A history of (the lack of) VP

[Shiftin]

We're 6 months and 17 days since the launch of kunark, and 1 month since the last word from a GM on why the pinnacle zone of the expansion has not been released. It's time to take a look at the timeline of the zone to try and convey the frustration regarding why it hasn't been released.

- Nilbog started working earnestly on VP in february. Here's a thread asking for help / input:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27566

- It was not included with Kunark release because it was not ready yet, and it was silly to delay kunark for a zone that couldn't be used or even accessed for at least a month after launch. Perfectly reasonable.

- Around the time we expected it to be released, tornados took out nilbog and the development server. Development continued to a limited degree on the live server in small measure. We know, for instance, that uthgaard was getting epic mobs set up. When tracking for naggy one day, I caught him spawning Zordak Ragefire. With epics being worked on, how far away could VP be? There should be a significant gap between VP and epics because epics trivialize a huge chunk of VP loot. Why would you be working on epics if VP wasn't done or basically done?

- On 8/2, after the development server had been back up for a while, uthgaard made a post ( http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=350724&postcount=23 ) stating that both the hole and VP were done. Both guilds numbers swelled, and heads started bumping like crazy as guilds were on high alert for an opening every weekend. We were told they were just working out an event to open them. A hole event is absolutely classic (an artifact should have been handed out), but a VP event isn't. Regardless, we were all happy VP was shortly to come.

- After over a month of peak numbers for both TR and TMO causing raid dispute after raid dispute, on 9/10, Rogean said that the high end guilds didn't deserve any new content and thus VP would not be opening. Also, the hole (a high level dungeon with a small raid encounter) was opened contradictory to that first point and without its event they didn't have time to do because of other pressing matters (presumably the account suspension / anti hacking stuff and Red99). Well... Hobby had already said 2 weeks before that that he had written the hole opening script / event ( http://www.fohguild.org/forums/2122365-post3213.html ) and that VP wasn't done.

- Rogean told us privately the day of the patch to come to an agreement regarding VP. Both sides made concessions and we presented a plan for a modified, time-limited rotation to rogean that same weekend. It was basically instantly rejected and we were told Nilbog wanted to talk to us about it. The compromise gave ZERO weight to the fact that TR had a raid force capable of probably clearing VP months before anyone else even killed Trakanon. As much as this pissed off my own guild, who understandably felt we should have first crack at the zone since we were fully keyed first, we thought getting any sort of plan out there in hopes of the zone opening was better than nothing.

That was over 4 weeks ago. PMs to both senior staff have gone unanswered since then. An entire server has been launched and 2 patches have been made to P99 since then, so it's not a matter of them not being around, it's a conscious decision to not release. Maybe it's not actually done still. Maybe they know a lot of people will quit beta testing R99 if they have stuff to raid again on P99. Maybe its still "punishment" and the effect it would have on the server as a whole wasn't considered. Maybe they don't think ignoring P99 and deviating from a classic timeline it will have a material adverse effect and would rather play with R99 concepts instead. I don't know. I try not to assign motive, so maybe there's another reason entirely I haven't considered.

Again, it is their server and we play here for free, but it gets super depressing seeing the population drop every night and hearing people talk about not having the motivation to do the same things over and over again who quit holding out hope that the zone we worked so hard to be ready for is coming any time soon. People in smaller raiding guilds who were hoping to be able to get more shots at raid mobs when we had moved our focus to VP are stuck in a bad spot as well.

Either way, the classic VP experience will be harder and harder to recreate here for either guild every week the zone gets delayed. Venturing into the zone for the first time with only 2-3 groups, testing yourself against a dragon that hits for 1k and seeing what classes you needed to get keys to next trakanon was a blast and a formative experience in classic EQ for me. Those memories were some of the most fond ones that drew me to this server in the first place.

Rogean, Nilbog: We know you don't owe us anything. You already provide hours upon hours of entertainment to hundreds, if not thousands, of players every week, for free. No one is more aware of this. However, you can't read the timeline from the perspective of a player and not understand that a lot of us think it doesn't really add up. Any sort of status update or response would be greatly appreciated.

Yes, TL;DR. Please keep guild on guild drama in RNF, this is an attempt to find out the real status of VP, something important to more than just 1 or 2 guilds.

[Seaweedpimp]

ty 4 posting

[Mardur]

ty for shaere

[Fountree]

very nice post, Shiftin.

[Tarathiel]

People in smaller raiding guilds who were hoping to be able to get more shots at raid mobs when we had moved our focus to VP are stuck in a bad spot as well.

[Bazia]

Rogean, Nilbog: We know you don't owe us anything.

[Selling]

boy i couldnt agree more with this post. If VP is taking this long how far after is Velious:? comming 2017?

[Bazia]

boy i couldnt agree more with this post. If VP is taking this long how far after is Velious:? comming 2017?

If you have an issue with development on p99 you could always play here:

www.eqclassic.org

[Goraxx]

Will never see VP

[Roanoke]

If you have an issue with development on p99 you could always play here:

www.eqclassic.org

There's a difference between "having an issue with development" and wanting to know what's going on with future development since we haven't heard anything in a while.

This thread is a good start to having a civil, open conversation WITHOUT starting a flame war over the "if you don't like it leave" mentality. We all like it, that's why we're here.

[Bazia]

There's a difference between "having an issue with development" and wanting to know what's going on with future development since we haven't heard anything in a while.

This thread is a good start to having a civil, open conversation WITHOUT starting a flame war over the "if you don't like it leave" mentality. We all like it, that's why we're here.

Pretty sure Admins have access to the forums, if they had wanted to say something it would be there.

The sense of entitlement for a FREE server is kind of odd imo.

Just because he threw in a sentence saying "We appreciate what you do." doesn't really negate the fact he is acting like he is entitled to an answer after 6 months.

[Lazortag]

Why is it that if something affects the top two guilds only it gets more attention than something that affects the four guilds that aren't at the top? Why are things like hoop nerfs, VP, and so on being addressed when things like the outrageously long variance aren't even being looked at? I guarantee that the latter issue has had for more of a detrimental impact on the health of the server and the raid scene than intentionally not releasing VP.

I'm not trying to be rude to you Shiftin, my impression is that you also think the variance is too long, but if the raiding guilds can't get together to carve out a compromise that's better than having to track raid mobs through un-classic 96 hour long windows, I doubt any acceptable compromise is going to be reached over VP any time soon.

[Shiftin]

There's a difference between "having an issue with development" and wanting to know what's going on with future development since we haven't heard anything in a while.

This thread is a good start to having a civil, open conversation WITHOUT starting a flame war over the "if you don't like it leave" mentality. We all like it, that's why we're here.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was going for.

[mostbitter]

A post crying about how people hit the end of content and are now losing interest so gms better hurry up and push out one more zone so they can max up on that and then end up at the same spot!

If you aren't interested in playing once you cleared everything then there is no point in the staff rushing to give you one last thing. It's likely detrimental to the server since holding out on that one last promise gives people something to come back to. Vp drops your guild comes back plays for a month or two and then cries about Velious.

It's a free server run by people on their own free time. In my opinion to complain about how that suits YOU is selfish. What is it that gives you the right to question this people? What have you personally done to provide them with equal compensation?

I think it's also fair to mention that this whole progression issue you are getting so self righteous about has likely already been tainted due to the blatant use of third party programs embraced by the raiding population of this server. I think that experienced players being the majority of the server further skews it from the classic experience because the people that are playing know just about every thing you would want to know in order to be successful in this game.

In closing your argument is moot, self righteous, and disgraceful.

Shame on you

[Mcbard]

I'm not trying to be rude to you Shiftin, my impression is that you also think the variance is too long, but if the raiding guilds can't get together to carve out a compromise that's better than having to track raid mobs through un-classic 96 hour long windows, I doubt any acceptable compromise is going to be reached over VP any time soon.


What are you talking about exactly? This was worked out between TMO and TR a month ago.

Edit: From the original post:
Rogean told us privately the day of the patch to come to an agreement regarding VP. Both sides made concessions and we presented a plan for a modified, time-limited rotation to rogean that same weekend. It was basically instantly rejected and we were told Nilbog wanted to talk to us about it. The compromise gave ZERO weight to the fact that TR had a raid force capable of probably clearing VP months before anyone else even killed Trakanon. As much as this pissed off my own guild, who understandably felt we should have first crack at the zone since we were fully keyed first, we thought getting any sort of plan out there in hopes of the zone opening was better than nothing.

[Roanoke]

Pretty sure Admins have access to the forums, if they had wanted to say something it would be there.

The sense of entitlement for a FREE server is kind of odd imo.

Just because he threw in a sentence saying "We appreciate what you do." doesn't really negate the fact he is acting like he is entitled to an answer after 6 months.

Read into things less.

There's nothing wrong with asking questions. VP affects more than just the top two guilds, it affects the general progression of the server.

Sure the admins don't owe us anything, even an explanation, but P99 would be slightly boring to develop for if there wasn't anyone here to play. Player concern shows interest in what's going on behind the scenes. Skew that into some strange outlook all you want. The OP sounds like he's trying to get an answer without filling up every thread with "WHERE VP?!!!?" like the rest of the community.

[Lazortag]

What are you talking about exactly? This was worked out between TMO and TR a month ago.

Note I said "acceptable" compromise.

[Bazia]

It's a free server run by people on their own free time. In my opinion to complain about how that suits YOU is selfish. What is it that gives you the right to question this people?

In closing your argument is moot, self righteous, and disgraceful.

Shame on you

[Bazia]

The OP sounds like he's trying to get an answer without filling up every thread with "WHERE VP?!!!?" like the rest of the community.

His post is the exact same thing as those posts.

It's just dressed up with excuses for his sense of entitlement and threats of lowered population.

It's a fancied up, passive-aggressive "WHERE VP?!!?" post.

[Harrison]

I hope VP is never released so the top guilds learn their lesson about being pieces of shit.

[Mcbard]

Note I said "acceptable" compromise.

Well that's half the reason Shiftin is posting this I think. All we want to know is what they want us to do.

The very next line in his post after the previously quoted paragraph:
That was over 4 weeks ago. PMs to both senior staff have gone unanswered since then.

The only thing we were told is that the agreement we reached didn't promote competition so it wouldn't work. Since then nothing has been worked on from what we (the members) are told. That was weeks ago.

[Kruel]

Some of the people who are VP keyd spend 50+ hours on this server and speak highly of the server. In classic they added these expansions because they know the normal gamer looses interest if there isnt expansions or more content added. I agree with the OP, all we would appreciate is some idea of a time frame. Uthgaard also made a server-wide message saying "VP soon" the day of the hole opening. Just seems that it would take a second for nil/rog to just drop a message with there intent.

[Rasah]

People in smaller raiding guilds who were hoping to be able to get more shots at raid mobs when we had moved our focus to VP are stuck in a bad spot as well.
Nice fairy tale. All it will do is make you better geared so you sociopaths can still clear out old content faster.

[Harrison]

- Veeshan's Peak will remain closed. We do not feel the behavior of the top raiding guilds over the last several months merits new content for them.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=48145

I think some of you should do some reading.

[Slathar]

do these "high end raiders" even realize they're in the minority? stop cheating and VP will get released, i don't see how that is even remotely difficult to understand.

push back VP until 2012.

[Maze513]

Inb4 VP

[mokfarg]

They have given their reason for postponing the opening. People cheated and bicker with each other and do not deserve it to be open at this time. Only the top guilds are being affected by this decision.

Only thing that will happen if the top guilds leave would be other guilds to fill in those holes.

[Fists]

BUT WHERE IS VP?

[Kruel]

do these "high end raiders" even realize they're in the minority? stop cheating and VP will get released, i don't see how that is even remotely difficult to understand.

push back VP until 2012.

Ive been in POF with 120 people and 320 online lol... True story actually. There are more raiders than you think. Although yes high end raiders are the minority.

[Autotune]

You guys worry too much about this game. Why care when VP is released? It will be here when it gets here.

The only reason why i think TR members are coming here is because the guild is dying out and not being able to raid with so many members living outside of p99. We all know that when VP comes out, you guys will get some members back for a few months (as well with epics). Just relax bros.


Go out and have some fun once.

[Fountree]

All of you guys whining about this post and making it a TMO AND TR only issue have no concept of classic EQ. VP being open affects everyone who intends to raid on the server, because EQ PVE is a progression. If you don't plan on raiding, fine. But most of the server does.

I thought this server's original intent was to be classic and emulate the classic experience? I know GMs technically don't owe us anything, but I've done my part and played with honesty, care and good will towards my fellow players all the way through as well as turning on a lot of people to the server, throughout all the player drama, raid bullshit, bag poofs that haven't been addressed, etc. I just want to see this server be a better place and stick to its stated goals (to be classic)... which for the most part it has done since I started playing here 15 months ago.

[Otto]

Yeah, this right here? stfu. Don't lie to us or yourself.

All of you in TMO and TR take this emulated server more serious then your virginity and wouldn't hand over named mobs in lower guk to smaller guilds, let alone stop poopsocking your pixeldragons even if you don't need them, and you 100% know that.

Go get some sunshine.. all those people "quitting cuz deres no VEEPEE!11!".. you can log in about 25 seconds after it opens, all you virgins have each others numbers anyway don't you?

Owned by development.

This guy is mad.

Great post Shiftin. Let's hope it gets some (any) attention from the staff!

[Dark Knight]

Nice fairy tale. All it will do is make you better geared so you sociopaths can still clear out old content faster.

[relapsee69]

Great post Shiftin. Let's hope it gets some (any) attention from the staff!

[Bazia]

They have given their reason for postponing the opening. People cheated and bicker with each other and do not deserve it to be open at this time. Only the top guilds are being affected by this decision.

Only thing that will happen if the top guilds leave would be other guilds to fill in those holes.

[Shiftin]

All of you guys whining about this post and making it a TMO AND TR only issue have no concept of classic EQ. VP being open affects everyone who intends to raid on the server, because EQ PVE is a progression. If you don't plan on raiding, fine. But most of the server does.

I thought this server's original intent was to be classic and emulate the classic experience? I know GMs technically don't owe us anything, but I've done my part and played with honesty, care and good will towards my fellow players all the way through as well as turning on a lot of people to the server, throughout all the player drama, raid bullshit, bag poofs that haven't been addressed, etc. I just want to see this server be a better place and stick to its stated goals (to be classic)... which for the most part it has done since I started playing here 15 months ago.

This.

What separates this server from any random EQ EMU server is that it is meant to resemble the classic experience.

Relive the classic Everquest MMORPG Gaming Experience as it was in 1999 and onward.

That's the quote that greets you when you first come to this site. There is more to the classic / Kunark era experience than making sure the drops in droga are right. For the experience to be classic, things need to happen in order.

In general, this server has been amazing about that sort of thing, going back to guises, rubicite, lustrous and manastones being in then out, patches happening in the right order to change mechanics, etc. Nilbog obviously care deeply for the "classicness" of the server, or he wouldn't get so excited about things like being able to remove maps or brown skeletons. That's why doing something like releasing the hole and working on epics before VP is released is so confusing and out of character.

Even if VP popped open tonight, either guild would be attacking it with at least 40 keyed people due to how long we've been waiting, possibly trivializing some of the encounters based purely on numbers. Every day that goes by, the classic experience of Kunark raiding deviates further from actually being classic.

I'm not going to get sucked into a flame war, but I want to respond to one other general point:

Implying that VP affects only a small fraction of the active playerbase is, quite frankly, ignorant. By that logic, Velious opening wouldn't change anything either. VP *doubles* the amount of raid targets in Kunark. Even if they end up being somewhat easy due to all the keys that are on the server, it's still a zone that takes the people raiding it away from other targets for an extended period of time because of how you have to enter, exit and move around the zone / deal with trash.

Anyone who has killed the bee boss or spiroc lord could kill kunark dragons if given the chance. Those chances will be significantly more frequent when you spread out the top guilds.

Off the top of my head, that impacts:
TR
TMO
VD
Taken
BDA
Reclamation
and all the people who are turned off to raiding guilds because of the overcrowding at the top right now.

There are a LOT of people represented by those guilds, and they tend to be the most active people on the server. To pretend that a major chunk of the active playerbase wouldn't be affected is ridiculous. Maybe it's not 51%, but I bet it's not far off.

Cheers.

[Quizy]

This.

What separates this server from any random EQ EMU server is that it is meant to resemble the classic experience.



That's the quote that greets you when you first come to this site. There is more to the classic / Kunark era experience than making sure the drops in droga are right. For the experience to be classic, things need to happen in order.

In general, this server has been amazing about that sort of thing, going back to guises, rubicite, lustrous and manastones being in then out, patches happening in the right order to change mechanics, etc. Nilbog obviously care deeply for the "classicness" of the server, or he wouldn't get so excited about things like being able to remove maps or brown skeletons. That's why doing something like releasing the hole and working on epics before VP is released is so confusing and out of character.

Even if VP popped open tonight, either guild would be attacking it with at least 40 keyed people due to how long we've been waiting, possibly trivializing some of the encounters based purely on numbers. Every day that goes by, the classic experience of Kunark raiding deviates further from actually being classic.

I'm not going to get sucked into a flame war, but I want to respond to one other general point:

Implying that VP affects only a small fraction of the active playerbase is, quite frankly, ignorant. By that logic, Velious opening wouldn't change anything either. VP *doubles* the amount of raid targets in Kunark. Even if they end up being somewhat easy due to all the keys that are on the server, it's still a zone that takes the people raiding it away from other targets for an extended period of time because of how you have to enter, exit and move around the zone / deal with trash.

Anyone who has killed the bee boss or spiroc lord could kill kunark dragons if given the chance. Those chances will be significantly more frequent when you spread out the top guilds.

Off the top of my head, that impacts:
TR
TMO
VD
Taken
BDA
Reclamation
and all the people who are turned off to raiding guilds because of the overcrowding at the top right now.

There are a LOT of people represented by those guilds, and they tend to be the most active people on the server. To pretend that a major chunk of the active playerbase wouldn't be affected is ridiculous. Maybe it's not 51%, but I bet it's not far off.

Cheers.

This is very true.. this being released does nothing but help the entire server.

get in the hole lately ? oh yeah!

[Slathar]

do you people think these developers owe you anything? your sense of entitlement is impressively pathetic.

PUSH IT BACK TO 2012

[Moonface]

Shiftin, you guys were caught cheating and do not deserve the zone.
Opening VP only helps TR and TMO out and you know it.
You will still continue to zerg all of the shit that is available.

[Harkor]

Shiftin, you guys were caught cheating and do not deserve the zone.
Opening VP only helps TR and TMO out and you know it.
You will still continue to zerg all of the shit that is available.

20 of 320 caught cheating.....that's 6% of the cheaters in the top two guilds...your point is weak at best

The timeline on this server has been pretty close up until this point, most here are just wondering why the deviation all of a sudden?

[Moonface]

20 of 320 caught cheating were actually stupid enough to cheat with guild tags on their characters.....the other 200 were not as stupid as Perun, who should draw a map of skyfire once a day.

I totally agree.

[Harkor]

I totally agree.

Take your R n F behavior there, this is server chat.

Thanks

[Moonface]

Take your R n F behavior there, this is server chat.

Thanks

So in server chat we beg the GMs to do things to benefit our guild?
Okay sorry back to RNF.

[Cyrano]

So in server chat we beg the GMs to do things to benefit our guild?
Okay sorry back to RNF.

I think he just wants the confusion surrounding this zone clarified. Didn't come off as begging or making demands. If you're looking for that I suggest you go here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51172.

[guineapig]

There is a right way and a wrong way to get the attention of the development staff.

If your posts become R&F worthy (while in server chat) they get deleted and the developers won't see them at all. So it is in your own benefit to keep it civil or the message definitely WON'T get through.

[Tycko]

1. Good Post Shiftin.
2. It's clear who the FEW people are who don't want VP open. Thanks for the input. You can stop putting in your opinion, we got it.
3. It's all about communication, which has been down for several weeks. I hope this opens up the comm lines again.

[Cyrano]

There is a right way and a wrong way to get the attention of the development staff.

If your posts become R&F worthy (while in server chat) they get deleted and the developers won't see them at all. So it is in your own benefit to keep it civil or the message definitely WON'T get through.

GP you can't control the trolls who just turn this into trash talking and slandering. This is obviously an earnest attempt to get GM attention because no one has heard anything in the past month. I think the players from TMO/TR and those on the second tier of raiding seem genuinely interested in getting a first-hand, public answer to this question because it does have a trickle down effect on the raid scene.

For months we've heard varying answers to this from different GMs and developers which Shiftin outlined beautifully. This is an attempt to get something from a reliable source for everyone to see.

I really don't see how you can point out that keeping it civil is to his benefit when he's been nothing but completely civil in this post. The only people I see making demands or slinging negative euphemisms are trolls who constantly attack the raiders in any forum we post in.

[Shiftin]

I think GP was referring to the people whose posts he deleted Cyrano. Thanks though :)

[Moonface]

GP you can't control the trolls who just turn this into trash talking and slandering. This is obviously an earnest attempt to get GM attention because no one has heard anything in the past month. I think the players from TMO/TR and those on the second tier of raiding seem genuinely interested in getting a first-hand, public answer to this question because it does have a trickle down effect on the raid scene.

For months we've heard varying answers to this from different GMs and developers which Shiftin outlined beautifully. This is an attempt to get something from a reliable source for everyone to see.

I really don't see how you can point out that keeping it civil is to his benefit when he's been nothing but completely civil in this post. The only people I see making demands or slinging negative euphemisms are trolls who constantly attack the raiders in any forum we post in.

Take a few deep breaths, they will announce it when they feel it is time.
Let them do their job.

[Quizy]

I think he just wants the confusion surrounding this zone clarified. Didn't come off as begging or making demands. If you're looking for that I suggest you go here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=51172.

Exactly.. weather the answer is good and bad these guys just seek an answer and i don't think there is anyting wrong with that..

some kids are the ones that wake up and wake everyone else in the house up and open all their presents before anyone opens 1 on christmas day and some kids just go steady and open things normally.. my point is everyone's different and some people just can't wait and need to know NAO!!

[Trackflare]

The only question that comes to mind is..
You guys are wanting VP, because its stagnant at the top, yet, once its released, it'll go back to the way it currently is after awhile and we are back at this same spot about the next big release

So, with this mentality, what exactly are you going to do when the server stops at Velious?

[Yukahwa]

Devs can fill in the massive void of content throughout norrath and turn P99 into a "if sony/verant gave a shit about the players" server..where the game is progressively improved rather than degenerated with each expansion.

So they can add meaningful future content or just fun insignificant content to fill in the big lack of quests in the old world and stuff.

But we have a lot of time before we cross that bridge.

[Daliant17447]

One solution would be to just wipe the server clean and start back at square one.

Finish beta testing PvP mechanics, then announce a release date for P99 Blue/Red servers both going live simultaneously and advertise across all mmo communities to build hype. Consider the last 2 years as just a long drawn out beta.

This would:
-Allow the servers to progress on an accurate timeline because the first 2 years of content are already developed and tested
-Allow both servers to progress through the timeline at the same rate
-Allow the devs adequate time to work on epics and velious without outcry from the community about when it will be finished
-Help to spread the population between the servers so that both are able to sustain a healthy population
-Allow the server to have a more accurate economy without all the duped plat and items now that the necessary counter-measures are in place

Some of the most basic mechanics have taken the entire duration of classic to get tuned properly (FD, melee damage, charm duration, resist checks just to name a few). The intent of the project was to provide a classic server that played as closely to the original EQ as possible with content being released on a timeline accurate to how it was back on live. If the server were to restart it would be able deliver just that.

On the flip side, obviously you would have a lot of the player-base upset about losing their characters and feeling like the last 2 years have been a waste... but lets face it, that time was spent playing EQ so it has already been a waste. Its not like any payment was taken for services or any promise was made that protected characters.

You might lose some people do to rage quiting, but I think you would also gain a significant ammount of people drawn by the fact that it would be a clean start for everyone, and a lot of the people who have played here and quit would be back for stuff they missed the first time around like guise/manastone.

Just an idea... I know I for one would be pumped about losing my level 60 and multiple level 50+ characters and having to reroll with bronze and fine steel... but maybe i'm just crazy.

[Alkorin]

I wasn't going to respond, but, for crying out loud, Daliant. What would that solve? We'll all race back to 50 or 60 or whatever and continue the same circle of annoyance.

Want a solution? Let's ALL act like adults and share the bloody sandbox. There's your solution.

[Daliant17447]

It would solve my boredom... for a while anyway ;)

Let's ALL act like adults and share the bloody sandbox. There's your solution.
This has about as much chance of happening as the idea I posted

[Alkorin]

Yeah, I know. Kinda sad, when you think about it.

[Fists]

+1 Daliant.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Just an idea... I know I for one would be pumped about losing my level 60 and multiple level 50+ characters and having to reroll with bronze and fine steel... but maybe i'm just crazy.

Yeah, I have 80+ days /played on my hybrid. How about those of you who want a server wipe go simulate that by deleting all your characters and start at level 1? ;)

[Vidrata]

+1 Daliant.

[Uthgaard]

I had talked to nilbog about the raiding clusterfuck. Showed him the treatise Jeremy wrote in the petition forum on why no one likes the poopsock clause in the rules, summarized the 3 hour long discussion between Zeelot and Kinsawt, explained why things are different now than at server launch, with the encounter logs, and he agreed. Once rogean got in on the conversation, he started arguing why they should stay, and nilbog's tune changed, despite all raiding guilds on p99 preferring FTE.
Raiding guilds shouldn't be forced to agree to some sort of rotation to get content released. The entire purpose of raiding is competition. It's like telling all of the baseball teams they've got to agree to take turns letting each other win because all the umpires that showed up to work quit due to the management.
A person can be reasonable, intelligent, or responsible. People cannot. People are a product of who is directly responsible for them. Even before I left, I acknowledged the raiding clusterfuck, but never once did I say, what do the players need to do differently. I said what we could have done to change the behavior of the players. The players will react predictably within a set of rules and under a given influence. No amount of hokey campfire singalongs with the guild leadership will change basic behaviorism.
Poor quality of guild competition is symptomatic for the staff, not the players. You can't individually coach a mob out of mob mentality and achieve tangible long term results.

[Bubbles]

Yeah, I have 80+ days /played on my hybrid. How about those of you who want a server wipe go simulate that by deleting all your characters and start at level 1? ;)

But you wouldn't lose a level 60! :P

On a more serious note, I kinda view the Devs sudden fascination with Red99 as something that's parallel to VP's release : 2 big events on p99 that are going to thin out the player bases and solve (to a very small degree, but it helps) the huge glut of ppl stuck bored at the higher end of p99.

[ElanoraBryght]

The only thing we were told is that the agreement we reached didn't promote competition so it wouldn't work.

Raiding guilds shouldn't be forced to agree to some sort of rotation to get content released. The entire purpose of raiding is competition.

Until the guilds - and the leaders of the guilds - learn to compete without breaking server rules, I do not expect to see VP open.

Every time a guild kites instead of engaging, dumps trains they couldn't handle, exploits pathing to hinder another guilds raid, or any of a dozen other rules violations that happen every week, I picture a gm shaking his head and putting another mark in in the "hell no, we're not opening VP" column.

[Fazlazen]

Je reviendrai à Montréal !

[TMFail]

Shiftin, you guys were caught cheating and do not deserve the zone.
Opening VP only helps TR and TMO out and you know it.
You will still continue to zerg all of the shit that is available.

you were caught training and you'd be suspended if we frapsed. so shaddup and mind your own business calling other people names :D

[Fazlazen]

you were caught training and you'd be suspended if we frapsed. so shaddup and mind your own business calling other people names :D

I think you got Moonface mistaken for Moondogg !

[Shiftin]

Please don't let this get dragged to RNF, at least until we get some sort of acknowledgement.

TY Uthgaard for chiming in.

[azeth]

Please don't let this get dragged to RNF, at least until we get some sort of acknowledgement.

TY Uthgaard for chiming in.

deleted my post, sorry.

[Kika Maslyaka]

A person can be reasonable, intelligent, or responsible. People cannot. People are a product of who is directly responsible for them. Even before I left, I acknowledged the raiding clusterfuck, but never once did I say, what do the players need to do differently. I said what we could have done to change the behavior of the players. The players will react predictably within a set of rules and under a given influence. No amount of hokey campfire singalongs with the guild leadership will change basic behaviorism.
Poor quality of guild competition is symptomatic for the staff, not the players. You can't individually coach a mob out of mob mentality and achieve tangible long term results.

well said!

[maximum]

A person can be reasonable, intelligent, or responsible. People cannot.

[Daliant17447]

How about those of you who want a server wipe go simulate that by deleting all your characters and start at level 1? ;)

This wouldn't simulate a server wipe, it would simulate joining the server 2 years late.

[Nirgon]

What I see is Shiftin creating a positive post asking for a status update from the devs. He lists his reasons of how they've complied with requests for spawn rotations and chaos to be worked out. I think that's a fair thing to do as long he doesn't keeping banging on the door like a mad man. Rogean and co. have a great policy of finishing and releasing classic content. Just be a little patient for your answer, even if it isn't what you want.

[Bazia]

+1 Daliant.

[YendorLootmonkey]

This wouldn't simulate a server wipe, it would simulate joining the server 2 years late.

It simulates me not slitting my wrists having to level up another ranger.

[Xanthias]

It simulates me not slitting my wrists having to level up another ranger.

Amen...

[Amuk]

I don't get how people can play blue p99, you are stuck unable to get raid mobs because career virgins can sit with a raid force for days more then you?

This game is a failure without pvp, hence the release of instanced mmos.

[Harkor]

That's why red 99 is so popular right? Instanced raids is why I am here and not on Rift or WoW....or any other of the watered down garbage floating around these days.

[Bazia]

That's why red 99 is so popular right? Instanced raids is why I am here and not on Rift or WoW....or any other of the watered down garbage floating around these days.

r99 isn't out yet.

And you're right after 2 weeks the beta isn't that popular considering it's just for testing.

http://nukezilla.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/facepalm.jpg

[Amuk]

At least wow raids require cooridination and more strategy then zerg the bitch. Blue99 just rewards the biggest loser for being there first and not leaving his comp with insanely large spawn variances.

[Shiftin]

PvP got its own subforum. If you want to rant about how awesome you are, start a thread there.

[Amuk]

I wasn't bragging just blown away people play this rubbish of being cockblocked by kids who won't log off for 50 hours on a 12 year old emu game to get raid mobs. Anyhow I'll leave this thread don't want to derail it pce.

[Nuggie]

I hope VP is never released so the top guilds learn their lesson about being pieces of shit.

:D :D :D

[Silentone]

Opening VP effects everyone, if you allow every guild to be on the same pace..the server feels very crowded. But when the server has a general flow, Ie top guilds doing high end stuff, it opens up more opportunity for the rest of the server. For example if Velious comes out 5 years from now, Everyone is going to be geared to the teeth and there is going to be way more people in high end dungeons and none in low end ones. This is a direct cause of delaying progression. Now I personaly dont believe that one or two months is going to be that detremental on the servers health, but I do believe the longer it takes the more of a issue it becomes.

[Uthgaard]

Until the guilds - and the leaders of the guilds - learn to compete without breaking server rules, I do not expect to see VP open.

Every time a guild kites instead of engaging, dumps trains they couldn't handle, exploits pathing to hinder another guilds raid, or any of a dozen other rules violations that happen every week, I picture a gm shaking his head and putting another mark in in the "hell no, we're not opening VP" column.

If you take the totality of what I said, and not each sentence alone, you'll see that what I'm conveying is that the chicken is being mistaken for the egg.

[Galacticus]

Problems with the beta on r99 havn't been fixed for weeks now. Whatever is up with the dev's and the time they spend doing things for eq emu, it effects everyone, not just p99 top guild or people on the forums.

[Bazia]

Problems with the beta on r99 havn't been fixed for weeks now. Whatever is up with the dev's and the time they spend doing things for eq emu, it effects everyone, not just p99 top guild or people on the forums.

Wish I knew anything about coding......

[Buellen]

OP and rest of the raiders who have chimed in.

not intended to flame or attack anyone.

Was this post realy the best way to communicate with devs? You stated you have PM them without any answer. What makes you think they will answer here? if they are not answering PM's. All this thread has done is inflame folks on both sides of the issue.


I could care less if the zone in question was opened or not "been their done that" Let the devs play with their creation if THEY choose to let it stand as it is so be it. If they choose to develope the game so that raiders are all granted every wish of how this server should be in their view so be it. IF they choose not to communicate with you me or anyone else so be it.

My 10 cents

Buellen the ever solo ranger

[formallydickman]

Problems with the beta on r99 havn't been fixed for weeks now. Whatever is up with the dev's and the time they spend doing things for eq emu, it effects everyone, not just p99 top guild or people on the forums.

The R99 beta has been out for, what, 14-16 days? How often do you honestly expect new beta builds to come out?

[Samoht]

there are some absolutely debilitating bugs in R99 right now.

[formallydickman]

interfering with your ability to beta test?

[Akim]

One solution would be to just wipe the server clean and start back at square one.

Finish beta testing PvP mechanics, then announce a release date for P99 Blue/Red servers both going live simultaneously and advertise across all mmo communities to build hype. Consider the last 2 years as just a long drawn out beta.

This would:
-Allow the servers to progress on an accurate timeline because the first 2 years of content are already developed and tested
-Allow both servers to progress through the timeline at the same rate
-Allow the devs adequate time to work on epics and velious without outcry from the community about when it will be finished
-Help to spread the population between the servers so that both are able to sustain a healthy population
-Allow the server to have a more accurate economy without all the duped plat and items now that the necessary counter-measures are in place

Some of the most basic mechanics have taken the entire duration of classic to get tuned properly (FD, melee damage, charm duration, resist checks just to name a few). The intent of the project was to provide a classic server that played as closely to the original EQ as possible with content being released on a timeline accurate to how it was back on live. If the server were to restart it would be able deliver just that.

On the flip side, obviously you would have a lot of the player-base upset about losing their characters and feeling like the last 2 years have been a waste... but lets face it, that time was spent playing EQ so it has already been a waste. Its not like any payment was taken for services or any promise was made that protected characters.

You might lose some people do to rage quiting, but I think you would also gain a significant ammount of people drawn by the fact that it would be a clean start for everyone, and a lot of the people who have played here and quit would be back for stuff they missed the first time around like guise/manastone.

Just an idea... I know I for one would be pumped about losing my level 60 and multiple level 50+ characters and having to reroll with bronze and fine steel... but maybe i'm just crazy.

word

[baub]

A restart of p99 when r99 launches would make patching both the servers extremely easy and convenient right?

Just throwing it out there!

[visage]

We're 6 months and 17 days since the launch of kunark, and 1 month since the last word from a GM on why the pinnacle zone of the expansion has not been released. It's time to take a look at the timeline of the zone to try and convey the frustration regarding why it hasn't been released.

- Nilbog started working earnestly on VP in february. Here's a thread asking for help / input:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27566

- It was not included with Kunark release because it was not ready yet, and it was silly to delay kunark for a zone that couldn't be used or even accessed for at least a month after launch. Perfectly reasonable.

- Around the time we expected it to be released, tornados took out nilbog and the development server. Development continued to a limited degree on the live server in small measure. We know, for instance, that uthgaard was getting epic mobs set up. When tracking for naggy one day, I caught him spawning Zordak Ragefire. With epics being worked on, how far away could VP be? There should be a significant gap between VP and epics because epics trivialize a huge chunk of VP loot. Why would you be working on epics if VP wasn't done or basically done?

- On 8/2, after the development server had been back up for a while, uthgaard made a post ( http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=350724&postcount=23 ) stating that both the hole and VP were done. Both guilds numbers swelled, and heads started bumping like crazy as guilds were on high alert for an opening every weekend. We were told they were just working out an event to open them. A hole event is absolutely classic (an artifact should have been handed out), but a VP event isn't. Regardless, we were all happy VP was shortly to come.

- After over a month of peak numbers for both TR and TMO causing raid dispute after raid dispute, on 9/10, Rogean said that the high end guilds didn't deserve any new content and thus VP would not be opening. Also, the hole (a high level dungeon with a small raid encounter) was opened contradictory to that first point and without its event they didn't have time to do because of other pressing matters (presumably the account suspension / anti hacking stuff and Red99). Well... Hobby had already said 2 weeks before that that he had written the hole opening script / event ( http://www.fohguild.org/forums/2122365-post3213.html ) and that VP wasn't done.

- Rogean told us privately the day of the patch to come to an agreement regarding VP. Both sides made concessions and we presented a plan for a modified, time-limited rotation to rogean that same weekend. It was basically instantly rejected and we were told Nilbog wanted to talk to us about it. The compromise gave ZERO weight to the fact that TR had a raid force capable of probably clearing VP months before anyone else even killed Trakanon. As much as this pissed off my own guild, who understandably felt we should have first crack at the zone since we were fully keyed first, we thought getting any sort of plan out there in hopes of the zone opening was better than nothing.

That was over 4 weeks ago. PMs to both senior staff have gone unanswered since then. An entire server has been launched and 2 patches have been made to P99 since then, so it's not a matter of them not being around, it's a conscious decision to not release. Maybe it's not actually done still. Maybe they know a lot of people will quit beta testing R99 if they have stuff to raid again on P99. Maybe its still "punishment" and the effect it would have on the server as a whole wasn't considered. Maybe they don't think ignoring P99 and deviating from a classic timeline it will have a material adverse effect and would rather play with R99 concepts instead. I don't know. I try not to assign motive, so maybe there's another reason entirely I haven't considered.

Again, it is their server and we play here for free, but it gets super depressing seeing the population drop every night and hearing people talk about not having the motivation to do the same things over and over again who quit holding out hope that the zone we worked so hard to be ready for is coming any time soon. People in smaller raiding guilds who were hoping to be able to get more shots at raid mobs when we had moved our focus to VP are stuck in a bad spot as well.

Either way, the classic VP experience will be harder and harder to recreate here for either guild every week the zone gets delayed. Venturing into the zone for the first time with only 2-3 groups, testing yourself against a dragon that hits for 1k and seeing what classes you needed to get keys to next trakanon was a blast and a formative experience in classic EQ for me. Those memories were some of the most fond ones that drew me to this server in the first place.

Rogean, Nilbog: We know you don't owe us anything. You already provide hours upon hours of entertainment to hundreds, if not thousands, of players every week, for free. No one is more aware of this. However, you can't read the timeline from the perspective of a player and not understand that a lot of us think it doesn't really add up. Any sort of status update or response would be greatly appreciated.

Yes, TL;DR. Please keep guild on guild drama in RNF, this is an attempt to find out the real status of VP, something important to more than just 1 or 2 guilds.


Problem solved. Glad you know , now we know you know. You know?

[azeth]

there are some absolutely debilitating bugs in R99 right now.

interfering with your ability to beta test?


^ lolol

[fishingme]

All i can think about is maybe if the top two raiding guilds weren't fuckheads to eachother and possibly other guilds(if that happened) then maybe VP would all ready be released by now. Just because you've worked out a compromise for the time being, that doesn't mean shit won't hit the fan later on.

[Samoht]

interfering with your ability to beta test?

Well if my level 7 rogue is permacamped by a level 24 druid without guards protecting me, I would say yes. That's two obviously debilitating bugs.

[Enygma]

I had talked to nilbog about the raiding clusterfuck. Showed him the treatise Jeremy wrote in the petition forum on why no one likes the poopsock clause in the rules, summarized the 3 hour long discussion between Zeelot and Kinsawt, explained why things are different now than at server launch, with the encounter logs, and he agreed. Once rogean got in on the conversation, he started arguing why they should stay, and nilbog's tune changed, despite all raiding guilds on p99 preferring FTE.
Raiding guilds shouldn't be forced to agree to some sort of rotation to get content released. The entire purpose of raiding is competition. It's like telling all of the baseball teams they've got to agree to take turns letting each other win because all the umpires that showed up to work quit due to the management.
A person can be reasonable, intelligent, or responsible. People cannot. People are a product of who is directly responsible for them. Even before I left, I acknowledged the raiding clusterfuck, but never once did I say, what do the players need to do differently. I said what we could have done to change the behavior of the players. The players will react predictably within a set of rules and under a given influence. No amount of hokey campfire singalongs with the guild leadership will change basic behaviorism.
Poor quality of guild competition is symptomatic for the staff, not the players. You can't individually coach a mob out of mob mentality and achieve tangible long term results.

WTB UTHGAARD BACK!! He actually gave a shit about the server and its integrity!

Uthgaard for Pres. of P99.

Sworen

[Autotune]

All i can think about is maybe if the top two raiding guilds weren't fuckheads to eachother and possibly other guilds(if that happened) then maybe VP would all ready be released by now. Just because you've worked out a compromise for the time being, that doesn't mean shit won't hit the fan later on.

That can always happen, no matter what we, or they, come up with.

[Dr4z3r]

Poor quality of guild competition is symptomatic for the staff, not the players. You can't individually coach a mob out of mob mentality and achieve tangible long term results.

I hate how much it sounds like players passing the buck, but I really do think that this hits at a lot of truth.

I have to wonder, though, to what extent that classic mechanics that P99 is invariably saddled with can actually be stretched to accommodate a better raiding solution.

[Shiftin]

Nilbog is a fan of competition. Competition, especially in an MMO, even more especially at the high end, breeds conflict. Conflict without any rules or enforcement becomes chaos. This is not new or groundbreaking, and it's one of the reasons instancing exists. This server is a case study in that principle and it's what Uthgaard was talking about yesterday.

As soon as the server broke 500 people, there should never have been any doubt that the end game would become overcrowded. It's a certainty in a server where the content is released slower than live due to volunteer development and there is a tremendous information advantage available over the time frame the server attempts to emulate. From that point on, it should never have been a surprise that conflict would ensue. Doing so ignores pretty basic gamer sociology with 12 years of MMO history laid open as a textbook full of proof.

Punishing a large chunk of the active playerbase (if that's the real reason VP is not out) due to something that was inevitable is counterintuitive. We want to know if that's the real reason, and if it is, what is realistically expected of us.

[fishingme]

That can always happen, no matter what we, or they, come up with.

My point was that maybe the guilds shouldn't have fucked with each other so much and brought their shit to the forums/made GMs deal with it.

[Autotune]

My point was that maybe the guilds shouldn't have fucked with each other so much and brought their shit to the forums/made GMs deal with it.

I was trying to explain things to you, but I couldn't do it without it turning into a RnF thread.

Therefore, I reply with this. You have no idea what you're talking about.

[fishingme]

I was trying to explain things to you, but I couldn't do it without it turning into a RnF thread.

Therefore, I reply with this. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Trying to explain, what? That rogean wasn't releasing VP because the guilds basically needed "punishment", nah man I understood that.

[falkun]

And what Autotune is alluding to, which Uthgaard put a bit more bluntly on page 7, is that its not the players (in sticking with Uthgaard's post, "players" are a "people", not a "person") that need to change, but rather how they are managed by leaders (server GMs, developers, etc.). As Uthgaard said, "People are a product of who is directly responsible for them." Within the rules as they are currently established, the "raiding clusterfuck" can legally happen. Even more strict than those rules, the two guilds most involved in the "raiding clusterfuck" provided a solution for VP, which was summarily shot down without alternatives or constructive criticism by the aforementioned leaders. Again, as Uthgaard said and I will restate, if the leaders want the "raiding clusterfuck" to stop, then they need to actively participate in changing the rule and server structure around which the "raiding clusterfuck" is allowed to exist, instead of ignoring ideas for change and sticking their heads in the sand.

If the leadership is doing it out of sheer punishment, its their server and they can do whatever they would like. But I have noticed the decline from peaks of 1000+ at peak hours to 600+ during those same times.

All that being said, I will also make my plug that this server is awesome, the leaders do a lot for this server, and I am loving my time here.

[fishingme]

And what Autotune is alluding to, which Uthgaard put a bit more bluntly on page 7, is that its not the players (in sticking with Uthgaard's post, "players" are a "people", not a "person") that need to change, but rather how they are managed by leaders (server GMs, developers, etc.). As Uthgaard said, "People are a product of who is directly responsible for them." Within the rules as they are currently established, the "raiding clusterfuck" can legally happen. Even more strict than those rules, the two guilds most involved in the "raiding clusterfuck" provided a solution for VP, which was summarily shot down without alternatives or constructive criticism by the aforementioned leaders. Again, as Uthgaard said and I will restate, if the leaders want the "raiding clusterfuck" to stop, then they need to actively participate in changing the rule and server structure around which the "raiding clusterfuck" is allowed to exist, instead of ignoring ideas for change and sticking their heads in the sand.

If the leadership is doing it out of sheer punishment, its their server and they can do whatever they would like. But I have noticed the decline from peaks of 1000+ at peak hours to 600+ during those same times.

All that being said, I will also make my plug that this server is awesome, the leaders do a lot for this server, and I am loving my time here.

I never read past page 2 because it was just going to be one of those threads again. What I was saying is that maybe they shouldn't have clusterfucked/douchebagged eachother and complained to volunteering guides so much in the first place. What I'm trying to say here is, to have made these raid proposals to eachother months ago before the forums/guides were too overwhelmed by them bitching.

edit: I mean, why act like children until something is held from you/you're somewhat disciplined and THEN work something out? Couldn't just do it beforehand?

[Dr4z3r]

I never read past page 2

You really should. Start here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=429478&postcount=61

[falkun]

I never read past page 2 because it was just going to be one of those threads again. What I was saying is that maybe they shouldn't have clusterfucked/douchebagged eachother and complained to volunteering guides so much in the first place. What I'm trying to say here is, to have made these raid proposals to eachother months ago before the forums/guides were too overwhelmed by them bitching.

edit: I mean, why act like children until something is held from you/you're somewhat disciplined and THEN work something out? Couldn't just do it beforehand?

You're right, people should not have clusterfucked each other in the first place. And persons can do that, but people cannot, as Uthgaard has already explained. One person can and will fuck the whole system for his own good at the expense of the people. That is society; the US economy should not have clusterfucked itself in the first place either, but it has. All you can do now is pick up the pieces and move forward. What you should/could/would have done is irrelevant, its only what you can do now that will create change.

To that end, a solution was proposed, and shot down. Like the NBA, we are at an impasse. However, beyond a short-sighted agreement over VP, a whole new Raiding Management Structure (TM) should be developed by the leadership, because it is that leadership (the RMS and the people enforcing it) that will govern the raiding scene going forward. Within the new RMS, all other methods of killing mobs, poopsocking, training, etc. that can occur, will occur. Rules will be established, followed, bent, pushed, prodded and outright broken. Persons will screw people over, as they have been doing under the current system. All that can be done is to address the current problem to the best of your ability. Like the hacker/security relationship, its a back and forth struggle that will not end.

Once upon a time, the current raid rules were an improvement over the old, now the new has become old, and a new new shall rise from the ashes. Change, the only constant.

[Szeth]

Chances are VP isn't actually done. You've all just lost the game.

[fishingme]

You really should. Start here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=429478&postcount=61

Nah, was responding to the OP with my first post

[Sorrow*qc]

how about you guys get a life?

[Phallax]

One solution would be to just wipe the server clean and start back at square one.

Finish beta testing PvP mechanics, then announce a release date for P99 Blue/Red servers both going live simultaneously and advertise across all mmo communities to build hype. Consider the last 2 years as just a long drawn out beta.

This would:
-Allow the servers to progress on an accurate timeline because the first 2 years of content are already developed and tested
-Allow both servers to progress through the timeline at the same rate
-Allow the devs adequate time to work on epics and velious without outcry from the community about when it will be finished
-Help to spread the population between the servers so that both are able to sustain a healthy population
-Allow the server to have a more accurate economy without all the duped plat and items now that the necessary counter-measures are in place

Some of the most basic mechanics have taken the entire duration of classic to get tuned properly (FD, melee damage, charm duration, resist checks just to name a few). The intent of the project was to provide a classic server that played as closely to the original EQ as possible with content being released on a timeline accurate to how it was back on live. If the server were to restart it would be able deliver just that.

On the flip side, obviously you would have a lot of the player-base upset about losing their characters and feeling like the last 2 years have been a waste... but lets face it, that time was spent playing EQ so it has already been a waste. Its not like any payment was taken for services or any promise was made that protected characters.

You might lose some people do to rage quiting, but I think you would also gain a significant ammount of people drawn by the fact that it would be a clean start for everyone, and a lot of the people who have played here and quit would be back for stuff they missed the first time around like guise/manastone.

Just an idea... I know I for one would be pumped about losing my level 60 and multiple level 50+ characters and having to reroll with bronze and fine steel... but maybe i'm just crazy.

[Tappin]

One solution would be to just wipe the server clean and start back at square one.

Finish beta testing PvP mechanics, then announce a release date for P99 Blue/Red servers both going live simultaneously and advertise across all mmo communities to build hype. Consider the last 2 years as just a long drawn out beta.

This would:
-Allow the servers to progress on an accurate timeline because the first 2 years of content are already developed and tested
-Allow both servers to progress through the timeline at the same rate
-Allow the devs adequate time to work on epics and velious without outcry from the community about when it will be finished
-Help to spread the population between the servers so that both are able to sustain a healthy population
-Allow the server to have a more accurate economy without all the duped plat and items now that the necessary counter-measures are in place

Some of the most basic mechanics have taken the entire duration of classic to get tuned properly (FD, melee damage, charm duration, resist checks just to name a few). The intent of the project was to provide a classic server that played as closely to the original EQ as possible with content being released on a timeline accurate to how it was back on live. If the server were to restart it would be able deliver just that.

On the flip side, obviously you would have a lot of the player-base upset about losing their characters and feeling like the last 2 years have been a waste... but lets face it, that time was spent playing EQ so it has already been a waste. Its not like any payment was taken for services or any promise was made that protected characters.

You might lose some people do to rage quiting, but I think you would also gain a significant ammount of people drawn by the fact that it would be a clean start for everyone, and a lot of the people who have played here and quit would be back for stuff they missed the first time around like guise/manastone.

Just an idea... I know I for one would be pumped about losing my level 60 and multiple level 50+ characters and having to reroll with bronze and fine steel... but maybe i'm just crazy.

[Slathar]

daliant for president of the mother fucking united states of fucking america

WIPE THE DIRTY PIXELS CLEAN WITH BLEACH AND MAGNETS

[Autotune]

Trying to explain, what? That rogean wasn't releasing VP because the guilds basically needed "punishment", nah man I understood that.

Management set this up to end like this.

Basically, they police the raid guilds like children. Solving every dispute instead of leaving everything up to us to settle. That ends up getting tiring for them and they don't always enforce every petition or even reply. Then you get things where one guild snipes pulls and they only get the loot taken away and "please don't do that again". Which leads them to the thought "well if nothing bad happens, let's just see what we can get away with"

Now you have the end game raid scene. Where the "Balls" of the server (Uthgaard) has quit and we are left with guides and Rogean. If there was ever a time to pull shady shit, it would be now. Yet, for the most part, we have been governing each other better than before.

If they had let the rules be done away with and let us completely just crap all over each other, sooner or later we would have all come to an agreement. Yet, we will continue to keep this Mother/Children setup and we will continue to "taddle" every thing to mommy dearest, that is how they want it.

[YendorLootmonkey]

LOL wiping would make it even worse:

a) A certain percentage of players (mostly casual) would not want to level up toons again, and not come back after wipe.

b) You still have two organized uber guilds that, now issued a new, fresh competitive challenge, will re-organize similarly to try to beat each other now that they perceive they're on equal footing.

c) These min-maxers, now having started all at the same time instead of trickling in as they happened upon P99, will camp the highest XP zones (Crushbone/belts, Blackburrow/gnoll fangs, Unrest, Oasis, Guk/SolB/Kedge... you know the drill) and cockblock the other guild (and everyone else on the server) by attempting to monopolize coveted spawns (FBSS, etc). This will drive other casual players away.

d) Planar/Dragon/God poopsocking/cockblocking/training/drama all over again, within 2 months. Right back where we started.

So, you want a server wipe? I hear there's a brand new server starting up soon. And there won't be any poopsocking on it, so you can have true competition. You can all start at level 1 and see which guild is the best over there! :)

[JenJen]

gd yendor stop winning threads all the time

[mostbitter]

Management set this up to end like this.

Basically, they police the raid guilds like children. Solving every dispute instead of leaving everything up to us to settle. That ends up getting tiring for them and they don't always enforce every petition or even reply. Then you get things where one guild snipes pulls and they only get the loot taken away and "please don't do that again". Which leads them to the thought "well if nothing bad happens, let's just see what we can get away with"

Now you have the end game raid scene. Where the "Balls" of the server (Uthgaard) has quit and we are left with guides and Rogean. If there was ever a time to pull shady shit, it would be now. Yet, for the most part, we have been governing each other better than before.

If they had let the rules be done away with and let us completely just crap all over each other, sooner or later we would have all come to an agreement. Yet, we will continue to keep this Mother/Children setup and we will continue to "taddle" every thing to mommy dearest, that is how they want it.

no, on several levels. no no no no no.

What server did you play on? i'm assuming it wasn't a red server becuase if you had played on a red server like I did you would know that just letting it go isn't the answer because what youll end up with is a guild that cock block any and all competition for as long as they feel like.

[Yinikren]

The reason this is taking so long is because the 5-10% of the server population who wants to go there pisses of devs off to no end. Who the hell would want to work on content for you guys when shit would start the instant it happened? Rogean and Nilbog and the rest of the dev team don't get half the thanks they should for keeping this server running on their free time.

[Moonface]

I was trying to explain things to you, but I couldn't do it without it turning into a RnF thread.

Therefore, I reply with this. You have no idea what you're talking about.

You couldn't explain who your mother is without turning it into RnF.
This is also the reason VP isn't out, because you can't act mature.

[Autotune]

You couldn't explain who your mother is without turning it into RnF.
This is also the reason VP isn't out, because you can't act mature.

Aww, <3 you too.

[Jjlent]

YOU ARE PURE SCUM STEALIN, VP IS ALL UR FAULT
its time to grow up... neener neener

[Fists]

shutup jj you smelly sexy stallion

[citizen1080]

Management set this up to end like this.

Basically, they police the raid guilds like children. Solving every dispute instead of leaving everything up to us to settle. That ends up getting tiring for them and they don't always enforce every petition or even reply. Then you get things where one guild snipes pulls and they only get the loot taken away and "please don't do that again". Which leads them to the thought "well if nothing bad happens, let's just see what we can get away with"

Now you have the end game raid scene. Where the "Balls" of the server (Uthgaard) has quit and we are left with guides and Rogean. If there was ever a time to pull shady shit, it would be now. Yet, for the most part, we have been governing each other better than before.

If they had let the rules be done away with and let us completely just crap all over each other, sooner or later we would have all come to an agreement. Yet, we will continue to keep this Mother/Children setup and we will continue to "taddle" every thing to mommy dearest, that is how they want it.

This is pretty much what I said in my perfect world post.

[Fists]

CONGRATS ON PLANAR PROTECTOR BOBBY

[citizen1080]

<3

It has been a long road...one filled with many useless thread updates. But we have arrived!

[Loke]

Management set this up to end like this.

Basically, they police the raid guilds like children. Solving every dispute instead of leaving everything up to us to settle. That ends up getting tiring for them and they don't always enforce every petition or even reply. Then you get things where one guild snipes pulls and they only get the loot taken away and "please don't do that again". Which leads them to the thought "well if nothing bad happens, let's just see what we can get away with"

Now you have the end game raid scene. Where the "Balls" of the server (Uthgaard) has quit and we are left with guides and Rogean. If there was ever a time to pull shady shit, it would be now. Yet, for the most part, we have been governing each other better than before.

If they had let the rules be done away with and let us completely just crap all over each other, sooner or later we would have all come to an agreement. Yet, we will continue to keep this Mother/Children setup and we will continue to "taddle" every thing to mommy dearest, that is how they want it.

Didn't we have we have a discussion in /tells a month or two ago about this exact subject? Either way, I agree...

[Autotune]

This is pretty much what I said in my perfect world post.

Hmm. I think i'm going to start looking thru your posts then and just copy paste. Would probably help keep me from seeing a ban-hammer when posting outside of RnF.

Didn't we have we have a discussion in /tells a month or two ago about this exact subject? Either way, I agree...

Yeah we did.

[Aadill]

CONGRATS ON PLANAR PROTECTOR BOBBY

crap i'm lagging behind

EDIT: 40% posting penalty.

[citizen1080]

Hmm. I think i'm going to start looking thru your posts then and just copy paste. Would probably help keep me from seeing a ban-hammer when posting outside of RnF.



Yeah we did.



http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=47689&highlight=perfect+world

=D

[fishingme]

Management set this up to end like this.

Basically, they police the raid guilds like children. Solving every dispute instead of leaving everything up to us to settle. That ends up getting tiring for them and they don't always enforce every petition or even reply. Then you get things where one guild snipes pulls and they only get the loot taken away and "please don't do that again". Which leads them to the thought "well if nothing bad happens, let's just see what we can get away with"

Now you have the end game raid scene. Where the "Balls" of the server (Uthgaard) has quit and we are left with guides and Rogean. If there was ever a time to pull shady shit, it would be now. Yet, for the most part, we have been governing each other better than before.

If they had let the rules be done away with and let us completely just crap all over each other, sooner or later we would have all come to an agreement. Yet, we will continue to keep this Mother/Children setup and we will continue to "taddle" every thing to mommy dearest, that is how they want it.


Then why are you trying to say what I originally thought was wrong? Or did I just not give enough information to you?

[mostbitter]

That's exactly the way it was on TZ/VZ. You know how much self policing was done? None. The end result was that servers death. No GM involvement just means that the guild with more free time will win. People who are going to win those fights are just going to push people off the server until they get bored and leave the server with no one to play on it.

[Seaweedpimp]

VP key complete

[mwatt]

LOL wiping would make it even worse:

a) A certain percentage of players (mostly casual) would not want to level up toons again, and not come back after wipe.

b) You still have two organized uber guilds that, now issued a new, fresh competitive challenge, will re-organize similarly to try to beat each other now that they perceive they're on equal footing.

c) These min-maxers, now having started all at the same time instead of trickling in as they happened upon P99, will camp the highest XP zones (Crushbone/belts, Blackburrow/gnoll fangs, Unrest, Oasis, Guk/SolB/Kedge... you know the drill) and cockblock the other guild (and everyone else on the server) by attempting to monopolize coveted spawns (FBSS, etc). This will drive other casual players away.

d) Planar/Dragon/God poopsocking/cockblocking/training/drama all over again, within 2 months. Right back where we started.

So, you want a server wipe? I hear there's a brand new server starting up soon. And there won't be any poopsocking on it, so you can have true competition. You can all start at level 1 and see which guild is the best over there! :)

This ^

Let me underscore the fact that if there were a wipe, many players would loose trust in the powers that be. What would be the point of regrowing new chars if at any time those in control might aribtrarily decide they need to wipe? The game is in reality, a huge time waster anyway - a wipe would only underscore that fact and yes, many would never return.

The people that advocate wipe probably have no real life and so would not mind so much. Well, a lot of us do have actual lives filled with responsibilities and we have to arrange things to get any kind of decent, but still limited, play time. A wipe would just be a kick in the teeth.

[Silentone]

One option even though im completely against it, is implementing the PoP raid frame where you could have 72 people I believe in a raid...then when u engage the target it greyed out to people out side the raid. That way FTE = Win..no GM intervention no nothing. Again i know its not classic...but holding out on VP because we have two guilds who are competetive is plain silly....

[azeth]

LOL wiping would make it even worse:

a) A certain percentage of players (mostly casual) would not want to level up toons again, and not come back after wipe.

b) You still have two organized uber guilds that, now issued a new, fresh competitive challenge, will re-organize similarly to try to beat each other now that they perceive they're on equal footing.

c) These min-maxers, now having started all at the same time instead of trickling in as they happened upon P99, will camp the highest XP zones (Crushbone/belts, Blackburrow/gnoll fangs, Unrest, Oasis, Guk/SolB/Kedge... you know the drill) and cockblock the other guild (and everyone else on the server) by attempting to monopolize coveted spawns (FBSS, etc). This will drive other casual players away.

d) Planar/Dragon/God poopsocking/cockblocking/training/drama all over again, within 2 months. Right back where we started.

So, you want a server wipe? I hear there's a brand new server starting up soon. And there won't be any poopsocking on it, so you can have true competition. You can all start at level 1 and see which guild is the best over there! :)

Yendor, I'm sure you'll understand the following statement is in no way meant negatively.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Yendor is the epitome of the high-end casual player. Now, I was never in his guild, nor have we spoken more than a few times. Though, I am familiar with his playtime, attitude (positive) and demeanor from the forums and the few times we spoke.

Basically, you are responding to Daliant, who represents another archetypical player - the high end committed raider. I think we can all easily jump to the conclusion that you inherently would not agree with losing your character given:

a.) you do not plan, and more importantly desire to race to raid high end content like VP.
b.) as a "casual" player you likely have invested more time in building your non tangible character rep as opposed to your inventory
c.) any reason to wipe the server has literally 0 baring on your gameplay, apart from price adjustments in EC.

Now, there really is no compromise given the 2 options are polar opposite - either wipe it or don't wipe it. I don't think anyone's thoughts really need to be hashed out, you might as well just post your stereotype (casual or raider) and we can all easily identify your opinion on the subject.

also, no i still dont play here i just dont have any calls to make @ work right now.

[Kika Maslyaka]

wipe the sever - loose half of population over night.
If not more...

[Zeelot]

This thread has been completely derailed into a "wipe it clean" thread. lol.
The raid situation has been improving. We'll govern ourselves if we have to. There's been virtually no server staff supervising raids for weeks and issues have been minimal. Lets keep it up. The key is communication.

[Orruar]

Blaming the devs for the actions of the players is laughable. This notion that somehow they have created an environment where people will act like tards just deflects the responsibility from the people acting like tards to anyone else they can find. This is typical tard behavior, so I'm not so surprised. Put any system in place, and they'll find a way to tard it up. My theory is this: At some point in the past, some critically retarded mass was formed on server. It was enough that any new person coming along wanting to raid on this server had to face the retarded reality in front of him. Any mildly intelligent person would distance themselves from such a system, while the tards flocked to it. Any real leader of these guilds would have put an end to this kind of shit long ago. But it seems they enjoy the drama and bullshit going on, so it will continue.

This server is what you (the players) make of it, and you've turned it into a tard infested hellhole. That is your only real accomplishment. The Trak kills could have been done by anyone with a pulse. This raid content is so ridiculously easy that monkeys mashing the keyboard would have a reasonable chance of success. But monkeys could have never turned a wonderful idea of a server into a shithole with constant bullshit drama over pixels. Bravo, top guilds. Bravo.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Yendor, I'm sure you'll understand the following statement is in no way meant negatively.

I didn't take it to be. But if you look at what I said objectively, without knowing that I posted it from my particular bias, and excusing the fact that it's off-topic and directed at the "wipe-it-cleaners", would you agree that's pretty much how it would play out (i.e. we'd be in the same place within two months after the min-maxers raced to 50 and started fighting over boss mobs again)? If not, why not? If so, how would that be healthy for the server?

And then the $10,000 question: Can we then expect the "wipe-it-cleaners" to start over on the fresh R99 server, where the true competition will be, or are they only happy if everyone here loses everything, just out of spite?

I'm thinking it's the latter, and has nothing to do with a fresh start for everyone... because they can have that in a few weeks over on R99. They just gotta overcome a few more challenges...

[Cyrano]

Real $10,000 question: What do we need to do, as players, to get VP opened?

[Shiftin]

Real $10,000 question: What do we need to do, as players, to get VP opened?

If it's finished, it's as simple as setting the server to load the zone (it currently isn't just locked, the server isn't booting it up) and unlocking it. What do we have to do to make this happen?

[Silentone]

Donate more $$

[Autotune]

If it's finished, it's as simple as setting the server to load the zone (it currently isn't just locked, the server isn't booting it up) and unlocking it. What do we have to do to make this happen?

1st rule of VP: Do not talk about VP.

[Daliant17447]

And then the $10,000 question: Can we then expect the "wipe-it-cleaners" to start over on the fresh R99 server, where the true competition will be, or are they only happy if everyone here loses everything, just out of spite?

I'm thinking it's the latter, and has nothing to do with a fresh start for everyone... because they can have that in a few weeks over on R99. They just gotta overcome a few more challenges...

Its not about making people lose 2 years of work out of spite. Its about putting the project in a position where it could fulfill the original goal of the project. The cons of a server wipe heavily out weigh the pros which is why it will never happen. Rogean and Nilbog don't seem overly concerned about straying away from the timeline and large gaps between content so I wouldn't worry about it. Your ranger is safe Yendor ;)

[YendorLootmonkey]

Your ranger is safe Yendor ;)

Only in this context! Rangers are pretty much in danger every other time.

[Moggster]

Only in this context! Rangers are pretty much in danger every other time.

rangers are only safe while trolling forums preferably while not logged in eq at the time

[falkun]

Newbie_Yard_Snake_03 shouts, 'YENDOR'

[Duie]

http://youtu.be/Nd8iZB4IW_o

My bet is this will be out before VP

[Harrison]

Wiping a server for any reason causes the server to lose all hope of legitimacy. I've seen it on a lot of private servers for various games. You don't do it.

[Skope]

Here I am, sipping my coffee near work, wondering just how things are going on in the world of p99. Turns out it's quite literally the same old shit over and over again. Doodoo. Doodoo everywhere. Stinky, filthy, creamy, steaming piles of doodoo.

Shiftin, you have to realize by now just how stupid your buddies and anti-buddies seem right now. At this point it's like beating a dead horse, but let's make sure the fucker won't move anymore. This time for certain.

You complain about the lack of VP because you want new content yet spend more time here doing the shit you've done a million times over. This doesn't make any sense to me.

You guys have spoken about the absurd amount of time that raiding has come to require, mostly in the form of the dirty sock, and yet are the only ones who partake in that behavior. This makes even less sense to me...

What's worse, though, is that you've attempted to replace the words "obsessive compulsive behavior" and "stupidity" with "competition" and "skill." Trying to convince someone that because you've unnecessarily spent more time logged in means you're better than them at EQ (if that even fucking means anything) is ludicrous.

Complaining about the raid scene and the lack of content being held up because of how greedy, idiotic and the flat-out douchebag behavior you've propagated is even worse. This is your filth that you've helped create. Roll around and revel in it, because this is when you should be enjoying the server the most.

EQ is different than modern MMOs because the competition isn't between you and the content, but between you and the other person looking to kill that dragon in the 15 seconds it takes to do so. It's been driven to such an extreme here that you guys are more willing to wake up at 3am and lose hours of sleep in order to kill a mob whose loot you don't need if it means the other guild doesn't get it. That's not being dedicated, that's called stupid.

If you guys would stop taking this shit so seriously you wouldn't be at this point. Vp would be out, the server would be increasing in population instead of slowly decreasing and the 365 accounts would have been permabanned (instead of shown the welcome mat after a meager 'punishment'), and, to boot, you'd actually get a good night's rest and actually enjoy playing here. Instead it's the same old shit over and over again, only this time it's someone else barking.

Quite frankly, I'm glad I quit. I can't help but shake the feeling that f things had been explained to me beforehand just how the GMs would act and how the raid scene would look it would have spared me quite a bit of time from the beginning.

Tootles

[yaaaflow]

If you guys would stop taking this shit so seriously you wouldn't be at this point. Vp would be out, the server would be increasing in population instead of slowly decreasing and the 365 accounts would have been permabanned (instead of shown the welcome mat after a meager 'punishment'), and, to boot, you'd actually get a good night's rest and actually enjoy playing here. Instead it's the same old shit over and over again, only this time it's someone else barking.


Can someone explain to me the logic leap between TMO/TR take this game too seriously --> the cheaters would have been banned ifTMO/TR took it less seriously? Is this just a wehrmecht-ish "Jews cause all the problems in this world" replacing "jews" with "uberguilds" and "this world" with "this server"?

[Skope]

Can someone explain to me the logic leap between TMO/TR take this game too seriously --> the cheaters would have been banned ifTMO/TR took it less seriously? Is this just a wehrmecht-ish "Jews cause all the problems in this world" replacing "jews" with "uberguilds" and "this world" with "this server"?

Because the people who hacked didnt take the game seriously enough, right?

2 different sets of people and the same reasons tying them together.

[yaaaflow]

So the people who cheated were not banned, and the reason they were not banned is because they took the game too seriously?

[Skope]

So the people who cheated were not banned, and the reason they were not banned is because they took the game too seriously?

After rereading my post I quite clearly never implied that or said anything anywhere close. If you know why I quit and the shitstorm I gave the GMs you'd also not have said something that utterly dumb. Nice try, though, Loke2


Bob and weave!

[Dr4z3r]

So the people who cheated were not banned, and the reason they were not banned is because they took the game too seriously?After rereading my post I quite clearly never implied that or said anything anywhere close.

Unless English changed a lot in the past few days, you said exactly that:

If you guys would stop taking this shit so seriously you wouldn't be at this point. Vp would be out, the server would be increasing in population instead of slowly decreasing and the 365 accounts would have been permabanned

[Daliant17447]

Real $10,000 question: What do we need to do, as players, to get VP opened?

Wait.

[Autotune]

all this VP spam about when is VP reminds me of...


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/raNM0UvR_Bo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


someone should edit this video.

[Cyrano]

Unless English changed a lot in the past few days, you said exactly that:

hahah.

[Phallax]

Wait.

[ScaryBadAssholes]

Just wait for Velious and the REAL VP aka. TOV.

[Lamprey]

Something I noticed over the years: people who spend too much time playing EQ eventually acquire a sense of entitlement. More, over time they start to think of themselves as the voice for "the players", which contributes to the sense of entitlement. Their sense of importance is inflated - after all, if they're the playerbase, and the playerbase makes a MMO, then they deserve anything they want.

Louis XIV exhibited the same mentality when he famously said, "I am the state".

The most often raised argument by these people is that if they're not happy they'll leave, and so they should be made happy because EQ without the players won't survive. So really, they're not selfish, no way - they're concerned with the GREATER GOOD!

So I'd like to correct a misunderstanding.

You're not the playerbase of this game. You're about 5% of the playerbase in this game. If you're not happy and leave, the game won't die - matter of fact, the remaining 95% will probably be much happier with you gone. In no way do you represent the people who play EQ - what you do represent is what can go wrong if someone plays EQ too much. So don't pretend you speak for everybody.

[azeth]

You're not the playerbase of this game. You're about 5% of the playerbase in this game. If you're not happy and leave, the game won't die - matter of fact, the remaining 95% will probably be much happier with you gone. In no way do you represent the people who play EQ - what you do represent is what can go wrong if someone plays EQ too much. So don't pretend you speak for everybody.

True on live servers in 2002-present.

Notice the population online right now?

http://i.imgur.com/RQ0d2.jpg

I'd wager around 20-40% of those folks are raiders or twinks.

[Shiftin]

You're not the playerbase of this game. You're about 5% of the playerbase in this game. If you're not happy and leave, the game won't die - matter of fact, the remaining 95% will probably be much happier with you gone. In no way do you represent the people who play EQ - what you do represent is what can go wrong if someone plays EQ too much. So don't pretend you speak for everybody.

This is a gross underrepresentation. I can't think of a single night i've logged on and the TR+TMO hasn't been, at the very least, 10% of the server, and i've seen it as high as around 30%. Add in the other more casual raiding guilds and the number goes even higher.

[feste]

This is a gross underrepresentation. I can't think of a single night i've logged on and the TR+TMO hasn't been, at the very least, 10% of the server, and i've seen it as high as around 30%. Add in the other more casual raiding guilds and the number goes even higher.

I think that a player base and who is logged on at one time are 2 different things. The die hards will be there every night but if everyone who plays casually logged in all at once I think 5% is pretty close.

[Mcbard]

Regardless of who the playerbase is, who it isn't, when they count, and when they don't, the only thing that matters in my mind as far as the release of VP goes is set out in what the servers mission is to create an as accurate as possible classic EverQuest timeline. Given that criteria withholding a zone thats finished and past over due based on behavior seems... weird.

That said, I think the devs should take the following approach when it comes to content release: fuck what the players think. Develop the server according to its stated goals, the classic EverQuest timeline, and let them sort out whos more important since that's all they seem to care about.

That's just my opinion though, and I am not a developer of this project, so I'll just wait to see what happens like everyone else.

[Cyrano]

What does it matter who the player base is? This argument is completely irrelevant to the original question posed by Shiftin.

You guys are making this about playtime discrepancies, attitudes issues, guild representation, etc. This thread has nothing to do with any of this. The members of TR and TMO were told that our actions are the reason VP is being withheld, we offered a solution which was shot down with no feedback. We're simply asking for direction in the matter.

You guys on the outside have no idea what it's really like between these two guilds. All you see is a gross misrepresentation of our playerbases from people, who many times aren't even TR/TMO members, talking shit on the public forums. To many players, and ex/non-players alike, these forums are simply a way to kill time and are in no way indicative of who that person is in game or in real life. So please, stop acting like our actions in game affect you in any way, shape, or form because they don't. Most of you have zero interaction with any of us, TR or TMO, in game. You have no voice in the discussion of this thread because you simply aren't part of this crowd so stop making it about taking out your petty issues with people you know nothing about, and go back to RnF where you can flame away with reckless abandon.

[Autotune]

What does it matter who the player base is? This argument is completely irrelevant to the original question posed by Shiftin.

You guys are making this about playtime discrepancies, attitudes issues, guild representation, etc. This thread has nothing to do with any of this. The members of TR and TMO were told that our actions are the reason VP is being withheld, we offered a solution which was shot down with no feedback. We're simply asking for direction in the matter.

You guys on the outside have no idea what it's really like between these two guilds. All you see is a gross misrepresentation of our playerbases from people, who many times aren't even TR/TMO members, talking shit on the public forums. To many players, and ex/non-players alike, these forums are simply a way to kill time and are in no way indicative of who that person is in game or in real life. So please, stop acting like our actions in game affect you in any way, shape, or form because they don't. Most of you have zero interaction with any of us, TR or TMO, in game. You have no voice in the discussion of this thread because you simply aren't part of this crowd so stop making it about taking out your petty issues with people you know nothing about, and go back to RnF where you can flame away with reckless abandon.

^this is pretty spot on.

However, I think us getting ignored was a clear message from them. They don't care to respond, we shouldn't care to ask. It will get here sooner or later or never and people will quit.

I still don't see why we have to agree to terms Rogean deems worthy for us as long as the acting guilds participating in VP agree to them then that should be enough. Would they shutdown VP because we chose to do the zone different because it works for us? or raid ban TR or TMO because they choose not to fight over a pixelgon in VP and instead decided to share a zone?

Just wait till VP gets here, then we can work it with all involved parties interests at mind with agreed upon rules.

[feste]

What does it matter who the player base is? This argument is completely irrelevant to the original question posed by Shiftin.


Fair enough I was definitely off on a tangent. On the whole main point for what its worth (nothing really) I think punishing keyed guilds like that is dumb. If its done open it.

[mostbitter]

the whole classic timeline arguement is silly. unless this server intends to continually release content it's going to end up at a stopping point someday anyway. You guys think you're the only people here and so your concerns are the content that you are interested in and nothing else. The staff have a MASSIVE project to handle here and have deemed the people pushing for VP as undeserving of their time due to behavior. Try as you might to spin the situation that's the jist of it.

There are how many active staff members working on this project right now? A small handful of people to answer petitions from over a thousand players, to work on bugs throughout the whole game, and to work on another entirely different server.

Knowing this all of you people still feel entitled to being first priority because you want this right now!! It's just selfish. To think that you have worked out some sort of frivolous agreement that you probably wouldn't stick to is enough growing up, is laughable. Continually posting about the same thing over and over and over just shows how childish the people interested in it are.

What benefit is there to giving in to the demands of these people? Are we going to see a permanent boost to server population? Are you guys going to be forever satisfied now that VP is released? Will free candy and snacks be avialable concessions provided to all the casual players by all the hardcore raiders?

I doubt it. My expectation is that the raiders will be satisfied for a month or two and then we will have the same spew coming from these people about opening Velious. I'd imagine there will also be quite an ordeal in regards to contesting this content despite any deal you are pretending to have worked out.



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_jVFYJ4sAkJw/TMxkLRwT_AI/AAAAAAAAAD8/JfhH-bIojEI/s1600/mig1_erica_campbell_1_l.jpg

[Gwence]

^ What zone is she in?

[Cyrano]

^ What zone is she in?

The Plane of Tears.

[Bubbles]

The 'classic' argument is simply this:

The weapons from VP are a big boost over what drops in kunark (especially once the BOBDE stopped dropping)...

However, the second epics come out, the real worth of most VP weapons goes completely kaput outside of gearing up alts who aren't getting epics anytime soon.

And if you consider the keying process, it's not as feasible to key your alts as it would to say, sebillis or howling stones.

So a major part of the zone's reward system would be essentially wasted if there wasn't proper spacing between VP coming out and epics being introduced.

[Fists]

What does it matter who the player base is? This argument is completely irrelevant to the original question posed by Shiftin.

You guys are making this about playtime discrepancies, attitudes issues, guild representation, etc. This thread has nothing to do with any of this. The members of TR and TMO were told that our actions are the reason VP is being withheld, we offered a solution which was shot down with no feedback. We're simply asking for direction in the matter.

You guys on the outside have no idea what it's really like between these two guilds. All you see is a gross misrepresentation of our playerbases from people, who many times aren't even TR/TMO members, talking shit on the public forums. To many players, and ex/non-players alike, these forums are simply a way to kill time and are in no way indicative of who that person is in game or in real life. So please, stop acting like our actions in game affect you in any way, shape, or form because they don't. Most of you have zero interaction with any of us, TR or TMO, in game. You have no voice in the discussion of this thread because you simply aren't part of this crowd so stop making it about taking out your petty issues with people you know nothing about, and go back to RnF where you can flame away with reckless abandon.