Starting Stats: Ogre Shaman

[Faywind]

So I'm starting up an Ogre Shaman and I can't decide between 3 different ways to put my stats. I know it won't be game breaking in anyway on which I decide but I am kind of a min/max'er so I'd like to get a sense of what would be the best route. I plan to solo mostly.

Option 1:
All STA
5 in AGI
Remaining points in WIS

Option 2:
All STA
Remaining points in WIS

Option 3:
All WIS
Remaining points in STA

I've read many posts regarding starting stats and for whatever reason I still can't make up my mind! :mad:

[Slave]

- Agility to 75
- Remaining points in Stamina
- Any leftover points in Wisdom

Option 1 is correct.

[webrunner5]

- Agility to 75
- Remaining points in Stamina
- Any leftover points in Wisdom

Option 1 is correct.

What he said. The only reason to make a Ogre Shaman is for the Stun imuntity, also the best Melee starting stats which means you will be able to take a beating more than other races can. Hence the Sta for HP. When Velious comes out you will be glad to have the extra AC and HP. Because in Velious the Mobs HPs really jump up. You will need to melee more than ever.

[Messianic]

Yes, because starting stats is the only way you can ever gain 5 agility as a shaman with free clicky jaundiced armor in the game of EverQuest.

Improved!

I dunno, I think the STA recommendation is bunk. Max Wis means you have more room for +Mana/HP items. Only played an epic shaman secondhand, but given the #'s on hp/sta and mana/wis and what you get out of each, just seems like maxing wis is more efficient.


Even though the distribution of 20 stat points pretty much approaches pure insignificance at 60...

[Slave]

just seems like maxing wis is more efficient.


It's not.

Even though the distribution of 20 stat points pretty much approaches pure insignificance at 60...

It doesn't.

[Malrubius]

Doesn't matter. Get your AGI to 75, then put the rest in WIS or STA or whatever.

40-ish extra hps at level 60 (for 20 sta)? You'd never notice.

[fischsemmel]

Doesn't matter. Get your AGI to 75, then put the rest in WIS or STA or whatever.

40-ish extra hps at level 60 (for 20 sta)? You'd never notice.

As insignificant as 40 hp are, in the last two months there have been at least 2 or 3 times where I survived something by less than that amount.

[Messianic]

It's not. It doesn't.

Thank you for your insightful and enlightening comments. A better response would have been nothing, as your post takes up space.

As I've read most of Reiker's recommendations regarding the shaman class in the past two years and found him one of the most insightful, push come to shove (i.e. if I was rolling a shaman), i'd trust him despite my "sense" that maxing wisdom would be more helpful. But I keep my reservations for now.

But if you'd like to defend the idea that 40-50 extra hp (correct me if i'm wrong) at level 60 is going to make or break a character, have at it.

[fischsemmel]

No one said that 40 hit points from base stats is going to make or break a character, Messianic. He said that they don't approach pure insignificance.

[fischsemmel]

Imo, wisdom on a sham is like int on a necro. A larger mana pool is not useless, but when leveling speed is controlled by mana REGEN, not by max mana, and when raid fights are so short, a larger mana pool is usually considered to be less valuable than more hit points (which can be turned into mana and/or which help keep you alive longer).

[Messianic]

No one said that 40 hit points from base stats is going to make or break a character, Messianic. He said that they don't approach pure insignificance.

Fine, they "approach insignificance," as it become less important as gear gets better.

Happy?

[Slave]

Messianic, I'm not really sure if you're trolling because if in fact you've read these guides, and considering your 2500 posts on these forums, I assumed you had internalized that, 12 years on, it is generally regarded that mana is one of the weakest stats in the game for any class, let alone Shaman. The only two classes that maximum mana makes any real difference with is Wizards and Druids, because they can kill 4 mobs at a time rather than 1.

HPs, though, NEVER become obsolete. It doesn't have a hard cap, a soft cap, nothing. You can get enough AC, you can get enough resists for your chosen raid, but you can never get enough HPs to the point that they become less effective. Especially for Shaman who can do so very much with them.

That alone would put Stamina in the highest priority but then you have the fact that Stamina is easily the hardest attribute to raise through itemization. By mid-Velious, you will have maximum Wisdom on a freaking Ogre, anyway.

[Grozmok]

AC>HP>WIS>STA

Compilation of Shaman STAMINA vs. WISDOM data points (Note: This does not take +HP items into account)

For each +1 to STA (below 255), a Shaman gains 0.05 hit points per level (so +2 hp per +1 STA at Level 40).
For each +1 to STA (above 255), a Shaman gains 0.025 hit points per level (so +1 hp per +1 STA at Level 40).
Given the HP-per-STA ratios +1 STA buys the Shaman an effective 0.025 (STA>255) to 0.05 (STA<255) HP per level

For each +1 to WIS (below 200), a Shaman gains 0.2 mana points per level (so +8 mana per +1 WIS at Level 40).
For each +1 to WIS (above 200), a Shaman gains ~0.0775 mana points per level (so +3.1 mana per +1 WIS at Level 40).
Given the Mana-per-WIS ratios +1 WIS buys the Shaman an effective ~0.08 (WIS>200) to 0.2 (WIS<200) Mana per level

A Shaman can convert their own HP to Mana using various Cannibalize spells; the theoretical best conversion ratio being 1.57 (Cannibalize III @ Level 60) hp:mana:

Cannibalize I (LVL 24): consume 50 hp, gain 19-30 mana (conversion ratio is 1.66 to 2.63 hp:mana)
Cannibalize II (LVL 38): consume 67 hp, gain 30-42 mana (conversion ratio is 1.60 to 2.23 hp:mana)
Cannibalize III (LVL 54): consume 100 hp, gain 39-47 Mana (conversion ratio is 2.13 to 2.56 hp:mana)
Cannibalize IV (LVL 58): consume 148 hp, gain 81-82 mana (conversion ratio is 1.80 to 1.83 hp:mana)

A Shaman can convert Mana to HP using various Healing spells; the theoretical best high-bandwidth hp:mana conversion ratio being 6.0 (Torpor):

Greater Healing (LVL 29): consume 115 mana, gain up to 350 hp (conversion ratio is 3.04 hp:mana)
Stoicism (LVL 44): consume 180 mana, gain 640 hp (conversion ratio is 3.56 hp:mana)
Superior Healing (LVL 51): consume 185 mana, gain 600 hp (conversion ratio is 3.24 hp:mana)
Chloroblast (LVL 55): consume 331 mana, gain up to 994-1044 hp (conversion ratio is 3.0 to 3.15 hp:mana)
Kragg's Mending (LVL 58): consume 400 mana, gain up to 1950 hp (conversion ratio is less than 4.875 hp:mana)
Torpor (LVL 60): consume 200 mana, gain 1200 hp (conversion ratio is 6.0 hp:mana)

plus you can probably leverage some additional slow-rate high-efficiency conversion with stuff like:

Regrowth (LVL 52): consume 180 mana, slowly gain up to 4100 hp (limited-bandwidth conv. ratio of 22.78)

General thoughts:
Given that Shamen can readily convert their HP to mana and back, their HP & mana pools both contribute to their overall "mana pool depth"
Given the HP:Mana conversion ratios we can generalize and say that 1 Mana Point > 1 Hit Point (in fact, 1 MP ~= 1.6 HP or worse).
Given our best-case sustainable HP-to-Mana conversion rate of 1.6:1, each +1 STA buys the Shaman an effective 0.016 (STA>255) to 0.031 (STA<255) Mana per level.

For WIS < 200 and STA < 255, each +1 WIS buys the Shaman over 6x as much Mana (0.2 vs. 0.031) as would a +1 STA
For WIS > 200 and STA > 255, each +1 WIS buys the Shaman over 3x as much Mana (0.08 vs. 0.025) as would a +1 STA
Even for WIS > 200 and STA < 255, each +1 WIS buys the Shaman over 1.6x as much Mana (0.08 vs. 0.05) as would a +1 STA

For pure Mana consideration, a higher WIS *dramatically* beats out over a higher STA


That said, there are some meta-considerations as well to be taken into account:
When you reach 0 mana, you are OOM. When you reach 0 HP, you are dead. Therefore, HP are obviously important.
The higher your HP, the bigger your "Cannibalize buffer" is, i.e. how much overhead you have to play with before feeling vulnerable.
Since it's "easy" to reach your stat caps, any +WIS above cap is wasted and should instead be giving you +STA (and vice-versa).
Draining your Mana pool is better than draining your HP, in that you regain Mana faster while medding than HP.
Draining your HP pool is better than draining your Mana, in that others (esp. Druid, Cleric) can refill your HP for you much more easily than your Mana.
None of this takes any special HP or mana regen items into account. TLDR: AC>HP>WIS>STA

[Faywind]

Thanks everyone for the replies!!

I think it's quite clear to me now. I think I will go with Option 2 from a min/max standpoint due to the rarity of +STA items. As stated above, getting max WIS shouldn't be hard come endgame so even though Grozmok is correct in saying WIS is more important than STA, I think giving me a head start in STA early on will benefit me in the long run.

See you all in game!

[Slave]

I think I will go with Option 2

What is it that you have against a great big gob of Armor Class, sir?

[Faywind]

What is it that you have against a great big gob of Armor Class, sir?

Not sure what you mean, but if you are talking about the AC penalty of having under 75 AGI, I'm not too worried about that. I get an AGI spell at lvl 5 and I'm sure once I'm fully geared there will be at least 5 AGI coming from gear alone.

[webrunner5]

If you die, and are naked, are oom, and have to go 4 zones to get to your corpse, you will kiss ass for 5 Agi.

[Flunklesnarkin]

If you die, and are naked, are oom, and have to go 4 zones to get to your corpse, you will kiss ass for 5 Agi.

Keep a 5 agi item in the bank with a sow pot..

problem solved ;p

[Grahm]

as a shaman I always carry SoW pots.

[Slave]

As a shaman I always bind next to a bank too. :)

But really, AGI is not part of your common self buff lineup for groups. And if you're casting it on yourself, you're usually wasting mana and time in that situation. But you'll still probably draw aggro every now and then from resisted slows, what have you, and be thankful for that like THIRTY extra AC that AGI 75 provides over AGI 70. Not to mention that it actually says AGI under 75 affects your movement rate in the P99 Wiki. It adds up.

[Haul]

If you die, and are naked, are oom, and have to go 4 zones to get to your corpse, you will kiss ass for 5 Agi.

+1 but moreso for pvp server

[Galelor]

AC>HP>WIS>STA

Quote:
Compilation of Shaman STAMINA vs. WISDOM data points (Note: This does not take +HP items into account)

For each +1 to STA (below 255), a Shaman gains 0.05 hit points per level (so +2 hp per +1 STA at Level 40).
For each +1 to STA (above 255), a Shaman gains 0.025 hit points per level (so +1 hp per +1 STA at Level 40).
Given the HP-per-STA ratios +1 STA buys the Shaman an effective 0.025 (STA>255) to 0.05 (STA<255) HP per level

For each +1 to WIS (below 200), a Shaman gains 0.2 mana points per level (so +8 mana per +1 WIS at Level 40).
For each +1 to WIS (above 200), a Shaman gains ~0.0775 mana points per level (so +3.1 mana per +1 WIS at Level 40).
Given the Mana-per-WIS ratios +1 WIS buys the Shaman an effective ~0.08 (WIS>200) to 0.2 (WIS<200) Mana per level

A Shaman can convert their own HP to Mana using various Cannibalize spells; the theoretical best conversion ratio being 1.57 (Cannibalize III @ Level 60) hp:mana:

Cannibalize I (LVL 24): consume 50 hp, gain 19-30 mana (conversion ratio is 1.66 to 2.63 hp:mana)
Cannibalize II (LVL 38): consume 67 hp, gain 30-42 mana (conversion ratio is 1.60 to 2.23 hp:mana)
Cannibalize III (LVL 54): consume 74 hp, gain 39-47 mana (conversion ratio is 1.57 to 1.90 hp:mana)
Cannibalize IV (LVL 58): consume 148 hp, gain 81-82 mana (conversion ratio is 1.80 to 1.83 hp:mana)

A Shaman can convert Mana to HP using various Healing spells; the theoretical best high-bandwidth hp:mana conversion ratio being 6.0 (Torpor):

Greater Healing (LVL 29): consume 115 mana, gain up to 350 hp (conversion ratio is 3.04 hp:mana)
Stoicism (LVL 44): consume 180 mana, gain 640 hp (conversion ratio is 3.56 hp:mana)
Superior Healing (LVL 51): consume 185 mana, gain 600 hp (conversion ratio is 3.24 hp:mana)
Chloroblast (LVL 55): consume 331 mana, gain up to 994-1044 hp (conversion ratio is 3.0 to 3.15 hp:mana)
Kragg's Mending (LVL 58): consume 400 mana, gain up to 1950 hp (conversion ratio is less than 4.875 hp:mana)
Torpor (LVL 60): consume 200 mana, gain 1200 hp (conversion ratio is 6.0 hp:mana)

plus you can probably leverage some additional slow-rate high-efficiency conversion with stuff like:

Regrowth (LVL 52): consume 180 mana, slowly gain up to 4100 hp (limited-bandwidth conv. ratio of 22.78)

General thoughts:
Given that Shamen can readily convert their HP to mana and back, their HP & mana pools both contribute to their overall "mana pool depth"
Given the HP:Mana conversion ratios we can generalize and say that 1 Mana Point > 1 Hit Point (in fact, 1 MP ~= 1.6 HP or worse).
Given our best-case sustainable HP-to-Mana conversion rate of 1.6:1, each +1 STA buys the Shaman an effective 0.016 (STA>255) to 0.031 (STA<255) Mana per level.

For WIS < 200 and STA < 255, each +1 WIS buys the Shaman over 6x as much Mana (0.2 vs. 0.031) as would a +1 STA
For WIS > 200 and STA > 255, each +1 WIS buys the Shaman over 3x as much Mana (0.08 vs. 0.025) as would a +1 STA
Even for WIS > 200 and STA < 255, each +1 WIS buys the Shaman over 1.6x as much Mana (0.08 vs. 0.05) as would a +1 STA

For pure Mana consideration, a higher WIS *dramatically* beats out over a higher STA


That said, there are some meta-considerations as well to be taken into account:
When you reach 0 mana, you are OOM. When you reach 0 HP, you are dead. Therefore, HP are obviously important.
The higher your HP, the bigger your "Cannibalize buffer" is, i.e. how much overhead you have to play with before feeling vulnerable.
Since it's "easy" to reach your stat caps, any +WIS above cap is wasted and should instead be giving you +STA (and vice-versa).
Draining your Mana pool is better than draining your HP, in that you regain Mana faster while medding than HP.
Draining your HP pool is better than draining your Mana, in that others (esp. Druid, Cleric) can refill your HP for you much more easily than your Mana.
None of this takes any special HP or mana regen items into account.

TLDR: AC>HP>WIS>STA

Canni 3 is 100 HP chunks not 74.

[godbox]

I gotta throw my hat in the ring (not pro sham only lvl 34 atm) for the 5 agi rest wis as an ogre sham. For how I play solo and duo mostly straight up HP/AC/mana>Wis>Sta>str as far as I gear. I understand the argument for +sta at creation vs +wis but if you look at whats available (now not in velious might as well be waiting for centi longswords) raw hp/ac items are the way to go then raw mana then wis then sta.

There really is not alot of big chunk Wis items that are not held/ have like 4 AC for slots I am going to put in a 2hb or a good peircing wep / high ac shield or toss on JB (arms/wrist/hands) stuff for huge AC boosts.

I picked ogre cuz they have way more starting stats.
I did wis because for 59 levels and months and months of playtime I wont have topor and canni III so my mana pool, after a few sucky resists or Fizz (which as far as I know is also affected by Wis) on slow, can toatally go oom in a fight (I usually start pulling again when I am 50/50 hp mana) and then I end up taking way more hits which translates to way more downtime.

the I lived by 40hp argument doesnt really work as I see it since if (like me) you keep one tier down heal spell loaded up for emergency then that extra wis I put in at creation pays off with like 150-300hp when I needed it. or one final root

on the real tho if you are a sham wtf are u stickin around in a fight thats that close just run away and let pet finish? CR not worth it =P

[Faywind]

I gotta throw my hat in the ring (not pro sham only lvl 34 atm) for the 5 agi rest wis as an ogre sham. For how I play solo and duo mostly straight up HP/AC/mana>Wis>Sta>str as far as I gear. I understand the argument for +sta at creation vs +wis but if you look at whats available (now not in velious might as well be waiting for centi longswords) raw hp/ac items are the way to go then raw mana then wis then sta.

There really is not alot of big chunk Wis items that are not held/ have like 4 AC for slots I am going to put in a 2hb or a good peircing wep / high ac shield or toss on JB (arms/wrist/hands) stuff for huge AC boosts.

I picked ogre cuz they have way more starting stats.
I did wis because for 59 levels and months and months of playtime I wont have topor and canni III so my mana pool, after a few sucky resists or Fizz (which as far as I know is also affected by Wis) on slow, can toatally go oom in a fight (I usually start pulling again when I am 50/50 hp mana) and then I end up taking way more hits which translates to way more downtime.

the I lived by 40hp argument doesnt really work as I see it since if (like me) you keep one tier down heal spell loaded up for emergency then that extra wis I put in at creation pays off with like 150-300hp when I needed it. or one final root

on the real tho if you are a sham wtf are u stickin around in a fight thats that close just run away and let pet finish? CR not worth it =P

I understand your WIS argument but getting +WIS items is easier than +STA, that's pretty much why I'm going with all STA first. What I don't understand is the +5 AGI, sure I need to make sure I am at at least 75 AGI but at lvl 5 I get an AGI spell, not a big deal for me to cast it and later on I will be guaranteed to have at least +5 AGI from gear alone. So in the end adding that +5 AGI at creation is really not needed and this way I can add an extra +5 to my starting WIS.

I have already created my character and starting playing him so there's no turning back now! :)

[godbox]

might want to do some more research on what is available for +sta vs +wis with decent AC I really think that is not true if you look at what you can buy / get dropped +sta items slots generally

and really keep in mind that no matter what raw hp mana items are more available have higher ac and > sta wis items

really looking at that as you gear up is the smartest thing since you already rolled and I think that sta vs wis on roll is soooo trivial no matter what 40hp or whatever small amount of mana are super trivial but if you gear weird and have like 200 sta wis gear your gonna notice that vs (what I currently have) like 400+ hp and big AC items

ps like i said im not a pro sham or theory crafter but from the extensive wiki item research / the playing ive done I feel like its HP or the highway

[Grozmok]

Canni 3 is 100 HP chunks not 74.

Thanks. Fixed.