How are Bards in the DPS department?

[Flash]

How do they compare in melee damage output compared to Monks, Rogues, Warriors, Rangers, Paladins, and Shadowknights?

I didn't see Double Attack or Kick in their skill set, which makes me skeptical of them...

[Nagash]

Couldn't give you a parse comparision but bards are not a DPS class so they will be far behind rogues, monks and probably warriors. Couldn't say compared to knights.

[CozzaFrenzy]

It's not fantastic by any means, but I don't think there are a lot of bards filling in DPS roles, that's just not what they do.

[Flash]

They have to do more then just alternate between songs in a fight.

[Slave]

I understand your interest but bards are more of a utility-melee class. They melee to deal free extra damage and sometimes for useful procs. Their high dexterity means they are often the best class to land certain procs, and I know it's not your question but they can easily hold aggro (too easily for comfort) and substitute for a real group tank for most of the game.

Bards will fall behind any other class in the game in melee dps except for pure casters (and often those as well). Their melee ability is very useful against pure casters in pvp, however.

[Flash]

That's really weird for them, considering how brutal they were in EQ:OA Melee, able to Quad.

[Pyronost]

Bards are good at everything, but a master at nothing. We act as pullers and crowd control during raids when we're not twisting resist songs. Yes, our melee is lulsy, but that's just how it is until later expansions (ones that we will not see here).

Honestly, Im using a bard as my first toon to springboard other characters that I intend on twinking out (Simply because they level stupidly fast)

[Lazortag]

At level 60 assuming the tank has perfect aggro I can do about 68 DPS once my best dots have landed. In reality though if you're casting Angstlich's Assonance, Denon's Bereavement and Selo's Chords of Cessation on the same mob you're likely to pull aggro pretty quickly.

[Ephirith]

Rogue > Monk >/= Warrior > Ranger > SK > Bard >/= Paladin

[Lazortag]

Rogue > Monk >/= Warrior > Ranger > SK > Bard >/= Paladin

Is that abomination supposed to be a "greater than or equal to" sign? If so, do you really think Monks and Warriors have comparable dps?

[Flash]

Is that abomination supposed to be a "greater than or equal to" sign? If so, do you really think Monks and Warriors have comparable dps?

Monks have high-damage kicks, but Warriors have Crits. Both have Double Attack and Dual Wield. I'd say it's pretty close.

[Ephirith]

Is that abomination supposed to be a "greater than or equal to" sign? If so, do you really think Monks and Warriors have comparable dps?

It's more like, Monks have higher damage but the gap isn't really THAT large and you are going to see some warriors who are doing more damage at certain levels of progression.

[bizzum]

Is that abomination supposed to be a "greater than or equal to" sign? If so, do you really think Monks and Warriors have comparable dps?

If the warrior is in berserk maybe! =P

[Nagash]

Is that abomination supposed to be a "greater than or equal to" sign? If so, do you really think Monks and Warriors have comparable dps?

Modern mathematics for you mate: superiorly different to the equal. Probably too much use of it that brought the exchange stock market where it is today :D

[Flash]

That's more attributed to people buying stocks on credit and running up debt, painting the tape (advertising stocks to be more valuable/profitable than they actually are), and the knowledge that human beings panic and act recklessly when something goes wrong.

[bizzum]

Bard dps is not greater than US debt.

[Flash]

Bard dps is not greater than US debt.

Bizzum, not even Chuck Norris is greater than US debt...

[Taminy]

Yes a warrior probably won't beat a monk DPS wise on average, but they can during some fights. At level 60.

Also in addition to crits (and crips if you're intentionally zerking) level 60 warriors have triple attack. Monks do not have triple attack. That's why monk weapons have better ratios than warrior ones. A warrior with a staff of battle will do more dps than a monk with a staff of battle.

[jerok88]

If you factor in Bard haste and such, bards added dps to the group could be quite high. However, bard's do not get overhaste until Velious so right now the benefit is almost nil if there is a chanter/shaman

[ThothAmon]

Yes a warrior probably won't beat a monk DPS wise on average, but they can during some fights. At level 60.

Also in addition to crits (and crips if you're intentionally zerking) level 60 warriors have triple attack. Monks do not have triple attack. That's why monk weapons have better ratios than warrior ones. A warrior with a staff of battle will do more dps than a monk with a staff of battle.

I thought Monks got triple attack at 60, also their attacks used the same damage table as a 60 warrior at 55, then a better damage table of their own at 60.

[Extunarian]

I thought Monks got triple attack at 60, also their attacks used the same damage table as a 60 warrior at 55, then a better damage table of their own at 60.


Monks were given triple attack somewhere around 06/2001, after Velious.

[Flash]

Okay, so to some up, Bard DPS isn't terrible, but not great either?

[Slave]

It's terrible.

[Diggles]

Are you switching classes again

[Flash]

Are you switching classes again

No, I'm making an alt.

[Snaggles]

Bard dps is above shaman dps and below everyone else. Assuming the shaman isn't a barb with a spiritualist hammer (total guess but I'd put bet on the shammy).

The only time it's even close to other melees is if they have crappy weapons, crappy haste, and no spell buffs (like haste). This isn't really a comparison though.

Warriors are not equal to monks again unless your comparing extremes.

I hate saying this but if your thinking about melee dps as a bard post teens you prob missed the whole point of the class. Similar to bow dps with a ranger...it's a dot at best. Not useless, but nothing to write home about when your AoE and charm kiting.

[Flash]

I wasn't aware that Bards actually had any form of damage with their music, only utility.

[Francois]

Most people here have no idea what they're talking about.

Feel free to send a tell to Franswa in game for accurate bard information.

[Diggles]

I wasn't aware that Bards actually had any form of damage with their music, only utility.

How did you think they kited?

[Flash]

How did you think they kited?

With harsh language.

[Motec]

I believe franswa is correct. You are all beyond confused, mistaken, dreaming or high on drugs. Not one of you has posted something even reasonably considerable as accurate on P1999 for the state of melee.

P.S. Bards are amazing, but 98% of the people that play them are morons. If you need to argue if a class is good or not, you are not good enough, experienced enough, know enough, or have the aptitude to play a bard and understand the mechanics of being a bard.

[Pyronost]

I believe I was fairly accurate. Thank you though.

[pickled_heretic]

bards are OP. their aoe mez is fucking ridiculous. you can train a whole zone to a bard and if he knows what he's doing he can keep the entire zone locked down with mezzes (while still twisting a song or two in) if he is competent. their dps is not amazing BY THEMSELVES. but if they are doing their CC job properly they will ALSO be charming mobs which increases the bard's dmg to quite a bit above any other class (except for a lvl 60 tstaff monk, lvl 60 rogue, or an enchanter who is charming, equipping, and hasting a backstabbing mob).

sadly most of the bards who play EQ will not ever reach this level of competence. but if you do you will wonder why you ever played any other class.

[Diggles]

I believe I was fairly accurate. Thank you though.

It's nice to have beliefs.

[falkun]

Charming an add instead of mezzing it will help the bard increase his DPS substantially. But that takes more coordination and skill than most bards will try.

Bard melee DPS is bad. If you are trying to contribute meaningfully to a group yourself, you are better off sitting back with a drum and singing the chant songs than trying to tear up DPS with weapons.

Bards live off a simple philosophy: Bards can do anything, but it takes them 3 seconds to do it and it lasts for 3 ticks (12-18sec). What a bard accomplishes within those 3 ticks separates the wheat from the chaff.

[Francois]

bards are OP. their aoe mez is fucking ridiculous. you can train a whole zone to a bard and if he knows what he's doing he can keep the entire zone locked down with mezzes (while still twisting a song or two in) if he is competent. their dps is not amazing BY THEMSELVES. but if they are doing their CC job properly they will ALSO be charming mobs which increases the bard's dmg to quite a bit above any other class (except for a lvl 60 tstaff monk, lvl 60 rogue, or an enchanter who is charming, equipping, and hasting a backstabbing mob).

sadly most of the bards who play EQ will not ever reach this level of competence. but if you do you will wonder why you ever played any other class.


All wrong.

The only person that has posted any legitimate information in this thread is Giegue. Carry on though, they're all pretty funny.

[Diggles]

if you play the thingy on the bard it will increase the effectiveness of the thingy that uses the thingy to make thingys

[Diggles]

I want a lute with Franswa's avatar pasted on the front side.

[pickled_heretic]

All wrong.

The only person that has posted any legitimate information in this thread is Giegue. Carry on though, they're all pretty funny.

how is this wrong? I was grouped with bards that were using this exact tactic in my 30's, and using my own charmed pets to help mow through the train.. furthermore isn't this how TR used to pull VS to the zone and lockdown every mob before rogean banned it? Isn't TMO nuking one of these said trains to break the bard mez what got them raid banned for a week?

[pickled_heretic]

I know I won't get a straight response, because none of the bards want their OP aoe mez that actually got resisted to all fuckshit on classic live nerfed.

[Diggles]

selos gets faster every level

[Francois]

furthermore isn't this how TR used to pull VS to the zone and lockdown every mob before rogean banned it? Isn't TMO nuking one of these said trains to break the bard mez what got them raid banned for a week?

Not how you described, and yes.

[pickled_heretic]

Not how you described, and yes.

ok.... so you agree with me that bards can (and have in the past) mez every mob in the zone if they want....

what are you disagreeing with exactly? I can't see what you're doing other than trying to find any opportunity to call someone stupid without having to explain yourself. Correct me if i'm wrong

[knottyb0y]

Are you talking about bards straight Melee DPS Output or are you talking about bard max dps including DOT songs etc etc?

If you are talking about straight melee dps then you will find their melee prowess slightly better than a caster. Bards have dual wield and I believe they share the same damage table as hybrids (knights and rangers). Because of Double attack and the ability to use 2handers and a myriad of better ratio weapons knights outshine bards by far. Due to weapon selection and dual wield however bards sit above casters (wis and int) in damage output.

At the most basic level you will see damage melee damage output ranked as such.
1. Monk (double attack, dual wield, better damage table at 60, Incredible range of great ratio weapons including 2hb)
2. Rogue (double attack, dual wield, backstab, limited by lack of high damage piercers for backstab in this era)
3. Warrior (double attack, triple attack at 60, decent range of available weapons, can dual wield or use 2handers giving more flexibility in damage output)
4. Ranger (double attack, dual wield)
5. Shadowknight (double attack)
6. Paladin (double attack)
7. Bard (dual wield)

Keep in mind with the right gear and situations Rogues and Monks will flip flop in dps. But monks have the flexibility to use 2handed weapons or dual wield where rogues only dual wield and do not get any rogue usable piercers with incredibly high damage values to balance backstab. Also a warrior and monk at level 60 may be close if using identical weapons, but I would say that monks in general have more weapons with better ratios than warriors at any level and money status.

If all 7 melee classes were using weapons of the same damage/delay you would see the above ranking prove true, though rogues would likely out damage monks. I think though in addition to inherent class abilities melee damage output is directly affected by the number of weapons a class has available to them and how powerful those weapons are. With that said monks in Kunark get the most variety of insane ratio weapons. Warriors would be second in the line thought rogues get great piercers, I don't think anything goes over 15 damage.

Bards value is NOT in melee damage output. So being the lowest melee dps melee really doesn't mean much.

[Francois]

1 bard can't do it because of the amount of resists. In KC we had 4 bards singing the song on top of each other. Even with 4 bards, you still get hit if the train gets big enough. It's 1 song that you repeatedly spam not 2 that you twist. You make it sound like we're these gods that can just mez whole zones at a time, and you're wrong about how to actually pull it off.

I'm just laughing because people here are offering help when they don't know how bards work on P99. It's nice in thought, but you're feeding the OP incorrect information.

And finally, the thread is entitled "How are Bards in the DPS department?". Not "why picked_heretic thinks bards are OP".

[pickled_heretic]

1 bard can't do it because of the amount of resists. In KC we had 4 bards singing the song on top of each other. Even with 4 bards, you still get hit if the train gets big enough. It's 1 song that you repeatedly spam not 2 that you twist. You make it sound like we're these gods that can just mez whole zones at a time, and you're wrong about how to actually pull it off.

I'm just laughing because people here are offering help when they don't know how bards work on P99. It's nice in thought, but you're feeding the OP incorrect information.

And finally, the thread is entitled "How are Bards in the DPS department?". Not "why picked_heretic thinks bards are OP".

I never said you twisted songs in order to use aoe mez, I said you CAN twist other songs. And yes, just like aoe in skyfire, once you start stunning/mezzing 100+ mobs, you need someone else there doing the same thing to decrease the number of occasional resists. The fact that, 2, or even 4 bards can even contemplate doing something like this indefinitely is still broken at a raid level and nothing like the way it was for classic. NO amount of enchanters could pull off the same thing, and they would only be able to stunlock it for as long as they had mana, which WAS classic.

my first post also commented on DPS, which was also completely accurate. charmed dps is the best dps in the game and bards are one of the four classes that can charm. that puts them somewhere near the top of the DPS tier list as long as there are appropriate mobs / pulls for them to charm from.

[Snaggles]

Regarding Melee DPS the main-thing to remember is skill/offense caps and abilities.

The bard has 225 for these and no trixy melee skill (backstab, flying kick, crits, etc). Also they lack double-attack which obviously benefits greatly from main-hand damage bonus.

Weak melee dps has never kept a bard down though. They are more a caster in plate armor than a tank/dps.

[falkun]

I never said you twisted songs in order to use aoe mez, I said you CAN twist other songs.

you can train a whole zone to a bard and if he knows what he's doing he can keep the entire zone locked down with mezzes (while still twisting a song or two in) if he is competent.
You cannot twist songs and AE mez, the AE mez song does not last long enough to permit that function.
The fact that, 2, or even 4 bards can even contemplate doing something like this indefinitely is still broken at a raid level and nothing like the way it was for classic. NO amount of enchanters could pull off the same thing, and they would only be able to stunlock it for as long as they had mana, which WAS classic.

Lucy (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=724&source=Live) and EQDiva (http://web.archive.org/web/20010421163029/http://www.eqdiva.com/songs.asp?song=15) would disagree that it was "not classic". According to Lucy, it was changed from PBAOE to Single on 9/24/2002. Since we are prior to 2002 on our timeline, the song is in line with "classic".


my first post also commented on DPS, which was also completely accurate. charmed dps is the best dps in the game and bards are one of the four classes that can charm. that puts them somewhere near the top of the DPS tier list as long as there are appropriate mobs / pulls for them to charm from.
Bard charm lasts 3 ticks, just like everything else. If you think it is viable for a bard to permanently charm a pet, you are crazy. If the bard or puller grabs an add? Great, charm it, but don't keep 1 spawn locked down because you want to recharm a pet every 18sec. For all intents and purposes, I would not include charm DPS into a bard's "typical" DPS setup, but that is only my opinion as a practicing bard.

[pickled_heretic]

You cannot twist songs and AE mez, the AE mez song does not last long enough to permit that function.


fair enough, i defer to your experience and withdraw that point, though i am quite sure i have seen bards twist while ae mezzing. whatever

Lucy (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellhistory.html?id=724&source=Live) would disagree that it was "not classic". According to Lucy, it was changed from PBAOE to Single on 9/24/2002. Since we are prior to 2002 on our timeline, the song is in line with "classic".

I'm not saying the song wasn't aoe during classic, i'm saying it was resisted a shitload more than what it is now against mobs lvl 30+ to make it unreliable and dangerous to use on live. which it was

random quote supporting evidence from zam:

This use to be an AE back around with Luclin came out. Shortly after it was changed to a single target mez, probably because the AE version got alot of resists.

to your next point:

Bard charm lasts 3 ticks, just like everything else. If you think it is viable for a bard to permanently charm a pet, you are crazy. If the bard or puller grabs an add? Great, charm it, but don't keep 1 spawn locked down because you want to recharm a pet every 18sec. For all intents and purposes, I would not include charm DPS into a bard's "typical" DPS setup, but that is only my opinion as a practicing bard.

you don't permanently charm a pet. but even if you have a pet charmed only half the time you're going to be outdpsing most classes, charmed dps is just that good. any bard dps scheme that doesn't incorporate charming is pretty stupid unless there's simply no other way to charm or you are PBAOEing. personally i believe that it should be part of your normal CC routine anyway. 3 mobs into camp: mez one, charm one. 2 mobs into camp: charm one. and so forth.

[Francois]

Did you play a bard on live? just curious where you're getting your information from.

[pickled_heretic]

Did you play a bard on live? just curious where you're getting your information from.

personally no, i never played a bard on live. but i certainly remember nothing like bards mezzing huge trains

anyway, there's plenty of supporting evidence here:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=442129&postcount=1

a dev has never responded to this thread, i don't know why; maybe they don't care. anyway it would have solved all the ridiculous VS training to the zone so rogean wouldn't have had to fabricate rules for the zone in order to prevent all the exp groups from being trained to death for 20 minutes every time VS pops.

[falkun]

The OP in that post (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52422) has lots of misinformation or misunderstood game mechanics.
>>>Kelin's Lucid Lullaby, I recently tested this song out vs. a level one human warrior. My Bard was level 37 at the time, using the Lute of the Gypsy Princess and I have charisma of 141. Every round I got the 'so and so head nods' message and every nearly every round the test subject was able to attack me (about 1 in 10 rounds he would not).
As was stated, this mez lasts 1 tick, if you do not chain cast (not let it tick, but RECAST), you will not remez in time. This is because you can chain cast every 3 sec due to the 3sec cast, but the song will only pulse on the server tick, every 6 sec, the same as the tick for the mez wearing off. This is working as intended.
4 targets
You'll notice in the EQDiva website link I provided, the official description also states 4 targets. However, reading the comments reveals that the 4-target limit did not actually exist.
The fact that this song is resisted very easily doesn't really help this situation.
If he is trying to mez dark blue mobs without someone malo/tashing each one, of course he is going to get a lot of resists. In the case of KC, you had multiple 55+ (probably all four are 60) bards mezzing mobs that were low dark blue at the most, green at the least. And there were 4 of them, of course they are going to be able to lock down the mobs better.

[pickled_heretic]

what mobs in KC are green to a 60? I am level 57 and I haven't seen a single mob con LB yet.

There are multiple sources repeating the 4 target max, EVEN THE DATABASE THAT YOU LINKED EARLIER SAYS 4 MAX LOL.

The song is currently broken and needs to be fixed.

[Rusl]

Half the zone is green or light blue at 60.

Back on topic. Bards aren't a dps class unless you think banging on a drum while punching a dragon counts as dps.

[falkun]

EQDiva (http://web.archive.org/web/20010421163029/http://www.eqdiva.com/songs.asp?song=15) comment, dated 3/11/01.
And you can mezz more then 4 creatures at a time.
The link I provided was Lucy's, which reads directly from the database. I'm not arguing that the in-game tooltip states "4 target max", I'm arguing that the limit did not truly exist, regardless of what the tooltip states. The links you provided rip data from the tooltip, but do not comment on a target limit when discussing actual use.

Even the link you provided regarding resists alludes to the lack of a target limit:
lull targets near you

Back on target: Pickled is dead wrong about bards in general, disregard his information about bard DPS. Bards do their best personal DPS using instruments and songs, not with melee weapons. Bards add the most DPS to a melee-oriented group utilizing melee weapons and haste+str songs (as haste is unaffected by instrument modifiers), with the caveat that if possible, temporarily charming an add is a great addition to DPS, but not something that is to be relied upon or available. Bards add teh best DPS to a group of casters utilizing drums with DPS songs that also contain negative resist components, while also singing mana song so casters have more mana to DPS with.

But a bard is not brought for his personal DPS, he is brought for the utility he adds to the group through regen, hastes, slows, stat buffs, debuffs, and the other songs within his vast arsenal of ballads.

[pickled_heretic]

neat, one random comment from a lvl 17 bard disproves the multiple cross-referenced comments as well as the original tooltip that states 4 target max.

if you twist like you argue your group is in some serious trouble :O

Back on target: Pickled is dead wrong about bards in general, disregard his information about bard DPS.
how about, instead of being dismissive, try to be civil and find some specifics that you disagree on?
Half the zone is green or light blue at 60.

if you can screenshot a green con non-pet mob in KC I will give you a thousand platinum.

[falkun]

2:http://web.archive.org/web/20010421163029/http://www.eqdiva.com/songs.asp?song=15
I believe that the cap of 4 mobs is only for sung. With strings it's unlimited. Though I may be wrong.....
While it is wrong that the instrument increases the limit of mezzed mobs, it still indicates more than 4 can be mezzed.

3:http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/spell.html?spell=724
Here's the REAL story of the former AE mez...
In beta it was super overpowered. It could lock down an entire zone. This caused all bard mez songs to have a second resist check added. Essentially, the song could land but not affect the creature. This led to the supremacy of Enchanters in crowd controlling (and monks in pulling, as a bard's only tool for controlling a lull failure was removed).

Bards complained bitterly about this state of affairs, while Verant denied there was any problem. This came to a head in a famous (among bards at least) episode where a dev came to watch a demonstration in the Qeynos newbie yard as a high level bard attempted to mez the level 1 snakes, only to have a near 100% resist rate.

Eventually the second resist check was removed, and this song changed to single target.

4:http://eqclassic.de/wiki/Kellin%27s_Lucid_Lullaby
This song will put to sleep mobs in close proximity to you.
While not technically a dated source, its another classic emulator whose Kelin's Lucid Lullaby works in the same manner.

5:http://scmelze02.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/bardsincombat.htm
Disengage temporarily if down to two and a quarter bubbles of HP, do not reengage until up to more than three bubbles. Sometimes it may also be necessary to stop singing any song so the fighter can get those monsters off you. Exception: If you've started singing Kelin's Lucid Lullaby, it's usually a BAD idea to stop singing.
Disengage if attacked by multiple enemies, or use Kelin's Lucid Lullaby.
Multiple enemies, without a target limit reference.

How many more sources would you like? Also, note that P99 server developers -changed- the Kelin's on this server from the nerfed single target mez back to the "classic" AE mez. I don't think that is the type of thing they do lightly.

[Gmal]

I can do 135 dps as a berzerker warrior with 2 wurmslayers. just an FYI. Thats better then most monks can do unless they have 2 mastery fists. I compare to some rogues out there that are medicor geared.

[Szeth]

if you can screenshot a green con non-pet mob in KC I will give you a thousand platinum.

Make it 10k otherwise it's not worth my time. I promise you if you do I will deliver.

[Szeth]

Also calling shenanigans on 135 dps without a parse. I'm pretty sure Gmal is just trolling in any case. Especially since he said "most" monks with sky fists, and there aren't any monks w/ sky fists doing 135 dps.(without innerflame over an 18 second period)

[pickled_heretic]

Here's the REAL story of the former AE mez...
In beta it was super overpowered. It could lock down an entire zone. This caused all bard mez songs to have a second resist check added. Essentially, the song could land but not affect the creature. This led to the supremacy of Enchanters in crowd controlling (and monks in pulling, as a bard's only tool for controlling a lull failure was removed).

Bards complained bitterly about this state of affairs, while Verant denied there was any problem. This came to a head in a famous (among bards at least) episode where a dev came to watch a demonstration in the Qeynos newbie yard as a high level bard attempted to mez the level 1 snakes, only to have a near 100% resist rate.

Eventually the second resist check was removed, and this song changed to single target.
Thank you for posting this, Falkun. Sounds like the devs need to add a 2nd resist check, to make the song useless (e.g. classic). That sounds like a great way to fix it. This song was a non-factor during classic as it should be here.

We currently have the overpowered beta version. We should be using the version with the 2nd resist check, and we should be using it for the duration of this server's existence.

[Diggles]

A bards job is not that he deals 9001 DPS, his job its to make others deal 9002

[Szeth]

Pickled, will you pay 10k for a green mob ss in karnors? Or were you just blowing smoke up our asses?

[pickled_heretic]

Pickled, will you pay 10k for a green mob ss in karnors?

wait, what? where did i say i was paying 10k for anything?

[Rusl]

No szeth that's my plat gtfo

[Szeth]

Fine, 1k. And the plat goes to Rusl. I just need vindication.

[Snaggles]

Also calling shenanigans on 135 dps without a parse. I'm pretty sure Gmal is just trolling in any case. Especially since he said "most" monks with sky fists, and there aren't any monks w/ sky fists doing 135 dps.(without innerflame over an 18 second period)

+1 (or +1,000,000 since we are inflating numbers)

[Splorf22]

We need mardur on here, I remember he claimed he soloed a DB mob in 10 seconds with the Mighty Strike discipline.

[falkun]

Thank you for posting this, Falkun. Sounds like the devs need to add a 2nd resist check, to make the song useless (e.g. classic). That sounds like a great way to fix it. This song was a non-factor during classic as it should be here.

We currently have the overpowered beta version. We should be using the version with the 2nd resist check, and we should be using it for the duration of this server's existence.

neat, one random comment disproves the multiple cross-referenced comments

Listen to your own words if you want to crusade, because the multiple posts I found determined that this song did in fact work and was not, as you say, "useless".

Finally, Bug reports are that way ----> (http://www.project1999.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
Rants & Flames (for your anti-bard hatred crusading) are this way -----> (http://www.project1999.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30)

Take your unproductive trolling and inaccuracies out of server chat.

[pickled_heretic]

Listen to your own words if you want to crusade, because the multiple posts I found determined that this song did in fact work and was not, as you say, "useless".

Do you think this song was highly resisted during classic in its aoe state or not? If not, why did you post evidence showing the contrary?

Take your unproductive trolling and inaccuracies out of server chat.

I swear, people get accused of trolling for anything these days. My original post here was essentially "bard dps is pretty damn good due to charming, but why would you care since you are the best CCer in the game due to an unresolved bug?" Not off topic at all. I am merely defending myself now

[Lazortag]

All wrong.

The only person that has posted any legitimate information in this thread is Giegue. Carry on though, they're all pretty funny.

<3

[Gwence]

the pbae songs are probably the best dps with the lute on but can't really do it in a group setting it will pull agro really quick, unless you want agro I guess.

I won't lie about the lvl 15 ae mez song or whatever level it is, it's saved my life quite a few times and the lives of others. I have locked down the entire west wing in HS more than once while group picked mobs off one by one. The lower level the mob the more unlikely it will get a resist, but I think that is pretty common for anyone.

When I use ae mez in south or east wing it's 50/50 at best as far as resists go. So you do definitely get resists the higher the mobs get and anything over lvl 55 won't land on it at all.

Someone said you can't twist while you're doing it, that's wrong.. you can 1 song twist in-between the mez's. I do when the amount of mobs isn't too crazy. I also melee instead of just standing there spamming the gem like a goonface. I wouldn't recommend doing it on a raid but in an xp group it's fun to challenge yourself. Then again, I'm pretty much the biggest badass that has ever clicked "log in" so my superior skills shouldn't come as that much of a surprise.

[Francois]

if you can screenshot a green con non-pet mob in KC I will give you a thousand platinum.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2wh2i5z.png

Thank you sir.

[Francois]

Please give my platinum reward to my favorite aspiring bard, Bansho.

[Kabilos]

http://www.availableimages.com/images/pictures/2000/scary-movie/aph_1.jpg

[Diggles]

franswa, teach me how to p99 bard pls

[pickled_heretic]

fair enough, there is 1 type of mob that will sometimes con green. but falkun was making it sound like the whole zone is green to a lvl 60 which is NOT the way it is. There are plenty of DBs, especially if you are pulling from VS guardians, and 2 bards should NOT be able to lock everything in the zone like they have been.

anyway, your bard friend is not on, i'll add him to friends and see if i can catch him some time.

[Flash]

Funny how my thread exploded into a full-blown argument about something completely irrelevent to the original question.

[pickled_heretic]

the pbae songs are probably the best dps with the lute on but can't really do it in a group setting it will pull agro really quick, unless you want agro I guess.

I won't lie about the lvl 15 ae mez song or whatever level it is, it's saved my life quite a few times and the lives of others. I have locked down the entire west wing in HS more than once while group picked mobs off one by one. The lower level the mob the more unlikely it will get a resist, but I think that is pretty common for anyone.

When I use ae mez in south or east wing it's 50/50 at best as far as resists go. So you do definitely get resists the higher the mobs get and anything over lvl 55 won't land on it at all.

Someone said you can't twist while you're doing it, that's wrong.. you can 1 song twist in-between the mez's. I do when the amount of mobs isn't too crazy. I also melee instead of just standing there spamming the gem like a goonface. I wouldn't recommend doing it on a raid but in an xp group it's fun to challenge yourself. Then again, I'm pretty much the biggest badass that has ever clicked "log in" so my superior skills shouldn't come as that much of a surprise.

Good god I hope that song doesn't mez lvl 55+ mobs, most enchanter mezzes don't work on 55+ mobs either. It would be even more broken than it is.

[Flash]

Fransho, if you see any tells from a guy named Dragonforce, that's my bard. Please give him advice on how to not suck. =)

[falkun]

fair enough, there is 1 type of mob that will sometimes con green. but falkun was making it sound like the whole zone is green to a lvl 60 which is NOT the way it is. There are plenty of DBs, especially if you are pulling from VS guardians, and 2 bards should NOT be able to lock everything in the zone like they have been.
If he is trying to mez dark blue mobs without someone malo/tashing each one, of course he is going to get a lot of resists. In the case of KC, you had multiple 55+ (probably all four are 60) bards mezzing mobs that were low dark blue at the most, green at the least. And there were 4 of them, of course they are going to be able to lock down the mobs better.
Not sure where you drew the conclusion that I said the whole zone was green, but Franswa has proven that a large portion of KC is LB to L60, which will obviously be easier to mez than high dark blue due to how much level discrepancy affects resist rates.
Do you think this song was highly resisted during classic in its aoe state or not? If not, why did you post evidence showing the contrary?
What I think or think I remember is irrelevant, what I have found evidence for contradicts what you think. You have failed to provide evidence for what you think, the onus is on you to provide evidence the spell is broken, not me.
an unresolved bug
Prove your opinion with evidence please. And congratulations on losing 1kPP, you really proved that point as well!

[pickled_heretic]

Not sure where you drew the conclusion that I said the whole zone was green, but Franswa has proven that a large portion of KC is LB to L60, which will obviously be easier to mez than high dark blue due to how much level discrepancy affects resist rates.

What I think or think I remember is irrelevant, what I have found evidence for contradicts what you think. You have failed to provide evidence for what you think, the onus is on you to provide evidence the spell is broken, not me.

Prove your opinion with evidence please. And congratulations on losing 1kPP, you really proved that point as well!

you yourself have provided evidence that the song was nerfed to uselessness during this era. what evidence do i need to provide? I already reposted the quote you posted. Should I post it again? here, I'll do just that.

Here's the REAL story of the former AE mez...
In beta it was super overpowered. It could lock down an entire zone. This caused all bard mez songs to have a second resist check added. Essentially, the song could land but not affect the creature. This led to the supremacy of Enchanters in crowd controlling (and monks in pulling, as a bard's only tool for controlling a lull failure was removed).

Bards complained bitterly about this state of affairs, while Verant denied there was any problem. This came to a head in a famous (among bards at least) episode where a dev came to watch a demonstration in the Qeynos newbie yard as a high level bard attempted to mez the level 1 snakes, only to have a near 100% resist rate.

Eventually the second resist check was removed, and this song changed to single target.

You have to have a seriously distorted view of the world to try to accept this quote as evidence without accepting its implications.

[pickled_heretic]

also, i'm more than happy to give the platinum, especially to someone who might need it. even if they are a bard.

[Tuffpuppy]

I do not see how pickled_heretics information is wrong at all. He never said that they could do great dps while meleeing, but rather using charm to out dps the other melee in the group, which they would.

[Francois]

Please give my platinum reward to my favorite aspiring bard, Bansho.

Paid in full. That was quick.

[falkun]

you yourself have provided evidence that the song was nerfed to uselessness during this era. what evidence do i need to provide? I already reposted the quote you posted. Should I post it again? here, I'll do just that.
You have to have a seriously distorted view of the world to try to accept this quote as evidence without accepting its implications.

And that post is one example that was provided, originally written after the song was nerfed to single target. It is not an accurate quote from the actual era.

I posted other pieces of evidence from the era when the song was an AE mez that portray that the song did actually work at mezzing and was not "useless". You must construct additional arguments; one post from "memory" does not an argument make when multiple posts from "experiences" have been provided proving the opposite.

[pickled_heretic]

And that post is one example that was provided, originally written after the song was nerfed to single target. It is not an accurate quote from the actual era.

I posted other pieces of evidence from the era when the song was an AE mez that portray that the song did actually work at mezzing and was not "useless". You must construct additional arguments; one post from "memory" does not an argument make when multiple posts from "experiences" have been provided proving the opposite.

iEQCastersrealm via wayback machine:

While there is some question whether this song had a memory blur effect in its original release version, there is no question now. Verant have stated categorically and repeatedly that there is not. Any apparent effect is simply the result of the bard leaping to the top of every mob's hate list in his/her usual fashion. Secondary resists, on the other hand, are a new feature added in late 1999. Verant claims that low greens should make their secondary resist rolls about 35% of the time, and that even cons should make it about 50% of the time. Actual logs suggest that in practice all mobs make the roll at least 50% of the time, and even cons or higher make it rather more often than that. Furthermore, while primary resists are affected by the Bard's charisma and string skills, the secondary resist is not affected by anything but level.

After seeing a post by Gordon (or GZ, I cant remember), They basically said that the song is not very usable after level 25. So, rather then the song having been nerfed, its that the effect is much less after attaining level 25.

Despite insistence to the contrary this song has changed since release. At one time mobs that failed to resist never attacked before they woke up normally. Somewhere in there though they started getting a second save effectively and now mobs fail to resist ie "soandso Nods" yet they attack away as if nothing ever happened. This happens about 25% of the time probably due to the double effect-double resist.

Actual quote from Geoffrey Zatkin:

As most high level enchanters from Beta+ can tell you, there are two saving throws that happen with an “Enthrall” style effect (such as Kelin’s Lucid Lullaby) hits a creature. The first saving throw is against the target’s Magic Resistance. The second saving throw only happens with high level monsters – they get a secondary save based on their level. The reason for this is that the Enthrall effect is very, very powerful – it allows a single player to remove a creature from combat. This means that a party that could handle two “X” level mobs might be able to take three, or even four of them on if there is somebody around with the Enthrall effect.

Because of this (read game balance) higher level monsters have a harder time being enthralled. At lower levels, a single player can take out a single opponent of equal level. By mid levels this is much harder, and by high levels it is virtually impossible. Allowing a single player to remove one or more creatures from combat at high levels is sick level powerful – to the point that we designed an entire classes specialty around doing it.

The second saving throw does not send a message the environment – and that is something that is on our list of issues to address. There are, however, no bugs with the Song.

Basically the song is missing an additional saving throw. Green con mobs above lvl 25 should have a 35% flat chance to save against the song in addition to their normal save, blue cons have a flat 50% chance to resist the song.

[falkun]

Link sources! I'd love to read originals.

[pickled_heretic]

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/brentcopeland/quotes/abashi/jan06003.html

http://web.archive.org/web/20020113122555/http://eq.castersrealm.com/spells/spelldescriptions.asp?Id=996&Page=2

[Nizzarr]

The bards in this thread are doing their best impression of this guy:


http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl2008/images/20030425007100510.jpg

[falkun]

IDK, four bards holding off LBs at ~25% resist rate sounds about right to cover everything. 8casts/tick (4 bards at 3sec/cast and 6sec/tick) should be able to cover even when resists are at a floating 25% (green) to 50% (white) resist rate when some are green, most are LB, and a few are dark blue.

[pickled_heretic]

assuming LB's resist at 25%. I don't know franswa, you're the expert here. Do LB's resist at 25%? You tell us.

Anyway, there are going to be DBs in that stack, and there's going to be quite a few of them, including lvl 55's if they're pulling VS guardians, and with a 50% resist rate they would chew those bards up for a snack.

Bards do the same thing in hate/fear when gods pop, which should be suicidal normally.

[falkun]

The quote you provided says the 50% resist rate is for even con mobs, which would not be encountered by a L60 in Karnors. So the maximum resist rate would be less than 50%. Also, you only need 1 landed mez per tick for the mob to be mezzed for another tick round. At 8 chances per tick (math provided in previous post), with a 50% (more than theoretical max) chance of failure, you still only have a 0.5**8 = 0.5^8 = 0.390625% chance of the mob not being mezzed at least once per tick. Why is it still surprising to you that multiple bards can keep karnors locked down?

[Nizzarr]

Actually,the second check is based on the level of the mobs, nothing else pretty much matters.

lvl 50 mobs should resist that check about 75%-90% of the time, just saying.

[pickled_heretic]

The quote you provided says the 50% resist rate is for even con mobs

You didn't read very well.

Verant claims that low greens should make their secondary resist rolls about 35% of the time, and that even cons should make it about 50% of the time. Actual logs suggest that in practice all mobs make the roll at least 50% of the time, and even cons or higher make it rather more often than that.

[Nizzarr]

fact is, I`ve never seen any bards using this on live and if they did they probably got kicked out of the group for getting everyone killed.

It's way broken here.

I'm also tired of seeing bards being godlike CC'ers in situations where a whole raid should be wiping. They make it EZ mode for some zerg-a-like newbie guilds.

[Gmal]

Also calling shenanigans on 135 dps without a parse. I'm pretty sure Gmal is just trolling in any case. Especially since he said "most" monks with sky fists, and there aren't any monks w/ sky fists doing 135 dps.(without innerflame over an 18 second period)

Been parsed at 135 to 150 dps spike dmg in groups in berzerker form and dual Wurmslayers many of times. Anytime when we got some free time and arnt poopsocking each other. Id be happy to out dps ya. The fights vary it can go from 40 dps to as high as 150 spikes but a majority of my fights in berzerker shaman buffed with chanter haste I can sustain 80 to 135 dps no problem. bring your plat to the table I got 5k on it.

I am sure there are other warriors out there that concure to these figures. Kelendil and myself did extensive tit for tats going through the parses.

If Im crippling for average 300s and spiking in the 500 dmg range 1 out of 15 swings and sometimes double crits you do the math.

[Snaggles]

I still don't think you've grouped with any decent geared monks or rogues.

Dual-wurms isn't exactly something to beat your chest about. You know at lvl 60 for the primary it isn't any better than a Jade Mace for damage, right? It is gravy for offhand though. If you like huge streaky numbers that combo is full of win.

Not trying to start a pissing contest. It's just math and damage bonus x time.

[Gmal]

I still don't think you've grouped with any decent geared monks or rogues.

Dual-wurms isn't exactly something to beat your chest about. You know at lvl 60 for the primary it isn't any better than a Jade Mace for damage, right? It is gravy for offhand though. If you like huge streaky numbers that combo is full of win.

Not trying to start a pissing contest. It's just math and damage bonus x time.

I am one of the MT's for TMO Ive grouped with the best. I am not saying out dps them consistantly but I can spike higher then some of them at times.

Warrior berzerkering Wurmslayers are the best in game that is offered for this. We go for huge hits with the cripples. jade mace cant even compare. You want hard hitting weapons for berzerker dps. I am also not speaking in terms of raid encounters but normal zone mobs. This is without me tanking and being on the backside of the mob.

[Snaggles]

Sigh, forget it. Back to a topic only slightly less dumb...

Bard Melee Dps.

[pickled_heretic]

Sigh, forget it. Back to a topic only slightly less dumb...

Bard Melee Dps.

i'm sorry, there's nothing interesting to say about this. that's probably why the thread's gone so offtopic.

[Szeth]

I am one of the MT's for TMO Ive grouped with the best.

[pickled_heretic]

big crits with long delay = smaller crits with less delay

doesn't matter if you are jesus, or frankenstein, or the president of the universe, you can still be wrong. i'd love to see you parse a jade mace vs a wurmslayer in the mainhand for the sake of completeness, conventional eq logic was that the jade mace was always better for the mainhand, maybe that's changed. crits effect both weapons equally btw

[Diggles]

Funny how my thread exploded into a full-blown argument about something completely irrelevent to the original question.

Because your question has one answer: "sub par"

[Snaggles]

i'm sorry, there's nothing interesting to say about this. that's probably why the thread's gone so offtopic.

Yea, this thread needs a jug of gasoline and a very long fuse.