IT Careers

[Rolando]

Looking to get into IT. Going to school for Networking, but unsure of what the end goal is. Any advice for someone trying to break into the field?

[Misto]

going to school is a waste of time and money.

[Extunarian]

Depends a lot on whether you're looking at a 2 year or 4 year program. A two year certificate or associates degree is nice to get because you can get a decent paying job to help finance the remaining 2 years, and I highly recommend focusing on getting that bachelors degree.

With a 2 year degree in Networking you could get something like (~40k salary):
http://jobview.monster.com/Network-Systems-Administrator-Job-Troy-MI-US-102549734.aspx

A 4 year degree would probably land you something along these lines (~60-70k)
http://jobview.monster.com/Network-Technical-Systems-Engineer-Job-Southfield-MI-US-103201102.aspx

Note that getting that 2nd job requires some experience. If you're in your junior year of a 4-year IT program you need need need to get a job in the field, even if it seems low paying. At my company we turn down folks who went to great schools and had great GPA's because they worked at taco bell (or worse, never had a job!) for there entire tenure in college. Real world experience means an easier time finding a job, a higher base salary, and of course, knowing what the hell you're doing on your first day.

If you are successful and enjoy the networking/infrastructure side and want to work for a company with a big hardware budget (like 50 million dollar data centers) you could look into Infrastructure Planning and Architecture (120k+)
http://jobview.monster.com/Infrastructure-Architect-Job-Grapevine-TX-US-101136064.aspx


One other thing, getting Cisco and Microsoft certified will help you get those early jobs before you have your degree. I don't recommend renewing them after you graduate unless your job wants you to, but they are a nice leg up in the beginning.

[Kelven]

Try going for a data center job, and learn about the different types.

Desktop support gets annoying as you're usually dealing with people who don't understand how to update a web browser, but it's somewhere to start..

for the love of god, don't do remote support ( over the phone or remote desktop )

Learn every little thing you can about networking.

and yes, school is incredibly over priced for what they teach you. Schools are just in the business of making money

[Honest]

going to school is a waste of time and money.

^This

Ive been a computer junkie all my life. A year before i got married i decided i would go to some trade school for tech (Specifically Kaplan), it was a huge waste of time and money. Right after i finished i got a job at a law office so the whole thing was a wash. Now im gonna be paying off student loans for pretty much nothing. I could have past the certification tests without the stupid school. Networking is a good field. If you already have knowledge on it, then i would suggest just getting the test prep book for whatever test you want to pass and study that. save you a shit load of time and money.

[Extunarian]

To the people saying that school is a waste of time and money, I agree that it can be if you're not going for a degree. If you are just trying to get a certificate, stay away from for-profit schools like Kaplan, University of Phoenix, DeVry that just want you to pay exorbitant amounts for what is essentially test prep. Do what Honest said and buy the book and teach yourself.

However I would also say that your career prospects are not nearly as bright if you just amass certificates. I don't know what your plans are, but I would strongly suggest putting in the time for a four year degree. It is over before you know it, and if you pick an in-state school and apply for financial aid you can keep costs down. I got out with 12k in student loans at 2% interest after 4.5 years.

So yes, school can be a waste of time and money, but so can any investment. If you're willing to commit the time and are smart about choosing the school/program the return in earning potential more than makes up for the cost.

[Klendathu]

What everyone has said here rings true, so i won't rehash it. But I will offer this: don't get into IT unless you really like doing it. The people that I know that are good at it are people that are passionate about it. They have extensive home networks, their spouses bitch at them for always having some "project" laying around in some sordid state of disarray.

Also, don't go to school thinking that you will immediately jump into being a Network Administrator somewhere, although your school might lead you to believe otherwise. No company in their right mind would trust their IT infrastructure to a newb fresh outta school. Get ready for an entry level job, tech support, answering the phone type thing. If you're lucky, you might get on with a smaller company if you're a bit flexible. Some of them need someone to do IT and data entry, or payroll clerk, etc. They cant train you on the IT stuff, but they can train you for what they need. Jobs like that tend to let you have a bit more leeway on the IT side.

[Asher]

From my experience Microsoft and Cisco Certifications are what will get you employed. The industry will expect you have these. If cash is limited I would recommend investing your money here instead of some random community college.

A+ and Net+ are pretty worthless IMO.

If you show up with just an associates or bachelors it will get your foot in the door but be prepared to start taking Microsoft and/or Cisco certs.



Asher

[Rogean]

What everyone has said here rings true, so i won't rehash it. But I will offer this: don't get into IT unless you really like doing it. The people that I know that are good at it are people that are passionate about it. They have extensive home networks, their spouses bitch at them for always having some "project" laying around in some sordid state of disarray.

Truth.

Best example is right in front of you.. Project 1999 is entirely a side project XD

[naez]

going to school is realistically the best way to get anybody to hire you at a decent salary, you need shiny pieces of paper that show you aren't lazy and somewhat know what you are doing.

I got comp sci degree no certs but landed cozy position offhandedly literally transferring files along the ftp and patching machines, and Im even late for work atm cuz i can wutdo a lil.

in reality I just google everything; learned nothing rly from skool so ya time+money waste in that sense.

[Tommy_Wiseau]

idk who hasnt figured out what a terrible treadmill IT work is

great career decision liek 20 years ago bro

[Rogean]

MCITP:SA/EA + VCP == $70k+

[Rogean]

idk who hasnt figured out what a terrible treadmill IT work is

great career decision liek 20 years ago bro

You're lucky you edited that post!

[Extunarian]

MCITP:SA/EA + VCP == $70k+

VCP...forgot about that one. With companies trying to both expand their IT infrastructure while lowering energy costs (or sometimes just bumping up against physical constraints) you can't go wrong with studying virtualization.

[quido]

What most people don't know is that IT Professionals don't actually know how to do anything. It's all automated - they just sit around and pretend to be busy.

[Diggles]

School network administrators are a perfect example of what Jeremy just said.

[Tommy_Wiseau]

MCITP:SA/EA + VCP == $70k+

mouse in lab cage thinks he's pablo escobar because his masters put cocaine in his water

[Diggles]

im pretty sure a mouse wouldnt know who Pablo Escobar is.

[Tommy_Wiseau]

im pretty sure a mouse wouldnt know who Pablo Escobar is.

mouse wouldnt know what pablo is

IT guy wouldnt know what money is

ie that was my point

[Rexxin]

Why go to school for IT? Everything you need to know is written in a Linksys router manual...

Sorry I hate IT guys...

[Rogean]

Why go to school for IT? Everything you need to know is written in a Linksys router manual...

Sorry I hate IT guys...

Maybe if you run a workgroup network of half a dozen computers lol

[Tommy_Wiseau]

sry for being mean big rogean obviously you enjoy your work and that is priceless

[Diggles]

I'm going to college for IT so i can be like Rogean!

[Awwalike]

lol white boy behind a desk all day get @ me:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:

I knew you were still alive Pac!

[Kabilos]

I can tell you from personal experience that if you are going to want to work in the IT field you don't necessarily need the certs. But on the other hand you don't need the degree either.

I've worked with those that have one over the other and some that have both. My personal experience I am getting more by having both a 2 year Networking degree and a 4 year Information Security degree and no certifications.

I would highly advise staying away from "For Profit" schools like DeVry, ITT Tech, Dunwoody, Phoenix, Capella and a slew of others.

If you are strongly considering a for profit school I would highly recommend you check out on Netflix "Schools for Profit" documentary first. The schools seem awesome at first but they soon lose their luster when you have signed the paper work.

If I could go back and do my college over, I would have went to a local college that was not "for profit". Granted now I have 2 degrees, I am also sitting on 90K in student loans. I could have done the same thing at the big state university for a fraction of the cost.

[Rexxin]

Maybe if you run a workgroup network of half a dozen computers lol

I know I know but I just struggle working with "IT" guys of several different levels of education and the good are few and far in-between, I usually end up doing my job and theirs....

[Rogean]

yea I hear you there.. I've seen enough guys come through our company (We are an IT Service Provider for GovEd, SMB, Hospice, etc.. on state contracts) that may have all the papers including degrees and certs, but in real world they turn out to be dumb as a brick and utterly useless as shit..

What annoys the shit out of me is all these guys come in with salaries sometimes even double mine just because I don't have papers saying I can do the job, yet I always end up doing their job.

I've been meaning to buckle down for years now to get MS and VMWare certs.. But try balancing working 60 hours a week with studying as well as trying to run Project 1999... ha ha ha....

[Rexxin]

What’s funny is all of the IT guys I interact with are working for the 2year Tech colleges, we do all the Classroom/Boardroom Automation, Programming etc. and have to deal with the guys they run through their school and give jobs to after graduation, it’s pretty funny when you have to setup a Computer Science College's network when you don’t even work for them.

[Clever]

The most important IT career advice I can give is to walk away early if it ever stops being fun. Nothing saps your life like an on-call career you hate, especially one that can rain pressure. I stuck around too long in datacenters I hated, working everything from Novell to MS to Cisco to UNIX engineering for everything from small shops to fortune 50s. Even with all the perks and the decent pay, and even though I really knew what I was doing, I looked up one day and realized that I was going to eat the business end of a gun if I didn't quit that afternoon. Gave 2 weeks, was escorted off the premises 45 minutes later, and have been able to breathe ever since.

If you enjoy it and have the skill, you'll likely love the career choice. If you don't enjoy it, no amount of skill in the world will make it worth doing, especially if you end up in an on-call position or one managing million-dollar-per-minute stuff for CTOs who can't even get your name right. I should have walked away when I first imagined doing so...on the second day of my first IT job. Instead of a college degree on my wall I have everything from a CNE to a CISSP, yet they're not worth the paper they're printed on.

Your results will certainly vary. Just remember that it's a niche career with niche training, especially if you're planning to take the common "skip college" advice.

[SearyxTZ]

Already been posted multiple times, but DO NOT go into IT unless you WANT to do it. You want to have passion for whatever you're doing with your career, or it won't last.

Regarding Networking: I considered it at one point and even picked up CCNA cert. I didn't like the work at all though. No amount of money - and network admins/security make pretty good bank btw - would have kept me in that field.

[Rolando]

Wow did not expect to see so much information. I like to thank you all for your advice so far. To fill you in here is how I have approached it so far.

- Started my first semester 6 weeks ago.
- Going to Community College so its not much of a money investment.
- I have an associates in broadcasting, so I don't care about a degree too much.
- Right now I'm just taking classes that help me for certs. Like right now I am in a A+ class. After this I want to take net+ and go from there.
- Still trying to get a feel for what aspect of IT interest me, so if I manage to get certs and really want to educate myself, then I will finish a degree. If not then I hope to find entry level work and start building certs on my own.
- I know most IT fans like to just buy a book and study on their own. I tried that and was having a bit of a rough time. Its not that I don't want to learn, but its nice to have lectures over what I read.
- I am looking for bottom of the mill position; I want to work my way up. I live in Michigan so jobs are tight, (where isn't it, really?) So getting that experience/foot in the door is rough. I know reading the book or having a cert doesn't mean you can do a job.

again thank you

[TheBlackSheep]

From my experience Microsoft and Cisco Certifications are what will get you employed. The industry will expect you have these. If cash is limited I would recommend investing your money here instead of some random community college.

A+ and Net+ are pretty worthless IMO.

If you show up with just an associates or bachelors it will get your foot in the door but be prepared to start taking Microsoft and/or Cisco certs.

Asher

Good stuff this. I'm an Enterprise Server/Network Engineer for a relatively large managed services firm. VMWare, MS and Cisco certifications + work experience are what we look for. Most especially MCITP and MCTS certs and CCNAs.

We put A+/Net+/Degrees at the bottom of the application pile.

Azorath

[TheBlackSheep]

Maybe if you run a workgroup network of half a dozen computers lol

Not to mention, any IT guy worth a damn wouldn't own a Linksys.

Azorath

[burkemi5]

Wow did not expect to see so much information. I like to thank you all for your advice so far. To fill you in here is how I have approached it so far.

- Started my first semester 6 weeks ago.
- Going to Community College so its not much of a money investment.
- I have an associates in broadcasting, so I don't care about a degree too much.
- Right now I'm just taking classes that help me for certs. Like right now I am in a A+ class. After this I want to take net+ and go from there.
- Still trying to get a feel for what aspect of IT interest me, so if I manage to get certs and really want to educate myself, then I will finish a degree. If not then I hope to find entry level work and start building certs on my own.
- I know most IT fans like to just buy a book and study on their own. I tried that and was having a bit of a rough time. Its not that I don't want to learn, but its nice to have lectures over what I read.
- I am looking for bottom of the mill position; I want to work my way up. I live in Michigan so jobs are tight, (where isn't it, really?) So getting that experience/foot in the door is rough. I know reading the book or having a cert doesn't mean you can do a job.

again thank you

michigan rocks

[Falisaty]

Not to mention, any IT guy worth a damn wouldn't own a Linksys.

Azorath

LOL cisco or go home am i right??

[joetheman]

Computer Science here. College was worth the money for me. Making 88k. I would say any kind of technology or healthcare field is never a waste of money since the jobs are always there.

[Feachie]

LOL cisco or go home am i right??

is this supposed to be ironic? you realize who produces linksys, don't you?

[Bazia]

is this supposed to be ironic? you realize who produces linksys, don't you?

Can't believe with comments like that people doubt your female.

Chicks I know always talk about linksys, specifically "attractive ones that grow weed".

[Ssleeve]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQo__sHJCR_OaobzOjIFiPph8OsKsUi9 MDWkNimSOU5uFLpMTYM

[TheBlackSheep]

is this supposed to be ironic? you realize who produces linksys, don't you?

Not really. Cisco doesn't "produce" anything Linksys. They just own Linksys and stick their bridge logo on it. It is still good ole Linksys consumer crap. Comparing Cisco enterprise-class hardware to anything Linksys is like comparing a real Ferrari to it's Hot Wheels version.

Azorath

[Feachie]

Can't believe with comments like that people doubt your female.

Chicks I know always talk about linksys, specifically "attractive ones that grow weed".

confirmed you actually do read my posts, you're just spitting the "has been ignored" line to be cool.

am i supposed to talk about makeup and boys with the rest of the girls on the forum? one of them has no clue what hygiene or body maintenance is, the other one is a floozie. i don't even play anymore, so fuck you buddy :)

and i never said i grew weed. ever.

Not really. Cisco doesn't "produce" anything Linksys. They just own Linksys and stick their bridge logo on it. It is still good ole Linksys consumer crap. Comparing Cisco enterprise-class hardware to anything Linksys is like comparing a real Ferrari to it's Hot Wheels version.

Azorath

i realize this. but don't quote me out of context. what he said was ironic. correct?

linksys is the toyota to cisco's lexus.

[deathgirl]

and i never said i grew weed. ever.



u go awn and awn about how to grow weed, about what different types are like to smoke, u smoke it, you help people grow the stuff for a living, but when someone suggests you grow weed, u get mad cus ur obvs the untouched, pure anti-drug virgin saint

[TheBlackSheep]

Not really. Cisco doesn't "produce" anything Linksys. They just own Linksys and stick their bridge logo on it. It is still good ole Linksys consumer crap. Comparing Cisco enterprise-class hardware to anything Linksys is like comparing a real Ferrari to it's Hot Wheels version.

Azorath


i realize this. but don't quote me out of context. what he said was ironic. correct?

linksys is the toyota to cisco's lexus.

Quote you out of context? You stated that Cisco produces Linksys, in effect making the implication they were of the same caliber. At least that is what I took from it. Cisco produces Linksys about as much as HP produces Compaq.

Anyway, no - it isn't that ironic, since most people who are involved with Cisco enterprise products on a professional basis know that Cisco is still Cisco and Linksys is still Linksys. Big difference. Just because it may say "Linksys by Cisco" on the box and have the Golden Gate Bridge logo on it, doesn't really matter.

Azorath

[TheBlackSheep]

Wow did not expect to see so much information. I like to thank you all for your advice so far. To fill you in here is how I have approached it so far.

- Started my first semester 6 weeks ago.
- Going to Community College so its not much of a money investment.
- I have an associates in broadcasting, so I don't care about a degree too much.
- Right now I'm just taking classes that help me for certs. Like right now I am in a A+ class. After this I want to take net+ and go from there.
- Still trying to get a feel for what aspect of IT interest me, so if I manage to get certs and really want to educate myself, then I will finish a degree. If not then I hope to find entry level work and start building certs on my own.
- I know most IT fans like to just buy a book and study on their own. I tried that and was having a bit of a rough time. Its not that I don't want to learn, but its nice to have lectures over what I read.
- I am looking for bottom of the mill position; I want to work my way up. I live in Michigan so jobs are tight, (where isn't it, really?) So getting that experience/foot in the door is rough. I know reading the book or having a cert doesn't mean you can do a job.

again thank you

I wanted to address a couple of these comments specifically, because I didn't have the luxury of someone who had been there when I was starting out.

First, going to a technical college is better than going to a university in regards to IT education, unless you make a career out of being a professional student. Don't laugh, I know a lot of people who do that. They don't get the job they want handed to them on a silver platter, so they simply go back to school for some other "degree" like game design or graphics design, knowing they can always just default on their loans if they still don't have the job they want in 10 years. Don't get me started on that bullshit.

Secondly, don't worry too much about degrees and work towards getting all the MCITP/MCTS/Cisco/VMWare/Hyper-V certs that you can get. While going to school, look at getting an entry level IT position somewhere, maybe even an internship. I'm on the Advisory Board for a local ITT Tech, so trust me when I tell you, even with all your pretty pieces of paper, you will be overlooked by employers in favor of someone who has the same amount of paper with any additional on-the-job experience.

Third, the days of the "Jack of All Trades" IT guy getting a good gig are fading, unless the limit of your career aspiration is Geek Squad. These days, teams of specialized engineers are becoming the norm, most especially in larger firms. Ground yourself in all you can, Exchange, SQL ...etc, but don't be afraid to specialize.

I've been in IT for 18 years. Half my life. I did other things, sure, but I always ended up back in IT because it was where the money was and I was good at it. Since 1991, when I blew up my Father's Tandy TL 1000 at the age of 15 to now, Enterprise Server/Network Engineering with an emphasis on virtualization, Cisco solutions, enterprise networking (structured cabling and fiber) and more recently, disaster recovery, for a relatively accomplished managed service provider. Before that, I spent 10 years in the public sector as a Digital Evidence CSI/Computer Forensic Examiner/CEH for a large law enforcement agency.

And guess what, I originally went to college for archeology and have never had any formal technical training in any technical college or university. Ever. It's all certs and blowing up shit (aka "borking it") and then fixing it, for the most part, on my own. That's it. So don't ever let anyone tell you that you HAVE to go to a university/technical college to get a degree to be successful in IT. But on the other hand, I will most definitely echo what others have said:

You have to have the passion for it, or you will be miserable.

Oh, and Google is an engineer's best friend. It's the elephant in the room in IT. No one wants to admit they use it, but everyone does.

Azorath

[Diggles]

im glad someone else uses the term "bork"

[TheBlackSheep]

im glad someone else uses the term "bork"

Every day. That and "grenaded". Sometimes in the same sentence. In fact, I told another engineer today, "That piece of shit PowerEdge host grenaded again last night, threw an ASR, and then spewed its VMs all over the other nodes, borking the SQL cluster in the process."

Good stuff.

Azorath

[Mcbard]

Oh, and Google is an engineer's best friend. It's the elephant in the room in IT. No one wants to admit it does 40% of their job for them, but it does.

FTFY. :)

[Mcbard]

Also, maybe I'm insane but I see pretty much the opposite of what everyone else is stating in this thread. When I began getting into the field about 7 years ago certs were everything. The only degree most universities even offered were generic CS degrees that 9/10 turned out nothing but dirty socially inept code monkeys. Certs seem to hold half the weight they once did, and experience obviously being the de facto numero uno most important thing you can have on your side, most employers now are also wanting 2, usually 4 year degrees minimum for most jobs.

I tried to go the work and acquire my MCSE/CCNA straight out of highschool route in order to get into the field, until 3 years later I realized I'm only making half the money the guy who has his own office and is sitting around doing mostly nothing managing our database is getting because he has a 4 year C.S. degree. It didn't take much for me to go back to school before it was too late and work on my own B.S.

In regards to knowledge gained from what I've experienced, most of it is going to come from hands-on experience, and figuring stuff out yourself in real-world or at home situations. This is why you need to have a passion for the field. College is just going to do what it always has: give you a baseline, and a well rounded extremely overpriced education.

Degrees and experience seem to be becoming the norm for requirements when starting off in I.T. certificates are the pieces of paper that give you a slight edge over the rest of the field and possibly get you a slightly higher salary not the other way around.

I would wager the people in this thread telling you not to go to school have been in the field for 10+ years, have a solid work history and a plethora of certs. That shit doesn't really fly for most young kids coming out of school trying to make it into I.T. with little to no experience, no degree, and usually no certs. Go to school, be gainfully employed via co-ops/internships and get what you need to make yourself attractive to companies.

[Bohab]

Enjoyed using my Tandy growing up... messed around with computers more so as I got older. Nearly failed out of high school... got a 2 year degree high off my ass... landed a Jr. Admin job at 22 and put in a couple years of experience. At 24 I landed a Sr. Admin position. Streamlined and polished my environment so now I enjoy my free time at work with a little eq. Needless to say, I have no student loans to pay off now (only 2 yr degree), married, home... yadda yadda, IT worked out great for me and I barely tried. Just had to follow my interest. No 4yr degree, no certs (besides A+)... Just know what you're doing, enjoy it and act like a decent person.

[Klendathu]

School is fine, certs are fine. Try to avoid committing yourself to spending too much money, though. It's tough to start paying back student loans when you're making $12 an hour jocking a helpdesk (salary is figurative, don't know what HD jobs pay these days). Just bear in mind that the degree and certs help you out in the beginning. Once you've been in the field for 3+ years, it comes down to what you can put on your resume, to what you KNOW and what you can DO. If I'm choosing between hiring someone who's got some piece of paper saying they know Exchange, and someone who can tell me step by step how they built a new backend Exchange server for their company, I'm going with option B every single time.

Cisco owns Linksys now, but it's not like Linksys got better for it. IMO their products actually went downhill for some reason after they started getting stamped with the Cisco logo. All that was just a cash grab for Cisco. But honestly, comparing the two is like apples and oranges. It's not the same thing, it's not in the ball park, it's not even the same league. (it's barely even the same fucking sport, to finish the PF reference). Cisco=Enterprise, Linksys=SOHO, generally.

[Rogean]

If you do anything more than helpdesk get used to being on salary and pulling long hours whenever needed for free without compensation (which can be more or less depending on your job and how much of an ass your manager(s) are)

[TheBlackSheep]

If you do anything more than helpdesk get used to being on salary and pulling long hours whenever needed for free without compensation (which can be more or less depending on your job and how much of an ass your manager(s) are)

This. IT people above help desk level are generally well raped in regards to long hours and compensation. I get paid for 80 hours every pay period, but I average 100-130.

Short of the perks, that is one of the main things I miss about the public sector. Actual overtime pay. I was given a choice between overtime and comp time. Being on call basically 24/7, I milked it every chance I got and made quite a bit of money over the 10 years. Not to mention, it was nothing for me to roll up 300+ hours in vacation and comp time and then take off for a month straight and hit the sea for extended periods of time, in effect making MORE money, while getting paid at home. Good stuff.

Since being in the private sector, I'm looking at a maximum of 3 weeks of vacation (after 5 years). No comp time and no overtime. Bleh.

Azorath

[Feachie]

Quote you out of context? You stated that Cisco produces Linksys, in effect making the implication they were of the same caliber. At least that is what I took from it. Cisco produces Linksys about as much as HP produces Compaq.

Anyway, no - it isn't that ironic, since most people who are involved with Cisco enterprise products on a professional basis know that Cisco is still Cisco and Linksys is still Linksys. Big difference. Just because it may say "Linksys by Cisco" on the box and have the Golden Gate Bridge logo on it, doesn't really matter.

Azorath

you're obviously not intelligent enough to get my analogy, or you're just too ignorant. i'll elaborate for you; the toyota motor corporation owns many smaller brands. tmc obviously owns toyota, but they also own lexus (as well as hino, daihatsu, etc). toyota is still toyota, lexus is still lexus. as in the profits that they make, they keep.

anyway, are you saying that these vehicles are produced with equal care, quality, and workmanship? i would think it's plain to see which of their products is the higher end product meant for the more discerning customer. much like cisco products, amirite?

as for irony, i would call it pretty ironic for a lexus driver to say he would never drive a toyota. sorry.

[TheBlackSheep]

you're obviously not intelligent enough to get my analogy, or you're just too ignorant. i'll elaborate for you; the toyota motor corporation owns many smaller brands. tmc obviously owns toyota, but they also own lexus (as well as hino, daihatsu, etc). toyota is still toyota, lexus is still lexus. as in the profits that they make, they keep.

anyway, are you saying that these vehicles are produced with equal care, quality, and workmanship? i would think it's plain to see which of their products is the higher end product meant for the more discerning customer. much like cisco products, amirite?

as for irony, i would call it pretty ironic for a lexus driver to say he would never drive a toyota. sorry.

No need to act like a bitch. I'm intelligent enough to understand your analogy. Perhaps you don't understand what a subsidiary is. I shall use two other examples, one I have already mentioned.

HP. Compaq. Both different companies with different engineering and manufacturing processes. HP buys Compaq. HP is still HP and Compaq is still Compaq. The only similarity is on paper.

Chrysler. Jeep (AMC). Both different companies with different engineering and manufacturing processes. Chrysler buys AMC. Chrysler is still Chrysler and Jeep is still Jeep. The only similarity is on paper.

Cisco. Linksys. Both different companies with different engineering and manufacturing processes. Cisco produces enterprise class hardware. Linksys produces consumer based networking hardware. Cisco is superb. Linksys sucks. Cisco buys Linksys. Cisco is still the top of the line. Linksys still sucks. The only similarity is on paper.

Again, the reason why I don't find your comment ironic is because of the context in which it was used. Anyone who has ever been remotely involved with Cisco and Linksys on a professional level knows that "Linksys by Cisco" is still the same shitty Linksys it has always been, regardless of the fact that Cisco is it's parent company.

So your comment "you do know Linksys is produced by Cisco right?" is not exactly accurate because they are still two different companies with two different engineering and manufacturing processes. The only similarity between the two is that Cisco Systems Inc. owns them both.

Azorath

[Feachie]

*sigh* you honestly don't think sharing of technology or engineers doesn't happen? i've already said that no, they don't get built in the same plant, but you're too ignorant to realize that IP sharing does happen. i'm not saying that by cisco acquiring linksys means they're top notch hardware, because they aren't.

i'm not arguing this with you any further.

[TheBlackSheep]

*sigh* you honestly don't think sharing of technology or engineers doesn't happen? i've already said that no, they don't get built in the same plant, but you're too ignorant to realize that IP sharing does happen. i'm not saying that by cisco acquiring linksys means they're top notch hardware, because they aren't.

i'm not arguing this with you any further.

Oh, they most definitely share technology, Feach. But it is a bit more complicated than that. It depends on the subsidiary and the parent specifically.

Cisco and Linksys are apples and oranges, you know that. Consumers aren't going to put Fortigates, Catalyst switches and UCS blades in their homes. Fortune 500 companies aren't going to put 5 port switches and DSL modem/router combos in their data centers. So even though I'm sure Cisco and Linksys engineers have had quite a few sit downs, the sharing of technology and engineers probably isn't as far-reaching as one would think because of the difference in the class of products and the requirements of the technology inside them.

Azorath

[xshayla701]

am i supposed to talk about makeup and boys with the rest of the girls on the forum? one of them has no clue what hygiene or body maintenance is, the other one is a floozie.

i dont talk about makeup n boys, you forgot about me feach :( unless i'm the floozie??? in which case, carry on

[purest]

...so they simply go back to school for some other "degree" like game design or graphics design, knowing they can always just default on their loans if they still don't have the job they want in 10 years. Don't get me started on that bullshit.

student loans are non-defaultable, breh, so save the self-righteous finger wagging for when you actually wtf yer talkin' about

[TheBlackSheep]

student loans are non-defaultable, breh, so save the self-righteous finger wagging for when you actually wtf yer talkin' about

Student Loans are defaultable. They just can't be discharged through bankruptcy. Pro-Tip: Next time spend 15 seconds and do a little research before hitting "Submit Reply". It could very easily mean the difference between a being a smart ass or looking like a dumb ass.

Azorath

[Kabilos]

Not to mention, any IT guy worth a damn wouldn't own a Linksys.

Azorath

What if you owned it only so you could flash the firmware to put whatever you wanted to on it :p

[TheBlackSheep]

What if you owned it only so you could flash the firmware to put whatever you wanted to on it :p

There are always exceptions! Did you drop some Cisco IOS on it? ;)

Azorath

[Kabilos]

I don't remember what flavor of something I threw on an old box. I've since gone to a tight little Untangle box that sits in front of my Firebox :P

Which is also a project id like to throw a gallon of gas on and throw the match at it..

[Gwence]

Quote you out of context? You stated that Cisco produces Linksys, in effect making the implication they were of the same caliber. At least that is what I took from it. Cisco produces Linksys about as much as HP produces Compaq.

Anyway, no - it isn't that ironic, since most people who are involved with Cisco enterprise products on a professional basis know that Cisco is still Cisco and Linksys is still Linksys. Big difference. Just because it may say "Linksys by Cisco" on the box and have the Golden Gate Bridge logo on it, doesn't really matter.

Azorath

enterprise grade hardware is always going to be better than consumer grade not just with routers, it's not really fair to compare the 2. Most people aren't dropping $500+ for a router in there house lol.

[Awwalike]

enterprise grade hardware is always going to be better than consumer grade not just with routers, it's not really fair to compare the 2. Most people aren't dropping $500+ for a router in there house lol.

bam.

[TheBlackSheep]

enterprise grade hardware is always going to be better than consumer grade not just with routers, it's not really fair to compare the 2. Most people aren't dropping $500+ for a router in there house lol.

Keep reading Gwence, I pointed that out in a later post. ;)

Then again, my home network is better than most small businesses, heh.

Azorath

[TheBlackSheep]

I don't remember what flavor of something I threw on an old box. I've since gone to a tight little Untangle box that sits in front of my Firebox :P

Which is also a project id like to throw a gallon of gas on and throw the match at it..

I know exactly what you mean. I got away from that after I had a little IPCop box go up in flames.

Azorath

[Diggles]

I have a cisco that didn't cost more than 100 bucks, works like a champ

[TheBlackSheep]

I have a cisco that didn't cost more than 100 bucks, works like a champ

Admittedly, most of my stuff I "acquired" here and there from cohorts in the business, from infrastructure upgrades. I mean, what are you going to say when a buddy calls you up and says "Hey, remember that money I owe you? Well, we had a 6108 with a bad port and HP sent us replacement with a couple of SX GBICs, but we're going with a E4200 Series Modular instead. Its new in the box. You want it?"

Azorath

[burkemi5]

Admittedly, most of my stuff I "acquired" here and there from cohorts in the business, from infrastructure upgrades. I mean, what are you going to say when a buddy calls you up and says "Hey, remember that money I owe you? Well, we had a 6108 with a bad port and HP sent us replacement with a couple of SX GBICs, but we're going with a E4200 Series Modular instead. Its new in the box. You want it?"

Azorath

http://i.imgur.com/VxvY0.jpg

[purest]

Student Loans are defaultable.

Lets just take a look at your original quote which suggests that people can somehow discharge or be able to escape their student loans, a claim that is 100% false.

...so they simply go back to school for some other "degree" like game design or graphics design, knowing they can always just default on their loans if they still don't have the job they want in 10 years. Don't get me started on that bullshit.

Miss a few student loans:

-Wage garnishment by a court order
-Suspension of state professional licenses
-Garnishment of social security/disability income
-Withholding IRS tax refunds

There is no statute of limitations, you WILL pay your student loans, even if it has to be deducted from your social security checks or those of your cosigner

You will never escape your student loans or be able to discharge them.

Pro-Tip: Next time spend 15 seconds and do a little research before hitting "Submit Reply". It could very easily mean the difference between a being a smart ass or looking like a dumb ass.

[TheBlackSheep]

student loans are non-defaultable, breh, so save the self-righteous finger wagging for when you actually wtf yer talkin' about

Student Loans are defaultable. They just can't be discharged through bankruptcy. Pro-Tip: Next time spend 15 seconds and do a little research before hitting "Submit Reply". It could very easily mean the difference between a being a smart ass or looking like a dumb ass.

Azorath

Lets just take a look at your original quote which suggests that people can somehow discharge or be able to escape their student loans, a claim that is 100% false.



Miss a few student loans:

-Wage garnishment by a court order
-Suspension of state professional licenses
-Garnishment of social security/disability income
-Withholding IRS tax refunds

There is no statute of limitations, you WILL pay your student loans, even if it has to be deducted from your social security checks or those of your cosigner

You will never escape your student loans or be able to discharge them.

Pro-Tip: Next time spend 15 seconds and do a little research before hitting "Submit Reply". It could very easily mean the difference between a being a smart ass or looking like a dumb ass.

What the hell are you going on about?

I never said students could escape their student loans, I said they would drag out schooling with multiple degree paths until they got a job they wanted, knowing they would more than likely just default when the loans ran out.

You thought you would be Captain Smart Ass and said that student loans were "non-defaultable". Which is bullshit. They are defaultable. Not paying = defaulting.

You just proved that your original statement was wrong. Did you even know what defaulting was before you finally decided to hit up Wikipedia before your last post?

Azorath

[purest]

lol, i'll just leave this here

...so they simply go back to school for some other "degree" like game design or graphics design, knowing they can always just default on their loans if they still don't have the job they want in 10 years. Don't get me started on that bullshit.

you clearly have no idea how student loans work, as shown in the above statement in which you clearly imply that supposed "friends" of yours can simply rack up student debt, and then somehow escape them later

yes, your debt goes into default status when you don't pay it, in which case:

1. the fed gov't pays the full amount + interest to your loan servicer
2. the gov't sends a debt collection agency like GRC on you
3. GRC adds 25% collection fee + 28% commission to the loan
4. GRC gets their fucking money back, whether its by taking money from your paycheck or social security or tax refunds until they are paid. There is no statute of limitations, you WILL pay GRC.

So your little story about being able to go to school and just "default" is 100% pure, unadulterated bullshit.

I suggest looking at Wikipedia for 15 seconds before you make another retarded post and get logic'd by the purist again.

[Gwence]

there is forebearance and deferrment options available if you use federal aid, as long as you talk to FASFA you can keep pushing it back for years, but eventually yes you will have to pay it back

but going after some kind of federal loan shouldn't be your first action imo, there are pell grants you can get which almost fully cover expenses nowadays and you do not have to pay those back, if you need some extra money on top of those then go after loans.

[TheBlackSheep]

lol, i'll just leave this here

you clearly have no idea how student loans work, as shown in the above statement in which you clearly imply that supposed "friends" of yours can simply rack up student debt, and then somehow escape them later

yes, your debt goes into default status when you don't pay it, in which case:

1. the fed gov't pays the full amount + interest to your loan servicer
2. the gov't sends a debt collection agency like GRC on you
3. GRC adds 25% collection fee + 28% commission to the loan
4. GRC gets their fucking money back, whether its by taking money from your paycheck or social security or tax refunds until they are paid. There is no statute of limitations, you WILL pay GRC.

So your little story about being able to go to school and just "default" is 100% pure, unadulterated bullshit.

I suggest looking at Wikipedia for 15 seconds before you make another retarded post and get logic'd by the purist again.

You really are bent on being an Internet Hero today aren't you. We all know what the effects of defaulting are, Captain America. You keep repeating them as if we don't know what could happen. We get it. We know. The meat and potatoes here is that you made an incorrect assumption, ran your neck without thinking about what you were saying (ie... "non-defaultable"), and are now trying to ballerina dance around your embarrassment by repeatedly referencing the effects of defaulting.

LOGIC dictates that if you had a clear understanding of the term as it was used, you would not have donned your cape, taken to the air, and said student loans are "non-defaultable". Of course they are defaultable, you just get your ass handed to you later.

What I was referencing are people who get degrees, but can't get the job they want ("Help Desk? Hell no! Blizzard will hire me with my new shiny game design degree, right!?"), so they go back to school to keep from having to pay on their loans, accepting the fact that there is a possibility they will default. It is a cycle I have seen several people do. It is bullshit because it is irresponsible and needlessly incurs more debt due to degrees that will more than likely not serve them conducively in their preferred career path.

Anyway, you're going to read what you want to read, with your super-duper logic skills, and I don't want to see this thread get tossed into the cesspool that is RnF, so back to the topic at hand.

Azorath

[purest]

Didn't read but assume it's just more backpeddling.

...so they simply go back to school for some other "degree" like game design or graphics design, knowing they can always just default on their loans if they still don't have the job they want in 10 years. Don't get me started on that bullshit.

your "friends" of yours can't just rack up debt and somehow escape it later, they will pay it back whether it goes into default or not, so your "point" is completely retarded

try again

[Tommy_Wiseau]

Didn't read but assume it's just more backpeddling.



your "friends" of yours can't just rack up debt and somehow escape it later, they will pay it back whether it goes into default or not, so your "point" is completely retarded

try again

http://i51.tinypic.com/2ces1ee.jpg

[Zer0sFamiliar]

kinda going off topic from the pointless pissing contest

but ive been reading most of this thread with interest and im curious to see if i have summed up everyone's excellent opinions

getting certs as quickly as possible seems to be the main point
is that right?

[TheBlackSheep]

kinda going off topic from the pointless pissing contest

but ive been reading most of this thread with interest and im curious to see if i have summed up everyone's excellent opinions

getting certs as quickly as possible seems to be the main point
is that right?

Ya, sorry about the piss everywhere. Yes. To get in and get going in IT relatively quickly, certs + a bit of work experience (if possible), is the way to go. Once you're in, it gets easier. I can't speak for other companies, but we reimburse you if you take any Cisco or MS certification courses and pass while employed with us.

Azorath

[Zer0sFamiliar]

Ya, sorry about the piss everywhere. Yes. To get in and get going in IT relatively quickly, certs + a bit of work experience (if possible), is the way to go. Once you're in, it gets easier. I can't speak for other companies, but we reimburse you if you take any Cisco or MS certification courses and pass.

Azorath


Thank you, how long do those courses take, and(incoming possibly retarded question) do the certifications have expiration dates? cause maybe courses change and or what they teach in the courses?

[TheBlackSheep]

Thank you, how long do those courses take, and(incoming possibly retarded question) do the certifications have expiration dates? cause maybe courses change and or what they teach in the courses?

Not a retarded question at all. The courses don't really have a set duration unless you are taking it at technical school or organized certification course. I took most of mine after reading the books and participating in some study groups with some fellow engineers that I work with. We all took the exams on our own time, which was immediately for some, and a few months later for others.

Cisco certification paths generally expire after 3 years. MS certs expire or become inactive when Microsoft discontinues and/or significantly upgrades an aspect of their technology enough that they feel it requires a re-cert.

All you need to know about MS Certs (scroll down to the lifespan subsection):

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/certification/cert-get-started.aspx#tab3

Cisco:

http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/le3/learning_career_certifications_and_learning_paths_ home.html

VMWare:

http://mylearn.vmware.com/portals/certification/

Azorath

[Zer0sFamiliar]

Not a retarded question at all. The courses don't really have a set duration unless you are taking it at technical school or organized certification course. I took most of mine after reading the books and participating in some study groups with some fellow engineers that I work with. We all took the exams on our own time, which was immediately for some, and a few months later for others.

Cisco certification paths generally expire after 3 years. MS certs expire or become inactive when Microsoft discontinues and/or significantly upgrades an aspect of their technology enough that they feel it requires a re-cert.

All you need to know about MS Certs (scroll down to the lifespan subsection):

http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/certification/cert-get-started.aspx#tab3

Cisco:

http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/le3/learning_career_certifications_and_learning_paths_ home.html

VMWare:

http://mylearn.vmware.com/portals/certification/

Azorath


Awesome, thank you

[Aenor]

If you have your CCNA or are well on your way to it and are looking for a job in Atlanta or Seattle, PM me.

[stayne]

Find an IT job at a hospital. Trust me...you don't need a degree. Go through a hiring agency.

[moklianne]

Be ready to donate a lot of time or take a job making jack for a couple of years, since the industry is mainly looking for experience first, then bachelors degrees in IT, then certs.

The only certs worth anything are the Cisco ones and VMware ones. Since network security will increasingly be a problem, the CISSP (and related) is sought after as well and will continue to be.

On another note, programmers are still pretty heavily sought after, even with all of the outsourcing to developing nations lately.

[Proven Guilty]

Not to mention, any IT guy worth a damn wouldn't own a Linksys.

Azorath

lolwut

DD-WRT

[Proven Guilty]

What everyone has said here rings true, so i won't rehash it. But I will offer this: don't get into IT unless you really like doing it. The people that I know that are good at it are people that are passionate about it. They have extensive home networks, their spouses bitch at them for always having some "project" laying around in some sordid state of disarray.



To add a lot of the advice, work on virtualization above all if you want to get your feet wet in the industry. You will learn more through virtualized servers than through any other channel right now. Also, don't stick to one technology. There are several platforms you can learn on, for free, using even a spare computer or retired business hand-me-down.

VMWare
Citrux XenCenter
Linux KVM

etc, etc

If you can get comfortable with staging, installing multiple operating systems on different levels of hardware, and learning how to harness everything they have to offer (storage, number crunching, DNS, databases, security, etc) then the sky is the limit. Find out what seems to be the most entertaining. You'll know once you find yourself working 12 hour weekend shifts for free as an intern while going to school.

I never went to school, and wish I did. With 14 years of experience, I find myself in Rogean's shoes of usually doing others' job without having the paper to back my own skills.

Also, get more into Linux and BSD than Microsoft products. The world is evolving and even Microsoft is adopting a lot of linux technologies. Apple products are based on BSD and apply very closely to Linux. Ubuntu or Mint are great desktop replacements that will allow you to get some real world exposure, and not be SO much to learn that you can't even use your computer for doing homework on. (Debian based OS), but don't let me stop you from compiling linuxfromscratch on that old Pentium2 400Mhz box you've had in the closet all these years. :D

Edit: Forgot to mention, don't shy away from Microsoft products either. You can download 160+ day free trials of their latest and greatest. Install a SBS2011 server, setup a POP3 connector and a smartmail host and play around with a faux business email / etc. Register a domain and just go to town. Don't shy away from any one technology just because someone thinks one route will be better for you. Just find what you're enjoying working on, and roll with it.

Lastly, I think people that progress their development/programming/scripting background have a much better transition as well as ability to learn than those that just stick with hardware/software support.

[Brawk]

Get accounting degree
Get accounting job
Work 3-4 years
Learn financial accounting products
Move to an IT support role maintaining those products
Earn $200k+

Every company has an accounting department and most prefer support be on site. Not in some 3rd world country.

[dusk883]

If you have people skills in the IT world, there is no limit to the amount of money you can make in the field.

[Klendathu]

Ah, Information Technology: Employing the socially inept for decades.

[visage]

Lets just take a look at your original quote which suggests that people can somehow discharge or be able to escape their student loans, a claim that is 100% false.



Miss a few student loans:

-Wage garnishment by a court order
-Suspension of state professional licenses
-Garnishment of social security/disability income
-Withholding IRS tax refunds

There is no statute of limitations, you WILL pay your student loans, even if it has to be deducted from your social security checks or those of your cosigner

You will never escape your student loans or be able to discharge them.

Pro-Tip: Next time spend 15 seconds and do a little research before hitting "Submit Reply". It could very easily mean the difference between a being a smart ass or looking like a dumb ass.

LOL Purest has owned you!

[Supreme]

Decide if you want to be a programmer or non-programmer. From there decide if you want to persue the degree or non-degree.

I can tell you from experience what the difference a non-degreed non-programmer IT professional can expect versus a degreed non-programmer IT professional.


Non-Degree

Even at your BEST skill level without a degree you can expect to top out as a Senior/Lead<Insert Special Title>. This is because management wants to be able to showcase their IT staff and having a non-degreed employee representing the management of the IT group can be a detriment to business.

However with that being said with the right certs you can make well over $100k+. Sometimes, depending on tasks you are performing, you may even end up on $75/hour contract work. This is true for RCDD (http://www.bicsi.org/rcdd/http://www.bicsi.org/rcdd/), CCNA (http://www.cisco.com/web/learning/le3/le2/le0/le9/learning_certification_type_home.html) and MCITP (http://www.microsoft.com/learning/en/us/certification/mcitp.aspx). Bottom line for non-degreed is that you will have to work HARDER for your money because the industry work force evolves and grows with younger and better educated people each year.


Degreed - BS/BA

With a degree you can expect to end up at some point with a managment job. This assumes two important points. First weather or not you are competent in your field and second weather or not you can manage people. However even with a degree you will be looking at 5-8 years of experience before even being considered for a management job. In basic terms you will be doing all the work of a non-degreed IT professional but with the opprotunity to advance into managment. Having certifications is a defining extra when employers are considering qualified canidates but there is no absolute need.

Graduate Degree

If you ever want to be a VP of IT or a IT Executive (CTO etc..) you will need to get the graduate degree. Although do not persue this degree unless you are capable and desire this kind of role.



For the OP i would say start at the bottom. Do quality work for your employer. Build up a quality list of references and when the chances present itself have letters of recommendation written on your behalf. Couple that with certifications, continuing education and within 5 years you can expect to make nice living.

Remember that once you are in IT the industry is volitale and constantly changing. Having a strong network of IT professionals to bounce ideas/questions off of is extremely important. Almost as important as certifications/education. You must continue your education and learn the latest changes (ie VMware 3.5>4.0>5.0, SCCM vs Altiris, Exchange, Directory Services, etc...) You must also always be prepared to take the next step "up". IT staff are usually the first to be cut/laid off when budgets get tight so save $$$ and be prepared for that as well.

Certs: Useful on paper means that you really learn alot of what you get the cert for while doing work in the field. Useful in career means that the certification presents you with information that you may not encounter in a routine work environment. It also means that it will directly impact your salary offers/requirements.

A+ (useful on paper)
Network + (useful in career)
Security + (useful in career)
MCITP:Server Admin (extremely useful in career)
VCP (useful on paper)
RCDD (extremely useful in career)
CCNA (extremely useful in career)


Hope this helps.

[stormlord]

School is mostly a complete waste of time. Businesses are more impressed if you have a job that uses a mouse. Having friends that work in the industry is a big bonus. Technically, learning all of this would be quicker if businesses could hand off their odd jobs to students. The catch for them is that they wouldn't have to pay the students and the students would get experience. This is what school should be.

9/10 a business will hire the guy that has real world experience, even small amounts. I was talking with my bro who works in the field and he routinely says that the college kids underperform. They go out of their way to find someone who has experience in the field. Personally, I think THE PERSON also is important. Too many college kids think that college is all they need. It reflects badly on them. People who have real world experience show you that they mean business and aren't just coasting on their parent's college money.

Be willing to work for long periods for years with little to no pay at all. Be prepared when nobody notices. Don't be personal. Don't moan. Just keep working hard. Eventually, you'll get credit. That's what it takes.

School is about everyone winning. But that's not how the real world works. I think this is the biggest reason that school fails. We need a stronger partnership between business and education.

[Ghaniba]

For me, back in '95 I looked into what the local university was teaching. They were teaching archaic technology, and I had no interest in learning that, being a punkass kid. I took a job repairing computers at a local shop, thinking I knew LOTS about computers.

I knew nothing.

Now, 15+ years later, I work with Cisco, VMware & enterprise storage solutions. If I'd like to go for my degree, the company would pay for it for me, 100%.

I honestly believe that at that point, I still made the right decision. Today, I know I have basically hit the limit of where I can go, without that degree.

For someone entering the field today? Get a degree & get a desktop support role at a large company. Do a good job and the people you're working with will see that.

The one big comment that others haven't mentioned- Don't be afraid to switch jobs. That's really the only way to get salary jumps, for the most part. A couple jobs I switched I about doubled my salary.

Dave aka Ghan

[Kabilos]

The one big comment that others haven't mentioned- Don't be afraid to switch jobs. That's really the only way to get salary jumps, for the most part. A couple jobs I switched I about doubled my salary.

Dave aka Ghan

Someone once told me something and I take it to heart with every job.

Each job is a stepping stone to the next. You are a mercenary who works for whoever pays the most.

Don't burn bridges, but don't get yourself in a rut and think there is no where to go.

It is also 1000% easier to get a job while you have a job. Don't get fired and then go looking for a job. People for some reason like hiring you out of a different position than picking up someone who is unemployed.