POLL: Classic resists or Null's bastardized VZ/TZ rehash?

[mimixownzall]

Basically, do you want P99 with PvP (classic as possible) or do you want VZ/TZ with P99 content (something the VZ/TZ guys could never get right)?

[tbox]

Basically:

Vote 1 if you plan on shitting on players while resistant to everything.

Vote 2 if you don't want to be shit on by spell immune players.

[tmoneynegro]

Basically:

Vote 1 if you plan on shitting on players while resistant to everything.

Vote 2 if you don't want to be shit on by spell immune players.

This is completely false. Direct damage spell resists under Classic vs Null's system aren't very different. The only real difference is that Null's system has people chain rooting each other every fight which isn't very fun to play on even if you win all of your fights. Feels more like a job than fun when you're casting dispel on yourself to get rid of root or snare every 3 seconds that you're logged in.

[Null]

I think a 3rd option is in order considering it isn't even the same code that was on VZTZ:

Give it a shot and provide feedback as needed.

[Envious]

I think a 3rd option is in order considering it isn't even the same code that was on VZTZ:

Give it a shot and provide feedback as needed.

Cant give a shot when you have server down...

Get server up before trolling forums.

[Sarkov]

I'm confused, isn't the whole goal of the project to emulate a classic pvp experience?

Where the fuck is this custom bs coming from?

[lindz]

Are diminishing returns coming next? -.-

[Sarkov]

NO, GO PLAY WOW!!!.... wait.

[Lovely]

I don't really care if it's Classic or whatever else. I just want it to be good and balanced. I get the classic feel no matter how resists are, maybe that's just me

[Blayze]

Im all for everyone having an opinion and expressing said opinion but shouldn't you at least try it out before going nuts about it!?!? Classic resists didnt make for any kind of balanced pvp some aspects should be changed.

[Crenshinabon]

This pole is a biased pos.
Resist have not even been tested.
Stop bitching until we try it.
Try to make a less stupid pole.

[bamzal]

shits fucked cry wolf chain casting root gg

[lindz]

There are a lot of people that are not here for yet another pvp box, but here for the P99 experience with pvp. We don't want the vztz crap, we'd like a legit classic feel not the devs vision of how they can do better than sony.

[tmoneynegro]

This pole is a biased pos.
Resist have not even been tested.
Stop bitching until we try it.
Try to make a less stupid pole.

Anybody that's played TZVZ before knows exactly how the Null resist system is.

No real MMORPG on earth lets you chain cast CC spells on people, Null somehow thinks this is a good idea. Games like DAoC have immunity timers, games like WoW have recast times on the spells. EQ just let people be immune to them.

[Mardur]

Translation:

Choose:

a) Classic resists that apparently a large amount of people here haven't even experienced.

b) Null resists that no one have experienced.

[MilkyMilkyCamel]

I would just like the game to be as close to classic as possible. The resist system that was in place over the past couple of weeks was not, as far as I know, identical to classic. I think what Null is aiming to do with these changes is just to test out some different stuff with resists, so that we can move closer to how the system worked in classic. Whatever gets put in place, we'll be able to tell which aspects of it move us further away from the classic feel, and which ones are more similar to true classic EQ pvp resist system. The problem areas (i.e. if roots/stuns are too difficult to full resist, or if partial resists are occurring too rarely/often) can be adjusted and re-tested.

We're still in beta here, and I don't think the guys behind this project really intend to bait the community into trying it by claiming it's classic mode, and then switch some non-classic resist system into the game. They're trying to achieve a classic server because they enjoyed classic, just like we did. Why would they want to deviate from that by implementing a reinterpretation of it? I don't think that they've been afflicted with the same mental disability that George Lucas has been suffering from lately (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVqgSFg3zSw).

At least, this is how I have interpreted Null's posts on the subject. If this is the case and they're looking to hone in on the classic resist formulas, then I think this needs to be addressed and clearly explicated in a new post for the sake of PR. With the servers being down, the hysteria behind this discussion is starting to get pretty intense. Clearly communicating the development goals to the players is really essential to keeping the community optimistic and excited for release.

All of that being said, I did vote for "classic" in this poll, because classic is what I want. But again, I think that's what Null and the other devs want. What they're implementing now is (I think, I hope) just for testing purposes, like performing a titration on the resist system.

TL;DR? See the following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-wG4X_dYLc

[Mardur]

Need more posters like that Milky guy.

[Bazia]

I don't really care if it's Classic or whatever else. I just want it to be good and balanced. I get the classic feel no matter how resists are, maybe that's just me

[tmoneynegro]

I think what Null is aiming to do with these changes is just to test out some different stuff with resists, so that we can move closer to how the system worked in classic.

Then you would be completely wrong on that point. He's trying to force us to accept the TZVZ, not similar to regular EQ at all resist system.


Whatever gets put in place, we'll be able to tell which aspects of it move us further away from the classic feel, and which ones are more similar to true classic EQ pvp resist system.

There's no guessing for how it affects PvP, we already played it on TZVZ. It plays like a completely different game and is nothing like EQ classic.



I don't think the guys behind this project really intend to bait the community into trying it by claiming it's classic mode, and then switch some non-classic resist system into the game.

Lol, well open your eyes because it just happened. Why do you think there are so many angry posts.

[Lawler]

Lol, well open your eyes because it just happened. Why do you think there are so many angry posts.
Seems like your the only one making angry posts, LOL root?

[pasi]

I'd like to see disabling spells follow the classic resist system with DoTs and damage spells under a modified system. What falls into disabling spells is up for debate though. Obviously, root and snare are a given, but I'm not sure what to make of stuns, spin stuns (with current p99 code), mez, etc.

[Pudge]

stop qqing god. you're getting all these blues hyped up over nothing. there are like 5 ppl from vztz who think like you do. the rest know that resists will be done very well

[tmoneynegro]

stop qqing god. you're getting all these blues hyped up over nothing. there are like 5 ppl from vztz who think like you do. the rest know that resists will be done very well

There's more people that dislike Null system than like it, period. Far higher number like normal resist system.

[mimixownzall]

I'm confused, isn't the whole goal of the project to emulate a classic pvp experience?

Where the fuck is this custom bs coming from?

+1

[mitic]

biased poll is biased

[bamzal]

There are a lot of people that are not here for yet another pvp box, but here for the P99 experience with pvp. We don't want the vztz crap, we'd like a legit classic feel not the devs vision of how they can do better than sony.

+1

[bamzal]

Seems like your the only one making angry posts, LOL root?

did you not see my cry wolf post earier?

[MilkyMilkyCamel]

Then you would be completely wrong on that point. He's trying to force us to accept the TZVZ, not similar to regular EQ at all resist system.

Null has already said that he wants to implement it, have people try it, and get feedback about it. He did not say that we're receiving some permanent changes to the resist system. I'm not trying to single you out and argue with you just because you tried to issue a counterpoint to my post, but the facts just don't agree with what you're saying. Implementing changes in a beta phase for testing and feedback seems completely rational and acceptable; there's nothing being "forced" onto the players for release at this point.


There's no guessing for how it affects PvP, we already played it on TZVZ. It plays like a completely different game and is nothing like EQ classic.

Well, Null's formulas are supposedly not straight copies from TZVZ, but that remains to be seen. If the play-testing reveals that the changes (whether they're just like TZVZ, very similar, or completely different) are detrimental to the goal of providing a classic feel for PvP, I'm sure they'll change it. Sure, you have a right to be concerned about similarities to TZVZ, but fanatically opposing the testing of a new system during a beta phase is a bit inappropriate.

As a beta tester, it's your (voluntary) job to test the changes and report how they affect the game. After testing, answer: Which of the changes specifically bring the server further from classic PvP? Which ones seem to be a move in the right direction? What other approaches might be useful to consider in the task of bringing the server closer to a recreation of EQ classic? We should all be here to engage in reasonably polite, logical, constructive discussions so that we can all benefit from a high-quality end product. We should all feel free to voice our concerns, but keep them in check, given that we're discussing proposed changes to be tested in a beta version.

I think people in general can sometimes forget that beta does work toward a release date, but not in a completely linear sense. There is not a measurable amount of progress that can necessarily be completed within a set time frame. The time required to test and review the effects of a particular change can be estimated pretty accurately, but the time required to actually identify the "correct" change for something cannot be known. Sometimes, the most progress you can get out of a week is finding out that another option doesn't work. Not every change is put in because it is known to be desired in the end product.

We're baking a delicious cake from scratch, and adjusting the recipe. Some iterations of the cake are better than others, but on the whole, it's improving. The cake isn't perfect yet, but the good news is that we get to taste-test a lot of cake in the meantime.


Lol, well open your eyes because it just happened. Why do you think there are so many angry posts.

Your leaps in logic make me wonder if I might be responding to a troll post right now, but I write this anyway for the people who are genuinely concerned about this matter. And if you're not trolling, I hope you will not be so defensive as to take offense to my response. It's meant as admonishment, not scolding, and I'm just trying to help everyone here to adopt a healthier, more rational outlook on things.

TL;DR? Another helpful link for you: https://www.ncjrs.gov/ondcppubs/publications/pdf/marijuana_myths_facts.pdf

[Chronoburn]

I have an idea, bring up beta so we can test this and then we can talk shit about this new system.

I'd like to stay classic but I'm willing to test this new implementation.

[lindz]

Milky, what is the point in testing a system that is not even close to the classic resist system? What do the developers gain by knowing that their custom system works like it is supposed to or doesn't. Does this help them get closer to implementing the classic resists? I don't think it does. I think they are trying to implement their own custom rules into a server that has promised to be classic and people are VERY upset over that.

We have been looking forward to this for years and to have them decide they are making a custom pvp server is really disheartening. A lot of people feel this way about the dynamic pvp system as well. Classic is the RZ/TZ/VZ or SZ rules not some new fangled cool idea. We would play on one of the many other emu's if we wanted custom. :(

edit: At the end of the day, yes I'll test and post feedback when the servers come up. Just explaining why people are not happy with this idea.

[MilkyMilkyCamel]

Responding to lindz,

It was my impression that the majority of community feedback over the past two weeks regarding the resist system was that there were too many full resists / full lands happening, and too few partial resists (compared to classic, I mean, and not just some players' preferences).

The resist system they had in place was not exactly the same as the classic system, correct? And that is because the exact resist check formulas for classic are unknown?

If the answer to either of those questions is a definite, verifiable "no" -- without any exceptions or additional modifying clauses -- then yes, I would agree that the proposed changes represent a major departure from the ideals that the server was built upon, and I would be very disappointed.

[mimixownzall]

Man you people are fucking amazin...

look at all these beggars demanding shit.... like you fucking people carry any pull in life or even on this forum.


Shit hasnt even been up to test the new system and all these lil fags are bitchin and whining already.

FUCK YOUR CLASSIC MEMORIES, this is what is now so shut the fuck up and play or move along.

Disrespecting the people (devs) that give your worthless little lives meaning.

bravo

You think there is whining now? Wait till it goes live and every class is bitching about what resists are fucked and what ones are not. It will get scary crazy with people whining and bitching: This class is OP, That class is OP, my class is gimp blah blah blah. Now that you have opened up the can-o-worms of balancing outside of classic EQ, you will be doing nothing but trying to appease everyone. You are throwing out the 'well, it's classic' solution to 99% of the problems. Now people will want reduced damage done by this class... upped damage this class does because this other class does too much, yadda yadda yadda.

If you make it classic no one can argue that what you are doing is bullshit. Are you going to have people who argue exactly WHAT is classic? Yes, you always will. But, those numbers will pale in comparison to what you guys are opening yourselves up to.

You step outside of your server model/rules, you open yourselves up for bullshit.

Case in point: 360+ cheaters not banned when rules stated they would. Now THAT was a fucking mess.

[Buhbuh]

Responding to lindz,

It was my impression that the majority of community feedback over the past two weeks regarding the resist system was that there were too many full resists / full lands happening, and too few partial resists (compared to classic, I mean, and not just some players' preferences).

The resist system they had in place was not exactly the same as the classic system, correct? And that is because the exact resist check formulas for classic are unknown?

If the answer to either of those questions is a definite, verifiable "no" -- without any exceptions or additional modifying clauses -- then yes, I would agree that the proposed changes represent a major departure from the ideals that the server was built upon, and I would be very disappointed.

Lookie! Another person with good analytical skills! I think we're up to four or five people now?

[Billbike]

Everyone go back to p1999 and go to the arena or duel eachother and see how those "classic resist" work for you.

Null knows his shit.

[mimixownzall]

^---- VZTZ fanboi

[Dontmez_Mebro]

Man you people are fucking amazin...

look at all these beggars demanding shit.... like you fucking people carry any pull in life or even on this forum.


Shit hasnt even been up to test the new system and all these lil fags are bitchin and whining already.

FUCK YOUR CLASSIC MEMORIES, this is what is now so shut the fuck up and play or move along.

Disrespecting the people (devs) that give your worthless little lives meaning.

bravo
I guess if we're going to be nasty about all this then you can eat a bag of dicks.

[mimixownzall]

It's funny to look at all the troll accounts who have less than 20 total posts loggin in and voting for Null.

[Billbike]

^---- VZTZ fanboi

PvP fanboy.

For a long while vztz was the only classic PvP, so yes I played there.

So you people think there's " classic resist" just sitting in the garage collecting dust somewhere?

Who did you play on VZTZ Mimi?

[mimixownzall]

PvP fanboy.

For a long while vztz was the only classic PvP, so yes I played there.

So you people think there's " classic resist" just sitting in the garage collecting dust somewhere?

Who did you play on VZTZ Mimi?

I didn't. I played live PVP.

[Billbike]

I didn't. I played live PVP.

Being that you never even played VZTZ, how do you know what you are arguing against?

While you were bluing it up with unicorns and rainbows, the guys at VZTZ were actually PvPing. Their experience with EMU and PVP is relevant and should not be discounted in ignorance.

[mimixownzall]

Being that you never even played VZTZ, how do you know what you are arguing against?

I'm arguing against anything that isn't classic. Null came from VZTZ; VZTZ did not use a classic pvp system; Null is trying to implement a non-classic resist system. 2+2=4


While you were bluing it up with unicorns and rainbows, the guys at VZTZ were actually PvPing. Their experience with EMU and PVP is relevant and should not be discounted in ignorance.

Yawn, obligatory 'bluebie' drivel from a VZTZ'r.

The argument is pretty simple:

Red99 has been advertized as a Classic PVP server just as p99 is advertized as a Classic EQ server.

Stuff is being implemented that is NOT classic.

[Ceros]

If you guys hadn't noticed, mimix ownz all, so just give in.

[valithteezee]

I'm arguing against anything that isn't classic. Null came from VZTZ; VZTZ did not use a classic pvp system; Null is trying to implement a non-classic resist system. 2+2=4




Yawn, obligatory 'bluebie' drivel from a VZTZ'r.

The argument is pretty simple:

Red99 has been advertized as a Classic PVP server just as p99 is advertized as a Classic EQ server.

Stuff is being implemented that is NOT classic.


OCCUPYRED99 MOVEMENT, TAKE IT TO THE STREETS.

[Billbike]

[QUOTE=mimixownzall;435113] I'm arguing against anything that isn't classic. Null came from VZTZ; VZTZ did not use a classic pvp system; Null is trying to implement a non-classic resist system. 2+2=4

You really want everything truely classic? Really?

The current state of beta isn't classic. Ruleset, dynamic pvp range, etc. Many things will be changed, and therefore not classic.

Classic is a relative concept. You want it classic like day 1, or classic when you played on live? That would make it classic for YOU right?

Edit: Mimi a real female? Defending her thread with emotion, ignoring logic, etc.

[Harrison]

Being that you never even played VZTZ, how do you know what you are arguing against?

While you were bluing it up with unicorns and rainbows, the guys at VZTZ were actually PvPing. Their experience with EMU and PVP is relevant and should not be discounted in ignorance.

rofl.

[Amuk]

Poll is biased, I haven't played on Null's box and all I've heard about him are good things - I'd prolly be in support of whatever people think feels like classic. I played briefly on VZ/TZ box 3.0 and am not sure if it was Null's resist system but - being darknessed with 180 mr and zerged down by hybrids hitting for full dmg was pretty shitty.

On live I griefed more then anything - as a solo pvper, since my guild didn't log on till 11pm cst + I solo pvpd around velks as a rogue near 160 unbuffed mr, and before that as a tantor tusk/fungi troll war with around 130 mr - If snares ever landed my solo pvp career wouldn't have been possible. I remember if there was an ench with raputre/shaman with malo I would have to retreat, but other then that - I was pretty free moving.

I understand CC spells should be landing on naked people, but on the other hand - if they're landing on 150+mr resist people it'll definitely be garbage assist train on the snared guy with 0 skill involved.

[Wonton]

Beta must still be down because this mimi guy has been blowing up the forums all day.

[mimixownzall]

Work =/

[jilena]

I don't think Null has some crazy agenda for making the server into the dream of the VZTZ crowd while fucking everyone else over.

That said I can see where people's disappointment is coming from. While people can argue the points at which spells full resist, partial resist, or masturbate til they bleed, I am pretty sure everyone agrees that most CC spells had a standard set max duration in pve or pvp, and either landed or didn't, and not some 6 tick max duration with partial resists causing shorter durations.

There is no real way to claim that implementing this is an attempt to achieve a classic experience. If you wanted a classic experience, you would simply have the spells work like they did in classic, and tweak resist numbers to achieve the optimal point where XXX resist had the desired effect of allowing the spell to land or resist or partial ZZZ percent of the time. And then you would tweak things like root breaking from damage and what not until that also matched classic. Completely changing the resist dynamic for "balance" is not trying to code a classic system.

Either way I will play and I will have fun. So I am not going to spend too many tears on a non-classic resist system lol.

[tmoneynegro]

I don't think Null has some crazy agenda for making the server into the dream of the VZTZ crowd while fucking everyone else over.


That is exactly his agenda. I've talked to him about it before. I say "Null why are you trying to completely alter the game and screw it up like this", he replies with "I think casters should be able to use all of their spells in PvP"

His methodology of balance is extremely ignorant because no PvP MMORPG on earth has spammable crowd control spells. DAoC has immunity timers on them and WoW has recast timers on them. For UO, you just spam trapped pouches and they become countered completely.

No actual game dev on earth will release a game like the one Null is trying to force on us.


While you were bluing it up with unicorns and rainbows, the guys at VZTZ were actually PvPing. Their experience with EMU and PVP is relevant and should not be discounted in ignorance.

This guy's posts are extremely fishy, every one of them is talking about how awesome TZVZ and it's staff were and his sig says the same thing. Is this Daxum posting anonymously? Who the hell is this guy?


I understand CC spells should be landing on naked people, but on the other hand - if they're landing on 150+mr resist people it'll definitely be garbage assist train on the snared guy with 0 skill involved.

Yep, only lame ass zergers want this system implemented because that's the only people it benefits.

[Harrison]

HALP, ROOTED

[Billbike]

Credibilty being questioned by tmoneynegro? Wow.....

I do not want VZTZ 5.0

I want classic PvP. Although if "classic" anything was perfect, there would have never been a patch on live.

I don't think CC spells should land every time, or even 1 in 10 on max resist. I just think we should trust the staff to tweak the resist system to best fit the server.

VZTZ was an attempt to recreate classic PvP. It wasn't perfect by any measure, but it was progress when there was no other form of classic eq PvP.

If The great Rogean did not have faith in Null's PvP experience, he wouldn't be on the staff. You are really questioning Rogean's judgment.

I will play eitherway.

[MakeYouMad]

VZTZ was an attempt to recreate classic PvP.

Saying VZTZ was an attempt at classic is just a complete lie. Daxum added all kinds of a stuff on a random whim such as warriors doing crippling blows for 1000 damage during classic, crit hits for all classes, caster interrupt rate capped at like 50%, etc.

It was an attempt to be the exact opposite of classic PvP. Now Null is trying to force all these TZVZ changes on everyone again.

[mourning]

I have the utmost confidence and faith in Null, Rogean, And Nilbog. Relax friends. Let it be tested, Let it be perfected.

[lindz]

I have the utmost confidence and faith in Null, Rogean, And Nilbog. Relax friends. Let it be tested, Let it be perfected.

They have already proven over the past 3 weeks that they have no intention of making this a classic experience. They have instituted two VERY NON-CLASSIC systems (resists and dynamic level range) and do not seem to be at all concerned in keeping with the original vision for the server. I don't think Rogean is willing (at this time, due to time irl time constraints) to put in the work needed to make this a classic pvp experience and Null obviously has his own vision.

[MakeYouMad]

They have already proven over the past 3 weeks that they have no intention of making this a classic experience. They have instituted two VERY NON-CLASSIC systems (resists and dynamic level range) and do not seem to be at all concerned in keeping with the original vision for the server. I don't think Rogean is willing (at this time, due to time irl time constraints) to put in the work needed to make this a classic pvp experience and Null obviously has his own vision.

In all fairness, the dynamic level system thing is just supposed to be a patch to fix immortal healing and doesn't actually change anything about PvP combat. The Null VZTZ resist system does to an extreme extent though.

[Billbike]

Saying VZTZ was an attempt at classic is just a complete lie. Daxum added all kinds of a stuff on a random whim such as warriors doing crippling blows for 1000 damage during classic, crit hits for all classes, caster interrupt rate capped at like 50%, etc.

It was an attempt to be the exact opposite of classic PvP. Now Null is trying to force all these TZVZ changes on everyone again.

I don't know what version of VZTZ you played, but I never saw ANY of what you mention here. Did you really play? Or just hear whispers about the evil PvP server from the people who got facerolled and rage quit?

You would have a valid argument if
1. What you said was true.
2. Daxum was working on r99 and not Null.
3. Rogean or this community would let anything stupid, like what you mentioned fly.

Quoting the great Rogean: Door is that way ------>

[Nirgon]

Yeah well root having a good chance of landing higher than 100 mr, forget it.

[juicedsixfo]

Looking forward to getting on tonight and casting some spells on my box to see what happens. This is what you all should be doing.

[Null]

That said I can see where people's disappointment is coming from. While people can argue the points at which spells full resist, partial resist, or masturbate til they bleed, I am pretty sure everyone agrees that most CC spells had a standard set max duration in pve or pvp, and either landed or didn't, and not some 6 tick max duration with partial resists causing shorter durations.


I just want to point out that the bold portion of your quote is a titanium client restriction and not something that I added in.

[mourning]

I just want to point out that the bold portion of your quote is a titanium client restriction and not something that I added in.

Is there any way around it? Or are you stuck with that?

[Null]

I can think of a few hacky ways to get around it but to do it the right way would probably require a client modification. I know nothing about doing client mods and the only people that I know who can do those are Secrets and Rogean.

That said, the resist system I am using works under the assumption of this limitation...so yea.

[Jirr]

I can think of a few hacky ways to get around it but to do it the right way would probably require a client modification. I know nothing about doing client mods and the only people that I know who can do those are Secrets and Rogean.

That said, the resist system I am using works under the assumption of this limitation...so yea.

It is my understanding that the titanium client uses different values to calculate resists than the classic-velious era client. Have you considered the possibility that a client patch might be necessary to make pvp resists perform adequately on a classic server?

[Null]

It is my understanding that the titanium client uses different values to calculate resists than the classic-velious era client. Have you considered the possibility that a client patch might be necessary to make pvp resists perform adequately on a classic server?

Resist calculations are handled on the server, typically so is duration but roots and snares in PvP seem to the exceptions to the rule.

[Tonomar]

I like the way stuff worked back on VZTZ, resist root with 200+ mr. All other spells should obviously scale differently, can't completely dick over casters. Let's not forget how ridiculously unbalanced EQ is, pals. Oh, and Hello Null-Pal.

[Remington]

To the server staff: Classic EQ is not balanced. The "About" page for this website says "The mission of the project is to create the classic feeling that many had during the early days of Everquest during those time periods". Save yourselves the pain and heartache, just make it classic. It will never be perfect, but if it is classic, there will be no complaints. It's called Project1999 for a reason. Blizzard has been trying to balance WoW for years with a massive staff. You likely will not achieve it during a single beta and with a handful of developers.

[Nirgon]

(Strong language not aimed at above)

There also aren't stupid shit like fucking talent trees in classic EQ or linear resist systems/arena that are examined under a microscope. WoW's problem is exactly the point that you could only bring a certain # into an equation or you needed a set # to do things because of hard coded shit like enrage timers and 2 minute cool downs. People playing EQ enjoyed their sandbox. People playing WoW get frazzled under their restrictions.

[MakeYouMad]

This is a very interesting poll

[Crenshinabon]

This poll is biased as hell. It is obvious without even reading the post which category the original poster wants everyone to pick.

Biased poll is useless.