To the devs

[Razdeline]

Have you all thought about making your own game?

I have been thinking lately that the next big mmo (if there ever is one due to market saturation), would be something that harbors mechanics similar to the original Everquest era.

Perhaps something with the exact same mechanics, utilized with an updated physics engine and graphics. I know of a few free engines one could use to make something like this possible.

The hardest part of creation would obviously be money, but maybe even doing it the same way they did it back then and find people that are extremely passionate about something like this. Would need a team of artists, few programmers, designers, writers, etc etc. Maybe even find people that would work for free.

The thing is, Everquest was immersive on a grandiose scale. Certain things like corpse runs, no maps, no global chat channels, player required teleportation; forced the game to make people socialize. We all know this.

I mean, we all don't need to be psychologists to understand what drew us here, and the big question is-- why hasn't anyone (in the industry) done this yet?

[Roth]

Have you all thought about making your own game?

I have been thinking lately that the next big mmo (if there ever is one due to market saturation), would be something that harbors mechanics similar to the original Everquest era.

Perhaps something with the exact same mechanics, utilized with an updated physics engine and graphics. I know of a few free engines one could use to make something like this possible.

The hardest part of creation would obviously be money, but maybe even doing it the same way they did it back then and find people that are extremely passionate about something like this. Would need a team of artists, few programmers, designers, writers, etc etc. Maybe even find people that would work for free.

The thing is, Everquest was immersive on a grandiose scale. Certain things like corpse runs, no maps, no global chat channels, player required teleportation; forced the game to make people socialize. We all know this.

I mean, we all don't need to be psychologists to understand what drew us here, and the big question is-- why hasn't anyone (in the industry) done this yet?

Money.

[Razdeline]

How do indie games form and be successful then. I wonder what type of people invest in things like this. (use league of legends for example, it was an indie company starting, and the CEO's first business venture. He hit a grand slam the first try)

[Roth]

How do indie games form and be successful then. I wonder what type of people invest in things like this. (use league of legends for example, it was an indie company starting, and the CEO's first business venture. He hit a grand slam the first try)

Okay, to kind of show you what you're asking, why don't you yourself make a game? Hire devs, programmers, set up a website and recruit people. It should be possible as long as you have a concept. Secondly, league of legends isn't really indie I don't think, at least not at its core.

Lastly, people have tried. Just these games are buggy and secondly people don't really know what they want. People don't make an "eq"... they make games like darkfall that are supposed to be as hardcore sandboxes as can be. That's not really what made classic eq what it was. The corpse runs and all that added something yes but it was mostly the feel of the world and the fact that it had a heart. It's hard to recreate that feel and heart without both passion and funding together.

[Sojourner]

Have you all thought about making your own game?

I have been thinking lately that the next big mmo (if there ever is one due to market saturation), would be something that harbors mechanics similar to the original Everquest era.

Perhaps something with the exact same mechanics, utilized with an updated physics engine and graphics. I know of a few free engines one could use to make something like this possible.

The hardest part of creation would obviously be money, but maybe even doing it the same way they did it back then and find people that are extremely passionate about something like this. Would need a team of artists, few programmers, designers, writers, etc etc. Maybe even find people that would work for free.

The thing is, Everquest was immersive on a grandiose scale. Certain things like corpse runs, no maps, no global chat channels, player required teleportation; forced the game to make people socialize. We all know this.

I mean, we all don't need to be psychologists to understand what drew us here, and the big question is-- why hasn't anyone (in the industry) done this yet?

How do indie games form and be successful then. I wonder what type of people invest in things like this. (use league of legends for example, it was an indie company starting, and the CEO's first business venture. He hit a grand slam the first try)



I'm glad your brain finally had a thought, but just stick to making the fries.

Remember, I like them golden brown.

[Razdeline]

League is and was, a small company starting. Some of the key developers worked on Defense of the Ancients, broke off and did their own gig.

I think if I were to make a game with lack of funding I have for such an adventure, I would need to know and trust a large group of talented people in this field... and I lack that as well. I wonder if people on p99, for example, would donate to such a cause?

I did think about what you said Roth, but what im aiming for with this conversation is to see who harbors similar thoughts!

[Atmas]

Have you all thought about making your own game?

I have been thinking lately that the next big mmo (if there ever is one due to market saturation), would be something that harbors mechanics similar to the original Everquest era.

Perhaps something with the exact same mechanics, utilized with an updated physics engine and graphics. I know of a few free engines one could use to make something like this possible.

The hardest part of creation would obviously be money, but maybe even doing it the same way they did it back then and find people that are extremely passionate about something like this. Would need a team of artists, few programmers, designers, writers, etc etc. Maybe even find people that would work for free.

The thing is, Everquest was immersive on a grandiose scale. Certain things like corpse runs, no maps, no global chat channels, player required teleportation; forced the game to make people socialize. We all know this.

I mean, we all don't need to be psychologists to understand what drew us here, and the big question is-- why hasn't anyone (in the industry) done this yet?

Aside from the large amount of time and money it takes to produce an MMO, which really can't be overstated, you will have problems producing something for a niche market. Look at this server, its a free game whose population has never hit anything like the 2k mark. You would need around 800 monthly subscriptions just to pay for the cost of your lead developer. I point this out because indie projects that turn into large commercial organizations end up having to have real full time staff.

Everquest was very successful because at the time it was produced there was nothing else at its level so they had time to produce a lot of the features that are expected at launch of an MMO. Alot of MMOs that are backed by big bucks fail now a days because there is so much content necessary when starting from scratch. Read up on what just happened with Curt (now) Schillingless.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is a (forgive the pun) massive undertaking. Even the amount of time and money you spend on Artist and Animators would make your eyes explode :eek:. Consider that with all the work done on EQEmu and P99 the models and maps were something that they had from the begining.

All that said it is something I still think about regularly. If I was in charge of such a project I think there is a good chance I would approach the Devs here about employement because I think they have done some impressive work.

[Razdeline]

Aside from the large amount of time and money it takes to produce an MMO, which really can't be overstated, you will have problems producing something for a niche market. Look at this server, its a free game whose population has never hit anything like the 2k mark. You would need around 800 monthly subscriptions just to pay for the cost of your lead developer. I point this out because indie projects that turn into large commercial organizations end up having to have real full time staff.

Everquest was very successful because at the time it was produced there was nothing else at its level so they had time to produce a lot of the features that are expected at launch of an MMO. Alot of MMOs that are backed by big bucks fail now a days because there is so much content necessary when starting from scratch. Read up on what just happened with Curt (now) Schillingless.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is a (forgive the pun) massive undertaking. Even the amount of time and money you spend on Artist and Animators would make your eyes explode :eek:. Consider that with all the work done on EQEmu and P99 the models and maps were something that had from the begining.

All that said it is something I still think about regularly. If I was in charge of such a project I think there is a good chance I would approach the Devs here about employement because I think they have done some impressive work.

Very good post and something I was thinking about as well. When EQ happened it was at the right place at the right time.

[Roth]

League is and was, a small company starting. Some of the key developers worked on Defense of the Ancients, broke off and did their own gig.

I think if I were to make a game with lack of funding I have for such an adventure, I would need to know and trust a large group of talented people in this field... and I lack that as well. I wonder if people on p99, for example, would donate to such a cause?

I did think about what you said Roth, but what im aiming for with this conversation is to see who harbors similar thoughts!

Well, I'll tell you for me personally what makes eq special and why I'm back here. There are a few things I think that make eq special(in it's original incarnation).

- lack of direction... you don't really have any goals or guidance. you're just dropped in a world and sent off to do things
- A world that feels huge and makes you feel small... the difficulty of travel makes it feel like you're on a journey and going to far off lands really feels like an adventure. It also gives each area of eq a unique identity
-danger and fear... I think the fact that you feel like you're doing something hard and challenging makes it feel more exciting and fun. You feel more involved in the world. Soloing in eq is only fun because you're not really meant to solo... in other games soloing sucks.
-the social aspect and depending on others... the grouping aspect of this game is fun because it gives permanence and value to your experience and makes you feel part of a world. This is why I believe cross server grouping doesn't really work in other games because you don't really have that sense of community and your character's place in it. With a heavy grouping game, even at low levels you still feel like you're part of the server and what's going on. In top heavy solo games leveling feels like a chore since it just feels like it doesn't matter.
-Last but most importantly, the imperfection... The fact that everything in eq is unpredictable and difficult to solve and being creative can help you is what makes it have a certain feel. Too often in newer mmos everything is so solvable and predictable and everything just makes too much sense. Sometimes you need a random red named kos con walking through lowbie zones because it makes you unsure of what to expect. Everything being too perfect ruins most new games.

Notice I never said difficulty ever directly mattered. So many people when they design an "eq" mmo say ok, let's make this game as hardcore as possible, we want corpse runs, no binding, perma death, full loot, ffa pvp... it's endless. This is not really what eq is about. Sometimes those things indirectly lead to making eq fun but I quit many times just because of corpse runs and exp loss and zoning... I'm not that hardcore apparently, because those things can become too frustrating really quickly. Personally I don't care about the challenge. I just want the feel. If a game company wants to make an eq style mmo and be successful, they need to make it easy to get into while still somehow retaining the aspects that makes a game feel special.

[gprater]

I think he has a good idea whether its possible or not....but Ill be the developers are glad to see they have so many proxies to help them reply to threads/.

[Blotto]

Big difference running an emu server and creating something from scratch.

[SamwiseBanned]

MineCraft

[batkiller]

There are some games like how you described it, but they all have issues. Here are three examples of games you would love but all had major issues.

Minions of Mirth
This is one of the best MMORPG's I have ever played. It was similar to EQ, similar graphics, harsh death, inter-dependence etc. I had a LOT of fun playing that game. Sadly... the fun only lasted for a few months. An MMORPG like that made by only 3 or 4 people just can't develop enough content to keep you happy for a long time. What they did make was fantastic, but there were only a dozen or so zones, and a dozen or so quests.

Dawntide
One of the first, and the most successful Everquest emulator servers (before P99 came along) was made by this one guy. He did a great job and his server was a LOT of fun. He took on more and more volunteers to develop it even further and it grew and grew and has lots of content (it's still going today). But eventually he had done all he wanted to do with it, and he and some of his uber staff left and formed their own company to make their own MMORPG, exactly like you described. They decided to make a very hardcore, sandboxish MMO world inspired as much by Ultima Online as it was by EQ. Not sure if the beta is still available, but they opened the beta up to anyone and people can/could play it and give them feedback. Anyway, it was developing, verrry sloowwwwly, but still, it was going in the right direction, gradually. But then it all went quiet for a long time, and eventually they posted a message, "I’m sure it hasn’t escaped anyone’s notice that we haven’t resumed development or posted any news in quite some time. The truth is, we experienced some uenxpected financial difficulties at the end of last year, and while we expected to have them solved quickly, this did not happen. In fact, as it stands right now we do not have the money to continue developing Dawntide." They say they are still looking for new investors, but I don't hold out any hopes for them to be honest. And they also have the added issue that their game looks more and more dated as the years go by. When I first saw early screenshots in 2008 or so, it looked really good! By 2011 it was starting to look pretty old. And now, with probably at least a year or two until it even makes it to release (if at all), it's going to look even more ancient.

Vanguard: Saga of Heroes
You must have heard about this game? This was BIG hope for many former EQ fans. Brad McQuaid who was one of the key people behind Everquest, left and started his own company, Sigil Games Online. He got huge funding from Microsoft, and he hired an amazing team of all the best people in the industry, and they set to work on the killer MMORPG that was going to blow us all away.
Somewhere along the way, things went horribly wrong. They ended up splitting up with Microsoft and therefore ran out of funding completely, and had to go with whoever would take them on. And during Beta, the original game which was very original and very hardcore, they started getting negative feedback from some of the testers. Rather than having the balls and the self confidence to stick to their plan, they started making changes, and more changes, and even more changes... By the later stages of beta, they had basically completely changed how the game plays, and made it in to just another WoW type game.
Apparantly, it still managed to get 400,000 subscriptions in it's first month which was about as high as EQ was during it's peak! But within one month, almost all of those players had quit, and they never returned.



The moral of the story? A lot of people would love to make a new MMORPG but with old school designs. But it's easier said than done! To say the least.

[Wudan]

The moral of the story? A lot of people would love to make a new MMORPG but with old school designs. But it's easier said than done! To say the least.

Im starting to think there is different development concept needed for future mmos. Either that or 150mil. $! I mean hire people for minimum possible wages or even for free and give them percentage of the company in exchange for their work. I think the development team needs to be the actual owner of the company. It would cut the expanses down a lot and it would make the people much more involved with the product. It is VERY expensive to pay these people and you need so many for such a long time in order to make the game that it just makes it almost impossible to be successful. Just a tought.

[Atmas]

Im starting to think there is different development concept needed for future mmos. Either that or 150mil. $! I mean hire people for minimum possible wages or even for free and give them percentage of the company in exchange for their work. I think the development team needs to be the actual owner of the company. It would cut the expanses down a lot and it would make the people much more involved with the product. It is VERY expensive to pay these people and you need so many for such a long time in order to make the game that it just makes it almost impossible to be successful. Just a tought.

It's a good thought and many start ups attract cheaper labor in this manner. The problem is once again the level of effort will require people to be on board in this manner for years. Not always feasible for a project that may not pan out.

[Kevlar]

Who the hell is going to code a video game for free when they can go work for some corporation and write business applications for 150k per year.

[fadetree]

Who the hell gets 150k per year to write business apps? Let me know, I could use some of that.

[batkiller]

It all sounds hopeless at the moment, but I think we will get what we want eventually. Personally I am just as excited about Guild Wars 2 as anything. I have played the beta quite a lot and I love it. It's not really the EQ type experience a lot of us have wanted for years, but it's different, and it's just as fun in its own way. So I can't wait for that.

And besides being fun, another thing GW2 shows is that if you make one game which is smaller in scale, and it's a big success, you can then afford to make a second game exactly how you want it, and with no interference from publishers. No need to dumb it down etc. There is another promising game which is more sandbox style called ArcheAge which is well worth looking in to.

There is also hope in the future with reduced costs and better availability of 'middle ware'. In other words, there are large chunks of software that you can just buy and use it to make a game. SpeedTree is one example, you buy it, but then it creates all the trees in your entire game. They are great looking too, and don't kill your frame rate, and no artists need to do any work on them. There are other kinds of 'middle ware' too, and eventually as the industry and the MMO genre matures, there will be more of this stuff, and it will come down in price. So independent projects will stand a better chance. Independent games might not be as big and fancy as the big budget ones, but we may still get some great games that are better than the now aging EQ.