Original style trade skill combines now enforced?

[jamsen]

There doesn't seem to be a message in the patch notes, but I was kind of curious as to why this was removed - I know it's not classic but there are a lot of items that aren't classic in this game; such as global ooc and auction channels, and the item lins; that people use all the time.

As someone who enjoys trade skills and who suffers RSI, I'm kind of annoyed that this was fixed, and didn't even rank a courtesy of a mention in the patch notes.

[stormlord]

There doesn't seem to be a message in the patch notes, but I was kind of curious as to why this was removed - I know it's not classic but there are a lot of items that aren't classic in this game; such as global ooc and auction channels, and the item lins; that people use all the time.

As someone who enjoys trade skills and who suffers RSI, I'm kind of annoyed that this was fixed, and didn't even rank a courtesy of a mention in the patch notes.

I'm guessing you mean it making 1 item rather than 5 or 10?

You mean all the clicking? I know whatcha mean. Ever played Diablo I/II? There's a lot more clicking in that. Every mob you kill you have to click and you often will be killing dozens of mobs at once...

I try to use my keyboard in combination with my mouse to reduce the clicking. I know what you mean though. It seems like they could increase the tradeskill output by compensating in other places. For example, they could increase the delay between making items and have the delay correspond to the output amount. An alternative is to have the output amount correlate with price or difficulty to acquire instead of a timer. Or they could have mini-games or expansive combinations to make the items in order to ensure that players are kept busy and can make many items at once. Why would you do that? Well, it's boring to sit for 15 or 30 or 60 seconds waiting for the timer to refresh. I'd rather be doing something. A mini-game that can add a bonus to the output like +1 items or +1 quality or +1 durability, but they'd need to keep it interesting by updating it with new things (kind of like a card game where they make new cards to keep you thinking about new strategy).

Thing is, they're trying to emulate classic eq as best they can and that usually means adopting ideas that were not the greatest. We all can agree, and I can 100%, that eq back then was not a perfect game and had many shortcomings. And I'm not referring to matters of opinion even though I could make a good argument that more intelligent non-players with more personality would be an improvement. For example, my preference for immersion features like 1st person and suspension of disbelief (non-players that behave dynamically) are opinions. Things like how much you click to use the interface are not opinions because it's technical in nature. It's not healthy to make an interface that requires too much clicking. That can irreversibly harm fingers and hands and wrists over several decades of use. It's also not accessible by those with disabilities.

Ironically, there's more clicking on live eq servers than on this server in combat (more hotkeys on live).

There's also the problem of combinations being eaten up by default without exception. In other words, anything you combined in a tradeskill container in classic eq was eaten. I think a better system would have only eaten the items if they were tradeskill appropriate for that particular container. For example, a blacksmithing item used in a fletching container would not be eaten. Only tradeskill items used in fletching would be eaten. (I know that some people might not like a system that's so manual, but I actually prefer it that way because I like to keep track of what i've done on my own. For example, if i've tried combination X, I want the freedom to accidently try it again, fail, and then remember that I had already tried it. Many modern systems will record each and every action, and prevent accidental failure. I think that's overdoing it, but I know a lot of people like it that way. Even quests and tasks are recorded automatically and even when you talk with a non-player everything is bracketed and automatic - there's very little detective work. I like talking to non-players in MUDs - no brackets, lots of subjects to talk about. A good non-player will respond to potentially hundreds of topics you bring up. For example, the other day I spoke to non-players in qeynos and i don't remember a single one responding to "what do you think about qeynos," and I think that's sad because i've seen much better than this. Many mmorpgs take it once step further by giving non-players a symbol when they have a quest for you, and everything is automatic from that point forward. Very linear. And even live eq tells you what kind of non-player it's in brackets ([general merchant], [tradeskill tasks], [ranger guildmaster], etc). I'm so disgusted by it I've considered making my own non-player speech library using c++. But I doubt I'll ever get around to it. What's sad about many of these mmorpgs is that they're missing a good speech system. That part where you're a detective and can learn in a non-linear kind of way. Things are too directed from up above. I think it's the difference between reading a linear story and reading a choose your own adventure.)

[Azureblaze]

OP -

Guess ya missed this part in the patch notes :

# Secrets: Removed Autocombine and Favorites system from the server. You must use the experiment window.

[stormlord]

There doesn't seem to be a message in the patch notes, but I was kind of curious as to why this was removed - I know it's not classic but there are a lot of items that aren't classic in this game; such as global ooc and auction channels, and the item lins; that people use all the time.

As someone who enjoys trade skills and who suffers RSI, I'm kind of annoyed that this was fixed, and didn't even rank a courtesy of a mention in the patch notes.

Items links are a good point, btw. I missed that in my first reply. In the backwards days, you had to say things like "Epic Sword 9/17 10str 6.5wt 15k".

I'm surprised live eq doesn't allow you to link a bag and have everything in the bag auto-linked kind of like a webpage. You need to keep in mind that one of hte reasons they added item linking was that items were getting very complex. Many stats were listed with an item and that made it impractical to list the stats manually. For example, instead of saying "Epic Sword 9/17 10str 6.5wt 15k" you would say "Epic Sword 9/17 4ac 10str 5dex 3sta 5mr 10dr 50dd stun 6.5wt 15k." That's not a great example, but the more stats there're, the more impractical it becomes. It might actually save more time in this kind of circumstance for people to meet in person and exchange the items so they can see them directly. Doing it manually also eats up lines in the chat window. And I'm not sure how much bandwidth that's, but I bet it would add up.

Sidenote: I actually am keeping a list of items in social hotkeys because I don't want to carry the items around with me when I adventure. This allows me to /shout my wares without encumbering me. I imagine that this method of doing it would become impractical in modern eq because items can have dozens of stats.

[BuzWeaver]

I'm a little torn on this issue as well. Granted I respect the fact that Project1999 is not a fee based game, so I remind myself of that as well as the dedication and hard work the developers put into the game for our enjoyment. I'm a consummate trade skiller myself and friends of mine who share the same love of the old style game are too. I'm trying to win them over to playing, however this seems to be a sticking point for at least one of them.

I'm guessing some luxuries are left in the game for the sake of continuity in the community. Linking items would save people the trouble of having to answer some of the basic questions about the item, for example can my <insert class> use this. The global chat can seem a bit like a news crawl/scroll at the bottom of the screen, however with a limited amount of players it would be easier to leave it global than having people meet in one zone for selling/trading/interacting, which I'm sure people wouldn't necessarily object to, however the lag might be an issue.

The friend I mentioned earlier came over Friday night and experienced his fill of walking down memory lane, by crafting with one of my characters. As much as he enjoyed it he couldn't help but comment on the excessive amount of clicking. This was a lot more pronounced when making tiny bits and I'll be making a lot of these for both Tailoring and Blacksmithing (not to mention the clicking to compile the materials in the respected stations/kits). I am glad that miss-combines and or incorrect materiel combination's don't get removed/eaten when incorrectly used.

I would imagine that these changes were not intended to discourage people from doing trade skills, but to perhaps leave a certain since of accomplishment for those who dedicate themselves to the craft. It would certainly not detract from my immersion if at some point the newer system is implemented, however I know this could discourage some people from participating in trade skills and having a thriving community of Trade Skillers really adds to the community of the game.

[jamsen]

Thanks for pointing out the patch message. I did do a search for various trade skill related terms, including combine, but that didn't point out.

Well, I won't be trade skilling any more as the repeated move-mouse-click process kills my wrist. Good luck for all you other trade skill junkies as I'm retiring my blacksmith hammer.

[Omnimorph]

I sort of liked the tradeskilling as it was (prior to patch). Admittedly it wasn't classic, but it's one of those things i thought was an improvement over how it was in classic, so to me it was fine to leave it.

But then it's not my server, so i'm not going to complain too much about it. Was it easier? sure... but then we all know just from looking at live that easier doesn't necessarily mean better :p

[Kantan]

You could autocombine from your inventory?

[Slayde]

So what I am coming to understand from this thread is people are unhappy because they have to click the mouse more? Really? That is pretty lame, unless you have some sort of disability hindering you from performing repeated mouse clicks. I mean how much effort is it really? you're barely moving at all. Also who said tradeskilling was supposed to be easy. Ever tried blacksmithing in real life? now that is hard! hehe.

But do as you wish, if you want to throw away your tradeskilling careers because of a few extra mouse clicks go right ahead. Leaves more potential customers for the real crafters.

[Zordana]

the good thing was, you could use your fletching/sewing/whatever kit as a bagback and didnt need to clear it up to do some crafting with the newer crafting GUI.. i miss it... now when i want to make arrows, i gotta clean up the friggn damn fletchin kit every damn time to make arrows which is really annoying..
i really dont like this "hey we want EVERYTHING classic" but well, i still love it here

[BuzWeaver]

So what I am coming to understand from this thread is people are unhappy because they have to click the mouse more? Really? That is pretty lame, unless you have some sort of disability hindering you from performing repeated mouse clicks. I mean how much effort is it really? you're barely moving at all. Also who said tradeskilling was supposed to be easy. Ever tried blacksmithing in real life? now that is hard! hehe.

But do as you wish, if you want to throw away your tradeskilling careers because of a few extra mouse clicks go right ahead. Leaves more potential customers for the real crafters.

Perceptually I understand your observation, realistically I disagree with your over all view. This isn't a decry from people protected by the ADA or the request for OSHA to step in. I don't get the impression that anyone suggested that trade skills were easy, fundamentally or intrinsically. The reality is, there is a lot of clicking going on and depending on what trade skill you're doing or even if you're doing multiple trade skills the clicking adds up.

Yes, its incredibly convenient to have the recipe menu at the crafting station(s) or in your kit(s). I don't get the impression anyone is really all that critical about the changes, other than to say ergonomically going back to the old school method is tedious than a break in immersion. We aren't talking about the down time for boats, we are talking about a physical action that over time is going to have an effect.

Personally instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water, this just means I'll have to pace my skills. Trade skills encourage interactivity and participation. It also generates cash flow for both the Skiller and those hunting for a few extra coin. Its viability is an integral part of the game, if people are discouraged to do trade skills it can effect the game.

[Slayde]

I'm not being critical either. I was just trying to say that the thought of clicking a mouse, no matter how many times, being physically taxing to the point of hindering or discouraging people from doing tradeskills, is just being lazy. Nobodies finger is going to fall off because they have to click a few more times on the mouse. Thats all im trying to say.

[Cscott]

everyone that already used this " feature " to skill up is immune.. cool server but some of this stuff is just stupid.

[nilbog]

Its awesome when we make things more classic, people complain. You guys should complain if we for example... put Vah Shir in the game.

If you'll notice, the changes we implement are to fit the mission goal of the project. Classic Everquest. Stupid indeed.

[BuzWeaver]

I'm not being critical either. I was just trying to say that the thought of clicking a mouse, no matter how many times, being physically taxing to the point of hindering or discouraging people from doing tradeskills, is just being lazy. Nobodies finger is going to fall off because they have to click a few more times on the mouse. Thats all im trying to say.

Its awesome when we make things more classic, people complain. You guys should complain if we for example... put Vah Shir in the game.

If you'll notice, the changes we implement are to fit the mission goal of the project. Classic Everquest. Stupid indeed.

Perhaps the idea of functionality is being obscured by nostalgic conceptualization. Personally I can modify my play style, the idea that excessive clicking is somehow attributed to laziness is clearly off the mark and borders on pure cynicism. Repetitive motion is repetitive motion its either static to none static.

I can't speak for others as far as complaints, simply because I appreciate the fact that there isn't a monthly fee and a lot of work went into the concept. I would agree if Vah Shir were in the game it would detract from the original game, however repetitive motion was something that was discussed in the original game.

[stormlord]

I don't have endless amounts of compassion. My hands have never been hurt endlessly clicking, but I do have an aversion to it. I did not like all the clicking in Diablo II. I recall clicking a lot in 1999 when I was fletching. I got pretty good at it though. I'd move the two bags real close to eachother so I could click and move the components fast. Got to have hand eye coordination.

Fact is, endlessly clicking over and over will hurt your fingers and hands and wrists over a lifetime. Office workers know this very well. And preventing those with disabilities from using it's not good style.

The reason I don't like the modern tradeskill GUI is because it shows all of the recipes. I realize people can just look on allah to find recipes, but somehow putting it in the GUI itself feels wrong to me. It would be like putting a quest walk-through in the game or a master guide that shows all of the mobs in a zone and all of the items that drop on them. I mean, geez, if you want a walk-through or cheat guide, go to allah, don't make the game a walk-through. I don't play games to cheat, I play them to explore and discover.

I'm not trying to make people mad here. I don't want to click too much either. If the walk-through nature of live eq wasn't so in-your-face, i would love to scream about its awesomeness and less clicking. Why is it that every answer has to be made easily available, but the stuff that would really reduce the pain (like reduce clicking) but not answer every question is ignored unless it comes along with easy answers?

And keep in mind not everything about live eq is about less clicking. Combat has more clicking in live eq than here. I have less than 10 hotkeys here, and the combat-related ones are attached to keys. My ranger on live has 4 full hotkey bars and i end up clicking a lot of them during combat. I hear EQ2 has a lot more clicking.

When did less pain become interchangeable with easy answers? I know that I like to explore and find answers on my own. I don't want them supplied for me. Are most people risk-averse or hostile towards discovering things on their own? What's so bad about that? What happened to playing the game, not playing a walk-through?

[Omnimorph]

I'd put the tradeskill window in the same line as item links, sure it's not classic, but at the same time it was one of the few improvements that actually made the game better imo.

I can see it from both points of view in that the devs want to create as close to classic as they possibly can, and if you start leaving in bits and pieces from later expansions then what you end up with is neither classic , nor current eq but an idea that is away from what you initially wanted.

There will be those who complain about certain things that others will want left in, in this situation, you can't please all the people all the time, and the fairest way to deal with that would be to just go to the old "this is how it was in classic, this is how it will be"

So whilst i may have said i preferred it the other way, i think in order to preserve integrity it should probably be left as it is now :p

[stormlord]

I'd put the tradeskill window in the same line as item links, sure it's not classic, but at the same time it was one of the few improvements that actually made the game better imo.

I can see it from both points of view in that the devs want to create as close to classic as they possibly can, and if you start leaving in bits and pieces from later expansions then what you end up with is neither classic , nor current eq but an idea that is away from what you initially wanted.

There will be those who complain about certain things that others will want left in, in this situation, you can't please all the people all the time, and the fairest way to deal with that would be to just go to the old "this is how it was in classic, this is how it will be"

So whilst i may have said i preferred it the other way, i think in order to preserve integrity it should probably be left as it is now :p

If players had to build the search database on their own by experimenting I would agree that the tradeskill gui is better. However, automatically giving the player access to the search database without first exploring and experimenting, for me anyway, is just people wanting to cheat.

Just tell me: What's more important to you, being able to search any recipe so that you can train up your tradeskill as fast as possible, or being able to select a known recipe and producing the item without having to drag the components from another bag to the tradeskill container?

I agree with those who just want to be able to reduce the clicking, but not those who want to remove the journey just because they've already done it before and it's not fun anymore.

I don't know about you, but I value people more who read the tradeskill books to find recipes and experiment to find new ones. I think they earned their craft. This is true even for people who have made multiple blacksmithing characters and who might feel that adding the recipes to all of their characters is tremendously tedious. Just remember, it's only tedious because you chose to raise blacksmithing on several characters at once or in succession. You have already eaten up the content in the game, so nothing is going to make it fun again.

[Teiraa]

I think this issue is not just about what we like better ("true classic" vs. "less repetitive"), but a bit more complicated, because it is a change made to the servers after being up half a year. Hence, changing the system will "grandfather" those, who have already maxxed out their tradeskills.

But then, for most tradeskills, the big time sink is to gather the materials (or the plat) to do the combines, and not the crafting process in itself.

Our admins should be aware that any bigger change to the server will make people unhappy. If you make something easier, the older ones will complain; if you make something harder, the youngin's won't be happy.

Trying to make a server "true classic" is fine, but the effect on the community should be taken into account as well.

Personally, I'm have nothing against the old tradeskill system, with all the clickiness, the pre-Kunark hard skill caps at 200 (not sure whether this is implemented even), and so forth.

Wouldn't mind the new interface either. Just hope that our admins try to take "fairness" into account, and don't strive slavishly to be "classic" (which in my opinion they actually don't, so everything is fine). :)

[stormlord]

I think this issue is not just about what we like better ("true classic" vs. "less repetitive"), but a bit more complicated, because it is a change made to the servers after being up half a year. Hence, changing the system will "grandfather" those, who have already maxxed out their tradeskills.

But then, for most tradeskills, the big time sink is to gather the materials (or the plat) to do the combines, and not the crafting process in itself.

Our admins should be aware that any bigger change to the server will make people unhappy. If you make something easier, the older ones will complain; if you make something harder, the youngin's won't be happy.

Trying to make a server "true classic" is fine, but the effect on the community should be taken into account as well.

Personally, I'm have nothing against the old tradeskill system, with all the clickiness, the pre-Kunark hard skill caps at 200 (not sure whether this is implemented even), and so forth.

Wouldn't mind the new interface either. Just hope that our admins try to take "fairness" into account, and don't strive slavishly to be "classic" (which in my opinion they actually don't, so everything is fine). :)

I disagree. You assume in your post that making things harder is unacceptable to new people, and making things easy is unacceptable to old players. This assumption is sometimes wrong, and this is where you need some work. Not everyone wants every answer in front of them when they're a new player. That, by definition, is making things easier. So, straight from the start, your assumption clouds your ability to understand what's going on. You might assume it's not easy enough when these people leave. Or perhaps an old player is unhappy with something that was made harder, and leaves. You might misinterpret that as meaning it's not hard enough.

Not everything is black and white. If it was, none of us would be here at project1999. We'd all be playing EQ2 or WOW or something better than this. And there're some people here that're new to eq. This is a virtual certainty. And the population that visits this server might have a character all its own, and perhaps that population is not normal and doesn't follow your assumptions. I make assumption all the time just like you do, but sometimes other people have to point out our assumptions for us because we can't do it ourselves.

Remember, we have corpse returns and hell levels and old models and no pok. Some people believe that's impossible, especially those who play live eq. But, here we are, proving it wrong for the time being.

[Teiraa]

I disagree. You assume in your post that making things harder is unacceptable to new people, and making things easy is unacceptable to old players. This assumption is sometimes wrong, and this is where you need some work.
I didn't say "unacceptable". I said "unhappy", like in "unhappy but still willing to accept".

I agree that my statement is "sometimes wrong", as you say, but I still maintain that it is tendencially true.

[stormlord]

I didn't say "unacceptable". I said "unhappy", like in "unhappy but still willing to accept".

I agree that my statement is "sometimes wrong", as you say, but I still maintain that it is tendencially true.

And what if the population on this server does not fit the average? Can you rule that out?

I can collect a lot of people that're not 5'8, about the average male height in america. What stops me from making a club for people who're 6'1 and thus nobody fitting the average size male clothes?

Remember, it's an assumption, from the start, that this is even the average, let alone for p1999.

Some people thought project1999 would never happen because old ideas and old styles don't float in the modern world. Here we are, on the project1999 forum. Now prove to me that the old style tradeskill gui can't also float? You can't prove it, you can only turn to your assumptions. People had assumptions about corpse runs, hell levels, old models, downtime, and so on, that led them to believe project1999 can't happen.

That's where I disagree with you. I believe it can and will. Where I agree is that I wish there was less clicking. Read through my previous posts and you can get a picture of my viewpoint.

A picture is a thousand words or more.