Notes from Sundays guild meeting

[tsonka]

Ok guys here they are, notes from the meeting between Divinity, IB, Trans, Remedy and GC. Please keep discussion mature, if someone feels the need for a private chat about anything my vent is always open. Remember the first Sunday of every month at 4pm CST there will be a meeting in Transcendence vent to discuss issues and work on inter-guild relations, any guild is welcome to attend but please limit attendance to 2 people per guild.


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Proper way the 30min timer works, this is to be applied in all situations where the timer is used.

* You must have a force of 15 or more to call a target. This is a firm number. If you had 15 members, 2 died and a second guild zones in while you only have 13 in zone the second guild has the right to call first shot at a mob. “We were in the middle of rezing” or LD members will not be a valid argument for having less then 15.

* The timer on the first guild starts when a second guild calls 30min.

* After timer starts you have the full 30min. Wipe as much as you want, let your numbers drop, etc.

* All calls are to be done in Shout so everyone in zone can see.

* The 30min timer is a timer to ENGAGE the mob. If the timer ends when a guild is actively fighting the raid mob the second guild cannot engage the mob until the first guild wipes or the mob resets (which would be from a wipe most likely).

* It is the responsibility of the second guild entering a zone to call on the first guild, however the first guild does have the right to make their target known in effect starting the timer on themselves. This could be used by a guild that has exactly 15
to announce their intention and protect themselves from having their mob called if their numbers drop below 15.


Draco, Vox and Naggy

* First force of 15 in zone can claim the mob. There is not a special pull spot for these mobs; simply being in the zone is enough to call the mob.

* Normal 30min timer is to be used for these mobs.


Maestro and Inny


* First force of 15 gets claim on the mob as normal but timers are different.

* When the 2 clerics near maestro room or the 2 Ashenbone Drakes from the upstairs area for Inny die a 20min timer to engage is started on the guild claiming a mob.

* Anyone can kill the Clerics or Drakes to start the timer. A second guild can kill the mobs to start the timer on the first but if they do so they must announce it so the first guild will be aware of the timer.

* If both mobs are up one guild cannot call or start the timer for the second mob until their first boss is dead. After the first target is dead the second mob timer can be started as normal.

* If both mobs are up and one guild is there working towards a boss and has killed the Clerics or Drakes which would normally start the timer and a second guild zones in, the first guild has the right to switch targets. If this is done the first guild must announce what their target is to avoid confusion.


CT and the Golems


* 15 ppl minimum is raid force

* In order to lay claim to CT you must kill 2 out of 3 golems. The first raid force in the zone has 30 minutes uncontested to kill 2 golems once they are issued a warning by the second raid force of 15 that enters the zone.

* If the initial raid force kills two golems within their 30 minute timer they will be awarded first shot at CT. Once the plane is free of mobs (with the exception of pets) that guild will have 10 minutes to engage CT. If the second raid force that issued the initial golem timer remains in the zone with a raid force of 15, they will gain second shot at CT in the event the first raid force wipes to CT. If the raid force that issued the golem timer falls short of 15 after the golems die than the next raid force of 15 in the zone may lay claim to second shot at CT.

* It is up to the second in line to issue the 10 minute timer on CT.

* If the initial raid force fails to kill the golems within their 30 minutes the golems will no longer be “claimed” and whichever raid force kills 2 of the 3 golems first will be awarded first shot at CT.

* If 3 different raid forces kill one golem each, the CT claim will be decided by a roll between each raid force that killed a golem. The raid force that was first to be in the zone with 15 will be defaulted second shot at CT provided they killed one golem, otherwise the order will be determined by the roll.


Camping a Boss spawn


If two raid forces of 15 people remain in the zone of a raid npc with the intent of camping the spawn the first raid force with the 15 minimum will have rights to the first attempt provided they meet the roll call from the second raid force upon the actual spawn. A roll call will be made in shout by the raid leader of the second raid present with 15 people. The raid force who was there first is then REQUIRED to have at least 15 members reply in shout with “present” within 60 seconds. If the raid force that was there first fails to have 15 people reply within 60 seconds, the attempt will be awarded to the raid force who was there second. Once the 60 seconds has expired ,the second raid force will also have 60 seconds to shout that they are present in order to confirm claim. In order to maintain “being there first” during a camp, 15 members must remain in the zone. At any point of that number goes below 15, then first shot would change to the raid force who is present with 15. A roll call is only to be used if there is more than one raid force in a zone and then a raid mob spawns.

[Finawin]

*Finawin's stamp of approval*

I was there for this.

[Daydrem]

*Daydrem's stamp of approval*

I was there for this.. Finawin was fashionably late.

[LazyFuj]

This still doesn't help the situation when a guild camps a boss.

Wasn't this meeting brought upon because of guilds camping bosses?

[Jeebus]

This still doesn't help the situation when a guild camps a boss.

Wasn't this meeting brought upon because of guilds camping bosses?

afaik, no

[tsonka]

No, the meeting was brought on by the fiasco that happened in Fear.


In all serriousness what camping situation? Clearly explain the issue and lets discuss it

[LazyFuj]

When a guild camps a boss during the timer variance.

[Jeebus]

When a guild camps a boss during the timer variance.

and the problem is......?

[Glitterati]

When a guild camps a boss during the timer variance.







Camping a Boss spawn


If two raid forces of 15 people remain in the zone of a raid npc with the intent of camping the spawn the first raid force with the 15 minimum will have rights to the first attempt provided they meet the roll call from the second raid force upon the actual spawn. A roll call will be made in shout by the raid leader of the second raid present with 15 people. The raid force who was there first is then REQUIRED to have at least 15 members reply in shout with “present” within 60 seconds. If the raid force that was there first fails to have 15 people reply within 60 seconds, the attempt will be awarded to the raid force who was there second. Once the 60 seconds has expired ,the second raid force will also have 60 seconds to shout that they are present in order to confirm claim. In order to maintain “being there first” during a camp, 15 members must remain in the zone. At any point of that number goes below 15, then first shot would change to the raid force who is present with 15. A roll call is only to be used if there is more than one raid force in a zone and then a raid mob spawns.

Camping a boss mob is pretty clear right here.

[Uaellaen]

*Stamps it again using Daydrems and Finawins stamp since i lost mine*

[LazyFuj]

I didn't say it wasn't clear. But..

It still doesn't help the situation of boss camping.

I can see all sorts of ways to exploit this role call.

Reason I thought this meeting was about boss camping was because where is the fun in racing to get 15 members in the zone when a guild is already camping the boss.

To make this more clear, I thought people were bickering about boss camping, if this isn't the case, then disregard my post.

[Abacab]

You can always go with Abacab's system of pop all bosses weekly at the same time and do a mad dash to claim your weekly mob

We just need an NPC to hang around Freeport with a "?" above it's head

[Virtuosos]

I WAS THERE FOR THIS TOOO.....i watched every1 log into vent and leave my channel without saying hi =/













i hate you all :(


btw -stamp of approval-

[Bones]

I like this. And agree.

However I still think this isn't nearly as effective as the rotation we had on The Rathe, but I am in no position to make any demands.

(For example, Guild A had the first spawn, Guild B has the second spawn, Guild C had the third, etc, repeat.
If a guild failed to drop the target within an hour, then the next guild in the rotation was free to attempt regardless of the numbers the guild attempting had in the zone.) This worked fairly well up until the server merge with Tunare ( Fuck you SOE!), when the whole rotation got fucked over.

The main reason this was implemented was to prevent Guild A from getting a particular raid target every time.

Also, if it was Guild B's rotation, Guild C could not start calling in his guild until Guild B's hour was up. (mainly to prevent training to try and fuck up Guild B's chances)

Just my 2cp.

[Uaellaen]

we had a rotation type going here, people didnt like it, ...

[JayDee]

I'm against rotation and I'm not even in IB.

It's fun to be able to assemble and execute a good game plan, snagging a mob under another guild's nose.

If you do not have the right class makeup or smart enough players, zerg formula always works buddy.

[Bones]

we had a rotation type going here, people didnt like it, ...

I wasn't here for that, So I wouldn't know.
However, I am willing to bet the issues weren't with the rotation itself, but with a different problem going on as a result of the rotation.

Either way, I think it is a great idea what the guilds have agreed on as long as there is some sort of agreement.

My stamp of approval. (If it matters)

[Finawin]

A rotation with 5+ raiding guilds? Fuck that noise lol

[evangelist]

does this mean no guild wars?? :(

[Bones]

A rotation with 5+ raiding guilds? Fuck that noise lol

Good point. I forget there were only 2 guilds capable of raiding back when I was playing. With 5 guilds a rotation is sort of absurd.

However, I still foresee much future griefing and GM intervention. It just seems inevitable with human nature. :/

Hopefully I am just being pessimistic.

[Ektar]

CT and the Golems


* 15 ppl minimum is raid force

* In order to lay claim to CT you must kill 2 out of 3 golems. The first raid force in the zone has 30 minutes uncontested to kill 2 golems once they are issued a warning by the second raid force of 15 that enters the zone.

* If the initial raid force kills two golems within their 30 minute timer they will be awarded first shot at CT. Once the plane is free of mobs (with the exception of pets) that guild will have 10 minutes to engage CT. If the second raid force that issued the initial golem timer remains in the zone with a raid force of 15, they will gain second shot at CT in the event the first raid force wipes to CT. If the raid force that issued the golem timer falls short of 15 after the golems die than the next raid force of 15 in the zone may lay claim to second shot at CT.

* It is up to the second in line to issue the 10 minute timer on CT.

* If the initial raid force fails to kill the golems within their 30 minutes the golems will no longer be “claimed” and whichever raid force kills 2 of the 3 golems first will be awarded first shot at CT.

* If 3 different raid forces kill one golem each, the CT claim will be decided by a roll between each raid force that killed a golem. The raid force that was first to be in the zone with 15 will be defaulted second shot at CT provided they killed one golem, otherwise the order will be determined by the roll.

Can guild #2 kill 1/3 golems, and be ready to pounce on golem 2/3 at the 30 minute mark, or are all 3 golems on reserve for 30 minutes?

[LazyFuj]

I have an idea that would spice up this whole situation.

For 1 week each month(during timer variance), /guildwars.

[Drubu]

Call my crazy but i think GM's should be repoping those zones every day. Guilds falling over themselves for content is not fun.

One of the few things I actually do like about WoW is every guild has an equal shot at the endgame content.

[Bones]

That was what I hated about wow.
Loved the BG's though.

[jilena]

Really the biggest thing that makes Classic EQ better than newer MMOs is competition for content. I'm not really sure why anyone would ever want to remove that from the game.

[atvaata]

those rules are fucking epic

[Kuldiin]

Really the biggest thing that makes Classic EQ better than newer MMOs is competition for content. I'm not really sure why anyone would ever want to remove that from the game.

Because some people have better things to do with their time? :)

Id rather do a boss, than have a chance at doing a boss anyday.

[jilena]

Because some people have better things to do with their time? :)

Id rather do a boss, than have a chance at doing a boss anyday.

Then why play EQ? Nothing else about it is really unique or better than what you can find in plenty of other games.

[Humerox]

Because some people have better things to do with their time? :)

I think this was pretty much the argument that prompted easy travel, instances, no corpse retrieval (to speak of), and a host of other mean, nasty things we all came here to get away from.

:)

[Uaellaen]

Can guild #2 kill 1/3 golems, and be ready to pounce on golem 2/3 at the 30 minute mark, or are all 3 golems on reserve for 30 minutes?

all 3 golems are reserved for 30 minutes

[Helnam]

It's too bad that we'll all be forced into camping raid mobs for countless hours to get some kills in hah. Then again, it is everquest and we all know what that means. The longer you camp, the better you are. Only way to really fix it is just hope GM's will put in a no camping raid boss rule.. but that would be kinda a lame rule. It's people's own choice how to spend their time. (not trying to suggest that so don't flame).. That said A+ rules people.

[Somewhat]

Just a slight additional idea on the roll call, for people to add a shortened guildtag on their name maybe? would make counting easier.

-Somewhat

[Gropey]

Are you sure those are the right role call rules we discussed?

I thought we did away with the whole role call issue as a camping tool because it would basically devolve into a long series of role calls back and forth?

I thought we agreed on a different set of rules for the role call...


-Butch

[Glitterati]

Just a slight additional idea on the roll call, for people to add a shortened guildtag on their name maybe? would make counting easier.

-Somewhat

That doesn't work for a joint guild raid. It'll just have to be a short /shout so-and-so for such-and-such guild/s present.

[Somewhat]

Yeah what I mean was for example:
'Somewhat Shouts, present Eur'
As in short for Europa, cos getting 15+ people to /shout within 1 minute could get confusing for whoevers doing the counting.

Just a thought to over simplify things in a pressure-ish situation ::)

-Somewhat

[Gwence]

Call my crazy but i think GM's should be repoping those zones every day. Guilds falling over themselves for content is not fun.

One of the few things I actually do like about WoW is every guild has an equal shot at the endgame content.

Sorry, but this statement goes well beyond crazy. I'm not sure the english language has a word to describe you.

[dannym3141]

Sorry, but this statement goes well beyond crazy. I'm not sure the english language has a word to describe you.

It has a term to describe him if not a word, that term is "member of the public." No need to be obnoxious about his preference, your opinion is equally insignificant as his.

[Zordana]

stop turning EVERY discussion into a flamefest and dont you even dare to reply to this post.. discuss the rules!

[wacko]

Hello, so i must first say that i dont have much of an idea how long it takes in classic to kill soandso boss, but isnt 30mins a tad low? 30 mins to clear the plane of fear zones to the point that u can pull/kill all 3 golems?

Hell, even rebuffing b4 a named pull would take bout that long.

Just my 2 cents...discuss..

[Trimm]

I'll admit that these rules aren't perfect, but we are trying to work in the best interest of everyone with the limited resources we have. To me, there are 2 big problems right now that we are trying to work around.

A.) There are more raid-ready guilds than there is raid content.
B.) Camping raid mobs is not illegal.

There are too many guilds to include in a rotation with not enough content to go around fairly. Also, if a guild wants to sit in a zone for 4 days straight to have first dibs at a spawn, they may. With the guild meeting and the above rules, we are trying to promote races to content and discourage raid camping.

[Zexa]

Hello, so i must first say that i dont have much of an idea how long it takes in classic to kill soandso boss, but isnt 30mins a tad low? 30 mins to clear the plane of fear zones to the point that u can pull/kill all 3 golems?

Hell, even rebuffing b4 a named pull would take bout that long.

Just my 2 cents...discuss..

It depends on the boss, but you're PoFear example is a good one. It takes hours to get CT, so there's the golem rule. As for Draco, there is a lot of clearing required still, but doable in 30 minutes if you on top of pulls, killing efficiently, and are maybe a little heavy on DPS.

The whole idea behind this is to keep high end raiding competitive, but not a chaotic FFA like it was headed into. With 6ish raid guilds looking for potential targets we needed some firm rules on how to handle this and 30 minutes is usually a very fair amount of time for the first raid force there, imo.

[freezzo]

What about some type of rotation like:

Guild1 - Mob1, Mob2, Mob3, Off
Guild2 - Mob2, Mob3, Off, Mob1
Guild3 - Mob3, Off, Mob1, Mob2
Guild4 - Off, Mob1, Mob2, Mob 3

This way every guild gets a chance to hit every mob on a regular basis, and every guild gets a chance to raid each period. The off is only used if there is more guilds than spawns. This would obviously be open for adjustment based on mob spawn times, missing guilds during their mob spawn, etc. But this could also be a possible solution with some revision. For argument sake, this example assumes mobs rotate on a weekly basis.

Thoughts?

[Nedala]

What about some type of rotation like:

Guild1 - Mob1, Mob2, Mob3, Off
Guild2 - Mob2, Mob3, Off, Mob1
Guild3 - Mob3, Off, Mob1, Mob2
Guild4 - Off, Mob1, Mob2, Mob 3

This way every guild gets a chance to hit every mob on a regular basis, and every guild gets a chance to raid each period. The off is only used if there is more guilds than spawns. This would obviously be open for adjustment based on mob spawn times, missing guilds during their mob spawn, etc. But this could also be a possible solution with some revision. For argument sake, this example assumes mobs rotate on a weekly basis.

Thoughts?

This would remove any competition completely, i would be surprised if anyone wants that. + its not classic at all.

[Jify]

Not to mention it would take literally years to complete epics.

[Deric]

What about some type of rotation like:

Guild1 - Mob1, Mob2, Mob3, Off
Guild2 - Mob2, Mob3, Off, Mob1
Guild3 - Mob3, Off, Mob1, Mob2
Guild4 - Off, Mob1, Mob2, Mob 3

This way every guild gets a chance to hit every mob on a regular basis, and every guild gets a chance to raid each period. The off is only used if there is more guilds than spawns. This would obviously be open for adjustment based on mob spawn times, missing guilds during their mob spawn, etc. But this could also be a possible solution with some revision. For argument sake, this example assumes mobs rotate on a weekly basis.

Thoughts?

Competition argument aside, the next problem involves the numbers of Guilds that would want to be involved as well as attempting to add new guilds to such a rotation.

Right now there are at least 6 guilds that are claiming to be raid ready. That number is only going to increase more and more.

Asking a Guild to have a chance at a raid mob once every 2-3 weeks or asked to skip their turn to let a new guild into rotation is not a viable long term solution.

~~~~

Even with Sky open in the near future or Kunark months from now is not going to resolve such an issue either despite what people think. The only lull will be that 1-2 weeks while people go from lvl 50-60 and are getting ready to raid the new bosses.

[Bones]

This would remove any competition completely, i would be surprised if anyone wants that.

I agree, competition is a nice thing to have.
Unfortunately, competition seems to turn into griefing and guild wars, trains (like we have seen a few times already), etc.

+ its not classic at all.

Not true, As i have already stated, our server used a rotation similar to the one he described, and it worked just fine for quite a long time (classic through PoP era), and up until the server merges.

However, we did only have 3 or 4 major raiding guilds on the top end targets.
I can see we are going to have quite a few more than that on this server.

[freezzo]

I agree competition is good. My server did mostly what was originally proposed here, but wiht 18 in zone members, and no other rules. You get there you get the mob. No timers.

I was just posing an alternative for possible pondering.

I also disagree that this or any other solution is directly associated to a classic server. This is politics. Classic should dictate concrete objects such as mobs, spawns, items, etc.

[Deric]

18 in zone members, and no other rules. You get there you get the mob. No timers.


That's what I thought made the most sense here as well honestly. The simpler the better.

[nalkin]

I think it would be cool if it were complete FFA, the truest form of competition. KSing, training, anything goes. Then the rules are very straightforward...

[Gropey]

a possible solution to the problem of an increasing number of guilds and the same amount of content is to do something outside of classic rules...

Honestly with this being a known quantity and the level of play on the server we've seen 6 guilds already basically double what classic servers had for raid guilds, some had less than 3 in the classic era.

Anyway, we're not going to see much relief till kunark comes out and even then we might see the problem increase even more.

Honestly about the only way to really help alleviate the problem is by opening content...but wait...you just said kunark isn't do out for a long time and that might not even work. Correct, I also think that no one in the raid scene wants to do away with some element of competition. I wonder if the following is even possible to basically have a NagafenA and a NagafenB. Kill mob A and you're precluded from killing mob B and vice versa. It basically doubles the current the content that is in the game and keeps some element of competition. Heck give mob A like 1 more loot or something than B and make B spawn within variance after A dies if you wanted to have some sort of tier system setup.

Once again not even sure if this is possible or the logistics, but it is an interesting thought of increasing the raid content proportionally based upon the raid force when measured to classic standards.

[Prospect]

What about some type of rotation like:

Guild1 - Mob1, Mob2, Mob3, Off
Guild2 - Mob2, Mob3, Off, Mob1
Guild3 - Mob3, Off, Mob1, Mob2
Guild4 - Off, Mob1, Mob2, Mob 3

This way every guild gets a chance to hit every mob on a regular basis, and every guild gets a chance to raid each period. The off is only used if there is more guilds than spawns. This would obviously be open for adjustment based on mob spawn times, missing guilds during their mob spawn, etc. But this could also be a possible solution with some revision. For argument sake, this example assumes mobs rotate on a weekly basis.

Thoughts?

I like it but i'm sure all the elitist/hardcore lvl 50s would be majorly upset with this limit on total "weekly" raid mob(s) allowed (as we've seen before).

[JayDee]

I think it would be cool if it were complete FFA, the truest form of competition. KSing, training, anything goes. Then the rules are very straightforward...

Nobody would ever get a raid mob with those guidelines (or lack thereof).

[tsonka]

I must say I am impressed. 52 posts so far and people are keeping things serrious

[Bones]

I must say I am impressed. 52 posts so far and people are keeping things serrious

that's because we are well rid of the troll scourge as of last night.

[Trimm]

I think it would be cool if it were complete FFA, the truest form of competition. KSing, training, anything goes. Then the rules are very straightforward...

While I don't disagree with this, this is kind of the direction we were headed to in regards to raids on P99. Things were getting very ugly in the planes. 90 people showed up to Plane of Fear at 1am on a Tuesday night and the GMs are having to depop mobs because 4 guilds engaged at the same time.

It wasn't super blatant but trains, leapfogging and ks'ing were happening. The guilds involved were frustrated and we decided to come together to try and talk things out.

[amaterasu]

I think these rules are great, very detailed.

I have a question about Inny/Maestro, can you guys clear it up?
Maestro and Inny


* First force of 15 gets claim on the mob as normal but timers are different.

* When the 2 clerics near maestro room or the 2 Ashenbone Drakes from the upstairs area for Inny die a 20min timer to engage is started on the guild claiming a mob.

So by first force of 15, does this infer the first 15 in the zone, or first 15 to clear either set of two mobs?
I would assume it is not first 15 in zone by the way that's worded, but I'm confused, sorry.

[Samuel]

So by first force of 15, does this infer the first 15 in the zone, or first 15 to clear either set of two mobs?
I would assume it is not first 15 in zone by the way that's worded, but I'm confused, sorry.

It sounds like the first 15 in zone gets to claim either mob. But once the two 'guards' are killed, the guild who already claimed the mob has 20 mins to engage.

[Samuel]

Rules sound pretty good to me.

I think things could get interesting when fighting over golems, but at least there is a concrete rule to who gets CT.

[amaterasu]

It sounds like the first 15 in zone gets to claim either mob. But once the two 'guards' are killed, the guild who already claimed the mob has 20 mins to engage.

Ok that sounds good. So in such a case, does a guild get 30 minutes to clear the 2 mobs, then the timer resets to 20 minutes? So a guild could, in total, get 50 minutes to engage maestro/inny?

[tsonka]

It sounds like the first 15 in zone gets to claim either mob. But once the two 'guards' are killed, the guild who already claimed the mob has 20 mins to engage.

This is correct

[tsonka]

Ok that sounds good. So in such a case, does a guild get 30 minutes to clear the 2 mobs, then the timer resets to 20 minutes? So a guild could, in total, get 50 minutes to engage maestro/inny?

No. There is no timer on getting ot the 2 clerics / Drakes

A guild can take as long as they want clearing to the boss, as long as the clerics / drakes are not killed there is no timer. Keep in mind though, even though there is no timer it does nto mean there is unlimited time, another guild can start the timer to pressure the first.

[amaterasu]

No. There is no timer on getting ot the 2 clerics / Drakes

A guild can take as long as they want clearing to the boss, as long as the clerics / drakes are not killed there is no timer. Keep in mind though, even though there is no timer it does nto mean there is unlimited time, another guild can start the timer to pressure the first.

Ahhh I see, thanks Tsonka

[mirko]

Holy shit can you have more complicated rules?? No wonder there is so much drama and things get messed up so much....

[Zexa]

Holy shit can you have more complicated rules?? No wonder there is so much drama and things get messed up so much....

The rules have been expanded upon because there were vagaries causing the conflict between guilds. Edumacate yourself for eternal happiness.

[Prospect]

Holy shit can you have more complicated rules?? No wonder there is so much drama and things get messed up so much....

Agreed, it's too bad no one wants to share.

[TheDudeAbides]

I don't care for these "rules" at all

Timers are the problem. They should be removed. The first guild in zone who cleared/ moved into position should get their shot. No timer. Let them have their attempt.

It's kind of stupid for a guild to spend time clearing trash, and for a boss to spawn, only to immediately have 2-3 other guilds immediately zone in calling "timers", clearly taking advantage of said guild's clear to get into position themselves.

These rules don't establish any type of civility between guilds at all. It's basically the same system we've been working with, with a few tweaks. It doesn't address 24/7 AFK trackers in the middle of another guild's raid, ect.

The timer crap just makes this way too complicated. It should be simple. 18 in zone, no timer, they get their shot without any other guild in the zone interfering. If they fail, it's an FFA mob. All of this "ok if you clear the corner spawn near point A, you can move into point B and get a refresh on your timer derp de derp" is ridiculous.

In all honesty variance needs to be removed. That's step number one. These current "rules" are all working around the broken concept of a variance spawn system. Variance needs to be addressed before any true "rules" can be addressed. Secondly, if you want to create a rule that addresses boss camping:

a) remove variance

b) have a designated time you are allowed to actually camp a boss. 4 hours maybe. Not sure. Just no freaking 12 hour boss camps or something. If two guilds are trying to get a jump on the spawn at the same time within that period, the raid leaders roll.

First thing first though. Variance needs to go.

[Prospect]

Timers are the problem. They should be removed. The first guild in zone who cleared/ moved into position should get their shot. No timer. Let them have their attempt.

QFT, I believe this 100%


It doesn't address 24/7 AFK trackers in the middle of another guild's raid, ect.

These guys are absolutely horrible!

All of this "ok if you clear the corner spawn near point A, you can move into point B and get a refresh on your timer derp de derp" is ridiculous.

When has this happened?

In all honesty variance needs to be removed.

To have everyone know when the mob spawns on a schedule would remove those lame 24/7 AFK trackers but you'll be faced with 4 guilds all trying to zone into pofear/pohate/solb/perma at the same time causing potential training and further conflict. I believe that variance helps relieve some of this but again we're stuck with camping.

The only time I saw civil action on this server between the elitist guilds was during the rotational period to which everyone was able to give each mob a shot and experience something that they may have not done on EQLive. (casual and hardcore alike!)

[TheDudeAbides]

To have everyone know when the mob spawns on a schedule would remove those lame 24/7 AFK trackers but you'll be faced with 4 guilds all trying to zone into pofear/pohate/solb/perma at the same time causing potential training and further conflict. I believe that variance helps relieve some of this but again we're stuck with camping.

Variance needs to be removed and guilds need to actually work together and come to some compromises concerning the limited content. Will that happen? /shrug

As of now you're seeing 2-3 guilds move into position anyways, except now, due to variance, they are doing it a day or even 2 days in advance and camping mobs in rotations.

It's the slippery slope. Druids camped it first when all this "camping" started. One druid with track is basically the same thing as an entire guild camping a boss. Let's be honest here. Guild B can't necessarily round up 15+ as fast as guild A at 4 AM, so they just move in as a force and camp it for days/camp members out at the spawn ect. None of these rules presented address the real problem. Nobody has to pick and choose mobs and plan their raids accordingly. As of right now, people are just camping spawns with one druid or their entire guild and having the rest on the ready on speed dial. Variance makes this process a complete clusterf&ck.

What if a guild has 15 members camped at maestro safe spot. They know maestro is due sometime the next day, so they clear and camp the night before. Guild B pulls the roamer. Guild A logs in pulls the clerics. Hell guild A can prolly just login and kill the roamer. Guild B, who just spent time clearing to that spot are screwed. Don't say that this isn't going to happen because it is. The slippery slope my friend.

None of these rules address the real problem. Variance which isn't classic anyways. On my old server back in the day if a guild was in a raid zone, no other guild zoned in and started calling timers. It just didn't happen. Guilds respected the raid and let that guild raid in peace. For whatever reason, a few guilds decided they weren't going to respect raids long before there were even 5 capable raid guilds.

At the end of the day the fun factor has been completely buzzkilled. We're all just lackeys on call 24/7 farming like the chinese. You get the text/call at 3AM because of variance, you login half asleep, kill boss on autopilot, go back to sleep.

[pirscuered]

I might have missed it, but does the second guild need 15 in zone in order to call the 30 minutes? I think it'd only be fair, or any tracker can just call 30 minutes the second another guild beats them to something.

[tsonka]

I might have missed it, but does the second guild need 15 in zone in order to call the 30 minutes? I think it'd only be fair, or any tracker can just call 30 minutes the second another guild beats them to something.

Yes, the second guild must have 15+ to call anything.

[Tragedy]

Nothing about lag, nothing at all. I'm not going to say anyone is able to lag others out but I have noticed there is one guild every time (4 raid targets in a row) that anytime I have engaged a mob many of us go LD where we have all be on for hours before pulling with no problems.

The shout system will cause more problems than anything else, you can't just look in the zone and see how many people they have? 60 seconds? Make it something reasonable like 3min or 5min. This is only going to lead to guilds going through chat logs with time stamps saying you were 2 seconds late on the 15th person so now it's mine. Tell me you don't think this is going to be exploited?

With no mention to guild wide LD, zone crash, downtime I have to wonder why they were ignored...the raid guilds know it's a problem.

[Zexa]

Nothing about lag, nothing at all. I'm not going to say anyone is able to lag others out but I have noticed there is one guild every time (4 raid targets in a row) that anytime I have engaged a mob many of us go LD where we have all be on for hours before pulling with no problems.

Oh lord. I can't help but imagining you and your fellow guildmates charging in towards nagafen's lair, then checking /w, and panicking thinking half the raid just went LD after his first dragon roar!!!

But I'm half thinking that is what you're doing...

[TheDudeAbides]

Oh lord. I can't help but imagining you and your fellow guildmates charging in towards nagafen's lair, then checking /w, and panicking thinking half the raid just went LD after his first dragon roar!!!

But I'm half thinking that is what you're doing...

You're thinking wrong

It's a well established fact that there was significant lag in the past BEFORE mobs were engaged.

Go troll rants and flames or something with your stupidity

[Modus]

Yawnzies.

Just triple the spawn rate of raid mobs and halve their drop rate.

More slayage, similar dropage, more funzies for the whole famileze!

Must I do everything?

[FrogKing]

So will the GMs be enforcing those "rules"?

[Humerox]

The GM's haven given full support to the player-driven effort to police themselves...so I imagine they will if they HAVE to.

The whole idea was for us all to be adults and play nicely. The GM's have better things to do. Like work on content and stuffz.

[FrogKing]

The GM's haven given full support to the player-driven effort to police themselves...so I imagine they will if they HAVE to.

The whole idea was for us all to be adults and play nicely. The GM's have better things to do. Like work on content and stuffz.

Heh, if we all acted liked adults and played nicely, that list would never have needed to be written. Well, for what its worth I realllly hope the GMs here do not accept this as server law. Its far too convoluted and the drafting committee not nearly representative enough of the server population. But w/e...I'm not a raider and this is a free, private deal.

[Humerox]

Heh, if we all acted liked adults and played nicely, that list would never have needed to be written. Well, for what its worth I realllly hope the GMs here do not accept this as server law. Its far too convoluted and the drafting committee not nearly representative enough of the server population. But w/e...I'm not a raider and this is a free, private deal.

Ideas can always be put out by the community. There was representation from all the main guilds save one...and they worked hard to ensure fairness for everyone including future raiding guilds. I think the rules are pretty solid...but like I said, if people see weaknesses, by all means, bring them up so the guild leaders can have a look-see.

[Daydrem]

In reference to the LD problem before a boss is engaged.. It is in the rules that once a guild has started their timer it doesnt matter if they go below the 15, they have the run of their timer until it runs out or they wipe to the boss itself. This may not cover everything that can happen because of lag, I can think of a few things that may cause problems. But please understand that the people in the meeting were trying to focus on a fair set of rules and tried to avoid discussing all of the "what ifs", we could have spent days in vent if we had. Since the meetings will be an ongoing we were trying to get the basics of the rules clean of the grey areas the guilds had been arguing over for so long. If we have issues come up later then at least we will have a system in place, the monthly meetings, to hear the problems of varying guilds and try to work out a fair agreement to solve them.

[Tragedy]

I wish intense lag most of the time we pull a raid mob was a "what if", it's something I expect. Lets pull this early because we're going to all mysteriously go LD after we engage is what goes on in my head.

I've never been confused in any of the raids I've been on who had rights to a mob and I've been in fear when half the server was there. What happens when one guild gets trained and no GM is around, still going to use the 30min or better yet train a guild then expect 15 people to shout here. These are not "what if" things, this is going to happen and we all know it.

[Humerox]

No one knows if, or when a GM will be there.

No one knew Rogean was in Fear till he despawned Draco during that last multi-guild encounter.

[Xzerion]

bump for Modus

[Loke]

bump for Modus

Just curious, I see nothing in this post that says that once the 30 minute timer is up, the first guild has to back off and give the second guild 30 minutes. All it says is that once the 30 minute timer is up, the second guild can engage. I, and Modus, were under the impression that after the 30 minute timer expired, the mob became FFA; eventually going to the first guild able to engage.

Not trying to get in an argument, but what happens after the 30 minute timer expires is some what vague in the OP.

[Uaellaen]

I, and Modus, were under the impression that after the 30 minute timer expired, the mob became FFA

then you know now, that you are wrong ... there is no FFA, period. First timer runs out, second guild gets the shot, and first guild stays out of the way ... if the first guild wants to get back in line, they can now issue the timer onto the second guild ...

[Loke]

then you know now, that you are wrong ... there is no FFA, period. First timer runs out, second guild gets the shot, and first guild stays out of the way ... if the first guild wants to get back in line, they can now issue the timer onto the second guild ...

That is what happened, so I guess all the rules were followed. Just saying that someone might want to update this post to clarify that issue as it isn't really covered in the OP. No mention of backing off and giving guild #2 a 30 minute timer is mentioned.. it is only stated that guild #1 loses their uncontested claim.

[Olorin]

While I don't disagree with this, this is kind of the direction we were headed to in regards to raids on P99. Things were getting very ugly in the planes. 90 people showed up to Plane of Fear at 1am on a Tuesday night and the GMs are having to depop mobs because 4 guilds engaged at the same time.

It wasn't super blatant but trains, leapfogging and ks'ing were happening. The guilds involved were frustrated and we decided to come together to try and talk things out.

Even after the implementation of these rules, its still happening. Take for examle Naggy today (5/13) -- A certain guild was there in force and called mob first, but IB is taking it anyway on the grounds that there was no proof.

Must be nice to have favored status and not have rules apply to you.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Even after the implementation of these rules, its still happening. Take for examle Naggy today (5/13) -- A certain guild was there in force and called mob first, but IB is taking it anyway on the grounds that there was no proof.

Must be nice to have favored status and not have rules apply to you.

Your whining is premature. Xzerion is discussing the situation with Pikler DESPITE the fact that we have a time-stamped screenshot of 15 IB in zone.

[Olorin]

Your whining is premature. Xzerion is discussing the situation with Pikler DESPITE the fact that we have a time-stamped screenshot of 15 IB in zone.

Not premature, I was in the zone and your screenshot doesn't prove that you were first in force, because you weren't. It merely shows that you had 15 before DA.

In fact, when GC first called naggy your members were still calling efreeti and nothing else.

[crzycurious]

What is the point in having these timers? If there is a guild in position to have a mob, we should be adult enough to back off and let them have their shot uncontested for as long as they need. If they wipe, by all means, jump in and take it.

I don't see the point in having to have all those people in a zone jsut to cause more mayhem and /shout fighting and arguing. Why not have trackers zone in, see if the guild has 15+ people and if they do have the second raid force gather outside said raidzone and wait. The second raid force should have 1 person in said zone so that they can see if there is a wipe, but with the lag issues and the bothering the first guild there should not be 2 guilds in a zone to do this.

If we all be adults here and let everyone have their fair shot, then all will be respected. I agree with the 15+ for a raid force, but the time limit is a little short. Why rush and screw up a raid mob just so that another guild can have it?

[LazyFuj]

What is the point in having these timers? If there is a guild in position to have a mob, we should be adult enough to back off and let them have their shot uncontested for as long as they need. If they wipe, by all means, jump in and take it.

I don't see the point in having to have all those people in a zone jsut to cause more mayhem and /shout fighting and arguing. Why not have trackers zone in, see if the guild has 15+ people and if they do have the second raid force gather outside said raidzone and wait. The second raid force should have 1 person in said zone so that they can see if there is a wipe, but with the lag issues and the bothering the first guild there should not be 2 guilds in a zone to do this.

If we all be adults here and let everyone have their fair shot, then all will be respected. I agree with the 15+ for a raid force, but the time limit is a little short. Why rush and screw up a raid mob just so that another guild can have it?


what game are you playing?

[TheDudeAbides]

Not premature, I was in the zone and your screenshot doesn't prove that you were first in force, because you weren't. It merely shows that you had 15 before DA.

In fact, when GC first called naggy your members were still calling efreeti and nothing else.

Apparently they wiped at efreeti as well and dropped to 13 in zone after said guild was there in force at FG staging area. (GC not DA)

But the burden of proof was on the irrelevant guild or something according to the power gamers who sh*t all over them and strong armed the spawn.

But I'm only going by what the little birds whispered to me. It's all a big joke regardless to be honest.

[Modus]

The rules clearly stipulate that a raid force must be gathered to claim a raid boss.

If you have 5 newbs wiping at efreeti, 4 dudes exping in royals, 4 people nowhere in sight, and the last 2 sitting on FG ledge... how is that a raid force?

[Bruman]

[great post about using logic and being adults snipped]



Yeah, unfortunately there are too many people deteriorating into selfish children to allow that to happen. It's probably a minority that started it, but that minority was then leading the brigade for this negative behavior, then those negatively impacted by it, who are perhaps more mature than others, unfortunately got dragged down to the same level, so now we have this over-complicated lawyer-ish approach where people try to poke holes and say BRING PROOF instead of just a simple rule like "don't be a douche" being enough.

Christ, it's a fucking 10 year old game, on a private server, for imaginary items. I mean, we all enjoy it and love the game, and most of us probably play way more than we should, but the raiding scene is trashed on this server it seems, which is sad.

Granted, it's not just the raiding game, I can't pull in Unrest without people bitching one way or the other. People don't know how to share and play nice with others. Aren't you supposed to learn that shit at like age 4 or something?

Of course, I'm just a level 20 now on this server, so without 50 days played my opinion is worthless.

[crzycurious]

what game are you playing?

I am trying to play the game that I originally loved back before people's e-peens took over the game.

[anthony210]

So whats the latest and greatest with these guild meetings. Any progress? Any more notes?

[TheDudeAbides]

I am trying to play the game that I originally loved back before people's e-peens took over the game.

^^^^^^^^^

The raiding scene here has been a joke since day one

[Slackbadger]

get a rotation sorted it will put a end to all this bullshit.

[karsten]

agreed

[eqdruid76]

This is why instances were created. You guys realize that, right?

As such, there will never be instances on P99, so we're all just going to have to learn to deal with a shitstorm of unfairness and exploitation. Just like live pre-LDoN.

I just wonder if the long-standing policy of "We will not help you if you have any problems inside Veeshan's Peak" will hold true on this server? If so, that'll humble a lot of uberdouches, and I will be well-amused. :P