the active server population those guilds make up on a day to day basis.

All that means is you guys had a bunch of unguilded alts.

[Kevlar]

Then - regardless what the client does, speedhacks and warping could not be effected anymore. I never understood why that wasn't implemented by SOE except due to the "don't care" attitude that we have learned to love so much.

Kind Regards,

Slozem
Warping takes advantage of the same commands that make zoning, gating, and stuff like shadowstep and call of the hero possible. Speed hacks take advantage of bard speed or other speed buff powers. No way you could take the ability out of the client and still play the game.

[Thulack]

Every day VP isn't open while something lke the hole is, the server deviates further from its explicitly stated purpose. It's also another day of people who support the server with ad clicks, some donations and were the most rabid bug testers in preparation of kunark becoming jaded, bored and logging into another game instead. VP allows high end guilds something to do before epics and affords more chances for more casual raiding guilds to raid things that start to free up.

The notion that people who came here for a classic experience, and have been huge supporters of the server (in many ways), asking for a zone to be released that's 6 months late (despite claims that it is done) haven't been patient is ludicrous.

Is there a reason, other than perverse pleasure or trolling, that VP not being open benefits you?

Because this isnt a true classic server. This is a server where the Dev's deem what is right/wrong and when things should be released.

[Seaweedpimp]

TR had raid / guild leaders banned, TMO did not; comparing the two is disingenuous at best. This goes way beyond a straight numbers game.

The people caught cheating who happened to be tagged TMO are no longer guilded with us. If you want to impress, throw some facts at us about how your guild chose to deal with your cheaters.

^^^^^^^^^^^



Damn zereh is good.



TR failure

[Dr4z3r]

If you would like a refresher of the 4 stated reasons we've been given since April why VP isn't open, i am happy to provide them.

I never knew there were 4! What were/are they?

[Tarathiel]

arguing on a gm created thread? ya'll are dumber than i thought

[DoucLangur]

Warping takes advantage of the same commands that make zoning, gating, and stuff like shadowstep and call of the hero possible. Speed hacks take advantage of bard speed or other speed buff powers. No way you could take the ability out of the client and still play the game.

Maybe I am overlooking something here, but I doubt it in this particular situation. If - for speed reasons - a shadowstep needs to be performed by the client - what hurt is done if - at the same time, the client needs to submit the info "player casted shadowstep at time t" to the server, and the server makes sure that a) the shadowstep is among the abilities of the player, and b) the effects are the same (cast time was taken into account, mana is lowered, etc)? Gating would work the same. The best cheat that could be achieved by shadowstep, if for playability reasons it is not possible to let the server determine the random destination location, would be to shadowstep in a direction of choice, repeatedly.

I already explained how bard speed could not be abused: The server would perform it's plausibility checks against the serverknown current max movement speed of the toon. I do not see how zoning mechanisms could be exploited to gain speed with such settings. Maybe you can explain that. Any Call of the Hero would go through the server anyways, to tell client A that its player is CotHed by client B. No way to exploit that with proper server coding from what I see.

So what am I overlooking?

[Connador]

So what am I overlooking?

They're not allowed to make some changes the client for legal reasons.

[Gwence]

ever since they had compiles for MQ for windows sony really hasn't policed that shit too much as long as you weren't ghost killing frontier raid mobs, why would they?

the cheaters pay subscription fees same as the non cheaters, and it's an addictive game so as much as people talk about quitting because of cheaters it rarely happens. Sony might be terrible at making video games but they're not stupid when it comes to understanding their product and the market.

sony also incorporated quite a few different command lines that originated with macroquest such as /melody, cross zone inviting, tradeskill ui etc etc..

Im not defending cheaters just pointing out it's not always clear cut when a company makes their decisions.

[DoucLangur]

They're not allowed to make some changes the client for legal reasons.

I was explaining my point that cheating is only possible due to poor task sharing between the client and the server in the original EQ. I was not talking about means to apply anti-cheating patches here. Although some of the stuff could be implemented serverwise without modifications to the client.

[Shiftin]

.

[Aenor]

I never understood why that wasn't implemented by SOE except due to the "don't care" attitude that we have learned to love so much.

It's absurd for SOE to cry poverty, that the resources to address hacking are not available. Red99 does it by way of volunteer efforts. At any point, SOE could have formed a committee of active players and given them access to logs to prove who was cheating... not give them power to take any action but allow them to do the grunt work of CONFIRMING what suspicious character actions were the result of hacking. This might have happened if SOE cared about anything but getting their next transaction (i.e. expansion). But this shows why SOE are really bad business people. Because they're chasing chump change whereas making their game legit would attract far more paying customers, and thus more long term revenue than their next expansion bought by a handful of players who still care.

[Autotune]

.

lol

[SyanideGas]

P99 team does a lot better than sony with this shit in my opinion lol.

[Kevlar]

It's absurd for SOE to cry poverty, that the resources to address hacking are not available. Red99 does it by way of volunteer efforts. At any point, SOE could have formed a committee of active players and given them access to logs to prove who was cheating... not give them power to take any action but allow them to do the grunt work of CONFIRMING what suspicious character actions were the result of hacking. This might have happened if SOE cared about anything but getting their next transaction (i.e. expansion). But this shows why SOE are really bad business people. Because they're chasing chump change whereas making their game legit would attract far more paying customers, and thus more long term revenue than their next expansion bought by a handful of players who still care.

The problem is on live the only people left are the cheaters. WOW polices their shit, if you want to cheat play EQ.

Don't bitch too much about live allowing cheaters, P99 did the same thing when a large portion of their player base was caught hacking. Looked the other way.

[Mcbard]

I've never cheated on P99 but being bored as hell and having no VP to raid makes me want to. :(

[SyanideGas]

I've never cheated on P99 but being bored as hell and having no VP to raid makes me want to. :(

Dont do it man!

[doacleric]

I find it hilarious how a bunch of people who get paid absolutely nothing and take hundreds of hours out of their lives to provide a free EQ classic server care more about cheating than the company who receives $15 a month per subscriber.

I can probably believe Sony when they say that they've never once discussed NOT stopping cheaters due to not wanting to ban paying subscribers. But instead saying how "we don't have the time to fix cheating because we need to push this new expansion out the door" is basically just as bad. $$$ over quality is what brought EQ into the shitter.

[Autotune]

I've never cheated on P99 but being bored as hell and having no VP to raid makes me want to. :(

how does being bored make you want to cheat lol?

quit maybe, but cheat?

[Vidrata]

how does being bored make you want to cheat lol?

quit maybe, but cheat?

Its fun to cause grief to others over the internetz.

[Fromage]

I've never cheated on P99 but being bored as hell and having no VP to raid makes me want to. :(

Is it a guild rule to try and derail every thread into " WHERE VP WHERE!?!" passive-aggressive bitching or something?

[Atmas]

I find it hilarious how a bunch of people who get paid absolutely nothing and take hundreds of hours out of their lives to provide a free EQ classic server care more about cheating than the company who receives $15 a month per subscriber.

I can probably believe Sony when they say that they've never once discussed NOT stopping cheaters due to not wanting to ban paying subscribers. But instead saying how "we don't have the time to fix cheating because we need to push this new expansion out the door" is basically just as bad. $$$ over quality is what brought EQ into the shitter.

Yeah it was kind of disturbing how the interview for cheating was used by Sony as a plug for their next expansion.

[karsten]

ten ton hammer interviewed me n xzerion n otto

i was of course drunk

http://www.tentonhammer.com/features/everquest/nostalgia

"There hasn’t been a game like [EverQuest] in difficulty and content matter," said Xzerion, guild leader of Inglourious Basterds. "You have to be good at playing your class. In World of Warcraft, you were playing with a bunch of nine year old kids and all they had to do was to show up, get some levels, and be somewhat useful on a raid. Here, it is clearly evident if somebody is playing with you and is not good and could deter whatever group or raid you’re trying to take part in."

"To be able to progress and meet your full potential as any kind of class, you have to understand the game mechanics," added Otto, former guild leader of Inglourious Basterds. "You need to understand the layout of the zones; you need to understand how your class is beneficial in group situations. Every other MMOG that I’ve played is just so easy that the journey to the final level in the game can be accomplished within a few days, at most. That’s what I liked about EverQuest--it took time and effort... I think that without the difficulty of the game, you miss out on the fulfillment factor."

One of the guild's officers, Karsten, agreed, and offered a more analytical perspective. "I would answer in a much more metaphysical and psychological way," he began. "That question opens up a large variety of ways in which you could answer it. The succinct way of answering it is that I like playing EverQuest in the same way that I’m attracted to women who are hard to get. It’s a sad commentary on the psychology of what mankind is attracted to. I really do think that one of the reasons why EverQuest was so popular is that I think they [SOE] put together a game that specifically plays on those parts of humankind’s personalities. A lot of us play EverQuest because of our latent masochist tendencies... We like EverQuest because it’s difficult.

"I remember that when I started playing World of Warcraft, I couldn’t stop raving about the fact that it didn’t try to punch me in the face whenever I logged on and tried to XP, and that was refreshing and nice, but it’s also the reason why I quit playing it."

[burkemi5]

"There hasn’t been a game like [EverQuest] in difficulty and content matter," said Xzerion, guild leader of Inglourious Basterds. "You have to be good at playing your class. In World of Warcraft, you were playing with a bunch of nine year old kids and all they had to do was to show up, get some levels, and be somewhat useful on a raid. Here, it is clearly evident if somebody is playing with you and is not good and could deter whatever group or raid you’re trying to take part in."

Biased much?

[karsten]

yeah dude xzerion loves p99 and hates WoW JUST LIKE U AND ME

[Harrison]

That post reeks of "I've never raided in WoW successfully."

[Autotune]

That post reeks of "I've never raided in WoW successfully."

agreed.

EQ raiding

1st) stand under the dragon
2nd) push button
3rd) /loot

[karsten]

bro I killed that eyeball thingie in ahn quiraj or w/e i come correct

[karsten]

also the point of that post was to denote the fact that me n otto n xzerion are famous on the internet

[Daldaen]

agreed.

EQ raiding

1st) stand under the dragon
2nd) push button
3rd) /loot
Classic EQ raiding yep. Later EQ has some baller events that would make WoW players quit due to them being too hard. Demiplane was baller.

[knottyb0y]

But what about the theory that SOE doesn't want to stop hackers as it would mean fewer paying accounts, thus less revenue? I asked Thom about this.

"Wow," Thom responded. "I think that's pretty far-fetched. I have never heard anyone here ever say anything like that," he continued emphatically. "There's never any context of money in association with not fixing an issue

When I read that portion of the article (page 2 of the part 3) I almost fell out of my chair. Any software company that says they do not take money in to context when fixing an issue is a telling a lie. Every decision made on which bugs to fix, which issues to address, whether to crank out a new expansion or fix/ban cheating are ALL based on money. Unless cheaters begin to affect the subscription numbers of EQLive handily (and likely not to happen if the stories of hackers using 8-15 characters simultaneously are true) the issue will always be on the back burner.

This is one fortunate issue with P1999. Since it is not a subscription based service decisions can be made for the good of the community without having to first check with stakeholders and the affect on the money gained.

[Atmas]

Classic EQ raiding yep. Later EQ has some baller events that would make WoW players quit due to them being too hard. Demiplane was baller.

I think Rathe Council event took way more coordination than anything I ever came across in WoW and my guild did it without Vent.

On the other hand early EQ raiding was not that complex compared to some of the WoW stuff. Also in the expansions the bosses in group dungeons had strats, not really the case for original EQ.

Overall though you could make it to max level in WoW and not know shit about maximizing your class potential. EQ was the opposite, people who were max level (and didn't buy their toon) had skillz.

[Autotune]

people who were max level (and didn't buy their toon) had skillz.

um... lol. RuCereaus?

[Atmas]

um... lol. RuCereaus?

It's a generalization, there are always a couple of noobs, but it was never like WoW. In WoW it was hella easy to get max level and I would be in dungeon groups where tanks didn't know shit about tanking, dps didn't know what assisting or waiting for agro was, and healers were pretty much screwed by the former.

I also played on a PvP server, so people knew more about their class. We did RZ in tactics with an enemy guild zoning in selo-speeded, invulnerable SKs to Death Touch our tanks. It could also be that being on a PvP server my groups were pretty much guild only.

[Mcbard]

how does being bored make you want to cheat lol?

quit maybe, but cheat?

I'm not really sure about the psychology behind it. It comes from wanting to try new things I think. I tend not to quit things when I'm bored, but rather I try to explore them in new ways or dissect them so that I can learn all of the intricacies. I began doing the same thing on live when I was maxxed out.. my nights typically consisted of warping to [target 0003] and attempting to solo it for fun rather than logging on, seeing no raids happening, logging off sort of thing.

Anyway, my post was primarily in jest to make fun of all the people not only talking about VP in this thread (for some reason), but also for people shouting at the top of their e-lungs "VP ISNT OUT CAUSE SOMEONE HAXXED SO DEAL W/IT". So I countered that with my cynicism by reversing the reason for hacking. See what I did there? :)

[Autotune]

It's a generalization, there are always a couple of noobs, but it was never like WoW. In WoW it was hella easy to get max level and I would be in dungeon groups where tanks didn't know shit about tanking, dps didn't know what assisting or waiting for agro was, and healers were pretty much screwed by the former.

I also played on a PvP server, so people knew more about their class. We did RZ in tactics with an enemy guild zoning in selo-speeded, invulnerable SKs to Death Touch our tanks. It could also be that being on a PvP server my groups were pretty much guild only.


I'm pretty sure both can be true for both games. It isn't terribly hard to make it to max level on EQ or WoW (pre-expansions). Some people learn when they level and some don't. EQ doesn't have some magical skill barrier that keeps crappy players from reaching max level.

I remember way more people in WoW doing everything they could to crunch numbers, maximize dps thru rotations, and discover which items meshed well with certain builds. I was also in a raiding guild in WoW(pre expansions) and we got up to a few bosses into Naxx. (so it's all relative).

[Gwence]

starting with some encounters in velious eq raiding starts to get it's groove on, luclin has some tough encounters and PoP and beyond really take alot of coordination and skillz..

most of you newbs that quit before any of this wouldn't know, too busy crying about PoK or vah'shir.

[Atmas]

I'm pretty sure both can be true for both games. It isn't terribly hard to make it to max level on EQ or WoW (pre-expansions). Some people learn when they level and some don't. EQ doesn't have some magical skill barrier that keeps crappy players from reaching max level.

I remember way more people in WoW doing everything they could to crunch numbers, maximize dps thru rotations, and discover which items meshed well with certain builds. I was also in a raiding guild in WoW(pre expansions) and we got up to a few bosses into Naxx. (so it's all relative).

I agree it is all relative and people have different experiences. WoW has more variables, I remember crunching numbers as well.

It's not magic but I do believe there is a social/game mechanical barrier though, or at least there was one from my experience. In WoW any class could and can solo to max level and even get decent gear from quests. In EQ many classes can't solo and had to be more proficient at their class to not be kicked out of groups.

[burkemi5]

most of you newbs that quit before any of this wouldn't know, too busy crying about PoK or vah'shir.


lol, so true. PoP / luclin FTW

[Daldaen]

I think Rathe Council event took way more coordination than anything I ever came across in WoW and my guild did it without Vent.

On the other hand early EQ raiding was not that complex compared to some of the WoW stuff. Also in the expansions the bosses in group dungeons had strats, not really the case for original EQ.

Overall though you could make it to max level in WoW and not know shit about maximizing your class potential. EQ was the opposite, people who were max level (and didn't buy their toon) had skillz.

Lol if anyone ever raided Solteris... the 3rd event is likely the most coordination event in game.

Rathe Council is a close second having to kill the 12 mobs (6 mezzable 6 non mezzable) within a 7 minute window...

Balreth (Solteris 3) you had to beat a mob to 20%, at which point is splits into 2 different mobs, and balance their HP within 5% of each other down to 20% if they unbalance the event fails. At 20% they split into 4, repeating the balance again. At 20% of the 4 split, they split into 8. You balance those down and they split into 16 mobs and must be killed (no balance). So imagine balancing 8 mobs, within 5% of all of their HP, if any get 5% different at any point in time the event fails and you get to start again. This is while healing 8 different tanks.

Later EQ was better raiding than classic imo. But classic has some qualities over later EQ expansions too :P.

[bluejam]

but where is vp!?

[Kika Maslyaka]

Lol if anyone ever raided Solteris... the 3rd event is likely the most coordination event in game.

Rathe Council is a close second having to kill the 12 mobs (6 mezzable 6 non mezzable) within a 7 minute window...

Balreth (Solteris 3) you had to beat a mob to 20%, at which point is splits into 2 different mobs, and balance their HP within 5% of each other down to 20% if they unbalance the event fails. At 20% they split into 4, repeating the balance again. At 20% of the 4 split, they split into 8. You balance those down and they split into 16 mobs and must be killed (no balance). So imagine balancing 8 mobs, within 5% of all of their HP, if any get 5% different at any point in time the event fails and you get to start again. This is while healing 8 different tanks.

Later EQ was better raiding than classic imo. But classic has some qualities over later EQ expansions too :P.

before eq1 got to Solteris, all that was already done in eq2 and wow.
EQ1 was awesome at creating time sinks size of a moon, but its raids, specially pre-PoP were ultra boring.

It took our guild 3 freaken months of grinding trash mobs to get everyone VT key. Inside it took 4-6 hours to clear through endless waves of trash mobs just to get to the bosses, and what do we find at the end? Every single boss in VT is a 20-30min tank and spank.
EQ1 classic was maybe tough on solo game, but when it came to encounters - it was dull and repetitive

yeah, WoW/EQ2 soloing/leveling is very easy, but their raid scripts is what makes it worth trying. And unlike eq1, you can't bring 120+ people to zerg RZ encounter cause you don't have the skill to beat it, like guilds did on eq1 - in EQ2/WoW you are limited to your 4-6 groups, and zerging is not an option

[Eternal-Elf]

"We use the buffer overflow very selectively," expanded Rogean. "We could do it on entire zones at once, but we only do it when we know we're going to catch someone. And our rules are if you get caught using MQ you'll be permanently banned. We make players think twice about using cheats. We've banned thousands of accounts already. They know it is not tolerated so most of them will never use it.

.....Ban ?

[Shiftin]

the first half of the article (or at least the interview) was obviously written before the DLL, including that quote. the DLL introduction was what prompted the follow up.

[Gwence]

before eq1 got to Solteris, all that was already done in eq2 and wow.
EQ1 was awesome at creating time sinks size of a moon, but its raids, specially pre-PoP were ultra boring.

It took our guild 3 freaken months of grinding trash mobs to get everyone VT key. Inside it took 4-6 hours to clear through endless waves of trash mobs just to get to the bosses, and what do we find at the end? Every single boss in VT is a 20-30min tank and spank.
EQ1 classic was maybe tough on solo game, but when it came to encounters - it was dull and repetitive

yeah, WoW/EQ2 soloing/leveling is very easy, but their raid scripts is what makes it worth trying. And unlike eq1, you can't bring 120+ people to zerg RZ encounter cause you don't have the skill to beat it, like guilds did on eq1 - in EQ2/WoW you are limited to your 4-6 groups, and zerging is not an option

100 people at rallos with the hopes of flagging as many as possible, I know the flag mob would disappear after 72 people got flags but.. I can't remember if that mechanic was in initially or something that was added later once raid window was put into the game. In any case, Rallos was a balls to the wall type of fight that was fun as hell but not really reliant on skill as much as zerg presence (in the beginning days of PoP anyway).

I agree with you on VT, but I'll say I still liked the zone somewhat. I question your ability to clear it in 4-6 hours if we're talking pre-PoP, post PoP ok I'd believe it. Either way, the more involved luclin fights were outside of VP, VP was just the candy zone. Emp and High Priest were difficult fights in the beginning and very fun. SSRA in general was quite a bit of fun.

The solteris comment above that wasn't the first raid mechanic to implement a balancing strategy to win. Anguish had the Jelvin event and one of the coolest raids imo was one of those proving grounds trials, can't remember the exact name, where each player had to watch for the emotes and direct their character accordingly whether it be to duck or jump or take their rings off etc etc.

[Kevlar]

Rallos was pretty easy as long as you had an army of druids or chanters with charmed pet DPS, and enough rangers or whatever to kite the adds away.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Yeah, I agree Sssra was actually fun, but outside of Ssra, Burrower and Ring event in AC, that was it. It seems like all efforts on fun raids went into Ssra, and VT was just dropped on top of the pie as the "candy zone" for those insane enough to spend 3 month to get the key, and survive the trash clearing inside. Yeah 4 hours was just for the first floor =)
Without mage-parking, which i personally consider a cheat, there was no way any sane guild would do VP, both floors, in 1 day, even during PoP era, unless you were already over-geared for it.

As much as I loved beauty of the VT zone, the mobs models, and the "candies", PoP was inherently better raiding approach - the progression was based on difficulty of raids themselves, not on mindless grinding.

[Kevlar]

Yeah, I agree Sssra was actually fun, but outside of Ssra, Burrower and Ring event in AC, that was it. It seems like all efforts on fun raids went into Ssra, and VT was just dropped on top of the pie as the "candy zone" for those insane enough to spend 3 month to get the key, and survive the trash clearing inside. Yeah 4 hours was just for the first floor =)
Without mage-parking, which i personally consider a cheat, there was no way any sane guild would do VP, both floors, in 1 day, even during PoP era, unless you were already over-geared for it.

As much as I loved beauty of the VT zone, the mobs models, and the "candies", PoP was inherently better raiding approach - the progression was based on difficulty of raids themselves, not on mindless grinding.

You didn't have to park a mage. We did it by training, dragging, and necro rezzing.

[Gwence]

those pit adds during the script were noticeably faster than sow and rs3, kiters usually didnt last too long in my experience anyway

[Harrison]

VT raiding:

Stare at wall, cast CH every x seconds, win phat loot, go solo Velious content with your ridiculous gear.

[Gwence]

VT gear was only about 50 hp more than velious gear and in some case 25, it had better focus effects yes, but I wouldn't call Luclin gear all that OP, certainly couldn't solo velious mobs with it (if you're meaning raid mobs or even mini raid mobs)

[Kevlar]

those pit adds during the script were noticeably faster than sow and rs3, kiters usually didnt last too long in my experience anyway

Thats why you needed rangers/sks with snare.

[Gwence]

lol that worked for the first 50-60% of his life, but their wasnt a set amount of them they came in droves, it was very normal for them to overwhelm everyone by the last 10% I think they despawned though when he died, could be wrong.. hence the zerg tactic.

[Kevlar]

lol that worked for the first 50-60% of his life, but their wasnt a set amount of them they came in droves, it was very normal for them to overwhelm everyone by the last 10% I think they despawned though when he died, could be wrong.. hence the zerg tactic.

We always kited, and he always died easily. We had him on high priority farm status for a long time, mostly to keep all the other guilds on the server out of the elementals, so we could farm all those bosses at our leisure. This was when I was in Fire and Fury on FV.

[Harrison]

VT gear was only about 50 hp more than velious gear and in some case 25, it had better focus effects yes, but I wouldn't call Luclin gear all that OP, certainly couldn't solo velious mobs with it (if you're meaning raid mobs or even mini raid mobs)

It introduced like a billion more DS clickies that stacked with each other, amongst other things.

I would stack DS, and watch mobs melee themselves down while I CH myself over and over while almost never running OOM.

It worked well.

[Daldaen]

100 people at rallos with the hopes of flagging as many as possible, I know the flag mob would disappear after 72 people got flags but.. I can't remember if that mechanic was in initially or something that was added later once raid window was put into the game. In any case, Rallos was a balls to the wall type of fight that was fun as hell but not really reliant on skill as much as zerg presence (in the beginning days of PoP anyway).

I agree with you on VT, but I'll say I still liked the zone somewhat. I question your ability to clear it in 4-6 hours if we're talking pre-PoP, post PoP ok I'd believe it. Either way, the more involved luclin fights were outside of VP, VP was just the candy zone. Emp and High Priest were difficult fights in the beginning and very fun. SSRA in general was quite a bit of fun.

The solteris comment above that wasn't the first raid mechanic to implement a balancing strategy to win. Anguish had the Jelvin event and one of the coolest raids imo was one of those proving grounds trials, can't remember the exact name, where each player had to watch for the emotes and direct their character accordingly whether it be to duck or jump or take their rings off etc etc.
Indeed it wasn't the first. It was the most challenging, and now on live it is the most undoable event.

Jelvan's balance would just cause them to gain certain AEs, namely a spell silence and spell/melee slow. Balreth if you unbalanced the event would immediately fail and 20 zerglings(tiny golems) would pwn your raid.

Balancing 3 mobs is different than balancing 8 :P. Level 65-75~ raiding was the best of EQ's raiding experience.

[cyryllis]

post deleted

[Haynar]

When you google Haynar's real name the first thing that comes up is a profile on SailBoatOwners.com.
I wish I had a sailboat. I try to keep a low profile web wise. I don't have web pages, facebook, linkedin, nothing. I have ex-wives and stalker ex-girlfriends instead. So ya, you won't find much on me. If you know what to search for, you can find some of my publications out there.

H