EverQuest "Next"

[cameroncoolcarter]

Anyone heard anything more recent about this?

[BruizeLee]

no but i cant wait

[Galaa]

not much news from Sony about this...

cant wait.

[Grommel]

Here is something recent I found.

http://www.mmofringe.com/forum/2-Section-8/17114-the-latest-on-SOE-and-Everquest-Next

[nymphloa]

Here is something recent I found.

http://www.mmofringe.com/forum/2-Section-8/17114-the-latest-on-SOE-and-Everquest-Next

Thanks for that Grommel, typical SoE. I for one gave up long ago on them ever making another game worth my time and money.

I think thats why were all here....lol :rolleyes:

Peace,

[Alukit Vassago]

Thanks for that Grommel, typical SoE. I for one gave up long ago on them ever making another game worth my time and money.

I think thats why were all here....lol :rolleyes:

Peace,

i think your right on that money there, seem alot have been saying they can't seem to pick which business style to go with old EQ or Facebook style :p god i do hope that is a lie or i think i may just act like sony doesn't exisit

[gloine36]

I'm not sure a subscription based model is going to work at $15 a month. It will have to be lower and definitely include things where players can buy some things.
I think what the MMOs need is a game where it's based on the progression and not so much the end game. Maybe it will be a grind, but the content has to hold up so that players form communities that aren't raid or end game focused.
Right now SOEs version of F2P is too restrictive. Plus the games are end game focused now so I don't really care about them.

[bridgetroll]

I'd like to see more sandbox mmo's developed. Minecraft + Everquest would be an interesting game. I'd play the shit out of it.

[SamwiseRed]

I'd like to see more sandbox mmo's developed. Minecraft + Everquest would be an interesting game. I'd play the shit out of it.

Eve Online... sandbox. if interested PM me your email. for 3 buddy invites left this month.

[Brimacombe]

I have heard the farmville rumors elsewhere. This breaks my heart. After anticipating information about it since Eq's 10th anniversary gala, and this could not be a more cruel joke. I guess Eq really was just a one time - one place kind of phenomenon.

-Brimacombe

[Wudan]

hmmmmm interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cp3j-7yz3I

[Destan]

The problem is Sony has no idea how to make a top-tier MMO. Even with EverQuest, they snatched it up when it was raw and exciting and proceeded to pummel it to death ever since.

As much as I'd love to see EQ Next return this genre to some of it's roots and make MMOs exciting again, I know the company creating it just doesn't have the capability to produce a top-tier MMO. I'm expecting to see a hybrid mash-up of modern MMO conventions with maybe a cash shop and EverQuest themed races and places.

Don't get me wrong though, I'll keep an eye on this title with firm devotion until it's close to launch. Maybe it's a fool's hope, but I DO want to proven wrong on this. But there's too many old sayings (where there's smoke there's fire / leapord can't change it's spots / walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc) that suggest this won't be a deviation from their normal business model.

[envino]

I fear that there will never again be an MMO that I want to play. They will all have fast travel, no death penalty, and be a treadmill gear grind. That's what the masses like. It kind of sucks to not be one of the masses.

[aegeryen]

I fear that there will never again be an MMO that I want to play. They will all have fast travel, no death penalty, and be a treadmill gear grind. That's what the masses like. It kind of sucks to not be one of the masses.

this.

[mwatt]

The problem is Sony has no idea how to make a top-tier MMO. Even with EverQuest, they snatched it up when it was raw and exciting and proceeded to pummel it to death ever since.

As much as I'd love to see EQ Next return this genre to some of it's roots and make MMOs exciting again, I know the company creating it just doesn't have the capability to produce a top-tier MMO. I'm expecting to see a hybrid mash-up of modern MMO conventions with maybe a cash shop and EverQuest themed races and places.

Don't get me wrong though, I'll keep an eye on this title with firm devotion until it's close to launch. Maybe it's a fool's hope, but I DO want to proven wrong on this. But there's too many old sayings (where there's smoke there's fire / leapord can't change it's spots / walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc) that suggest this won't be a deviation from their normal business model.

LOL I could have written these exact words myself. I'll go futher even. Smed and company to this day do not understand what EQ is all about. They only see it in terms of financial success. They have no gaming soul.

[Sithel1988]

i want Planetside Classic

[dcapotos]

i want Planetside Classic

I'm on the fence; I LOVE sniping BFRs because I know how much it pisses off the people that use them.

[Danyelle]

The problem is Sony has no idea how to make a top-tier MMO. Even with EverQuest, they snatched it up when it was raw and exciting and proceeded to pummel it to death ever since.

As much as I'd love to see EQ Next return this genre to some of it's roots and make MMOs exciting again, I know the company creating it just doesn't have the capability to produce a top-tier MMO. I'm expecting to see a hybrid mash-up of modern MMO conventions with maybe a cash shop and EverQuest themed races and places.

Don't get me wrong though, I'll keep an eye on this title with firm devotion until it's close to launch. Maybe it's a fool's hope, but I DO want to proven wrong on this. But there's too many old sayings (where there's smoke there's fire / leapord can't change it's spots / walks like a duck, talks like a duck, etc) that suggest this won't be a deviation from their normal business model.


LOL I could have written these exact words myself. I'll go futher even. Smed and company to this day do not understand what EQ is all about. They only see it in terms of financial success. They have no gaming soul.

You guys realize Sony has been in control of Everquest since before it's release, since it's very inception. As has Smedly who was the original person to gain the funding for Everquest from Sony. That Verant was just a subsidiary division of 989 Studios, which itself was a division of Sony, after 989 decided to focus on the Playstation and that they were reformed into the SoE you see today. You know all that right.....right?

Of course you don't, you see, hear, and believe what you want to believe.

QUICKLY MEN! I HEARD THEY'RE PUTTING CATS ON THE MOON. GATHER YOUR PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES WE MUST BURN THE HEATHENS!

[Danyelle]

Maybe some day I'll have the cash to produce my post-apocalyptic MMO!

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Project_V13

[fischsemmel]

I think what the MMOs need is a game where it's based on the progression and not so much the end game.

Yeah. EQ seems to be the only MMO I've ever played (and I've played a bunch of them in the last 13 years) where the journey to max level was a bigger deal than being max level.

A few different MMOs exist/have existed where players could be real contributors to raids/pvp/whatever without actually being max level themselves... but even those aren't too common I guess.

[Danyelle]

Naw, mine would involve an algorithmically generated scalable post-apocalyptic world in which you're introduced to the game in a tutorial that kind of mimics the opening scenes of Shaun of the Dead.

Sounds awesome. I move to provide you with funding and a minimum of 3, maximum of 7, women to assist in your game's development. See you in 2001 sir.

[Malrubius]

You guys realize Sony has been in control of Everquest since before it's release, since it's very inception. As has Smedly who was the original person to gain the funding for Everquest from Sony. That Verant was just a subsidiary division of 989 Studios, which itself was a division of Sony, after 989 decided to focus on the Playstation and that they were reformed into the SoE you see today. You know all that right.....right?

Of course you don't, you see, hear, and believe what you want to believe.

QUICKLY MEN! I HEARD THEY'RE PUTTING CATS ON THE MOON. GATHER YOUR PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES WE MUST BURN THE HEATHENS!

Nobody said that they couldn't make a top-tier MMO in the past. Obviously they could...they made one.

This thread is about future games. And in all likelihood, they are incapable. Witness EQ1 as it exists today, EQ2, and what became of Vanguard.

imo, it's pretty clear that they have been moving in the wrong direction for a long time.

[mwatt]

You guys realize Sony has been in control of Everquest since before it's release, since it's very inception. As has Smedly who was the original person to gain the funding for Everquest from Sony. That Verant was just a subsidiary division of 989 Studios, which itself was a division of Sony, after 989 decided to focus on the Playstation and that they were reformed into the SoE you see today. You know all that right.....right?

Of course you don't, you see, hear, and believe what you want to believe.

QUICKLY MEN! I HEARD THEY'RE PUTTING CATS ON THE MOON. GATHER YOUR PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES WE MUST BURN THE HEATHENS!

Having financial control of something does not equate to understanding it. Smed wants to play in this world, he just doesn't "get" what EQ is really all about. EQ was the baby of Brad and a handful of other major contributors. One need only look at how EQ evolved after Brad and company left to see this. If you want more proof, look at how VG was first "saved" and then systematically raped.

Your post implies that I am an unthinking, emotive ostrich. The fact of the matter is that I have thought and written about this very subject several times over the years, and had exchanges with many other thoughtful players on related topics. Your assertions do not jibe with their well-considered opinions. Furthermore, I have personally written Smed twice to discuss removal or changing of the death penalty in VG. Trust me. He doesn't get it.

[envino]

The question as to whether or not these guys know how to create an MMO is largely moot - in my opinion, they did, and they still do. The real question is CAN they? I submit that they cannot.
To create a modern MMO requires a piles of money, and a reasonable assurance to the investors that those millions of dollars will be returned, plus millions more.
There is a perfectly good reason that the newer MMO's all feel the same, because essentially, they are. The goal of a modern-day MMO is to make money, period. In order to make money on the scale that is required, your game has to appeal to a very broad base of gamer, you need subscriptions in the millions, not thousands, or even hundreds of thousands - millions. You absolutely have to build your game to the lowest common denominator - there can be no waiting around, no frustration, no way to fail. The average person (and it has always been this way, more on that in a moment) approaches an MMO like a sitcom episode - they want to be entertained for a short time and then on to something else. WoW does an outstanding job of catering to the millions. Its not the same millions, you play for awhile, you realize after a year or so that there is nothing else, and you quit. Meanwhile, there's a whole new generation of 12 years olds to take your place, and they just rotate through. Almost all gamers have played WoW for awhile.
So here I am. I'm in my 40's, I started out playing good old DnD in my early teens, played MuDs until my 20's until EQ came out, basked in that until it became the same old treadmill, and have been floundering around hoping for the real thing ever since.
But you and I, we're dinosaurs, very nearing extinction. There aren't that many of us around anymore, certainly not enough of us to supply millions of dollars to support the game we want. I want death penalties, I want slow travel, I want difficult leveling, I want weight and food to matter, I want a certain amount of realism that is just too frustrating for the masses.
I have been hoping for a small company to pop up and make the game that i want to play, but i just don't see it happening - which is why i was so excited to find P99. Here it is, in all its glory, my game. I just hope we can keep it going!
I still hold out hope for the future -

Oh, and gamers have always been this way, I knew tons of people back in the day that thought EQ was waaaay too hard and time consuming to play. The bar was just lower in those days. A few hundred thousands subscribers was plenty to make a little money. WoW pretty much changed the whole landscape.

[Silentone]

The question as to whether or not these guys know how to create an MMO is largely moot - in my opinion, they did, and they still do. The real question is CAN they? I submit that they cannot.
To create a modern MMO requires a piles of money, and a reasonable assurance to the investors that those millions of dollars will be returned, plus millions more.
There is a perfectly good reason that the newer MMO's all feel the same, because essentially, they are. The goal of a modern-day MMO is to make money, period. In order to make money on the scale that is required, your game has to appeal to a very broad base of gamer, you need subscriptions in the millions, not thousands, or even hundreds of thousands - millions. You absolutely have to build your game to the lowest common denominator - there can be no waiting around, no frustration, no way to fail. The average person (and it has always been this way, more on that in a moment) approaches an MMO like a sitcom episode - they want to be entertained for a short time and then on to something else. WoW does an outstanding job of catering to the millions. Its not the same millions, you play for awhile, you realize after a year or so that there is nothing else, and you quit. Meanwhile, there's a whole new generation of 12 years olds to take your place, and they just rotate through. Almost all gamers have played WoW for awhile.
So here I am. I'm in my 40's, I started out playing good old DnD in my early teens, played MuDs until my 20's until EQ came out, basked in that until it became the same old treadmill, and have been floundering around hoping for the real thing ever since.
But you and I, we're dinosaurs, very nearing extinction. There aren't that many of us around anymore, certainly not enough of us to supply millions of dollars to support the game we want. I want death penalties, I want slow travel, I want difficult leveling, I want weight and food to matter, I want a certain amount of realism that is just too frustrating for the masses.
I have been hoping for a small company to pop up and make the game that i want to play, but i just don't see it happening - which is why i was so excited to find P99. Here it is, in all its glory, my game. I just hope we can keep it going!
I still hold out hope for the future -

Oh, and gamers have always been this way, I knew tons of people back in the day that thought EQ was waaaay too hard and time consuming to play. The bar was just lower in those days. A few hundred thousands subscribers was plenty to make a little money. WoW pretty much changed the whole landscape.

^^ all that +1

[mwatt]

The question as to whether or not these guys know how to create an MMO is largely moot - in my opinion, they did, and they still do. The real question is CAN they? I submit that they cannot.
To create a modern MMO requires a piles of money, and a reasonable assurance to the investors that those millions of dollars will be returned, plus millions more.
There is a perfectly good reason that the newer MMO's all feel the same, because essentially, they are. The goal of a modern-day MMO is to make money, period. In order to make money on the scale that is required, your game has to appeal to a very broad base of gamer, you need subscriptions in the millions, not thousands, or even hundreds of thousands - millions. You absolutely have to build your game to the lowest common denominator - there can be no waiting around, no frustration, no way to fail. The average person (and it has always been this way, more on that in a moment) approaches an MMO like a sitcom episode - they want to be entertained for a short time and then on to something else. WoW does an outstanding job of catering to the millions. Its not the same millions, you play for awhile, you realize after a year or so that there is nothing else, and you quit. Meanwhile, there's a whole new generation of 12 years olds to take your place, and they just rotate through. Almost all gamers have played WoW for awhile.
So here I am. I'm in my 40's, I started out playing good old DnD in my early teens, played MuDs until my 20's until EQ came out, basked in that until it became the same old treadmill, and have been floundering around hoping for the real thing ever since.
But you and I, we're dinosaurs, very nearing extinction. There aren't that many of us around anymore, certainly not enough of us to supply millions of dollars to support the game we want. I want death penalties, I want slow travel, I want difficult leveling, I want weight and food to matter, I want a certain amount of realism that is just too frustrating for the masses.
I have been hoping for a small company to pop up and make the game that i want to play, but i just don't see it happening - which is why i was so excited to find P99. Here it is, in all its glory, my game. I just hope we can keep it going!
I still hold out hope for the future -

Oh, and gamers have always been this way, I knew tons of people back in the day that thought EQ was waaaay too hard and time consuming to play. The bar was just lower in those days. A few hundred thousands subscribers was plenty to make a little money. WoW pretty much changed the whole landscape.

I agree with some of what you say but not that SOE knows how to create an MMO with depth and long lasting playability. You claim they are unable to because it is not economically feasible. There might be some truth in that. However, the HAD on their hands a deep MMO that was a screaming financial success. They shat in that bed when it would have been possible to keep it rolling on the same kind of path that it already followed. Nope, they just had to muck with it, probably going for the bigger dollar. VG is similar. It was already 4/5 done, they just had to complete it. But they elected to morph it to be wowesque, chasing the wow dollar. Didn't work out too well.

[envino]

Well, that's exactly my point. At some moment a bunch of suits walked into the room and said "we need more subscribers, your game is too hard, change it - make it more like wow or you're fired".

[gloine36]

MMO's are economically feasible. The problem is corporations don't view games like players do. The suits want to invest money into something that returns that money for many, many years as a veritible money stream. An awesome MMO will possibly last for 10 years. We don't know yet because while EQ is now 13 years old how much real profit is it producing? WoW is almost 8 and I think we can assume it will still product profit for several more years.
The suits see WoW as what they want in an MMO. What they don't get is that it came from a company that built games for several years and had an existing fanbase that was international in scope. Wow may be a game that never gets replicated. That doesn't mean games can't be made that are just as good or better and make good money. There are games out there that are smaller and making money for their owners. The problem is that the money men want WoW every time.
The business world is insane right now. It used to be if you invested x dollars and made 2x that back in a few years you did good. Now they want multiple X dollars back or the investment is a failure? I think the best games are going to come from smaller teams of builders who create their worlds before they get the big money. Once they have a good product ready for the final polishing the money men can step in and spend the big $$ needed to market it, put together the CS teams, and do the expensive stuff.
Good grief, the technology today to build a good game is there and it's not crazy expensive. You don't need cutting edge graphics. You need content and design. Seriously, look at the WoW graphics. Then look at the EQ2 graphics back in 04. They were so awesome few people had the power to run the PC to play them at their best setting. That's what killed EQ2. The game was good. It was just that too many people didn't have enough PC to play the game at any acceptable mode while they could play WoW at good or high settings.
Let's be honest. We could take EQ's graphics and classes, mix it with any game world we want, and somebody could build a new world for a fraction of what it would cost to build a EQ Next or some really heavy duty WoW killer. If the content is good and the game playable and fun, it'll make money.

[mwatt]

Well, that's exactly my point. At some moment a bunch of suits walked into the room and said "we need more subscribers, your game is too hard, change it - make it more like wow or you're fired".

I typed a long post and blew it away with a mis-stroke at the kb. What follows will have to suffice, I am supposed to be working. Smed was the initial suit in the life of the game and still is. He never contributed to the creation directly and in the beginning that was all Brad and his team. After they left, Smed by default inherited the ability to control direction because he could pick and choose who got to drive.

He did chase WoW dollars, but not in a way that leveraged the strengths of his own game while doing away with some of the barriors to play that WoW succeeded in bringing down. He threw the baby out with the bath water. Why? Because he didn't and still DOESN'T understand what he had. EQ Next will be utter crap.

[cameroncoolcarter]

Sad, sad, sad....

[strosz]

Damn. There goes all hope.

[wasp23]

looks like im playing p99 for the rest of my life.

[Atmas]

MMO's are economically feasible. The problem is corporations don't view games like players do. The suits want to invest money into something that returns that money for many, many years as a veritible money stream. An awesome MMO will possibly last for 10 years. We don't know yet because while EQ is now 13 years old how much real profit is it producing? WoW is almost 8 and I think we can assume it will still product profit for several more years.
The suits see WoW as what they want in an MMO. What they don't get is that it came from a company that built games for several years and had an existing fanbase that was international in scope. Wow may be a game that never gets replicated. That doesn't mean games can't be made that are just as good or better and make good money. There are games out there that are smaller and making money for their owners. The problem is that the money men want WoW every time.
The business world is insane right now. It used to be if you invested x dollars and made 2x that back in a few years you did good. Now they want multiple X dollars back or the investment is a failure? I think the best games are going to come from smaller teams of builders who create their worlds before they get the big money. Once they have a good product ready for the final polishing the money men can step in and spend the big $$ needed to market it, put together the CS teams, and do the expensive stuff.
Good grief, the technology today to build a good game is there and it's not crazy expensive. You don't need cutting edge graphics. You need content and design. Seriously, look at the WoW graphics. Then look at the EQ2 graphics back in 04. They were so awesome few people had the power to run the PC to play them at their best setting. That's what killed EQ2. The game was good. It was just that too many people didn't have enough PC to play the game at any acceptable mode while they could play WoW at good or high settings.
Let's be honest. We could take EQ's graphics and classes, mix it with any game world we want, and somebody could build a new world for a fraction of what it would cost to build a EQ Next or some really heavy duty WoW killer. If the content is good and the game playable and fun, it'll make money.

Unfortunately the initial cost of games, particularly MMOs has skyrocketed because of the player expectation level. While I understand what you are saying about the content of the game being more important than the flashiness no company is willing to risk investing money into a game which may be considered sub-par. At launch MMOs now normally have or are expected to include:

Voice Acting
Auction Houses
Hundreds of quests from the start
Sprawling realistic landscapes
Sizeable end game content
Full support for a large number of environments
Fully implemented tradeskills
A world populated by NPCs that all have some level of player interaction


And much much more. Even though WoW had cartoonish characters they still had to employ about 2 to 3 times as many artists as they had programmers. The reason you don't have any more EQs is no one wants to invest millions of dollars into a game with a niche market.

I love EQ but it also got away with a lot of crap that people wouldn't really deal with now when a game launches. Lack of support for several sound cards, broken quests, frequent patching with server downtime, a ton of NPCs that don't interactwith the players. EQ players kind of accepted that a lot of stuff hadn't been done before so leeway was given.

I don't really like the ideals of super easy play presented in WoW but I do understand that it is a very well made and very polished game. Many other MMOs have run into a problem where they run out of money and time before getting to the level of content expected. Even when not trying to compete directly with WoW or other established MMOs you are competeing with the perceptions of what a game should include based on games that have been undergoing development for nearly a decade.

[Malloci]

I think its time for another game like EQ1, i dont think it would be nearly as expensive to make as a new AAA mmo and i think it would get a descent amount of players. Old eq vets and wow vets who have been raised on the new care bear mmos and want something more now.

If i were to make a new mmo right now it would be exactly like eq1 with modern graphics and some tweaks to the combat mechanics. but leave in all Risk vs rewards features like the death penalties the dificulty in leveling and the need for a community to get anything done.

[Grozmok]

Meh.

If it's good, I'll play it (just like every other MMO or PC game that's been released since I quit EQ back in 2004) if it sucks I'll just log back into p99.

/thread

[Sithel1988]

OMFG GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE WILL BE COOL FACIAL EXPRESSIONS!!!!! I HAVE TO GET EVERQUEST NEXT. fucking gay

[gloine36]

The biggest hurdle to all of this is money. Look at it this way. Regardless of what game you make, you have to pay the bills. If you pay everyone an average of $40K a year you will be paying out $4M a year/100 employees. Figure $5M when you add in bonuses, benefits, and payroll taxes. (Rough figures folks, but we're going ballpark here).

Now lets look at how much income we'll have. If you charge $50 a box you get $5M per 100K purchases. The 100K mark used to be a big benchmark before 2004 and WoW by the way. Now you think you just made $5M off of box sales but you actually don't. There's a lot of middlemen there, so 40% is much more realistic. In reality you just made $2M for selling 100K games. So box sales won't pay the bills. All they do is get you subscribers.

You have three options when you price the game to the players. Free to play with microtransactions, traditional subscribers, or some combination thereof. If you charge $15 a month then you pull in $1.5M a month or $18M a year. (Don't forget you lose $15 for the first month per sub.)

How much does it take to make the game? The more cutting edge you go with graphics the higher your costs. So if you want a graphics driven game you have to really work the technical elements and go for higher tech customers. The higher the tech required to play the game the smaller the pool of potential subs. See what happened to EQ2 for an example of how that worked. Basically the better the graphics are, the more subs you need, but you run into diminishing returns because you will have less people able to play the game.

So far we're looking at pulling in less than $20M for the first year if you get 100K subs. Obviously 100K subs isn't the new benchmark. You need more than that and you have to hope to have a five year life cycle for the game in order to make back the investment, turn a profit, and do what? You have to be preparing the first expansion the day after launch. So you have one team fixing the problems in the game while the other team is building the next expansion. Obviously you should have developed a five year plan for the game's development so you can be in the technical part of that expansion the day after launch, not the initial development of it.

Go back to graphics. If we go with the slightly better than market average graphics EXPECTED just before the game's initial launch, then we can work with good stuff today in expectation that a large pool of potential subs will have the tech needed to play the game at better than average specs. However, if we go with the lesser graphics we need content. This is where the game is made or broken. It's a fact that MMO players don't necessarily need cutting edge graphics. What they want is good gameplay and good content.
That means you better have a world that appeals to a wide range of players. You need about 250K subs (or the dollar equivalent thereof at $15 a month or better) to make a really good game. So you can see that the subs may not make enough and RMT is needed to boost income. How many employees are there? 400? That's $20M a year in wages. Notice that I didn't include the physical overhead or utilities or anything else. General rule of thumb is that the office expenses equal labor in a physical production world, but since this isn't that way the office expenses will be less than labor. I don't have a hard figure for this, but I'm sure there are those who can tell us what an office building for 300 to 400 employees would cost to operate on a yearly basis. We also have to allow for marketing, licensing, legal, and any kind of cost that comes from outside the building.
If you have 250K subs, you have about $45M in yearly revenue. You need to boost that. RMT can help. Go back to the sales. Why sell anything for a 40% return? After the initial game sale, go digital download. You get the entire amount. For that matter think like this. Why even go with expansions? Sell mini expansions for $5 a pop that are good updates with entire new zones built around the game's progression. They can be made according to a master plan of development. Throw in some free ones as well. That might take out the long delays in product expansion and increase length of subs while raising the amount of revenue over time.
I think a good game can be made for about $35M, but it won't be cutting edge graphics. The trick is all in getting a very small group of people to build a game plan and then develop the game so that it launches with everything you want on Day one. The larger amount of employees get brought in when you're ready to move from concept and initial design to actual construction.

The plan isn't perfect, but then I don't have $35M to start making a game. I think the way to make a great game is to make a good game first. If it's great, people will play it. I think part of the problem is that the suits want WoW and that's not going to happen every time. Plan accordingly and make the good game. It could sell 1M copies and have 500K subs over 5 years or more, but make damn sure you make a game that gets you 250K subs.

[Sithel1988]

dude......facial expressions man. im so fuckin excited

[bridgetroll]

I'd like to see more sandbox mmo's developed. Minecraft + Everquest would be an interesting game. I'd play the shit out of it.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/10/20/sony-online-entertainment-everquest-next-sandbox-mmo/

I guess he heard me.

[RahlaeRuffian]

I'm not big on the sandbox/themepark terminology and how it fits in with this and other games, but I guess its player made content vs. dev made content? Can someone provide some examples whether it be EQ or WoW? The only examples I can really think of for sandbox is crafting or maybe siding with factions based on your actions. I would think that raiding and dungeons would have to be themepark for the most part?

So, I'm curious to know what kind of balance there will be between the two.

[gloine36]

Based on what Smed said I'm actually excited and want to check EQNext out. I'm glad to see they pulled back what they were doing and changed directions because he is right. Why have just another cloned EQ/WoW game?

[Anderdale]

looking forward to it and saving up for a new laptop when it comes out.

[Ephirith]

Based on what Smed said I'm actually excited and want to check EQNext out. I'm glad to see they pulled back what they were doing and changed directions because he is right. Why have just another cloned EQ/WoW game?

Keep in mind almost every MMO since WoW has claimed not to be a clone, but has been anyway. It's rhetoric and I'm not expecting it to pan out.

The next great MMO is going to come from a team of developers who aren't under a profit-pressure from a bunch of MBA executives, or from a corporate culture that harbors creativity and forward thinking-- not milking an IP.

[Diggles]

sandbox sandbox sandbox sandbox

[Rovas]

We will never get another "Everquest" type/style of game, and that because Everquest was made in a time when gaming was expensive, difficult, and taboo. Brad and Steve were passionate about games, they were working in a nursery when Smed asked them to come create Everquest. In my opinion its not about the passion anymore, its about the dollars, MMO's and Gaming in general have become an industry where there is a lot cash to be made, where as in 1999/2000 it was an art, something that people put their soul into make it as good as possible, even at the expense of profit. Most of the original eq dev team was gone by 2002. I'm almost certain all the great minds that fostered and created EQ are gone by now and want nothing to do with Smed or SOE.

[Diggles]

WOE IS ME GAMING IS MADE FOR PROFIT WAAAAH

You probably think Verant sold out to SoE as well.

There are plenty of absolutely great games out there, fucking PS2 just launched and Smedley's name is being sung by angels, for fucks sake, Smed is playing EVE right now to get a good idea of how a sandbox game should be set up for EQN.

[Alarti0001]

Keep in mind almost every MMO since WoW has claimed not to be a clone, but has been anyway. It's rhetoric and I'm not expecting it to pan out.

The next great MMO is going to come from a team of developers who aren't under a profit-pressure from a bunch of MBA executives, or from a corporate culture that harbors creativity and forward thinking-- not milking an IP.

TESO!

[Diggles]

TESO looks like WoW with bad, clunky TERA combat mechanics.

[redgiant]

For the reasons others on thread thread already gave ...

There is as much chance of another Led Zeppelin.

Culture and social changes, sad as they are, have dragged gamer expectations into a gutter it won't climb out of. Games are no longer built for the true world simulation concepts of selflessness, social responsibility and danger that EQ was.

The few Golden Era of MMO pillars like EQ will survive ala P99, as an emulated island in time where like-minded folks can still find each other.

Btw, I expect some players from City of Heroes to find their way to P99 as the game is closed down as of 11/30 (I'm sure some already were playing both). Despite it being a very different game overall, its spirit of Golden Era MMO community makes it surprisingly close to P99 - and that is a Big Deal to those losing the game soon, just like it is a Big Deal to why people are playing on P99 to begin with.

Be glad you all have P99, the CoH folks have no alternative except to watch the world go dark in a few days. There are no emulators at all for the game to date.


P.S.> One way you can easily tell that CoH folks are a very similar dedicated bunch to EQ, take a look at some of the videos they have posted trying to either save the game from closing, or to say goodbye. Reminds me of some of the same things posted over the years by the more creative EQ players on Live.

Save City of Heroes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRsj2DtLCQs&feature=related)

Memories (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hWfkHa4cBI&feature=youtu.be)

[gloine36]

Led Zeppelin was Led Zeppelin and it was great.
The Foo Fighters are The Foo Fighters and it was great.
To say there will be no more great games is too absolute. There will be more. They just haven't arrived yet or haven't been developed yet.

[Telin]

I really hope they have Jay Barbeau compose the music again!

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I really hope they have Jay Barbeau compose the music again!

Agreed. While I did like some of the EQ2 music at the time, it simply wasn't memorable. Orchestral music is that way, of course, too complex to remember without virtuosity or extreme repetition.

[Diggles]

SWTOR music was p. goog. Although, all KOTOR music was absolutely outstanding so no shock there.

[redgiant]

Well, it will take a leap that is currently ... unfathomable given how MMOs have changed.

Even the term 'MMO' doesn't mean what it did in EQ's heyday.

Summary of MMOs now:

Pretty, soulless stages where you can solo and watch immature strangers render.

[Diggles]

Well, it will take a leap that is currently ... unfathomable given how MMOs have changed.

Even the term 'MMO' doesn't mean what it did in EQ's heyday.

Summary of MMOs now:

Pretty, soulless stages where you can solo and watch immature strangers render.
god, these types of people make me sick.

Yes, mmos are easier than they were. Yes, to find a good community you need to get into a guild instead of just being in the game. But for fucks sake, you people act like MMOs have turned into Call of Duty.

[Alarti0001]

TESO looks like WoW with bad, clunky TERA combat mechanics.

You might need to look again, or take off your WOW colored glasses

[BigSlip]

r u guys rly talking about this

[Diggles]

You might need to look again, or take off your WOW colored glasses

Watched the preview video, I stand by my statement. The combat looked stiff as fuck.

It's being developed on the Hero engine, the same engine that brought you SWTOR. The thing isn't ready for an actual game release without about 2-3 years of serious TLC.

[Alarti0001]

Watched the preview video, I stand by my statement. The combat looked stiff as fuck.

It's being developed on the Hero engine, the same engine that brought you SWTOR. The thing isn't ready for an actual game release without about 2-3 years of serious TLC.

Derp the hero engine isnt the game engine. Zenimax has created their own engine entirely. The hero engine was just used for some early testing

[Diggles]

oh okay i was wrong about that

doesn't change my point on the combat looking like poop.

[Alarti0001]

oh okay i was wrong about that

doesn't change my point on the combat looking like poop.

if your point is based on hero engine vids it does.

[Diggles]

No, the video where it was like a preview + dev diary where they explain how quests work and stuff. Looks like trash.

[Alarti0001]

No, the video where it was like a preview + dev diary where they explain how quests work and stuff. Looks like trash.

This one?

http://www.polygon.com/2012/11/8/3616174/the-elder-scrolls-online-dev-diary-provides-first-look-at-gameplay

[Diggles]

Yeah

[Diggles]

If that vid is still the hero engine I'll cut it some slack, haven't seen anything after it.

[Alarti0001]

If that vid is still the hero engine I'll cut it some slack, haven't seen anything after it.

How does that vid look anything like WOW. Other than the fact their are humanoids on cam?

[Kika Maslyaka]

I just watched the ESO video - it looks interesting.
And its a lot closer to Guild Wars 2 from what the devs were saying, than WoW.
The combat style, the quest/raid approach etc.
GW2 graphics a bit more blunt and dry, where ESO a bit more colorful, but its nowhere the cartoonish style of WoW.

[Alarti0001]

I just watched the ESO video - it looks interesting.
And its a lot closer to Guild Wars 2 from what the devs were saying, than WoW.
The combat style, the quest/raid approach etc.
GW2 graphics a bit more blunt and dry, where ESO a bit more colorful, but its nowhere the cartoonish style of WoW.

Its also over a year out from release. Most interesting thing so far to me is the lack of an aggro mechanic. Active blocking is cool too, and combat with your mouse instead of 1 & 2 keys.

[Diggles]

Active blocking is cool too, and combat with your mouse instead of 1 & 2 keys.

AKA clunky TERA combat

[RahlaeRuffian]

That game looks like it would get boring fast. Looks like the same stuff we've been getting for the past several years. I'm just hoping EverQuest Next won't look anything or play anything like Vanguard and EverQuest 2. I've tried both free to play version in the past month and they almost look identical. I thought Age of Conan had some pretty good ideas as far as combat is concerned. I also liked the solo missions you could do early on. However, the social aspect of that game was terrible. It seemed like no one really knew what they were doing. I think keeping some things simple is a good thing.

Also, no one ever responded to my last post. I was hoping someone could explain what kind of major changes would exist in EQN if it is more of a sandbox than other MMOs.

[Diggles]

Also, no one ever responded to my last post. I was hoping someone could explain what kind of major changes would exist in EQN if it is more of a sandbox than other MMOs.

Player controlled cities and the like.

[Alarti0001]

AKA Elder Scrolls combat

[RahlaeRuffian]

Player controlled cities and the like.

Do you think this would be kind of similar to Age of Conan where guilds could build there 'cities'/strongholds from the ground up or would there be some kind of diplomatic quest/dialogue system in place in already existing cities where players could gain status in a city based on their actions?

[Diggles]

Alarti, you can fanboy all you want, it looks like clunky ass TERA combat, sorry you're too hyped up to see it.

Do you think this would be kind of similar to Age of Conan where guilds could build there 'cities'/strongholds from the ground up or would there be some kind of diplomatic quest/dialogue system in place in already existing cities where players could gain status in a city based on their actions? Depends on how many things they take from EVE. EVE involved just going out into "frontier" space and making it your own, not sure how that would work in existing EQ lore considering everything was already established.

I was playing around with the idea of EQN starting with just Faydwer, Antonica and Odus, and when Kunark/Velious etc released in patches, players would establish the FV/OT of whatever continent it was, and it would turn into a player held thing.

[Swish]

...players would establish the FV/OT of whatever continent it was, and it would turn into a player held thing.

Sounds very SW:G, and in a good way! I'd welcome that sort of thing :)

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, you can fanboy all you want, it looks like clunky ass TERA combat, sorry you're too hyped up to see it.

Depends on how many things they take from EVE. EVE involved just going out into "frontier" space and making it your own, not sure how that would work in existing EQ lore considering everything was already established.

I was playing around with the idea of EQN starting with just Faydwer, Antonica and Odus, and when Kunark/Velious etc released in patches, players would establish the FV/OT of whatever continent it was, and it would turn into a player held thing.

Just cause I have a different opinion doesn't mean I'm a fan boy. I actually have my doubts as to whether or not they can make a good MMO or a good TES game as an MMO.

I hope they will. However, you are basing your opinions on a very limited video over a year before release. The video if you listened to the narrative was designed to demonstrate very basic mechanics. The combat was displayed to demonstrate actions. Its usually a good idea to get all the facts about a subject before formulating rational opinions or making really off base comparisons. *Hint* it might require reading.

[Diggles]

(10:44:23 AM) Baron-Sprite: ya
(10:44:33 AM) Baron-Sprite: teso is total shit and will be shit

[stormlord]

It's actually very very simple.

If you're like me and prefer tough penalties and no in-game map and no radar and no dumb travel and so on, you will find it almost impossible to find a good game that's mainstream. Let me just say it: Mainstream is out. It's not in my deck anymore. I don't care what the mainstream does because I know they can't do what I want. For me, these days, it's all about indy games and old games because they CAN do what I want.

I'm playing Wurm Online right now. No in-game map. Even has corpse returns. Items have weight and volume. If you don't eat and drink, you lose weight and your stamina goes up slower and, at worst, it won't go up at all. It has a feel of realism at times. There're over 130 skills. It's a sandbox so you can build a house or build a city. There're pvp servers. There's a pvp server that has no rules. I could go on and on. This game has a lot of detail. It's the kind of game that will penalize you if you don't pay attention. It's not afraid to hurt you.

Wurm Online is not a perfect game. Some parts of it are too grindy. Some parts are too easy. Some parts are just lacking. But it's the most immersive experience I've ever had in an online game. I swear to you guys, my first few weeks in Wurm Online this year were ones I won't forget. Today I am reminded that if a game cannot hurt me or be too complicated then it's not immersive. Too many games remove the pain and are too simple and hold your hand too much and they don't have any immersion. They're just disneyland.

There're lots of games out there. The challenge is still there you just have to look for it. Not all MMO's are equal. Not all MMO's are trying to be like WoW or get 1 million subs.

I'm one of you. I started EQ1 in March 1999. I played off and on until 2010. I played on Sullon Zek, the toughest server in all EQ (no level limit in pvp). I liked how EQ played in those early days.

Here're a few things I don't like about some modern games:
1) Too many icons/windows/hotkeys/etc BS on the screen
2) Too many signs and symbols and !!!!!!!!!! and everything on rails
3) Combat and adventure feels too tame; too simple; too safe
4) Asian-models - i don't really like them; does htis make me racist?
5) Wow-like warrior models with over-sized muscles and made-for-kids feel
6) The rush to max level and the mudflation and the superficial-ness of it all
7) The always-increasing system requirements and the mega-millions needed for development
8) Too much skin and boobs and muscles in hte models
9) NPCs/Monsters are stupid and everytyhing about them feels staged and premade
....

I like project 1999. I tried it for a while. Great place. But I'll admit that I wish it could be updated. I wish it could be upgraded and advanced and so forth. But I don't mean removing corpse returns. I don't mean making travel easy. I don't mean removing aggro or trains. I don't mean removing tough decisions. I don't mean removing the need to group with others. You know what I mean. But, honestly, EQ1 is not the end all of online worlds. No game is perfect. Even if EQ1 were perfect, people will get bored of its content, sooner or later. There's a need to always either add to the game or to change parts of it. It's what changes and how fast that matters.

I'll just stop at this: EQ1 is great, but it's not the end!

(btw, for old games, visit gog.com)

[Telin]

"8) Too much skin and boobs and muscles in the models"

Lara Croft inspired boobs are mandatory! It makes things sell, have you ever noticed that every EverQuest game box has a large-chested Firiona Vie featured?

But this might be going too far:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1064/soulcaliburivscreenshotm.jpg

[Kika Maslyaka]

Lineage was the one that took "sexy chainmail bikini" a few steps too far ;)

http://hodyl.net/blog/gallery/L2/TianDora-big.jpg

eq2 on other hand was always criticizes for their ultra-realistic (non fantasy) look of medieval armor. Anyone who wore plate looked like they were wearing a rusted tin bucket...

[stormlord]

Lineage was the one that took "sexy chainmail bikini" a few steps too far ;)

http://hodyl.net/blog/gallery/L2/TianDora-big.jpg

eq2 on other hand was always criticizes for their ultra-realistic (non fantasy) look of medieval armor. Anyone who wore plate looked like they were wearing a rusted tin bucket...
Give some examples of the "tin buket" look.

You gave us a pic of boobs so give us a pic of the tin bucket.

[stormlord]

"8) Too much skin and boobs and muscles in the models"

Lara Croft inspired boobs are mandatory! It makes things sell, have you ever noticed that every EverQuest game box has a large-chested Firiona Vie featured?

But this might be going too far:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/1064/soulcaliburivscreenshotm.jpg
I don't play in these games to see tits, I play em to be in another world.

It's ok if there're options, but a lot of times there're not.

Eq1 is nice in this way. The gnomes have big noses and look old. The trolls and ogres are butt ugly. A lot of it's in the facial texture maps since the ratio's between eyes and mouth and nose can be different. The newer eq1 models don't have that. It's nice to see old looking characters in games. Of course, if they're too old it might look wrong if they're a warrior. There're other examples in the eq1 models. But even EQ1 shows too much skin, imho, especially on the woman. I think it adds to a game when there're not just young hunks and sluts.

I guess I could say I like some realism. I'm not sure how mcuh is too much. I just know that I like it usually when I see it. But I know just as well that too mcuh realism can be a chore. Just doesn't happen often. Games are far from being too realistic. Problem I have with them is they're too UNrealistic. Of course, 20 different players might give you 20 different answers about what realism is. But I'd say that we can define realism simply by observing reality and its scientific laws. We can see how it behaves and how it looks and try to emulate it. This is not random, it's a matter of taking our observations and molding them into a computer program. An example of this is when somebody says "The graphics in that game are realistic." They're using their observations in RL and applying them to the game. We can do that with other things too. We can do this because reality is a shared experience and we all have shared DNA too. We're not separate.

I know I'm in a minority. And I know whenever I state my opinions I have 20 people wanting to attack me. But it's just the nature of being who I am. If I'm not mostly alone, that would be news to me.

I'll go back to my cave now. The one that says Do Not Enter.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Give some examples of the "tin buket" look.

You gave us a pic of boobs so give us a pic of the tin bucket.


http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090520202608/eq2/images/1/1b/Cons_BIArmor.png

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080703020037/eq2/images/8/8c/Warborn_Blood_Iron_%28set%29.jpg

To add to these - 90% of the armor of same type looks almost the same and for all racess. You know how how people like to rant that Luclin took away textured graphics? EQ2 done even worse - there is not even race special looks. The plate "bucket" looks absolutely the same for any race.

Yeah in WoW same specific armor has same texture for the races, but WoW has tons of different textures, even for most basic armors you can get in low levels.
On EQ2 all crafted armor from 1 to 80 uses exactly same texture for all races, minus color tint variations. Some raiding/quested armor has slightly different look, but not better by much. Compared to that Luclin armors are simply gorgeous.

I am not asking for Lineage/Terra slat-house (even thought they do have tons and tons different textures btw), but for fantasy game, the armor should exhibit SOME fantasy qualities. Real medieval armor did look like metal bucket cause it had to be that way for practical purposes. Magical armor doesn't have to be.

[Hollywood]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090520202608/eq2/images/1/1b/Cons_BIArmor.png

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080703020037/eq2/images/8/8c/Warborn_Blood_Iron_%28set%29.jpg

To add to these - 90% of the armor of same type looks almost the same and for all racess. You know how how people like to rant that Luclin took away textured graphics? EQ2 done even worse - there is not even race special looks. The plate "bucket" looks absolutely the same for any race.

Yeah in WoW same specific armor has same texture for the races, but WoW has tons of different textures, even for most basic armors you can get in low levels.
On EQ2 all crafted armor from 1 to 80 uses exactly same texture for all races, minus color tint variations. Some raiding/quested armor has slightly different look, but not better by much. Compared to that Luclin armors are simply gorgeous.

I am not asking for Lineage/Terra slat-house (even thought they do have tons and tons different textures btw), but for fantasy game, the armor should exhibit SOME fantasy qualities. Real medieval armor did look like metal bucket cause it had to be that way for practical purposes. Magical armor doesn't have to be.

While I won't say the above EverQuest 2 armors are great or terrible, I will say that MMORPGs focus too much on armor looks. IF they spent half the time on gameplay as they do on 'gear' aesthetics we'd have a pretty awesome game.

As a natural progression, better gear (and by extension better looking) became part of the carrot.

However it's passe now and we're beyond that.
You look at any genre of video games, and the adage of Gameplay>Graphics is making a return.

Much like the majority of items/armor in the Elder Scrolls series, we should go back to an art style that is very realism and historical based.
Additionally a large portion of items should not have + stats or magical properties, so you don't chase after or seek out new armor as a means of progression.

Clothing is clothing. You wear it just to cover ones self. It offers no protection and certainly cannot be + fire resistant!
Leather is often a deterrent against weather and carries reusable practicality.
Chain and plate is for maximum protection yet is not something you wear all the time.

Whether it's PCs or NPCs(even worse when it's NPCs), seeing characters constantly in full battle gear no matter where they are, really kills immersion.

Some games are starting to use 'town dress' like in Guild Wars 2, however it's optional where as I would expect it to be mandatory (automatic switch when you enter a town, and has multiple random outfits[not too many though]). Ideally your 'equipment' would rarely ever change look, style and the patterns and for the most part they would be often virtually identical - cause let's face it, a pair of leather pantaloons is not going to be that diverse.

If they take the focus away from this aspect then most people will eventually get over it - and good riddance to the socialites who can't get past it, because they're just a waste of server space anyways.
Seems the proof is in the pudding when you ask nine of ten Elder Scroll type players, and they'll say they have no interest in how their armor looks, they just want good damage reduction to weight ratio. Otherwise, it's all about game play.



Really Sony only has to accomplish two things - make an Elder Scrolls style MMORPG* and add in some modern day convenience features that have become mainstream(but with their own Sony style to it) to help accommodate large scale social interaction.

*Unlike Elder Online which will be a lobby type connection game.


Unfortunately in my above suggestion I feel the latter (social features with Sony's style) is going to be their main attraction...like face (webcam) recognition for real time emotes... great technology..but it's still fluff.

[Arrngrim79]

"sexy chainmail bikini" a few steps too far

I don't really agree with this statement, there is no such thing as too far with chainmail bikini's...

[Kika Maslyaka]

Much like the majority of items/armor in the Elder Scrolls series, we should go back to an art style that is very realism and historical based.

Well I have to disagree a bit here.
yes but all means Gameplay >>> Graphics, but when it does comes to graphics, it should match the theme.

If you playing Medieval Total War - then yes your armor should be realistic, but If we talking fantasy game, the magical armor should look more than a typical medieval one.

[Sturgeon]

Are graphics really that important to people? I never really cared, hell I always turn down graphic settings for every game to just make sure I optimize my output but yeah graphics have never been a deal breaker for me, hell I'm playing P99 and the graphics are horrible...