Raid Rules / FAQ

[Sirken]

Raid Rules / FAQ



Q: If we feel another guild/party is breaking raid rules what actions may we take?
A: You may petition in game and if a staff member is available we will be more than happy to show up and evaluate the situation as it occurs. If a staff member is unavailable then please feel free to submit your petition under petitions/exploits on the forums at www.project1999.org. please be sure to include all relevant fraps & screenshots that you feel build your case. Players are not permitted to take the law into their own hands. You are not batman and two wrongs do not make a right, therefore killstealing or general douchebaggery are not permitted under any circumstances. ever.

Q: What classifies a mob as "Engaged"?
A: A mob is classified as engaged as long as it has aggro on at least one player.

Q: Can we camp raid mobs?
A: The spawn variance prevents guilds from claiming unspawned raid mobs as they don’t know when the mob is due. If you want the mob, then pull and engage the mob, Period.

Q: Both raids got here simultaneously. What do we do?
A: First to Engage.

Q: What rules pertain to raid mobs that are triggered spawns?
A: If a raid mob is triggered to spawn by killing a single mob before it (Example: Statue -> Idol -> Avatar of War), the guild that spawned the mob has 20 minutes to engage it. The mob is open to any other guild on a first to engage basis once the first guild has either wiped or not engaged within the time limit.

Q: What about raid mobs that are spawned by a combination of other mobs?
A: In the case of a raid mob that is spawned by clearing an area (Example: Azarack Island in Plane of Sky), the guild that did the clearing has the same consideration as above; That is, 20 Minutes to engage and 1 attempt. In the case of multiple guilds contributing significantly to the spawn of the mob, the mob is first to engage by any of those guilds.
Just a reminder: If the first guild fails to kill the mob on their first attempt or fails to engage within 20 minutes of the mob's spawntime, the mob's ownership is determind based on the first guild to engage at that point.

Q: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited or occupied?
A: It is against server policy to indefinitely kite, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of bringing it to your raid camp. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stall-kiting of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild, will result in disciplinary actions against the kiter's account, and possibly their raid/guild leadership.

Q: Will the planes be open to everyone?
A: Yes. Please be respectful to your fellow players and respect their space. If there is a guild getting ready to raid Hate for some armor and they start pulling creatures, don't go up there and sit on top of them pulling mobs in their area as well. If Guild A is doing Hate, then perhaps Guild B should be doing Fear. Basically, don't be a douche bag.

Q: What if our raid is disrupted? What if our raid interferes with another raid?
A: You may petition in game and if a staff member is available we will be more than happy to show up and evaluate the situation as it occurs. If a staff member is unavailable then please feel free to submit your petition under petitions/exploits on the forums at www.project1999.org. please be sure to include all relevant fraps & screenshots that you feel build your case. Players are not permitted to take the law into their own hands. You are not batman and two wrongs do not make a right, therefore killstealing or general douchebaggery are not permitted under any circumstances. ever.

Q: How do we report another raid training or KSing?
A: It is the responsibility of the accusers to provide evidence that they were trained. Fraps works. Certain screenshots work. We strongly suggest that you have someone watching your back. Please have only one person, preferably an officer, gather all the required information, and post it in the petition forum. We do not like an entire guild petitioning about the same thing, and doing so will result in the situation being ignored.

Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: While we strive to be as accurate as we can in terms of classic content, this is something that we feel is necessary to keep things running smooth. We believe the spawn variance method promotes both fairness and competition. Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. So on live Nagafen or Vox kills were not always exactly one week apart.

Q: Where can I deposit my tears?
A: As always your tears and crying of favoritism are important to us; for without you we couldn't possibly run things around there. You are the wind beneath my wings. Please direct your tears to the Petition/Exploit Forum or in extreme cases of hissy fits or conspiracy theories, Nilbog's Inbox.

Venril Sathir
Venril Sathir may only be pulled into the larger room adjacent to his spawn point, no further.

Non-Disputable Zones
Zones deemed Non-Disputable will have no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones. Currently the only zone that this applies to is Veeshan's Peak.

[Sirken]

if u have questions ask them and i will answer them. good questions will be added to the FAQ.

trolling, complaining, and shitting up this thread will result in your posts being deleted at the bare minimum.




Added Player Questions:

so i see no mention of 15 on a spawn, was that removed?
15 people on a spawn is stupid. if u want to claim the mob, then engage the mob.


also plane of hate and fear are back to the way they were? pull anything anywhere with kites?
Kiting raid mobs is not ok, Kiting trash is ok. that does not mean training is ok. if you are kiting mobs, be aware of the aggro radius, and do not kite them in ways that will purposely train other players. accidents happen, and we dont want to punish anyone for accidents. The staff will look at all evidence and then the staff (not the players), will decide if the actions were done with malicious intent.


"Q: I've seen guilds engage raid targets with just warrior/cleric teams who can survive until raid forces log in, as well as players pulling FTE on targets before their guild is in the zone, because they know/think their guild can log/zone in before said target arrives at the 'camp' (faydedar being a strong example). Would either of those type of situations count as keeping a mob occupied? I used to see that happen all the time, as being regular engage strategies, but nothing ever said of it as breaking any rule.
any guild takes a chance when they engage with a couple people and then simply hope the rest of the guild logs in, in time to slay the mob. its a very valid, legal, and risky tactic, and will not be punished


This part is outdated - the last few patches did in fact have a full repop, and for about a year patches have (inconsistently) respawned all raid mobs. Although it's a bit unclear it seems that if there's (a) a content patch or (b) scheduled maintenance that brings the server down, all mobs get respawned, assuming there wasn't a patch the day before or something ridiculous like that.
Nilbog says: This is part of my upcoming raid/spawn proposal. I want every patch to zero all respawn timers. If this is integrated, the rules will be rewritten to reflect.


It still seems to me the classic way would promote more competition. I can see the aspect of fairness in relation to variance due to timezone issues resulting in a kill always laying within a comfortable range for certain timezones (could be altered using patch respawns). However, with a set timer that more than 1 or 2 guilds knows about brings forth more true competition and hope outside of a patch/reset for the up and coming guilds to experience certain encounters.

I know nilbog has made jokes about zergs and such prior so it seems some people higher up appreciate the aspect of there being more guilds getting involved like the old days on here where multiple guilds actually competed for 1 target.
Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: While we strive to be as accurate as we can in terms of classic content, this is something that we feel is necessary to keep things running smooth. We believe the spawn variance method promotes both fairness and competition. Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. So on live Nagafen or Vox kills were not always exactly one week apart.


Given that the kiting rule has been overruled with this new GM change I have a couple questions about some recent rule changes.
1) Using Eye of Zomm wall glitch to zone in to target / train zone in? Is this still illegal?
2) Regarding VP raiding: Is using ledge in the picture room to fight dragons still illegal? Currently guilds are not allowed to position a dragon on the ledge in the picture room and fight him there due to vague "pathing exploits." Given the change in GM's, and the changes to the AE in zone (now outdoor zone, walls do not block AE), the ledge no longer offers any strategic PVE advantage during the actual fight encounter. Are we allowed to position dragons there to fight now?
Eccezan - 1) yes still illegal. 2) also still illegal. ill talk to Nilbog and Rogean about it though, and if they feel it should be changed, we will change it.


Thanks for the rules clarification Sirken!
One question I have though, is, what are the rules pertaining to perceived kiting? I.E. Guild A pulls RaidNPC, Guild B feels as if it is not a straight pull so they decide to take the pull.
This has been ongoing behavior that has seen no repercussions except in one recent instance, but all further instances that followed that one have gone unenforced.
As far as I am aware, this is unacceptable behavior. (aka Two wrongs don't make a right - as you mentioned). Even if a guild is kiting, would it not be best to just catch the kite on fraps for GM review rather than allow pull stealing?
A clear statement regarding this behavior would be appreciated. Thanks
You hit the nail on the hit; Two wrongs don’t make a right. I know it shouldn’t be like this, but all top end guilds need a person running fraps because shenanigans seem to occur most often when staff is not around, and it truly, truly helps us. When I see blatant douchebaggery I will obviously suspend for it. But I’m not a nazi either. I have raid experience in EQ, and I understand that sometimes things like FTE can be extremely close, and I understand that things can just happen in the heat of battle, but there’s still a line that shouldn’t be crossed. P99 may not be a PvP server, but it is still a competitive raiding server. And as such, the staff wants to encourage heated, competitive contests between the guilds. We just want those contests decided by dedication and skill instead of garbage and griefing. Losing with class is always better than winning like a douchebag. That being said, kiting raid mobs is not allowed. However, it is not for guildB to decide if guildA is breaking the rules. They are neither judge nor jury. if guildA was caught breaking the rules I would remove the loots and suspend characters that needed it. If it happened a second time I would be forced to punish the guilds leadership for the actions of their members as well as the members involved; consider it P99’s version of a RICO act. If however guildB decided to KillSteal mob I would then remove the loots and punish them for KSing in the same fashion id punish guildA for cheating. Please do not make me be a bad guy. i’m here to make your lives easier, not to make them harder. I’m very easy to talk to, and I’m always willing to discuss situations with players if the need arises.


So, just to clarify, we can claim mobs that are not on a variance (particularly epic mobs, phinny, etc) by waiting at their spawn point? Granted they are pretty much 3-6 man encounters, but just making sure.
Thanks!
to be safe, consider all raid mobs FTE. i personally think dropping 12 people, or 15 people on a spawn point to "claim" a raid mob is the dumbest shit in the entire world. the staff supports heated competition for raid mobs as opposed to who can leave a group of alts afk on a certain spot. not to mention, the logs dont show us that x amount of people were sitting at 'xyz' location.
as i said earlier in this thread, this is the easiest balance between staff being able to enforce, and the players being able to easily understand and follow.


So if your running 50% of a zone in circles and a raid mob adds to that pack is that considered FTE?
if you are kiting a buncha mobs around- that do not include the boss- your okay- then if the boss is picked up on that kite it then needs to be brought to the raid imidiately along with the rest of the kite... or the entire thing needs to be dropped with out it training another guild/group etc.


the only point of clarification would be is then if you can peel said boss off the train and have the kite CC of the rest of the mobs contiune as it was before the boss got cought up in the kite. or do you have to kill the entire train at the time of engagement with the boss.
you can kite trash. just dont train other players with your trash. if i understand correctly, your basically saying.. "what if when my guildie is kiting all the trash in PoF, the Draco accidentally gets caught up in the kiting, what do i do!?!" in that situation, it is the players responsibility to peel Draco off the kite immediately and pull it towards the raid group. if Draco is not pulled immediately to the raid group, then it would have to be considered as kiting a raid mob, and thats against the rules. so while kiting trash mobs is allowed, it can be a dangerous tactic if its not done with precision. don't kite raid mobs.


With the most recent rules for hate/fear having been rescinded what will be the policy on accidental trains and such? Specifically accidents that would negate a competing guilds chance at a target. Also, you said FTE will be the deciding factor for the most part; what about bangbang types of situations where FTE is maybe decided one second apart from a mob spawning? Would loot be awarded to the FTE guild via GM or would the raid with the XP prevail?
like i already said, accidents happen, if u make one, try to make it right. we can see who had first to engage, regardless of how close it is/seems. lets say Trakanon spawns, and GuildA and GuildB move for trak. GuildA attacks and a half second later GuildB attacks, but GuildB does more and gets the loots. in the logs, we will see that GuildA had first to engage, and we will remove the loots from GuildB and give them to GuildA. but KSing can not be catered to, or rewarded.


eye balls to zone in to COH ur raid is still bad right?
indeed. still bad.


I would like to echo the concerns of my honorable colleague as they have not been directly addressed. Example: raid force A (20 TMO 15 enraptured) and raid force B (35 BDA) and raid force C (5 Divinity) and raid force D (10 asgard) are all in Sky when Noble Djorn is about to spawn. Everyone on the server knows when it will spawn and will have their force on island 1.5 waiting for it to spawn at exactly oh let's say 8pm. Everyone engages and kills Noble in 10 seconds of spawning, divinity group loots and scoots. No GM on to determine FTE, so overseer is sitting there. Overseer is a spawned mob that is owned directly by the group that kills Noble as long as they engage within 20 minutes of it spawning. This is a very real and super confusing weekly event based on these new raiding policies. How is this better or any more competitive than the first guild to have 15 members on the spot? At least the first 15 on spawn have to kill teh mob theirselves and not rely on 3 other guilds to dps for them.
Q: What rules pertain to raid mobs that are triggered spawns?
A: If a raid mob is triggered to spawn by killing a single mob before it (Example: Statue -> Idol -> Avatar of War), the guild that spawned the mob has 20 minutes to engage it. The mob is open to any other guild on a first to engage basis once the first guild has either wiped or not engaged within the time limit.
--
unless of course you are implying that none of the guilds know who had FTE on Djorn. in that case, guilds are going to have to do the best they can. like ive said before, im not here to punish people for accidents; i am however here to punish for general douchebaggery.


Oh, I'm all for FTE shouts. My main question isn't fully solved by FTE shouts. I think we all know being the fastest jav in the West is a bit silly when there's no raid present. While those situation are rare, they have occurred. I'm curious to know where Sirken sits on that.
i think it would be a good idea if it wasn't so easy to manipulate, if it didn;t force Rogean and Nilbog to write extra code, and a couple other things. like ive said before, i understand the current system is not perfect, but it honestly is the best way for now.


That begs another question. What about FTE sniping? Both with sufficient force NOT in range to engage (say a 45 man raid on the North Wall, while 2 monks javelin CT while the other force moves in) and with an insufficient force engaging while using another guild to DPS (think 12 man Trak while 35 people from Guild A DPS)
take a log or SS of whos in the zone (/w all zone) and send it in with your petition. once upon a time i was in a guild that was literally seconds away from engaging trak when a monk from a competing guild let fly his javelin. we killed trak, yet the other guild got the loots because they had FTE. and yea, it sucked we didnt get the loots, but i had to tip my hat to that monk. but i mean, i'm not an idiot either. if u show me that GuildA had 35 in zone, and that GuildB had 5 in zone. and that GuildB let fly a javelin (technically gaining FTE), i'm not going to take away GuildAs loots. now if both guilds have sufficient raid forces, that would be a different story. you're going to notice in time that i'm a very big advocate of "common sense" ;)

[arsenalpow]

so i see no mention of 15 on a spawn, was that removed?

[arsenalpow]

also plane of hate and fear are back to the way they were? pull anything anywhere with kites?

[Lazortag]

Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: ... Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. ...

This part is outdated - the last few patches did in fact have a full repop, and for about a year patches have (inconsistently) respawned all raid mobs. Although it's a bit unclear it seems that if there's (a) a content patch or (b) scheduled maintenance that brings the server down, all mobs get respawned, assuming there wasn't a patch the day before or something ridiculous like that.

[nilbog]

This part is outdated - the last few patches did in fact have a full repop, and for about a year patches have (inconsistently) respawned all raid mobs. Although it's a bit unclear it seems that if there's (a) a content patch or (b) scheduled maintenance that brings the server down, all mobs get respawned, assuming there wasn't a patch the day before or something ridiculous like that.

This is part of my upcoming raid/spawn proposal. I want every patch to zero all respawn timers. If this is integrated, the rules will be rewritten to reflect.

[Sirken]

questions updated/answered.


also, as a whole, the staff supports and encourages guilds working things out on their own without staff having to intervene every single time.

[Writ3r]

It still seems to me the classic way would promote more competition. I can see the aspect of fairness in relation to variance due to timezone issues resulting in a kill always laying within a comfortable range for certain timezones (could be altered using patch respawns). However, with a set timer that more than 1 or 2 guilds knows about brings forth more true competition and hope outside of a patch/reset for the up and coming guilds to experience certain encounters.

I know nilbog has made jokes about zergs and such prior so it seems some people higher up appreciate the aspect of there being more guilds getting involved like the old days on here where multiple guilds actually competed for 1 target.

[Sirken]

It still seems to me the classic way would promote more competition. I can see the aspect of fairness in relation to variance due to timezone issues resulting in a kill always laying within a comfortable range for certain timezones (could be altered using patch respawns). However, with a set timer that more than 1 or 2 guilds knows about brings forth more true competition and hope outside of a patch/reset for the up and coming guilds to experience certain encounters.

I know nilbog has made jokes about zergs and such prior so it seems some people higher up appreciate the aspect of there being more guilds getting involved like the old days on here where multiple guilds actually competed for 1 target.

Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: While we strive to be as accurate as we can in terms of classic content, this is something that we feel is necessary to keep things running smooth. We believe the spawn variance method promotes both fairness and competition. Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. So on live Nagafen or Vox kills were not always exactly one week apart.

[getsome]

This is part of my upcoming raid/spawn proposal. I want every patch to zero all respawn timers. If this is integrated, the rules will be rewritten to reflect.

I saw you post about this a month or so ago. maybe less. Is what Sirken posted part of your revamp? And when can we expect the rest?

[Sirken]

I saw you post about this a month or so ago. maybe less. Is what Sirken posted part of your revamp? And when can we expect the rest?
Nilbog could answer this better than i can, but no, these rules do not yet reflect what Nilbog has spoke about. if/when that happens, the rules will be modified to reflect the changes. as far as when to expect it, id imagine this is getting juggled with the million other things on Nilbogs plate.

[Writ3r]

I guess to put it into question format, will there ever be consideration in the future to make that aspect classic again and change/make a few other rules to indeed support it? (Especially with more content adding more variables)

[YendorLootmonkey]

Q: What classifies a mob as "Engaged"?
A: A mob is classified as engaged as long as it has aggro on at least one player.

Q: Both raids got here simultaneously. What do we do?
A: First to Engage.


Not a question about the rules per se, but a question about if we could be provided with the tools needed to determine who had FTE to reduce potential for conflict and so that the playerbase can better police/manage themselves.

As it has been historically impossible to determine who had FTE with near-simultaneous engagements, prox aggro vs. damage aggro, having a mob charm the initial puller and having no one on the aggro list at the time it is re-tagged, etc., the FTE raid rules have largely depended on after-the-fact GM intervention/re-distribution of items after looking at engagement logs.

This is burdensome for the GMs, and forces guilds into a position where they can't disengage from the mob and let the other guild attempt on their own without risking losing loot rights if they did in fact have FTE.

Any updates/thoughts into programming in a FTE shout for raid target mobs? I.e.:

Talendor shouts, "Yendor from Bregan D'Aerth is the first to challenge me... may his death be swift!"

Upon clearing the hate list and returning to seek mode:

Talendor shouts, "I have defeated my enemy... who is next to feel my wrath?!"

Then, all raid forces present know exactly where FTE stands, can back off and let the guild who got FTE attempt the encounter on their own, sink or swim, and no need for after-the-fact GM intervention because it would be clear who had FTE and anyone looting from a force that did not have FTE would be dealt with severe punishment.

Yes, it's not classic, but it would simply tell us all at the time of engagement what the staff has to tell us after-the-fact in the current state in order to resolve FTE disputes.

[Sirken]

I guess to put it into question format, will there ever be consideration in the future to make that aspect classic again and change/make a few other rules to indeed support it? (Especially with more content adding more variables)
i see what you're doing. but heres the problem, i can not predict the future. we believe this is the best, most fair way to do things based on the tools and resources available to us at the present time. if/when things change, a post will be made, and the rules will be modified. until that time there will be no further information available. i apologize for any inconvenience this causes you.

as of now, this is the staff's answer to anything in regards to the spawn variance.

Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: While we strive to be as accurate as we can in terms of classic content, this is something that we feel is necessary to keep things running smooth. We believe the spawn variance method promotes both fairness and competition. Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. So on live Nagafen or Vox kills were not always exactly one week apart.


i consider this question thoroughly answered, and will be ignoring or deleting any future posts on the subject of why theres a spawn variance or anything else surrounding spawn timers.

[Sirken]

yendor, i agree with most everything u posted, and we have discussed different ways of implementing that idea, however, each idea (including yours) has been shot down so far because it would be to easy to manipulate the logs to tell a different story.

right now its a PITA. players know it, staff knows it. when we have a better way, we will use the better way, i assure you. because as much as the players hate waiting for staff to sort all that junk out, the staff hates having to check encounter logs each and every time a mob pops.

please trust me when i say i honestly feel your frustration, and that we are working on it.

[YendorLootmonkey]

yendor, i agree with most everything u posted, and we have discussed different ways of implementing that idea, however, each idea (including yours) has been shot down so far because it would be to easy to manipulate the logs to tell a different story.

I'm not saying the FTE shouts would be in place of encounter logs -- they'd just merely be something the players can use at the time of engage to know who actually had FTE without needing GM involvement after the fact.

You'd still have the encounter logs behind the scenes.

If you catch a guild trying to manipulate logs to tell a different story, and they send in a petition that doesn't match what you have, perma-disband the guild for intentionally trying to manipulate the truth -- make the penalty so severe that it's not worth it to them to try. ;)

[Xadion]

glad most rules have been clarified, I see nothing that is really new, just clarified (training non raid target) the only real change is no more first 15 claim, and that's cool...but FTE socks will still happen I am sure lol.

[achtung]

Thanks for taking the time Sirken.

Would love to see all patches trigger full repop!

[Sirken]

I'm not saying the FTE shouts would be in place of encounter logs -- they'd just merely be something the players can use at the time of engage to know who actually had FTE without needing GM involvement after the fact.

You'd still have the encounter logs behind the scenes.

If you catch a guild trying to manipulate logs to tell a different story, and they send in a petition that doesn't match what you have, perma-disband the guild for intentionally trying to manipulate the truth -- make the penalty so severe that it's not worth it to them to try. ;)

yendor send me a PM if u want to discuss this further. id prefer to keep this thread for questions, not discussions ;)

[Llabak]

Any chance of simulated patch days with full respawns? Those full respawn days are gobs of fun.

[fullmetalcoxman]

He said earlier that he wanted patches to reset all the respawn timers to zero, although why that should be the case I have no idea. If not full respawns, it should at least reset the timer to where it was before the patch.

[Frieza_Prexus]

If we have simulated patch days, a real patch might provide too many repops. Having a real patch reset the timers would off-set the simulated patches, while providing a net increase in raid targets.

[Zeelot]

Thanks for the rules clarification Sirken!

One question I have though, is, what are the rules pertaining to perceived kiting? I.E. Guild A pulls RaidNPC, Guild B feels as if it is not a straight pull so they decide to take the pull.

This has been ongoing behavior that has seen no repercussions except in one recent instance, but all further instances that followed that one have gone unenforced.

As far as I am aware, this is unacceptable behavior. (aka Two wrongs don't make a right - as you mentioned). Even if a guild is kiting, would it not be best to just catch the kite on fraps for GM review rather than allow pull stealing?

A clear statement regarding this behavior would be appreciated. Thanks

[Eccezan]

Given that the kiting rule has been overruled with this new GM change I have a couple questions about some recent rule changes.

1) Using Eye of Zomm wall glitch to zone in to target / train zone in? Is this still illegal?

2) Regarding VP raiding: Is using ledge in the picture room to fight dragons still illegal? Currently guilds are not allowed to position a dragon on the ledge in the picture room and fight him there due to vague "pathing exploits." Given the change in GM's, and the changes to the AE in zone (now outdoor zone, walls do not block AE), the ledge no longer offers any strategic PVE advantage during the actual fight encounter. Are we allowed to position dragons there to fight now?

Eccezan Heds, Officer of The Mystical Order

[Sirken]

patch question people - i dont have much info about the patch respawn stuff. this is more for raid guild interaction so that the staff members dont have to babysit.


Eccezan - 1) yes still illegal. 2) also still illegal. ill talk to Nilbog and Rogean about it though, and if they feel it should be changed, we will change it.

[Sirken]

Thanks for the rules clarification Sirken!

One question I have though, is, what are the rules pertaining to perceived kiting? I.E. Guild A pulls RaidNPC, Guild B feels as if it is not a straight pull so they decide to take the pull.

This has been ongoing behavior that has seen no repercussions except in one recent instance, but all further instances that followed that one have gone unenforced.

As far as I am aware, this is unacceptable behavior. (aka Two wrongs don't make a right - as you mentioned). Even if a guild is kiting, would it not be best to just catch the kite on fraps for GM review rather than allow pull stealing?

A clear statement regarding this behavior would be appreciated. Thanks

You hit the nail on the hit; Two wrongs don’t make a right. I know it shouldn’t be like this, but all top end guilds need a person running fraps because shenanigans seem to occur most often when staff is not around, and it truly, truly helps us. When I see blatant douchebaggery I will obviously suspend for it. But I’m not a nazi either. I have raid experience in EQ, and I understand that sometimes things like FTE can be extremely close, and I understand that things can just happen in the heat of battle, but there’s still a line that shouldn’t be crossed. P99 may not be a PvP server, but it is still a competitive raiding server. And as such, the staff wants to encourage heated, competitive contests between the guilds. We just want those contests decided by dedication and skill instead of garbage and griefing. Losing with class is always better than winning like a douchebag.

That being said, kiting raid mobs is not allowed. However, it is not for guildB to decide if guildA is breaking the rules. They are neither judge nor jury. if guildA was caught breaking the rules I would remove the loots and suspend characters that needed it. If it happened a second time I would be forced to punish the guilds leadership for the actions of their members as well as the members involved; consider it P99’s version of a RICO act. If however guildB decided to KillSteal mob I would then remove the loots and punish them for KSing in the same fashion id punish guildA for cheating.

Please do not make me be a bad guy. i’m here to make your lives easier, not to make them harder. I’m very easy to talk to, and I’m always willing to discuss situations with players if the need arises.

I hope I have thoroughly answered your questions.

Sincerely,
Sirken

[Alarti0001]

You hit the nail on the hit; Two wrongs don’t make a right. I know it shouldn’t be like this, but all top end guilds need a person running fraps because shenanigans seem to occur most often when staff is not around, and it truly, truly helps us. When I see blatant douchebaggery I will obviously suspend for it. But I’m not a nazi either. I have raid experience in EQ, and I understand that sometimes things like FTE can be extremely close, and I understand that things can just happen in the heat of battle, but there’s still a line that shouldn’t be crossed. P99 may not be a PvP server, but it is still a competitive raiding server. And as such, the staff wants to encourage heated, competitive contests between the guilds. We just want those contests decided by dedication and skill instead of garbage and griefing. Losing with class is always better than winning like a douchebag.

That being said, kiting raid mobs is not allowed. However, it is not for guildB to decide if guildA is breaking the rules. They are neither judge nor jury. if guildA was caught breaking the rules I would remove the loots and suspend characters that needed it. If it happened a second time I would be forced to punish the guilds leadership for the actions of their members as well as the members involved; consider it P99’s version of a RICO act. If however guildB decided to KillSteal mob I would then remove the loots and punish them for KSing in the same fashion id punish guildA for cheating.

Please do not make me be a bad guy. i’m here to make your lives easier, not to make them harder. I’m very easy to talk to, and I’m always willing to discuss situations with players if the need arises.

I hope I have thoroughly answered your questions.

Sincerely,
Sirken

<3 sirken!

[nilbog]

He said earlier that he wanted patches to reset all the respawn timers to zero, although why that should be the case I have no idea. If not full respawns, it should at least reset the timer to where it was before the patch.

Zeroing the timers means they would all spawn on a server restart. O.o

If Lord Nagafen has 45000 seconds till he would spawn, changing it to 0 would mean he spawns immediately.

Every classic live patch respawned npcs. This has been discussed at length on the forums. I agree with this and given the option, I like classic solutions.

[nilbog]

I'm about 99.9% sure that Nilbog's solution will be more than just codifying what already happens. Also out of respect for Sirken this really isn't the thread to qq about this.

Correct.

[fullmetalcoxman]

Zeroing the timers means they would all spawn on a server restart. O.o

If Lord Nagafen has 45000 seconds till he would spawn, changing it to 0 would mean he spawns immediately.

Every classic live patch respawned npcs. This has been discussed at length on the forums. I agree with this and given the option, I like classic solutions.

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood. Thanks for the explanation. :)

[Autotune]

Off subject: Nilbog is totally padding his post count ^^^^^

On subject: If there is no more 15 on spawn claims for raid targets, what will be done about the late window FTE snags? Generally speaking, when two guilds haven't been able to determine who had first claim and they both socked the spawn together it didn't turn out well. The 15 claim solved problems in the way of not creating any drama. I personally did not like it, but anyone can see what it did. Instead of taking it completely out, I think it needed to be refined as it often kept the guilds from breaking rules against each other (accidentally or not) and it kept GM involvement to a minimum, now that it's gone I don't see how those 2 things won't become more common.

So I guess my real question is, now that the raid target claiming is gone, what will be done about the increased heat between guilds on late window target spawns? Any chance to implement ways to determine FTE or will there be more rules later on to address this?

[sanluen]

Q: Can we camp raid mobs?
A: The spawn variance prevents guilds from claiming unspawned raid mobs as they don’t know when the mob is due. If you want the mob, then pull and engage the mob, Period.

So, just to clarify, we can claim mobs that are not on a variance (particularly epic mobs, phinny, etc) by waiting at their spawn point? Granted they are pretty much 3-6 man encounters, but just making sure.

Thanks!

[Sirken]

So, just to clarify, we can claim mobs that are not on a variance (particularly epic mobs, phinny, etc) by waiting at their spawn point? Granted they are pretty much 3-6 man encounters, but just making sure.
Thanks!

to be safe, consider all raid mobs FTE. i personally think dropping 12 people, or 15 people on a spawn point to "claim" a raid mob is the dumbest shit in the entire world. the staff supports heated competition for raid mobs as opposed to who can leave a group of alts afk on a certain spot. not to mention, the logs dont show us that x amount of people were sitting at 'xyz' location.

as i said earlier in this thread, this is the easiest balance between staff being able to enforce, and the players being able to easily understand and follow.

[Jjlent]

he's saying no raid mob can be claimed, be FTE and kill mob to claim it

[Joroz]

You hit the nail on the hit; Two wrongs don’t make a right. I know it shouldn’t be like this, but all top end guilds need a person running fraps because shenanigans seem to occur most often when staff is not around, and it truly, truly helps us. When I see blatant douchebaggery I will obviously suspend for it. But I’m not a nazi either. I have raid experience in EQ, and I understand that sometimes things like FTE can be extremely close, and I understand that things can just happen in the heat of battle, but there’s still a line that shouldn’t be crossed. P99 may not be a PvP server, but it is still a competitive raiding server. And as such, the staff wants to encourage heated, competitive contests between the guilds. We just want those contests decided by dedication and skill instead of garbage and griefing. Losing with class is always better than winning like a douchebag.

That being said, kiting raid mobs is not allowed. However, it is not for guildB to decide if guildA is breaking the rules. They are neither judge nor jury. if guildA was caught breaking the rules I would remove the loots and suspend characters that needed it. If it happened a second time I would be forced to punish the guilds leadership for the actions of their members as well as the members involved; consider it P99’s version of a RICO act. If however guildB decided to KillSteal mob I would then remove the loots and punish them for KSing in the same fashion id punish guildA for cheating.

Please do not make me be a bad guy. i’m here to make your lives easier, not to make them harder. I’m very easy to talk to, and I’m always willing to discuss situations with players if the need arises.

I hope I have thoroughly answered your questions.

Sincerely,
Sirken

So if your running 50% of a zone in circles and a raid mob adds to that pack is that considered FTE?

[Xadion]

So if your running 50% of a zone in circles and a raid mob adds to that pack is that considered FTE?

I would think, if you are kiting a buncha mobs around- that do not include the boss- your okay- then if the boss is picked up on that kite it then needs to be brought to the raid imidiately along with the rest of the kite... or the entire thing needs to be dropped with out it training another guild/group etc

the only point of clarification would be is then if you can peel said boss off the train and have the kite CC of the rest of the mobs contiune as it was before the boss got cought up in the kite. or do you have to kill the entire train at the time of engagement with the boss.

[Sirken]

So if your running 50% of a zone in circles and a raid mob adds to that pack is that considered FTE?

I would think, if you are kiting a buncha mobs around- that do not include the boss- your okay- then if the boss is picked up on that kite it then needs to be brought to the raid imidiately along with the rest of the kite... or the entire thing needs to be dropped with out it training another guild/group etc

Xadion is correct. like i said, i'm not here to punish people for accidents. but if you make a mistake, you need to try and make it right. lead by example ;)

[Sirken]

the only point of clarification would be is then if you can peel said boss off the train and have the kite CC of the rest of the mobs contiune as it was before the boss got cought up in the kite. or do you have to kill the entire train at the time of engagement with the boss.

if i understand correctly, your basically saying.. "what if when my guildie is kiting all the trash in PoF, the Draco accidentally gets caught up in the kiting, what do i do!?!"

in that situation, it is the players responsibility to peel Draco off the kite immediately and pull it towards the raid group. if Draco is not pulled immediately to the raid group, then it would have to be considered as kiting a raid mob, and thats against the rules.

so while kiting trash mobs is allowed, it can be a dangerous tactic if its not done with precision.

don't kite raid mobs.

[arsenalpow]

With the most recent rules for hate/fear having been rescinded what will be the policy on accidental trains and such? Specifically accidents that would negate a competing guilds chance at a target.

Also, you said FTE will be the deciding factor for the most part; what about bangbang types of situations where FTE is maybe decided one second apart from a mob spawning? Would loot be awarded to the FTE guild via GM or would the raid with the XP prevail?

[Sirken]

With the most recent rules for hate/fear having been rescinded what will be the policy on accidental trains and such? Specifically accidents that would negate a competing guilds chance at a target.

Also, you said FTE will be the deciding factor for the most part; what about bangbang types of situations where FTE is maybe decided one second apart from a mob spawning? Would loot be awarded to the FTE guild via GM or would the raid with the XP prevail?

like i already said, accidents happen, if u make one, try to make it right.

we can see who had first to engage, regardless of how close it is/seems. lets say Trakanon spawns, and GuildA and GuildB move for trak. GuildA attacks and a half second later GuildB attacks, but GuildB does more and gets the loots. in the logs, we will see that GuildA had first to engage, and we will remove the loots from GuildB and give them to GuildA.

but KSing can not be catered to, or rewarded.

[Shinko]

eye balls to zone in to COH ur raid is still bad right?

[Sirken]

eye balls to zone in to COH ur raid is still bad right?

indeed. still bad.

[Xadion]

if i understand correctly, your basically saying.. "what if when my guildie is kiting all the trash in PoF, the Draco accidentally gets caught up in the kiting, what do i do!?!"

in that situation, it is the players responsibility to peel Draco off the kite immediately and pull it towards the raid group. if Draco is not pulled immediately to the raid group, then it would have to be considered as kiting a raid mob, and thats against the rules.

so while kiting trash mobs is allowed, it can be a dangerous tactic if its not done with precision.

don't kite raid mobs.

Aye, that is indeed how I undersood- just wanting clarification- thank you.

[Metallikus]

On subject: If there is no more 15 on spawn claims for raid targets, what will be done about the late window FTE snags? Generally speaking, when two guilds haven't been able to determine who had first claim and they both socked the spawn together it didn't turn out well. The 15 claim solved problems in the way of not creating any drama. I personally did not like it, but anyone can see what it did. Instead of taking it completely out, I think it needed to be refined as it often kept the guilds from breaking rules against each other (accidentally or not) and it kept GM involvement to a minimum, now that it's gone I don't see how those 2 things won't become more common.

So I guess my real question is, now that the raid target claiming is gone, what will be done about the increased heat between guilds on late window target spawns? Any chance to implement ways to determine FTE or will there be more rules later on to address this?

I would like to echo the concerns of my honorable colleague as they have not been directly addressed.

Example: raid force A (20 TMO 15 enraptured) and raid force B (35 BDA) and raid force C (5 Divinity) and raid force D (10 asgard) are all in Sky when Noble Djorn is about to spawn. Everyone on the server knows when it will spawn and will have their force on island 1.5 waiting for it to spawn at exactly oh let's say 8pm. Everyone engages and kills Noble in 10 seconds of spawning, divinity group loots and scoots. No GM on to determine FTE, so overseer is sitting there. Overseer is a spawned mob that is owned directly by the group that kills Noble as long as they engage within 20 minutes of it spawning.

This is a very real and super confusing weekly event based on these new raiding policies. How is this better or any more competitive than the first guild to have 15 members on the spot? At least the first 15 on spawn have to kill teh mob theirselves and not rely on 3 other guilds to dps for them.

[Frieza_Prexus]

That begs another question. What about FTE sniping? Both with sufficient force NOT in range to engage (say a 45 man raid on the North Wall, while 2 monks javelin CT while the other force moves in) and with an insufficient force engaging while using another guild to DPS (think 12 man Trak while 35 people from Guild A DPS)

[YendorLootmonkey]

No GM on to determine FTE, so overseer is sitting there.

Mobs shouting who had FTE would solve that. Just sayin... :) I have a PM in to Sirken (as he requested) about recommending that devs add that mechanic to relieve GM burden/intervention in a questionable FTE situation.

That begs another question. What about FTE sniping? Both with sufficient force NOT in range to engage (say a 45 man raid on the North Wall, while 2 monks javelin CT while the other force moves in) and with an insufficient force engaging while using another guild to DPS (think 12 man Trak while 35 people from Guild A DPS)

Would solve that too..............

[Frieza_Prexus]

Oh, I'm all for FTE shouts. My main question isn't fully solved by FTE shouts. I think we all know being the fastest jav in the West is a bit silly when there's no raid present. While those situation are rare, they have occurred. I'm curious to know where Sirken sits on that.

[Rogean]

fastest jav in the West


ha....

[Sirken]

I would like to echo the concerns of my honorable colleague as they have not been directly addressed.

Example: raid force A (20 TMO 15 enraptured) and raid force B (35 BDA) and raid force C (5 Divinity) and raid force D (10 asgard) are all in Sky when Noble Djorn is about to spawn. Everyone on the server knows when it will spawn and will have their force on island 1.5 waiting for it to spawn at exactly oh let's say 8pm. Everyone engages and kills Noble in 10 seconds of spawning, divinity group loots and scoots. No GM on to determine FTE, so overseer is sitting there. Overseer is a spawned mob that is owned directly by the group that kills Noble as long as they engage within 20 minutes of it spawning.

This is a very real and super confusing weekly event based on these new raiding policies. How is this better or any more competitive than the first guild to have 15 members on the spot? At least the first 15 on spawn have to kill teh mob theirselves and not rely on 3 other guilds to dps for them.

Q: What rules pertain to raid mobs that are triggered spawns?
A: If a raid mob is triggered to spawn by killing a single mob before it (Example: Statue -> Idol -> Avatar of War), the guild that spawned the mob has 20 minutes to engage it. The mob is open to any other guild on a first to engage basis once the first guild has either wiped or not engaged within the time limit.

--

unless of course you are implying that none of the guilds know who had FTE on Djorn. in that case, guilds are going to have to do the best they can. like ive said before, im not here to punish people for accidents; i am however here to punish for general douchebaggery.

[Sirken]

Oh, I'm all for FTE shouts. My main question isn't fully solved by FTE shouts. I think we all know being the fastest jav in the West is a bit silly when there's no raid present. While those situation are rare, they have occurred. I'm curious to know where Sirken sits on that.
i think it would be a good idea if it wasn't so easy to manipulate, if it didn;t force Rogean and Nilbog to write extra code, and a couple other things. like ive said before, i understand the current system is not perfect, but it honestly is the best way for now.

[Sirken]

That begs another question. What about FTE sniping? Both with sufficient force NOT in range to engage (say a 45 man raid on the North Wall, while 2 monks javelin CT while the other force moves in) and with an insufficient force engaging while using another guild to DPS (think 12 man Trak while 35 people from Guild A DPS)

take a log or SS of whos in the zone (/w all zone) and send it in with your petition. once upon a time i was in a guild that was literally seconds away from engaging trak when a monk from a competing guild let fly his javelin. we killed trak, yet the other guild got the loots because they had FTE. and yea, it sucked we didnt get the loots, but i had to tip my hat to that monk.

but i mean, i'm not an idiot either. if u show me that GuildA had 35 in zone, and that GuildB had 5 in zone. and that GuildB let fly a javelin (technically gaining FTE), i'm not going to take away GuildAs loots. now if both guilds have sufficient raid forces, that would be a different story.

you're going to notice in time that i'm a very big advocate of "common sense" ;)

[Sirken]

*****WORDS*****

if your post was deleted, it was because your post was not a question, or was off topic of this thread. feel free to have discussions on these topics in other threads.

but also please respect that i am trying to keep this thread clean, and simple to read and / or find information.


thanks!
-Sirks


PS- patch question people - i dont have much info about the patch respawn stuff. this is more for raid guild interaction so that the staff members dont have to babysit.

PPS- Alternate FTE methods people - i love and appreciate all these opinions from each of you. please understand that this is not a thread to discuss FTE or methods to improve FTE. When Rogean comes to me bragging about having extra free time, i will gladly speak to him more about adding code to make mobs do things, however you have to remember that maybe we already thought of your idea but didn't do it because it was easily exploitable.

either way,
<3

[Jjlent]

i agree with you, the whole mob shouting to zone who had FTE is extremely easy to manipulate and abuse

[Adrieth]

Q: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited or occupied?
A: It is against server policy to indefinitely kite, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of bringing it to your raid camp. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stall-kiting of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild, will result in disciplinary actions against the kiter's account, and possibly their raid/guild leadership.

Just for my own clarification/idiocy: If there is no competition (no other raid force present), is the above rule still valid? For example, if I zone in with a large raid force and no one else appears to be contesting it, can I kite a raid mob around for several minutes while my force zones in and prepares for the kill?

[Sirken]

Just for my own clarification/idiocy: If there is no competition (no other raid force present), is the above rule still valid? For example, if I zone in with a large raid force and no one else appears to be contesting it, can I kite a raid mob around for several minutes while my force zones in and prepares for the kill?

the reason we dont want raid mob kiting is because it's generally used to cockblock guilds that were ready to engage. if no one else is in zone, you obviously aren't blocking them. however, its still a dangerous tactic, because if u are kiting a raid mob, and then GuildB starts zoning in, they can and most likely will report you.

to be safe, dont kite raid mobs.

[Nirgon]

Sirken for GM president. Full powers etc.

Been saying it a while.

He's not a push over, but he's also not a psycho.

He's friendly but not a babbler.

He has strong experience doing it before.

He actually knows the game.

[Lostprophets]

Are you able to sit on top of multiple targets now now? (I don't see this on the list anymore or even questioned about)

I remember that this rule was made when IB (I believe..unsure if it was them or not..too long ago to remember) decided to camp on inny's spawn point and ct's spawn point (or whatever...more than one dragon/god). In result, they were forced to choose which one they wanted more and leave the other.

[Ele]

Are you able to sit on top of multiple targets now now? (I don't see this on the list anymore or even questioned about)

I remember that this rule was made when IB (I believe..unsure if it was them or not..too long ago to remember) decided to camp on inny's spawn point and ct's spawn point (or whatever...more than one dragon/god). In result, they were forced to choose which one they wanted more and leave the other.

You can sit people where ever you want. FTE is all that matters now.

to be safe, consider all raid mobs FTE. i personally think dropping 12 people, or 15 people on a spawn point to "claim" a raid mob is the dumbest shit in the entire world. the staff supports heated competition for raid mobs as opposed to who can leave a group of alts afk on a certain spot. not to mention, the logs dont show us that x amount of people were sitting at 'xyz' location.

as i said earlier in this thread, this is the easiest balance between staff being able to enforce, and the players being able to easily understand and follow.

[Autotune]

XP = Loot!

[Ephi]

A note about pulling a raid mob:

It is not against raid rules, although highly frowned upon, to pull a raid mob to a camp where your raid is *going* to be, even if they aren't there yet (because they are either logging in or running to that area).

Consider Faydedar as a decent example. Most guilds tag Faydedar before the full raid force is present at Ogre island. Because it takes 5+ minutes to get Faydedar from spawn to ogre island, that gives your raid 5+ minutes to be ready. The same is true for Severilous, who takes about 4 minutes on average to pull from spawn to TT (where he's often fought).

You take an enormous risk in doing this, in 2 ways. One, if you don't have enough of a raid force present, you essentially knock down the mobs health a bit, wipe, and you've just pulled it and made it easier for your competition. Second, if we find that you intentionally pulled the mob to an area and you never intended to have enough to kill it, especially if you pull it within aggro distance of another raid force and die, you'll be hit with raid disruption and/or kiting a raid mob.

It's a big risk, and we don't really like when guilds do it. But not currently against the raid rules.

[Grahm]

Raid Rules / FAQQ: Where can I deposit my tears?

A: As always your tears and crying of favoritism are important to us; for without you we couldn't possibly run things around there. You are the wind beneath my wings. Please direct your tears to the Petition/Exploit Forum or in extreme cases of hissy fits or conspiracy theories, Nilbog's Inbox.

[Xigor]

So, how does this actually work in game. For instance Monday night FV is raiding hate, with 28 people in the zone and 2 trackers from other guilds. Just before moving to the fountain near maestro room. Maestro pops. Within a few minutes BDA and TMO are both porting people into hate. A minute later Maestro along with a host of golems and other trash go rushing past the fountain and current FV raid. The ensuing train kills nearly everyone and a GM shows up and starts rezzing. After people have received GM rezzes mobs continue to be pulled killing people who haven't even looted yet. Eventually TMO downs maestro at zone in.

Several questions arise from what occurred in this event:

1 Is it ever okay to pull a raid mob past another raid force? (High chance of training, also is this kiting?)

2 Once a GM starts rezzing people is okay to pull to where people are receiving rezzes? (How do we know your not taking the GM to rez to re-engage the mob you legitimately wiped on?)

3 If guild A is the only one with sufficient force in zone when a mob spawns. Guild B ports up and gets FTE on the mob but dies causing guild A to wipe. Guild C then arrives to finish off the named spawn. Is it a legitimate kill for guild C who got the mob because guild B trained it past guild A wiping them both? Thus denying guild A their shot at the mob?

4 At what point, if ever, does presence count any more. If there are 28 members of a guild raiding a zone when a mob (that can be downed with 2 groups or less) spawns; is it ever reasonable to think, "They have 28 people in the zone already, but we can roll up with 8-10 people and FTE without disrupting the raid"?

[Metallikus]

So, how does this actually work in game. For instance Monday night FV is raiding hate, with 28 people in the zone and 2 trackers from other guilds. Just before moving to the fountain near maestro room. Maestro pops. Within a few minutes BDA and TMO are both porting people into hate. A minute later Maestro along with a host of golems and other trash go rushing past the fountain and current FV raid. The ensuing train kills nearly everyone and a GM shows up and starts rezzing. After people have received GM rezzes mobs continue to be pulled killing people who haven't even looted yet. Eventually TMO downs maestro at zone in.

Several questions arise from what occurred in this event:

1 Is it ever okay to pull a raid mob past another raid force? (High chance of training, also is this kiting?)

2 Once a GM starts rezzing people is okay to pull to where people are receiving rezzes? (How do we know your not taking the GM to rez to re-engage the mob you legitimately wiped on?)

3 If guild A is the only one with sufficient force in zone when a mob spawns. Guild B ports up and gets FTE on the mob but dies causing guild A to wipe. Guild C then arrives to finish off the named spawn. Is it a legitimate kill for guild C who got the mob because guild B trained it past guild A wiping them both? Thus denying guild A their shot at the mob?

4 At what point, if ever, does presence count any more. If there are 28 members of a guild raiding a zone when a mob (that can be downed with 2 groups or less) spawns; is it ever reasonable to think, "They have 28 people in the zone already, but we can roll up with 8-10 people and FTE without disrupting the raid"?

This is what is horribly wrong with straight FTE ruleset. There is no consideration for other raids present. There should be a play nice policy for the raid scene, but Rogaen hasn't written it yet. It has remained completely blank for many moons.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2651


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4) PvE Server Rules

Under Construction. Will include Play Nice Policy and etc.
__________________



That section has been under construction since 04-08-2012, 06:58 AM. Not sure what he's waiting for.

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

So since there isn't a play nice policy or whatever, you tell your guild its perfectly fine to just snipe a mob from a guild then pull that mob and the mobs around it on top of the guild that was already fighting there? If you guys wanted maestro you should have leap frogged FV. Instead sanluen pulled a massive train on top of us while we were fighting mobs in the doorway. On top of that he most likely goes unpunished because we don't normally contest and don't bother with fraps or anything like that. I really think BDAs twisted take on the server rules is worse for the server than TMOs raid scene domination ever was...

[Ele]

I really think BDAs twisted take on the server rules is worse for the server than TMOs raid scene domination ever was...

[Metallikus]

Im appauled to say the least. Whereas I cannot speak on what actually happened for your Maestro scenario, I thought the post was hypothetical because this is the first time I've heard that story, I was not there. But for you to say BDA's take on server rules is worse for the server than TMO, I'm just flabbergasted.

In a world where TMO has taken a dump on BDA/VD/FE or whoever has ever tried to compete with them, we have endured more bullshit than you can possibly imagine. When one of the logs of shit touches your guild for the first time, you call foul on BDA, the decent guys who are willing to negotiate any raid dispute and share content, but not call foul on TMO, the guys that steamroll and refuse to consider anyone else.

I'm almost done championing for a better server. TMO somehow gets mad props and praise for being a selfish, ruthless, cutthroat, lootwhoring machine that takes everything there is and sells the scraps to the hungry chicks.

[India]

Im appauled to say the least. Whereas I cannot speak on what actually happened for your Maestro scenario, I thought the post was hypothetical because this is the first time I've heard that story, I was not there. But for you to say BDA's take on server rules is worse for the server than TMO, I'm just flabbergasted.

In a world where TMO has taken a dump on BDA/VD/FE or whoever has ever tried to compete with them, we have endured more bullshit than you can possibly imagine. When one of the logs of shit touches your guild for the first time, you call foul on BDA, the decent guys who are willing to negotiate any raid dispute and share content, .....

LOL oh please!! There are quite a few threads that state otherwise...

[Alarti0001]

LOL oh please!! There are quite a few threads that state otherwise...

Many Many threads... from more guilds than TMO. BDA/FE are the prime complainers about TMO. Everyone complains abotu BDA.

Metallikus just has hate in his heart.

[quido]

Are we really trolling this thread? Come on now.

[falkun]

So since there isn't a play nice policy or whatever, you tell your guild its perfectly fine to just snipe a mob from a guild then pull that mob and the mobs around it on top of the guild that was already fighting there? If you guys wanted maestro you should have leap frogged FV. Instead sanluen pulled a massive train on top of us while we were fighting mobs in the doorway. On top of that he most likely goes unpunished because we don't normally contest and don't bother with fraps or anything like that. I really think BDAs twisted take on the server rules is worse for the server than TMOs raid scene domination ever was...
To answer your question: Training another raid is defined in another server rule:
Q: How do we report another raid training or KSing?
A: It is the responsibility of the accusers to provide evidence that they were trained. Fraps works. Certain screenshots work. We strongly suggest that you have someone watching your back. Please have only one person, preferably an officer, gather all the required information, and post it in the petition forum. We do not like an entire guild petitioning about the same thing, and doing so will result in the situation being ignored.
But as long as you cannot prove training, sniping Maestro is fair game because he's not a triggered spawn. Leapfrogging is completely legal, and the onus is on the plaintiff to provide proof of training. I'm not trying to point fingers or deflect anything, merely providing "the law".

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

I know deajay, I said leapfrogging would have been fine and I also pointed out that nothing will happen since we don't run fraps. Flawless victory is not trying to get tangled in the raid mess just yet so we don't keep fraps running. Also anthrax BDA has not been willing to negotiate in any of the previous encounters my guild has had with them. For instance BDA rolls up on a group of FV that is sitting on tranix spawn point and you guys say you're going to challenge us for FTE on a non raid mob. And feed me bullshit about how TMO has used FTE to walk all over you guys in the raid scene. Now this training in hate. Maybe the majority frowns on BDA because you guys are playing dirty against the smaller guilds that TMO usually doesn't mess with. I hate the raid scene and have fought along side you plenty for change but you and your guild keep on taking the crappy rules and using them in the wrong way against the people that usually get to avoid the TMO roflstomping.

[pharmakos]

Q: Can we camp raid mobs?
A: The spawn variance prevents guilds from claiming unspawned raid mobs as they don’t know when the mob is due. If you want the mob, then pull and engage the mob, Period.

variance apparently hasn't stopped anyone from camping raid mobs. they just sit there for longer.