PvP exp loss

[SearyxTZ]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr65dsxK2v1qappgt.jpg

[Loli Pops]

http://images.stuffofawesome.com/lobster-dog-transcends-omnipotence-1313006403-3808.jpg

[SamwiseBanned]

xp loss upon pvp death was classic (sz), in fact I remember it being more but maybe thats because I was a newb back then.

[Tr0llb0rn]

true, SZ was the server that has xp bonus (like us) and xp loss on death (like us)

Keep it Classic.

And it prevents retards throwing themselves at people over and over again just out of spite. PvP loss needs sting, that xp loss is stingy

[Tradesonred]

Fact is: We'll have a dead server sooner than later if this isnt changed, no new blood is going to stick around with the only pvp to be got will be to get their asses handed to them by twinks.

At least if they dont lose xp in the process, they MIGHT stick around.

I will fuck around with Kunark a bit, but theres no way im going to stay even mid term if its the same thing than classic with nobody challenging Nihilum end game because of xp loss, and high chances it will be this way if xp loss stays.

[Nirgon]

Not as stingy as losing a piece diamond jewelry cuz you're a derpy fuck nuts AFK cuz you're used to no pvp.

[Loli Pops]

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6wcb6GPSD1rnw821o1_250.jpg

[Tr0llb0rn]

Not as stingy as losing a piece diamond jewelry cuz you're a derpy fuck nuts AFK cuz you're used to no pvp.

^^^

only people who want item loot are people who dont play and wizards.

so true

[SearyxTZ]

And it prevents retards throwing themselves at people over and over again just out of spite. PvP loss needs sting, that xp loss is stingy

It encourages retards to throw themselves at someone over and over at their bind point.

Yet it's not significant enough to prevent bind rushing especially from anyone who is max level. Does half a level matter when you're already at the cap? No.


It offers no reward for the killer. I do not care if I've "taken" exp from someone else in killing them. I get nothing. Offering additional penalty with no reward is really strange. Both item and coin loot do not follow the same principle.

[Tr0llb0rn]

It offers no reward for the killer. I do not care if I've "taken" exp from someone else in killing them. I get nothing. Offering additional penalty with no reward is really strange. Both item and coin loot do not follow the same principle.


Items represent a time investment, coin represents a time investment, and so does XP.

The reward is costing your enemy some time, setting them back. Making them just that much weaker and (hopefully) you that much stronger as you maintain your xp flow, plat farm, item camp,etc. (whatever you were doing/pvping over).

Its the Classic Way.

[Tradesonred]

Yet it's not significant enough to prevent bind rushing especially from anyone who is max level. Does half a level matter when you're already at the cap? No.


It does matter. I would quantify my PVE/PVP proportions as such: 10%/90%

Meaning how much time i would spend on each if it was my call.

Well, im 50 and i dont even fucking pvp alot unless there is something like equal chances because i dont want to regrind that xp back and throw off the PVE/PVP ratio.

Of course it means i get bored because not only I am judging every encounter like "is this attempt worth risking the xp loss", everybody does so pvp happens alot less than it would without it.

Result: quit the server because pvp isnt happening as much as id like to and im bored as fuck.

Yes, you are right trollborn, it prevents "bind rushing" aka pvp from happening alot.

But i dont honestly count on the devs to act on this, its been explained in and out for months and months.

So you dont have anything to worry about Trollborn, you sitting in a raid zone for months with 30 other PVEers undisputed, shielded from pvp with sheer numbers, even if it means playing on a server with a peak population of 50, is probably not in jeopardy.

[Lazortag]

SZ wasn't a classic server, so its policies should have no bearing on red99. I'd just like to say this on the second page so that it gets ignored throughout this entire thread, like most sensible things that are posted on this forum.

Oh, and if exp loss is a deterrent to bind rushing, then you're basically admitting that it's a deterrent to pvp. You can't say "oh there's barely any exp loss, no one will get frustrated when they die a lot" at the same time as saying "the exp loss will deter people from bind rushing". I don't see why we need an additional punishment to dying in pvp, when you already lose all mana, get ported to your bindpoint, lose all coin, lose your camp, and (most of the time) get shamed publicly in ooc. If people are frustrated by slow exp, then they're going to be frustrated by exp loss in pvp, however minor. I'm not saying it's rational, but it's a fact that it discourages pvp and frustrates players.

edit: I also agree that it makes bind camping too effective, since you can induce exp loss on afk players over and over again. This isn't meant to be a hardcore, SZ-style server where people get de-leveled 15 times and we don't even bat an eyelid.

[SearyxTZ]

Items represent a time investment, coin represents a time investment, and so does XP.

The reward is costing your enemy some time, setting them back. Making them just that much weaker and (hopefully) you that much stronger as you maintain your xp flow, plat farm, item camp,etc. (whatever you were doing/pvping over).


No, dude, the reward is getting an item or getting coin.

You don't get exp for killing someone, for the obvious (exploitable) reasons. So we are left with half of the equation and it leaving a sour taste for most players. It's fairly important to include high reward alongside harsher penalties. One without the other never works too well.

[Tradesonred]

edit: I also agree that it makes bind camping too effective, since you can induce exp loss on afk players over and over again. This isn't meant to be a hardcore, SZ-style server where people get de-leveled 15 times and we don't even bat an eyelid.

It also makes griefing for twinks inclined toward this retardedly powerful vs anyone who is starting out on the server. Although with the faster xp 1-15 id say it doesnt matter that much but seriously with the kind of gameplay to be had here usually starting out (solo mostly, naked noob seeing pvp will be usually him biting the dust to a twink) any xp loss in pvp is too much.

[SearyxTZ]

Yeah it is offset some by the exp boost they're putting in. I don't actually care about this all that much, although I'm still having trouble understanding why some players actually like having it in.


Maybe it does reduce bind rushing, but it also reduces pvp in general + introduces some griefing possibilities. There has to be a better solution for bind rushing that doesn't have as many negative side effects.

[Zallar]

Initially the server had you respawn with a full mana bar. I think that made the case for XP loss.

That was changed and now you respawn with no mana. I think this prevents bind rushing.

Melee's aren't usually an issue with bind rushing since they have to run back from a city. If it truely is an issue, have them respawn with 20% health.

I don't see a reason to keep XP loss in. I do believe there would be more PvP without XP loss.

[Dullah]

With the removal of mana upon respawn, I agree, exp loss became unnecessary. They could actually reduce your hp to 30% too so that it prevents bind rushing even more, if it already wasn't enough deterrent.

I don't know how it will effect us in kunark, but if its percentage based, I'd say it has to go. Up till now, the loss of exp was like two dark blue kills, which was nothing, but leveling to 50 was easy. If you lose 3% of level 54, thats like 30 minutes of exp, and would be brutal.

[Rushmore]

I voted no but I like how it could possibly deter someone from bind rushing.

[Tr0llb0rn]

I voted no because I feel there should be more sting to pvp. the Minor xp loss does this.

Another added benefit is it creates the need to sometimes get out into the world and xp, to regain the minor loss built up over time. This inturn leads to more pvp as you put yourself out in the world grinding,etc.

[Clark]

is that right

[Tradesonred]

Another added benefit is it creates the need to sometimes get out into the world and xp, to regain the minor loss built up over time. This inturn leads to more pvp as you put yourself out in the world grinding,etc.

Lol @ your "benefit". Youd be out there pvping anyway.

[Tradesonred]

Another reason why to kill xp loss in pvp is that it would slow gear progression. Since we probably wont ever have item loot, it means people on the server will never, ever lose that gear edge.

We should make getting gear harder than just sitting in a raid zone uncontested for months and let them get their gear difference always bigger and bigger.

[Dullah]

Yes, the people who won rights to the zone should clearly be punished.

[Znif]

all gear should be farmed in CTF

[Rushmore]

Another reason why to kill xp loss in pvp is that it would slow gear progression. Since we probably wont ever have item loot, it means people on the server will never, ever lose that gear edge.

We should make getting gear harder than just sitting in a raid zone uncontested for months and let them get their gear difference always bigger and bigger.

WTF is this? Stop being a coward and do something about it! Contest them! You on food stamps too bro? Jesus....

[nilbog]

gear should be farmed in CTF

rly though?

http://i45.tinypic.com/2z8caph.jpg

[Znif]

nilbog confirmed knight-champion

[Cars]

Fact is: We'll have a dead server sooner than later if this isnt changed, no new blood is going to stick around with the only pvp to be got will be to get their asses handed to them by twinks.

At least if they dont lose xp in the process, they MIGHT stick around.

I will fuck around with Kunark a bit, but theres no way im going to stay even mid term if its the same thing than classic with nobody challenging Nihilum end game because of xp loss, and high chances it will be this way if xp loss stays.

I am brand new to PvP, I have been merc'd quite a few times and the xp loss doesnt bother me at all. Start taking my items and I will quit

[Tradesonred]

WTF is this? Stop being a coward and do something about it! Contest them! You on food stamps too bro? Jesus....

lol i was in the only guild (FF) that even attempted to try, with holo. Trust me on this, even the most dedicated pvpers dont wanna deal with that xp loss shit.

When they stopped trying, i joined nihilum cuz there was nothing else to do (coupled with the racism in FF vent)

I joined Nihi cuz i never had raided on live so i figured why not experience something new.

It was something new allrite, sitting all nite in fear night after night with no one, ever, zoning in to contest us. Quit not long after that, bored to tears.

Im in your guild btw, and i anticipate the moment where morale will drop because no one is willing to take the xp loss challenging Nihilum anymore, and thats when ill be quitting for good, after giving fun pvp one last shot on this server.

[Tr0llb0rn]

I am brand new to PvP, I have been merc'd quite a few times and the xp loss doesnt bother me at all. Start taking my items and I will quit

tradesonred, please read this quote again from a brand new pvp player.

The xp loss is trivial.

You are worried about nihilum (or whoever) farming raid zones for gear edge? then STFU and do something about it.

I repeat: Even new players to the server think the xp loss is trivial, you are just full of excuses.

[Dullah]

Not true trollborn, exp loss is a serious problem when you're ultra bad.

[Rushmore]

We should make getting gear harder than just sitting in a raid zone uncontested for months and let them get their gear difference always bigger and bigger.

Maybe I misunderstood what you mean't. The best players, the best team, doesn't always win! (Or maybe they do) But if you're number #1 then your number #1! If you want to be on top then you have to take it from who's on top! No need to change the rules...Just go get it! Like you said sitting in fear uncontested is boring! I don't mean to be so harsh but I'm just tired of seeing people cry and complain when the only solution if it matters that much is to go WIN! The difference in losing and winning in any aspect of life is if you can take a loss and get back up and go at it again! If Vae Victis or anyone for that matter is going to beat Nihilium they need to be prepared to lose. But isn't that what makes this fun?

[Tradesonred]

tradesonred, please read this quote again from a brand new pvp player.

The xp loss is trivial.

You are worried about nihilum (or whoever) farming raid zones for gear edge? then STFU and do something about it.

I repeat: Even new players to the server think the xp loss is trivial, you are just full of excuses.

Im not worried, i know nobody will challenge you unless they zerg back to close to your numbers, and thats not likely to happen.

Even if they did, wed have the same problem, one zerg guild strangleholding raid zones forever with no contest.

I dont even care anymore, i know what will happen, ill just have my fun for a month and quit when the box dies again. Just would rather box stay alive, pvp would happen more and i could stick around cuz im having fun.

[Rushmore]

Im not worried, i know nobody will challenge you unless they zerg back to close to your numbers, and thats not likely to happen.

Even if they did, wed have the same problem, one zerg guild strangleholding raid zones forever with no contest.

I dont even care anymore, i know what will happen, ill just have my fun for a month and quit when the box dies again. Just would rather box stay alive, pvp would happen more and i could stick around cuz im having fun.

That's not the attitude. Would love to have a conversation with you in Mumble or whatever in the future! I'll be around! 1st goal is to get as many to 50 as possible. So people with hundred alts need to focus on one toon and help others get there first!

[Tradesonred]

Maybe I misunderstood what you mean't. The best players, the best team, doesn't always win! (Or maybe they do) But if you're number #1 then your number #1! If you want to be on top then you have to take it from who's on top! No need to change the rules...Just go get it! Like you said sitting in fear uncontested is boring! I don't mean to be so harsh but I'm just tired of seeing people cry and complain when the only solution if it matters that much is to go WIN! The difference in losing and winning in any aspect of life is if you can take a loss and get back up and go at it again! If Vae Victis or anyone for that matter is going to beat Nihilium they need to be prepared to lose. But isn't that what makes this fun?

Thats my whole point, nobody will bother challenging them, trust me ive been there. FF basically do nothing but pvp, talk alot of shit and they didnt want to go in and challenge nihilum cuz its pointless. You cant win a war of attrition with xp pvp loss.

Without xp loss, you could go after Nihilum say 15 to 30, focus fire the worst players and make em log first. Then try to move in the main group 15 to 25. But with xp loss the time you have to spend getting all taht xp back makes it that nobody tries.

I will try trust me, but also trust me, history will repeat itself morale will drop and nobody will challenge nihi if xp loss stays.

[Rushmore]

Thats my whole point, nobody will bother challenging them, trust me ive been there. FF basically do nothing but pvp, talk alot of shit and they didnt want to go in and challenge nihilum cuz its pointless. You cant win a war of attrition with xp pvp loss.

Without xp loss, you could go after Nihilum say 15 to 30, focus fire the worst players and make em log first. Then try to move in the main group 15 to 25. But with xp loss the time you have to spend getting all taht xp back makes it that nobody tries.

I will try trust me, but also trust me, history will repeat itself morale will drop and nobody will challenge nihi if xp loss stays.

No one stays on top forever.

[heartbrand]

The issue isn't xp loss it's that most people who play on this server seem to be here so they can raid classic content and don't really care much about the pvp aspect of the server. No one will be able to contest nihilum here unless somehow this pop breaks 200+. Not happening.

[nilbog]

Thats my whole point, nobody will bother challenging them, trust me ive been there. FF basically do nothing but pvp, talk alot of shit and they didnt want to go in and challenge nihilum cuz its pointless. You cant win a war of attrition with xp pvp loss.

Without xp loss, you could go after Nihilum say 15 to 30, focus fire the worst players and make em log first. Then try to move in the main group 15 to 25. But with xp loss the time you have to spend getting all taht xp back makes it that nobody tries.

I will try trust me, but also trust me, history will repeat itself morale will drop and nobody will challenge nihi if xp loss stays.

Oh item loot. Sweet, sweet item loot. If a guild wants to roll around with nice droppables, they should run the risk of them being lootable.

[heartbrand]

Nothing has changed here from what I've seen. It's still the same guild that has literally almost every single level 50 on the server in it, a second guild that's trying to zerg up that doesn't really have any cohesion or leadership (uprising 2.0), the inevitable mass exodus of many people who either quit or join nihilum, etc. etc. On this server you have really only two choices. Join nihilum and farm pixels or make a druid or wiz and port around ganking people. Neither sounds too fun to me.

Boxing would make this server so much more fun. It would provide new guilds a chance to do raids they cant do, provide less incentive to zerg here, create more groups, encourage people who are PLing others to continue doing so since they can put their alt in it. Dunno.

edit: I hope I'm wrong and I'm trying to help out and level people toss some items give ports, but I don't think I am.

[Znif]

Nothing has changed here from what I've seen. It's still the same guild that has literally almost every single level 50 on the server in it, a second guild that's trying to zerg up that doesn't really have any cohesion or leadership (uprising 2.0), the inevitable mass exodus of many people who either quit or join nihilum, etc. etc. On this server you have really only two choices. Join nihilum and farm pixels or make a druid or wiz and port around ganking people. Neither sounds too fun to me.

edit: I hope I'm wrong and I'm trying to help out and level people toss some items give ports, but I don't think I am.

you might be right or you might be wrong but should be a fun month atleast!

[heartbrand]

you might be right or you might be wrong but should be a fun month atleast!

ya I won't deny regardless of the long term prospects of the server which to me still seem dim if you're here for mass guild v guild pvp, the initial kunark rush will provide some fun pvp for a while.

[Graahle]

To be honest I feel like the server is really making a turn for the better. Sure one Guild is firmly entrenched and has been for a while, but that presents an opportunity to either nut up, show some fortitude and take what you want, or be a bitch, not put out and be swept under the rug.

Motivation is inarguably on the rise right now. If that same mentality continues to rise then everything will fall into place and there will be some great times to be had on Red.

You get out what you put in

[Rushmore]

Oh item loot. Sweet, sweet item loot. If a guild wants to roll around with nice droppables, they should run the risk of them being lootable.

Nilbog thank you for your hard work. I don't expect you to listen to me. But take it from someone who loves loves the Day Z game atm. Item loot is the absolute worst thing thing you can do for this server! Please stop now.

Now if you could code the server so that everything was droppable and that once you equipped a piece of gear that gear was always perma stuck on your toon to that slot then by all means make it item loot. (meaning it was stuck on you but if you died someone could loot it)

Otherwise its a server of 99% of the server always running around naked and avoiding pvp. We want to encourage PVP! As more people have said ...even people that like Item loot it's just a terrible idea.

Back to DAY Z its a great game but it's shelf life is very very short.

[nilbog]

Item loot is the absolute worst thing thing you can do for this server! Please stop now.


It's okay. I've stated that since the server is already running and guilds have been created, I am neither in favor of teams, nor item loot at this time. It's too late. However, some things could be contestable at this point because people would have formed together to farm certain guilds of items.

People are afraid of item loot. /comfort

I played on Rallos Zek as a warrior.

[SearyxTZ]

Nildog would you consider a guild size cap + GM enforcement against circumventing it (ie: creating a second guild)?

Heartbrand does bring up a good point there. That could easily overshadow a lot of the good that gets done with Kunark and the other stuff being implemented, if we get into another scenario where there's one high-end guild that is 5x bigger than other guilds (or is literally 50% of the concurrent population).

[Rushmore]

Nildog would you consider a guild size cap + GM enforcement against circumventing it (ie: creating a second guild)?

Heartbrand does bring up a good point there. That could easily overshadow a lot of the good that gets done with Kunark and the other stuff being implemented, if we get into another scenario where there's one high-end guild that is 5x bigger than other guilds (or is literally 50% of the concurrent population).

Although I would agree with you Searyx guild cap isn't an option. Most guilds that want to overpopulate are insecure and want to protect themselves. Let them! Less QQ more PewPew.

If you and some more hall of famers would come back we can do this easily.

[Tradesonred]

The issue isn't xp loss it's that most people who play on this server seem to be here so they can raid classic content and don't really care much about the pvp aspect of the server. No one will be able to contest nihilum here unless somehow this pop breaks 200+. Not happening.

Well its part of the problem. Without xp loss in pvp people would try alot more to force em to pvp.

But ive been talking in voicechat with guildies about this, and theyve conviced me open world bosses might make it so that zerging matters less, i dont know well see.

[Tr0llb0rn]

To be honest I feel like the server is really making a turn for the better. Sure one Guild is firmly entrenched and has been for a while, but that presents an opportunity to either nut up, show some fortitude and take what you want, or be a bitch, not put out and be swept under the rug.

Motivation is inarguably on the rise right now. If that same mentality continues to rise then everything will fall into place and there will be some great times to be had on Red.

You get out what you put in

Good post, Heartbrand, please read this again.

re: item loot... One guild is in full no drop lusterous/hate/fear armor, everyone else is the one thats going to be lootable. Horrible idea

[Tr0llb0rn]

Nildog would you consider a guild size cap + GM enforcement against circumventing it (ie: creating a second guild)?

Heartbrand does bring up a good point there. That could easily overshadow a lot of the good that gets done with Kunark and the other stuff being implemented, if we get into another scenario where there's one high-end guild that is 5x bigger than other guilds (or is literally 50% of the concurrent population).

lol , this is EQ the sandbox, you can't "code in" who people are going to cooperate with.

Why dont you ask Nihilum instead to rachet down their recruitment and greatly increase their app requirements, stemming the flow in that direction? This is not a troll, and my sources tell me there is a movement within Nihilum to do just that.

Or are you too proud to ask?

[Tr0llb0rn]

Without xp loss in pvp people would try alot more to force em to pvp.


PLEASE stfu about this, it is a complete non-issue to every single person who has EVER made a toon on this server, except you.

I mean 100 percent complete non issue.

[Tradesonred]

PLEASE stfu about this, it is a complete non-issue to every single person who has EVER made a toon on this server, except you.

I mean 100 percent complete non issue.

Youre a non-issue

See how bad he wants this to stay? Hes getting desperate now, like: "NOBODY EVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT XP LOSS IN PVP BEING BAD, EVER!"

In a thread wheres theres a poll with 25 peeps saying they want it removed.

[heartbrand]

Good post, Heartbrand, please read this again.

re: item loot... One guild is in full no drop lusterous/hate/fear armor, everyone else is the one thats going to be lootable. Horrible idea

I'm a realist not an idealist. It's easy to join this server 8 months in and go ra ra ra shish kabob boom boom we gonna beat the big boys, it's an entirely differently thing to make it happen. All I'm saying is from what I've seen, I don't believe the status quo will be changing, but I will dick around nonetheless and hopefully there's some fun PVP.

[SearyxTZ]

lol , this is EQ the sandbox, you can't "code in" who people are going to cooperate with.


Sure you can. You set it to a number (say, 50). Then if they go to make <NihilumTwo>, you discipline as you would any other GM-enforced rule.

People asked Nihilum to trim the fat off their zerg for months. They usually responded with "but what if Holocaust comes back and tries to out-recruit us again?".The solution isn't asking one specific guild, and this isn't limited to Nihilum.

The concept of winning-via-quantity is just bad for any server's long-term sustainability. I don't want Kunark to become another race of who can recruit the most level 60 guys and win by proxy of size.

[Swampfeet]

^

Not gonna work, just a design flaw in open world MMO's in general.

Can't really fix it.

[SearyxTZ]

You know, I'd propose a player-governed mandate for this if I actually trusted this community enough to pull it off.

Back on Tallon Zek we had some of that. For example there were informal LNS rules created by the player community. People didn't always adhere to them, but breaking them meant you were effectively blacklisted by the majority.


This server always needed that but never had the maturity to pull it off. It's impossible for me to imagine Holocaust and Nihilum agreeing to anything (or paying any mind to the scattered small guilds / casuals).

[Tr0llb0rn]

84 on right now, and only 13 of those are Nihilum.

Will you log in and stand with/support the masses SearyxTZ?

They are waiting.

They are in there right now, needing leadership, guidence, tips to level, protection from RPKs, all the things that build a team.

They are waiting.

[Lazortag]

I think most people will publicly say that exp loss is not a big deal, because you lose such a small amount of exp. But really bad players who level very slowly will be frustrated by it. These are also the same people who are least likely to admit that exp loss frustrates them. It's a non-classic annoyance that has no purpose that isn't already fulfilled by policies we already have in place. Please just remove it, clearly no one in this thread has given good arguments for it.

[Tr0llb0rn]

I think most people will publicly say that exp loss is not a big deal, because you lose such a small amount of exp. But really bad players who level very slowly will be frustrated by it. These are also the same people who are least likely to admit that exp loss frustrates them. It's a non-classic annoyance that has no purpose that isn't already fulfilled by policies we already have in place. Please just remove it, clearly no one in this thread has given good arguments for it.

Its a tool to stop or discourage certain classes from chain griefing.

Like bards bound at the fire pots running back to your xp zone over and over again naked to dispell your charm, snare your kite or whatever.....

Other examples too.

Its needed.

[Lazortag]

Its a tool to stop or discourage certain classes from chain griefing.

Like bards bound at the fire pots running back to your xp zone over and over again naked to dispell your charm, snare your kite or whatever.....

Other examples too.

Its needed.

Chain griefing happens even more with exp loss when people are at their bind points and get bind camped. Also, your situation of a Bard that somehow got a locket of escape and bound himself at the pots (something which maybe a handful of bards on the whole server will have the privilege of experiencing) is not only hilariously unlikely, but contradictory - if he's running back to your zone "over and over again", then that means you're killing him, because how else would he be at his bind point? This wasn't a problem on Live, it won't be a problem here, and if it is, deal with it using pvp.

[Swampfeet]

Agree fuck exp loss

[Tr0llb0rn]

Chain griefing happens even more with exp loss when people are at their bind points and get bind camped. Also, your situation of a Bard that somehow got a locket of escape and bound himself at the pots (something which maybe a handful of bards on the whole server will have the privilege of experiencing) is not only hilariously unlikely, but contradictory - if he's running back to your zone "over and over again", then that means you're killing him, because how else would he be at his bind point? This wasn't a problem on Live, it won't be a problem here, and if it is, deal with it using pvp.

What about the bard chain griefing the quading wiz/druids in TD itself? What recourse do the quaders have? Nothing, except get griefed all day and have the bard laugh even when they waste mana to kill him.

Your solution to this was always that you respawn without mana in pvp death, well this does not effect the bard.

Every class needs to have skin in the pvp game. The only universal skin that covers all bases is.... the xp bar.

So the current system must remain.

[heartbrand]

Agree 100% with lazortag. Doesn't matter, this will get removed, either now or later when the masses complain on the boards when they lose 3% in level 54 and need to spend another 45 minutes grinding it back, only to get PKed again, and again. The grief caused by exp loss at the higher levels is infinitely higher than the grief that can be created by some hypothetical naked bard.

[Dullah]

Sure you can. You set it to a number (say, 50). Then if they go to make <NihilumTwo>, you discipline as you would any other GM-enforced rule.

People asked Nihilum to trim the fat off their zerg for months. They usually responded with "but what if Holocaust comes back and tries to out-recruit us again?".The solution isn't asking one specific guild, and this isn't limited to Nihilum.

The concept of winning-via-quantity is just bad for any server's long-term sustainability. I don't want Kunark to become another race of who can recruit the most level 60 guys and win by proxy of size.
We raided with less than 20 for the last 4 months. Even when the pop was 100+, we were still raiding with our numbers in the 20s.

You'd be better off putting a restriction on how hardcore people in Nihilum can be and how often they must change their poopsocks. The core of Nihilum play more seriously than anyone in the rival guilds, and thats what it all boils down to. Most of them leveled to 50 in a matter of weeks, and have multiple 50s alts. They play harder, longer and more frequently. They play to win. Creating a mechanic to prevent like-minded players from joining each other in an MMO is a farce.

[Lazortag]

What about the bard chain griefing the quading wiz/druids in TD itself? What recourse do the quaders have? Nothing, except get griefed all day and have the bard laugh even when they waste mana to kill him.

Your solution to this was always that you respawn without mana in pvp death, well this does not effect the bard.

Every class needs to have skin in the pvp game. The only universal skin that covers all bases is.... the xp bar.

So the current system must remain.

Typically we don't mold policy around extremely unlikely situations that will affect only a small number of players on the server. You would need a locket in the first few days of kunark opening to be able to bind a Bard in TD (either that or a dark elf SK with a ring of the dead). How is exp loss going to be helpful for the wizard in this situation, unless he kills the Bard 10 times or something? How would a single wizard even have the mana pool to do that? Instead of inventing totally unrealistic scenarios where pvp exp loss is a good thing, why not focus on the overwhelming majority of scenarios where it's bad? The benefits are minor, the harms are huge, it needs to go.

edit: as for the point about nihilum being a zerg and how it apparently ruins the server, this is hogwash. Many people joined nilly because they saw it as an alternative to the racist loudmouths and griefers in holo and FF. If you don't want one guild to dominate, present an alternative guild for the players to join that isn't centered around griefing people and alienating your potential applicant pool.

[SearyxTZ]

We raided with less than 20 for the last 4 months. Even when the pop was 100+, we were still raiding with our numbers in the 20s.

You'd be better off putting a restriction on how hardcore people in Nihilum can be and how often they must change their poopsocks. The core of Nihilum play more seriously than anyone in the rival guilds, and thats what it all boils down to. Most of them leveled to 50 in a matter of weeks, and have multiple 50s alts. They play harder, longer and more frequently. They play to win. Creating a mechanic to prevent like-minded players from joining each other in an MMO is a farce.

Nihilum was regularly 2-3x the size of any competing guilds (usually "too many players to list") when I was checking them with /who, and there is a screenshot of 50 Nihilum being online at once. They were bigger than almost every guild I can remember on the classic Zek servers, despite that we are all playing on a server that is 10% of the size.

Capping or regulating size is not a "farce". It is a potential solution to a big problem.

In most competitive team-based environments, it is a requirement to have even numbers on opposing sides. Do you see any sports being played with uneven numbers on two sides? No. How about competitive RTS games? Nope. FPS games? No.

EQ is not so structured and the variable guild sizes are part of what makes it interesting, but I am telling you guys right now that if history repeats itself and we get any guild that is 3 times bigger than the others, or the two guilds at the top get into another recruitment war, this will sink just like it did before. This box needs lots of guilds competing. Small to medium sized guilds. Not one gigantic guild that is telling everyone else "too bad so sad make your own zerg and try to out-recruit us".

[mindsculptor]

there are hard to resolve problems with roster limits. if the guild really wants to use numbers then they just use 2 tags, even if you are able to use gms to deter this sort of behavior guild recruiting and attendance requirements start to have to become really onerous if you want your guild to compete.

I dont really want to see raiding turn into how it is on blue where guilds raid trakanon with over 50 people. raiding with a massive army takes anything interesting out of the raid itself. I just don't know an elegant solution to this issue.

I think a possible solution is that if 2 guilds get pretty close in raid viability/numbers they could mutually agree to a recruiting hault. Nihilum's roster is viable on their website already and a publicly posted roster is a good way for guilds to keep each other honest in such an agreement. Even without agree to an outright suspension of recruiting, guilds could agree to monthly quota or something along those lines. Obviously this solution has its problems, the main one being both guilds have to be in a position that they would agree to it. Enforcement, alts, etc are also problems.

I certainly agree with the spirit of trying to avoid outright win via numbers behavior, but i will say that right now its hard to say Nihilum is a zerg guild. They do much of the content they currently raid with bare minimum numbers to actually succeed. I was not around in the past to speak to their former presence nor can I speak to what they will do in the future, but certainly i can understand the fear of a numbers race because there is a strong incentive to do so when the competition gets close.

[bamzal]

this server caters to zergs and there is no skill required in pvp. doomed from the start. Null - fix resists. What makes you think that you can add a custom mechanic into the server when everyone else on the project is trying to make this classic.

[SamwiseBanned]

I don't blame Nihilum as much as I blame the players. It has been the same story for a long time, server finally gets a new poop socker, they rush to 50, join Nihilum. I am not sure if its just my gamer mentality of playing for a challenge but I can't understand the reasoning behind joining the biggest/most powerful guild on a pvp server. Newer players need to think about whats more important, best in slot or a healthy competitive server.

[Dullah]

edit: as for the point about nihilum being a zerg and how it apparently ruins the server, this is hogwash. Many people joined nilly because they saw it as an alternative to the racist loudmouths and griefers in holo and FF. If you don't want one guild to dominate, present an alternative guild for the players to join that isn't centered around griefing people and alienating your potential applicant pool.

^see this

Said it dozens of times, but its good for someone else to say it so they can't write it off as easily.

Nihilum was regularly 2-3x the size of any competing guilds (usually "too many players to list") when I was checking them with /who, and there is a screenshot of 50 Nihilum being online at once. They were bigger than almost every guild I can remember on the classic Zek servers, despite that we are all playing on a server that is 10% of the size.

Capping or regulating size is not a "farce". It is a potential solution to a big problem.

In most competitive team-based environments, it is a requirement to have even numbers on opposing sides. Do you see any sports being played with uneven numbers on two sides? No. How about competitive RTS games? Nope. FPS games? No.


Three things:

1) You don't take 5 guys to a 10v10 sporting event. EQ requires certain numbers to do certain things. When people first start hitting 50, it requires 30-40 to do dragons. Nihilum had only what they needed to be successful in the game. After early sol b battles (where Holo offered the server loot to help fight Nihilum), we seldom had as many as 30 on. In fear, it was 20+ holo versus 20+ Nihilum. Except when we batphone for CT we almost never saw more than 30 online. Those are exceptions. Inductive reasoning does not win debates.

2) Server population. There needs to be a healthy enough population to have 3 or 4 Nihilum guilds that are capable of doing content. The fact that there hasn't been, does make it hard for those wanting to compete. If others guilds "don't care about pve" (bs), thats their choice. You won't stop a raid guild with a gank squad. Trying to have new rules written that prevent players from playing EQ just so you can have a daily BotB tournament is selfish. This is not counterstrike with swords. (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80607)

3) You accomplish 1 & 2 by not alienating the population with senseless griefing (see quote at top).

[heartbrand]

I don't blame Nihilum as much as I blame the players. It has been the same story for a long time, server finally gets a new poop socker, they rush to 50, join Nihilum. I am not sure if its just my gamer mentality of playing for a challenge but I can't understand the reasoning behind joining the biggest/most powerful guild on a pvp server. Newer players need to think about whats more important, best in slot or a healthy competitive server.

The issue is more than the number of members they have it's that they have almost every single level 50 on the server. Seriously, you'd be hard pressed to make a list longer than six people who are active level 50s and not in nihilum or a nihilum alt.

As far as griefing, have we really forgotten nihilum was a guild founded by someone who shamelessly exploited game mechanics to grief in PVP? In nihilum vent I heard plenty of racist language. Their own recruiting leader took the game so seriously he spammed my name and address in global ooc. Natural would chain train people in guk, fallen would go to newbie zones and ks mobs so people couldn't level up, tror ported newbies to tox. Have you read ooc lately? It's just a bunch of nihilum players spamming repeatedly. I certainly wouldn't want to play here if I was a newb reading ooc.

People join nihilum because they are farming raid content and they want more pixels. It's not rocket science. When I asked plenty of people it's always the same response: "I just want to get geared" or "I just want to get my epic" it's not "nihilum is a guild of gentlemen built on solid moral values" though I'm sure destin, the same guy who didnt play on this server in the opening months but tries to tell us "facts" from then, will tell us every member joined nihilum because it's a beacon of peace and love.

Edit: I'm sure there's a couple of holier-than-thou's in nihilum who feel they are on higher moral ground being there, but this is the minority.

[AffEcT]

So you guys wanna remove the only hard coded conscience?
Go Blue Go! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ugkg9RePc&feature=youtu.be&t=32)

[Dullah]

I started on the 5th or 6th week of r99 - as usual heartbrand full of shit (still batting 1000 on dishonest posts). Server started Nov. 18th.
http://i.imgur.com/E1tSQ.png

More inductive reasoning, attempting to take some exception to over throw a rule. So, the guy who can't tell the truth to save his life, who was in two guilds filled with unsavory characters, rules 2% of Nihilum players to be bad according to his standards (lol) for something they once may (or may not) have done without surrounding circumstances.

Par for the course.

Have someone read this to you.
edit: as for the point about nihilum being a zerg and how it apparently ruins the server, this is hogwash. Many people joined nilly because they saw it as an alternative to the racist loudmouths and griefers in holo and FF. If you don't want one guild to dominate, present an alternative guild for the players to join that isn't centered around griefing people and alienating your potential applicant pool.

[heartbrand]

Although Destin may have been rolled December 27th (consequently already very late into the server's development and shortly before the holo ban, so you already aren't an authority on what was happening then), we have screenshots and logs of you in your 20's in South Karana in late January. How can someone in his level 20's in late January, post holo-ban come on this board and pontificate about what was going on back then between holocaust and nihilum? You were a non-factor during that.

To respond to your other "point," well there's nothing to respond to, you simply restated your point. I spoke to many people, and since I actually use facts, I have no problems listing them, who all said they joined for the loot. Applesauce, Murderface, Madude, Elks, Sektor, Tehruoh, Bronkus, a couple of newer people that wouldn't appreciate me saying their names, plenty of others that I simply can't think of at the moment and that I'm too lazy to sift through screenshots for.

By the way, inductive reasoning involves making a conclusion that because X appears this way, therefore Y is that way as well. I have made no such claim here. I've stated many of the people I have spoken to have stated they joined nihilum for loot, and therefore it's safe to assume more people joined nihilum for loot beyond them. I put in a disclaimer that I'm sure there are those who did not and believe they are on some mythical EverQuest higher ground waiting to be awarded a nobel peace prize for abstaining from PVP or something like that. Inductive reasoning would imply I said that because one player said he joined for loot that I have therefore concluded ALL of nihilum joined for loot as an absolute conclusion.

[Dullah]

By screenshots and logs, u mean one guy (cast) with a /who showing me anonymous, while quad kiting cents/gnolls at lvl 37-39. I was 49 with ice comet 2 weeks later (before Feb) killing your homeboys in sol b.

Inductive reasoning would imply I said that because one player said he joined for loot that I have therefore concluded ALL of nihilum joined for loot as an absolute conclusion.
Or that 4 Nihilum once did something you felt was wrong, so Nihilum as a guild are bad guys.

The lies continue, but I digress.

Heartbrand perpetually dirtnapped on r99 server and forums. Never to recover. Forever butthurt.

[Tradesonred]

Personnally i didnt join Nihilum for the loot, more like because there was nothing else to do. FF and Holo werent really trying to boot them out of fear because of xp loss and i also got tired of the racism in FF.

Im sure if the dynamics of pvp guilds and who contests which zones end game would have been different (if it was easier to challenge zerg guilds with no xp loss in pvp), alot of people would have chosen to do something else.

It was either join Nihilum, and (for me a new zone) raid in fear, or pvp stragglers in front of fear once in a while and farm shit alone like the rubi BP for days on end.

To me just challenging Nihilum changes nothing to the problem.

Say Vae Victis wins over Nihilum in Kunark and breaks their will by making them incur heavy xp losses because the zones are open world and its harder for Nihi to just bottleneck a zone with overwhelming numbers.

Nihilums morale drops, people jump ship to Vae Victis which becomes the new zerg and we have the same problem again. Unchallengeable large roster guild having a stranglehold on the best loot in the game for long periods of time.

[heartbrand]

Except it specifically shows you asking for permission to camp the Hermit. Consequently, regardless of the authenticity of that log, your response confirms my entire point. You weren't present for any of the guild wars at that time of the server, you don't seem to dispute the date of the log that you were still quad kiting, whether it be in your 20's or 30's, which was late January, post holo-ban when the server had already gone to shit, but yet you come here talking about pre-ban times as if you are some authority on them when you're not. Thanks for proving my point.

[Tr0llb0rn]

edit: as for the point about nihilum being a zerg and how it apparently ruins the server, this is hogwash. Many people joined nilly because they saw it as an alternative to the racist loudmouths and griefers in holo and FF. If you don't want one guild to dominate, present an alternative guild for the players to join that isn't centered around griefing people and alienating your potential applicant pool.


This is very true and has been mentioned by several people on these boards (not in Nihilum).

If you want your guild to be a tight-nit bad of a dozen little skinheads running around and griefing the server all the time, well thats fine. This is a Sandbox, more power to you.

But then dont come cry on the forums because you cant slay-the-dragon or come cry to the forums and developers (Searyx..) to code in a fix to your guild's recruitment issues.

With samwise running the show with this Vae Victius guild, we just may have our first non-racist/non-griefer alternative guild in a long while. He has my (our) support, we have ZERO desire to "crush" him/his guild and want to see it thrive because that will lead to longer term server health.

[heartbrand]

Pretty sure the only people shouting racial and religious slurs in OOC are nihilum members currently.

[Tr0llb0rn]

but i will say that right now its hard to say Nihilum is a zerg guild. They do much of the content they currently raid with bare minimum numbers to actually succeed.


Another good and honest and clear eyed post by a new commer who's view is not tainted by old bitter grudges.

[Dullah]

Except it specifically shows you asking for permission to camp the Hermit. Consequently, regardless of the authenticity of that log, your response confirms my entire point. You weren't present for any of the guild wars at that time of the server, you don't seem to dispute the date of the log that you were still quad kiting, whether it be in your 20's or 30's, which was late January, post holo-ban when the server had already gone to shit, but yet you come here talking about pre-ban times as if you are some authority on them when you're not. Thanks for proving my point.

Strugglin' hard. Grasping at straws trying to cling to one little tiny point you wish was true, to finally feel like you got one over on me. No, it wasn't late January dumb ass.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6319/eqgame2012020523452166.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/eqgame2012020523452166.png/)

That was 2-5-12 @ lvl 50 after I spent a week camping manastone on my hotbar after I hit 50, weeks after joining Nihilum, and fighting over Naggy.

Go do "accountant"/"lawyer"/"professor" stuff or whatever it is your profession is this week oh teller of tales.

[Tr0llb0rn]

Pretty sure the only people shouting racial and religious slurs in OOC are nihilum members currently.

Heartbrand, you are a well known liar around these parts. Please stop, all the old and new people know this.

[heartbrand]

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5544/hectordead.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/811/hectordead.jpg/)

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/6615/mellowowned.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/mellowowned.jpg/)

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7812/hectoragain.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/hectoragain.jpg/)

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/830/nagafenlegit.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/nagafenlegit.jpg/)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/8213/mellow.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/401/mellow.jpg/)

[Tradesonred]

Lazortags quote is only half correct IMO, its true that there was no "asshole driven" alternative to Nihilum, but between FF and Holo and Nihi there was pretty much no endgame population left to recruit so Nihi's zerging is at fault as well.

If Nihi could have been broken up through no-xploss pvp some people might have decided to jump ship and try something else but Nihilum was seen as the only option which was unbeatable through sheer numbers.

Thats why xp loss should go, because it keeps things mobile.

[Tr0llb0rn]

Personnally i didnt join Nihilum for the loot, more like because there was nothing else to do. FF and Holo werent really trying to boot them out of fear because of xp loss and i also got tired of the racism in FF.



lol this again.


Lethdar (and others) got deleveled down to 45 in Plane of Fear constantly training, setting off CT deathtouch scripts and getting blown up at their in zone bind point.

Yeah i'm sure it was xp loss they were worried about..... worried so much they stuck around for 5 levels worth of xp loss.

:rolleyes:

[heartbrand]

Strugglin' hard. Grasping at straws trying to cling to one little tiny point you wish was true, to finally feel like you got one over on me. No, it wasn't late January dumb ass.

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6319/eqgame2012020523452166.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/eqgame2012020523452166.png/)

That was 2-5-12 @ lvl 50 after I spent a week camping manastone on my hotbar after I hit 50, weeks after joining Nihilum, and fighting over Naggy.

Go do "accountant"/"lawyer"/"professor" stuff or whatever it is your profession is this week oh teller of tales.

So you post a screenshot, with no date by the way, but you claim it as 2-5-12, a date I agree with that you were in nihilum (and subsequently post holo-ban which was my point), and you want us to extrapolate from this that therefore "weeks" before this you were in Nihilum as well, contrary to logs? Right, cool story bro =)

[heartbrand]

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1319/ownedp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/ownedp.jpg/)

This is you, talking in Uprising guild chat, dated 1-21. By the way, it took me forever to even find a screenshot with you in it, which is surprising since I was at almost every single major battle on this server and you are a huge expert here on these forums having been present for everything? Bit confusing.

[Tr0llb0rn]

back to the topic of solutions:

So Tradesonred.. ive seen you in game (I hear Tehrough slew you in game just yesterday...). Have you joined Vae Victius and added your level 50 shaman to their strength???? I'm sure they can use it. Are you putting your money where your mouth is and helping the server??

Searyx, what about you? Have you logged in yet? I hear Vae Victius has many people in the 30's now leveling up. Does your lvl 40 need xp? Can this new guild benefit from your "vast" EQ knowledge as they try to organize themselves into a new power on the server? You ARE helping them right? They are that "team" you have been waiting for right??

Heartbrand, I hope you are not farming lguk all day as usual and instead PLing these new people and teaching them to do FGs and such.

I'll be looking in game and monitoring what is going on..... and I will be calling all you hypocrits OUT.

[Tradesonred]

lol this again.


Lethdar (and others) got deleveled down to 45 in Plane of Fear constantly training, setting off CT deathtouch scripts and getting blown up at their in zone bind point.

Yeah i'm sure it was xp loss they were worried about..... worried so much they stuck around for 5 levels worth of xp loss.

:rolleyes:

Yeah roll your eyes all you want, some people wanted you out of there and had to resort to this kind of shit because a straightforward assault was doomed to fail. They knew just going in and dying grossly outnumbered was just gonna make you laugh. They were looking for that sting you love to always talk about that is impossible to inflict to Nihilum when they have their huge numbers out.

So training, starting the CT death cycle becomes the only ways left to challenge Nihilum since you cant do it through regular pvp because its so ineffective.

[heartbrand]

"back to the topic of solutions"

aka Heartbrand just slayed you on the forums with facts so please let me loot and scoot to a new thread topic

[Dullah]

File has the date and time recorded by fraps. Unlike you, I'm honest and would not spoof. (everything can be spoofed including logs and screenshots)

[Znif]

tradesonred and heartbrand confirmed both very helpful (dunno about searyx lots of people have alts in the guild)

[Tr0llb0rn]

"back to the topic of solutions"

aka Heartbrand just slayed you on the forums with facts so please let me loot and scoot to a new thread topic

I'll be watching you Heartbrand... dont treat Vae Victus like you did Upprising and then cry when they jump ship to escape your fail.

You have been warned.

[heartbrand]

So Tradesonred.. ive seen you in game (I hear Tehrough slew you in game just yesterday...).

This Tehruoh?

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8734/teh1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/teh1.jpg/)

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/118/teh2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/822/teh2.jpg/)

http://img815.imageshack.us/img815/9887/teh3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/815/teh3.jpg/)

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/6134/teh4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/818/teh4.jpg/)

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4762/teh5.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/84/teh5.jpg/)

Here's Tehruoh, most likely mad as fuck, making jokes about jews dying in the holocaust, sounds like a quality guild member

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5183/tehmad.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/tehmad.jpg/)

Making fun of his own guild leader's handicap

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/586/tehlol.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/256/tehlol.jpg/)

And here's two educational SS's brought to you by Nihilum members

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8513/poopsocktruth.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/191/poopsocktruth.jpg/)

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/900/bronkujs.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/bronkujs.jpg/)

[SearyxTZ]

I think a possible solution is that if 2 guilds get pretty close in raid viability/numbers they could mutually agree to a recruiting hault. Nihilum's roster is viable on their website already and a publicly posted roster is a good way for guilds to keep each other honest in such an agreement.

This is a good idea. I would love to see this happen.


And I'm not looking to win a debate here - I don't care. I just don't want to see Kunark squandered because we (the players) let it go to shit and make the same server-killing mistakes again.

[Tr0llb0rn]

Yeah that Tehruoh that you had the nerve to screenshot nekid kill shots on, he killed trades yesterday.

P.S. constantly spamming screenshots (and even taking them/saving them) shows a ton of insecurity. You'd think someone as awsome as you would of slain-the-dragon (or anything else) at least once in the last 10 months.

But im sure you are about to turn it around for Kunark right? See you on the battlefield :)

[Tr0llb0rn]

This is a good idea. I would love to see this happen.


And I'm not looking to win a debate here - I don't care. I just don't want to see Kunark squandered because we (the players) let it go to shit and make the same server-killing mistakes again.

ok but what are YOU doing? Are you playing a part in any of this besides forum trolling?

I'd really like to know.

Samwise, is Searyx in Vae Victus yet?

Because you know Searyx, its very easy to just live on the forums and preach. What do you practice?

[Dullah]

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/1319/ownedp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/819/ownedp.jpg/)

This is you, talking in Uprising guild chat, dated 1-21.

Ouch, caught in another lie.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1480/uprising.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/140/uprising.png/)


Lucky GMs don't ban for dishonesty, trolling and libel, but in Server Chat they should make an exception.

[SamwiseBanned]

xp worked for sullon, its makes people less likely to kamakaze like this is Quake III. how about people just play better or not go into fights that you have no chance at winning. I guess it would be cool for a free translocate to your bind point by having someone kill you for no xp loss :P Seriously though if you take this out then running around with a naked bard might be fun seeing as how I can throw myself into the middle of 40 Nilly and respawn ready to go again with no xp loss.

Maybe you could increase the time allowed for a rez upon pvp death. This would allow a person who has died to have plenty of time to CR and rez. I cant remember the rez timer but I know its short. What do you guys think about increasing the timer?

[Tr0llb0rn]

xp worked for sullon, its makes people less likely to kamakaze like this is Quake III. how about people just play better or not go into fights that you have no chance at winning. I guess it would be cool for a free translocate to your bind point by having someone kill you for no xp loss :P Seriously though if you take this out then running around with a naked bard might be fun seeing as how I can throw myself into the middle of 40 Nilly and respawn ready to go again with no xp loss.

exactly, this is my whole point.

I guess its a difference between the counterstrike w/ elves crowd and the EQ w/ red option crowd.

Throwing yourself into unwinnable situations (like tradesonred wanting to spend the night throwing 5 players at a 30 person raid over and over, or naked bards throwing themselves at xp groups over and over again) is called griefing, and it should have a price.

[heartbrand]

Lol you just proved my point yet again. 1-20-2012 you're in Uprising. Post holocaust ban, post the formative months of the server which you claim to be an expert about but weren't present for (at the raids), and here you are still grinding away, not 50 yet, still a non-factor. Beautiful =)

[heartbrand]

P.S. constantly spamming screenshots (and even taking them/saving them) shows a ton of insecurity. You'd think someone as awsome as you would of slain-the-dragon (or anything else) at least once in the last 10 months.


Was present for server first Vox kill, multiple Nagafen kills, took Maestro from you, all meaningless to me because I'm here for the PVP battle that leads up to the PVE victory. But thanks.

[Tr0llb0rn]

Was present for server first Vox kill, multiple Nagafen kills, took Maestro from you, all meaningless to me because I'm here for the PVP battle that leads up to the PVE victory. But thanks.

"you" had nothing to do with anything, but being a cancer on whichever guild you hopped to (you've been in them all).

lol Maestro? Dont make me find the stasis quote where he admits training Nihilum during that.

"your" vox/naggy kills was as a leach in Nihilum.

So yeah, you have done nothing. Dont make me bring up your record as fail tank on countless naggy/vox FF/holo combo zerg raids................... (remember that time failing it with 30 ivanderys hoops ? wow)

[Dullah]

Screenshot shows me out of the guild as of 1-20 ("You are no longer a member of Uprising") yet somehow miraculously you have screenshots of me on 1-21 in Uprising...

Lies never cease...

[Akim]

Um. Keep it.
There needs to be incentive not to die.
Very simple concept, idk how you're all missing it.

[Znif]

i like it for now, but like others have said, ill probably hate it in kunark

[Dullah]

Depends if its still just 10 minutes of exp to get back, or whether its a flat percentage which in 51-60, is really slow. 3% of 54 is like an hour.

[Lazortag]

Um. Keep it.
There needs to be incentive not to die.
Very simple concept, idk how you're all missing it.

An incentive not to die.. like this?:

... you already lose all mana, get ported to your bindpoint, lose all coin, lose your camp, and (most of the time) get shamed publicly in ooc

[Barkingturtle]

You dudes take so many screenshots.

Red99 is like a photography simulator.

[Tr0llb0rn]

An incentive not to die.. like this?:

None of those work for the bard bound at TD fire pots. Or come to think of it, the DE SK bound at TD firepots too who does nothing but HT the half of the server who is bound there with him over and over again.........

Yes, indeed we must keep the xp loss in, its the only insurance vs. that level of grief. Every class must have a price to pay.

I know you say we should not form policy around "rare" circumstances. But then who would of thought Lethdar would bind next to CT in plane of fear and spend night after night chain triggering the CT deathtouch script either?

[Akim]

An incentive not to die.. like this?:

Not really man.
Without item loot we need exp loss.

[Dullah]

You dudes take so many screenshots.

Red99 is like a photography simulator.

roflmao

documentation is paramount.

I actually deleted about 1k screenshots when I started playing Tera. Sad cause they were a gold mine of hilarious text and killshots.

[Lazortag]

None of those work for the bard bound at TD fire pots. Or come to think of it, the DE SK bound at TD firepots too who does nothing but HT the half of the server who is bound there with him over and over again.........

Yes, indeed we must keep the xp loss in, its the only insurance vs. that level of grief. Every class must have a price to pay.

I know you say we should not form policy around "rare" circumstances. But then who would of thought Lethdar would bind next to CT in plane of fear and spend night after night chain triggering the CT deathtouch script either?

I responded to the Bard bound in TD situation already, and you just ignored my post. It's not just that it's a rare situation, it's that pvp exp loss doesn't actually fix the problem in that scenario. One bard played well should ruin a wizard's quadding experience whether they're bound in TD or not. They probably wouldn't even die once unless the wizard was armed to the teeth with conflag wands; if they did die, it wouldn't be enough that exp loss would deter them. It's just a bad argument.

I could say the same about the dark elf SK with ring of the dead. It's also one class/race combination and I'm not too concerned about it because so far no one has tried using the ring for this purpose, either here or on Live (on RZ they could have done the same thing naked - HTing someone over and over from their bind point - and without exp loss this still didn't happen). Like I said before, you can hyperbolize and invent farfetched scenarios where pvp exp loss is good, but in the majority of situations it will be bad.

[heartbrand]

This is a dead horse. 100% this will get removed when people start losing 45 minutes of work per pvp death 51+. Get killed on CR? 1.5 hours down the drain. This won't stay in.

[Znif]

lvl 1 de sk looking for plvl :D

[SamwiseBanned]

not sure how hard it would be to scale the xp loss after level 50 but if 1 pvp death is an hour grind, I can see how this would become an issue. I just feel like no xp loss benefits griefers more than anyone (not pvpers.) Again one thing to help would be to extend the rez timer so people who died in pvp to contest a camp can CR later and get a rez after. I think that would encourage more camp/zone control pvp where the loser basically keeps out until the winning group is finished. Its one of the reasons VV recognizes LNS and doesnt encourage killing people on a CR.

[Dullah]

I second a longer rez timer on PvP corpses. Not sure of the point of a 5-6 min timer in the first place. Would also be interesting to be able to rez the pvp xp back. Would be necessary if were losing an hour of xp.

[Znif]

too be fair though samwise on vz and tz the overwhelming majority of players respected LnS without exp loss....did they do the same on sullon?( i really don't know never played there)

[SamwiseBanned]

too be fair though samwise on vz and tz the overwhelming majority of players respected LnS without exp loss....did they do the same on sullon?( i really don't know never played there)

lol youve heard our mumble, im like "no guys dont kill nakeds" and certain un-named people are like "KILL EM!" ofc people say they recognize LNS until some dude on a CR runs past them and they become blood drunk. I assumed LNS would be server wide here but I've seen plenty of people ganked on a CR. as far as LnS on sullon i was a mid level nobody who would repeatedly get ganked by some 50+ evil. tror would know but he was in ruin so probably not many LNS needed.

[Akim]

lol youve heard our mumble, im like "no guys dont kill nakeds" and certain un-named people are like "KILL EM!" ofc people say they recognize LNS until some dude on a CR runs past them and they become blood drunk. I assumed LNS would be server wide here but I've seen plenty of people ganked on a CR. as far as LnS on sullon i was a mid level nobody who would repeatedly get ganked by some 50+ evil. tror would know but he was in ruin so probably not many LNS needed.

But at the same time, the majority of those who die on CR's in my experience, are those who are naked yet you cast on someone and then you get mad that you just got pummeled.

[SamwiseBanned]

But at the same time, the majority of those who die on CR's in my experience, are those who are naked yet you cast on someone and then you get mad that you just got pummeled.

ya when people die they need to loot and get out. i dont feel bad for people who repeatedly come back wanting more and end up getting shit stomped.

[Nizzarr]

lol youve heard our mumble, im like "no guys dont kill nakeds" and certain un-named people are like "KILL EM!" ofc people say they recognize LNS until some dude on a CR runs past them and they become blood drunk. I assumed LNS would be server wide here but I've seen plenty of people ganked on a CR. as far as LnS on sullon i was a mid level nobody who would repeatedly get ganked by some 50+ evil. tror would know but he was in ruin so probably not many LNS needed.

eh, we've had people die in skyshrine and the neutrals camped them for 5 days striaght 24/24.

[Arillious]

I did not read past page 1.

This whole issue seems retarded to me. Are people really dieing that much that exp loss is deterring them from pvp? Any exp lost during pvp can be regained by 15 minutes of pve, and that's if your terrible.

Surely, there are bigger issues to debate than this.

If someone would not play because exp loss of pvp death is in, then they would of quit over something else equally as retarded.

[Tr0llb0rn]

I responded to the Bard bound in TD situation already, and you just ignored my post.


I did not ignore the bard situation. A bard bound in TD firepots will be able to reach out and be in any zone in the game within mins. even naked. What recourse does anyone have if the bard does not take xp loss on pvp death (getting rooted naked then nuked by said wizard.. or whoever he is griefing).?

As for the DE SK, I am binding one there first day of kunark, its ready to go. God help all casters who gate out of a tight spot with low hps... because you will be medding from zero mana for the next 30 mins after I kill you! (If xp loss goes away and I can do it with impunity and at NO risk to myself....)

Thinking more about the bard at TD pots..... hmm, going with my rule that griefers need to be griefed (and guild enemies too..) I'll be binding a bard there myself! And you better belive I'll have a locket of escape in short order.

Points must be proven. God help the druids and wizards who thought even for a second they were gonna xp at spirocs or raptors.... sorry! (if xp loss goes away...........)


(ok I'm not a griefer really, just poiting out the bigger picture and I'm sure some people will do this. There has to be a price to pay for pvp death, even for bards and DE SKs)

[SearyxTZ]

ok but what are YOU doing? Are you playing a part in any of this besides forum trolling?

I'd really like to know.

Samwise, is Searyx in Vae Victus yet?

Because you know Searyx, its very easy to just live on the forums and preach. What do you practice?

I don't really troll here. You would know if I was trolling, and believe me, I could have a field day with some of the people here.


I really should have made a separate thread for the guild size thing. It's much more important than pvp exp loss.

It isn't on me to practice anything that I'm preaching. I formed a reasonably sized guild here that usually pvp'd cleanly and didn't shit all over the server like both Holocaust and Nihilum did. I will gladly do so again once I have confidence that I'm not going to be wasting hundreds of hours of my time so that the ship will sink again because of the other idiots here and apathy from the staff.

This is an opportunity to set the table properly for Kunark and ensure that things don't fall apart again. Let's not fuck it up or get too wrapped up in forum pissing contests.

[Tr0llb0rn]

I don't really troll here. You would know if I was trolling, and believe me, I could have a field day with some of the people here.


I really should have made a separate thread for the guild size thing. It's much more important than pvp exp loss.

It isn't on me to practice anything that I'm preaching. I formed a reasonably sized guild here that usually pvp'd cleanly and didn't shit all over the server like both Holocaust and Nihilum did. I will gladly do so again once I have confidence that I'm not going to be wasting hundreds of hours of my time so that the ship will sink again because of the other idiots here and apathy from the staff.

This is an opportunity to set the table properly for Kunark and ensure that things don't fall apart again. Let's not fuck it up or get too wrapped up in forum pissing contests.

Ok so you are not doing anything but reading the forums. I see. What a shame, samwise- who is actually doing something for the server in game, could of used your help.

And that med. sized guild you use to run was just a shadow feeder guild for holocaust. You said so with your own mouth on these forums and quit the server when they turned you down/griefed your people (also posted about).


I bet, and this is just a hunch: that if you actually logged in and helped Samwise with his new guild, that would do more good for the server then 10k posts by you on the forums.

They are waiting.

[SearyxTZ]

And that med. sized guild you use to run was just a shadow feeder guild for holocaust. You said so with your own mouth on these forums and quit the server when they turned you down/griefed your people (also posted about).


We were never connected to Holocaust.

It was suggested to me (including by staff) to ally with them in the face of Nihilum's ridiculously large zerg. That's it. It didn't happen. Holo quit, and we followed. Most of us weren't interested in trying to compete 10 vs 40 on a server with a bleak outlook.

I bet, and this is just a hunch: that if you actually logged in and helped Samwise with his new guild, that would do more good for the server then 10k posts by you on the forums.


I may give it a go again when the exp bonus kicks in. Will heavily depend on whether TZT'ers are committed to playing LoZ or not. This server isn't an easy sell and a lot of people lost faith after the great population crash of 2012.

[Dullah]

LoZ population this afternoon: 25

[bamzal]

Yeah that Tehruoh that you had the nerve to screenshot nekid kill shots on, he killed trades yesterday.

P.S. constantly spamming screenshots (and even taking them/saving them) shows a ton of insecurity. You'd think someone as awsome as you would of slain-the-dragon (or anything else) at least once in the last 10 months.

But im sure you are about to turn it around for Kunark right? See you on the battlefield :)

Actually that slideshow was funny as hell. Lets see yours

[Tr0llb0rn]

LoZ population this afternoon: 25

wow, so thats what? 6 players? dang


Good news Searyx, I bet you have a easy time convinceing them to give up on loz

[heartbrand]

It's gonna be hard for them to come back from killing trakannon with 5 people to here where they can't kill nagafen with 30.

[SearyxTZ]

Oh, I'm not going to be playing salesman again. I've done enough of that.

This server can sell itself on them (or not). We'll see.


Nope. Not really trying to invest a month /played to get from 50-60 just so I can flying kick for 15 damage instead of 10.

Also GM's RMT'ing etc and not communicating w/ player base whatsoever (except now...to spread the population out even more)

it seems to me like red99 is full of fail, and it almost seems like its only being put up because LoZ has been reasonably successful + to kill it. IDK, I didn't really play on r99 and it is unlikely I will just b/c kunark is opening but if my other pals did I'd do the mail quest at least 3 (edited from 10) times.

[Tr0llb0rn]

It's gonna be hard for them to come back from killing trakannon with 5 people to here where they can't kill nagafen with 30.

Well you have a geared warrior right? and you claim you have the technique to down nagafen/vox here right? Tell them to listen to you, follow instruction and get them CoFs.

Simple as A,B,C

The ingredients are there. Turn that failboat into a battleship.

Besides, killing anything on that other server = meaningless and without any satisfaction. Remind them how much more acomplished they will feel downing a real target instead of those candyland targets.

[Rushmore]

Turn that failboat into a battleship.



Money!

[Tradesonred]

If its not removed, its gotta be at least toned down so that pvp happens more often and its less hard to motivate people to challenge people owning raid zones.

[Xen]

Sometimes I feel bad killing someone knowing they are going to lose xp

[Nirgon]

ITT kids wanting WoW death penalties

[Tradesonred]

ITT kids wanting WoW death penalties

This is an old game, there is nothing else much to do beside pvping for camps and loots.

This isnt a deep game like eve online where theres a zillion things to do beside blowing ships up.

Getting to 50 is such a long boring grind, just a means to an end to me (pvping) once im there i would like to be able to pvp and be able to decide when ill have to do PVE again. The reason it was a long boring grind is because it wasnt a pvp fest like it was on Rallos.

Im so bored of grinding i cant take much of it, i wanna be able to finally have my 90% pvp 10% pve fix.

I was never able to do what i did back on Rallos on red99: take my time with leveling and have lots of pvp while im leveling to kill the boredom of sitting in camps for hours. I would like to be able to do that with Kunark and not being another race to 60 where nobody fights each other (much), thats boring as fuck. The fun i had through pvp did not weight enough to make me deal with the boredom of having to grind your pvp deaths in PVE and it made me quit.

You should be able to take a week off of PVEing if you want and just pvp for a week straight and then pick up your PVE where you left it off.

[Tr0llb0rn]

We just had a guild meeting and we have altered our guild charter to make our number one guildwide LifeQuest to pvp xp kill TradesonRed as much as humanly possible. The vote was unanimous.

[Rushmore]

Trollborn tou vine eh meh dur!!!!

[Tradesonred]

Trollborn tou vine eh meh dur!!!!

Ton vin est merdeux

[aerokella]

America

[jdklaw]

i skipped to page 15, did ecoli come in here crying about xp loss?

[Tumdumm]

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/900/bronkujs.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/21/bronkujs.jpg/)

most interesting thing in this whole thread

im talkin bout the guild chat behind the oversided bronkus quote hehehe

[Smedy]

I like you Trollborn. You're a great troll, but you know Rushmore is like the worst pvper/pver ever right.

I don't say this with contempt for Red99, I've been a huge Red99 proponent since before it was created. Ask Rog and Nilbog, I'd hang out in IRC and advocate for a pvp p99.

But Trolldog, Rushmore is the biggest piece of shit I've ever witnessed. I'm talking like Trisomy 31 bad. u feel me

from this diagnosis i predict rushmore might have the 'assburgers' syndrome, can you confirm, gyno?

[r0xx0r]

i like the exp loss from pvp- i have yet to kill anyone myself and have died plenty of times. I just started playing on p99 red. The exp loss from pvp is very minor compared to the lost exp from pve. This was put into place on the live servers to avoid the ol' trick of killing urself to avoid exp loss. it was put into place around velious era I think. And for a good reason. If there was no exp loss from death ppl would just be pulling trains like crazy and if any goes wrong they'd just nuke/manastone/modrod or have buddies kill em (kill shot is all that matters) so please don't remove the exp loss. But hey- that's my opinion ;p


Xou (blue)
Volatile (red)

[heartbrand]

Killing yourself is a pve death

[Etris]

Solution -

Increase XP Rate PvE
Remove XP Penalty PvE Death

Increase XP Penalty PvP Death
PvPing gives XP

[Whit]

Can exploit the hell out of xp gain through pvp. Seems like it'd be pretty damn hard to figure out a way where it wouldn't be exploited.

[Etris]

I suppose? But you'd be deleveling someone else to PL yourself.

Probably faster to just have a druid pull 100 mobs and PL you than exploiting PvP XP.

[Znif]

only gain or lose exp from characters 4 lvls above/below you? and not make the gain as big as the loss

[Etris]

Also you guys should take out "Encumberance" in the game and make all items stackable.

Just sayin.

[Tradesonred]

Heres my process, each time i die (Hint: if youre in a zone where pvp is happening alot, which i saw a few times FF vs Nihilum, you will do this as a shaman a couple of times within 30 minutes):

- Med up, while im doing that:

- Load up all my buffing spells

- buff up

- remove all buffing spells

- Load up my pvp set of spells

- med some more

- If im with pvp buddies, gonna have to buff em too after running to the regroup point.

- Med some more

- Run to wherever i died

- Loot my corpse

So to everyone saying that pvp death needs to sting, thats a penalty enough for me. Im already looking at other games (DayZ) to get my pvp fix. I would put my hand in the fire that its because xp pvp death with all the xp and medding hassles combined is why we saw so little of pvp happen compared to what happened on Rallos.

Just playing for a few days reminds me of the pvp process of EQ in general and on this box. XP loss really needs to go. We dont need this on top of the rest of the hassle of dying.

Im willing to take all this, but with xp loss on top, since im really not a PVEer and dont get the option to put PVE on hold indefinitely while i PVP, the bad outweights the good.

Example: On rallos i had a couple of toons which i used strictly for pvping, like a lvl 12 wizard. Here its impossible to have that, just have an alt to jump in for some pvp fun for a couple of hours, without the need to PVE to keep him there.

One more time: Example: On rallos i had a couple of toons which i used strictly for pvping, like a lvl 12 wizard. Here its impossible to have that, just have an alt to jump in for some pvp fun for a couple of hours, without the need to PVE to keep him there.


Blah blah blah cant take EQ. Youre right, cant take EQ like this, boring. XP loss in pvp is bad from so many angles

[Cars]

Heres my process, each time i die (Hint: if youre in a zone where pvp is happening alot, which i saw a few times FF vs Nihilum, you will do this as a shaman a couple of times within 30 minutes):

- Med up, while im doing that:

- Load up all my buffing spells

- buff up

- remove all buffing spells

- Load up my pvp set of spells

- med some more

- Run to wherever i died

- Loot my corpse

So to everyone saying that pvp death needs to sting, thats a penalty enough for me. Im already looking at other games (DayZ) to get my pvp fix. I would put my hand in the fire that its because xp pvp death with all the xp and medding hassles combined is why we saw so little of pvp happen compared to what happened on Rallos.

Just playing for a few days reminds me of the pvp process of EQ in general and on this box. XP loss really needs to go. We dont need this on top of the rest of the hassle of dying.

Blah blah blah cant take EQ. Youre right, cant take EQ like this, boring.

Even though I originally said I was for exp loss, I am now definitely against it. I still don't think that item loot should be a part of the game though. imo the two topics shouldn't be treated as mutually exclusive in any argument

[xblade724]

xp loss upon pvp death was classic (sz), in fact I remember it being more but maybe thats because I was a newb back then.

Scrub, pvp loss was NEVER classic on ANY pvp server. Sullon was also the last pvp server to come out and makes the word classic non-existent. Plus, Rallos was the most hardcore server and even that wasn't xp loss.

"QQ if they remove the xp then..thenn... then i'll be bind rushed!!" WTF if a naked caster of any kind has time to get full mana, mem his spells and still kill you naked and haven't left the area, you deserve to die. "BUT THE MONKS!" oh yea, 0.2% of the population .. get over it.

We are worried about bind rush, but what happens more often than bind rushing is chain pvp deaths/trolls. You think bind rushing, the rare occurrence, is worse? WTB logic

>> Edit: Someone else said something about investing time in xp is the same as investing xp in coin. Try saying that to the people with MASSIVE hybrid xp penalties O_o Coin is special for loot because you can keep gathering it, and depending on how risky/greedy you want to be you can risk getting more before banking it. That's your loss if you stayed and was greedy/lazy. Xp loss is whether you are playing smart or not -- not cool, especially on super repeat/chain ganks.

>> Furthermore, this prevents chain ganks/corpse camping on the same individual!! No reward = they move on. Killing a naked guy trying to recover his corpse resulting in xp loss is satisfying and will encourage this as it happens all the time with no GM reinforcement (that i've ever experienced or heard anyone experience)

[Greegon]

XP loss is cool in classic, but kunark xp rates with xp loss=insanity

[Dullah]

XP loss is cool in classic, but kunark xp rates with xp loss=insanity
Nailed it.

[SamwiseBanned]

Scrub, pvp loss was NEVER classic on ANY pvp server. Sullon was also the last pvp server to come out and makes the word classic non-existent. Plus, Rallos was the most hardcore server and even that wasn't xp loss.

"QQ if they remove the xp then..thenn... then i'll be bind rushed!!" WTF if a naked caster of any kind has time to get full mana, mem his spells and still kill you naked and haven't left the area, you deserve to die. "BUT THE MONKS!" oh yea, 0.2% of the population .. get over it.

We are worried about bind rush, but what happens more often than bind rushing is chain pvp deaths/trolls. You think bind rushing, the rare occurrence, is worse? WTB logic

>> Edit: Someone else said something about investing time in xp is the same as investing xp in coin. Try saying that to the people with MASSIVE hybrid xp penalties O_o Coin is special for loot because you can keep gathering it, and depending on how risky/greedy you want to be you can risk getting more before banking it. That's your loss if you stayed and was greedy/lazy. Xp loss is whether you are playing smart or not -- not cool, especially on super repeat/chain ganks.

>> Furthermore, this prevents chain ganks/corpse camping on the same individual!! No reward = they move on. Killing a naked guy trying to recover his corpse resulting in xp loss is satisfying and will encourage this as it happens all the time with no GM reinforcement (that i've ever experienced or heard anyone experience)

Fairly certain there was xp loss on a pvp death on SZ. Never seen you in game so I am going to assume you play blue and just browse the red forums. RZ most hard core? lol 4 level pvp range sounds like childs play when compared to no rules no level range on SZ. also you whining about being bind camped/corpse camped its pretty funny. RZ must have been a nice place if you could get GMs to help you.

[SamwiseBanned]

Flowers of Happiness had rules posted on notacult, here is a forum post read line 3

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=39541

3. Characters will lose experience when killed in PvP combat if the character that killed them is within 5 levels. The amount of experience lost will be the same amount that is lost if that character is killed by an NPC. Your corpse can be resurrected by a cleric to partially restore lost experience.

http://www.freewebs.com/noxferato/UltraKill.jpg

[Nizzarr]

thats sz ruleset.

Worked good.