Cleaning Up Our Collective Act

[isitatomic]

So, I've been planning to make this appeal to folks (read: "call some shit out", if that sounds better to you) at one time or another, and after a recent post (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5648&page=8) I think now is as good a time as any. I've gotten several friends psyched about playing here come Friday, and I am usually having a fantastic time myself. I just have to sigh, clearly disappointed about the feces that often passes for acceptable P99 discussion.


There is too much sexist, bigoted and racist bullshit on this planet as it is.

Attempts at making it acceptable because it's the internet is just a copout by those who are afraid to do it face to face with whatever group they are attempting to insult.

I feel no pity for those that are banned for doing such.
.

^^^^ Yes, this. We need to remember that this server is a community ON that planet, however.

Why the rampant bigoted vileness, people? For that matter, why does the above post get a wag of the finger from a few and chuckles from others? And more importantly, isn't such ignorant brainspew, in any form, against community guidelines *specifically* laid out by Nilbog (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1594)?

-----

"Personal attacks are contrary to this spirit and damaging to the work of running this server.There is no rule that is objective and not open to interpretation on what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are absolutely never acceptable:

-Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse."

-----

I've only participated for what, a month? And I've encountered plenty of bigoted, base, and just all around unnecessarily hateful nasty shit in game and on the boards. I generally use the ignore list for its designated purpose while playing and didn't bother making records, but I've collected examples on the fly as I've been reading over posts. Names are left out because I don't want a witch hunt, I want a cogent discussion about what we expect from each other. Claiming your words is your own business, but I won't be arguing with anyone about them because of disclaimer #1. Speaking of...

Three disclaimers are likely necessary:

1) Remind yourself what the text in bold above regarding semantic disagreement states.
2) Saying "suck it up", "grow a pair", [insert machismo-laden retort here] is a cop out and deflects the issue entirely. I'm not talking about "bad words" and "potty language", it's fucking hate from the bowels of the internets and belongs in your kid brother's chatlogs.
3) No, these are not all just from Rants & Flames, and even though SOME of them are (the post I linked to at the top being the most obvious example), that in NO WAY should justify that kind of shit.

Why facepalm you fucking faggot? I'd seriously pay money to play on the server, big deal. Fuck off.

http://i42.tinypic.com/9k5krr.gifi'm not arab dude

well your no 14 year old faggot with no reason to live besides your huge e-penis ...

Hi Toddler.
You're still a fag!

(With regard to above) Yeah, this was my thought.

Too bad Corey was a huge fag and that Aeen never took the reigns of AV. All the fags from Tarew Marr were completely worthless.

a douche calling others out on being douches.
stop being fags (like the biker's the the southpark episode).

Good, less mexicans that way.

Man... James Hetfield turned into such a pussy. Notice the words "sensitive" and the phrase "everyone goes home a winner"
what a fag.

AKA the lowest of the low in the nerd world, a faggot.

Oh shit.
Get Zhraath up in here please, then we can camp treants and not let faggot rogues in.

Ok, its free to play and stuff, but its bad when you see that only 1 ugly faggot can ruin the weekend of 500 people.


Seriously folks? Makes zero sense that I would be ten years older since my first EQ romp, and yet have to time-travel back to the 7th grade to play on P99. So now that we've had a great time puffing our digital chests and finding out who (thinks they've) won, let's either agree to follow clearly posted rules or not. I'd like to think we can do this without some draconian SOE substitute watching our every post and /auc in real time.

Your turn.

P.S. Unbridled Gnome-hate, however, is a MUST at all times, or at least until they outgrow the ability to wear that 5 INT waist for small races (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=914). Fuck that.

[mudvayne1812]

TLDR. If you could rub out an abridged version I might check back.

[TheDudeAbides]

Get over yourself

/thread

[Otto]

Hearts in the right place.

Buuuuut this is the internet.

I called out a buddy one day saying he was being a huge douche online and he's better than that.

He's still a douche online.

AKA I gave up and so should you =P

[Droxx]

Cliff notes:

Read the forum rules against personal attacks (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1594)

I'll outline them here:

1. Quit being a bunch of douchebags.
2. Repeat.

[Shannacore]

Cliff notes:

Read the forum rules against personal attacks (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1594)

I'll outline them here:

1. Quit being a bunch of douchebags.
2. Repeat.

If only. Will never happen.

I wish!

[Kanor]

Yeah OP I love how a cave troll is a normal everyday arab to Karsten. Also the fact that he constantly preys on minorities and people who are overweight.

<--- Gay and proud of it

[Shannacore]

Also the fact that he constantly preys on minorities and people who are overweight.


NOT FAT,
JESUS.

[Tallenn]

I've got a better idea (this is not my idea, btw, I stole it from Southpark): let's re-define the word faggot from a derogatory slur against homosexuals to mean: an annoying, full-of-themselves, loser douchebag, who needs to just shut the fuck up.

That way, when you call someone a fag, you aren't trying to insinuate that they are gay (which is just a set of normal people just trying to live their lives like the rest of us- grow up and pull yourself into the 21st century, for fuck's sake), but rather are saying that they are annoying, nobody gives a shit what they say, and they should just shut up, or go play in traffic.

After all, the definition of the word has already changed several times over the centuries, why not change it yet again?

[TheDudeAbides]

<--- Gay and proud of it

Nobody cares dickbreath

[kevincheese]

This is the internet.

[isitatomic]

First,

Remind yourself what the text in bold above regarding semantic disagreement states.


Second,

The real question I ...

A) apparently didn't point to clearly enough, and
B) threw too much thought behind justifying why it should be asked is....

Why even bother having prominently displayed forum rules if nobody follows or cares to enforce them?

[vaire100]

Makes zero sense that I would be ten years older since my first EQ romp, and yet have to time-travel back to the 7th grade to play on P99

- seasoned players are more than used to filtering out stupid stuff

- because the server is free, underage players and others who cant get credit cards can finally play.

The phenomenon should just simply be ignored like in real life, or you will have to go see a psychiatrist soon.

[Hasbinbad]

Why even bother having prominently displayed forum rules if nobody follows or cares to enforce them?
This.

Most people here do not respect the forum rules at all, for good reason: nobody ever faces any repercussions for their actions, unless someone trashes a GM, then they are all over it like white on rice.

[Loke]

Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.

If you're a full grown adult and get riled up by tasteless "humor" or speech in general, you've got a rough life ahead of you. I think hyper-sensitive, overly serious complainers are far more prevalent than truly intolerant people in our society these days.

In short, while I generally avoid using offensive race/sex/orientation related language.. I really don't care whether or not that language hurts your feelings, because if it does... you need to stop being a pussy.

<3

[Goobles]

RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES
RANTS AND FLAMES

[zel]

Hey Loke, I don't wanna point fingers or anything, but I bet you get mad at this post =x.

[mudvayne1812]

^^ that the nasty above me?

[Hasbinbad]

Maybe awareness is the issue? I know that most of the GMs are good people who have reason to dislike bigots, so I doubt it is from a lackadaisical attitude to bigotry.

I hereby pledge to help change this. Every time someone uses a bigoted term I am going to report it by using the ! in the top right corner, file a petition post in the petition forum, and start a thread in rants and flames calling them out.

If I am not alone, and others do this sort of thing as well, I think we can force the issue enough to where people will see bans happening, and just cut it the fuck out.

[zel]

^^ that the nasty above me?

Tis me.

[mudvayne1812]

^^ Good, thought so =)

[Budah]

Maybe awareness is the issue? I know that most of the GMs are good people who have reason to dislike bigots, so I doubt it is from a lackadaisical attitude to bigotry.

I hereby pledge to help change this. Every time someone uses a bigoted term I am going to report it by using the ! in the top right corner, file a petition post in the petition forum, and start a thread in rants and flames calling them out.

If I am not alone, and others do this sort of thing as well, I think we can force the issue enough to where people will see bans happening, and just cut it the fuck out.

I'll click a little red button to stop having to read all the horrible, offensive, crap some people go through the trouble to type. The thing I hate most about certain posters on these forums (any forums really) is that most of the time they have no regards for the feelings of those they are NOT trying to insult.

[Hasbinbad]

I'll click a little red button to stop having to read all the horrible, offensive, crap some people go through the trouble to type. The thing I hate most about certain posters on these forums (any forums really) is that most of the time they have no regards for the feelings of those they are NOT trying to insult.
It would be better if you can post a petition thread about it instead I think.. I am not 100% sure that the ! posts are seen by all GM's.

[isitatomic]

1.)


AKA I gave up and so should you =P
If only. Will never happen.
I wish!
This is the internet.

The phenomenon should just simply be ignored like in real life.

Actually, I tend to make use of my spine and confront people and issues, not shrivel when they get hard (lol omg).

2.)

If you're a full grown adult and get riled up by tasteless "humor" or speech in general, you've got a rough life ahead of you.

I really don't care whether or not that language hurts your feelings, because if it does... you need to stop being a pussy.

<3

My post has nothing to do with "tasteless humor or speech in general". You're putting a strawman in my mouth and that's L-A-M-E. And so, allow me to reciprocate: You have just called Nilbog a pussy

3.)

I know that most of the GMs are good people who have reason to dislike bigots, so I doubt it is from a lackadaisical attitude to bigotry.

I hereby pledge to help change this. Every time someone uses a bigoted term I am going to report it by using the ! in the top right corner, file a petition post in the petition forum, and start a thread in rants and flames calling them out.


Word, sounds productive. No surprise that GMs haven't jumped on the chance to lurk the boards in search of severely ignorant bullshit to filter while their server is continuously nerd raged upon.

4.)

Can't believe how successful Kanor has been at trolling around as a stereotypical gay dude. Gratz, I guess.

[Hasbinbad]

Word, sounds productive. No surprise that GMs haven't jumped on the chance to lurk the boards in search of severely ignorant bullshit to filter while their server is continuously nerd raged upon.
Yeah, pretty much.

Also, if people want to bring bigots to my attention, I will be the asshole and make public call out posts. Just privately petition/report them, then send me a PM with a link, and I will report, petition, and make a RnF about them being bigots.

[Elendae]

The anonymity of the internet has bred some downright hateful shit and I don't think it's simply a matter of "lawl ignore it dude/dudette". Most of us are probably rather thick-skinned when it comes to certain slurs/jokes, but I'd be pretty mortified at some of the things said on here if I hadn't known what to expect. (not to mention if I found my younger brother reading some of these posts)

[Modus]

I think hyper-sensitive, overly serious complainers are far more prevalent than truly intolerant people in our society these days.

I think isitatomic is a troll, an anti-troll, luring trolls into his troll lair by self-righteously calling the other trolls trolls.

You've all been trolled.

[mrgoochio]

Maybe awareness is the issue? I know that most of the GMs are good people who have reason to dislike bigots, so I doubt it is from a lackadaisical attitude to bigotry.

I hereby pledge to help change this. Every time someone uses a bigoted term I am going to report it by using the ! in the top right corner, file a petition post in the petition forum, and start a thread in rants and flames calling them out.

If I am not alone, and others do this sort of thing as well, I think we can force the issue enough to where people will see bans happening, and just cut it the fuck out.

i salute you and award you +1 internets!

[YendorLootmonkey]

you need to stop being a pussy.

This. My parents give me this same advice nearly constantly.

[Omnimorph]

Really? Someone's QQing over the language and bigotry?

Just grow up, why throw the toys out of the pram just because someone used a word you don't like? The reason people haven't been banned is because the GM's are sensible.

Hey, on an ideal forum in an ideal world there would be no arguments, and if there were, both parties would lay out their argument, pick logical flaws with their opposition's counter arguments, and after everyone has had their say, agree on who won or compromise.

This is the internet, and that doesn't happen. You disagree with someone and they're an idiot, they'll forego logic and call you a fag. In which case you should see that you're wasting your time on them and move on.

[Gwence]

How ignorant of you to immediately assume people using the word fag are describing a derogatory term in relation to a homosexual.

–verb (used with object)
1.to tire or weary by labor; exhaust (often fol. by out): The long climb fagged us out.
2.British. to require (a younger public-school pupil) to do menial chores.
3.Nautical. to fray or unlay the end of (a rope).
–verb (used without object)
4.Chiefly British. to work until wearied; work hard: to fag away at French.
5.British Informal. to do menial chores for an older public-school pupil.
–noun
6.Slang. a cigarette.
7.a fag end, as of cloth.
8.a rough or defective spot in a woven fabric; blemish; flaw.
9.Chiefly British. drudgery; toil.
10.British Informal. a younger pupil in a British public school required to perform certain menial tasks for, and submit to the hazing of, an older pupil.
11.a drudge.

The bolded one is my favorite

Also, the OP is a fag.

[JaVeDK]

While I agree with the OP, I've come to the conclusion that there is just no way of changing this, so you might as well try to live with it.

I'm extremely disappointed in the trolling and general level of rudeness mainly on these boards, but to a certain degree also in game. My expectations were that very few who never played the original EQ would be drawn to this project, and thus the average age would be well over 25. My hopes were that this would create a much more mature environment/atmosphere with no, or very few, immature selfish jerks - like you find in abundance in most other online games.

Needless to say, that is not the case.

[Grento]

Really? Someone's QQing over the language and bigotry?

Just grow up, why throw the toys out of the pram just because someone used a word you don't like? The reason people haven't been banned is because the GM's are sensible.

Hey, on an ideal forum in an ideal world there would be no arguments, and if there were, both parties would lay out their argument, pick logical flaws with their opposition's counter arguments, and after everyone has had their say, agree on who won or compromise.

This is the internet, and that doesn't happen. You disagree with someone and they're an idiot, they'll forego logic and call you a fag. In which case you should see that you're wasting your time on them and move on.

Then they should change the rules to reflect what ever policy is being followed. If not, what other rules are we allowed to break without being punished?

[Hasbinbad]

Then they should change the rules to reflect what ever policy is being followed. If not, what other rules are we allowed to break without being punished?
This.

[Humerox]

This is what we'd like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jr9hPbYmBo

And this is what we get:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ7mLJK4X5I

Oh wellz. :(

[jilena]

Maybe I have just been doing "the online thing" for too long. I have long since reached the point where words in the general sense no longer offend me. I am not saying I am immune to having my feelings hurt or my buttons pushed, but it will be the intent of the individual saying the things that bother me rather than the words themselves.

I can watch people call each other jews, faggots, ******s, pussies, spics, crackers, nerds, pedos, losers, fat basement dwelling jobless retards, whatever without feeling the need to call my local congressman and tell him what's what. Typically the intent on the internet is a combination of harmless poking of fun combined with anonimity opening up the vocabulary most people look around the room before using IRL. Am I saying this is classy and should be encouraged? Hardly. I'm not gonna have a little cry over it though. I can watch Finawin call half the forum pussies without finding myself offended that someone would imply the inferiority of women (or cats) by using such terminology...

These words by themselves and their use in a general sense may not be held in the best regard, but I think the alternative of censoring everything that might offend someone is much worse. Where do you draw the line? Some people are offended by sexuality, some people bathroom humor, some religion, etc. Shall we dumb all conversation down to the point that there is no flavor or substance and everyone spends more time trying not to offend anyone than they do actually saying anything? I bet even then someone would still be offended.

My opinion changes when words become directed toward someone with the deliberate intent of hurting that person. People being called fat who have a weight problem, people being picked on for their race or sexual preferences, etc etc. The point where it becomes directed insults or even harassment it becomes something different all together. This I believe should be discouraged and fought as needed. This is a fairly friendly place for the most part and no one deserves to be singled out and abused. I tend to avoid namecalling myself as most forum denizens really need little to no help in making themselves look ridiculous. That's not to say I am above a little trolling for personal amusement.

Of course all of these opinions are moot (yes not mute jc so many people say this) as this is a privately owned/operated forum and server and those in charge and those they deputize can mete out justice and drop the banhammer where they see fit.

TL;DR - Down with censorship; Harassment = Bad; Sticks and stones my friend; P99/EQEMU = NOT a democracy.

I forget anything?

[jilena]

Then they should change the rules to reflect what ever policy is being followed. If not, what other rules are we allowed to break without being punished?

LOL seriously? Where do you live that every broken rule is immediately punished? Or even the majority of them?

Rules are there so when they do decide to punish you they can be like "You were warned... You chose to break the rule."

While this may sound crazy, people skate by breaking rules all the time and may never get caught and/or punished even once. People speed on the highway, cheat on their taxes, cut in line, lie, steal, etc... Hell there are even a good number of unsolved murders out there. It doesn't make any of it right or fair but it happens and the world goes on turning without even noticing. Crazy I think.

I would be willing to wager there is not a single person in the world over the age of like 12 that has never lied, cheated, stolen, or broken some rule at some point in their life and got away with it.

TL;DR - Everybody gets away with breaking the rules on occasion.

Also, that tl;dr was originally everybody cheats which now has everybody hurts by rem stuck in my head. I hate you all. And you most of all ADHD!

[Grento]

Maybe I have just been doing "the online thing" for too long. I have long since reached the point where words in the general sense no longer offend me. I am not saying I am immune to having my feelings hurt or my buttons pushed, but it will be the intent of the individual saying the things that bother me rather than the words themselves.

I can watch people call each other jews, faggots, ******s, pussies, spics, crackers, nerds, pedos, losers, fat basement dwelling jobless retards, whatever without feeling the need to call my local congressman and tell him what's what. Typically the intent on the internet is a combination of harmless poking of fun combined with anonimity opening up the vocabulary most people look around the room before using IRL. Am I saying this is classy and should be encouraged? Hardly. I'm not gonna have a little cry over it though. I can watch Finawin call half the forum pussies without finding myself offended that someone would imply the inferiority of women (or cats) by using such terminology...

These words by themselves and their use in a general sense may not be held in the best regard, but I think the alternative of censoring everything that might offend someone is much worse. Where do you draw the line? Some people are offended by sexuality, some people bathroom humor, some religion, etc. Shall we dumb all conversation down to the point that there is no flavor or substance and everyone spends more time trying not to offend anyone than they do actually saying anything? I bet even then someone would still be offended.

My opinion changes when words become directed toward someone with the deliberate intent of hurting that person. People being called fat who have a weight problem, people being picked on for their race or sexual preferences, etc etc. The point where it becomes directed insults or even harassment it becomes something different all together. This I believe should be discouraged and fought as needed. This is a fairly friendly place for the most part and no one deserves to be singled out and abused. I tend to avoid namecalling myself as most forum denizens really need little to no help in making themselves look ridiculous. That's not to say I am above a little trolling for personal amusement.

Of course all of these opinions are moot (yes not mute jc so many people say this) as this is a privately owned/operated forum and server and those in charge and those they deputize can mete out justice and drop the banhammer where they see fit.

TL;DR - Down with censorship; Harassment = Bad; Sticks and stones my friend; P99/EQEMU = NOT a democracy.

I forget anything?

I agree to some extent but my problem isn't the content. It's the fact that rules are being broken and nothing is being done about it. You can't expect a large group of people to follow the rules if they know that some are OK to break without repercussion. MMO's generally have a very large population of people that look for any way to get ahead, this means taking advantage of gray areas and walking the line between what will get you banned and what will get you a slap on the wrist.

I like this server and I want it to have a large diverse population, that is not going to happen if people see they can break rules.

[Grento]

LOL seriously? Where do you live that every broken rule is immediately punished? Or even the majority of them?

Rules are there so when they do decide to punish you they can be like "You were warned... You chose to break the rule."

While this may sound crazy, people skate by breaking rules all the time and may never get caught and/or punished even once. People speed on the highway, cheat on their taxes, cut in line, lie, steal, etc... Hell there are even a good number of unsolved murders out there. It doesn't make any of it right or fair but it happens and the world goes on turning without even noticing. Crazy I think.

I would be willing to wager there is not a single person in the world over the age of like 12 that has never lied, cheated, stolen, or broken some rule at some point in their life and got away with it.

TL;DR - Everybody gets away with breaking the rules on occasion.

Also, that tl;dr was originally everybody cheats which now has everybody hurts by rem stuck in my head. I hate you all. And you most of all ADHD!

All I am saying, is you can't expect people to follow the rules if you don't enforce them all.

Any parent knows this, any teacher knows this, anyone in a position of power knows this. If I let my employees come late once without repercussions, they will do it all of the time, it really is that simple.

[jilena]

I agree to some extent but my problem isn't the content. It's the fact that rules are being broken and nothing is being done about it. You can't expect a large group of people to follow the rules if they know that some are OK to break without repercussion. MMO's generally have a very large population of people that look for any way to get ahead, this means taking advantage of gray areas and walking the line between what will get you banned and what will get you a slap on the wrist.

I like this server and I want it to have a large diverse population, that is not going to happen if people see they can break rules.

Well kinda going back to what I said in my longer post, I think if people are constantly being harassed and nothing is done (and this is not the case) then I see this as being bad. There being a blanket rule that you should avoid saying overly offensive things I think is more in place to avoid people getting way out of control. I don't think the intended purpose is to stop people from playfully calling each other "fags" in the rants and flames forum.

I dunno...

[guineapig]

If you're a full grown adult and get riled up by tasteless "humor" or speech in general, you've got a rough life ahead of you. I think hyper-sensitive, overly serious complainers are far more prevalent than truly intolerant people in our society these days.

In short, while I generally avoid using offensive race/sex/orientation related language.. I really don't care whether or not that language hurts your feelings, because if it does... you need to stop being a pussy.

<3

Yeah, tell me how well this works out for you in the work place.

[jilena]

You know I hear more random bigotted shit in the workplace than I ever do anywhere outside the internets. Then again I tend to avoid extremely racist or otherwise hate filled people in my personal life. Much harder to do when you are forced to work with them.

[Gwence]

I like this server and I want it to have a large diverse population

No Canadians PLEASE for the love of god NO CANADIANS!!!!!

[guineapig]

Basically, people use slurs as a simpleton way to burn others on the forums.
If that's the best you can do to win an argument then you fail.

I've been in plenty of debates with people on these forums and never had to break any forum rules in order to get my point across. I point out when people have to resort to name calling (and spell checking) in order to make a comeback and by simply calling them out, the rest of the community can see them for who they are.

I see absolutely no need to change the rules here. There are plenty of ignorant forums on the internet; feel free to "express yourselves" in those ways there.

[guineapig]

You know I hear more random bigotted shit in the workplace than I ever do anywhere outside the internets. Then again I tend to avoid extremely racist or otherwise hate filled people in my personal life. Much harder to do when you are forced to work with them.

Sadly in many places this may be true but it doesn't negate the fact that at least in theory charges could be brought against these people for doing such on the job. So actually, real life follows the same basic principals as these forums do.

Like I said, (and this isn't aimed directly at you), there are places where it's considered okay but this isn't one of them.

I personally don't get offended by much of anything but I still refuse to stoop to that level.

[Gwence]

I've been in plenty of debates with people on these forums and never had to break any forum rules in order to get my point across. I point out when people have to resort to name calling (and spell checking) in order to make a comeback and by simply calling them out, the rest of the community can see them for who they are.



Congrats that's awesome, but Eminem would tell you:

"Guineapig don't gotta cuss in his raps to sell his records;
well I do, so fuck him and fuck you too!"

[SpartanEQ]

Internet forums are like roads and highways, once an otherwise timid and "normal" person gets behind the wheel they can turn into an idiot. You have to have your own personal filter; just drive in the slow lane and let 'em go.

[jilena]

I just drive a large vehicle so it's harder for them to kill me.

[Loke]

Yeah, tell me how well this works out for you in the work place.

Umm, pretty good? O_o

[Danth]

If you want a pretty good forum devoid of juvenile antics, find one utilized mostly by older folks (say 40+). On one forum I follow, I haven't seen a stronger word than "damn" since I started reading it. A forum full of college-age youth (and adults not much older) will unsurprisingly harbor a lot of juvenile behavior. On the other end of things, find a forum frequented primarily by 12-16 year old kids and it'll make THIS board look like a haven of logic and rationality by comparison. I don't fault juveniles for acting like such; however, the older adults (say, older than mid 20's) who continue acting like that ought to be ashamed of themselves.

I've used internet discussion boards for a long time, since the early 90's--back when usenet newsgroups were all the rage (remember alt.games.everquest?). Many other folks reading this forum probably remember those days. Then, as now, the worst boards were the un-moderated boards, and particularly those boards associated with topics frequented by younger posters. Most forum readers know the same small, vocal group creates a major portion of the problem posts. That's true on any forum. Some directed moderation can go a long way towards setting an example for behavior.

Posts devoid of content--particularly posts utilizing 'memes'--annoy me more than language used. Lots of young to middle age folks swear in casual conversation. Only 'mentally handicapped', on the other hand, constantly interject with empty noise. 'In before the lock', 'cool story bro', and such worthless drivel fall into that category.

Danth

[guineapig]

Congrats that's awesome, but Eminem would tell you:

"Guineapig don't gotta cuss in his raps to sell his records;
well I do, so fuck him and fuck you too!"

Nice reference!
Hope you don't mind but I'm using this quote for a little bit. :D
Shame it doesn't rhyme...

[guineapig]

Shame it doesn't rhyme...

Okay so it rhymes... but the rhythm is a little off.

[jilena]

It's eminem that's sorta his thing.

[Omnimorph]

I just drive a large vehicle so it's harder for them to kill me.

Not quite sure how this analogy translates to forum posting...:confused:

and yeah, i work in a pretty racist enviroment at work, i just ignore it though.

[jilena]

It was in reference to the highway analogy someone else posted. Quoting makes things too easy to understand.

[Malrubius]

While I agree with the OP, I also agree with what others have said - this probably won't change without the concerted effort of the admins and a significant portion of the community.

There are forums out there (yes, on the internet of all things) in which it is rare to see this kind of crap. But those forums are monitored and the ban hammer is instantaneous if the rules are violated. Eventually people get used to it, and the ban hammer is rarely brought out.


Like others have posted, I've also grown completely numb to the obviously ignorant or obvious attention-seeking spew. It doesn't affect me in the least anymore...which I suppose is kind of sad...oh well.

BUT, I do recognize that this stuff hurts the server and trivializes the community. There are people who I am almost embarrased to show P1999 to, because they'll see this crap, they'll lol, and they'll never come back.

To the "tough guys" out there who say "aww, they can't handle it - they need to grow up and stop being <enter whatever 11-year-old derogatory term here>" - I'd say you are wrong. Most people can handle it just fine (it isn't exactly hard). It is just so laughably immature that a LOT of people just tune out and don't want to be associated with the innanity of it all.


So I'll also throw out an appeal to Rogean, Nilbog, and the rest of the team. Please enforce the posting rules. I think the majority of us will snap into shape and be happy to help by reporting the few remaining rulebreakers. I believe that a mature community (whether enforced or otherwise) is going to be a lot bigger and more healthy in the long run.

Okay, flame away haters. :D

[Hasbinbad]

So I'll also throw out an appeal to Rogean, Nilbog, and the rest of the team. Please enforce the posting rules. I think the majority of us will snap into shape and be happy to help by reporting the few remaining rulebreakers.
This.

[jilena]

Or the forums will be filled with boring inane posts about what people had for breakfast. No one will be offended. Nothing interesting or funny will ever be said. And life will go on. I don't think overmoderation is any better than no moderation.

If every post is pure drivel (or "dribble" as I have seen used in like 10 posts on here) whether it's offensive or not doesn't matter. I'd rather read funny offcolor/offensive posts than boring "mature" posts.

Sure if it's a response to every post "eat a bag of dicks" gets old quick. But a well placed "fag!" as the only response to a huge well thought out post will still illicit a real out loud laugh. I guess this makes me juvenile or at least means I find humor in the juvenile... Either way I don't think I am alone in finding this sort of thing funny in moderation. I am not saying the forum should ever be allowed to turn into /b/ but there is a reason so many post there... A lot of people find that sort of humor...well...funny?

*shrug*

[Malrubius]

I like the well-placed juvenille commnent too. But I think that the value of these rare zingers is less than the value of a good forum. And by "good", I mean one that is not a cesspool.

On the bright side (if the forum rules were to be enforced) - most of the juvenille comments are neither well-placed nor funny (nor even intended to be funny).

[jilena]

Yeah... I guess I am just not seeing where this has been out of control on this forum? I mean sure people aren't having the deepest of conversations but for the most part even the arguments are semi-civil with a few exceptions.

And really... This is a classic EQ server. Hardcore EQ players ARE the same people on /b/, something awful, foh forums, etc.

[JaVeDK]

These words by themselves and their use in a general sense may not be held in the best regard, but I think the alternative of censoring everything that might offend someone is much worse. Where do you draw the line? Some people are offended by sexuality, some people bathroom humor, some religion, etc. Shall we dumb all conversation down to the point that there is no flavor or substance and everyone spends more time trying not to offend anyone than they do actually saying anything? I bet even then someone would still be offended.

I have to disagree with you Jilena. Cleaning up ones language and acting civilized is the exact opposite of "dumbing" the conversation down. It's a testament to the sad decline of the English language (of which I am not even a native speaker BTW), that people are unable to communicate with proper words in a respectful manner. It seems that sounding cool and using the right buzz words and gangster slang is more important than the actual content. In many circles a well thought out and concisely formulated argument somehow loses out to an outrageous and, apparently, funny insult. I'm not saying that I never smile at a well crafted insult, but I cannot get behind the notion that it's somehow more interesting or cool to be a funny jerk than an intelligent gentleman.

Or the forums will be filled with boring inane posts about what people had for breakfast. No one will be offended. Nothing interesting or funny will ever be said. And life will go on. I don't think overmoderation is any better than no moderation.

If every post is pure drivel (or "dribble" as I have seen used in like 10 posts on here) whether it's offensive or not doesn't matter. I'd rather read funny offcolor/offensive posts than boring "mature" posts.

Sure if it's a response to every post "eat a bag of dicks" gets old quick. But a well placed "fag!" as the only response to a huge well thought out post will still illicit a real out loud laugh. I guess this makes me juvenile or at least means I find humor in the juvenile... Either way I don't think I am alone in finding this sort of thing funny in moderation. I am not saying the forum should ever be allowed to turn into /b/ but there is a reason so many post there... A lot of people find that sort of humor...well...funny?

*shrug*

I also disagree that you have to use offensive language to make a post interesting or funny. All it shows is that one lacks the capacity to compose something truly original and funny in an intelligent way.

Fart jokes, people falling flat on their face and swear words might be funny on occasion, but to most people they get old fast and if you don't have anything else to bring to the table, no one will take you seriously or respect you.

[Omnimorph]

Or the forums will be filled with boring inane posts about what people had for breakfast. No one will be offended. Nothing interesting or funny will ever be said. And life will go on. I don't think overmoderation is any better than no moderation.

If every post is pure drivel (or "dribble" as I have seen used in like 10 posts on here) whether it's offensive or not doesn't matter. I'd rather read funny offcolor/offensive posts than boring "mature" posts.

Sure if it's a response to every post "eat a bag of dicks" gets old quick. But a well placed "fag!" as the only response to a huge well thought out post will still illicit a real out loud laugh. I guess this makes me juvenile or at least means I find humor in the juvenile... Either way I don't think I am alone in finding this sort of thing funny in moderation. I am not saying the forum should ever be allowed to turn into /b/ but there is a reason so many post there... A lot of people find that sort of humor...well...funny?

*shrug*

Eat a bag of fags, dick!

see what i did there? mixing it up from time to time is always nice :p

More to the point though, ops shouldn't need to waste their time patrolling the forums. I do find most of the cussing at people to be mildly amusing, but like mentioned if every post was just arbitrarily affronting the person posting before you it would take away the point of the majority of the threads here. (admittedly most of them are unrelated to EQ at the moment, but hopefully that'll change :D)

[mitic]

<--- Gay and proud of it

well, iam straight and not proud of it since it is normal to be straight. same applies to gay ppl cause they are, rolldrum, normal too.

wondering why gay ppl are getin mocked ? because of statements like yours. you aint special sir.

[Bones]

Hearts in the right place.

Buuuuut this is the internet.

I called out a buddy one day saying he was being a huge douche online and he's better than that.

He's still a douche online.

AKA I gave up and so should you =P

This.

While I agree (and probably the majority of the people on here) with what Hasbin is trying to convey,
This is the internet and nobody really gives a shit (or just act like they don't) what they say, because there are no real world consequences.
Trying to convince people that what they are saying on these forums is wrong will get you nowhere because they most likely already know it is wrong and just don't care.

[Grento]

well, iam straight and not proud of it since it is normal to be straight. same applies to gay ppl cause they are, rolldrum, normal too.

wondering why gay ppl are getin mocked ? because of statements like yours. you aint special sir.

You believe being proud of something means you feel that you are special? That doesn't make much sense.

I am proud of who I am but I don't think I am special because of who i am.

[Hasbinbad]

This is the internet and nobody really gives a shit (or just act like they don't) what they say, because there are no real world consequences.
I dunno man, I have talked to several people who have been pretty upset by the hate posted on these threads. Most of those people are also not outspoken enough to say anything about it, but they are genuinely upset at people being able to mock the rules at their expense.

[Aarone]

"Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world."
- The Buddha

[Bones]

I dunno man, I have talked to several people who have been pretty upset by the hate posted on these threads. Most of those people are also not outspoken enough to say anything about it, but they are genuinely upset at people being able to mock the rules at their expense.

Naw, I understand that.
I was talking about the people doing the hate posting (the ones who just don't give a shit what they say), not the people receiving.

[mitic]

You believe being proud of something means you feel that you are special? That doesn't make much sense.

I am proud of who I am but I don't think I am special because of who i am.

being proud to be gay is more or less a self protective mechanism. might be valid in RL (still a shot in their own foot imo) but on the internets in an onlinegame? give me a break man.

[Bones]

Naw, I understand that.
I was talking about the people doing the hate posting (the ones who just don't give a shit what they say), not the people receiving.

Edit:
Although honestly, people shouldn't let anything said to them over a forum post get to them no matter how ignorant or out of line.
Why you may ask? Because the people spewing the shit our of their mouths are the ones who have something to be ashamed of.

[Hasbinbad]

Naw, I understand that.
I was talking about the people doing the hate posting (the ones who just don't give a shit what they say), not the people receiving.
Aha. Sorry.
Yeah, that's my point. There's no consequences for breaking the rules right now. These jackasses are laughing in the face of the GM posted rules at the expense of people who are experiencing the short end of the hate stick.

[Aarone]

Although honestly, people shouldn't let anything said to them over a forum post get to them no matter how ignorant or out of line.
Why you may ask? Because the people spewing the shit our of their mouths are the ones who have something to be ashamed of.

Hear, hear!!

[isitatomic]

I guess it's not surprising that most chose the personal attack route because it's so damn easy, instead of addressing the POLICY issue. Has it gone completely over your heads that I'm simply in support of a set of rules chosen by the developers of P99? Judging by everyone's reactions, it seems that if most any part of the forum rules appeared in some post, unlabeled, you'd be saying - "lol omg wtf is this butthurt QQ-ing?"

So, it's now blatantly obvious that GMs feel one way about conduct on their server, and the community generally could care less about their utopic, stalinist, pussified bullshit rules that will never be followed. THIS is the disconnect that needs to be addressed, not my supposed never-gonna-make-it-in-life inability to handle naughty words.

Let's:

1. ENFORCE the rules (mentioned ad nauseum already)
2. CHANGE the rules to be more realistic
3. SCRAP the rules altogether

I don't care HOW you feel about ME, I defy you to say that none of the above options are a needed solution.

Epilogue - A civil, well-considered post regarding the state of server conduct with supporting proof being moved to R&F is palpable irony. Also, you giving up with belligerent ignorance at work, at your friend's house, or wherever has absolutely nothing to do with me, it simply means that you apparently waffle easily. A lot of your cutesy netflexing may have intimidated other less vocal folks into sitting down and making promptly with the STFU, that just happens to not be my style. Nothing we say makes any difference anyhow until a GM gives enough of a shit to post something.

[jilena]

I have to disagree with you Jilena. Cleaning up ones language and acting civilized is the exact opposite of "dumbing" the conversation down. It's a testament to the sad decline of the English language (of which I am not even a native speaker BTW), that people are unable to communicate with proper words in a respectful manner. It seems that sounding cool and using the right buzz words and gangster slang is more important than the actual content. In many circles a well thought out and concisely formulated argument somehow loses out to an outrageous and, apparently, funny insult. I'm not saying that I never smile at a well crafted insult, but I cannot get behind the notion that it's somehow more interesting or cool to be a funny jerk than an intelligent gentleman.

My point wasn't so much that it's impossible to be funny without being vulgar so much as that almost all humor is at someone's expense. No matter what the topic is someone is bound to be offended. If we do away with everything that could possibly be construed as offensive we eventually reach a point that it gets to be ridiculous.

I am 100% with you in banning people who post nothing but complete shit or spew nothing but anger angst hate whatever... Again the occasional "EAT A BAG OF DICKS BITCH" is funny. But someone who posts nothing but "FAG!", "YOU FAIL AT LIFE", "I HOPE YOU DIE IRL", "CHOKE TO DEATH ON THAT DOUGHNUT FATTY!", "CRY MORE NOOB" in every single response is obviously not contributing to the forum in any meaningful manner. No one will miss these people. I just think being TOO strict is asking for a pretty fail boring place.

Also please consider that some of us have been dealing with people online for a LONG time, we are pretty desensitized to what some might find offensive. I mean I was looking at violent images, reading disturbing forum posts, and viewing scat porn on BBSes before some of the members of p99 (tralina for instance) were literally even born. It takes a LOT to offend me or gross me out. I have been to the internet, I have seen things, what has been seen cannot be unseen. As such I have a pretty twisted sense of humor and I am guessing this is also common in a good number of p99 folks.

This is not an excuse for acting the fool obviously, but disapproving of our indifference or tolerance of such behavior is a bit unfair. I can find much better things to be offended about and waste energy on than someone being called a faggot on a gaming message board. *shrug*

[isitatomic]

Also, about Hasbin's threads citing various people...


-If you support them, then SAY SO.

-If you think they are a ridiculous authoritarian witch hunt and general waste of time, then move to CHANGE OR SCRAP THE RULES.


It's not that complex a situation, folks. I for one ultimately don't care which happens.

[Bhutt]

Glad to see we have Hasbinbad here to "police" things.

There are times in life that people just need to suck things up. Listen kid, I'm sorry you've had a bad home life, people have picked on you, etc. Grow a sack. Go join the military or something.

Last I checked, it's America. If you're acting like a jackass I have every right to call you out on it.

You're acting no different in your postings then the people calling you names. In my opinion, you're worse.

[jilena]

Let's:

1. ENFORCE the rules (mentioned ad nauseum already)
2. CHANGE the rules to be more realistic
3. SCRAP the rules altogether

I don't care HOW you feel about ME, I defy you to say that none of the above options are a needed solution.

I feel bad taking the low road here. But seriously, none of the solutions above are needed. Why? Because this is a moderately active message board at best for an emulated game. What happens here matters not the tiniest bit in the end. The board is probably seeing twice its usual postings because the server is down but once it's back up, the average joe user will go back to playing the game and the same people who sit here calling each other fags all day will go back to calling each other fags all day.

This is hardly a life or death situation, no small children or kittens are being threatened, and in the end no one here is gonna go to leave the forums and cry themselves to sleep tonight over anything said here. I just don't think that many people care.

That all said, rules are rules and should the GMs/Devs/Mods choose to enforce them I wouldn't see any issue with it. I just don't think that the situation is so dire that DEMANDING action from those in charge is really necessary. People are here for the server, not the message boards.

[ulrich]

I very rarely post on the forums, because of the attacks I received months ago.
It's worse than the Wow forums with all the vulgarity!!!
What if you wanted your 11year old daughter to play p1999. Than someone directs her to the forums? You come home from work and she says what does "explicit words" mean daddy? Someone called me this.
"You will say don't let your kids go on the internet" that's just an excuse.
These forums could be a great knowledge base for new and old players. Plus people could have normal conversations without being called names by the endless trolls.


I think they should do away with the rants and flames section. <This would help a lot.

People can go to other websites like foh forums if they want to attack people for what they did in-game or whatever.

[jilena]

Not to state the obvious but I have never seen a single thing posted on this forum that you couldn't find 10X as bad on google in 30 seconds. If you let your kids use the internet unsupervised you are essentially introducing them to ANYTHING horrible you could think of and at least 10 million more things you never thought of. That's how the internet works. It's not for kids and neither are most online games. *shrug*

[Bones]

Glad to see we have Hasbinbad here to "police" things.

There are times in life that people just need to suck things up. Listen kid, I'm sorry you've had a bad home life, people have picked on you, etc. Grow a sack. Go join the military or something.

Last I checked, it's America. If you're acting like a jackass I have every right to call you out on it.

You're acting no different in your postings then the people calling you names. In my opinion, you're worse.

Everything in bold you should have just left out. It completely invalidated your argument.
That kinda shit is exactly what he is talking about in this thread.
Personal attacks accomplish nothing except prove to everybody that reads this that you have issues yourself and need to make yourself feel better IRL.
Unless that was what you were trying to accomplish, then by all means please keep it up.

Last I checked, it's America. If you're acting like a jackass I have every right to call you out on it.

Ironic.

[isitatomic]

The board is probably seeing twice its usual postings because the server is down but once it's back up, the average joe user will go back to playing the game and the same people who sit here calling each other fags all day will go back to calling each other fags all day.

There is absolutely a degree of validity to this. I certainly wouldn't be posting *as much* if playing were on option this past week.

People are here for the server, not the message boards.

A point you seem to have missed is that playing EQ is, with infrequent exceptions, a game that RELIES on SOME notion of community. Engaging with and being a part of that community is often expected of you so that a guild, for instance, knows what kind of players they are going to be recruiting. It seems you're doubting the usefulness of the boards to begin with, which may very well be a question worth asking. But there is definitely a good amount of useful info to be found here as long as you don't wander into BS land, which is decidedly hard to avoid.

[ulrich]

Not to state the obvious but I have never seen a single thing posted on this forum that you couldn't find 10X as bad on google in 30 seconds. If you let your kids use the internet unsupervised you are essentially introducing them to ANYTHING horrible you could think of and at least 10 million more things you never thought of. That's how the internet works. It's not for kids and neither are most online games. *shrug*

It's schools too that allow children on the net unsupervised. I guess everyone could home school their kids. Now with wifi and laptops.... hard to stop.

In highschool we had someone supervising AND a network admin at the library. My classmate would still put hardcore porn up on half of the pc's before we left. So when the next person used that pc. Bam they would get an eye full. You can't say a parent can supervise their kid 100percent of the time. They do have to go to school and all.

[Bhutt]

Everything in bold you should have just left out. It completely invalidated your argument.
That kinda shit is exactly what he is talking about in this thread.
Personal attacks accomplish nothing except prove to everybody that reads this that you have issues yourself and need to make yourself feel better IRL.
Unless that was what you were trying to accomplish, then by all means please keep it up.



Ironic.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[mgellan]

Please enforce the posting rules. I think the majority of us will snap into shape and be happy to help by reporting the few remaining rulebreakers. I believe that a mature community (whether enforced or otherwise) is going to be a lot bigger and more healthy in the long run.

Hear hear.

[jilena]

A point you seem to have missed is that playing EQ is, with infrequent exceptions, a game that RELIES on SOME notion of community. Engaging with and being a part of that community is often expected of you so that a guild, for instance, knows what kind of players they are going to be recruiting. It seems you're doubting the usefulness of the boards to begin with, which may very well be a question worth asking. But there is definitely a good amount of useful info to be found here as long as you don't wander into BS land, which is decidedly hard to avoid.

I am not really missing that fact. I am one of the people who obviously has some degree of love for the forums when I can't play for whatever reason. That said I don't really feel the situation here is that out of hand most days. There is probably a lot more noticable vulgarity and insults flying about with the server down. I think things will calm down a bunch post Friday and people aren't trying to fill hours of their day doing things they usually spend 5 minutes on lol.

[jilena]

It's schools too that allow children on the net unsupervised. I guess everyone could home school their kids. Now with wifi and laptops.... hard to stop.

In highschool we had someone supervising AND a network admin at the library. My classmate would still put hardcore porn up on half of the pc's before we left. So when the next person used that pc. Bam they would get an eye full. You can't say a parent can supervise their kid 100percent of the time. They do have to go to school and all.

I understand what you're saying but the sad reality is there is no sane way to keep your children from being exposed to the adult world. The best you can do is educate them the best you can and try to foster some sort of open relationship where they are not scared to discuss new and strange things with you...

From my perspective assuming I ever have children, knowing the things I did as a child, I'll be overjoyed if their only vices are disturbing internet porn and being message board bigots that spew racial slurs and insult people without cause lol.

[Hasbinbad]

Ironic.
Quite.

[isitatomic]

well, iam straight and not proud of it since it is normal to be straight. same applies to gay ppl cause they are, rolldrum, normal too.

wondering why gay ppl are getin mocked ? because of statements like yours. you aint special sir.

Dear Mitic,


Can't believe how successful Kanor has been at trolling around as a stereotypical gay dude. Gratz, I guess.

Cordially,
Me

[Bones]

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Ill admit to that. However I feel it was much deserved.

[isitatomic]

I am not really missing that fact. I am one of the people who obviously has some degree of love for the forums when I can't play for whatever reason. That said I don't really feel the situation here is that out of hand most days. There is probably a lot more noticable vulgarity and insults flying about with the server down. I think things will calm down a bunch post Friday and people aren't trying to fill hours of their day doing things they usually spend 5 minutes on lol.

The quotes I collected are not a product of boredom while waiting for the server to be up, I started that a while ago (timestamps were erased with the names) when I noticed my ignore list was A LOT bigger than it used to be. The impetus for creating the thread, on the other hand, was. It just happened to be the most recent and blatantly obvious example of a line being crossed.

[Malrubius]

I think that those who keep saying that people are offended by the drivel are missing the real problem.

Few are offended...but many (most?) newcomers will instantly lose all respect or interest for any site, or product, or game (or whatever the forums are for), when they read stuff like this. As I said before, most people who see that crap will just lol and move on.

I was frankly surprised that tentonhammer wrote about Project 1999. I think that sort of thing would be much more common, and much more positive, if we presented ourselves as a mature community for a mature product.

Yeah - this probably needs to be enforced to actually change. But again, I think its well worth it.

Bah, I'm rambling. Go read the SoD forums and consider what comes to mind when you think about SoD.

[Bones]

I think that those who keep saying that people are offended by the drivel are missing the real problem.

Few are offended...but many (most?) newcomers will instantly lose all respect or interest for any site, or product, or game (or whatever the forums are for), when they read stuff like this. As I said before, most people who see that crap will just lol and move on.

Have to disagree. Forum rants hardly reflect the quality of gameplay on p1999.
If anybody is turned away from this awesome awesome server because of rants and trolling they are reading on this forum, then I pity them.
Also, there are more "I love p1999 and can't wait to play again" posts than there are flames and rants.

Plus, out of the 600 or more people who play p1999, I think there are less than 100 or so who even pay attention to the forums on a regular basis.

[Grento]

I think that those who keep saying that people are offended by the drivel are missing the real problem.

Few are offended...but many (most?) newcomers will instantly lose all respect or interest for any site, or product, or game (or whatever the forums are for), when they read stuff like this. As I said before, most people who see that crap will just lol and move on.

I was frankly surprised that tentonhammer wrote about Project 1999. I think that sort of thing would be much more common, and much more positive, if we presented ourselves as a mature community for a mature product.

Yeah - this probably needs to be enforced to actually change. But again, I think its well worth it.

Bah, I'm rambling. Go read the SoD forums and consider what comes to mind when you think about SoD.

This is a good point.

At the end of the day I think it safe to assume that we all want this server to feel like a real EQ server population wise.

[mitic]

but many (most?) newcomers will instantly lose all respect or interest for any site, or product, or game (or whatever the forums are for), when they read stuff like this. As I said before, most people who see that crap will just lol and move on.

sorry to say but you are completely wrong!

newcomers (mostly eq-vets) are solely and foremost interested in this to see if it is worth to play here:

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/miticeq/numbers.jpg

[mitic]

sorry to say but you are completely wrong!

newcomers (mostly eq-vets) are solely and foremost interested in this to see if it is worth to play here:

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/miticeq/numbers.jpg

they want people to group with and this server is the first valid classic server with enough players ... drama is everywhere and some forum posts surely wont hold them to play on P99

[isitatomic]

they want people to group with and this server is the first valid classic server with enough players ... drama is everywhere and some forum posts surely wont hold them to play on P99

Regardless of how anyone feels, I don't even see the point in arguing this if it's already been stated that

Stupid posts, lies, and drama are scaring away new players

[Malrubius]

Regardless of how anyone feels, I don't even see the point in arguing this if it's already been stated that

Wow, thanks. I actually did not recall seeing that. And it's the FIRST line of the forum rules!...

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1594

Glad Nilbog feels the same way. Now if it would only be enforced.

[atvaata]

this thread is shitting up my internet space.

Al gore would not approve

[isitatomic]

this thread is shitting up my internet space.

Al gore would not approve

If you were attempting to make the most useless/irrelevant comment in 10 pages of text...

http://jamiedubs.com/fuckflickr/data/web/you-win-an-internet.jpg

[Shmeeggeggy]

Reply 100! I win!

[Hasbinbad]

Reply 100! I win!
Actually, that was reply #99, not counting the OP as a "reply."

THIS is reply #100.

[atvaata]

If you were attempting to make the most useless/irrelevant comment in 10 pages of text...

http://jamiedubs.com/fuckflickr/data/web/you-win-an-internet.jpg

if you think QQing about trolls and random bullshit will make a difference, let me reciprocate your image.


http://jamiedubs.com/fuckflickr/data/web/you-win-an-internet.jpg

[atvaata]

damnit i img tagged twice.. damn being at work and typing too fast.

[Nedala]

Dont you think the staff has enough to do with the DDoS attacks,bug fixes other ingame stuff ect?

I really understand why you want people to follow the forum rules; but i dont really care about the forum behavour, i think the biggest part of the community dont even post here.id rather have the GMs work on ingame stuff than palying forumtroll police. This whole project is not their fulltime job.

[atvaata]

RnF isnt subject to much moderation so it's typically ignored unless youre calling out Admins.

[Shmeeggeggy]

Actually, that was reply #99, not counting the OP as a "reply."

THIS is reply #100.

Oooh, yousa tricky one Mr. Hasbin.

[Grento]

Dont you think the staff has enough to do with the DDoS attacks,bug fixes other ingame stuff ect?

I really understand why you want people to follow the forum rules; but i dont really care about the forum behavour, i think the biggest part of the community dont even post here.id rather have the GMs work on ingame stuff than palying forumtroll police. This whole project is not their fulltime job.

I think that one of the concerns is whether or not selective moderation and enforcement on forums carries over to the game also. I am pretty sure this is not the case but it is a valid concern.

[isitatomic]

RnF isnt subject to much moderation so it's typically ignored unless youre calling out Admins.

Thread wasn't posted in RnF. Quotes were not taken solely from RnF.

damnit i img tagged twice.. damn being at work and typing too fast.

S'okay, learning how to use your new internet can be a grueling endeavor. Take your time.

[atvaata]

Well, the threads in RnF now!

I've been using the internets that al gore created for 10ish years, my bad for making a typo and not being able to edit it :P

[Hasbinbad]

DAMN YOU ROGEAN AND WHALE!!!
DAMN YOU ROGEAN AND COW!!!

[vaire100]

See a doctor if the internet bothers you.

Its not apathy on our part -- its obession on yours. Like I said, ignore it or you will probably see a psychiatrist when life becomes unlivable for you.

There is science behind this view, not merely anecdotal observation.



http://www.severe-social-anxiety.com/Cognitive_Therapy_OCD.html
http://www.ocdonline.com/articlephillipson6.php
http://www.livinglifefully.com/faultfinding.htm

[jilena]

Yeah I guess I can kinda maybe sorta understand being upset when someone says something offensive but what was posted here last night and this morning seemed to take that a bit too far lol.

[isitatomic]

Attention vaire and all others who are still progressing (you can do it!) along the path to adult literacy:

For the most part the R&F is unmoderated. That doesn't mean that you can use racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities).

It just means you have a place that you can bicker with one another and not clog up the main forum.

There is no rule that is objective and not open to interpretation on what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are absolutely never acceptable:

-Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.

"but omg wtf i have science GMs n there stupd rules need doctorz" is something you can take up with one of the above.

[vaire100]

I appreciate your obession. Try smoking some weed though.




Owning Truth

We all periodically have such confidence in what we are saying that statements such as "I'm sure of it" or "The fact of the matter is..." play a natural part of our everyday vocabulary.

For persons with OCPD, facts and confidence are all too often turned into "I'm RIGHT and your WRONG."

"The way I see it represents the way it is, end of story".

For others, refusing to yield to the "correct perspective" often entails encountering tension and discord.

This manifestation of OCPD entails one's adamantly guarding his dogmatic beliefs to such a degree that casual conversation often converts minor disagreements into heated debates.

The relative importance of any topic (i.e. comparing the effects of regular gas vs. high test on a particular car's performance) rarely is of consequence in determining the degree of the intensity expressed in the midst of the debate.


Perhaps there are a few variables on this planet, which are beyond debate in their apparent universal truthfulness. "Humans are a living organism when there is a heart beat and/or brain activity" or "Rocks eventually tend to drop in a downward direction when released into the air."

For the person who experiences OCPD, abstract ideals and moral standards become rigidly held truths.






sounding more familar yet....

[vaire100]

I'm only breaking your balls.

You should contact Rogean or another admin type, and express your interest in becoming a volunteer moderator, because you were familiar with this BB software and cared about the community, etc....

Everyone knows the world is fucked up so save your breath, is my point. Actually think about what you can personally do besides acting like you're the only person to realize this. That sounds more like depression and its serious. Whatever!

[Bones]

I appreciate your obession. Try smoking some weed though.

Owning Truth

We all periodically have such confidence in what we are saying that statements such as "I'm sure of it" or "The fact of the matter is..." play a natural part of our everyday vocabulary.

For persons with OCPD, facts and confidence are all too often turned into "I'm RIGHT and your WRONG."

"The way I see it represents the way it is, end of story".

For others, refusing to yield to the "correct perspective" often entails encountering tension and discord.

This manifestation of OCPD entails one's adamantly guarding his dogmatic beliefs to such a degree that casual conversation often converts minor disagreements into heated debates.

The relative importance of any topic (i.e. comparing the effects of regular gas vs. high test on a particular car's performance) rarely is of consequence in determining the degree of the intensity expressed in the midst of the debate.


Perhaps there are a few variables on this planet, which are beyond debate in their apparent universal truthfulness. "Humans are a living organism when there is a heart beat and/or brain activity" or "Rocks eventually tend to drop in a downward direction when released into the air."

For the person who experiences OCPD, abstract ideals and moral standards become rigidly held truths.

Much insight in that post.
And I have seen alot of the above mentioned scenarios taking place in pretty much ever single thread that has ever been posted here so far.
Gonna use something from there in my signature, dunno what line yet as they are all good.

[jilena]

Stand back! I'm going to use science! <magic happens>

Let's go back to implied insults to get things fired back up! We have someone insinuating we have some barely literate folks in the audience, so I'll take the crybaby insults!

Anyway. While I have a hard time being offended by anything said on the internets I guess that some people have a very thin skin and a bit of the "world revolves around me" view of reality and thus can take offense to anything said whether it be directed their way or not... I get it, feelings get hurt for all sorts of reasons. I guess I am just baffled how these people survive walking outside the door to their house, how they watch TV, read the news paper, or interact with anyone or anything in the outside world. How do they make friends? How do they make it through each day without simply cutting their wrists from all the bleeding feelings?!

I work with a pretty diverse group, at least in terms of race/religion/creed/nationality/political views, etc... Yet I could count over 9000 things that get said or done per day that would leave anyone so sensitive as to be offended by the things aid on this forum in tears... And this is easily the most TAME place I have worked in terms of bigotry in the work place...

So yeah. QQ more nubs!!!

I am better than you because I'm rubber you're glue anything people say that could be construed as offensive by someone somewhere in the world bounces off me and ricochets to stick to you!!

[Finawin]

LOL I left for, what? 2 days?

I missed this gem of crybaby bullshit?

[L2Phantom]

I do find it sad how this server's community is worse than that of WoW. It's pretty disgusting. That's one aspect of this server that will never be entirely classic.

[jilena]

Dude I don't know what classic you played lol. This shit is beyond tame compared to what was found in OOC in Sebilis on any given day on the Nameless. Not to mention any guild in any MMO I have ever played that was capable of accomplishing anything was full of racism, sexism, and disturbing humor... The first time I clicked through /b/ was like coming home to EQ classic.

[L2Phantom]

Tunare was very tame and friendly. The community would get together and make sure the immature douche fags would get banned or at the very least suspended and warned. It was, by far, my favorite community to this day.

Alas, it's gone and now the entire internet is like WoW/b/. Fail.

[jilena]

I find that really weird, was that server maybe an unofficial RP server or something? Cuz every EQ server I played on was similar to the nameless minus the TWs, and all the EQ people I have encountered in games after that had similar senses of humor.

[isitatomic]

I find that really weird, was that server maybe an unofficial RP server or something? Cuz every EQ server I played on was similar to the nameless minus the TWs, and all the EQ people I have encountered in games after that had similar senses of humor.

Luclin was really not bad at all... the only caveat being that LoS had a monopoly on both lewtz and toolishness. Easily avoided.

[fishingme]

lol, those are hilarious, i think i like the mexican one the most

[Judgement]

These forums simply need a moderator. My experience in-game is appreciably different than my experience on these forums. Almost everyone is cool in game...even some of the most reprehensible folks from the forums.

It's clear that enforcement of the rules clearly set forth aren't being carried out because the devs don't have time to do it, nor, I will venture, do they want to deal with the liability of disciplining all but the most overt offenses. Or perhaps other reasons which aren't important.

I believe this community is a good enough community to deserve that kind of discipline. Not censorship, but a simple shedding of the chaff.

I think we should choose a moderator, with the devs' blessing, or accept one of their choosing. I believe that moderation's scope ought to be expanded beyond the obvious unnecessary drivel to include posts which promote the server's endangerment, such as blatant mention of torrented clients, and the like.

We cannot expect every follower of p1999 to behave intelligently, therefore it would be wise to extend the free service of moderation to them.

If anyone has thoughts or suggestions of candidates, it might be worth mentioning.

[isitatomic]

It's clear that enforcement of the rules clearly set forth aren't being carried out because the devs don't have time to do it, nor, I will venture, do they want to deal with the liability of disciplining all but the most overt offenses. Or perhaps other reasons which aren't important.

We cannot expect every follower of p1999 to behave intelligently, therefore it would be wise to extend the free service of moderation to them.

If anyone has thoughts or suggestions of candidates, it might be worth mentioning.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ok_Nb0_rRDg/SRZIh_-mm4I/AAAAAAAACFU/QCxcjAtknhE/s400/a_winner_is_you_1024.jpg

[guineapig]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ok_Nb0_rRDg/SRZIh_-mm4I/AAAAAAAACFU/QCxcjAtknhE/s400/a_winner_is_you_1024.jpg

God I loved that game! Starman and King Slender FTW!!! :D

[Scrooge]

Hearts in the right place.

Buuuuut this is the internet.

I called out a buddy one day saying he was being a huge douche online and he's better than that.

He's still a douche online.

AKA I gave up and so should you =P

This is very true, and I've also had friends who are "normal in person", but completely "the opposite online"....which I could never understand.

[Barkingturtle]

Luclin was really not bad at all... the only caveat being that LoS had a monopoly on both lewtz and toolishness. Easily avoided.

Hahaha, you are wrong.

The Luclin boards are where the Barkingturtle persona was forged, and I am easily the most offensive thing ever born of the internets. I am like Tubgirl puking into Goatse while he buttfucks a Down Syndrome baby upon whom's forehead someone has tattooed a swastika.

[isitatomic]

Hahaha, you are wrong.

The Luclin boards are where the Barkingturtle persona was forged, and I am easily the most offensive thing ever born of the internets. I am like Tubgirl puking into Goatse while he buttfucks a Down Syndrome baby upon whom's forehead someone has tattooed a swastika.

1.) Actually I'm pretty sure the post to which I replied wasn't speaking exclusively about server boards; I know I wasn't. People who did that kind of shit in game were shot down. The biggest issue was scamming, which I never fell for anyway.

2.) Avoiding tools is a skill, what can I say.

3.) Down Syndrome and swastikas more or less define my taste in cinema (http://badmintonstamps.com/zarchive0610.html#799).

Crispin Glover is a lot weird.

[jilena]

I guess I just still don't see there being some huge issue here.

[Finawin]

I guess there is if you're a massive bitch who can't handle the rigors of everyday life, and the internet in general.

[Elendae]

You've obviously missed the point.

[Finawin]

I've missed absolutely nothing. The onset of this wave of bitches is disgusting.

I like to kill and pillage on EQ but these letters on my screen are offensive. That false sense of morality is fucking retarded and pathetic.

[Danth]

Most normal folks don't care to live in a slum full of graffiti, rubbish, and stinking of excrement. Nor do most folks care to put up with the online version of such. In both cases, a small portion of the community creates said problems, and in both cases, the offenders typically deny the harm in their actions.

I have to disagree with your opinion of things, Fin.

Danth

[Elendae]

Haha, christ. Please take your sad chest-beating displays of dominance elsewhere, Finawin. Like I said, you've clearly missed the point.

[Finawin]

Lol let's not try to compare REAL LIFE living arrangements in a dangerous, filthy, shitbucket of a city or section of a city to a videogame.

I suppose I'm just more fit to handle life than most. I'm not going to cry like a fucking child when people say "mean stuff" to me on the internet.

Please take your "sad emo display of being a bitch" elsewhere. Listen to some bad music, cut yourself in a corner while weeping about the mean stuff the kids said about you on the internet.

[Danth]

If you think a discussion forum is itself some sort of game, then that must explain your internet tough guy demeanor here. You're normal enough on IRC.

Since you're doing the aggressive tough guy thing, I'll ask you directly Fin--Why? Do you think it's funny? Witty? Clever? Do you pat yourself on the back for pwning people? I doubt it. You're not an imbecile. So--why?

If I didn't see you in more reasoned states elsewhere, I'd think you were just another twit.

Danth

[guineapig]

I guess there is if you're a massive bitch who can't handle the rigors of everyday life, and the internet in general.

This thread is specifically about racist, sexist and bigoted comments on the forums.

If you are pro racist, bigotry or sexism please feel free to explain to us why.

[Elendae]

Dude, how old are you.. really? Emo insults? Wow.

This isn't about not being able handle "mean stuff" on the internet. I think most people know what to expect when they browse the internet in general in its entirety. The deal is, this is more or less a private community, with a defined set of rules on racism/sexism/etc. It reflects poorly on the community as a whole when every asshole with a keyboard spews a bunch of bigotry, joking or not.

Ya, there aren't filters in real life. I wouldn't expect there to be. A forum with rules set up like this isn't real life. It's more akin to a business or w/e. I found this project through the PennyArcade forums, so I will use them as an example. The community is top-notch and every thread doesn't degrade into a flame-war. It ain't hard to do, it takes a bit of sense and maturity, and that's basically it.

[Finawin]

I just don't believe in overt censorship for the sake of the soft-skinned that are too ill equipped to handle even the slightest of "crudeness" presented to them.

Attacking people directly with racism, bigotry in general, etc. is terrible and in no way do I condone it.

But, if I call someone a fag it has absolutely nothing to do with their sexual orientation, of which I am completely in the dark on, anyways. Everyone here knows the fucking difference and in no way should the entire board be punished for the actions of a few retards going out with intent to hurt feelings.(though the idea of someone's feelings being hurt over the forums or in-game is...fucking sad to me)

What's next, no profanity? Ugh.

[JaVeDK]

I just don't believe in overt censorship for the sake of the soft-skinned that are too ill equipped to handle even the slightest of "crudeness" presented to them.

Again you either completely missed the point, or are deliberately trying to ignore it to better suit your viewpoint.

At this point, you're really just trolling, so why even bother...

[Finawin]

What, are people going to get banned for saying, "This thread is gay." now, simply because some people out there may feel offended?

I see bullshit in OOC on a regular basis filled with America bashing, military bashing, etc. Do I fucking cry foul? No, I fight back. Ignorance can be fixed. Stupidity can not be fixed.

[Barkingturtle]

If you are pro racist, bigotry or sexism please feel free to explain to us why.

Frankly I can't fault anyone for their views, for whatever reason, and likewise I wouldn't fault someone for expressing them regardless of how controversial they may be. Ignorance is really its own punishment, anyway.

I don't know anyone here well enough to determine if I'm in the midst of legitimate racists or homophobes or what have you, but I kind of wish I was because they'd have to be more fun to read than you bunch of sorry gaytards.

[guineapig]

Frankly I can't fault anyone for their views, for whatever reason, and likewise I wouldn't fault someone for expressing them regardless of how controversial they may be. Ignorance is really its own punishment, anyway.

I don't know anyone here well enough to determine if I'm in the midst of legitimate racists or homophobes or what have you, but I kind of wish I was because they'd have to be more fun to read than you bunch of sorry gaytards.

That's brilliant homes, you rock on.

[Malrubius]

Yeah, I don't know anybody who is soft-skinned about this stuff (as in, being offended). I have a hard time even imagining that. It's more the folks who lol, or even rofl, and then move on. I know more than one person in RL who has done that.

Again, think about SoD's forums. Keep thinking about them. Wait for it... Okay, now it should be clear to all :D

[Finawin]

Lol awesome trolling man, proves a point other than what I was getting at.

[Barkingturtle]

proves a point other than what I was getting at.

Never take candy from a gay?

[Bones]

About to do this thread some justice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw

[isitatomic]

About to do this thread some justice.

Good idea. Pretty sure Finawin and a few others are just stuck in perma-brorage mode after getting thoroughly owned by Brüno a few years ago.

Bringing back memories yet, bros?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhP0tOm6yt0

[Finawin]

What in the fuck are you going on about?

Bruno? Bros?

[Barkingturtle]

I watched Bruno on a bootleg DVD where you could see the backs of people's heads and hear them laughing all throughout the movie. Then there was that part when he's pitching his show to that stiff room full of executives and he just starts helicoptering his cock around and the people shrank down in their seats and there was some nervous laughter but mostly everyone was just sort of intimidated into silence and subservience by this huge phallus taunting from the screen. I imagine that's how people feel when I walk into a room.

[Bones]

Good idea. Pretty sure Finawin and a few others are just stuck in perma-brorage mode after getting thoroughly owned by Brüno a few years ago.

Bringing back memories yet, bros?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhP0tOm6yt0

looooool

[jilena]

P A R T Y! PARRTTYYYY WOOOOOOOO

[Audacious93c]

lol Isitatomic wins this thread lolol

[Finawin]

Is the point of this thread to whine as hard as possible?

If that is the case they have surely beat everyone else by a wide margin.

WAAAAAAAH WORDS WAAAAAAAAH

[jilena]

I'd like to take this moment to QQ a little. BRB.

[Bones]

I loved the ending.
"Austria gay TV? What do you mean gay TV? Get the fuck outta here!"

[jilena]

I wonder how many times he has gotten beaten up doing shit like that lol. I mean I love him for making me laugh but some people have no sense of humor lol.

[mitic]

I wonder how many times he has gotten beaten up doing shit like that lol. I mean I love him for making me laugh but some people have no sense of humor lol.

well, imagine it would have been you showing your arse in gay tv :D

[jilena]

I have worked in a gay bar I don't give a fuck about gay men seeing my ass lol. You can just look at this thread though and find plenty of people who would have been offended and tried to kick his ass. Sensitive people.

[mitic]

I have worked in a gay bar I don't give a fuck about gay men seeing my ass lol.

http://www.dahmus.org/blogimg/fry-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

[jilena]

If I was ever a gay cartoon I think I'd wanna fuck Fry. Just sayin.

[Barkingturtle]

I'm neither gay nor cartoon and I'd at least tickle his taint a little bit.

[Elendae]

I see a few people have been banned; I still really think they were missing the point. This shouldn't have to lay on the forum moderators, it's not about restricting speech (although there likely needs to be some sort of precedence set), it's basically just thinking about what you're typing before you post it. You know, being mature, and respectful.

It benefits the reputation of the community and goes a long way towards attracting new members.

[Shannacore]

I see a few people have been banned; I still really think they were missing the point. This shouldn't have to lay on the forum moderators, it's not about restricting speech (although there likely needs to be some sort of precedence set), it's basically just thinking about what you're typing before you post it. You know, being mature, and respectful.

It benefits the reputation of the community and goes a long way towards attracting new members.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[isitatomic]

I still really think they were missing the point.

There are still folks around who yearn for them Confederate glory days. Missing the point is second nature to some people, and there just comes a point where it's not worth it to keep trying. Internets often exacerbate this.



This shouldn't have to lay on the forum moderators

I dunno, whatever responsibilities they are down for having is their business. Actually I had my own ideas for a solution, but the more important issue is making sure what was already decided in the way of community norms is being respected.


it's not about restricting speech

Well yeah actually, restricting speech is exactly what it's about. If you're lawful, the one doing the restricting is you, and if not it's someone who has authority over you. Ideally, positive liberty is the way to go. The liberty TO manage your own speech ("You have the right to remain silent...") and decide what is and is not appropriate based on a given set of guidelines. Negative liberty is the reason for negative consequence, granting the lawful among us freedom FROM guideline infractions.

Judging from your phrasing I can assume you are also from the US, as we tend to hold a peculiar notion of the issue of "free speech" compared to other folks. Generally speaking you can say most anything UNLESS: 1) it falls under hate speech 2) it is either meant OR likely to incite violence ("fighting words").

Or of course, 3) it is deemed by the folks who run their own private server/online community, in which you are allowed to take part, to be worthy of banhammaz or other pwning mechanisms.


it's basically just thinking about what you're typing before you post it. You know, being mature, and respectful.

For those of us (read: most of us) who can handle such a monumental and challenging feat.



It benefits the reputation of the community and goes a long way towards attracting new members.

http://obamiconme.pastemagazine.com/entries/images/a6/86/1247792/original_image.png?1245399367

[Mordachai]

so it's ok to insult confederates now? so confused

[isitatomic]

so it's ok to insult confederates now? so confused

IF you can prove that confederates are a currently viable political force, then by all means, please consider using the following to call me out:


Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) are not allowed.




If you're simply trolling for shits and giggles, I kindly invite you to make with the STFU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PaHcZUHI00&feature=related).

[Mordachai]

no i wasn't trolling and i'm really not going to get involved in a bunch of e-peen waving with you, thanks.

but pretty much insulting the heritage of a lot of folks (whether or not that heritage had misguided intentions in the past is irrelevant) pretty much comes across as painting you as a holier-than-thou person who can tear down the 'ignorant southerners' because we don't know any better anyway.

so to sum up in the language you seem to prefer now... shut the fuck up and i don't need a youtube video to say it for me.

[Kyronix]

Viable has nothing to do with whether or not a belief is political or not, the green party is fucking worthless but Nader run's every year and viable or not, its still a completely valid political belief. And the term "Hate speech" is misleading because ultimately it is protected under the constitution. As long as it doesnt impose a "clear and present danger" its pretty much free speech, to elaborate words that "by their very nature, involve danger to the public peace and to the security of the state" are also punishable, however when from small groups this is overlooked. And ultimately hate speech doesn't "usually" call for action and is usually just rhetoric so there is often no recourse.

[isitatomic]

E-peen waving is not possible as mine crusted over and fell off years ago.

Basically: Leave your idea of heritage not being properly venerated and whatnot at the door. I guess I put too much confidence in all potential readers to fully understand my analogy without getting emotional. Allow me to spell it out for you, sans drama, just the facts.


The Confederate States of America...

*Known predominantly for fighting to preserve the practice of slavery

*Lost the civil war

*Wound up on the wrong side of history


Let's assume that we all understand that the CSA was dissolved MORE THAN A CENTURY AGO. Let's also assume that "the glory days" MUST have existed prior to its dissolution. Assuming all of this (which is safe to do, because they are things called "facts"), the glory days were the days of slavery.

Missing the point of the Union's success and subsequent emancipation serves as a reminder that some people are just always going to miss the point.

[Kyronix]

E-peen waving is not possible as mine crusted over and fell off years ago.

Basically: Leave your idea of heritage not being properly venerated and whatnot at the door. I guess I put too much confidence in all potential readers to fully understand my analogy without getting emotional. Allow me to spell it out for you, sans drama, just the facts.


The Confederate States of America...

*Known predominantly for fighting to preserve the practice of slavery

*Lost the civil war

*Wound up on the wrong side of history


Let's assume that we all understand that the CSA was dissolved MORE THAN A CENTURY AGO. Let's also assume that "the glory days" MUST have existed prior to its dissolution. Assuming all of this (which is safe to do, because they are things called "facts"), the glory days were the days of slavery.

Missing the point of the Union's success and subsequent emancipation serves as a reminder that some people are just always going to miss the point.

Common misnomer, Slavery was not the main issue when it came down to it, it just happened to be one of the most important once History was written. It was mainly about states rights. As most know we had a union that had so LITTLE federal government, it fell apart and the the size had to increase enough to stabilize it as a whole, and the confederates opposed this.

I'm not saying slavery was not an issue, but when people call it out as the huge single issue of the Civil war I kinda laugh because its absolutely wrong, especially when you finally read into things, beyond a public school education.

Also the CSA being disolved has nothing to do with them being viable as I said, the tenets of an organization can live on, and the independence, liberty and self governance that the CSA initially stood for, lives on in both of our main political parties today, some more than others.

[Barkingturtle]

You know, being mature, and respectful.

Hold the fuck on. This is the flames and rants section, right? I mean, this is the section of the board where we quarantine the most toxic of posts so they don't infect the pure gold that gets posted everywhere else, correct?

See, I'm not sure what folks are doing here if they don't want to read and respond to posts that are vitriolic in nature. Honestly, dipshits, what's the point of having an F&R section if we're limited to civilized, impersonal debate? Just consolidate it all into Off-Topic. This is the part of the board where I should be able to question your dad's sexuality, suggest your mother performs fellatio for narcotics, recommend various methods for you to end your life, allude to the fact that you're a pedophile, etc etc.

[isitatomic]

Viable has nothing to do with whether or not a belief is political or not, the green party is fucking worthless but Nader run's every year and viable or not, its still a completely valid political belief. And the term "Hate speech" is misleading because ultimately it is protected under the constitution. As long as it doesnt impose a "clear and present danger" its pretty much free speech, to elaborate words that "by their very nature, involve danger to the public peace and to the security of the state" are also punishable, however when from small groups this is overlooked. And ultimately hate speech doesn't "usually" call for action and is usually just rhetoric so there is often no recourse.


This isn't all that bad for taking a stab in the dark. Kudos to you for arguing about the "Letter vs. Spirit" doctrines without even knowing what they are!

Unfortunately for you though, most of this was either yanked from the wikis, the googles, or your asshole (or all three?)

CHECK: Correct, viability has makes no difference there, kudos again! It was a rhetorical challenge, because I was referencing centuries-old politics anyway. If you think nilbog includes "150yr old political entities" in his concept of what entails protected political subjects, you sir... are a tool. Oh, and - FUCK THE WHIGS!!!

MATE: Hate speech IS NOT something that private institutions are willing to split hairs on. Sure, it's not codified, you are legally able to stand on the sidewalk spewing bigoted nonsense *until* you are eventually cited for any number of other minor infractions at any rate. Shit like that happens all of the time (car searches anyone?). The moment you go to work, to school, to the store, or P99 for that matter, things change. Go ahead and try to file suit against your employer when you're fired for spouting racial epithets all day at work citing your first amendment rights. /popcorn

[isitatomic]

[insert "Tea Party" talking points here]

Cool, so basically you have nothing to call me out on and you just want a venue to decry the injustices done to the good citizens of the CSA, and like, slavery wasn't that big a deal.

Keep posting and let's just pretend that I actually reply.

[Hasbinbad]

FUCK THE WHIGS!!!
Edmund Burke is rolling in his grave at you, SIR.

[isitatomic]

Hold the fuck on. This is the flames and rants section, right? I mean, this is the section of the board where we quarantine the most toxic of posts so they don't infect the pure gold that gets posted everywhere else, correct?

You joined late, so I forgive you this one post.

You see... my first post, originally in Server Chat, was shitted up by the very Barkingturtle-like personas who love spewing that signature RnF quality rectal gold, hence the move. Now that it's floating in the abyssal depths of regurgitated newbie scrotum, new posters act accordingly. One of the many ironies to be found in this thread.

[Kyronix]

CHECK: Correct, viability has makes no difference there, kudos again! It was a rhetorical challenge, because I was referencing centuries-old politics anyway. If you think nilbog includes "150yr old political entities" in his concept of what entails protected political subjects, you sir... are a tool. Oh, and - FUCK THE WHIGS!!!
Its not the entities, its the values held. And you are right that nilbog does not include the "150yr old political entity" but they still held certain political values that are incredibly relevant today, and I was pointing out that you were basically pissing and moaning but than poking fun or defaming a political belief that is not your own (I assume) so you are ok with it. So talk about missing the point...

MATE: Hate speech IS NOT something that private institutions are willing to split hairs on. Sure, it's not codified, you are legally able to stand on the sidewalk spewing bigoted nonsense *until* you are eventually cited for any number of other minor infractions at any rate. Shit like that happens all of the time (car searches anyone?). The moment you go to work, to school, to the store, or P99 for that matter, things change. Go ahead and try to file suit against your employer when you're fired for spouting racial epithets all day at work citing your first amendment rights. /popcorn

No they don't put up with that shit, and having been in private sector, its because of liability and public image. Once it does go over the line the employer is the party responsible regardless of who was spouting it. And you agree to not do those things based on your contract of employment or suffer the consequences, often times termination. So yes things change and as P99 is owned by a private party, there are terms that must be followed to participate. I'm not saying I should be able to run around and shout fag all over the zones and tell everyone to go screw a goat, I in fact agreed with your postings for the most part, but you talk like such a high horsed douche bag it gets annoying.

[Hasbinbad]

you talk like such a high horsed douche bag it gets annoying.
Oh, the humanity!

a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, esp. one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

[Mordachai]

Its not the entities, its the values held. And you are right that nilbog does not include the "150yr old political entity" but they still held certain political values that are incredibly relevant today, and I was pointing out that you were basically pissing and moaning but than poking fun or defaming a political belief that is not your own (I assume) so you are ok with it. So talk about missing the point...



this. thank you for seeing the point i was making. it's easy to point out what one considers a shortcoming in others, especially when the person doing the pointing can't see when they do it just as much.

ideally, this thread would end with if you don't make the rules, or enforce them, then you need to be the one shutting up, and i don't care which side you're on, and yes that includes me.

(and please never promote the crusaders to positions of power, it'll be book burning and witch trials next)

[Hasbinbad]

(and please never promote the crusaders to positions of power, it'll be book burning and witch trials next)
Do you happen to float on water?

[Aarone]

I'm sorry - with this thread onto its 19th page, I think that the following scene is LONG overdue...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA

[Hasbinbad]

I'm sorry - with this thread onto its 19th page, I think that the following scene is LONG overdue...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA
Didn't even watch, I know that scene by heart.

Just because some watery tart threw a sword at you is no basis for a system of government!!

[isitatomic]

I'm sorry - with this thread onto its 19th page, I think that the following scene is LONG overdue...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rAaWvVFERVA


Come on man, dying before that glorious age of 21 is inexcusable. Berkshire Brew Drayman's Porter. You know what I'm talking about.

[Aarone]

Come on man, dying before that glorious age of 21 is inexcusable. Berkshire Brew Drayman's Porter. You know what I'm talking about.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=17&pictureid=90


:D:D:D

[Mordachai]

Do you happen to float on water?

no! you won't be burning me at the stake!! :(

[Gwence]

Jesus no one cares Isitatomic. Why dont you go crusade in real life where it actually matters?

This is an EQ emu server, the only thing we care about is everquest.

[Humerox]

^^ Flame alert! :D

[atvaata]

Jesus no one cares Isitatomic. Why dont you go crusade in real life where it actually matters?

This is an EQ emu server, the only thing we care about is everquest.


^^ this

[Ridas]

Fags

[isitatomic]

Jesus no one cares Isitatomic.

Too true, too true. 200 posts of total /ignore. Excellent detective work, son.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfUj4QJGnok#t=0m12s

[Gwence]

Yea 200 posts while the server was down and almost all of it was people egging you on.

[Malrubius]

I agree with most of your posts, so was kind of surprised that you threw this out there as a "fact"...


The Confederate States of America...

*Known predominantly for fighting to preserve the practice of slavery


I'm not from the south or anything, but this always struck me as kind of a...fringe opinion by historical revisionists?

In any case, it's hardly predominate except in certain areas (just like equally inaccurate stuff about the Civil War is "known" in certain other areas).

[Humerox]

I imagine it's as much fringe opinion as the war in Iraq being about oil. Or the money that controls it.

Stuff gets blurry after time.

[Shamaeso]

I agree with most of your posts, so was kind of surprised that you threw this out there as a "fact"...



I'm not from the south or anything, but this always struck me as kind of a...fringe opinion by historical revisionists?

In any case, it's hardly predominate except in certain areas (just like equally inaccurate stuff about the Civil War is "known" in certain other areas).

Actually it wasn't about slavery but states rights but it got turned into a slavery issue as a means of justifying it to the northern states. which is surprising as most racism you find is in the northern states then in the south.

[Malrubius]

I imagine it's as much fringe opinion as the war in Iraq being about oil. Or the money that controls it.

Stuff gets blurry after time.

Thank you! I couldn't have said it better myself. In a hundred years' time, the war in Iraq may be said to have been about Religion.

Just as the Civil War is taught in our public schools nowadays as to have been about Slavery. Pfft.

[Humerox]

Thank you! I couldn't have said it better myself. In a hundred years' time, the war in Iraq may be said to have been about Religion.

Just as the Civil War is taught in our public schools nowadays as to have been about Slavery. Pfft.

I think you misunderstood me.

States' rights arguments were tossed about on both sides meaning whatever was convenient for them at any given time.

From wikipedia:

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens said that slavery was the chief cause of secession in his Cornerstone Speech shortly before the war. After Confederate defeat, Stephens became one of the most ardent defenders of the Lost Cause. There was a striking contrast between Stephens' post-war states' rights assertion that slavery did not cause secession and his pre-war Cornerstone Speech.

Similarly, Confederate President Jefferson Davis also reversed his original position, that the central cause of the war was the issue of slavery, arguing after the war that states' rights was its principal cause. While Southerners often used states' rights arguments to defend slavery, sometimes roles were reversed, as when Southerners demanded national laws to defend their interests with the Gag Rule and the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850. On these issues, Northerners wanted to defend their states' rights.

My statement about the war in Iraq was meant to be subtle sarcasm. May have been a mite too subtle.

The Civil War was about slavery, no ifs ands or buts. States' rights was the argument that defended the south's right to keep slavery without federal intervention. It also was argued that the south had the right to secede based upon those very same rights, however, what was the underlying reason for the south's desire to secede?

Slavery, and the protection of it.

So the blanket of "states' rights" can be used to obfuscate the real reason for the war. Leading back to my attempt at subtle sarcasm.

[Humerox]

Oh...and if you want a clearer picture, if you've never read Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech, you might want to. He states very clearly what the reasons for the revolution are.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint=76

[Malrubius]

I think you misunderstood me.

States' rights arguments were tossed about on both sides meaning whatever was convenient for them at any given time.

From wikipedia:

Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens said that slavery was the chief cause of secession in his Cornerstone Speech shortly before the war. After Confederate defeat, Stephens became one of the most ardent defenders of the Lost Cause. There was a striking contrast between Stephens' post-war states' rights assertion that slavery did not cause secession and his pre-war Cornerstone Speech.

Similarly, Confederate President Jefferson Davis also reversed his original position, that the central cause of the war was the issue of slavery, arguing after the war that states' rights was its principal cause. While Southerners often used states' rights arguments to defend slavery, sometimes roles were reversed, as when Southerners demanded national laws to defend their interests with the Gag Rule and the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850. On these issues, Northerners wanted to defend their states' rights.

My statement about the war in Iraq was meant to be subtle sarcasm. May have been a mite too subtle.

The Civil War was about slavery, no ifs ands or buts. States' rights was the argument that defended the south's right to keep slavery without federal intervention. It also was argued that the south had the right to secede based upon those very same rights, however, what was the underlying reason for the south's desire to secede?

Slavery, and the protection of it.

So the blanket of "states' rights" can be used to obfuscate the real reason for the war. Leading back to my attempt at subtle sarcasm.

I know you were being sarcastic, as was I. I do understand that a lot of people WANT the Civil War to have been fought because of Slavery.

Yes, Slavery was related, but the idea that the union fought the secessionist southern states because of Slavery is a modern idea.

Lincoln freed the slaves for morale more than anything else.

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that." - Lincoln

I know you want it to have been because of Slavery. Actually, I think that is a really nice idea - I really do. And I wish it were the case, but it wasn't.

I will definitely grant that Emancipation was one of the great things that came out of the war, even though it was a side-effect.

You can respond of course, but I'm done. The thread should go back to rants and flames about our "collective act" now. :p

[Malrubius]

Oh...and if you want a clearer picture, if you've never read Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech, you might want to. He states very clearly what the reasons for the revolution are.

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?documentprint=76

Thanks, I'll check it out. You might also want to read Foote's "Civil War: A Narrative". It is 3000 some pages, but is very readable and incredibly detailed - in fact I think it may well contain the above speech. Okay - now I'm really done. Cheers!

[Humerox]

I have, in fact, read it. Was required when I took Civil War History. Pretty good account of the campaign.

Be well!

[Humerox]

I know you were being sarcastic, as was I. I do understand that a lot of people WANT the Civil War to have been fought because of Slavery.

Yes, Slavery was related, but the idea that the union fought the secessionist southern states because of Slavery is a modern idea.

Lincoln freed the slaves for morale more than anything else.

I missed this because it flipped pages. The south revolted to protect slavery. The reasons the north gave as justification for fighting were much more muddled.

We're not so far apart. Think about it. :)

[Humerox]

I think one of the reasons I'm so passionate about this is because it really reflects current circumstances in our "fight against terrorism". 100 years from now, kids will probably be taught that our current situation was caused by "mistaken intelligence" et al. But we, in the here and now, know better.


In the Civil War, both the sides knew that it was difficult to convince the public to support them with slavery as the primary reason. The politicians from the Southern states were successful in convincing the public that the Northern states were threatening their culture and way of life. The North's propaganda was that the Southern states would hamper the democratic base of the United States, if allowed to secede.

I know all about the "major reasons" for the Civil War. States' Rights, the election of Lincoln, Harper's Ferry, Uncle Tom's Cabin, for chrissake.

Spin says slavery wasn't the major cause of the war. Spin.

No wonder we get fooled all the time in the states, and it's no wonder the rest of the world calls the American public "sheep". We pretty much are...and instead of getting mad about it...we need to wake up and educate ourselves.

/rant off
/end of derail thread

[Hasbinbad]

The south wanted slavery in the new states (states rights).
The north wanted no slavery in the new states (but not abolition in the union).

Neither government wanted to abolish slavery in existing states.

Lincoln didn't want to abolish slavery in existing states. The Emancipation Proclamation was a military maneuver aimed at undermining the control of southern slave owners, and had nothing to do with any sort of philanthropy on Lincolns part.

It comes down to the south wanting to extend slavery into the west. That's basically what the whole debacle was over. Abolition was an unintended side-effect.

The south got rich by selling cotton to the north who got rich by turning it into thread and making cotton cloth or selling the thread to European countries to make linen.

Both sides were totally unethical.

[Humerox]

Lincoln didn't want to abolish slavery in existing states.

He would have if he could have done so. He expected it to wither and die via no new expansion, and by offering compensated emancipation.

His letter to Joshua Speed in 1855 pretty much summed up his feelings:

How can any one who abhors the oppression of negroes, be in favor of degrading classes of white people? Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes." When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty — to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be take pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy [sic].


All the key issues of the Civil War were tied to slavery. Schlesinger describes the ivalidity of the states' rights argument best imo:

"...states' rights “never had any real vitality independent of underlying conditions of vast social, economic, or political significance.

From the close of the nullification episode of 1832-1833 to the outbreak of the Civil War, the agitation of state rights was intimately connected with the new issue of growing importance, the slavery question, and the principle form assumed by the doctrine was the right of secession. The pro-slavery forces sought refuge in the state rights position as a shield against federal interference with pro-slavery projects.... As a natural consequence, anti-slavery legislatures in the North were led to lay great stress on the national character of the Union and the broad powers of the general government in dealing with slavery. Nevertheless, it is significant to note that when it served anti-slavery purposes better to lapse into state rights dialectic, northern legislatures did not hesitate to be inconsistent."

[isitatomic]

What an exciting topical shift, who KNOWS what we'll be talking about next.


So the blanket of "states' rights" can be used to obfuscate the real reason for the war.

Doesn't get any more straightforward than that

Haven't read any of these texts you're bringing up, but one aspect of the Pro-Slavery arguments being made that I do recall is how plantation owners took a paternalistic stance, decrying how northern industrialists would treat "former" slaves simply as replaceable bottom-feeding wage slaves and nothing more, while on the plantations they were fed and housed and the owners otherwise provided for the personal needs of their slaves. Essentially a "quality of life" argument.

[Hasbinbad]

He would have if he could have done so. He expected it to wither and die via no new expansion, and by offering compensated emancipation.

His letter to Joshua Speed in 1855 pretty much summed up his feelings:
I think his letter to Horace Greely more poignantly sums his feelings on slaves:

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also so that"

[Hasbinbad]

failquote FTW

[Humerox]

All that meant Has, is that he felt the preservation of the Union was more important than anything.

Doesn't mean he didn't abhor slavery and want it abolished.

[Hasbinbad]

All that meant Has, is that he felt the preservation of the Union was more important than anything.

Doesn't mean he didn't abhor slavery and want it abolished.
That's one way of looking at it. To me it speaks of apathy.

[Humerox]

Meh. :p

[jilena]

Oh wow this is still going. That's amazing! And we've switched from p99 being the current battleground for the PC vs sanity side of the civil rights movement to the civil war! Pretty exciting. I hope there is lots more to read tomorrow.

[Finawin]

Lol this post is so full of pathetic crybaby whining it hurts to think people are this weak.

Oh, wait...am I allowed to say crybaby? Gorgetrapper got warned for saying crybaby! *rolls eyes*

You people are worthless.

[karsten]

i just reported you for being an asshole finawin

[Finawin]

I reported you because you want my asshole but can't have it.