Group exp split: Calculation

[Elements]

The wiki states that a group exp bonus is applied for each person added to a group; 2% bonus for 2 people, 6% bonus for 3 people, 10% bonus for 4 people, 14% bonus for 5 people, 20% bonus for 6 people.

With this in mind I often ask myself, "Is it worth it to add another member to my xp group?"

Sometimes the answer is a no brainer for example if you are in need of a tank, healer, CC, etc or if your group is spawn capped at its camp. The question becomes more difficult when you have 4 or 5 members and are considering adding a 5th or 6th.

Purely from an efficiency standpoint I tried to calculate how much more efficient a group would need to become when adding another member in order for rate of xp gain to stay the same or get better (assuming the new player is of equal level and experience total to all other members of the group).

Here is where I'd like someone to check the math.



Members. required % increase by adding another member
1
2 49.0
3 30.7
4 22.2
5 17.1
6 12.3

So a group of 5 would need to increase their efficiency by more than 12.3% by adding a 6th in order to increase their rate of xp gain. Similarly a group of 2 would need to increase their efficicency by more than 30.7% to increase their rate of xp gain. Keep in mind the earlier assumption about relative level and xp total for the new player. A high level ranger being added as a 6th player would require significantly higher increase in efficiency compared to adding an equal level halfling rogue.

Another interesting aside - if your group of 5 is spawn capped and considering adding a 6th (perhaps they are a guildy/friend, or perhaps your group is under the impression that there is this awesome group xp bonus that means you just get more xp for having more people in your group no matter what) then each members rate of xp gain will be reduced by 12.3% assuming equal level and xp total from the 6th member.

Final thoughts:

There is often safety in numbers and having that extra member around to help prevent a wipe when things get out of hand can greatly outweigh a loss in short term xp gain. However from a purely mathematical standpoint that 6th group member better be ready to pull their weight.

[Dreads]

Solid post, I always felt the same way whenever I'm in a group and people want a 6th member when we dont even really have extra spawns to kill such as when KC is heavily camped and all you're getting is LCY or something.

[Grozmok]

Strictly from an anecdotal standpoint, I've always observed that four group members were the most efficient. I'm a bit on the fence with adding a fifth for CC/Utility/Clarity, but your mileage may vary.

Main Damage Mitigation (tank)
Main Healer (ideally Cleric)
Main DPS 1
Main DPS 2

The fifth being a floater slot for rotating people out of the group as real life demands or a secondary healer if your main healer is not a cleric.

[eqravenprince]

It just all depends... it's all about what you are fighting. Do you need more safety or more dps. Assuming an ultra safe zone with plenty of mobs, adding an extra dps will almost always be beneficial for your experience bar moving faster.

[koros]

Assuming you are not spawn capped and have a capable puller, adding a 6th is almost always a good option.

First off, the healer isn't going to be doing much if any dps, the tank does minimal dps relative to dps classes.

So let's say a healer + tank does dps at a rate of 1.0. Giving a damage rate of .5 per person. If a dps does 2x the damage of a tank that goes up to 3.0 or 1.0 per person. A second dps brings that up to 5.0 or 1.25x a person.

Obviously, this is rudimentary guideline, a lot more factors must be considered. Which is why in practice 4-5 man groups are often more efficient than 6 man.

But I have to say, assuming things align, a ranger as your 6th slot is going to increase your xp gain, especially if your tank is a pally or a sk and you have someone spending most of their time pulling

[koros]

Strictly from an anecdotal standpoint, I've always observed that four group members were the most efficient. I'm a bit on the fence with adding a fifth for CC/Utility/Clarity, but your mileage may vary.

Main Damage Mitigation (tank)
Main Healer (ideally Cleric)
Main DPS 1
Main DPS 2

The fifth being a floater slot for rotating people out of the group as real life demands or a secondary healer if your main healer is not a cleric.

At the very least adding a chanter instead of a second dps is going to maintain the xp rate, if not improve it. Haste on the melee alone + nukes will make up the difference. Not to mention clarity and oh shit control.

[Ephirith]

I hear if you limit afk time to one minute per hour and pull through lunch break, group efficiency increases by 19.34%.

[eqravenprince]

I hear if you limit afk time to one minute per hour and pull through lunch break, group efficiency increases by 19.34%.

Haha, it's fun to talk about this stuff. I can tell you agree.

[webrunner5]

It always seems to me that 6 person groups seem to have someone AFK all the time.

[Grozmok]

It always seems to me that 6 person groups seem to have someone AFK all the time.

Omg this.

[Kender]

all the numbers mean precisly squat.

you are playing eq classic (or as close as there ever was that wasn't the actual eq classic)

what made it great? what drew you all back?

The one thing eq did better than any other mmo is create a sense of community. not enough mobs to add that 6th? screw that, come join us. 1 more person to chat to. one more social contact which might come back later with you being the 6th to be added.

It's the journey that's the most important. what's the point in being 60 with nothing to do because you were an asshat to the people you met along the way.

[fischsemmel]

what made it great? what drew you all back?

Bad argument.

Pong WAS great back in the day too, but no one is going to fire it back up and play it as much as they did back in the day... because it's not back in the day anymore.

So too, just because most of us played EQ back in the day without concerning ourselves with hybrid penalties and maximizing DPS and group xp bonuses and stuff... it isn't back in the day anymore. Obviously the OP is interested in/cares about/is concerned with what he's posting about, or he wouldn't post about it. Just because you don't share his interest doesn't mean you should be telling him what is fun and what to think.


Edit - actually your post is full of generalizations and untruths. The numbers mean what people want them to mean. What made the game great is somewhat irrelevant nowadays since few people are in the same situation to play now as they were before. Community was not the only thing that made eq special. The journey is only the most important thing for some people. Not inviting a 6th isn't "being an asshat" in and of itself. Etc.

[Kender]

the point i was trying to make is early eq (before all the boxing of 2-6 characters, before mercs etc) was all about grouping and social interaction.

Thats' what makes it different to so many other mmo's that have followed. That's why most people have fond memories of eq. That's why most people on here think eq as it is now on live has been ruined

I played eq for 5 years, then wow for 5 years. I have more memorable moments from eq than wow.

so forget the numbers. add in that 6th. This is s small community, you'll probably end up grouping with that person many more times.

[YendorLootmonkey]

The wiki states that a group exp bonus is applied for each person added to a group; 2% bonus for 2 people, 6% bonus for 3 people, 10% bonus for 4 people, 14% bonus for 5 people, 20% bonus for 6 people.

The wiki is wrong. That group bonus did not go into effect until Velious:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html


Our goal is to get people grouping earlier, and provide them enough of a bonus where they do not feel that they are losing ground during the learning process. We feel we can do this by doubling the grouping experience bonus and by scaling it up based on the size of the group. Currently, the bonus is an additional 2% experience per group member, not counting the first one, leading to a maximum bonus of 10%. Following the next patch, the bonus will be as follows:


2 person group - 2% total bonus.
3 person group - 6% total bonus.
4 person group - 10% total bonus.
5 person group - 14% total bonus.
6 person group - 20% total bonus.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Current group bonus should be 2% per member starting with the second, 10% with full group.

That was the original bonus up through velious when it was changed to the version quoted in this thread. That happened in the same Jan 2001 patch that removed class xp penalties.

[stormlord]

The wiki states that a group exp bonus is applied for each person added to a group; 2% bonus for 2 people, 6% bonus for 3 people, 10% bonus for 4 people, 14% bonus for 5 people, 20% bonus for 6 people.

With this in mind I often ask myself, "Is it worth it to add another member to my xp group?"

Sometimes the answer is a no brainer for example if you are in need of a tank, healer, CC, etc or if your group is spawn capped at its camp. The question becomes more difficult when you have 4 or 5 members and are considering adding a 5th or 6th.

Purely from an efficiency standpoint I tried to calculate how much more efficient a group would need to become when adding another member in order for rate of xp gain to stay the same or get better (assuming the new player is of equal level and experience total to all other members of the group).

Here is where I'd like someone to check the math.



Members. required % increase by adding another member
1
2 49.0
3 30.7
4 22.2
5 17.1
6 12.3

So a group of 5 would need to increase their efficiency by more than 12.3% by adding a 6th in order to increase their rate of xp gain. Similarly a group of 2 would need to increase their efficicency by more than 30.7% to increase their rate of xp gain. Keep in mind the earlier assumption about relative level and xp total for the new player. A high level ranger being added as a 6th player would require significantly higher increase in efficiency compared to adding an equal level halfling rogue.

Another interesting aside - if your group of 5 is spawn capped and considering adding a 6th (perhaps they are a guildy/friend, or perhaps your group is under the impression that there is this awesome group xp bonus that means you just get more xp for having more people in your group no matter what) then each members rate of xp gain will be reduced by 12.3% assuming equal level and xp total from the 6th member.

Final thoughts:

There is often safety in numbers and having that extra member around to help prevent a wipe when things get out of hand can greatly outweigh a loss in short term xp gain. However from a purely mathematical standpoint that 6th group member better be ready to pull their weight.
I read that it was 66% with 2 people; +16% with 2. At 5 and 6 players it was 33%, which is +100%.

So I heard wrong or is that only at a point after luclin? If what you say is true, there's very little incentive to group unless it's critical like cleric or tank or something. I'd be surprised.

I like the exp change they made to the progression server on live. They made it so that adding another member to the group ALWAYS speeds up experience IF the person does something (anything). If they do nothing then it neither adds nor removes. IMHO, a very nice thing to see. There're finer details that're an issue, however. I've commented about this in the past. It has to do with solo-classes (druid, necro, etc).

[stormlord]

all the numbers mean precisly squat.

you are playing eq classic (or as close as there ever was that wasn't the actual eq classic)

what made it great? what drew you all back?

The one thing eq did better than any other mmo is create a sense of community. not enough mobs to add that 6th? screw that, come join us. 1 more person to chat to. one more social contact which might come back later with you being the 6th to be added.

It's the journey that's the most important. what's the point in being 60 with nothing to do because you were an asshat to the people you met along the way.
I agree, but don't ignore the mechanics underneath the hood. For example, taking a ride on the countryside and enjoying the sights is a beautiful thing. And to have someone with you to talk to about it can be even better. However, if the engine coughs smoke and the car sputters to a stop then the journey is going nowhere fast.

It's not about having nothing to kill so you talk, it's about talking to talk. Some get it, some don't. Me, I can level up slowly and be ok with it. I change games all the time too. I feel different than most players. I can see a guy in the best gear out there and it's exciting. But I don't immediately feel as though I need or -must- have what he has! I just let it cook slowly in the back of my mind, serving as another reason to keep playing.

I do think that some people get caught up in the rush, though. With no forced downtime, a lot of them are like mice on a wheel. But forced downtime didn't give anybody an option - that's a problem.

[Galaa]

so the XP on P99 is 10% for a 6 member group instead of 20%?

10% seems too little to make it worthwhile to have a full group...

Should increase it, to encourage more grouping IMO.

[fischsemmel]

I agree, but don't ignore the mechanics underneath the hood. For example, taking a ride on the countryside and enjoying the sights is a beautiful thing. And to have someone with you to talk to about it can be even better. However, if the engine coughs smoke and the car sputters to a stop then the journey is going nowhere fast.

Yay analogy! :D

[fischsemmel]

so the XP on P99 is 10% for a 6 member group instead of 20%?

10% seems too little to make it worthwhile to have a full group...

Should increase it, to encourage more grouping IMO.

Groups on here suck. If you don't want to join for for the social aspect that kender was talking about or because you're trying to get a fbss on your level 41 warrior or something... the xp is shitty. Buuuuttt... I don't foresee a change to encourage grouping being put in place. Not classic, etc.

I think a combination of 1) in larger groups at least 1 person tends to think it's ok to slack off and/or afk a lot; 2) full leveling groups tend to form up in spots where a full group is overkill for the # and level available spawns; 3) full groups tend to have a very wide range of xp values, which really hurts the xp gain for the lowest xp members; and 4) full leveling groups too often hang out in zones like oasis, overthere, and dreadlands, where there may be an abundance of stuff to kill but where there is no good ZEM.

Everyone is much better off, imo, with small groups (3-4) or duo or solo, if the only thing you're concerned about is xp and not going insane because of shitty groups. Plus if you're doing small group or duo you still get the social aspect and friendmaking of the game.

[Estu]

Groups on here suck. If you don't want to join for for the social aspect that kender was talking about or because you're trying to get a fbss on your level 41 warrior or something... the xp is shitty. Buuuuttt... I don't foresee a change to encourage grouping being put in place. Not classic, etc.

I think a combination of 1) in larger groups at least 1 person tends to think it's ok to slack off and/or afk a lot; 2) full leveling groups tend to form up in spots where a full group is overkill for the # and level available spawns; 3) full groups tend to have a very wide range of xp values, which really hurts the xp gain for the lowest xp members; and 4) full leveling groups too often hang out in zones like oasis, overthere, and dreadlands, where there may be an abundance of stuff to kill but where there is no good ZEM.

Everyone is much better off, imo, with small groups (3-4) or duo or solo, if the only thing you're concerned about is xp and not going insane because of shitty groups. Plus if you're doing small group or duo you still get the social aspect and friendmaking of the game.

100% agree with this post. Don't oversaturate your groups and don't group in non-dungeon zones unless it's something special like an AOE group.

[Elements]

all the numbers mean precisly squat.

you are playing eq classic (or as close as there ever was that wasn't the actual eq classic)

what made it great? what drew you all back?

The one thing eq did better than any other mmo is create a sense of community. not enough mobs to add that 6th? screw that, come join us. 1 more person to chat to. one more social contact which might come back later with you being the 6th to be added.

It's the journey that's the most important. what's the point in being 60 with nothing to do because you were an asshat to the people you met along the way.

The numbers are there to guide a decision, not make it for you. If I had the option of adding a friend to the last spot even if spawn capped I would do so. I my group was asking me "the group leader" to pick up a 6th for the group xp bonus and telling me to invite the butt head monk who was training me the previous day, then hell no. I'd refer to the numbers first, and then to the fact that the guy is a butt head and everyone in the group would feel a lot better about staying a group of 5.

I also have to agree with those who mentioned full groups having members slacking off. Seems like having 6 people gaurantees constant afks and poor behavior.

[stormlord]

I did some googling and found the following...

http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=8649&TabID=70631&ForumID=36146&TopicID=1241228

According to that link, the old exp distribution (someone else mentioned it was installed during Velious) was a max of +20% with 6 people. The new exp distribution (installed either during 2003 or 2005) was a max of +80% with 5 and 6 people.

Here is another link about the older exp distribution (Velious):
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html
This bonus is applied to the total experience reward for killing a creature prior to distributing it to the group.

Many people have pointed out that when killing in a group you get less experience per kill. This is of course true, but what is often missed is that you can kill many more creatures, and creatures of a higher level when in that group. For instance, a good two-person group should be able to kill things of a higher level over twice as fast as a solo person should. Now, we're going to give them even more of a bonus for doing so, AND make it easier for people to find pickup groups on the basis of getting higher scaled bonus.So when we're judging the bonus we will get, we must also carefully consider HOW the classes combine together to perhaps increase the killing power or survivable of the group.

Personally, I can see the logic there, but it isn't as clear as I'd like. A rogue obviously benefits from a group because he/she can backstab. A rogue also doesn't make a great tank. But what about a ranger? Disregarding the exp penalty, the ranger's dps doesn't increase noticeably while in a group. However, a ranger isn't the best tank, so they could get a bonus by grouping with a knight class or a warrior. Neither is a ranger the best healer, so having a better healer might speed things up. It might also be possible that with each level increase in the creature you're attacking, the expereince you receive is roughly exponential. This means that attacking someting with a higher con might be more effective, if you can handle it. Beyond these obvious points, I think that EQ creatures do not parry or dodge or block when you're attacking them from behind. So this is something else to consider. But I still wish all of this was clearer. Grouping benefits shouldn't be so blurry.

Everything is relative, though. Sometimes it comes down to utility or raw numbers or just social benefits. And then there's hte issue that you might not know the zone so you group with someone who does.

I liked the exp formula on Shadowbane. In that, you would get the same experience per kill no matter who or how many you were grouped with. The exp you got was directly related to how fast you killed. This is similar to what they have on the progression server on live right now. I think it's a nice formula. In Shadowbane's case, there was a lot of plvling, since player lvl wasn't factored. If I remember right, they did cap the amount you could get per level (so lvling on high level creatures was very slow). Something like that might not work well on EQ. But I suppose it's not too far off from the mentor feature a lot of games have nowadays.

Once you know how the mechanics work it can also make the game less fun. For example, if you -know- you're getting less experience in a group than alone, it'll take some of the enjoyment away. It depends. I was a ranger for a long time and was well aware that I got exp slower often times in groups. Sometimes it was faster, but that was rare. But soloing can get very boring and grindy. Whne you're in a group, it's more dynamic.

Never forget to challenge yourself, or you'll get bored fast!

[Grozmok]

Grouping is fun, you can't get it in other games (to the same effect as EQ) and to be honest if you want to be anti-social just go play WoW.

You can level yourself from 1-max level without ever having to talk to a single person. Hell, you can PuG your way through instances too.

Meh, I'm over it.