Verina Tomb

[Kope]

In light of recent events of disputes with the Verina camp, I thought it would be prudent to see if there was enough support to do a Verina rotation. Having enchanters sit in a room for 2-7 days for this mob seems a little cumbersome if another guild gets there with a force enough to kill it afterwards.

Anyone else interested in this? I think it would be quite nice for the enchanters of the server to have a small convenience.

[Lickum]

That would be nice, kind of like the friendly Ragefire thing going on.

[Fazlazen]

Did I miss verina ?

[achtung]

"A force to kill it" is like 3 people.

[Kope]

My thoughts on the rotation:

Each guild would get a spot in the rotation, each guild gets 1 spot and then when the rotation is finished we would have 1 spot open for any enchanter in a non primary guild to get a chance at Verina. The open spot enchanter would need to appeal to the rotation thread before that round begins to have a chance at that spot.

Once Verina spawns the guild that's up will have 90 mins (similar to Ragefire) to engage the mob. If the enchanter cannot acquire the force needed they forfeit their spot this round and will have to wait until the next round.

[Kope]

"A force to kill it" is like 3 people.

The problem with Verina isn't the force as it is with Ragefire, it's more the variance.

Ragefire window is (I believe) 72 hours after Nagafen (or the previous Ragefire) has been killed.

Verina is a 2-7 day variance. Having multiple people each spawn cycle sit in the room for that amount of time can be considered quite a waste of time and the purpose of this agreement would be to relieve this from the Enchanters and the server.

[Fazlazen]

I'm down. How about we get good old faz his epic ?

Ps long time no see goldteeth

[Joyelle]

90 minutes is a way too long to allow for 3 or 4 people to get to Neriak Third Gate.

[Kope]

90 minutes is a way too long to allow for 3 or 4 people to get to Neriak Third Gate.

It was an arbitrary number. How about 30 mins?

[Amontillado]

A guild rotation seems dumb to me.
What about those Enchanters that are unguilded? An enchanter without a guild can pretty easily get a group together for this kill.

Maybe what is needed is a line, similar to how Chancellor used to be for the Howling Stones key piece. First come order... though I can see modifying this a bit, so the enchanter doesn't need to be logged in 24 hours a day, up to 7 days.... Perhaps another toon can hold their spot.

[Zinyen]

I don't know how to solve this problem, but there definitely is a problem.

People didn't sit in a room in neriak for 5 days straight in 1999. This shit isn't classic

edit: just curious, whats happened to cause this thread? who got the last verina?

[Lickum]

A guild rotation seems dumb to me.
What about those Enchanters that are unguilded? An enchanter without a guild can pretty easily get a group together for this kill.

Maybe what is needed is a line, similar to how Chancellor used to be for the Howling Stones key piece. First come order... though I can see modifying this a bit, so the enchanter doesn't need to be logged in 24 hours a day, up to 7 days.... Perhaps another toon can hold their spot.

I don't see how it is dumb, other epic pieces require at least a small raid to get, why would they want to cockblock somebody on this piece when they would have a difficult enough time getting some if there other pieces?

Just don't see many pickup raids on this server.

[Sylexis]

A guild rotation seems dumb to me.
What about those Enchanters that are unguilded? An enchanter without a guild can pretty easily get a group together for this kill.

Maybe what is needed is a line, similar to how Chancellor used to be for the Howling Stones key piece. First come order... though I can see modifying this a bit, so the enchanter doesn't need to be logged in 24 hours a day, up to 7 days.... Perhaps another toon can hold their spot.

A waiting list sounds like a perfectly suitable idea.


I don't see how it is dumb, other epic pieces require at least a small raid to get, why would they want to cockblock somebody on this piece when they would have a difficult enough time getting some if there other pieces?

Just don't see many pickup raids on this server.

So just because I can't say, field a force for Severilous to get my green dragon scale for my epic just yet, you say I shouldn't have a right to do a 3man fight for my epic and get it out of the way? No, if an enchanter is able to do this fight and wants to camp it and can bring the force necessary in the alotted time then you can't just tell them no, I won't let you. Sure it's kind of annoying that lots of pieces might sit banked for a while but gosh if everyone actually did things in only the most efficient manner there would be no one left pre 60 without epics by now and the server would be a ghost town (oh look there goes a tumbleweed).

[Kope]

A guild rotation seems dumb to me.
What about those Enchanters that are unguilded? An enchanter without a guild can pretty easily get a group together for this kill.

In the suggested rotation there is an idea in place to allow unguilded (the wording was "...in a non primary guild...") enchanters a chance at the mob. I am definitely not opposed to a line like chancelor.

[Llabak]

I don't know how to solve this problem, but there definitely is a problem.

People didn't sit in a room in neriak for 5 days straight in 1999. This shit isn't classic

edit: just curious, whats happened to cause this thread? who got the last verina?

From the perspective of the BDA necro at the last spawn. Taken's perspective may well be different:

Last Verina was a bitch of a spawn, went damn near to the end of the window. She popped, and people came running. THere were about 15 or so people in the zone or so, perhaps 4 or 5 taken, 4 BDA, and a smattering of others. I, 56 necro, engaged Verina, being assured that with a 59 cleric, 60 druid and the epic-waiting enchanter we'd have no problem dropping her. 50-something warrior was zoning in as I engaged.

My pet got FTE and then Taken jumped in on the mob. Lostprophets (epic warrior) outdamaged my pet (go fig) and their group got the kill. Their chanter looted the epic piece and they all left.

Their argument was that I we couldn't claim the camp with a necro/cleric/druid/chanter, since that didn't represent "kill force," I think confusing the camping rules (need killing force) with the FTE rules (first to engage on a popped mob wins). BDA petitioned, GM agreed that we had FTE and deserved the loot, and our chanter received the piece.

I'm pleased to note that through it all, Taken and BDA were relatively civil to each other (in non /gu at least giggle), and there wasn't any ugly name calling. I suspect, however, that there are some people on both sides who aren't happy with the way things went, and aren't happy with specific members of the other guild, which is really a shame.

In summation, this whole thing is a giant clusterfuck. It seems like there are permanent trackmules just sitting there in the room staring at the spawn point, and while there's no clickfest like Ragefire, it's still hardly a healthy situation. It would be great if the leadership of the big guilds would get together and hash out a rotation just like Ragefire. I, however, am just a worker bee logging in to kill pixels, and so my opinion isn't worth a whole heck of a lot.

-Berty, BDA Necro

[Kope]

Thanks for that explination Berty.

It would be nice if some of the guild leaders could post some of their thoughts on this. It would save a lot of frustration for not only the enchanters but the guilds involved in this camp.

[achtung]

You're proposing a guild rotation on a mob that can be trioed. Bit absurd. FTE seems to make perfect sense here.

[Broot]

You're proposing a guild rotation on a mob that can be trioed. Bit absurd. FTE seems to make perfect sense here.

It's less about force assembly and more about avoiding the situation of 15 people poopsocking in a room. In the end it saves a lot of time and frustration, especially for people who have obligations that make variance windows tougher.

In the end it works better for everyone. Less hassle and headache. More time to plan for your window etc...

[Lickum]

A waiting list sounds like a perfectly suitable idea.




So just because I can't say, field a force for Severilous to get my green dragon scale for my epic just yet, you say I shouldn't have a right to do a 3man fight for my epic and get it out of the way? No, if an enchanter is able to do this fight and wants to camp it and can bring the force necessary in the alotted time then you can't just tell them no, I won't let you. Sure it's kind of annoying that lots of pieces might sit banked for a while but gosh if everyone actually did things in only the most efficient manner there would be no one left pre 60 without epics by now and the server would be a ghost town (oh look there goes a tumbleweed).

I guess we just wont see eye to eye on this. I personally wouldn't contest this camp knowing that for most the enchanters there its their final piece. If I worked on the rest of the quest, by the time I got toVerina there probably wouldn't be a line. I would never tell anybody they couldn't do something, like I'm some higher power, but I can't say I would sympathize with them.

[Kope]

You're proposing a guild rotation on a mob that can be trioed. Bit absurd. FTE seems to make perfect sense here.

My argument isn't about the force needed in the fight, it's the 2-7 day variance with a high chance of losing the mob if you don't have a group of friends bound/camped out in that room. The point of this agreement is to save many hours of camping a mob and becoming increasingly frustrated if you lose one or more mob that you have been camping for multiple days and doing nothing else.

This is not classic at all. The variance is, but the original intention of the variance was so people would not sit and camp the spawnpoint of the mob for GMS to be forced to look up records for the FTE person. Things are incredibly cutthroat on this server, which in and of itself isn't a negative thing, but in this instance it seems overbearing and overburdoning especially for the enchanters not in the top guilds.

Ask yourself this question - Are you happy to be mandated to sit and camp a mob for 2-7 days and do nothing else to have a chance at this mob?

If you are fine doing that, do you feel the need for all other enchanters to do this exact same thing?

[Sylexis]

I guess we just wont see eye to eye on this. I personally wouldn't contest this camp knowing that for most the enchanters there its their final piece. If I worked on the rest of the quest, by the time I got toVerina there probably wouldn't be a line. I would never tell anybody they couldn't do something, like I'm some higher power, but I can't say I would sympathize with them.

It's not that I don't think deferring to players who need it as the last piece isn't the right thing to do, but it's not enforceable.

[houwser]

This is Freeid. I agree that the camp is very frustrating. Just had to chip in my rant.

I have been personally sitting on the camp for the past 3 days since window opened. I do go to work and sleep, but I leave my character logged in. When I get home from work until I go to sleep, I am carrying my laptop around the house watching and waiting for her to spawn (about 5-6 hours) a night, and at night I check periodically. This is the last part of epic quest darnit! I'm invested in it.

What bums me out is that it is hard to convince others to come camp it with me to secure a spot where no one could FTE over me (as stated in the rules). So far, I have a few friends bound there to gate, but I hate the pressure of losing the camp because some other guild sees it and happens to be in EC or whatever. I don't expect other players to help me by sitting on it for up to 5 days straight. As of right now, I am going by the rules and understand that a force can just swoop in a knock me out if they wanted to.

So, it would be frustrating to be investing my past 3 week nights just to get swooped out because I cannot mobilize a FTE team in a quick enough time.

In the last two times I have seen her, she has died within 15 minutes of spawning, and there were 2-3 enchanters in contention. Its going to suck if that happens to me, as it did the OP (Kopi). I watched him camp it from Friday to Sunday morning reset, and got beat by a matter of 2 minutes. Not sure if this is the same circumstance as a server reset is a break in gameplay (?) The difference comes down to about 2-3 minutes of who can mobilize quicker.

Right now, I know like half of Divinity is logged/bound there, so I feel threatened that I need to constantly be on top of things. I don't have an issue with that circumstance, and it is a result of the high stakes of the camp and the way FTE rules are setup. I believe that with a force like that, they could probably engage her within 5 minutes of her spawning if word gets out. That sucks for me because it could/may take my guild 8 minutes, yet I have been sitting there for 3-5nights just to get beat out by 3 minutes. In the end, if that does happen, I cannot hate the players, but the way the system is set up.

Something should be done?

[Kassel]

It is really hard to have a rotation when any 3or4 goobers can walk in and destroy it.

It seems odd that there is such a big variance on this mob, is it classic?

[Splorf22]

From the perspective of the BDA necro at the last spawn. Taken's perspective may well be different:

Last Verina was a bitch of a spawn, went damn near to the end of the window. She popped, and people came running. THere were about 15 or so people in the zone or so, perhaps 4 or 5 taken, 4 BDA, and a smattering of others. I, 56 necro, engaged Verina, being assured that with a 59 cleric, 60 druid and the epic-waiting enchanter we'd have no problem dropping her. 50-something warrior was zoning in as I engaged.

My pet got FTE and then Taken jumped in on the mob. Lostprophets (epic warrior) outdamaged my pet (go fig) and their group got the kill. Their chanter looted the epic piece and they all left.

Their argument was that I we couldn't claim the camp with a necro/cleric/druid/chanter, since that didn't represent "kill force," I think confusing the camping rules (need killing force) with the FTE rules (first to engage on a popped mob wins). BDA petitioned, GM agreed that we had FTE and deserved the loot, and our chanter received the piece.

I'm pleased to note that through it all, Taken and BDA were relatively civil to each other (in non /gu at least giggle), and there wasn't any ugly name calling. I suspect, however, that there are some people on both sides who aren't happy with the way things went, and aren't happy with specific members of the other guild, which is really a shame.

In summation, this whole thing is a giant clusterfuck. It seems like there are permanent trackmules just sitting there in the room staring at the spawn point, and while there's no clickfest like Ragefire, it's still hardly a healthy situation. It would be great if the leadership of the big guilds would get together and hash out a rotation just like Ragefire. I, however, am just a worker bee logging in to kill pixels, and so my opinion isn't worth a whole heck of a lot.

-Berty, BDA Necro

I personally got Verina with 60 enc/sk/sham + 54 sk and it was pretty close (I remember Nlaar and I did practically all of our epic quests together somehow. And for all the forum rage against Coldblooded, she spent a LOT of time helping the guild with these things.). So IMO your kill force is right on the edge, and Taken is not really right, but they are not really wrong either. Of course if Taken didn't engage then your warrior would have zoned in and that would probably push you over the edge.

Really this kind of thing makes me sad. I feel like most of the second tier guilds are just as viciously cutthroat as TMO, they just don't play as much.

[tekniq]

No rotation imo...this is the chance where the tier 2 guilds get to see what's it's like to race for a mob + where drama ensues!

[Kope]

No rotation imo...this is the chance where the tier 2 guilds get to see what's it's like to race for a mob + where drama ensues!

Can you please elaborate on how this is a positive motive for not implementing a rotation or list.

[Kope]

It is really hard to have a rotation when any 3or4 goobers can walk in and destroy it.

This is why we need the server on board to implement something like this, something like the chancelor list is actually sounding quite good, so even after most enchanters have their epics, the people who need it can still work towards getting it.

It seems odd that there is such a big variance on this mob, is it classic?

This was explained in one of my previous posts. It was originally intended (on live) for this variance to discourage players from sitting on the spawnpoint where every time the mob spawned the Gms would have to look into the logs of who engaged the mob first. It worked quite well on live, but here things are too cutthroat for this to work. To have a chance at the mob here you must sit on the spawn point for the duration of the variance with guild members camped and/or bound in the room to engage ASAP.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

I think the biggest thing to remember about this camp, as hellish as it is, is that there are a finite number of enchanters on this server, and that finite number does not grow very quickly. On average, 6-8 enchanters per month can get this fight done. Three months from now, this camp will still be annoying for the huge variance, but not likely annoying due to insane competition. Six months from now, it won't be a big deal at all.

The competition and variance work together as a rationing mechanism. For some people, the camp just isn't worth it right now, and that's ok. The current situation is not the way the camp will always be.

[Zinyen]

I think the biggest thing to remember about this camp, as hellish as it is, is that there are a finite number of enchanters on this server, and that finite number does not grow very quickly. On average, 6-8 enchanters per month can get this fight done. Three months from now, this camp will still be annoying for the huge variance, but not likely annoying due to insane competition. Six months from now, it won't be a big deal at all.

The competition and variance work together as a rationing mechanism. For some people, the camp just isn't worth it right now, and that's ok. The current situation is not the way the camp will always be.

This is how I felt when epics first went in, but every time I go to the room I see more enchanters I've never seen anywhere else in the world before, sitting there.

[Striiker]

From the perspective of the BDA necro at the last spawn. Taken's perspective may well be different:

Last Verina was a bitch of a spawn, went damn near to the end of the window. She popped, and people came running. THere were about 15 or so people in the zone or so, perhaps 4 or 5 taken, 4 BDA, and a smattering of others. I, 56 necro, engaged Verina, being assured that with a 59 cleric, 60 druid and the epic-waiting enchanter we'd have no problem dropping her. 50-something warrior was zoning in as I engaged.

My pet got FTE and then Taken jumped in on the mob. Lostprophets (epic warrior) outdamaged my pet (go fig) and their group got the kill. Their chanter looted the epic piece and they all left.

Their argument was that I we couldn't claim the camp with a necro/cleric/druid/chanter, since that didn't represent "kill force," I think confusing the camping rules (need killing force) with the FTE rules (first to engage on a popped mob wins). BDA petitioned, GM agreed that we had FTE and deserved the loot, and our chanter received the piece.

I'm pleased to note that through it all, Taken and BDA were relatively civil to each other (in non /gu at least giggle), and there wasn't any ugly name calling. I suspect, however, that there are some people on both sides who aren't happy with the way things went, and aren't happy with specific members of the other guild, which is really a shame.

In summation, this whole thing is a giant clusterfuck. It seems like there are permanent trackmules just sitting there in the room staring at the spawn point, and while there's no clickfest like Ragefire, it's still hardly a healthy situation. It would be great if the leadership of the big guilds would get together and hash out a rotation just like Ragefire. I, however, am just a worker bee logging in to kill pixels, and so my opinion isn't worth a whole heck of a lot.

-Berty, BDA Necro

I'll add my commentary to this thread as I have been personally involved with some of the commentary here and have felt the sting of losing the spawn to another force etc.

So, I was the <Taken> enchanter referenced by Berty. It was indeed a crappy camp. This was my third shot at Verina. My First camp was lost to BDA as they got a force capable of killing her first and we watched them kill her. My warrior arrived about 30 seconds after they engaged. I congratulated the enchanter and I was happy for him (and yeah, a little jealous) :-) My second camp got interrupted as my daughter was visiting and I left the camp to spend time with her and another <Taken> enchanter took over. My third attempt was the one referenced by Berty above. A Lvl 56 Necro pet along with the force mentioned above was not capable of killing a lvl 60 Cleric mob nor would it have lasted long enough if your warrior made it in a couple of minutes later (I don't know where your warrior was zoning into but I never saw him in zone as the attack was under way). Our warrior (lvl 60 with epic) saw what you had and attacked 9 seconds after your pet did as his interpretation of the posted rules was that you did not have a force capable of killing the camped mob. (I'm guessing you saw that our warrior was in zone and decided to take a gamble by attacking her) On the server though, FTE trumps other rules and we should have waited for you to wipe. There was never a dispute that you were FTE, just that you were not first to the camp with a kill force capable. It was akin to kiting a dragon. Yes, you are engaged but you can't kill it. I'll skip any other thoughts or notions on this part as it will drag on and on.
Our guild leader communicated with the BDA guild leader to see about a compromise and in the end we agreed to hand over the drop and Amelinda facilitated it (without investigating). I agree that both sides handled the dispute well.
I decided to camp her again (4th time) and started tracking her about a day after her window opened up and Kopi and I had a pleasant conversation (as did Freeid and I). The server was repopped and Kopi had most of his force ready to go but no warrior. <Taken> got our force there and got the kill (finally).
I felt relief at finally getting this behind me but I also felt badly for those yet to get their kill. I agree that this camp should get on a rotation similar to Ragefire (ugh, and I've been doing that camp a lot too). An agreement should be reached with the guilds to rotate this mob. To those who feel that unguided enchanters should be included, I disagree. Verina Tomb and a few other of the mobs can be killed with a strong group but there are other pieces which really need a larger force which pretty much needs a guild. (The Prince in Chardok and the Wraith in Fear really do need a raid force to get to in my opinion and I am sure some will disagree.) I do urge the guilds to work up a rotation. Perhaps a meeting can be held with representatives of each of the capable guilds to agree to a rotation etc. Just doing this through the message boards is not going to succeed as there will be people throwing in comments and criticisms and the conversation will go nowhere.

[Handull]

A rotation sounds like a good idea, as long as the enc's in the rotation have done the rest of the quest that can be done to that point and gotten all the other items needed.

On a side note, I don't understand why people think "o look, they couldn't possibly kill this mob with that force, so instead of watching them wipe and grabbed the mob after, I'll just steal agro off them and kill it". Let them wipe or let them impress you. If they start to kite the mob, or do something else cheesy to waste time, then pull it off them, but it seems really lame to me to assume something off the bat and steal their mob.

I've even had a guide tell me i couldn't hold a certain camp solo. Then i explained to him how i planned to kill the named if/when he spawned. The guide then realized i could do it and was impressed. Next pop I got the named and killed it exactly as i planned. I am glad the guide confronted me though, cause maybe I really had no plan except to call in others to help me kill the named. I just happened to be fairly holding the camp in that case. You never know what someone has up their sleeve these days.