The Plight of the Shadow Knight

[Tajin898]

This thread is just my attempt to get feedback from everyone on what the life of a Shadow Knight looks like into Kunark and ultimately Velious.

The word on the street is that SK's have it very well right now, great aggro-holders and what not. But that Warriors begin to take the lead in Kunark and hold it throughout Velious. So, what becomes of SK's (and ultimately Paladins as well, though I'm only concerned about SK's in this thread)?

Are they still sought after as tanks? Can they raid tank? Can they solo? Just looking for overall thoughts on what to expect through the coming 2 expansions.

Thanks so much for the feedback!

[Tallenn]

As far as I know, it is only /disc defensive that makes warriors any better at tanking anything than SKs/Pallys. Knights will always be able to get and hold agro better, and aside from defensive will always be able to take the hits just as well.

[xorbier]

It depends if your talking about grouping or raiding. In my experience warriors were the preferred tank in Kunark and Velious but sk's and paly's did fine in groups. Warriors really shined on raids where they are significantly superior. This is a fact and I would tend to think most would agree. This isn't to say sk's or paly's are bad but higher hit points, higher ac, and defensive abilities are all contributing factors that make warriors better at taking damage. Which class does the most damage is another story but that's not a tanks priority.

Having played a warrior from classic to PoP I will say it's harder for them to keep aggro initially, but this gets easier with better weapons released in Kunark and even easier in Velious where the difference is negligible. I never had issues getting groups and was frequently told I was much easier to heal then SKs or Palys.

If your goal is to be a raid tank you should consider rolling a warrior. If you want the flexibility of tanking and playing a dps role SKs would probably be the better choice. SKs tend to be preferred as a dps role as well.

If you disagree you're a racist.

[President]

As far as I know, it is only /disc defensive that makes warriors any better at tanking anything than SKs/Pallys. Knights will always be able to get and hold agro better, and aside from defensive will always be able to take the hits just as well.

Uh warriors take hits much better than SK's and Pallys.

[Skope]

I've had Sks tank on a few raids during kunark/velious and they did very well. Don't think it's "much better," in fact i think the difference has always remained quite slight.

[TheDudeAbides]

In Kunark/Velious it's no contest

Warrior hands down

[LevinJ]

I played an SK in classic through the opening of velious, so I will speak mostly to the Kunark era. SK's in Kunark are pretty similar to how a lvl50 SK is now. Not the ideal raid tank, but not completely incapable. Sufficient for groups, but not a "pure" tank like a Warrior. SKs are much more versatile and arguably bring more to the table in groups than warriors though. SKs hold aggro better, can feign pull, can snare to stop runners, etc. SKs are also capable of soloing efficiently enough. At lvl58, they get the lvl44 Necro pet which isn't too shabby. I was able to fear kite in Skyfire or burning woods pretty effectively which is a nice alternative when no groups are available.

[arblis]

Tanking- warriors should always win. They do, and Discs are how they do.

Groups, burst dmg dealers love hybrid tanks. The added healing from lifetaps and self heals helps enough that shm / druids are fine healing them through almost all of velious. Hybrids typically are better in XP grinding groups, and Warriors in slow camps with a big boss. Xp past 50 might not matter now, but AAs change that forever.

Raids- Warriors will always be center stage. As should be, imho. Remember though, that encounters with adds, pull teams and (for a short while) big HT's matter a ton. Hybrid tanks SHINE on fights that require a rez team, as the expected burn rate of tanks is higher.

Also, gear is what defines classes at this point, in the coming expansions you see much more gear that is diversified in who can use it.

Keep in mind, their are also a few raid encounters and group situations where any tank with a good set of resist gear is the best MT.

[Kainzo]

In classic / kunark and veilous.....

I was in raiding guilds in both expansions (in the guild that awoke the sleeper first world wide - drow.org)
We used Paladins and Shadow Knights as off tanks, nothing more. PoP was the first expansion that we actually started using the hybrid tanks as MT's for fights that used fearless (Inny - PoTime)
However, there is a ton of clearing and a few bosses with multiple adds that need off tanking during the fight. So center stage won't happen in Kunark/Veilous but is a definite in later expansions.

[Reubin]

The word on the street is that SK's have it very well right now, great aggro-holders and what not. But that Warriors begin to take the lead in Kunark and hold it throughout Velious. So, what becomes of SK's (and ultimately Paladins as well, though I'm only concerned about SK's in this thread)?


That's pretty much what I remember. In the year after Kunark was released ALL hybrids were whining constantly about how much their classes sucked. Rangers complained they didn't have enough hp/ac to tank or enough DPS to get a DPS slot over a Rogue or a Warrior with higher weapons skills. Shadow Knights complained that they didn't have the defensive skills, HPS, or DPS of a Warrior (and complained Paladins had heals so they would be 2nd most sought after tank). Paladins complained they didn't have the defensive skills, HPS, or DPS of a Warrior (and complained that Shadow Knights had FD and snare so they were great pullers and could hold agro better than any other class so they would be the 2nd most sought after tank). Most of the Bard complaints I heard were more about issues with their songs not working correctly and crappy DPS.

At first, knowing that P99 was only going to go into Velious, I couldn't believe how many Paladins (widely considered a little more worse off than SKs because they couldn't be big races with extra HPs) and Shadow Knights there were on P99. If you went to EQ message boards in 2000 & 2001 you'd remember CONSTANT complaining and whining from the 3 main hybrid classes (no diss to Bards but their mechanics are just way different). There was even a melee rebalancing that went into effect at some point to "fix" some of these issues. I think a lot of this was mis-representation...but the vocal minority who bitched constantly to try to get whatever changes they wanted made had everyone thinking Hybrids were just completely useless for a while (until AAs in Luclin I believe). As a Cleric and a Ranger in classic EQ I can say that, from my point of view, these were almost always false perceptions.

That said, it is different on P99 than it was on live from what I can see. Sure there are lots of "Rangers Suck" comments, but it seems to mostly be jokes (and Rangers most certainly never sucked...though they do get weaker in Kunark). I've never had anyone in a group I'm in say that xxxx class can't join. I'm a Cleric and I'm happy to heal anyone. It may be a little less mana efficient at times...but I did it on live without too much problem and I can certainly do it here where everyone has much better knowledge of the game. I also played a Ranger on live through Velious, so I know that even if your class isn't considered the "best" it's more about 1) how well you KNOW the class, and 2) what kind of person/groupmate you are. If you are cool and know you're class I'll always have room for you.

Try not to be too concerned with whether or not your class is going to be as needed as xxxx class. Obviously people talk about the "holy trinity" of Cleric/Warrior/Enchanter for a reason. Some classes are just a little less interchangeable than others. But if you love playing your Shadow Knight and the Warrior class isn't what you want, then you will always make a better SK than a Warrior. And I'd rather have a hybrid who knows his class than a non-hybrid who sucks at his (or is a jerk for that matter) in my groups any day.

[Tallenn]

Uh warriors take hits much better than SK's and Pallys.

I keep hearing that, but so far, I've never heard of any mechanic that actually makes it true. I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm honestly curious about exactly HOW warriors are able to take more damage than Paladins and SKs.

Do they have a different mitigation table?
Do they have access to gear with much better AC?
Do they have a higher mitigation cap?

I've already mentioned defensive disc, but aside from that (it's got a recast delay, and it's only a short term -usually 1 fight- discipline) what specific game mechanic(s) make warriors better?

I generally played a healer class in live- druid, then cleric- and I noticed a considerable difference in ability to hold agro, but almost no difference in ability to take damage. This was not just classic, but all the way through LDoN. Now the fact is, tanks always have been, and probably always will be, under-represented, so you take whoever you can get for your group, but when there's a choice, most people will choose the SK, then the Pal, then the War for an XP group.

All I have to go by is the perception, based on personal experience. If you have real game data to refute that perception, some real in-game mechanic that really does help warriors take damage better than knights, then I honestly, truly would like to hear it, and see the evidence.

[Wolrok]

If I remember correctly, warriors have higher defensive skill caps (which gives slightly higher mitigation) and gets more HP from stamina than paladins or shadowknights. I believe they also have passive damage reduction (5% less damage?).

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if on P1999, that a shadowknight or paladin ends up main tanking some of the Kunark/Velious raids.

Player skill is quite a bit different now than it was back when those expansions were first released.

[Nedala]

At least the ToV armor for warriors is way better and has a good amound more AC than the paladin ToV armor.

[Kainzo]

If I remember correctly, warriors have higher defensive skill caps (which gives slightly higher mitigation) and gets more HP from stamina than paladins or shadowknights. I believe they also have passive damage reduction (5% less damage?).

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if on P1999, that a shadowknight or paladin ends up main tanking some of the Kunark/Velious raids.

Player skill is quite a bit different now than it was back when those expansions were first released.

Player skill is about the same, there are just more players in the MMO genre.

[Tallenn]

Velious quest armors seem to be about 18-26% more AC for warriors. Ok, I'll buy that. Of course, that's Velious, so a ways off.

Is there a soft cap for AC that is easily reached by raid-geared tanks in Classic, Kunark, or Velious? Honestly, I don't know, that's why I'm asking. I swear I remember hearing folks talking about something like that (well seeing actually- in chat :p)

As for the other stuff: more HPs from stamina, higher defensive skill caps, passive damage reduction- there MUST be somewhere that spells all of these things out, with parses to back them up, right? Steel Warrior maybe? I've honestly not played a melee very much at all, so I never really got into all those discussions back in the day. I was more interested in discussions about reducing mana use, and figuring mana pools and meditation regen rates, and so forth. Surely there must be folks on this server that have played the melee meta-game in live that can point us to all of that data?

[JayDee]

Player skill is about the same, there are just more players in the MMO genre.

Nah people who play now are generally more skilled.

Although I fail to see how that affects how an sk will tank raids.

[Kainzo]

Nah people who play now are generally more skilled.

Although I fail to see how that affects how an sk will tank raids.

People are people... I don't believe the average IQ has risen that drastically in the last 10 years, but some of the "unknown" information has been released, however information does not always equate "skill". If anything, I hate to say it, but I think its lowered ;)

There's no hard evidence either way, but if you take any of the OOC/auction spams as any kind of indication I would lean toward less IQ overall.

[Dantes]

Yeah but the stat-mongering has increased. People know more now than they did in 1999 about the game mechanics and how they work. The 1999 audience had no clue, other than what they read on spoiler sites.

[hrafn]

http://www.therunes.net/guide_ac.html

[President]

Tallenn,
As posted above in a link, Warriors get more use out of their AC than other classes. End game gear for warriors also has more AC than it does for SK's/Pally's.

I don't know the whole break down, but there are other things that contribute also. (Someone stated higher defensive skill cap, and more base hp?).

One thing I do remember though from leveling up on this server is that healers would always comment on how much easier it was if I was taking the hits versus a paladin or shadowknight that was in the group pulling aggro. This could have been gear related, but I don't think I had that stellar of gear.

Also, I currently use an Amygndalin Tendril or whatever + a yak. When we are in fear/hate, an SK literally has to torch his mana to keep it on him instead of me, and generally has a hard time even doing this except for he generally can get in 2-3 spells before the mob gets to the raid. If I had two Yak's I'm sure it would be even more difficult. This also brings the point that SK/Pally is reliant on his mana to hold aggro, where as a warrior is only reliant on DPS/Procs which are relatively steady and never ending.

[Tallenn]

http://www.therunes.net/guide_ac.html

extremely informative, and very detailed. thanks!

Well, I guess there is measurable difference in warrior and knight ability to take hits, after all. I honestly didn't know that.

As I mentioned above though, I doubt too many people really take that into account. More often than not, you are just happy to find ANYONE to tank in a PUG. I have yet to see even one person mention anything about wanting one class over another... one person over another based on level has come up though.

[girth]

I wonder if that sites info about ac applies fully on here.

I had never heard that stuff about shield AC or over the soft cap AC, as I played a monk on live.

Good stuff

[hrafn]

I'd like to know if AC is working as intended as well.

[Taminy]

Warriors take hits better than SKs, because they tend to have higher hps and higher ac than SKs.

Warriors have higher innate magic resist.

Warriors have defensive and evasive.

Warriors do more damage (triple attack, higher skill caps, critical hits and crippling blows).

SKs hold aggro better and have more utility.

/shrug.