Clarification of Camp rules

[Splorf22]

So I have gotten into this situation several times over the past weeks. I arrive at camp x: (necro-guardian in sebilis, verix in KC). Mobs are up. I begin to slaughter looking for my resist gems/keypiece.

Group arrives. They wiped/evaced/were otherwise not there, but were there at some point in the recent past. Confrontation ensues and I'm given various lines like "NG is not a solo camp, I've talked to GMs" or "We have 15 minutes to reclaim our camp after an evac for a pathing bug" or "We're not giving our camp up to you because we were trained" (this from the KC basement group. How the heck do you train yourself in the KC basement?).

At this point I grumble a bit and leave, although I could probably out-dps some of these groups with a hasted DW pet and worst case get 50% of the kills with memblur, because I can't be bothered to get into huge confrontations over pixels. But it's starting to happen a lot and it's beginning to irritate me a little. Soon I'm hoping to have enough resist gems/keypieces to move on from these popular camps but in the meantime, I'd like to know exactly what the rules are: are there any extenuating circumstances which would give a group that wasn't there the right to the camp? I know server reset counts but I'm not aware of others.

[Seaweedpimp]

Sounds to me like you were talked into something you didnt have to do. ;)

[Glitterati]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2653

[Sizzle]

As far as I know if you wipe, camp is open this has happened to me and my groups in the past and we have had to give them up. So I say if you get there and its not attended to then its yours if they want to make a huge fuss about it have them get a GM and continue to do your thing until one arrives. If one then arrives and asks you to leave then go. I'd just tell people "How do I know you guys were here? For all I know you guys could have just showed up and are trying to take MY CAMP."

[Flunklesnarkin]

Idk... i think the camp rules that i read were something like this

if group wipes claim to camp is open..

if person is just there to farm and not for exp.. but people want to exp suppose to work something out?

but yah if you were there exping solo.. it wouldn't be right for them to take it.. but if you just farming and they trying to exp... might be better to farm a different area.

thats my take on it either way.

[Splorf22]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2653

Yeah I read that. My question is are there extenuating circumstances. Because I'm always getting various excuses like "we were trained" or "we had a pathing bug" etc. Are these legit?

Keep in mind that if these guys just asked nicely I would probably move on most of the time. In the latest case they just started attacking stuff while I was talking.

[Amelinda]

if a group wipes for whatever reason UNLESS it is gm sanctioned as to the reason - server reset, zone issues etc then someone else shows up and takes camp it's the new persons. case closed.

There is absolutely not a rule that states groups get preference on camps over solo players.

"We were trained" would only work if it were malicious training and the GM has evidence of it and you just choose to be nice. but you don't have to leave the spot. they left so it's yours.

"pathing bugs" that is something that i'm going to say a guide would need to witness or be involved with at that point for it to be valid.

super easy to lose your camp due to your own failure to play EQ then cry "pathing bug"

[Orruar]

If you have to resort to referring to the server rules on camps, you've already lost. The server rules related to camps are mostly retarded and can be twisted to justify just about anything. Instead be reasonable and treat the other person like they're reasonable, and usually you can work something out.

[Flunklesnarkin]

If you have to resort to referring to the server rules on camps, you've already lost. The server rules related to camps are mostly retarded and can be twisted to justify just about anything. Instead be reasonable and treat the other person like they're reasonable, and usually you can work something out.

That would make the most since imo... can't really expect gm's to sort out exp camps all the time.

were you after exp or loot.. cuz if just loot im sure there are other places to farm also.

It would be kinda shitty if they ran you out the exp camp tho.

[Splorf22]

OK, thanks a lot Amelinda. Glad I have something nice to quote.

Orruar/Flunkle I'm all about getting along with people - I've just left every other time this has happened (I like to whine a little of course :)). In this case I got in, killed the krup roamer, and while I was killing the necrosis the group showed up. They let me finish killing the necrosis, asked for some c2 for their cleric which I gave because I thought they were going to have to rez (despite having an enchanter in their group), congratulated me on a slashing necrosis scarab, and immediately pulled the two remaining sepsis scarab without saying another word. That kind of shit just irritates me which is why I have a ragethread on the forums.

[Vondra]

Regardless of who ended up with the camp, that group had to deal with the shame that they wiped at NG.

[Darwoth]

pvp server helps to eliminate the fischer price generation of gamers, either play there or embrace the crying over who is camping what.

[PureLo]

What the other dudes said... if you are solo and camping for items as you stated in your post then go somewhere else less populated where groups don't tend to arrive. It sounds like they were reasonable at the fact they allow'd you to take their named if they had to evac from a zone pathing bug.

For a GM to come in here and say a pathing bug could be player skill based is laughable at best when it is an obvious coding issue. Maybe Amelinda isn't exactly an unbiased mind who should be handling these situations if it just leads to the elevation of rants/flames especially if she doesn't know the exact circumstance but puts that spin on it already in a post that was originated to simply ask questions.

[Uthgaard]

What she said was that we're not going to give you obnoxious players the benefit of the doubt when no one officially witnessed the alleged "pathing bug" happen. Dying to a pathing bug at seb scarabs would definitely be the first time it's been heard of. Rough translation for the simple: It's a bullshit story to retake a camp lost to a pull failure. There is no grace period to retake a camp, except on server reboots. Guess what, the server didn't reboot. If you can't keep up with the conversation, you shouldn't join in at all.

[Amelinda]

What she said was that we're not going to give you obnoxious players the benefit of the doubt when no one officially witnessed the alleged "pathing bug" happen. Dying to a pathing bug at seb scarabs would definitely be the first time it's been heard of. Rough translation for the simple: It's a bullshit story to retake a camp lost to a pull failure. There is no grace period to retake a camp, except on server reboots. Guess what, the server didn't reboot. If you can't keep up with the conversation, you shouldn't join in at all.


For a GM to come in here and say a pathing bug could be player skill based is laughable at best when it is an obvious coding issue. Maybe Amelinda isn't exactly an unbiased mind who should be handling these situations if it just leads to the elevation of rants/flames especially if she doesn't know the exact circumstance but puts that spin on it already in a post that was originated to simply ask questions.

Purelo - i don't know what i did to you originally months and months ago but you've hated me since i noticed your name on these boards.

i don't even know who you are in game or why you seem to have such an interest in why i'm a guide or not. But pretty much I have been a guide since april 15. I'm not perfect. sometimes i'm cranky. but Rogean has said that i'm one of the fairest guides he's ever had. OBVIOUSLY there is something he and nilbog like so your little campaigns to have me removed aren't going to work. I just wish I knew what i did to you.

[Doublestep]

AMELINDA

[PureLo]

LOL, campaign's to have you removed is a little dramatic. Also.. Uthgaard changes made in the game effect different things all the time you of all people should know this. How do you know it was a pull failure instead of a bug if you too weren't there to witness it? You all can be just as obnoxious ruling something one way and then doing it the complete opposite the next time around so no need for name calling.

How else would you explain such events as mushrooms/juggs coming into disco or chef/bar and iksar jail mobs coming to NG through walls/floors when those two areas have nothing to do with eachother (both of which i've seen)... failed pulls LOL ok.

[Amelinda]

How else would you explain such events as mushrooms/juggs coming into disco or chef/bar and iksar jail mobs coming to NG through walls/floors when those two areas have nothing to do with eachother (both of which i've seen)... failed pulls LOL ok.

I'd say probably someone was in sebilis using the sk dot / coth pull method to pull the fungus king ph then and if i catch them doing it they are going to be in trouble.

[Autotune]

stop being nice and you'd get suckered out of camps less.

[Seaweedpimp]

I'd say probably someone was in sebilis using the sk dot / coth pull method to pull the fungus king ph then and if i catch them doing it they are going to be in trouble.

Whats wrong with that?~!

[Kassel]

I'd say probably someone was in sebilis using the sk dot / coth pull method to pull the fungus king ph then and if i catch them doing it they are going to be in trouble.

Its a legit pulling strat..... you cast on a mob, he runs to your camp..

[Doublestep]

I'd say probably someone was in sebilis using the sk dot / coth pull method to pull the fungus king ph then and if i catch them doing it they are going to be in trouble.

...

[Xodi]

I'd say probably someone was in sebilis using the sk dot / coth pull method to pull the fungus king ph then and if i catch them doing it they are going to be in trouble.

Pulling like this is against the rules? I honestly thought that was a utility portion of the Shadow Knight. Did it like this for years on live, and have done it like this on p1999 ever since level 20.

Have I been unwittingly breaking an unwritten rule?

[Amelinda]

the issue with pulling like that in sebilis during high population times is that it trains the t-total crap outta the entire zone.

frogs and mushrooms rain out of the ceilings and walls. And i'm not willing to sit in sebilis 24/7 and rez groups that people wipe because they want to pull the fungal king to crypt. or because they want to pull bartender to traks lair

and if you genuinally believe this doesn't happen you are a fool. unless it's been ninja fixed with pathing in the past several months it still happens.

So you dot the npc and get cothed while standing.
(Dot ticks)
Fungal PH agros and transfers SOCIAL agro to all the other mushrooms near him and begins running towards you. they pick up mobs then you see the first mob and feign to split the fungal king off from his pack.

in the mean time ALL of those mobs have wiped anyone at juggs and depending on the path through the wall they may have wiped groups elsewhere.

HOW are you going to sit there and tell me that it's totally fine to train other groups just to pull how you want to?

[Amelinda]

And for the record. Just because you are pulling a PH this way - that doesn't give you sole and absolute right to that camp unless you are sitting in it. Camps, defined says to maintain presence in the game.

kthx.

[YendorLootmonkey]

So you dot the npc and get cothed while standing.
(Dot ticks)
Fungal PH agros and transfers SOCIAL agro to all the other mushrooms near him and begins running towards you. they pick up mobs then you see the first mob and feign to split the fungal king off from his pack.


My understanding is they click their Circlet of Shadow for insta-invis right after the dot tick to avoid the social aggro of non-see-invis mobs. Assuming they got to the mob in the first place for the initial pull, there wouldn't have been any see invisible mobs on the way back to camp.

[Amelinda]

My understanding is they click their Circlet of Shadow for insta-invis right after the dot tick to avoid the social aggro of non-see-invis mobs. Assuming they got to the mob in the first place for the initial pull, there wouldn't have been any see invisible mobs on the way back to camp.

I've sat and watched SK's pull this way. it is not the fabled single pull that most people believe it is. even if they go invis it still doesn't come single.

it DOES train groups. period.

[Kassel]

So are you going to ban ppl for using a legit pull method (no trains) or are you going to ban people for training, 2 different things. Your prior post indicated you will paint all coth pullers as trainers regardless of trains.

[Uthgaard]

COTH should be dropping aggro. So if you're using it to pull you're exploiting anyway, making it a moot point.

[Autotune]

i've single pulled with dot/cos, but i'm pro.


Also coth pulling is for pros, leave it to them imo.

[YendorLootmonkey]

COTH should be dropping aggro. So if you're using it to pull you're exploiting anyway, making it a moot point.

It does drop aggro and retrieves the player out of the mobs and plants him or her at the mage's feet. Working as intended.

Circlet of Shadow instantly invises the user and will prevent non-see-invis mobs from aggroing. Working as intended.

The DoT spell re-aggros the mob on the next tick when the damage is applied again. Same mechanic that breaks mez every server tick. Getting COTH'd does not clear all prior debuffs/dots that you may have casted on mobs. This is working as intended.

The dotted mob will not cause social aggro to non-see-invis mobs as it runs past. I don't remember how this worked in Live classic, but if anything, this part would be the part that is not working as intended and allowing the pull described above to happen.

[Seaweedpimp]

^^^ I hate to agree but this is correct.

[Seaweedpimp]

CoH IS dropping aggro like its supposed to. The dot is regaining aggro. At one point it did clear aggro, you see where this is going.

[Uthgaard]

Then that just seems like a clever use of mechanics. I don't know the specifics of how mobs re-aggroed while invis either, and that's a level of detail that wouldn't be easy to find.

[Flunklesnarkin]

idk how it works... but if nobody gets trained sounds legit... if some does get trained i'd look out for the wrath of amelinda lol.

edit.. assuming nobody is actually camping the monster.. if you show up to a camp just to pull the named would be lame.

[Autotune]

idk how it works... but if nobody gets trained sounds legit... if some does get trained i'd look out for the wrath of amelinda lol.

edit.. assuming nobody is actually camping the monster.. if you show up to a camp just to pull the named would be lame.

the only way someone else is getting trained when another person is pulling with cos, is the person training themselves.

Mobs don't just choose to aggro random people in the zone because another mob runs by that is on someone invisible.


Same goes with the super secret coth pull.

[Brimacombe]

I could take advantage of another player's bad luck or low level of playing ability to get mines, but in reality I wouldn't feel right. There are plenty of camps available at all levels of play and skill.
A lost art is pulling. Pullers would always return on the INC backwards to see if the pull is going well, and to memorize the pathing. Pathing errors are part and parcel of Everquest. It is an old MMO, and in my opinion, crazy pathing is part of the charm of the game, as well as the challenge that keeps me playing this and not a game that makes me say to myself "Wow this is easy, Wow this is boring". Anyone who volunteered to pull (Something I refuse to do) knew the pathing of the area, it was just expected skill. As a matter of fact, many of them knew where the fear wells were also, but most likely they are alts of a wealthy necro.
I know that by the rules I could vulture on a camp that has people wanting it but has had bad luck or bad skill. Their loss is not my opportunity to me. If I am at a camp and a group runs up crying bloody murder, well, although I love humanity, I am aware of the zeitgeist that selfishness is a virtue nowadays. In short. I am here and I don't know them from mo to trust them. If they are there and they wipe. Well, that is their bad luck, but I am not about to vulture them. I wouldn't feel right about it.
If the rules said I could beat someone with a hammer and take their money. I wouldn't. There is far, far more to life than "What I can get away with". There is being a decent human being.

- Brimacombe

[Spudsy]

What she said was that we're not going to give you obnoxious players the benefit of the doubt when no one officially witnessed the alleged "pathing bug" happen. Dying to a pathing bug at seb scarabs would definitely be the first time it's been heard of. Rough translation for the simple: It's a bullshit story to retake a camp lost to a pull failure. There is no grace period to retake a camp, except on server reboots. Guess what, the server didn't reboot. If you can't keep up with the conversation, you shouldn't join in at all.

I'm not saying this is what happened and not even claiming that it would make the peoples claim to the camp legit, but there is a pretty nasty pathing "bug" at that camp. I don't know the exact cause but I think if you get too far ahead of the frog just to the right of guardian (for instance he starts cast, you agro and you take off back for B2) he'll path through crypt and through some portion of chef for a truly epic train. Once you know about it, though, it's simple to realize it's happening and abort. It's less of a bug and one of those things that makes EQ the unforgiving masterpiece that it is.