pvp guard assist questions

[nilbog]

Okay so we now have the ability for NPCs to protect pcs vs pcs.

This will require placing a flag on each individual npc type which should assist.

From what I recall, all city guards, and all guildmasters functioned this way.
-City guards
-Guildmasters
Yes?

How about other npcs which protect pcs from npcs
-a_guard - highpass
-a_highpass_citizen - highpass
-explorers, pilgrims, drixies - firiona vie
etc

Discuss.

[Samoht]

I don't like the idea of citizens/pilgrims assisting in PVP (unless they would normally attack for faction reasons).

Guards are different because it's their purpose to guard. They also need to be indiscriminate and attack all parties involved in PVP, not just an aggressor. Otherwise, it would be too easy for certain classes to appear as just retaliating instead.

[nilbog]

They also need to be indiscriminate and attack all parties involved in PVP, not just an aggressor. Otherwise, it would be too easy for certain classes to appear as just retaliating instead.

They didn't kill everyone involved on eqlive, iirc. If you're both good faction, they would kill the aggressor. I don't think you should be killed when standing by a friendly guard, because someone attacks you.

[Slave]

All mobs in the game displayed this behavior, from griffons and rats to bards, PODs, and gods. It's what made the pvp servers so immersive and amazing.

[Samoht]

I don't think you should be killed when standing by a friendly guard, because someone attacks you.

Nobody is advocating getting killed for just standing there. If you don't attack, there's no penalty.

If you're both good faction, they would kill the aggressor.

But how is a guard going to decide who attacked first if someone engages you and then kites you to the guard? What if a monk attacks you, you fight back, the monk FDs, and you don't have the reaction speed to turn off auto attack before your next swing or stop your spell from casting? What if it's an SK instead and he pops up just in time to last-hit you with HT after a swarm of guards does most of the hard work?

The guard system needs to be robust enough to not be abused.

[Doors]

I could go either way on this idea. I mean its going to suck if people just run and hide in towns near level 50 NPC guild masters but at the same time you could form raids and shit stomp cities just to get to people.

Could overall make PVP more interesting but at the same time this could deter small scale PVP battles.

[Softcore PK]

I remember the Priest of Discord attacking me for pvping someone. Right? Maybe I'm remembering wrong.. :S

[Slave]

They didn't kill everyone involved on eqlive, iirc. If you're both good faction, they would kill the aggressor. I don't think you should be killed when standing by a friendly guard, because someone attacks you.

If the players in question had equal faction, they attacked neither, I think. I remember having max ally faction in many places where other people also did.

[Slave]

This also worked with damage shields... if someone with lower faction had a damage shield up, and you hit them, the guards would kill them.

[nilbog]

But how is a guard going to decide who attacked first if someone engages you and then kites you to the guard?


I think that would involve a bit of strategy.. if you are kited to a guard who is going to assist your adversary, you got owned for not knowing your faction and/or where guards are?

What if a monk attacks you, you fight back, the monk FDs, and you don't have the reaction speed to turn off auto attack before your next swing or stop your spell from casting?
What if it's an SK instead and he pops up just in time to last-hit you with HT after a swarm of guards does most of the hard work?
Seems like both of these would work as intended. In both situations, the player should know not to fight FD classes near guards?

Most of what I'm saying is here is from memory, so, more input requested.

[Silikten]

Didn't the guards assist whoever had higher faction and if both were ally they'd not do anything? That's what I remember!

[MrSparkle001]

They didn't kill everyone involved on eqlive, iirc. If you're both good faction, they would kill the aggressor. I don't think you should be killed when standing by a friendly guard, because someone attacks you.

That's how it should be, right? They shouldn't not intervene just because both factions are equal.

[Slave]

Didn't the guards assist whoever had higher faction and if both were ally they'd not do anything? That's what I remember!


The guards did not assist a higher-faction attacker. They only killed someone when they fought back. IE lower-factioned attackers. This means that guard behavior was focused on damage dealt. If damage came from a source that had lower faction with the mob than the player being dealt damage TO, the mob attacked.

Damage Shield damage counted as damage dealt. I don't know how that might work here with the way they have Damage Shields coded.

[Samoht]

the player should know not to fight FD classes near guards?

I don't think you should be killed when standing by a friendly guard, because someone attacks you.

So it's only appropriate to get killed standing next to a guard when you're attacked by a Necro/Monk/SK?

[Silikten]

Hmm, I remember chasing ppl to guards as they tried to use them to kill me but I'd have higher faction so when I hit them the guards wouldn't do anything. If they had a DS the gaurds would assist me because they had lower faction. That's what made faction a big deal...not just they assist attackers.

[Softcore PK]

Hmm, I remember chasing ppl to guards as they tried to use them to kill me but I'd have higher faction so when I hit them the guards wouldn't do anything. If they had a DS the gaurds would assist me because they had lower faction. That's what made faction a big deal...not just they assist attackers.

this

[nilbog]

So it's only appropriate to get killed standing next to a guard when you're attacked by a Necro/Monk/SK?

A successful FD removes you from the hatelist of an npc. So, if there were 2 monks.. one could pull the guards away while the other kills you. This seems to work mechanically and RPishly.

My point was.. you shouldn't be attacked by guards merely by being attacked from another player.

Move away from the guard, and wait for the FD attacker? Or don't. Go to your guildmasters and afk. Most likely they will die trying to kill you.

Could you be more specific in your example of how it would be abused?

[Slave]

Hmm, I remember chasing ppl to guards as they tried to use them to kill me but I'd have higher faction so when I hit them the guards wouldn't do anything. If they had a DS the gaurds would assist me because they had lower faction. That's what made faction a big deal...not just they assist attackers.

The guards did not assist a higher-faction attacker. They only killed someone when they fought back. IE lower-factioned attackers. This means that guard behavior was focused on damage dealt. If damage came from a source that had lower faction with the mob than the player being dealt damage TO, the mob attacked.

Damage Shield damage counted as damage dealt. I don't know how that might work here with the way they have Damage Shields coded.

[Diggles]

Are we going to see faction hits for kills inside of their respective cities as well?

[Truth]

Are we going to see faction hits for kills inside of their respective cities as well?

we have confirmed was added later, not classic™

[hurtinu]

Everything but a few vendors attacked whoever had the lowest faction.. I remember as a druid if you had thorns on and soemone with higher faction hit you next to a guard the guard would attack you because you ahve lower faction and the thorns hurt the other guy.

[Samoht]

I like the SK scenario most since he's the most likely to get a last hit due to a high damage, instant cast nuke.

An SK works for days on his faction for a city (doesn't matter where - Freeport, FV, Kelethin, Rivervale) and gets it high enough so that it's higher than what yours starts with. He sees you with your unmodified faction sitting next to the guards for their protection.

He attacks you! The guards do not immediately assist.

You decide to fight back. Since he is the aggressor, the guards should not fight you either, right?

You dot him, you turn on auto attack, you start to cast a nuke and then he FD's. Combat ends, but your next tick/swing/cast hits. Suddenly, you're the aggressor, and your faction isn't as good as his.

The guards swarm you.

Assuming they don't insta-gib you, the SK watches and then pops up when you have just a sliver of health left to last-hit you using HT.

You get coined for defending yourself.

If the guards were indiscriminate, they would have defended you outright because the SK attacked. If you fought back, they would have gone after you once the SK was off of their hate list. If the SK feigned in an attempt to steal the last hit, they would have gone after him again, and he would have to wait for FD timer and hope for a second success with guards attacking.

The more I think about it, the more it seems like faction would play no role in that kind of system, which isn't what we're going for at all. There has to be a more sophisticated way to implement it so that three classes don't get a coin-you-at-the-guards-with-guard-help-for-free card, though.

[Slave]

You decide to fight back. Since he is the aggressor, the guards should not fight you either, right?


Of course not. If you aggress him by taking a swing at him, the guards will look at your faction and if it is lower, attack you. It doesn't matter at all who attacked who first. This means that people with lower faction cannot defend themselves in range of guards or they will get attacked. This is the exact way it was.

[nilbog]

He attacks you! The guards do not immediately assist.

The guards should immediately assist if within range.


If the guards were indiscriminate, they would have defended you outright because the SK attacked. If you fought back, they would have gone after you once the SK was off of their hate list. If the SK feigned in an attempt to steal the last hit, they would have gone after him again, and he would have to wait for FD timer and hope for a second success with guards attacking.


I haven't seen how it is coded. It might work exactly like this, but this was what I was saying. The guards should defend you outright because you, a friendly target, were attacked in their presence.

[nilbog]

If you aggress him by taking a swing at him, the guards will look at your faction and if it is lower, attack you. It doesn't matter at all who attacked who first. This means that people with lower faction cannot defend themselves in range of guards or they will get attacked. This is the exact way it was.

Not sure this is exactly how it works atm, but the system was just built. Rogean should be able to respond about specifics.

All mobs in the game displayed this behavior, from griffons and rats to bards, PODs, and gods. It's what made the pvp servers so immersive and amazing.

The current method for adding protection is on an npc by npc basis. I can easily add to all guards, and all guildmasters. I am not sure how performance intensive it would be to make all npcs naturally work like this, though.

[Slave]

The current method for adding protection is on an npc by npc basis. I can easily add to all guards, and all guildmasters. I am not sure how performance intensive it would be to make all npcs naturally work like this, though.

I think that adding mobs of interest within all towns should do it... most other outside mobs are KOS to everyone else anyway and if you manage to faction with them up to Dubious somehow, you could always use them as mobshields against aggressive players.

Wolves and bears saving druids was always awesome to watch though.

[Softcore PK]

Are we going to see faction hits for kills inside of their respective cities as well?

I hope we do; this should be added in even if it's not classic.

[Galanteer]

almost everything assists as had been stated, and only when damage is dealt while the attacker and defender are in assist range. It was possible to stand out of range and nuke a person down and the guards did nothing. (SZ)

I remember watching a friend play an Ogre when the game was three weeks old. Some troll was in Oggok working at the forge, he wanted the forge, kicked the troll, and the guards killed the troll. (RZ) (contradicting my first statement -could have got changed very early)

I remember doing things like faction adjust the scion (luclin times) and the scion would assist. Dungeons like Guk -where you start non kos, could also be used (with a faction adjustment to get just ahead of the other) (SZ)

[Slave]

I remember watching a friend play an Ogre when the game was three weeks old. Some troll was in Oggok working at the forge, he wanted the forge, kicked the troll, and the guards killed the troll. (RZ) (contradicting my first statement -could have got changed very early)


The troll could have had a damage shield on. That would have caused the guards to see the damage and assist on it.

almost everything assists as had been stated, and only when damage is dealt while the attacker and defender are in assist range. It was possible to stand out of range and nuke a person down and the guards did nothing. (SZ)

This is also how I remember it.

[Lemons]

Along with guard assist you should add faction hits, even if its not classic or not. This needs to be put in to retain players. I'm all for grief, but the balance issue between lowbie levels say 1-16 is insane, its to easy for someone to grief you if they are few levels higher then you between those lvls.

There is basically to much grief. The videos on the forums prove it. And it wont stop because its become a trend on the boards to basically show they are killing them off the server.

This whole issue needs a very quick response.

[Dfn]

Shut the fuck up with faction hits already you blue bitches. Seriously, PvE server ----> that way. Guard assist is classic. Guard assist will protect you. You don't need to eliminate PvP in towns. Might as well just make them a safe zone you. Geeze, how blue can you be.

[bamzal]

Along with guard assist you should add faction hits, even if its not classic or not. This needs to be put in to retain players. I'm all for grief, but the balance issue between lowbie levels say 1-16 is insane, its to easy for someone to grief you if they are few levels higher then you between those lvls.

There is basically to much grief. The videos on the forums prove it. And it wont stop because its become a trend on the boards to basically show they are killing them off the server.

This whole issue needs a very quick response.

you've ruined your own lands! you will not ruin mine!

[VanEyck]

Faction assist is cool but for guards and guildmasters only. If every NPC assisted there would be so many cheap little hiding places and pathers killing people. Its not very RP either, what shopkeeper would chase a murderer all around a zone?

I didn't see any mention of faction loss for pvping in a town, and I hope it remains this way. As long as there is a chance of being PK'd by my own race in my own town, I would like the capacity to defend myself.

[Nirgon]

POD did not assist. Spiders/spiderlings did tho.

[lethdar]

Okay so we now have the ability for NPCs to protect pcs vs pcs.

This will require placing a flag on each individual npc type which should assist.

From what I recall, all city guards, and all guildmasters functioned this way.
-City guards
-Guildmasters
Yes?

How about other npcs which protect pcs from npcs
-a_guard - highpass
-a_highpass_citizen - highpass
-explorers, pilgrims, drixies - firiona vie
etc

Discuss.

All npcs would react according to faction, people used to faction farm for zones like chardok, etc just for this reason in pvp. If both players had equal faction then npcs wouldn't interfere.

[Caravelle1]

I had a lot of fun in Qeynos, I would do the tomer instangle quest where he followed me around, then I would attack the priest of discord, tomer would assist me and swing on the PoD, in return a roaming guard would agro PoD, I would respawn and lure the monk guildmasters to PoD, they would assist and it owul dbe 3 level 61 monks versus the PoD, it could go either way since the POD chain Chealed himself

[Truth]

Tweak this so that swarm/charm kiting assist works as well (classic, allegedly broken, haven't got to that point yet).

[Clyve]

Guards definitely assisted higher faction.

I exploited the shit out of this on Rallos Zek. I would wait for erudites to take the boat over to Qeynos and attack them as soon as they got off the boat. The guards would lol until the filthy erudite hit me back, then they would jump his ass.

[Clyve]

All npcs would react according to faction, people used to faction farm for zones like chardok, etc just for this reason in pvp. If both players had equal faction then npcs wouldn't interfere.

If players had any faction above indifferent, they would attack the aggressor.

[Samoht]

I exploited the shit out of this on Rallos Zek. I would wait for erudites to take the boat over to Qeynos and attack them as soon as they got off the boat. The guards would lol until the filthy erudite hit me back, then they would jump his ass.

This is the kind of shit that doesn't need to make it into the game.

[Silikten]

All npcs would react according to faction, people used to faction farm for zones like chardok, etc just for this reason in pvp. If both players had equal faction then npcs wouldn't interfere.

[Silikten]

This is the kind of shit that doesn't need to make it into the game.

This kind of "shit" could save you from being ganked as well. It also coincides with light and dark factions. Darkies can't just get dubi and run in and kill people, they'd need to get amiably or higher.

If you earn the faction then you deserve to reap the benefits.

[Supreme]

Arent we over complicating this?

If you attack a player and that player runs to a guard...the guard should aggro if you attack the player within its aggro range.

The player you attacked is already "aggro" to the guards then the guard will kill the player anyways.

If that player can FD then why would you attack back? Just wait for him to aggro the guards.

Using "faction" levels to determine who the guard does and does not attack is dumb. If you are both non-kos and you attack someone within the aggro range of a guard the guard should attack you.

[Uthgaard]

The higher faction preference didn't go in until SZ went live. Before that, if both players were not kos to a guard, it was as simple as attacking anyone who attacked someone else.

[Bazooka]

The higher faction preference didn't go in until SZ went live. Before that, if both players were not kos to a guard, it was as simple as attacking anyone who attacked someone else.

This, let's keep it simple pals.

[Nirgon]

This is the kind of shit that doesn't need to make it into the game.

Yes, it does, bro.

[nilbog]

guards/guildmasters will protect, pending update.



Specifics as I understand them are currently:

If within range of an npc with pvpassist If non-kos
If attacked by a PC
Aggro PC who attacks you


If I missed something, submit a bug after these changes go live.

Thanks

[Prahadigm24]

Awesome, Nilbog. Thanks much!!

[Slave]

It's a perfect start, but are we not getting faction assist here? Basically that base system will invalidate faction and made it meaningless for PvP which was surely not the case, if that is the ultimate end of the changes you'll make.

[Bazooka]

It's a perfect start, but are we not getting faction assist here? Basically that base system will invalidate faction and made it meaningless for PvP which was surely not the case, if that is the ultimate end of the changes you'll make.

You got guard assist, stfu.

[Truth]

I think for the guard assist allied players could attack a dubious to warmly and guards would look the other way. But that system works too really. Either way is fine by me.


From the pseudo it looks like as long as you are next to a guard it doesn't matter if someone is 500 feet away, if you get nuked guards are gonna aggro them. See above ^


Also, faction assist should definitely be in eventually. It's not priority til I get charm though.