How do Barbarian Shamans and their toys hold up in Velious?

[Safon]

I was browsing some Shaman race choice topics, and some people were saying things like "Trolls become best in Velious" and "the Barbarian Spiritist Hammer is awesome until Velious".

Can anyone explain why those things would be said? Velious is brand new to me

[Huddaan]

Just like the JBB is awesome until Velious. Velious is a frozen land where most mobs have a higher cold resist. So the Barb Hammer and JBB will be far less effective. Ogre Shaman > all.

[Kevlar]

Iksars get a little better too because they can wear the good stuff.

[godbox]

who said trolls become best in velious?

[Naerron]

IMO the best shammys are trolls or ogres, Trolls get a great innate regen AAnnnd that cool click necklace with snare on it, a spell not available to normal shammys. And ofc most people say ogre because the innate frontal stun immunity, and for shams who spend a lot of time soloing whilst meleing, not being able to be interupted is awesome.

[Spitty]

Just like the JBB is awesome until Velious. Velious is a frozen land where most mobs have a higher cold resist. So the Barb Hammer and JBB will be far less effective. Ogre Shaman > all.

Shaman ice line is a lure type - JBB remains effective versus most Velious mobs, unless p99 has other ideas for Velious resists. BSH is, and will remain, fairly useless for an epic shaman.

Also, ogres are fat.

[Delita2]

Shaman ice line is a lure type - JBB remains effective versus most Velious mobs, unless p99 has other ideas for Velious resists. BSH is, and will remain, fairly useless for an epic shaman.

Also, ogres are fat.

Lol, lure? What shit have you been smoking.

[Alarti0001]

iksars are the best shamans ! troll regen + ac !

[Safon]

So if I go with Barbarian for my new Shaman, and hook him up with a set of totemic, a fungi tunic, haste belt, barbarian spiritist hammer, and nice jewelry, he'll still be pretty well set when Velious rolls around?

[theaetatus]

It's still the worst choice for shaman, but you'll be fine.

[Safon]

It's still the worst choice for shaman, but you'll be fine.

What if we take into account not wanting to look like a fat sack of shit?

[theaetatus]

Trolls are the most beautiful race.

[Diggles]

What if we take into account not wanting to look like a fat sack of shit?

iksar in velious or bust

[godbox]

innate regen @ 60 for a shaman is meh. you may have noticed most 60 shams just stack +hp gear and generally dont wear fungi other than for fashion. 1-59 troll regen is great. 1-60 ogre stun immune is OP. barb spiritist hammer is not a good reason to roll barb

[bizzum]

Troll, only because I am one.

[Diggles]

iksar is best! :mad:

[Autotune]

Iksar, Troll or Orgre in Velious.

[Spitty]

Lol, lure? What shit have you been smoking.

Better shit than you'll ever get.

[quido]

Most of the badasses are barbs anyways - I bet they do just fine in Velious!

[Hailto]

Barbarian is the only Shaman race that doesn't look like complete shit, therefore it is the only choice.

[baub]

Most of the badasses are barbs anyways - I bet they do just fine in Velious!

yup

rule #1 of min-max though, if ogre is option, you choose ogre

[Ephirith]

Iksars derive their regeneration ability from the consumption of infants. Barbarians are the product of incest between Erollisi and Mithaniel Marr. Trolls have penis-nose. Ogres are a decent choice but only if your name involves poop, butts, farts, or obesity.

[Gustoo]

yup

rule #1 of min-max though, if ogre is option, you choose ogre

Truth. Stun resist means a lot when doing intense CC and stuff.

[Psionide]

barb shamans can still solo just fine against dragons in velious with frontal stun. Doesn't really matter which race you pick because the class is amazing itself.

[somnia]

Who cares what you look like? See http://wiki.project1999.org/index.php/Form_of_the_Great_Bear

[webrunner5]

[QUOTE=Ephirith;714976]Trolls have penis-nose.

Problem with Ogre and Troll is they are too large in some outdoor zones that they can't use Shrink. Like Unrest. It is a real turd at times.

[pasi]

But that's if you want to solo. Doesn't really matter what race you are on most of the important Velious raid encounters... AoW you'll be boxing a cleric or if you're dead weight to your guild and no one trusts you, then you'll be chain casting ice nukes to add .1% dps. Vulak you'll just be curing disease. Vyemm you'll just smoke a blunt and watch yourself get flung around a room. Aaryonar is one of the few important encounters that come down to shaman skill, and that just lies in being the first one to land a slow and not getting mana drained like a noob. Ventani you get to shrink everyone and then afk behind the ledge with your MQ2 /patchheal macro.

You're forgetting the vital role of healing the clerics who are chaining mod-rods. It's the druids prerogative to re-roll clerics.

[Purdee]

[QUOTE=Ephirith;714976]Trolls have penis-nose.

Problem with Ogre and Troll is they are too large in some outdoor zones that they can't use Shrink. Like Unrest. It is a real turd at times.

shrink pots work outdoors.

[Extunarian]

Most of the badasses are barbs anyways - I bet they do just fine in Velious!

yep

Solo Artists:

Grandmasters:
Loraen, Gnome Enchanter, Solo Grandmaster, Duo Grandmaster
Svenn, Barbarian Shaman, Solo Grandmaster, Duo Grandmaster
Orruar, Barbarian Shaman, Solo Grandmaster, Duo Master
Stealin, Erudite Necromancer, Duo Grandmaster


God Mode Kills
Neh'Ashiir [54 Enchanter, City of Mist]: Loraen [S-], Svenn [S-], Orruar [S-]

[theaetatus]

Yeah, any race of shaman is going to be fine. It's all just min/maxing after all... Stun immunuity, Snare/regen, AC/regen or kilts, take your pick.

[SomberSunday]

Barbi boobies > all

[azeth]

Barbi boobies > all

naw wood elf always trumps. You really don't need more than a big handful, let's get real here.

[Orruar]

It's been said a million times, but here's one million and one.

Ogre frontal stun immunity is so overrated. A slowed mob bashes once every 32 seconds. Half of those don't land. Many mobs kick half the time instead of bash. Stun immunity means 1 less interrupt every minute or two. The majority of interrupts come from straight damage push, not from bash. If you're playing your level 60 shaman right, the majority of your casts is canni 3. Being interrupted on canni 3 is not something to cry about. Ogres are shit.

For leveling, barb is where it's at. The BS hammer is just straight amazing for killing stuff, period. It's less important at 60, especially once you have epic, but it's still nice.

Troll and Iksar regen is quite nice, far more useful than ogre stun immunity. Regen is not inconsequential at level 60. And whoever said shamans don't wear fungi at level 60, you're an undiluted idiot.

If you're starting a shaman now, I'd go troll. The regen and snare neck are far more useful than other racial benefits. If you don't like looking like a giant piece of crap, go Iksar.

[azeth]

information

Perhaps if you weren't so demonstrative folks would actually read your monologues.

Really, are we "undiluted idiots" for stating Fungi won't be the primary BP in Velious? Or are you just being a dick, per usual?

I think you may want to read up on Velious gear if you sincerely think you'll be sporting a fungi while doing WW drags.

Also, fyi dragons/mammoths kick, and bash far more often than once every 30 secs. Enjoy getting butthoused by Tantor as a barbarian/troll/iksar.

[quido]

Azeth why don't you go crawl back into whatever pussywhipped twink hole you crawled out of? Bitch

[Orruar]

Perhaps if you weren't so demonstrative folks would actually read your monologues.

Really, are we "undiluted idiots" for stating Fungi won't be the primary BP in Velious? Or are you just being a dick, per usual?

Perhaps if you didn't just make shit up, folks would actually read your monologues.

He didn't say we'd be wearing new bps in Velious. He said shamans only wear fungi now for fashion. And further stated that regen for a shaman is "meh". Yes torpor is great, but I'd rather be getting hp back mana-free and without the need for a 6 second cast of a spell. And when tanking hard hitters and brutal casters like in HS south, I may need to keep torpor up constantly. This means the regen actually allows me to continue to canni nonstop whereas without I may have to pause for a couple ticks.

[Orruar]

If you're not using Vindicator BP in Velious you just need to reroll Druid or maybe stop playing the game. I can see wearing Fungi in Kunark because your options suck (JB BP is awful besides the clicky) but Vindi BP is one of the best shaman items in the entire expansion, plus it's so easy to get. I think I replaced my Vindi BP with Bloodlink Chestmail (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=26527). That Velious BP served me until Gates of Discord.

Stun immunity is not god mode. But it could definitely save your ass. I mained a barbarian shaman for years, do you realize how many times I died because I had a critical spell like torpor or a re-turgurs bashed away? I raged every single time wishing I had rolled an ogre. Yes, most of the time you might get Canni III or IV bashed and it's inconsequential, but Murphy's Law still applies. A bit of regen might make you slightly more efficient. Having a spell stunned can kill you.

The regen and snare neck are tiny bonuses. They're not on par to stun immunity.

Nobody is talking about fungi in Velious except for Azeth who tried to use it (unsuccessfully) as a straw man.

And just because you couldn't time your spells around bashes doesn't mean nobody can. I suppose ogre is the easy choice if you can't figure out how to cast around the bash timer, on fights where it's necessary. Keep in mind that probably 80% of interrupts are due to damage, not to bash interrupt. I'd imagine most of your deaths from interrupts were due to straight damage and not bash, in which case iksar is the only one that helps with that.

[azeth]

Nobody is talking about fungi in Velious except for Azeth who tried to use it (unsuccessfully) as a straw man..

hey genius, check the thread title.

seems as though you need puppet strings to accomplish anything, including rational thinking.

[webrunner5]

If you're not using Vindicator BP in Velious you just need to reroll Druid or maybe stop playing the game. I can see wearing Fungi in Kunark because your options suck (JB BP is awful besides the clicky) but Vindi BP is one of the best shaman items in the entire expansion, plus it's so easy to get. I think I replaced my Vindi BP with Bloodlink Chestmail (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=26527). That Velious BP served me until Gates of Discord.

Stun immunity is not god mode. But it could definitely save your ass. I mained a barbarian shaman for years, do you realize how many times I died because I had a critical spell like torpor or a re-turgurs bashed away? I raged every single time wishing I had rolled an ogre. Yes, most of the time you might get Canni III or IV bashed and it's inconsequential, but Murphy's Law still applies. A bit of regen might make you slightly more efficient. Having a spell stunned can kill you.

The regen and snare neck are tiny bonuses. They're not on par to stun immunity.

What the hell does a level 65 BP have to do with P1999?

[azeth]

That chest plate is ridiculous

Sometimes i don't even recognize EQ loot once I see numbers over 100.

I think the rogue epic 5.0 or whatever the hell it is, is like 65 damage 10 delay

[Orruar]

hey genius, check the thread title.

seems as though you need puppet strings to accomplish anything, including rational thinking.

Yes, because we all know that no thread has ever discussed anything not related to the title of the thread. You are clearly a master of internet forum etiquette. If you don't know what post I was referring to originally, I'd recommend you either look it up, or keep your mouth shut. Better to be silent and thought an idiot.

Your second sentence is just bizarre.

[quido]

Azeth your sig is misleading - that's not how the discussion went!

Are you sure your wife is alright with you posting here? Maybe you should delete your forum account too! I might have to tell on you.

[Splorf22]

Well if I were playing a shaman, I would use gamtexttriggers for 'tries to bash YOU' and 'bashes YOU' so I knew when the next one was coming.

[Orruar]

God this is so wrong I don't know where to begin.

First of all, it's impossible to "time your spells around bash." You can't predict resists, interrupts, and about a dozen other elements that control when you need to cast specific spells. That's one of the most ridiculous claims I've ever heard. What, do you sit down and plan out your spell rotation over what could possibly be an hour long solo fight to avoid casting "important" spells every 32 seconds?

Also, damage doesn't cause spell interrupts. You're thinking of the knockback/push you receive from taking damage. Iksars aren't less affected by damage push, so that's also irrelevant.

Have you ever played a shaman before? Or even this game?

You're right about the Iksar thing, my bad.

For the rest, lol. If you don't understand the simple mechanisms of timing spells around a static timer like bash, that's ok. There's nothing wrong with being in a state of ignorance about such a thing. However, one should not hold such a strong opinion while in that state of ignorance.

[Safon]

People, people! Can't we all just, get it on?

[Orruar]

You're missing the entire point of what I said. Sure you can run a parser and know when the next bash is coming. But what if you need need to cast a torpor or turgur's close to the next bash? Simply knowing the bash is coming doesn't help you at all. You can avoid casting an important spell but that doesn't help you, that just means that bash shut you down from casting an important spell that you needed to refresh. If you're an ogre, you can just ignore the bash and cast the important spells when you actually need to. Like I mentioned before, this could be the difference between winning and losing high-difficulty solo fights.

Since you seem to be struggling, I'll give you some tips.

1) You don't need a parser... Just have all mob hits on you go to one window and watch it for bashes. When mob is unslowed, you have 8 seconds. When mob is slowed, you have 32 seconds. I'm not real familiar with the WW dragons, but I assume most are slowable if shamans are soloing them. This makes the bash problem rather trivial.

2) You know when you'll need to land torpor. Assuming you want to keep it rolling 24x7, you have a 6 second window in which to cast and get the full benefit of every torpor. Knowing when in that 6 second window you need to cast depends on the bash timer.

3) Even ogres can run into problems with slow resists. That's why you begin recasting slow well before you need it to land. It's easier to do than torpor, since it's only 3 seconds of cast time. And if you're casting this spell, it means the mob is slowable, which means a 32 second bash window. If you can't figure out how to land a slow between bashes at this point, you might want to go back to Farmville.

[Orruar]

hey genius, check the thread title.

Take your own advice before you give it. Fungi isn't even a topic of conversation if we are sticking to the thread title. You really should try and understand the context of the conversation before joining it.

[Orruar]

All your problems lie in this paragraph. You assume that if a mob can be slowed, it will always be slowed on every attempt. The high skill solo targets in Velious have very high MR and your slow will most likely be resisted more than it lands. I'm not talking about soloing East Wastes orcs here. You're just making stuff up from a vacuum of unlikely perfect conditions, whereas I'm trying to offer advice based on years of experience.

Saying that Turgur's is easier to land than Torpor because it's a 3 second cast time is ridiculous. The stumbling block is not the 3 second cast time, it's the following 6 second recast time when the slow fails to land. It takes skill and experience on a mob-per-mob basis to know when to safely begin refreshing slow, and even then you can run into a particularly unlucky run of resists and have your slow come down to the wire on the end of the duration. Playing a shaman is all about the constant weaving of spells in the most efficient manner possible, you can "plan" around a 32 second bash timer, but that's not a fix, your options and therefore efficiency are still going to be limited as compared to the freedom that an ogre would have. When you're casting spells 100% of the time, there's no such thing as just taking a break for a bash or being okay with a spell interrupt.

Not going to keep going back and forth with someone who thinks they know what they're talking about when they don't.The fact still remains that the following is true:

In the most dangerous situations, in the situations that matter the most, stun immunity will give you the flexibility to survive when you may otherwise not. Regeneration, AC bonuses, or clicky snare necklace do not come close to compensating for the ogre bonus. You can do fine as other races, but if we're talking about which is best the answer is easily ogre.

Dude, stop already, I'm going to die laughing. How someone can be so ignorant and continue posting? How are you able to use a keyboard? Do you have some interface that allows you to press colors and shapes to convey ideas?

Turgur's IS easier to land in the sense that is it easier to cast without being interrupted. Clearly I wasn't saying it was easier to get it to hold on the mob than torpor being that torpor is a buff and so the comparison is meaningless. And in the paragraph you quoted, I stated that you have to begin casting slow well before it wears off to handle resists, so I very clearly made my position on the difficulty of reslowing these mobs known. How you can imply that I meant exactly the opposite of what I so clearly wrote is beyond my understanding.

And I don't know why you keep saying I haven't played a shaman... At first I assumed you were trying to set up some sort of joke, but I'm starting to think you really don't know that I do in fact play a shaman. I'm the only shaman on server that I know of that will solo in HS south (break and hold camp without use of puppet strings). So you're basically talking to the one person who knows the most about hardcore shaman soloing on this server.

I do wonder if you play a shaman though. If you did, you would know that planning around a 32 second bash timer is quite trivial. 90% of our casts are canni 3, and so all you really need to think about is when you'll cast torpor, slow, and any dots.

[Hagglebaron]

Why is Lodizal the be all/end all solo mob for shaman? What about him makes him the pinnacle of solo-ability, as opposed to other high end mobs?

[Droxx]

Buffs dont care what race they come from.

[Splorf22]

So if by Lodizal you are referring to: http://mqemulator.net/npc.php?id=110099

Then he seems roughly equivalent to the Sebilite Protector statwise: http://mqemulator.net/npc.php?id=89001

And you can kite him while you get him slowed. I would feel pretty confident in my ability to solo him with Loraen tonight actually.

[Orruar]

This thread's about Velious. You're a nobody shaman who's played on P99 Kunark for a couple months and bragging about soloing HS trash. Congratulations. I'm talking from experience of playing a shaman in a high end raid guild throughout Velious (twice - original/classic and Progession 1.0).

Once again, the things you're saying aren't incorrect per se but they're irrelevant. Yes, if you play a non-ogre you can time things around bash. You're not teaching me some sort of lost nugget of shamanic knowledge here. It also doesn't make your point. It reinforces the fact that ogres are better because they don't have to worry about that bullshit.

When you're working your way up and soloing mobs like Mazi who hit for 200+, AE and dispel, you have way too much to worry about to plan out spell timings around a bash timer. When you're timing your torpor around AE dispels while keeping dots / debuffs online amidst high resist rates, you'll begin to realize the advantages that ogres have when you have very tiny windows to land specific spells. Once you work up to Lodizal/Stomples... forget it.

What class do you play here? I'd love to see you solo HS south with a shaman. With all of your vast knowledge, I'm sure it would not be a problem. Of course, anyone who has been to HS south here knows it's not just "HS trash". Breaking a camp there is probably the toughest thing I can do currently, and I put it well above things like soloing Drusella, which is probably the closest you can get to WW dragons at this point.

I love how your argument morphed from:
it's impossible to time your spells around bash.

to:
Yes, if you play a non-ogre you can time things around bash. You're not teaching me some sort of lost nugget of shamanic knowledge here.

It seems you have gained that lost nugget of shamanic knowledge sometime in the last few hours. So now that you admit I'm right about being able to time around bash, surely you must admit that timing around bash and having extra regen is better than not getting stunned by bash with no regen.

I'll admit that if you don't have the multitasking ability to keep track of bashes on top of the other things you have to watch, you should probably play ogre. But troll/iksar offers you the possibility of being more effective, though it requires more work.

[Orruar]

Testing signature

[Sajan]

I love how your argument morphed from:


to:


It seems you have gained that lost nugget of shamanic knowledge sometime in the last few hours

lol'd

[azeth]

this thread hurt a lot of feelings! lol for real.

[pasi]

There shouldn't even be a discussion on what's the best race for shaman at 60 post-Kunark. A lot of the stuff in Velious that shamans can do is very difficult to slow for it's high MR and/or high level. Stuff like Huntsman/Scribe (lucrative targets) are MR, but might still be shaman soloable. It's not that bash-immune is required, it just helps more than a bit of regen or AC when you're already hitting the softcap.

What else do you suggest in Velious besides Lodizal and Stomples? Vaniki? lol.

Other shaman soloable Velious targets like Klandicar/Zlandicar/Vaniki are out of realm of possibility until later expansions.

Curious, at what point was Vaniki shaman soloable? Obviously, that is without exploiting warring factions. I (SK) was soloing Zlandicar (Trak, Gore, Sev, Talendor as well) in late-PoP, but Vaniki was impossible - the natural regen was way too high.

Also, what's with the fascination of soloing WW dragons? Even most matchless is meh. Given how much better the P99 base is at the game vs what a live server was, PoMischief Cards are likely going to be the cash cow for solo farmers.

Reading the solo thread, it's pretty impressive what people are able to do with some strings and Kunark gear.

Raltaas, Keldor, Dlammaz, and Kromzek Captain should all make solid duo targets.

[Triangle]

I don't want to join this argument by any means. However an important fact has been left out of the equation and must be added: Bash does not always land, and even when it does, it does not always have the stun component.

Now in my opinion this fact adds a bit to both sides. On one side, timing to avoid it is not always necessary at all because sometimes the npc will attempt to bash and it won't work, therefore you have wasted time not casting a spell where one could have been cast.. While on the other side, Ogre's frontal immunity does not come into play everytime an npc 'bashes' because of the same reason, the bash may not have landed/stunned at all on even a barb shammy. I haven ever timed bashes and I am a barb shammy. Consequently there are times when i wish I was ogre =P. Maybe if i had a stopwatch as part of my ui or something.

[Galelor]

If you're not using Vindicator BP in Velious you just need to reroll Druid or maybe stop playing the game. I can see wearing Fungi in Kunark because your options suck (JB BP is awful besides the clicky) but Vindi BP is one of the best shaman items in the entire expansion, plus it's so easy to get. I think I replaced my Vindi BP with Bloodlink Chestmail (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=26527). That Velious BP served me until Gates of Discord.

Stun immunity is not god mode. But it could definitely save your ass. I mained a barbarian shaman for years, do you realize how many times I died because I had a critical spell like torpor or a re-turgurs bashed away? I raged every single time wishing I had rolled an ogre. Yes, most of the time you might get Canni III or IV bashed and it's inconsequential, but Murphy's Law still applies. A bit of regen might make you slightly more efficient. Having a spell stunned can kill you.

The regen and snare neck are tiny bonuses. They're not on par to stun immunity.

+1
This was my barb shaman BP upgrade path on live.
I also had some child like foot stomping rage every time I died due to bash interrupting one of my spells. No matter how good you are, it will happen multiple times if you push the limits. You will rage. Anyone that says differently is wrong. I rolled another barb on p99 :) If only I had free time to play...

Totally off topic, but in response to someone posting that Velious had easy solo encounters I tend to agree. The hard parts of the encounters are related to killing something where the fight takes fucking year to kill it...
That said, I was excited when I soloed Lodi and some of the WW dragons, but it was nothing compared to soloing some of the higher DPS trash mobs in later eq. Memorable moments for me: When I was way under geared during Kunark and soloed a SF worm using pet/rain spells, or later on during PoP when I soloed the Plane of Storm wasps. My favorite and most memorable solo my first undead melee trash giant at the zone in of Frostcrypt during The Serpent's Spine. They were so ass rape that people thought I was bullshitting them when I said I did it lol!

[Galelor]

Testing signature

/thread

[Spitty]

Your word choice isn't poor - it perfectly demonstrates how nonsensical your argument is.

You aren't interested in figuring this bash timing mechanism out; that much is painfully clear.

90% of your post is bullshit you made up in your head to strengthen an argument with no foundation, other than having bash immunity is preferable to not having bash immunity.

This makes is delightfully amusing that you've put to use the straw-man term without realizing you've become the walking ideal of that fallacy.

Bash timing isn't rocket science; once you figure out it's a cyclical event, you can time it. Once you can time it, you can work around it. This is something I do every time I solo NG, using the same stopwatch app I use to time the roamer, and usually while watching Netflix.

Obviously I pay more attention when it's a long-term encounter, a solo achievement, a crucial mob; the point you should be taking home is that it's easily applied, at will, once the bash cycle's timing is defined.

This is about as basic as clicking the epic when it hits 154 damage so that you refresh the dot cycle when the next tick hits 165 and clears the effect. I really don't understand why you're still trying to argue against this technique.

[Spitty]

Or, you could get off your illegitimately high horse and -

1. Learn something new for a change

2. Quit changing your argument from "it's impossible..." to "All I'm saying is...".

You have the consistency of pissed-in cake batter.

Six years is cute, though =).

[MaksimMazor]

I like the book you wrote earlier Reikerz

[SomberSunday]

So basically what everyone is saying is: If you want to play a shaman, roll a Gnome.

[Orruar]

stuff

Anyone can set up a straw man and knock it down. It's certainly much easier to do that than to refute any of what I've actually said. I've never said anything about a perfect world where you get no resists or fizzles. Every race has to deal with those issues, and they only present a minor additional inconvenience when timing bash properly.

I love your math... You show how over a 30 minute fight, stun immunity will give you the ability to cast 2 extra torpor, to gain 2400 hp. Then you dismiss lame +8 standing regen. Let's see, 8 hp per tick = 80 hp per minute * 30 min = 2400 hp. Let's ignore the fact that if you're timing bash properly, you won't let torpor drop and so you don't really gain those 2 extra torpors. Even if you do get those awesome gains, you end up even with the troll on hp, and having spent an extra 400 mana. Next time you say "math time", don't stop doing math after only analyzing half of the equation.

I'll give you some help on your argument, since you seem to be having trouble forming a decent one yourself. When bashed, you get stunned for 1.5 seconds. That is extra downtime. Even if you time your big spells around bash, as every good shaman should, you still lose out about 1/2 cast of canni each time you are bashed. This happens about every minute, so you lose roughly 1 canni cast every 2 minutes. This is what you should be focused on if you want to argue the benefits of stun resist.

Of course, against the very hardest hitters where you have to back off canni after unlucky streaks of hits, this effect is negated. If you're never reaching full hp with torpor ticking nonstop, the stun immunity offers no benefit. And these are precisely the fights where extra regen offers the greatest benefit (use your math to understand why).

[aegeryen]

So basically what everyone is saying is: If you want to play a shaman, roll a Gnome.

Sound advise

[webrunner5]

thx

God damn get rid of that Gif. How do you expect people to read your stuff with that stupid thing repeating 50 times a minute.

[Autotune]

So, knowing when a bash is coming up helps you know when to not cast, but what if you need to cast something when that bash timer is about to hit?

Do you
A) die
B) die
C) Change time and space so that you can some how change your spells around in a way that doesn't affect your efficiency and you don't run OOM from overlapping spells too soon.


To be bashed or not be bashed, that is the question.

When it comes to RNG bash will affect you, regardless of how well you can count to ten on your fingers, unless you're an ogre and you give 0ducks.

That said, I'd still rather be a lizard in velious.

[Orruar]

So, knowing when a bash is coming up helps you know when to not cast, but what if you need to cast something when that bash timer is about to hit?

Do you
A) die
B) die
C) Change time and space so that you can some how change your spells around in a way that doesn't affect your efficiency and you don't run OOM from overlapping spells too soon.


D) Cast either far enough in advance to land the spell right before the bash, or start cast right after the bash. You have a 6 second window in which you can land your torpor and have 0 waste. The only problem then is if the bash timer lines up exactly with the start of this 6 second window (or up to 1.5 seconds before the window starts). This situation can be avoided if you use your brain. Hint: Think about the pattern of bashes with a 32 second bash cycle and 24 second torpor cycle. Another hint: You can't control the server's timing on torpor ticks, but you can control when the bash cycle starts.

[Autotune]

D) Cast either far enough in advance to land the spell right before the bash, or start cast right after the bash. You have a 6 second window in which you can land your torpor and have 0 waste. The only problem then is if the bash timer lines up exactly with the start of this 6 second window (or up to 1.5 seconds before the window starts). This situation can be avoided if you use your brain. Hint: Think about the pattern of bashes with a 32 second bash cycle and 24 second torpor cycle. Another hint: You can't control the server's timing on torpor ticks, but you can control when the bash cycle starts.

With melee interruptions and resists, I still can see where people will have to cast with a bash incoming or die.

[pasi]

When you time spells around bash, do you assume every bash is going to hit? Say spell cast recovery time finishes and you want to canni, but your bash metrognome shows there is a bash in 2.273 (repeating) seconds. Do you cast? The Ogre doesn't give a hoot.

I mean, this isn't some age-old question without an answer. There's probably a giant sticky on Samanna that says 'ROLL OGRE.'

Hint: Think about the pattern of bashes with a 32 second bash cycle and 24 second torpor cycle. Another hint: You can't control the server's timing on torpor ticks, but you can control when the bash cycle starts.

Since this is a Velious thread, are you timing your initial bash starting cycle around the first slow attempt? Most everything in Velious is very MR and you're going to have to spend a few attempts slowing, and possibly even kiting until you can override malo with malosini (or even proc tash).

[Orruar]

With melee interruptions and resists, I still can see where people will have to cast with a bash incoming or die.

For interrupts: A mob's slowed melee timer is 8s, which dovetails nicely with the torpor and bash timers. Again, a little planning ahead of time ensures you can cast your torpor when you want to without any risk of being interrupted by either melee push or bash.

For resists: Torpor isn't resistable, and that's really the only spell that has a tough time with bash interrupts. For slows, you start reslowing a minute before it fades anyway. And it's a 3s cast time. So since you might get bashed twice in that minute, you'd maybe need to start slowing at 66s instead of 60s. This difference is trivial in the grand scheme of things.

[Orruar]

When you time spells around bash, do you assume every bash is going to hit? Say spell cast recovery time finishes and you want to canni, but your bash metrognome shows there is a bash in 2.273 (repeating) seconds. Do you cast? The Ogre doesn't give a hoot.

I mean, this isn't some age-old question without an answer. There's probably a giant sticky on Samanna that says 'ROLL OGRE.'



Since this is a Velious thread, are you timing your initial bash starting cycle around the first slow attempt? Most everything in Velious is very MR and you're going to have to spend a few attempts slowing, and possibly even kiting until you can override malo with malosini (or even proc tash).

Yes, you have to assume that every bash will hit and interrupt. You wouldn't delay casting a canni because of bash though. If it doesn't land, you get the canni. If not, oh well. There's no benefit in not casting. The only thing you really plan around the bash is torpor, since you probably want to keep that rolling 24x7 with no overlap.

Assuming you are kiting a mob around until it's slowed, which is the most common case in Velious as I understand, the first bash will come when the mob first melees you. So that's how you control when the bash cycle starts (and offset it sufficiently so it won't come in when you want to torpor).

[Splorf22]

To me the funniest thing about this thread is that Reiker is clearly right (with velious everyone will be basically stat capped, and ogre stun immunity is clearly better than barb good looks, even if it isn't much) but he got owned anyway.

[Orruar]

To me the funniest thing about this thread is that Reiker is clearly right (with velious everyone will be basically stat capped, and ogre stun immunity is clearly better than barb good looks, even if it isn't much) but he got owned anyway.

Ogre may be better than barb, but I'd say Iksar is probably the best in Velious. Regen and extra ac means you can take on beefier targets with less risk of death.

[falkun]

Ogre may be better than barb, but I'd say Iksar is probably the best in Velious. Regen and extra ac means you can take on beefier targets with less risk of death.

When MOBs double for 400, 8hp/tick won't matter. The AC bonus may help a bit over the long run, but not getting stunned from bash will mean a hell of a lot more in getting off that torpor that will save your ass than getting doubled for 388 instead of 400.

[Autotune]

When MOBs double for 400, 8hp/tick won't matter. The AC bonus may help a bit over the long run, but not getting stunned from bash will mean a hell of a lot more in getting off that torpor that will save your ass than getting doubled for 388 instead of 400.

not really

22hp adds up in just a few hits.

The main time I see the frontal stun immunity being worth it is when your target isn't slowed. However, it is still probable that you'll die from frontal stuns I imagine it wouldn't be that common for smarter players.

The extra mitigation (AC + innate regen) as an iksar very well could out weight the pros of being immune to a possible stun every 30secs or whatever.

[Orruar]

When MOBs double for 400, 8hp/tick won't matter. The AC bonus may help a bit over the long run, but not getting stunned from bash will mean a hell of a lot more in getting off that torpor that will save your ass than getting doubled for 388 instead of 400.

I can understand if you haven't read the rest of this thread, as it was shitted up rather quickly. For a recap, look at my sig. You can plan around the bash to keep torpor going without risk of bash interrupt. 8 hp per tick on a 30 min fight and ac to mitigate even just 1-2% of damage is absolutely huge in comparison.

[falkun]

Its an instantaneous vs. law of averages argument, both sides are correct. If you are running a string of bad luck and getting interrupted and/or hit for near-max every round, ogre stun immunity is going to help you more. However, over the long run, the innate regen and the AC mitigation will provide you a small boost in survivability.

I'll probably get flamed for this, but WoW's tanking classes had very similar arguments back in the BC era. The discussion concluded with groups preferring the sustained tankability of the Druid but raids preferring the "o-shit" buttons from the Warrior to save the day on raids.

[Orruar]

Its an instantaneous vs. law of averages argument, both sides are correct. If you are running a string of bad luck and getting interrupted and/or hit for near-max every round, ogre stun immunity is going to help you more. However, over the long run, the innate regen and the AC mitigation will provide you a small boost in survivability.

You make your own luck in this game. You can choose the time you cast to either completely eliminate or greatly reduce interrupts on torpor. Ogre stun resist only becomes a significant benefit on unslowable mobs. And if I'm not mistaken, pretty much every big mob we fight in Velious is slowable.

[falkun]

Completely agree - plan to execute, then execute the plan. So in most cases, the extra mitigation/regeneration from the Iksar will win out, but if shit hits the fan, it's nice to know that bash didn't just seal your fate.

[Orruar]

You again chose to ignore 80% of what I wrote.

Did you miss where I pointed out about 5 times that the example I gave is based on absolutely perfect world conditions? Such as, soloing dungeon trash like you've been bragging about in this thread?

You were coming up with all this inane timing math so I decided to play your game. And what I showed is that under all your conditions (which don't actually occur in this game), the regen is "just as good" as stun immunity. That's me proving you wrong, once again.


It was your example I was using. If you didn't think it was realistic and aren't willing to stick by it, you shouldn't have used it. And those numbers didn't show that regen is just as good as stun immunity. They showed that you gain the same number of hp in both cases, while saving 400 mana if you have innate regen. Do you stop reading paragraphs after the first sentence?


But of course the two bonuses aren't "just as good" as each other. Things don't actually happen like you're trying to say in this thread, and stun immunity gives you a huge amount of flexibility and a "get out of bullshit free" card that +8 standing regen doesn't give you.


Yep, I've already pointed out that if you're not good enough at multitasking to properly handle maintaining torpor without interrupts, you should probably go ogre. It's an easier race to play, and you can get 97-98% of the power of an Iksar with 30-40% less work. Still, if you're not timing your spells around melee cycles and bash cycles, then you're opening yourself up to interrupts, which you say are a huge problem. Even if I played ogre, I'd be aware of these cycles to reduce interrupts as much as possible, so I'm shocked an expert such as you hadn't heard of this until yesterday.


The fact that you're even mentioning mana loss really shows that you have no idea what you're doing as a shaman. Shamans don't measure efficiency in mana, they measure efficiency in time. It doesn't matter if you lose mana because it's just some extra time you have to spend to regain that mana through canni. The question is, does that extra time put you over the mob dps/hp regen threshold. Unless you're soloing something right up to the limit of what's possible, 5 Canni IVs isn't going to do that, so once again you're saying things that are irrelevant to skilled shaman. What you're saying may sound good to people who don't play the class, but to someone with high end shaman experience, everything you say is just a bunch of bullshit from some guy who managed to solo some trash mob that hundreds of people have soloed before him and now feels like he's some sort of guru of shamanic knowledge.


A good shaman considers many things. Mana is a requirement for our spells, and mana efficiency does allow you to cast more dots. Stacking more dots gives you shorter fights, which reduces the chance of something bad happening. These things may be irrelevant to you, but don't pretend they don't matter to skilled shaman.

And no other shaman on this server has solo broken and held an HS south camp, to my knowledge. It may have been done on live, but shit here is much more resistant, and I invite you to try your hand at this feat. Of course, you're just some scrub shaman from live who solo'ed WW dragons like 10 shamans on every single server did. You are such a scrub that you didn't even realize you could time spells around the bash timer, as my sig so eloquently displays. The fact that you worry about things like interrupts when any decent shaman times their torpors between melee rounds shows how little you know.


Lol, this statement is really telling. That gives you 6 Turgur's attempts if you just chain Turgur's casts together. Less since you'll be mixing other spells during the Turgur's cool-down. You're going to get fucking owned in Velious, dude. You need to prepare way before 1 minute on MR mobs, and you don't just stand there like a retard spamming the Turgur's button over and over. You begin throwing it into your torpor/canni rotation much earlier so that you're safe from being insta-gibbed in the case of bad resist luck. When slow wearing off is an instant loss, you don't depend on one slow out of 4 or 5 landing, especially in Velious fights which could take an hour or longer. You will die in those situations, there's no defying resist luck over that amount of time.


If it takes more than 1 minute, I'll learn that lesson and adjust accordingly. Nothing I solo here resists reslow more than that. Adaptation to new situations and new information is one of the great skills human beings possess. It's only too bad you can't adapt to the new information presented to you here. I suspect you actually are learning quite a bit about paying more attention to timing of your spell casts, but at this point you are just trying to save face, either to preserve your ego or your image on these forums.


Regen isn't better than stun immunity. That's been discussed to death in this thread.

Bringing up AC in Velious is a joke. You're going to be well over the priest softcap when even your rings are 30 AC.

Iksar need +180 stamina to cap.
Ogres need +128 stamina to cap.

Iksar need to be concerned about an extra 52 points of stamina to cap. Ogre can give you better gear flexibility, possibly allowing for more AC than the small Iksar bonus in the first place. Especially if you can invest in a high AC shield, which overcaps.


I knew you'd bring up AC softcap. What's the first half of that word? Soft. What does that mean? It means you still gain benefits above it. On the other hand, stamina has a hard cap. Getting above 255 means nothing. It doesn't matter if an ogre can reach AC softcap, the Iksar will still be higher and will still take less damage. Gear flexibility due to ogre STA is one other point to consider, but we've spent most of this time showing how ogre stun resist offers only very moderate gains. Anyway, I'd imagine once you're raid geared to the point where the ogre is hitting the ac softcap, the iksar has hit the STA hardcap. With buff and potion, I'm already pretty close to STA cap in kunark gear. Sure I wear a lot of +STA stuff, but with just a few raid pieces in Velious, I could be capped without any special focus given to STA at all.


Eh, if you consider getting "owned" having someone twist everything you say and quote it out of context since they can't come up with actual evidence that they are correct, then maybe. I'd rather be right regardless, so that other players don't get misinformed by players like Orruar.

If that's all it takes to "win arguments" on this forum then...

Except that I actually quoted precisely what you said and what you were arguing. You stated your position clearly that you couldn't time your spells around the bash timer. Once that argument didn't pan out, you conveniently changed it to say that playing ogre just frees you up as you don't have to worry about timing around bash. My quotes of you couldn't be more in context than they are.

[pasi]

I brought this up on an earlier post, but you're going to reach the priest softcap for AC very quick in Velious. The Mischief armor has crazy AC, as does pretty much all raid loot, and kael armor.

The +12 AC or whatever it is not only means little with the softcap, but you're also not getting the 18 AC you could get from Bramblecoat from buying a JBBP (no you're not getting a Tunare belt anytime soon either since that bitch isn't gonna be itemized until way later).

[Orruar]

I brought this up on an earlier post, but you're going to reach the priest softcap for AC very quick in Velious. The Mischief armor has crazy AC, as does pretty much all raid loot, and kael armor.

The +12 AC or whatever it is not only means little with the softcap, but you're also not getting the 18 AC you could get from Bramblecoat from buying a JBBP (no you're not getting a Tunare belt anytime soon either since that bitch isn't gonna be itemized until way later).

Yeah, but any amount of ac over the softcap is better than any amount of STA over the hardcap. I just checked and I'm at 247 STA in kunark gear with only 2 pieces (12 STA) really chosen solely because of the STA. Give me like 2 pieces of Velious gear and I'd be capped on STA and could replace my STA devoted gear.

[pasi]

It should also be noted that AC on live was hard-capped until a patch slightly before PoP. Or at least that's what the developers said back then. Who knows if they knew their own code properly, but I imagine P99 will go off what Kavhok said on the matter.

Kavhok
EQ Designer
Posts: 14

Your AC cap was lowered. That was absolutely and unequivocally a nerf. I didn't mean in any way to imply otherwise.

Let me give a more full explanation of what happened, though. Here's how the AC formula used to work before the patch immediately preceding PoP:

The AC from your items was added up, but the value used for it was hard capped based on your level. This was the same for all classes. Once you had 289 raw AC from items (or 385 as a cloth class, since they get less effect from item AC), that was it. More AC from items wouldn't do anything.

After this, it added your class bonuses (including the monk bonus, which is equivalent to your level + 5 in raw item AC), defense skill bonus, agility bonus, and the AC from spell buffs.

Total AC at this point was capped again, this time based on class. In the Kunark-era code, this was a hard cap, but sometime during Velious it was changed to a soft cap for melee classes only. The return was fairly small, though.


The pre-PoP patch did a few things:

- The cap on item AC was no longer used except at lower levels (twinking was a concern since that was before recommended level items were in heavy use).
- Shield AC was added to the class-based cap to give shields more viability
- Class AC caps were changed. Monks were lowered the most, but beastlords were lowered to the same level as druids (yes, they were nerfed too). Cleric and shaman caps were raised above druids. The caps generally followed the armor archetypes of plate/chain/leather/cloth.
- All classes were given returns on AC over the cap, not just melee classes. All casters and priests received the least, followed by the melee classes. Rogues got the same return as monks, as did berserkers when the class was added. Beastlords and rangers got slightly more, followed by bards, then knights, then warriors.

The overall goal was to make the average dps (including mitigation, avoidance, block/dodge/etc.) taken for melee classes to be approximately:
Warrior > Knight > Monk > Bard > Ranger = Beastlord = Rogue

Aggregate data from live servers at the time was taken to determine median-AC stats for each class. Parses were run against NPCs 3-4 levels lower, facing front. The characters had cleric AC and shaman agility buffs and faced the NPC. The results of the parse were consistent with statistical analysis of the formulas in code:

Class War Pal Mnk
Level 51 51 51
Raw Item AC 184 181 107
Agility 157 144 169
Dodge 3.4% 3.1% 4.4%
Block 0 % 0% 10.2%
Riposte 4.4% 3.9% 4.1%
Parry 5.2% 4.6% 0%
Skill Evasion 12.9% 11.5% 18.7%
Hit Rate 61.2% 61.3% 58.2%
Avg Hit 72.6 72.9 74.6
% Hits for Max 10.2% 10.5% 11.5%
Avg Dmg / Round 59.7 61.1 54.5
DPS 28.2 28.8 25.7


Class War Pal Mnk
Level 60 60 60
Raw Item AC 296 281 163
Agility 177 152 187
Dodge 4.3% 3.9% 4.9%
Block 0 % 0% 11.4%
Riposte 4.8% 4.3% 4.5%
Parry 5.8% 5.2% 0%
Skill Evasion 14.9% 13.4% 20.8%
Hit Rate 59.4% 59.7% 59.3%
Avg Hit 107.3 109.9 113.6
% Hits for Max 10.4% 11.7% 13.6%
Avg Dmg / Round 87.4 91.7 86.1
DPS 50.8 53.3 50


The problem was that the average plate-equipped warriors and knights had barely any lead on monks in mitigation, due to the monk bonus, but the monk still had the lead in evasion. Contrary to popular belief, this is what prompted the nerf to monk mitigation, NOT high-end monks being rampage tanks.

The changes had little effect on average level 51 warriors and knights, but since the average level 51 monk was over the new nerfed AC cap, it increased their average damage taken per hit and increased the percent chance of max hits (in the above example) to 13%. Monks who had better than this median AC were hit harder by the nerf since it lowered their effective AC even more. Level 60 monks with exceptionally high item AC (Ssra+) weren't hit quite as hard because the uncapping of item AC gave them more returns on AC over the class cap. The median level 60 changes looked like this (evasion, of course, remained the same):

Class War Pal Mnk
Avg Hit 106 108.9 121.3
% Hits for Max 9.8% 11.2% 18.4%
Avg Dmg 86.4 90.9 91.9
DPS 50.2 52.8 53.4


Several months into PoP, the nerf was partially repealed and the monk AC cap was raised to the same level as druids and beastlords. Their return on AC over the cap was left at the same level. The reasoning at the time was based on a number of factors: the percentage of hits for max made taking damage even more unpredictable and raised the likelihood of one-round deaths more than we wanted, median AC increased for nearly all levels 51+ due to the new armor in PoP and trickle-down of old armor into the economy, and other issues were brought up.

[Nordenwatch]

ITT: barb shamans yell at reikerz

[douglas1999]

Barb shams are statistically probably the worst off, but it's a pretty negligible difference and the most important thing is that they are by far the best LOOKING when you start rocking totemic\jaundiced. And it's all about looking smooth as shit.

[Hagglebaron]

The server's elite shamans seem to be mostly barbarians, so that has to say something right?

Also, agree that not looking like a fat retard (ogre) is a great reason to go for the other races!

[fadetree]

This thread is +1 for entertainment. And boobies > all imo.

[Droog007]

Troll is the only viable race to roll as a shaman - based purely on aesthetics.
Furthermore, Trolls are easily the best proportioned and best animated race in the game.

Popeye arms + wicked pierce animation + forward-leaning waddle-run = pure gaming awesome :cool:

edit:
In summary,
Trolls are fast, smooth, cool, strong, powerful, and sweet.

[Autotune]

The server's elite shamans seem to be mostly barbarians, so that has to say something right?

Also, agree that not looking like a fat retard (ogre) is a great reason to go for the other races!

That's because true badasses don't need a racial to be pro.

[azeth]

That's because true badasses don't need a racial to be pro.

Good... bad... Ogre's the shaman with the stun (immunity).

[SomberSunday]

This thread is +1 for entertainment. And boobies > all imo.

That's what I'm saying!

[Kevynne]

i personally loved my barb shaman on live; It all comes down to if you know how to play the class correctly.....
All the elite shamans are barbs b/c like most of Norrath; they are a GOOD race.
I do like ogres though XD

[Galelor]

That's because true badasses don't need a racial to be pro.

+1

[Arclanz]

Good... bad... Ogre's the shaman with the stun (immunity).

Name's Ash...Housewares

btw, very enlightening thread. If I ever roll a shaman, I'll reread this. But I was convinced by the Ogre argument. Ability to survive a tough situation > increased efficiency in leveling/recovery.

[Orruar]

Name's Ash...Housewares

btw, very enlightening thread. If I ever roll a shaman, I'll reread this. But I was convinced by the Ogre argument. Ability to survive a tough situation > increased efficiency in leveling/recovery.

Yeah, I'd suggest rereading this thread if you believe your last sentence. Ogre has little to no improved ability to survive if you know what you're doing.

[webrunner5]

If you Root Rot and send the pet in race makes no difference.

[Splorf22]

Well Svenn soloed the protector last night in Kunark gear (using the puppet strings obviously), and thats harder than Lodizal based on mqemulator not to mention you can't kite him. So I'd say intelligent use of clickies >>> stun immunity.

[quido]

I thought Allure was only supposed to charm up to 51. Was this a change from a later era or something?

[Triangle]

Allure still charms only up to 51.

[pasi]

Well Svenn soloed the protector last night in Kunark gear (using the puppet strings obviously), and thats harder than Lodizal based on mqemulator not to mention you can't kite him.

I personally think Lodizal is a harder solo for shamans than Protector mostly due to rampage. The better charm-base of Sebilis and near-double HP of Lodizal are other factors.

[quido]

Ohhh those are golems, not juggs.

[Arclanz]

The server's elite shamans seem to be mostly barbarians, so that has to say something right?

Also, agree that not looking like a fat retard (ogre) is a great reason to go for the other races!

This had me wondering, then I thought....perhaps those elite barb shamans are just Necro/Druid twinks... Will the real slim Shaman please stand up.

[Spitty]

Thinking...not your forte.

[skorge]

It's been said a million times, but here's one million and one. Ogre frontal stun immunity is so overrated. A slowed mob bashes once every 32 seconds. Half of those don't land. Many mobs kick half the time instead of bash. Stun immunity means 1 less interrupt every minute or two. The majority of interrupts come from straight damage push, not from bash. If you're playing your level 60 shaman right, the majority of your casts is canni 3. Being interrupted on canni 3 is not something to cry about. Ogres are shit.

Dude is right on. U will rarely need that frontal stun immunity EVEN in PVP! This is coming from someone who has a 50+ troll shaman on blue and a 50+ ogre shaman on red....troll shaman are better if you ask me. The regen outweighs the frontal immunity. Take it from someone who has played BOTH races to 50+. You will ALWAYS benefit from the added regen. My ogre has to sit a shit ton longer to regen his hp up after meleeing a mob, even with regen item...where as my troll can sit for just a minute and be fine (u want to have a good balance where your health regens up to full at the same time ur mana does...it doesnt happen a lot with ogre).

Take it from me, a dude who has played ogre and troll shaman on P99, that trolls > ogre...

[greatdane]

Stun immunity is particularly good when tanking several mobs. It's not like you spend your entire EQ life only ever fighting one mob at a time. You'll get trained, you'll get adds, you'll get healing aggro, all kinds of shit can cause several mobs to start hitting you. Try timing your casts around bash with four fuckers in your face. Suddenly you're getting bashed every few seconds if you aren't immune.

Not to mention the fact that ogres just have better stats, which really doesn't stop being relevant until you're balls deep into ToV. Less than ten shamans on this server will have Velious BiS gear. Contrary to popular belief, shaman gear isn't packed with stamina.

PS: iksar innate AC bonus is 42. That's as much as two and forty. And that's terrible.

[Nerosys]

I played a troll shaman through live and i did just fine, able to raid all high end content with not much problems.

However get a couple resisted slows in velious and tell me you don't want frontal stun immunity, alot of people talk through theorycrafting and not from actual playtime, Regen is great for a shaman but once you get Torpor it really doesen't make much difference whatsoever.


Rotokan

[skorge]

I played a troll shaman through live and i did just fine, able to raid all high end content with not much problems.

However get a couple resisted slows in velious and tell me you don't want frontal stun immunity, alot of people talk through theorycrafting and not from actual playtime, Regen is great for a shaman but once you get Torpor it really doesen't make much difference whatsoever.


Rotokan

u weigh less than 1% of your total play experience (the situation you said above) where you take advantage of the ogre's special ability, vs. ALWAYS and I repeat this ALWAYS having the troll's and iksar's specials, innate regen, kicking in....it's not even an option to me. Troll > Ogre 99% of the time.

Note, im saying this because the average shaman player won't bother trying to solo near impossible mobs...for straight up convenience troll is the best shaman choice. You get to wear the JBB, plus have super fast regen, and also the snare necklace as a bonus. Throw in pre-nerf guise of deceiver = winning (to some who have access to a troll with a guise).

Also note, even on Red I would prefer a troll over ogre. I know you guys who are obssesd with ogre frontal stun immunity will have a different opinion, but even on Red the regen > stun immunity. I have a 53 ogre shaman on Red and I wished I woulda rolled a troll...only reason I didnt was the negative fire damage (when the server was booming there was a shit ton of mages).

[Nerosys]

u weigh less than 1% of your total play experience (the situation you said above) where you take advantage of the ogre's special ability, vs. ALWAYS and I repeat this ALWAYS having the troll's and iksar's specials, innate regen, kicking in....it's not even an option to me. Troll > Ogre 99% of the time.

Note, im saying this because the average shaman player won't bother trying to solo near impossible mobs...for straight up convenience troll is the best shaman choice. You get to wear the JBB, plus have super fast regen, and also the snare necklace as a bonus. Throw in pre-nerf guise of deceiver = winning (to some who have access to a troll with a guise).

Also note, even on Red I would prefer a troll over ogre. I know you guys who are obssesd with ogre frontal stun immunity will have a different opinion, but even on Red the regen > stun immunity. I have a 53 ogre shaman on Red and I wished I woulda rolled a troll...only reason I didnt was the negative fire damage (when the server was booming there was a shit ton of mages).



Nobody is talking about red, obviously in pvp regen plays a different role compared to stun vs other RL pc's that's obvious and doesen't really need to be stated.

As i said regen means mostly nothing when you get torpor plus a fungi or vindi BP in velious which most forget aura of battle also gives regen.

Also you are correct it will not be a situation that arises all the time however if your goal is to later take down big baddies solo on-top of those situations where your resisted slow nets you aggro, frontal stun immunity is > regen anyday.

You can pick any race and be successful as a shaman, my point is frontal stun immunity especially going into an expansion where mobs hit alot harder therefore making regen even less of a boon is a better option for myself based on my playstyle.

[azeth]

To reiterate the facts presented in this thread:

You're a fool if you choose Regen over frontal stun immunity. People in this thread are far too defensive of their poor race choice, it's sort of funny.

If you want to min max

Cleric - Dark Elf
Rogue - Dwarf/Barb
Sham - Ogre
Warrior - Ogre

[Droog007]

... especially going into an expansion where mobs hit alot harder therefore making regen even less of a boon ...

As a troll shaman I do envy frontal stun immunity sometimes - but I have to disagree that mobs doing more DPS somehow makes increased HP regeneration less good.

[Splorf22]

To reiterate the facts posted in this thread, player skill >> race.

[azeth]

To reiterate the facts posted in this thread, player skill >> race.

logically yes, but im sorry you can't deny the perks of having Hide as a cleric, or stun immunity as a tank/soloing Sham.

[Nerosys]

As a troll shaman I do envy frontal stun immunity sometimes - but I have to disagree that mobs doing more DPS somehow makes increased HP regeneration less good.

Do you think an extra what 15 regen is going to help you more than being able to get that slow off of mobs triple hitting you? again its situational based on what your fighting and regen starts to play a > role than stun immunity on a slowed mob. my experiences are from resisted slows and soloing only... i will adjust my statement to say that regen will help more vs a slowed mob as you will actually have time to regen health but it still wont be as detrimental as not being able to cast anything while stunned.

[quido]

Barbs make the tastiest dick taters.

[Droog007]

Do you think an extra what 15 regen is going to help you more than being able to get that slow off of mobs triple hitting you?

Not arguing stun immunity vs. regen. Simply stating that DPS vs. HP regen is purely additive. You can't fight arithmetic. Either you outlast the mob or it outlasts you. Every little bit helps.

Also - triple hits interrupt Ogres just as much as they do Trolls. The only thing the Ogre racial is good for is against BASH. (not saying it isn't awesome)

[Nerosys]

Not arguing stun immunity vs. regen. Simply stating that DPS vs. HP regen is purely additive. You can't fight arithmetic. Either you outlast the mob or it outlasts you. Every little bit helps.

correct but you cant argue one withought having the facts from the other... You can't have both your innate regen and stun immunity.

And yes Jeremy even though i rolled ogre this time it was a long debate wether i wanted to go barb as they do look pimp especially with new models. White hair, White beard all norse like > all.

[fadetree]

troll : better general playing experience.
ogre : better specific situational survival.
barb : gets all the wimmins.

Take your pick.

[Hailto]

logically yes, but im sorry you can't deny the perks of having Hide as a cleric, or stun immunity as a tank/soloing Sham.

I can vouch for this, was doing Rak'Ashiir last night to finish up my shaman epic, we got a massive train somehow, killed Rak'Ashiir but wiped. Cleric used hide and was able to rez me in time to loot the scale, otherwise would have had to go back to fear and farm another tear and start over, which would have bee no bueno.

[Cars]

I think it says something when the first and second most accomplished solo shamans are barbarians. Will that hold up in Velious? probably not, but all shaman's are OP come velious so play what you like best.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=80165&highlight=solo+artist+challenge

[ccs88]

The choice is obvious here, ogre.

My question has always been how to spend the 30 points @ creation, taking Cannibalize and Torpor into account? Everyone has a different answer it seems.

The shaman wiki page (http://wiki.project1999.org/Shaman) is lacking...

[Sweetbaby Jesus]

STA til it wont go up anymore then WIS. Thats my preference.

[skorge]

Nobody is talking about red, obviously in pvp regen plays a different role compared to stun vs other RL pc's that's obvious and doesen't really need to be stated.

As i said regen means mostly nothing when you get torpor plus a fungi or vindi BP in velious which most forget aura of battle also gives regen.

First of all are you for real? Have u seen the number of players on Red? PVP action is almost non existent, it's 95% PVE there now. I've casted one spell (dot) on a player in the last 5 days there.

Secondly, how many people that make shamans take them all the way to level 60? I'm willing to be that number is 5% or less of everyone who rolls a shaman. I still stand by my decision that troll > ogre for the average player. Mainly because that person still gets to wear plate armor, gets natural regen, and even get the option to snare mobs.

When you reach level 60 on your shaman you get torpor but even then the innate regen is in effect and is a nice extra. If you are fighting mobs where you are having to rely on your frontal stun immunity to win a fight then you are fighting the wrong mobs...a troll can kill any mob an ogre can I can bet you money on that.

[skorge]

To reiterate the facts presented in this thread:

You're a fool if you choose Regen over frontal stun immunity. People in this thread are far too defensive of their poor race choice, it's sort of funny.

If you want to min max

Cleric - Dark Elf
Rogue - Dwarf/Barb
Sham - Ogre
Warrior - Ogre

Have you played both a troll and ogre here bro? I have. So I know. Regen > Stun Immunity. No need to fight mobs where u have to rely on not being stunned.

[azeth]

Have you played both a troll and ogre here bro? I have. So I know. Regen > Stun Immunity. No need to fight mobs where u have to rely on not being stunned.

Skorge all I'm saying is consider Velious farming - that's all. You will *never die to WW dragons if you're a good shaman, and an Ogre.

Given that 90% of P99 shamans probably have past EQ experience, regardless of your race you're probably all set.

Undoubtedly regen trumps stun immunity when you're playing support on Raids or Groups.

Also let's get real here - if i rolled an Ogre sham and twinked him to oblivion, Orruar, Svenn, Skorge, Jeremy, Baub etc are all 1000x better off than me still. Skill > all.

[SamwiseBanned]

skorge makes perfect sense. pvp or bluebie it doesnt matter, regen is ALWAYS on. lets say you could pick any race and pair it up with any racial, i am positive anyone with a brain would choose iksar/troll regen over ogre frontal immunity (not really immune)

edit: i am not saying Troll > ogre, im saying troll racial owns the ogres. ultimately play whatever race you want.

[skorge]

Skorge all I'm saying is consider Velious farming - that's all. You will *never die to WW dragons if you're a good shaman, and an Ogre.

Given that 90% of P99 shamans probably have past EQ experience, regardless of your race you're probably all set.

Undoubtedly regen trumps stun immunity when you're playing support on Raids or Groups.

Also let's get real here - if i rolled an Ogre sham and twinked him to oblivion, Orruar, Svenn, Skorge, Jeremy, Baub etc are all 1000x better off than me still. Skill > all.

Yea man u nailed it...so why not take regen, lol...either way both an ogre and troll can end up doing the same type of mobs equally geared, so why not go with extra regen cuz it pays off more in support and groups, raids, etc.