Zimmerman / Martin Shooting

[LordFresh]

Just curious how this community feels about the shooting. Allot dont care (rightfully so) about this but it has become pretty crazy in the media. Guilty, not guilty.

Zimmermans side. Yea I was looking for him but it wasnt for a fight. The kid confronted me and started a fight. I wouldnt have shot him if he wasnt slaming my head into concrete and reaching for my gun. After the shooting he took a lie detector test and passed the test as to his version of the story.

Martin family side. Our son was shot because he was black and outside with a hoody on. He was a good kid that wasnt looking for a fight. He was just going to the store to get some candy for himself and his brothers. He was just standing up for himself after zimmerman stalked him. He must of felt threatened enough to defend himself. The only reason zimmerman looked at him was because he was black - no other reason. Zimmerman was the person who confronted a unarmed teenager - knowing he was armed himself.

[Massive Marc]

I'm not 100% sure of any new developments, but from the last time I read about the story, it seemed to me that it was a over zealous "do gooder" with a gun shooting a kid, that may or may not have been threating his life.

The last part is key, if his life was in danger then there is some justification for shooting him, but lets face reality here:

If you have a gun and you're larger, probably have some self-defense course under your belt and you're older and more experienced - I really doubt some black kid half your age and size is threating your life without a weapon. Even..even if he genuinely felt in danger, he could have just shot the kid in the leg, arm, shoulder etc...etc...

Zimmerman is going to have to take responsibility for his actions, because they were poorly thought out.

[LordFresh]

I agree with what you are saying. As far as law goes I dont think there is any mention of needing to "use your hands or fists" to defend yourself. You can sit there and let someone beat you up but the moment the person rises the level of the assult to a point were you can die you can use lethal force.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oG7kncKwhQ6mAAVG9XNyoA?p=zimmerman+h ead+wound&fr=yfp-t-553&fr2=piv-web

Here are the head wounds zimmerman had from getting assulted.

The police report shows Martin at 6' - 160lbs. The same report shows Zimmerman at 5' 9". Reguardless of size and weight I believe Zimmerman is a moron. He should of stayed in the car. As far as right and wrong I believe Martin shouldnt have been slaming his head onto concrete. If I was scared for my life I would of got the guy down and looked for an escape route - and high tailed it out of there.

My vote is that Zimmerman didnt break any laws but he is a moron.
I look at it this way. If I have a CCW (conceal carry permit) and I decide to walk down the worste streets in Harlem I am indeed a moron. In the same sentance if someone assults me while doing so and is slaming my head into concrete I can within the law to defend myself with lethal force.

[Asher]

I agree with what you are saying. As far as law goes I dont think there is any mention of needing to "use your hands or fists" to defend yourself. You can sit there and let someone beat you up but the moment the person rises the level of the assult to a point were you can die you can use lethal force.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oG7kncKwhQ6mAAVG9XNyoA?p=zimmerman+h ead+wound&fr=yfp-t-553&fr2=piv-web

Here are the head wounds zimmerman had from getting assulted.

The police report shows Martin at 6' - 160lbs. The same report shows Zimmerman at 5' 9". Reguardless of size and weight I believe Zimmerman is a moron. He should of stayed in the car. As far as right and wrong I believe Martin shouldnt have been slaming his head onto concrete. If I was scared for my life I would of got the guy down and looked for an escape route - and high tailed it out of there.

My vote is that Zimmerman didnt break any laws but he is a moron.
I look at it this way. If I have a CCW (conceal carry permit) and I decide to walk down the worste streets in Harlem I am indeed a moron. In the same sentance if someone assults me while doing so and is slaming my head into concrete I can within the law to defend myself with lethal force.

Only in America can you chase after someone after the police have told you to leave them alone, say that you felt threatened and shoot and kill him and not break any laws.

When you have the opportunity to not even start the encounter and you choose to start it anyways, against the wishes of the authorities, you should not be able to claim that you felt threatened.

I hope he gets ass raped in prison over and over.

Asher

[Liukang]

well i just wanna know what is a 17 y/o old black kid walking around a white sub urb at 11 o clock at knight with a hoodie on why would u wear a hoodie YOU LIVE IN FLORIDA this kid doesnt look innocent he looks like lil wayne so if he zimmermen did get attack which there is proof saying he did well SHIT HAPPENS period

[LordFresh]

Only in America can you chase after someone after the police have told you to leave them alone, say that you felt threatened and shoot and kill him and not break any laws.

When you have the opportunity to not even start the encounter and you choose to start it anyways, against the wishes of the authorities, you should not be able to claim that you felt threatened.

I hope he gets ass raped in prison over and over.

Asher

LOL thats awesome. And true.

Look at it this way. How many women take back men who have literally threatened there life and beaten there woman. When the woman takes them back do they not have a ability to defend themselves now that they put themselves in harms way.

Zimmerman had no way of knowing he would be punched and beaten. It appears that he felt comfortable following at a distance until the confrontation began.

If I had this poll and the 911 operator was someone of authority then my vote would of changed over to he was guilty of disobeying a police order that resulted in the death of another person. The problem is the operator was a random volunteer dispatcher - these are regular people like you or me giving orders - they hold no weight as a legal order.

We use the words "chase" and that gives us the idea of two people running one after the other. This situation wasnt that - it was a young man walking quick with another guy trying to keep an eye on him. In my mind that isnt "starting the confrontation".
If a group of young peope were outside of your home on the street (not your property) is it illegal to walk up and ask them what they are doing and why? No. Is it foolish and a bad idea - absolutely yes. Are you starting a confrontation - all how you look at it. If they start attacking you after this happens and you fight back and one dies (by a gun / knife / fist) does this make you the criminal or the victim.

[Arillious]

As with any story, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Martin was obviously up to no good. Zimmerman was probably pissed about previous vandals.

The one thing that zimmerman will have a hard time with is that the 911 operator told him not to pursue and he did anyways.

Manslaughter at worst here.

[Asher]

As with any story, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Martin was obviously up to no good. Zimmerman was probably pissed about previous vandals.

The one thing that zimmerman will have a hard time with is that the 911 operator told him not to pursue and he did anyways.

Manslaughter at worst here.

Sorry, I haven't been keeping up on the story. Why was he obviously up to no good? Because he was black? Was it the skittles? The hoodie?

Asher

[SamwiseBanned]

hes def a moron, authorities said not to pursue and he did anyway. but arillious is right, the truth probably is somewhere in the middle however I still think what zimmerman did was wrong. if zimmerman would have been black and the kid was white, bet he would already be locked away even if the white kid was a gangster wanna be. bottom line he killed a kid, even if the teen was a shit head yet people are throwing money at him. wad da fuk.

[LordFresh]

hes def a moron, authorities said not to pursue and he did anyway. but arillious is right, the truth probably is somewhere in the middle however I still think what zimmerman did was wrong. if zimmerman would have been black and the kid was white, bet he would already be locked away even if the white kid was a gangster wanna be. bottom line he killed a kid, even if the teen was a shit head yet people are throwing money at him. wad da fuk.

As far as legal - who is the criminal? Who was the first person to break the law? Remember the 911 operator wasnt a person of authority - It was just a operator.

Also I agree with you. If martin killed Zimmerman he would be in jail. But this is something all together wrong with the legal system. IMO its like any middle eastern person trying to get onto a aircraft now. This certain race of people have been known to have issues - so naturally you look at them diffrent than a middle ages red haired ginger getting onto a aircraft.

In america a black youth is up to 3 times more likely to be arrested for a crime than a white youth.

[Asher]

Refresh my memory, what did Tray Martin do to break the law? Was it illegal for him to be walking down the street in a hoodie with some skittles?

I don't think you get to walk down the street harassing people and then say you felt threatened by some kid half your age so you had to kill him.

Asher

[LordFresh]

Refresh my memory, what did Tray Martin do to break the law? Was it illegal for him to be walking down the street in a hoodie with some skittles?

I don't think you get to walk down the street harassing people and then say you felt threatened by some kid half your age so you had to kill him.

Asher

From what we know and Zimmerman took a lie detector test on - Martin took it from verbal to fist. He also continued to break the law by continuing to hit Zimmerman when he was down (mounted him). Zimmerman (possibly) broke the law when he shot Martin. If someone comes up to us with a "problem" that doesnt give us the ability to assult them.

I know if some dude came up to me and said "WTF are you doing here". I would be like "relax - im here staying with my parents etc.

Whenever someone talks of Martin they dont talk about the confrontation and how he handled it. They automatically resort to "he had skittles and ice tea, is that wrong?" . Im not talking about his candy or choise of drink. I am talking about the confrontation that led to a fight that led to a death.

I dont think I would ever assult someone unless they threw on my first or made a comment about my dog. Fucking love my dog brew hehe.

[SamwiseBanned]

this is hilarious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQHdbW36XjE

white kids get to trash a car without anyone saying anything, at the same time people were calling the cops on sleeping black kids at the same location as the car getting trashed lol

[Asher]

From what we know and Zimmerman took a lie detector test on - Martin took it from verbal to fist. He also continued to break the law by continuing to hit Zimmerman when he was down (mounted him). Zimmerman (possibly) broke the law when he shot Martin. If someone comes up to us with a "problem" that doesnt give us the ability to assult them.

I know if some dude came up to me and said "WTF are you doing here". I would be like "relax - im here staying with my parents etc.

Whenever someone talks of Martin they dont talk about the confrontation and how he handled it. They automatically resort to "he had skittles and ice tea, is that wrong?" . Im not talking about his candy or choise of drink. I am talking about the confrontation that led to a fight that led to a death.

I dont think I would ever assult someone unless they threw on my first or made a comment about my dog. Fucking love my dog brew hehe.

Unfortunately, lie detector tests means nothing in a court of law.
Zimmerman definitely started the harassment. None of us will know who said what and who threw the first punch.

We do know that Zimmerman was about twice the age of the kid if I recall correctly. Zimmerman insisted on starting this confrontation after he was told not to, I don't care who it was on the phone at 911 but they had way more authority than he did.

What he did was wrong and he should and will be punished for it. We don't need vigilantes running around our neighbourhoods with guns trying to protect us from people that are suspicious (Black). If you see something you report it to the police and let the authorities deal with it.

Asher

[Lucky]

when some random person is bashing your skull into the concrete and reaches into your waist band at your conceal carry firearm while you are losing consciousness, you should probably kill them b4 they kill u. He only fired once too. American hero

[Asher]

this is hilarious

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQHdbW36XjE

white kids get to trash a car without anyone saying anything, at the same time people were calling the cops on sleeping black kids at the same location as the car getting trashed lol

Black people are inherently scary. I think we should all be able to shoot them if they are in our neighbourhoods. :rolleyes:

Asher

[LordFresh]

Ashur I dont think you are wrong, you bring up some good points. Morally I believe Zimmerman will have to live with himself after making a bad choice (getting out of the fucking car).

Legally I believe the law supports Zimmerman. I also believe thats why he wasnt immediately arrested.

You say that we dont know who started the confrontation - that is true if it isnt on video it didnt happen. We do know that lie detector tests are 87.5% accurate from the surveys I have seen. They arent used in court because they can be wrong. We have a good chance (not 100%) that Zimmerman was right about what happened that night. Although it cannot be used in court as proof - believe me the lawyers will bring it up to the jurors as support of what happened.

We do know Zimmerman was assulted - no way to deny that from Martins camp. What Martins people are constantly refering to is the choise of beverage and snack instead of actually saying "Martin felt threatened and felt he needed to fight for his life". I am 32 years old and I have been in roughly 3 "real" fights. That is either good luck or I dont throw punches unless I need to. I personally feel like Zimmerman was looking to see what the kid was doing and Martin was trying to be "tough". Both arent a crime but throwing a punch is a crime and mounting and pushing someones head into concrete is.

Legally though I dont see how they can put a murder charge on him. How is it possible?

Manslaughter :the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought.
Murder: Intent to kill another human

I dont think any of us agree that when he got out of the car that night or got into a car to head to "target" he intended to kill the guy walking around suspiciously.

[SamwiseBanned]

so all i gotta do to shoot someone is bash my head against the cement? damn maybe it is time i get a gun to protect myself from people with guns.

[tops419]

The MOST important fact is this:
It doesn't matter what Zimmerman was doing, unless he assaulted Martin or trespassed on Martin's property, which he didn't. Martin is wrong for assaulting Zimmerman
You start beating someone up for any reason other than they're beating you up, you put yourself in danger.
If Zimmerman had been out for blood that night, I think the weapon would have come into play alot earlier, not after the ass-kicking he sustained.
Killing another person comes with a high price whether its justified or not, and that's something he will have to carry with him forever. (I've got a tour in OEF to assure you of that)

As far as all the "he's black" stuff goes. Blacks commit more crimes. Whether that's due to socioeconomic circumstances or what, its true. Just like it's true that there are more absentee black fathers. These things are facts.
In the future, circumstances will probably change and the race as a whole will emerge from the current situation (civil rights only became law what, 40 years or so ago?)
For now, the current state of things have made a large portion of blacks, especially young males desperate.
Bill Cosby, Barrack Obama, Steve Harvey, Colin Powell. All of these guys have come out and acknowledged these challenges facing the black community.
Ignoring a problem only makes it worse. ( see Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton....)
Come join the rest of us in the real world Asher

[Alawen]

ITT: Racists don't need to wear Klan costumes to be easily identified.

[HallMonitorSyndrome]

Refresh my memory, what did Tray Martin do to break the law? Was it illegal for him to be walking down the street in a hoodie with some skittles?

I don't think you get to walk down the street harassing people and then say you felt threatened by some kid half your age so you had to kill him.

Asher

He assaulted another human being, violently, and without provocation.

I'd shoot him, too. It's not worth losing my life to find out if "hey maybe he won't kill me, and just stop at beating my skull into the pavement a bit"

No hesitation. You kill people trying to harm you, or you are leaving yourself open to being killed.

[SamwiseBanned]

for all we know the gun came into play immediately and the kid was fighting for his life. shady guy does shady things. if this was your kid, what would you want done?

[tops419]

Samwise, if the gun came into play immediately, please, try to draw a picture of how that could possibly happen and Zimmerman still sustain the injuries? If there were a lose gun that two people were fighting over, they would be focused on gaining control of the weapon and not actually inflicting injuries like the ones sustained by Zimmerman.

[HallMonitorSyndrome]

Most people arguing about this situation have never, and never will be, in a position where they have had to protect themselves(or loved ones) from harm.

It's like Obama telling us how we should react to economic downturn.

[SamwiseBanned]

makes sense but people dont think logically when fighting for their life. noone can be certain what happened, especially when the only one who knows is a shady character. what is certain is that this whole situation was 100% preventable and that martin wasnt doing anything wrong at the time. I am looking at this from the point of view of the parents. even if my kid was a punk ass thug wanna be, no reason for him to die. i dunno i have a son so maybe thats why i feel differently.

[SamwiseBanned]

Most people arguing about this situation have never, and never will be, in a position where they have had to protect themselves(or loved ones) from harm.

It's like Obama telling us how we should react to economic downturn.

cept i have

[Lucky]

zimmerman could have easily died too as his skull was getting cracked like an egg

[LordFresh]

makes sense but people dont think logically when fighting for their life. noone can be certain what happened, especially when the only one who knows is a shady character. what is certain is that this whole situation was 100% preventable and that martin wasnt doing anything wrong at the time. I am looking at this from the point of view of the parents. even if my kid was a punk ass thug wanna be, no reason for him to die. i dunno i have a son so maybe thats why i feel differently.

There are many many mothers / fathers / brothers / sisters that have to bury their family member because they were doing dumb shit. Doesnt make it any less hard or anyone elses fault.

[Hitchens]

I think Naez beat up Zimmerman and shot Trayvon.

[Kraftwerk]

Stop mentioning the age/size thing, you sound like an idiot.

-Trayvon Martin 5'11" 160 lbs, 17 years old
-George Zimmerman 5'8" 185lbs, 28 years old

I'm sorry but height stands out more than weight, and they were only 10 years apart. Hell in most countries you're pretty much full adult at 17. Also his 911 call he says "This guy looks like he's up to no good...", guy, not kid or boy. That was while he was still in his car.

Also the operator never says not to chase him, this is the verbatim line:

"Are you following him?"

"Yea"

"OK, we don't need you to do that."

If you are taking that to be a direct order not to follow than you are smoking crack. It is not a clear statement of no, but pretty ambiguous and easily misunderstood. If the operator said definitively "No do not follow him" instead of being vague like a retard maybe the whole thing wouldn't of happened, who knows.

[SamwiseBanned]

There are many many mothers / fathers / brothers / sisters that have to bury their family member because they were doing dumb shit. Doesnt make it any less hard or anyone elses fault.

walking down the road is dumb?

[LordFresh]

you know how many people are happy minding there own buisness and get into a fist fight for whatever reason and end up killing or dieing? I know someone who was at a party and tried to break it up - guy hits him, he turns and nails the guy and he was the only one arrested and is still paying for it through fines

[Asher]

...without provocation.


Really? If I am 17 and some old dude is following me, probably harassing me, maybe showing a weapon I would feel provoked.

Asher

[Asher]

Stop mentioning the age/size thing, you sound like an idiot.

-Trayvon Martin 5'11" 160 lbs, 17 years old
-George Zimmerman 5'8" 185lbs, 28 years old

I'm sorry but height stands out more than weight, and they were only 10 years apart. Hell in most countries you're pretty much full adult at 17. Also his 911 call he says "This guy looks like he's up to no good...", guy, not kid or boy. That was while he was still in his car.

Also the operator never says not to chase him, this is the verbatim line:

"Are you following him?"

"Yea"

"OK, we don't need you to do that."

If you are taking that to be a direct order not to follow than you are smoking crack. It is not a clear statement of no, but pretty ambiguous and easily misunderstood. If the operator said definitively "No do not follow him" instead of being vague like a retard maybe the whole thing wouldn't of happened, who knows.

You think 17 year olds are the same mentally as a 28 or whatever year old? Age makes a difference whether you like it or not.

A person's bigotry is no defense. A black guy in your neighbourhood doesn't mean he is up to no good. Was he breaking into a car? Was he robbing someone? IIRC he was walking down the street. Last I checked walking down the street and being black isn't a crime.

Asher

[Asher]

You say that we dont know who started the confrontation - that is true if it isnt on video it didnt happen.

I did not say this. I said we don't know who threw the first punch or what was said. Zimmerman definitely started the confrontation. He chose to pursue this person when he was told to go away.

In the very least he will get Manslaughter. I don't think murder is appropriate but when you put guns in the hands of retards this is what happens. You think a trained law enforcement officer would have handled the situation the same way?

I am so glad I am not black or hispanic. Scrawny nerdy white people get left alone. :)

Asher

[Kevlar]

Zimmerman sounds like a real douchebag, but he really didn't do anything wrong. If you see a suspicious looking person in your neighborhood you have every right to confront them. If you see a non-suspicious looking person in your neighborhood you have every right to confront them too.

It isn't illegal to ask someone what they are doing. All Trayvon had to do was tell him to piss off. You can't physically attack someone for being an asshole, like Trayvon apparently did. Well, you can, but then if they shoot you the law is on their side.

[Asher]

Zimmerman sounds like a real douchebag, but he really didn't do anything wrong. If you see a suspicious looking person in your neighborhood you have every right to confront them. If you see a non-suspicious looking person in your neighborhood you have every right to confront them too.

It isn't illegal to ask someone what they are doing. All Trayvon had to do was tell him to piss off. You can't physically attack someone for being an asshole, like Trayvon apparently did. Well, you can, but then if they shoot you the law is on their side.

The thing is we don't know how it all went down. Only one person lived through it so we only have one side. For all we know he did tell him to piss off. For all we know Zimmerman tried to restrain him or search him or who knows what. The bottom line is this never should have happened and wouldn't have happened if this vigilante didn't try and take the law into his own hands.

Asher

[Kevlar]

The thing is we don't know how it all went down. Only one person lived through it so we only have one side. For all we know he did tell him to piss off. For all we know Zimmerman tried to restrain him or search him or who knows what. The bottom line is this never should have happened and wouldn't have happened if this vigilante didn't try and take the law into his own hands.

Asher

There were witnesses who corroborated the Trayvon on top whooping that ass story. Sorry but that part isn't really in dispute. As much as young guys want to be macho and kick everyone's ass, you really should refrain from doing so in states that have legal concealed carry laws.

[Pico]

Only in America can you chase after someone after the police have told you to leave them alone, say that you felt threatened and shoot and kill him and not break any laws.

When you have the opportunity to not even start the encounter and you choose to start it anyways, against the wishes of the authorities, you should not be able to claim that you felt threatened.

I hope he gets ass raped in prison over and over.

Asher

i agree i also feel like justice should be doled out in penis thrusts from bubba, american justice system is very successful this way with most if not all prisoners being completely reformed upon finishing their sentence

[Hitchens]

Trayvon was a punk ass kid who made a really bad decision and Zimmerman is a profiteering, dishonest douchebag.

No heroes here.

[Gringo]

I'm just glad there is one less scumbag in the world.

[Supreme]

So the dumbasses in Florida cannot convict a mother that killed her daughter and Zimmerman is suppose to somehow be worried because?

[Jburks8]

There was a witness who said that Trayvon had mounted him and was "whooping his ass", so it isn't just a one-sided story.. (Zimmerman didn't have self-inflicted wounds).

Trayvon wasn't just walking on the sidewalk, he was walking in between houses at a leisurely pace when it was raining pretty heavily.

If I saw that, no matter what the race, I would probably have a double-take. That is somewhat odd behavior. Sure, it's "just water", but the average person doesn't do that.

There was also a history in the neighborhood of break-ins, so that was another reason Zimmerman felt compelled to act.

[Arillious]

Does anyone really just think that martin was just walking around completely innocent? If Zimmerman was really just a racist bastard looking for blood, he would of taken it out on someone sooner.

[Arclyte]

Z man gonna get off

mass scale chimp out in florida will occur

intelligent people everywhere will facepalm

[LordFresh]

So far we are 28 that Zimmerman is right
11 say Martin was right.

With all the out rage and people afraid to say in public that martin was wrong im actually a bit surprised at the results so far.

[Messianic]

If you've actually read the available facts in this case, you can't conclude that Zimmerman is a murderer - maybe overzealous, maybe a moron, maybe not - but there was no "murder" here.

Maybe there's additional info out there that the prosecution is holding on to, but I doubt it.

No less than Dershowitz himself has argued the same publicly.

[LordFresh]

agreed - murder by definition is a act were you are fully aware you are going to take anothers life before anything has even happened.

Somehow they feel he knew he was going to take Martins life before any confrontation.

[Zereh]

but there was no "murder" here

It wasn't a self-inflicted wound that caused Martin's death and it was not an accident by any stretch of the imagination. So yeah, it's murder. Just because you empathize with the lighter-skinned thug doesn't mean that you get call it anything other than what it was.

[Hitchens]

There is no single cause of Trayvon's death. One must factor in the choices made by Trayvon himself, which were very poor.

[Slathar]

I think Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter at the very least. I don't think the use of deadly force was necessary in this case.

[Kevlar]

It wasn't a self-inflicted wound that caused Martin's death and it was not an accident by any stretch of the imagination. So yeah, it's murder. Just because you empathize with the lighter-skinned thug doesn't mean that you get call it anything other than what it was.

You can't murder someone in self defense. Trayvon should not have went all zulu on some guy just for asking him what he was up to, especially if he wasn't doing anything wrong.

[Zereh]

You can't murder someone in self defense. Trayvon should not have went all zulu on some guy just for asking him what he was up to, especially if he wasn't doing anything wrong.

Someone should have stayed the fuck in his car ~ just like the police told him to do when he made the 911 call. There would be no murder if he would have listened, instead he decided he was the law and initiated a conflict that resulted in death.

[quido]

Zimmerman probably shot him because he couldn't live down getting beat up by a teenager half his size.

[bluntfang]

You can't murder someone in self defense. Trayvon should not have went all zulu on some guy just for asking him what he was up to, especially if he wasn't doing anything wrong.

Was Trayvon not acting in self defense when a man with a gun chased after him?

[Messianic]

Just because you empathize with the lighter-skinned thug doesn't mean that you get call it anything other than what it was.

If you want to call me a racist without knowing a damn thing about me, just come out and say it so you can be discredited. Initially, I sided with Trayvon. Facts changed that. I didn't "empathize" with either one - All I heard was a black kid with skittles was killed by a guy with a gun, and initially it looked like a piece of vigilantism. Again, the facts we have access to changed that. I'm open to further evidence.

And you seem to have a very difficult time with the definition of "murder."

just like the police told him to do when he made the 911 call. There would be no murder if he would have listened, instead he decided he was the law and initiated a conflict that resulted in death.

Can you tell me what exactly he was told by the dispatcher (not the police - that's an interesting error to make if you've actually read the relevant documents) when he made the 911 call? You haven't even read the 911 call or taken the time to look at any of the evidence that will actually be used in trial and you're gonna call this guy a murderer. Do you realize what you're doing when you label someone a murderer? You're saying they themselves either deserve death or life in prison. That's something almost all qualified attorneys disagree with you on. The detectives on the case, back in March, specifically did not try because their consulting prosectors told them there wasn't enough evidence for a manslaughter conviction because it was obvious Martin attacked Zimmerman.

You must be a real genius to be right over all those other people.

And how can you say Zimmerman initiated a conflict? Is talking to someone in public initiating conflict? Because damn, if that's so, I better not go to the circle K on the corner or I might be seen as initiating conflict and therefore forfeiting my right to defend myself. The only evidence we have - even excluding Zimmerman's testimony which is mostly corroborated by witnesses - is that he was attacked and bloodied (That's the police officers who responded and met Zimmerman at the scene), and only fired apparently a single shot into Trayvon Martin.

Have you read the doctor's report regarding Zimmerman's injuries? If not, go do that. We're wasting time if you're going to choose to side with Trayvon just because you like to make snap judgments without the facts and avoid all the obvious problems that are staring you in the face.

How many breakins occurred in his neighborhood prior to that? If you moved in somewhere and were constantly feeling threatened by criminals, you might act differently yourself. 8 burglaries in 14 months. Did you know that?

I wouldn't have done what Zimmerman did because it was dumb. For whatever reason, he confronted the guy who hadn't done anything wrong (yet), just because he was suspicious. But that doesn't change the facts of the scenario, which is that Martin decided to attack Zimmerman (for whatever reason and at whatever potential verbal provocation), broke his nose and apparently beat his head into the ground. Eventually, you attack the wrong person physically, you'll get shot or stabbed.

Martin initiated force - Zimmerman ended it. That doesn't make it murder.

Again, i'm open to new evidence. But everything I see seems to say it was a stupid series of events, but it WAS self defense.

[Messianic]

Was Trayvon not acting in self defense when a man with a gun chased after him?

You mean when he was beating a guy on the ground who had a gun? Yeah, i'm sure he went after that guy with his skittles knowing that dude had a gun. Do your homework.

[Visual]

OJ simpson case was better

[Messianic]

OJ simpson case was better

Chewbacca defense ftw

[Kevlar]

>17 yr old kid chilling in own neighborhood
>creepy mexican who u have never seen before begins to leer at you and follow you
>you walk away
>creepy guy continues to stalk you
>you begin to now run away
>creepy guy now running on foot chasing you as fast as he can, you are scared out of your mind
>eventually stop running
>creepy predator now trying to illegally detain you (also known as kidnapping, a felony offense)
>defend yourself for your very own life
>creepy predator shoots you and kills you

Yeah, now find one witness to corroborate any of that. This was in the early evening in a residential neighborhood. I think a short fat mexican chasing a tall skinny black kid would have attracted a little attention.

[Kruel]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highschool-prep-rally/iona-basketball-recruit-killed-shooting-outside-chicago-house-135200288.html

Wonder if there is going to be protests?

[Clark]

death to Zimmerman

[Kevlar]

"He was our meal ticket".

Love how they think.

[Supreme]

In Texas what Zimmerman did is called self-defense. He was being attacked by another person and legally used his firearm to protect himself. It is going to be hard to prove "murder".

BTW the charges against Zimmerman is bogus and when the dust settles you are going to see Zimmerman with a wrongful prosecution lawsuit against the Florida AG office for not presenting ALL the facts of the case to the grand jury for the "murder" charge.

[Groo]

Someone should have stayed the fuck in his car ~ just like the police told him to do when he made the 911 call. There would be no murder if he would have listened, instead he decided he was the law and initiated a conflict that resulted in death.

I agree. Interesting how so many people seem unable (or unwilling) to grasp this.

[Pico]

wow u mean to tell me that p99, a community known to be filled with bigoted rednecks with the average intelligence of a loaf of cheese, are siding against an innocent black child?

shocked i am shocked

[Groo]

No, I mean people in general. Most of the people posting in this thread get it, by far.

[Supreme]

Kid attacked armed citizen and was shot in self defense.

Seems to be pretty clear cut to me.

[blammo]

Sure glad I don't live in some conservative cowtown with small-minded bigots like the above poster where I'd hear their ignorant, unintelligent comments about a public execution of an innocent child.

[Hollywood]

Kid attacked armed citizen and was shot in self defense.

Seems to be pretty clear cut to me.

Sure glad I don't live in some conservative cowtown with small-minded bigots like the above poster where I'd hear their ignorant, unintelligent comments about a public execution of an innocent child.


Blammo, your comment is so full of fail and malicious fueled ignorance that it's people like you whom carry the crown and title of bigots.

The immediate problem with this case is that it's become a media frenzy that's strayed so far from the evidence that second hand information is becoming concrete for people who have really no idea what's transpired or is developing.

From day one we had opinions before we had facts. We've had teenage kids in schools around the country taking 'time off' to 'grieve' for the loss of some kid they never even met nor do they have any personal stake in the matter as they suffered some similar tragedy. They only share one thing in common, and that is the color of their skin.

Seems to me to get so worked up over something that is genetic and beyond your control, is about as small minded as one can get.

It also exudes racism as the focus is on race.

People who want to get to the bottom of the situation don't care about that, and that's where a lot of the public divide is.

Neither polar opposites are correct because they're skipping over vital information.
But to suggest that one extreme is more appropriate or correct is ridiculous and is why - thank God - that state and federal cases of this magnitude are not treated like the absurd civil law suits that you always read about.

The state only needs to do one thing - prove that George Zimmerman extended his rights under the Stand Your Ground Law - or in short that he chose the wrong method of escaping his attacker.

Read that again - escaping his attacker.

What people seem to ignore, is that the state is not questioning Zimmerman's right to self defense using lethal means, nor is it denying that Zimmerman may have been physically in fear for his life. This is because A ) Zimmerman is the only one that can tell the story of events B ) Witness reports and physical evidence support Zimmerman's case. The state's only angle is to find a way to make it look like Zimmerman DID have other options beyond using a firearm.

Hence why it's second degree murder and not first. If the state was trying Zimmerman as this 'racist hick with a hero complex and a gun' then it would be first degree murder.

This is why they are trying to character assassinate him with the money /bond scandal, the witness 9 molested family member and the push for a racial hatred background profile (performed by the FBI).

They want to establish that Zimmerman's word is shaky, and therefore the gaps in the story (where evidence cannot paint the picture) as told by him, are false which further leads to the suggestion that he's told his version in order to cover up the potential fact that he DID have another option beyond deadly force.

That is what the state is attempting to do.

What people THINK the state is attempting to do, is more or less hang a man for as you said it so eloquently "public execution of an innocent child"

Additionally, if the public would do a bit of research, there's enough information out there now where you can get a strong time line of the events, including aerial shots of the neighborhood that pinpoints where things took place. In accordance with witness reports (the credible ones that is..not the story changers every five minutes) and the statement made by Zimmerman and etc, you start to realize a few things are myths.

Myth 1 :

Zimmerman aggressively pursued Martin.

Reality :

We don't know that for sure, and by the phone recordings if he did, it was for a very short time.
Additionally, the odds of him catching the younger lighter Martin are slim. He may have ran after him, but he wouldn't have caught him, surely Martin knew this.

Myth 2:

After told by 911 operator to not pursue (note the word 'not' instead of 'stop'), Zimmerman did so anyways.

Reality:

Zimmerman as far as we can tell only jogged a short distance, losing sight of Martin and went back to his truck.

Myth 3:

Zimmerman caught up with Martin and assaulted him.

Reality:

As mentioned above, this is highly unlikely physically speaking. And you would have a hard time showing how Zimmerman assaulted him, given Trayvon had very little marks on his body where he was in a defensive state.


Here's how it seems it went down, and why the state has a low chance of pinning the crime of murder.

-Zimmerman arrives at the complex/area and notices a person who he considers suspicious looking based on the person's attire, body language and general activity.
-Trayvon Martin notices that Zimmerman is watching him and makes eye contact.
-Zimmerman calls emergency operations/911 and reports a suspicious person. Shortly after, Martin has gone out of sight briefly. Zimmerman leaves his vehicle and informs them he is trying to get closer to have a better look. 911 dispatch says that is not necessary.
-Zimmerman by this time has lost full sight of Martin and decides to stop the pursuit (phone records show his breathing changed back to normal).
-While returning to his vehicle he is confronted by Martin (while Martin is still on the phone with his girlfriend).
-Words are exchanged by the two and Zimmerman decides to call 911 again. Before he can properly, an altercation/scuffle breaks out - as confirmed by Martin's girlfriend.
:Insert audio and visual witness reports concerning the fight:
-Zimmerman shoots Trayvon Martin at close range.
-Zimmerman not sure he has hit or mortally wounded Martin, asks a bystander to call emergency services.


Heres what I think happened

Zimmerman was on his way to wherever (Target he said?) rolling up in the neighborhood and something caught his eye. He slows down to check it out and stops. Trayvon Martin catches Zimmerman watching him and goes into defensive mode( because that's how kids are raised these days in our society where we point fingers and blame others before blaming ourselves - especially ethnic children who are told they are underprivileged from day one and brought up to think the world owes them something - this changes with each new generation. Back in the day, regardless of anything, young people generally would assume they were in the wrong in this case, wondering why someone was staring at them. Now days, the kids would assume that they aren't doing any wrong and never do any wrong. The person staring must be the one with the problem).

Trayvon carries on walking, but now has a bit of attitude in him, bit of chip on his shoulder. Zimmerman begins to pursue Martin whom is now out of sight, however Martin knows Zimmerman wouldn't be able to catch him in a sprint, he also knows that he can get to his destination/house within half a minute and he'd most likely not see Zimmerman ever again. He's on the phone to his girlfriend talking about it, when really he should be running home. He's telling his girlfriend about it, probably getting worked up that old honky/wetback would dare eyeball him. Dee Dee his girlfriend says for Trayvon to more or less let it go, but he ain't having that, so he's going to show old whitey what's what.

He reapproached the area and confronts Zimmerman, talks some smack to him, and throws a punch. Zimmerman buckles, Martin pounces on him and starts the attack. Zimmerman manages to eventually get some respite from the onslaught and takes the opportune moment to fire his weapon and hope it at least stuns Martin into relinquishing his attack.

Zimmerman is successful and Martin is dead.

The key things to note are that :

Martin could have run, hell he could have walked to his destination and nothing would have happened.
Martin didn't have to go back and confront Zimmerman.
Martin did not have to attack Zimmerman. When he punched him, it was assault, when he took it to the ground it was felony assault and when he slammed Zimmerman's head it was attempted murder.

The reason I find that so many people are trying to defend Trayvon Martin's case is because they fear the reality is Trayvon did this to himself by being the aggressor and it doesn't matter if Zimmerman was walking behind him while heavy breathing and saying 'hey ****** ****** ****** hey little ****** your mother's a whore,' that still does not give Martin the right to physically assault George Zimmerman. So instead they're trying to paint the picture that Zimmerman is lying and could have at least used other means to escape Martin's attacks.

And that's why I said at the beginning about what the state is attempting to do. They realize the evidence is not in their favor.

The short of it is, it's second degree murder, and they need proof beyond a doubt that George had no other way out of his situation.
Since they don't have that it, we will most likely end up with a hung jury, Zimmerman walks. Then both families sue the state of Florida for compensation in civil court.

[theaetatus]

[I]-Zimmerman arrives at the complex/area and notices a person who he considers suspicious looking based on the person's attire, body language and general activity.

Your omission of the most obvious reason for his suspicion casts considerable doubt on the objectivity of your argument.

[Orruar]

Your omission of the most obvious reason for his suspicion casts considerable doubt on the objectivity of your argument.

What reason was that? Walking slowly in the rain?

[Kevlar]

People try to make it out like it Trayvon was innocently walking home with skittles and iced tea or what ever. Truth is he might have been walking home with his stuff and on the way casing some houses or cars to break into. Who is to say he wasn't one of the neighborhood banditos, just wasn't caught in the act.

[SirAlvarex]

The large public outcry put me immediately in Zimmermans corner (If a large percentage of the population believes something to be true, it probably isn't).

Then I got the facts, and I felt more Zimmerman was in the right.

I think the biggest indication so is how the arguments are being made. Those that support Zimmerman (or atleast not Trayvon) present facts and long allegories. Those that support Trayvon say everyone who doesn't is racist. Whether Trayvon was in his right to beat someone up or not, making such a point-blank statement defeats the credibility of the arguer.

However the prosecution must believe Trayvon was in the right. If they don't and they do character assassination to get a conviction they don't believe in, that's actually illegal (see Duke 2006 Lacrosse Scandal). So perhaps there is some evidence that hasn't been presented that proves Zimmerman was wrong.

[Kevlar]

However the prosecution must believe Trayvon was in the right. If they don't and they do character assassination to get a conviction they don't believe in, that's actually illegal (see Duke 2006 Lacrosse Scandal). So perhaps there is some evidence that hasn't been presented that proves Zimmerman was wrong.

The character assassination stems from the liberal media/gun grabber crowd.

[LordFresh]

Your omission of the most obvious reason for his suspicion casts considerable doubt on the objectivity of your argument.

If I saw some kid with his hoodie up in the rain walking outside of my house I would keep an eye on him. If my street had issues with break ins like his does rest assured im not a pussy I would walk outside and call the cops and let the guy know im looking at him.

Reguardless of color of your skin your attire and the general idea that it is dark and raining makes you suspicious. ALSO it is not a crime to be rasist - even if he followed him because he is black wearin a klan uniform. What is a crime is assulting someone that confronts you with just words.

[Orruar]

Reguardless of color of your skin your attire and the general idea that it is dark and raining makes you suspicious. ALSO it is not a crime to be rasist - even if he followed him because he is black wearin a klan uniform. What is a crime is assulting someone that confronts you with just words.

Not only is it not a crime to be racist, but it's questionable whether considering one's race and attempting to make a prediction about their intentions is a bad thing. What we're talking about here is prejudice, and Walter Williams discusses this topic with much more intelligence and wit than I ever could, so here's a video. The relevant part starts at 29:21 and goes for 5 minutes or so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKgHc6bWqZ4&feature=player_detailpage#t=1761s

[Lucky]

Social culture predisposes minorities to criminal behavior. White people listen to emo, black people listen to rap. And music is what influences people to do things according to politicians and reporters.

[visage]

First : The black thug kid had a list of burglaries, theft, and fights. They also found traces of THC in his system. Mind you, it was a low amount ,however it shows he did do drugs that are considered "Illegal". Let's see a person with accounts of breaking the law all over at only age 17. Zimmerman with large lacerations in the back of the head. The black kid ended up with a hurt pinky and shot in the chest... I'm sorry put shit together it isn't difficult. You can sit there and say Zimmerman was a moron. However, I think given his background and aspirations with education , with a wife and etc. It shows he was just trying to do his job well to the point he wanted to be a bit of a hero. Quite frankly anyone can sit there and say what they would've done differently. I for one can imagine thinking clearly 100% to my rational thought , after having my god damn head smashed in to concrete over and over. If you can then power to you. Zimmerman will have to live with that kill for the rest of his life. Given his background I imagine it will cause a shit ton of guilt. As far as the charges go and justice. I can think of way worse stories and incidents that occur in the United stats of America. Than, this idiot punk ass kid flirting with the devil his entire adolescent life. Maybe if the black community rose up and raised their kids and evolved a little faster in the United States we can then see less of these types of things. However , this story isn't anything shocking or terrible. There are far worse stories of black injustices. This isn't one of them at all. Quite frankly I am sympathetic to the parents of Martin, but as far as Zimmerman serving time. I believe it's time served.

End

[Theta]

First : The black thug kid had a list of burglaries, theft, and fights. They also found traces of THC in his system. Mind you, it was a low amount ,however it shows he did do drugs that are considered "Illegal". Let's see a person with accounts of breaking the law all over at only age 17. Zimmerman with large lacerations in the back of the head. The black kid ended up with a hurt pinky and shot in the chest... I'm sorry put shit together it isn't difficult. You can sit there and say Zimmerman was a moron. However, I think given his background and aspirations with education , with a wife and etc. It shows he was just trying to do his job well to the point he wanted to be a bit of a hero. Quite frankly anyone can sit there and say what they would've done differently. I for one can imagine thinking clearly 100% to my rational thought , after having my god damn head smashed in to concrete over and over. If you can then power to you. Zimmerman will have to live with that kill for the rest of his life. Given his background I imagine it will cause a shit ton of guilt. As far as the charges go and justice. I can think of way worse stories and incidents that occur in the United stats of America. Than, this idiot punk ass kid flirting with the devil his entire adolescent life. Maybe if the black community rose up and raised their kids and evolved a little faster in the United States we can then see less of these types of things. However , this story isn't anything shocking or terrible. There are far worse stories of black injustices. This isn't one of them at all. Quite frankly I am sympathetic to the parents of Martin, but as far as Zimmerman serving time. I believe it's time served.

End

Uhh.. Zimmerman also had violent crimes in his past, as well as being sent to anger management for assault of a police officer. Plz do homework b4 racism.

Also, Zimmerman never identified himself as a "neighborhood watch captain." He just approached Martin (who was walking in his own neighborhood), began verbally harassing him, more than likely flashed his gun at Martin who reacted the way that he did.

Please, everyone trying to character assassinate Martin, put yourself in this situation: You're a black youth, approached by a large white guy who's calling at you, not identifying himself in any way whatsoever, you see his gun or he tries to grab you, and you defend yourself.

In this whole situation, Martin was defending himself so much more than Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. Zimmerman was reacting to the self-defense that Martin was enacting. Simply not lawful.

[visage]

Uhh.. Zimmerman also had violent crimes in his past, as well as being sent to anger management for assault of a police officer. Plz do homework b4 racism.

Also, Zimmerman never identified himself as a "neighborhood watch captain." He just approached Martin (who was walking in his own neighborhood), began verbally harassing him, more than likely flashed his gun at Martin who reacted the way that he did.

Please, everyone trying to character assassinate Martin, put yourself in this situation: You're a black youth, approached by a large white guy who's calling at you, not identifying himself in any way whatsoever, you see his gun or he tries to grab you, and you defend yourself.

In this whole situation, Martin was defending himself so much more than Zimmerman was acting in self-defense. Zimmerman was reacting to the self-defense that Martin was enacting. Simply not lawful.


List the violent crimes and do your home work on a 17 year old kid with counts of burglary and theft and assaults. Given the age of Zimmerman 28 now more mature. Given his position and hell even employment. I can profoundly say his rational thought would be more creditable than a 17 year old future convict with no employment. Or any signs of aspirations of than crime and smoking. Think about it here Zimmerman is employed with wife etc. Signs of responsibility. He may had issues in his past , but has time to reconcile them and grow the fuck up. This kid had NONE> Who is to say this kid would've turned out great. Quite frankly your looking at a relevant facts , versus past history. This kids had these crimes recently... So recent you can even put it in comparison to Zimmerman. Get out of town with your care bear logic of self defense. I'm sure this punk ass kid claims self defense every time he stole and started a fight. This is only counting the ones on his own personal record. Lord only knows how much else this kid got into. Kids getting shot is a terrible thing. However, actions and recent and relevant facts show the character of the individual. Show me one positive thing this kid was doing at his age other than going to the store for his mom. I guarantee you the crime will out weight anything of sheer thought of responsibility or rational thinking. This kid was lost , unfortunately was found and called in for the idiot lost boy he was.

[Theta]

List the violent crimes and do your home work on a 17 year old kid with counts of burglary and theft and assaults. Given the age of Zimmerman 28 now more mature. Given his position and hell even employment. I can profoundly say his rational thought would be more creditable than a 17 year old future convict with no employment. Or any signs of aspirations of than crime and smoking. Think about it here Zimmerman is employed with wife etc. Signs of responsibility. He may had issues in his past , but has time to reconcile them and grow the fuck up. This kid had NONE> Who is to say this kid would've turned out great. Quite frankly your looking at a relevant facts , versus past history. This kids had these crimes recently... So recent you can even put it in comparison to Zimmerman. Get out of town with your care bear logic of self defense. I'm sure this punk ass kid claims self defense every time he stole and started a fight. This is only counting the ones on his own personal record. Lord only knows how much else this kid got into. Kids getting shot is a terrible thing. However, actions and recent and relevant facts show the character of the individual. Show me one positive thing this kid was doing at his age other than going to the store for his mom. I guarantee you the crime will out weight anything of sheer thought of responsibility or rational thinking. This kid was lost , unfortunately was found and called in for the idiot lost boy he was.

Ah-- You're a troll.

Final piece of the puzzle. Thanks.

[visage]

Ah-- You're a troll.

Final piece of the puzzle. Thanks.

Good come back. AKA " Hi I want to compare 10 year old history and past with recent history of less than 1 year... and claim the two are comparable" I also want to compare the rational thinking of a unemployed 17 year old with counts of burglary, theft, and assault. With a 28 year old with past incidents , who is employed , has a wife, and aspirations with his recent self." Though I cannot defend my statements because you outlined clearly my own idiotic rational thinking. I will say " Troll". End.

[Kevlar]

Uhh.. Zimmerman also had violent crimes in his past, as well as being sent to anger management for assault of a police officer. Plz do homework b4 racism.


Zimmerman basically defended someone from an out of uniform cop in a bar, and the cop pulled his weight with the badge. That is why there was no conviction.

[Slathar]

This is probably the only subject matter that I will agree with Naez on 100% repeatedly. Applying for my LTC-A this week, even.

sweet, another lunatic with a gun.

[Greegon]

gdamn don't get why this incident gets so much attention, feel like it outraged more people than the dude that shot up the batman theatre. People get shot evvvery dayyyy in chicago practically

[Kevlar]

gdamn don't get why this incident gets so much attention, feel like it outraged more people than the dude that shot up the batman theatre. People get shot evvvery dayyyy in chicago practically

Black off duty cop in Baltimore chased down a kid for throwing rocks at his door, caught him hiding in a bush and strangled him to death.

Wonder why that isn't making national headlines?

Oh yeah the asshole cop was black. Won't see any million man marches for that poor kid.

[Hitchens]

Won't see any million man marches for that poor kid.

RANDALLSTOWN, Md. – A throng of protesters took to the streets to express outrage that an African American teen, accused of beating on an off-duty police officer’s front door and causing damage, died after being chased down and beaten during a fight with the Baltimore County officer.

http://rollingout.com/culture/another-black-teenager-dies-after-fight-with-off-duty-police-officer/

As to why it isn't all over the national media, most likely because neither the police department, the cop's attorney nor the family of the teen killed are interested in talking to them. You need people willing to be a spectacle in order to have a media frenzy.

[Pico]

This is probably the only subject matter that I will agree with Naez on 100% repeatedly. Applying for my LTC-A this week, even.

nice another wade michael page in the making, which sikh temple will u target just curious

[Orruar]

Black off duty cop in Baltimore chased down a kid for throwing rocks at his door, caught him hiding in a bush and strangled him to death.

Wonder why that isn't making national headlines?

Oh yeah the asshole cop was black. Won't see any million man marches for that poor kid.

Or even more directly to the point...

Two black teens savagely beat a white man in the head with a hammer. Happened in Sanford, FL, only miles away from the Trayvon shooting. Happened on March 27, the day after a march in town led by Jesse Jackson, where he gave the usual speech inflaming racial tensions. None of this made the national media. I only knew about it because I live about 15 miles from this whole circus.

http://www.examiner.com/article/two-teens-arrested-for-gruesome-hammer-attack-near-sanford-fl

[Kevlar]

But deyz jus robbin him, dez di-int do it cuz of racial stuffs.

Ya know what I'm saying?

[Orruar]

But deyz jus robbin him, dez di-int do it cuz of racial stuffs.

Ya know what I'm saying?

You're right, that makes it ok.