ASOIAF / Game of Thrones (SPOILERS INSIDE)

[Pullyn]

Sooooo good. I want moar.

[Doors]

So much shits different from the books but it's still flowing together well.

[Zadrian]

Someone gif the vadge kick!

[Pullyn]

Someone gif the vadge kick!

Ermagerd, yes.

[Funkutron5000]

Someone gif the vadge kick!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCN3CSLZuI

[Sirken]

sooo... that all happened.

[Nocsucow]

Breathe taking season ending

[heartbrand]

The Tyrionn storyline was kinda butchered in my opinion

[Florena]

i think the real surprise twist was that they didn't show stoneheart

[heartbrand]

prolly cuz the stoneheart shit is dumb as fuck



in my humble opinion



plus if they did that now then i'd have no idea what they'd fill the ten episodes with for next season cuz the 4th book does not lend itself to creating 10 entertaining television episodes

[Millburn]

i think the real surprise twist was that they didn't show stoneheart

It would be monumentally stupid for them to put Lady Stoneheart in this season finale just to have us forget about her for a whole other season or two. It's not the right time for her and it's hilarious to watch all the people freaking out about it on reddit.

[India]

The finale felt very rushed. It seems they tried to wrap up too many great storylines in that final hour, which made it all a bit disappointing.

[Sirken]

The finale felt very rushed. It seems they tried to wrap up too many great storylines in that final hour, which made it all a bit disappointing.

agreed

had they not wasted ep9, they could have done so much more

[Frieza_Prexus]

I'm pretty rustled about no LSH and no Tysha stuff, so that definitely knocks the finale down a few pegs for me. It had the makings of the best episode of the series, but fell short at the end.

However, when viewed back to back with both season 4 and season 5 blue rays, it will probably seem much better as part of a seamless story.

9, and 10 were great, but 8 was the best episode of the season and should be crowned Queen of Love & Beauty.

[Elderan]

Three-eyed crow looks TERRIBLE. What were they thinking? I mean he just looks like some old dude in some trees. In the books he is a part of the trees and only has ONE eye with a root growing through it. To me this ruined the entire scene.

The Tyrionn stuff was off for sure but wasn't too bad I guess. They finally did a Stannis scene right. Overall it wasn't my favorite episode but it was ok.

Now lets get book 6 before Season 5 please.

[India]

Now lets get book 6 before Season 5 please.


Gawd,,, PLEASE!

[Sirken]

Now lets get book 6 before Season 5 please.
QFT

[Nocsucow]

HBO is ruining my immersion.



QFT

dont watch it imo .... i say 75% of book readers are loving the series ... have heard very few complaints

[Tiggles]

dont watch it imo .... i say 75% of book readers are loving the series ... have heard very few complaints

The HBO series is better than some parts of the books in a LOT of ways. Anyone who says other wise is a contrarian nerd.

Suck a dick Feast for crows.

[heartbrand]

Wasn't a fan of the hound storyline in the show. In the show they made him sympathetic some what with occasional kind acts and heart to heart fireplace chats with arya which made what she did make her look like a total bitch. In the books he doesn't really have any redeeming qualities to him.

I don't get why they completely removed the tysha storyline, it killed the emotion of the scene with tywin at the end for me.

Dunno, some things the show does is great and an improvement on the book, others I don't get. At least it's unpredictable!

[Tiggles]

Wasn't a fan of the hound storyline in the show. In the show they made him sympathetic some what with occasional kind acts and heart to heart fireplace chats with arya which made what she did make her look like a total bitch. In the books he doesn't really have any redeeming qualities to him.

I don't get why they completely removed the tysha storyline, it killed the emotion of the scene with tywin at the end for me.

Dunno, some things the show does is great and an improvement on the book, others I don't get. At least it's unpredictable!

Yeah i thought they would touch on Tysha more

[khanable]

So book readers, what book does this season end at? What can I read up to without ruining next seasons first episode?

[Funkutron5000]

It ended with a mix between the 3rd, 4th, and 5th books all depending on which character's story line you're talking about. You can def read through the end of Storm of Swords, though.

[Tiggles]

So book readers, what book does this season end at? What can I read up to without ruining next seasons first episode?

yeah Feast of Crows and Dance of Dragon take place at the same time just on different areas, So the seasons are a mix of both books.

[khanable]

Thanks dewds

Anyone have the kindle editions? I've been advised to avoid them like the plague? Confirm deny?

[Sirken]

never read/seen the kindle editions. google the differences, as long as its the same edition as the printed on page, it should be the same.

[Sirken]

as far as tysha, we havent heard about her since season 1.

maybe us bookreaders are looking to deep into tysha. maybe thats nothing.

kinda how for years all book readers had crazy theories about Robb's wife and possible child, the show showed us that shit dont matter.

[Tiggles]

as far as tysha, we havent heard about her since season 1.

maybe us bookreaders are looking to deep into tysha. maybe thats nothing.

kinda how for years all book readers had crazy theories about Robb's wife and possible child, the show showed us that shit dont matter.

P.Sure they are cutting Lady stoneheart out of the series. I mean she isn't a big deal in the books so far.

[Sirken]

P.Sure they are cutting Lady stoneheart out of the series. I mean she isn't a big deal in the books so far.

it would have been dumb for them to add her for one scene. but since we never saw her body get fished out by nymeria, im starting to think youre right.

and that pisses me off because i hated her, and i was happy when she died. everything is her fault :(

[LulzSect]

More like Littlefinger's fault bro.

[Tiggles]

Cat is fucking terrible, And a Zombie Revenge Cat is extra terrible.

You can cut her out completely since breannes story arch has already been changes. I mean her story also fucking blows anyways so HBO couldn't make it any worse.

[Man0warr]

They probably just ran out of time once they went down the Brienne/Hound meeting up thing. I think they will have Brienne and Podrick run across her/Brotherhood without Banners on the way back to King's Landing

Because it's a TV show and not a book, they are going to have to adapt Book 4/5 as they happen in the timeline, so stuff is going to look way different order than it appears in the books from here on out.

[Sirken]

well again, they would have had time if they didnt waste ep9

[Uuruk]

Tiggles hanging on those nuts hard.

She will be in next season, but they didn't have enough time to develop her story i imagine which is why it got pushed back.

[Funkutron5000]

well again, they would have had time if they didnt waste ep9

Yeah, but Ep 9 had that giant anchor/ scythe on the side of the wall so I will love that episode forever.

[Sckrilla]

(Spoilers all) Here's a chart showing which chapters have been covered by each episode so far - Imgur (http://imgur.com/gallery/lceExOP)

Also:

'Game of Thrones' director explains Lady Stoneheart finale decision | Inside TV | EW.com (http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-why-no-lady-stoneheart/)

After being asked if the show even shot a Lady Stoneheart scene — since so many book-reading fans assumed she would appear at the episode’s end – Graves replied, “It’s a great question, because it’s all I asked about last year when I was doing [the episode with Brotherhood Without Banners leader] Beric Dondarrion — who ultimately is the person who finds Catelyn and turns her into Lady Stoneheart. But no, they didn’t do it. It was never on the docket to do this season — ever.”

Graves continued: “They [showrunners David Benioff and Dan Weiss] have such a challenge adapting the books into a really focused television experience. It’s very hard, it’s very complicated, it’s much harder then they’ve been given credit for, I think — and they do a brilliant job. But to bring back Michelle Fairley, one of the greatest actresses around, to be a zombie for a little while — and just kill people? It is really sort of, what are we doing with that? How does it play into the whole story in a way that we’re really going to like? It just didn’t end up being a part of what was going to happen this season. And finally one [more] reason: In case you didn’t notice, a lot happens this season … To add that in is something they opted out of. But what’s funny is that it was never going to be in the season, yet it took off on the Internet like it was going to happen.”

[LulzSect]

NO

do not hate on LF. and if Cat wasnt such a dumb predictable bitch, his plans wouldnt have worked

So I manipulate someone and it's their fAult shit went down. Rgr that. LoL.

[Sirken]

(Spoilers all) Here's a chart showing which chapters have been covered by each episode so far - Imgur (http://imgur.com/gallery/lceExOP)

Also:

'Game of Thrones' director explains Lady Stoneheart finale decision | Inside TV | EW.com (http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-why-no-lady-stoneheart/)

i dont like his logic on the hound. i still think hes with the silent brothers. why keep Sir Robert Strong but not the gravedigger?

[Tiggles]

i dont like his logic on the hound. i still think hes with the silent brothers. why keep Sir Robert Strong but not the gravedigger?

He is 100% a silent brother in the book no doubt.

And in the end he will slay his zombie brother to save someone

[Frieza_Prexus]

Sandor will kill Gregor in CLEGANEBOWL 2015, and then take a Knighthood from Queen Sansa after she melts his icy heart with her eyelash butterfly kisses. He will serve as the Lord Commander of her Queen's guard, and she will reward him with approving glances and warm smiles and rule happily ever after.

And then Arya bursts from the shade and jams Needle out the front of his chest like something out of an Alien movie. Valar Morghulis, asshole.

[Funkutron5000]

http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/wall-slice.gif?w=650

[Tiggles]

Hope this thread doesnt die because the show is done for the year.

What is everyones opinion on Jon Snow's parents?

Pretty sure it's R+L=J like everyone says

[Gaffin 7.0]

ive gotten bored with the show its alright though i ended up making myself watch the last few episodes

[Tiggles]

thread is going on two years old. when the show goes away the viewer types fade, the book readers hold the front lines, and the trolls give us free bumps disguised as insults.

R+L=J for sure. its the only timeline that fits.

but lets pretend we dont care about time lines or science. if it couldnt be R+L, id want it to be Ashara Dayne. and im still convinced shes not dead, dat septa lemore looking too sexy, we need Barriston to see her in order to confirm / deny

and, where the fuck is howland reed?

also, why the fuck isnt Balon dead yet?

season 5 will be interesting to say the least as they have to recombine books 4 & 5.

hopefully we get book 6 before season 5,

wtf George


The fact that it's so overwhelming obvious that R+L=J makes me hope he does not make a big "reveal" of it in the books, I'd hate to see a giant lead up to something we all know.

My guess for Balon is next season he will die in episode one and introduce his brothers and then the Dragon Horn. I think having the kingsmoot then not doing anything with it for a season will be dumb.

Calling one of the dragons comes under greyjoy control.

Also thoughts on Aegon? Real? Fake?

[Funkutron5000]

Blackfyre.

[Orruar]

SPOILER ALERT FOR SEASON 5: Hodor becomes king of the 7 realms. You heard it here first.

[beyondinfin]

I had a thought today about Stoneheart. I can totally see her final book 3 epilogue being completely cut in favor of her other scene with Brienne being her first. Maybe we will hear from Frey about someone killing his family members but I can see them holding back on account of having to hire Beric, michelle and the guy who plays that red priest (i forget his name) for what would have been 1 scene. The real question is how long until Brienne gets her newest mission?

This show really is gonna be it's own thing. Divorce yourself from the books cause otherwise you will be disappointed by the little things (too bad). Me and my brother talked for awhile about how the hell things will play out in season 5 with all the strange timeline overlaps etc with each book. I think regardless of how things are presented (like shit is gonna be moved up in time, and some back to fit) that by season 7 we will be seeing all new post book 5 stuff.

On a personal note Im really bummed they cut Coldhands. I think it would have made more sense for Bran to find Coldhands instead of the 3 eyed raven. Then next season within 1 or 2 episodes he would reach his Yoda master. That's my only big complaint with how they adapted the end of ASOS. Visually Coldhands would have been interesting. I was wondering if anyone thinks Coldhands being cut might actually mean that he is indeed not Benjen?

[Tiggles]

I had a thought today about Stoneheart. I can totally see her final book 3 epilogue being completely cut in favor of her other scene with Brienne being her first. Maybe we will hear from Frey about someone killing his family members but I can see them holding back on account of having to hire Beric, michelle and the guy who plays that red priest (i forget his name) for what would have been 1 scene. The real question is how long until Brienne gets her newest mission?

This show really is gonna be it's own thing. Divorce yourself from the books cause otherwise you will be disappointed by the little things (too bad). Me and my brother talked for awhile about how the hell things will play out in season 5 with all the strange timeline overlaps etc with each book. I think regardless of how things are presented (like shit is gonna be moved up in time, and some back to fit) that by season 7 we will be seeing all new post book 5 stuff.

On a personal note Im really bummed they cut Coldhands. I think it would have made more sense for Bran to find Coldhands instead of the 3 eyed raven. Then next season within 1 or 2 episodes he would reach his Yoda master. That's my only big complaint with how they adapted the end of ASOS. Visually Coldhands would have been interesting. I was wondering if anyone thinks Coldhands being cut might actually mean that he is indeed not Benjen?


There's a lot of small characters that are teased to be more relevant in the books that are cut from the show.

Kinda like patchface and his mermaids

[Tiggles]

I think the three remaining tagaryans will each inherit a dragon and go to against each other.

[Auvdar]

Recap of season 4,.. in 28 seconds!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4oQzTGTc_g

[Sirken]

The fact that it's so overwhelming obvious that R+L=J makes me hope he does not make a big "reveal" of it in the books, I'd hate to see a giant lead up to something we all know.

My guess for Balon is next season he will die in episode one and introduce his brothers and then the Dragon Horn. I think having the kingsmoot then not doing anything with it for a season will be dumb.

Calling one of the dragons comes under greyjoy control.

Also thoughts on Aegon? Real? Fake?

thats what he gets for taking so long between books.

agreed 100%

no. Vic will make a deal with Dany, help him depose Euron and gain control of the Iron Isles in exchange for his ships taking her to westeros, maybe he'll throw in the horn. he will not blow that horn after seeing what it did to the last guy. sec on the dragons.

Aegon, i could see him being a legit targ, or a blackfyre, or neither and a straight up imposter raised to believe he was Aegon. either way, greyjoys wont end up with a dragon. they are gonna be with Dany, Jon, and either Aegon(if hes a legit Targ), or Bran(could control a dragon the way he controls his wolf). ((yes i know theres a tinfoil theory that Tyrion could be Targ, and the third head of the dragon. get that crap outta here :P ))

[Rust1d?]

Just a quick question regarding season 4. If Jaime never lost his hand, and was chosen by Tyrion to fight the mountain, who would have won?

[Nocsucow]

Just a quick question regarding season 4. If Jaime never lost his hand, and was chosen by Tyrion to fight the mountain, who would have won?

i dont think jaime is as good as people think he is ... in the small fight between him and stark i think stark would of got him in the end ... just my opinion

[Sirken]

so, first things first, any good fighter has a chance against another good fighter. if Gregor and Jaime had fought 10 times, im sure jaime would have won 3-4 of them.

Jaime mentions in the book that he feels theres only 3 people alive that could beat him, and im pretty sure they are Great Jon Umber, Barristan Selmy, and Gregor Clegane.

Oberyn wouldnt have come to mind for jaime when he made the comment since the south wasnt involved, and for all we know didnt exist in GRRMs mind when he wrote the jaime chapter.

fun fact, GRRM has said that in their primes, the best two fighters were Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne, and that itd be a coin flip each time, unless Arthur Dayne has Dawn, in which case Arthur Dayne would have won.

[Rust1d?]

I think Gregor beats Jamie because of the sheer size. Oberyn was able to technically beat him because of the long spear. Sword vs sword I think gregor wins. I also think Ned would have beat him in that fight too.

[Sirken]

LEAKED VIDEO TRANSCRIPT FOR TYENE AND OBARA AUDITION TAPE
(SEASON 5 SPOILER)

Transcript of Video

Tyene: He has a good voice.
Obara: He's a singer, if he was a fighter we might've been in trouble.
Bronn: It's against my code to hurt women.
Obara: It's amazing how many men we beat seem to have this code.
Bronn: I wouldn't say you beat me.
Tyene: And how is your arm?
Bronn: Wonderful. Wouldn't feel right to leave Dorne without a new scar.
Obara: You think you're leaving Dorne?
Bronn: No great hurry. Dornish women are the most beautiful in the world.
Tyene: Thank you.
Bronn: I said Dornish women, I didn't say you.
Tyene: I'm not the most beautiful woman you have ever seen?
Bronn: I've seen quite a few women in all the Seven Kingdoms.
Tyene: Tell me one woman more beautiful than I am.
Bronn: Well, now in King's Landing there was an absolute...
Tyene: There was a what? In King's Landing you were saying...
Bronn: Was I?
Tyene: ...there is a woman more beautiful than I am.
Bronn: Was there? My memory's not what it was earlier.
Tyene: And how is your arm now.
Bronn: You seem concerned with it. You must really like me.
Tyene: And how is your head?
Bronn: My head? You don't even want to know what's going on in there.
Tyene: What was that, are you sure you're feeling alright?
Bronn: Sure, a bit woozy but that's to be expected after a good dust-up.
Tyene: Your nose is bleeding.
Bronn: It's not it's the dry air.
Tyene: My dagger was coated with a special ointment from Asshai. It's called the Long Farewell. It can take some time to work some times several days. But if one single drop makes contact with the skin...death.
Tyene: The only antidote. Who is the most beautiful woman in the world? Who? Who, sorry?
Bronn: You.
She takes whatever the antidote it is from or off of her necklace and gives it to him.
Tyene: Don't drop it. I think you're very handsome as well.
She blows him a kiss and laughs.


An Obara audition tape was also leaked, revealing that Jaime will be in Dorne in Season 5. I cannot find the audition tape, but here is the transcript:



OBARA – Admit defeat Tyene. Nym’s mother taught her the whip before the knife and fork.



Woman Off Camera – Mother, Nym, Obara.



OBARA- Will it be war?

Woman Off Camera – Prince Doran will weep for your father but nothing else. We must avenge Oberyn ourselves.

OBARA – Without Doran we have no army to march against the Lannisters.

Woman Off Camera – We don’t need an army to start a war. Queen Cersei loathes everyone and we are one of them. Queen Cersei loves her children and we have one of them (my edits)

OBARA – Now you may have a problem.

Woman Off Camera – What’s that?

OBARA – A ship’s captain came to me in Plankytown claiming to have information to sell. I paid. He told me he smuggled Jaime Lannister into Dorne. Now he paid.

Woman Off Camera – The Kingslayer did not go to Prince Doran?

OBARA – No, they rode him ashore in secret.

Woman Off Camera – Why? He did not know. You must chose Doran’s way and peace or my way and war.

OBARA – When I was a child. Oberyn came to take me to court. I had never seen this man before yet he called himself my father. My mother wept and said you are too young and a girl. Oberyn tossed his spear at my feet and said girl or boy we fight our battles but the gods let us chose our weapons. My father pointed to the spear and to my mother’s tears. I made my choice long ago.



There has been a leaked Tryst audition tape found here: http://vimeo.com/96141768

[Lojik]

fun fact, GRRM has said that in their primes, the best two fighters were Barristan Selmy and Arthur Dayne, and that itd be a coin flip each time, unless Arthur Dayne has Dawn, in which case Arthur Dayne would have won.

Well he's wrong

[Nocsucow]

game of thrones/ magic the gathering type of game would be neat

[Tiggles]

game of thrones/ magic the gathering type of game would be neat

Fantasy flight has a game that came out way before the show. It's a "living card game" meaning they don't have booster packs you buy the set kinda like a board game and can make your own decks.
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite.asp?eidm=10

[LulzSect]

based on the transcripts looks like they finally heavily deviated from the books

we knew it was gonna happen

wonder what bronn is doing in dorne though and the kingslayer not keeping the kings peace in the 7 kingdoms

i am already mad

shows over

[Nocsucow]

based on the transcripts looks like they finally heavily deviated from the books

we knew it was gonna happen

wonder what bronn is doing in dorne though and the kingslayer not keeping the kings peace in the 7 kingdoms

i am already mad

shows over

bro take it easy lol .... it cant be that serious

[Frieza_Prexus]

I think Gregor beats Jamie because of the sheer size. Oberyn was able to technically beat him because of the long spear. Sword vs sword I think gregor wins. I also think Ned would have beat him in that fight too.

Ned was not one of the sword fighting greats. He's very competent because he's a trained and experienced battlefield commander, but he's no where close to that elite level.

[Sirken]

and remember, Ned only walked away from that tower because Dayne was outnumbered 7 to 3.

5 of Ned's 7 people died while killing Daynes party of 3.

they cut Ned's dreams from the show, but here's what happened at the tower for anyone that wants to see/hear it:
http://youtu.be/v9Mp8MzAjAY

[Elderan]

and remember, Ned only walked away from that tower because Dayne was outnumbered 7 to 3.

5 of Ned's 7 people died while killing Daynes party of 3.

they cut Ned's dreams from the show, but here's what happened at the tower for anyone that wants to see/hear it:
http://youtu.be/v9Mp8MzAjAY

One theory is that Howland Reed warged into Arthur Dayne allowing Ned to kill him. Another is that Arthur Dayne is still alive and that Meera Reed is Jon Snows Twin.

I clearly have been reading http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/ too much.

[Tiggles]

One theory is that Howland Reed warged into Arthur Dayne allowing Ned to kill him. Another is that Arthur Dayne is still alive and that Meera Reed is Jon Snows Twin.

I clearly have been reading http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/ too much.

Arthur dayne is dead, he just got overwhelmed and killed. Ashara Dayne is alive and married Howland Reed living with them in secret.

She is the mother of Jojen and Meera reed.

[Nocsucow]

Welp, first Sunday without GoT fucking sucked but, my wife started watching GoT and she's on E10 of first season and she's loving it....so I get to re watch all of them with her... And she thinks Jon snow is sexy as fuck lol guess I need to go buy a black curly wig and a 2h battle sword

[Sirken]

One theory is that Howland Reed warged into Arthur Dayne allowing Ned to kill him. Another is that Arthur Dayne is still alive and that Meera Reed is Jon Snows Twin.

I clearly have been reading http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/ too much.

for reference, the books tell us that 1 in 10,000 can warg, and 1 in 10,000 wargs can greensight. just because Jojen has certain abilities doesn't mean his father had them. also warging into people is a very rare ability, one that i really doubt Howland had.

/tinfoil on

so i have never noticed it before, but Meera and Jon are indeed the same age (both are 16 years old when Eddard gets executed). and IF Lyanna had twins, i could MAYBE see Eddard allowing Howland to raise the kid to protect her. Furthermore IF Lyanna was knight of the laughing tree (which i do believe she was, i also believe Rhaegar did find her, discovered it was a female, fell in love and came back with only the armor saying he found it stuffed inside an empty tree) then that means Lyanna protected Howland at the tourney of harrenhall, giving him reason to take on Lyanna's daughter as his own ward. (for those curious, Jojen is ~3.5 years younger than Meera).

/tinfoil off

however, for Meera to be the product of R&L, she should have grey or purple eyes, and she should have dark brown or silver blond hair. Meera and Jojen both have regular brown hair and both have green eyes. we are never told who their mother is, and we are never given a description of Howland Reed. So while anything is possible, i can not believe they are related, as genetic traits are one thing that this author has never overlooked.

[Sirken]

Arthur dayne is dead, he just got overwhelmed and killed. Ashara Dayne is alive and married Howland Reed living with them in secret.

She is the mother of Jojen and Meera reed.

yea, Arthur Dayne is confirmed dead.

as far as Ashara, there are two main theories:
Some reader of the series believe Lemore is the mother of Tyene Sand. Lemore is a Septa who has given birth before, as evidenced by the stretchmarks on her belly seen by Tyrion Lannister. She is also roughly in her mid 40's, and Tyene is in her early 20's, which would lend further support to the theory.

Evidence against

Tyene Sand has golden hair. Oberyn Martell and Lemore both have dark hair, making it unlikely that their daughter would have light hair. It is possible that Lemore dyes her hair to further conceal her identity, but that seems unnecessarily cautious. Further, if Lemore were Tyene's mother, it would be strange for her not to have communicated with her daughter or anyone else back in Dorne to give support to Aegon's legitimacy.

Ashara Dayne

Another possibility is that Lemore is actually Ashara Dayne, who did not in fact die after Robert’s Rebellion, but went to aid Aegon in Essos. However when observing Lemore on the Shy Maid Tyrion Lannister never makes note of her eye colour which, if she were Ashara, would be very striking, as Ashara's eyes were described as being a "haunting violet" colour.

the only chance we will have to confirm Lemore = Ashara, is for Barristan to see Lemore. as he was in love with Ashara, i think hed recognize her anywhere, through any disguise.

[Tiggles]

for reference, the books tell us that 1 in 10,000 can warg, and 1 in 10,000 wargs can greensight. just because Jojen has certain abilities doesn't mean his father had them. also warging into people is a very rare ability, one that i really doubt Howland had.

/tinfoil on

so i have never noticed it before, but Meera and Jon are indeed the same age (both are 16 years old when Eddard gets executed). and IF Lyanna had twins, i could MAYBE see Eddard allowing Howland to raise the kid to protect her. Furthermore IF Lyanna was knight of the laughing tree (which i do believe she was, i also believe Rhaegar did find her, discovered it was a female, fell in love and came back with only the armor saying he found it stuffed inside an empty tree) then that means Lyanna protected Howland at the tourney of harrenhall, giving him reason to take on Lyanna's daughter as his own ward. (for those curious, Jojen is ~3.5 years younger than Meera).

/tinfoil off

however, for Meera to be the product of R&L, she should have grey or purple eyes, and she should have dark brown or silver blond hair. Meera and Jojen both have regular brown hair and both have green eyes. we are never told who their mother is, and we are never given a description of Howland Reed. So while anything is possible, i can not believe they are related, as genetic traits are one thing that this author has never overlooked.

Here is the Theory that Howland Reed and Ashara Dayne are the parents of Jojen and Meera Reed.


The Tourney at Harrenhal: Howland Reed is watching Ashara and actually makes a list of all the people that she dances with. This has no bearing on the rest of the KotLT story, and yet it is mentioned. Why? Meera, who is telling the story, would have no reason to mention this to Bran and yet she does. Why?


We are told by Barristan that Ashara had a daughter. If that daughter was not stillborn, and lived, Meera is one of the only candidates, due to being the right age and gender. She is about nine or ten months older than Jon, and therefore one of the only known characters born in the beginning of Robert's Rebellion.


Jojen got grey water fever, which is odd because while it affects the Ironborn, you would think that the crannogmen would be immune to it. His eyes are moss-green, which is a color given to mark seers. But what color were they before the fever?


Barristan Selmy, who loved Ashara, remarks that: "She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time." Considering how many things he has been wrong about so far, is he wrong about this too? Did Ashara choose an actual "mudman"?


We are told that Ned would have died at the TOJ but for Howland Reed. What does this mean? Was it crannog magic, or was Howland Arthur's brother-in-law?


Why was Ned so quick to defend Ashara if R+L=J? It would make sense if she was the wife of his bannerman.


There is specific language over and over again with regards to the Reeds and Bran. Towers, Stars, Falling, and Summer come up constantly. Hints for Starfall, Palestone Tower, and the Summer Sea, perhaps?


The Dornish are looked down on by the other kingsdoms, as are the crannogmen. The crannogmen are reviled for their guerrilla tactics, which are considered cowardly, something the Dornish also have in common with them. Howland has spent his life among the water, just as Ashara spent hers on the edges of the Summer Sea. House Reed also has an ongoing feud with House Frey, just as House Dayne has an ongoing feud with House Oakheart. Common ground for a romance?


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

[LulzSect]

great theories

i love it

[Pringles]

I binged S4 over the weekend, so now I can read a bit more of this thread again :)

Wow.... great season, probably my favorite. The wall battle was so good. However I couldnt help but feel this about Oberyn (I was googling for inigo and going to make my own but someone beat me to it, so apparently I am not alone):

http://img.pandawhale.com/120555-Oberyn-Martell-Inigo-Montoya-p-R5t0.jpeg

[Sirken]

Here is the Theory that Howland Reed and Ashara Dayne are the parents of Jojen and Meera Reed.


The Tourney at Harrenhal: Howland Reed is watching Ashara and actually makes a list of all the people that she dances with. This has no bearing on the rest of the KotLT story, and yet it is mentioned. Why? Meera, who is telling the story, would have no reason to mention this to Bran and yet she does. Why?


We are told by Barristan that Ashara had a daughter. If that daughter was not stillborn, and lived, Meera is one of the only candidates, due to being the right age and gender. She is about nine or ten months older than Jon, and therefore one of the only known characters born in the beginning of Robert's Rebellion.


Jojen got grey water fever, which is odd because while it affects the Ironborn, you would think that the crannogmen would be immune to it. His eyes are moss-green, which is a color given to mark seers. But what color were they before the fever?


Barristan Selmy, who loved Ashara, remarks that: "She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud. You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time." Considering how many things he has been wrong about so far, is he wrong about this too? Did Ashara choose an actual "mudman"?


We are told that Ned would have died at the TOJ but for Howland Reed. What does this mean? Was it crannog magic, or was Howland Arthur's brother-in-law?


Why was Ned so quick to defend Ashara if R+L=J? It would make sense if she was the wife of his bannerman.


There is specific language over and over again with regards to the Reeds and Bran. Towers, Stars, Falling, and Summer come up constantly. Hints for Starfall, Palestone Tower, and the Summer Sea, perhaps?


The Dornish are looked down on by the other kingsdoms, as are the crannogmen. The crannogmen are reviled for their guerrilla tactics, which are considered cowardly, something the Dornish also have in common with them. Howland has spent his life among the water, just as Ashara spent hers on the edges of the Summer Sea. House Reed also has an ongoing feud with House Frey, just as House Dayne has an ongoing feud with House Oakheart. Common ground for a romance?


http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

1) Meera is surprised Bran hasnt heard this story because it also involves Brandon Stark asking Ashara to dance with Eddard, and while she agrees, she prefers Brandon. we also have a mention from Barristan describing that he had eyes for her that night as well, but not the balls to act on it. Ashara is important, agreed. but i truly believe she is disguised as Septa Lemore and traveling with Connington and Aegon.

2) agreed. the time line fits for her birth. but nothing else. Howland Reed would have had to stay behind in Dorne after Eddard returned Dawn to the Dayne family. Jon was conceived ~9 months before eddard shows up at the tower. Meera would have to have been conceived shortly after, and would have had to leave with Howland shortly after being born as Ashara slew herself (or faked her death)

3) Ashara died (or left westeros) in 283AC, Jojen is born in 286AC

4) but Howland isnt from Dorne. hes from greywater watch in the the neck.

5) it means that had it been left to straight 1 v 1, Arthur Dayne would murder Eddard 10 times outta 10 times.

6) because eddard has had a thing for Ashara since the tourny. remember he wasnt suppose to marry cat at that point as Brandon and their father were still alive.

7) maybe. or possible red herrings

8) a lot in common for sure. but, still not possible due to time and geography. Jojen cant be ashara's kid, Meera only can be if Howland stayed at least 9 months with the daynes after Eddard dropped off Dawn.

[Sirken]

jaqan h'gar coming back next season?
It appears that an unexpected return may be in the works for the Faceless Man known to viewers as Jaqen H’ghar.

According to the German agency of Tom Wlaschiha, the actor is shooting a 2014 episode of the crime solving series Tatort entitled, “Borowski und die armen Kinder von Gaarden, ” and after that, in August, he’ll begin filming on Game of Thrones. The agency notes that Tom is in the main cast. Given that the website updates their News sections regularly with 2014 projects, and that Wlaschiha has appeared in several notable productions since filming GoT in 2011 (with his appearance airing in 2012), it does look like Arya’s mentor is returning to the show next year.

The actor’s return has not been officially confirmed by HBO

[Nocsucow]

Sirkdawg, my wife just finished season 2 and she's in love with the show.... She loved the battle of the black water and loves the imp character... Told her season 3 and 4 is a wild ride so were gonna try to finish them this week

[Sirken]

shes gonna cry at the end of 3

[Ryndar]

for reference, the books tell us that 1 in 10,000 can warg, and 1 in 10,000 wargs can greensight. just because Jojen has certain abilities doesn't mean his father had them. also warging into people is a very rare ability, one that i really doubt Howland had.

/tinfoil on

so i have never noticed it before, but Meera and Jon are indeed the same age (both are 16 years old when Eddard gets executed). and IF Lyanna had twins, i could MAYBE see Eddard allowing Howland to raise the kid to protect her. Furthermore IF Lyanna was knight of the laughing tree (which i do believe she was, i also believe Rhaegar did find her, discovered it was a female, fell in love and came back with only the armor saying he found it stuffed inside an empty tree) then that means Lyanna protected Howland at the tourney of harrenhall, giving him reason to take on Lyanna's daughter as his own ward. (for those curious, Jojen is ~3.5 years younger than Meera).

/tinfoil off

however, for Meera to be the product of R&L, she should have grey or purple eyes, and she should have dark brown or silver blond hair. Meera and Jojen both have regular brown hair and both have green eyes. we are never told who their mother is, and we are never given a description of Howland Reed. So while anything is possible, i can not believe they are related, as genetic traits are one thing that this author has never overlooked.

Aegon (according to Tyrion) is also the same age as Jon/Meera.

Howland used a net to help Eddard against Dayne. Meera uses this ame tactic against Summer in the God's Wood, saying her Father taught her.

Eddard killed a disabled Dayne, when he couldn't defend himself, because "The King's Guard do not bend the knee so easily/flee."

Eddard told Ashara the real way her brother died, for the love his Brother Brandon and Her had. This caused her to kill herself.

[Sirken]

1) Aegon is actually older than both of them. Jon was born after KL was sacked. Aegon was already an infant at that point. Elio Garcia, whom works for and with GRRM has stated that Aegon was born in 282AC, and Jon was born almost a full year later in 283AC. Meera was also 283 AC, but we are never told if it was before or after Jon. And Dany a year later in 284AC.

2) A+

3) the not bending / fleeing comment had nothing to do with being "disabled" and was said before the battle even started. it was referencing the kings guard that ran off with Elia, Rhaenys, and of course, baby Aegon.

4) the "real" way? he had a sword put through his chest and was outnumbered 7 to 3. thats the "real" way he died right there. as far as her killing herself, not buying it. im thinking it was a story made up so she could travel with Jon Connington to protect Aegon. enter from stage left, Septa Lemore.

[Sirken]

omg this: http://youtu.be/VmSUC0lHvn4

[Sidelle]

Watched the finale again today. I cringed irl when the Hound kicked Brienne in the clam. That shit hurts just as much as a guy getting kicked in the balls. Overall I thought it was an awesome fight, though. Clegane gets his ass kicked by a woman. Lol. Good stuff there. He's actually one of my favorites though so I really hope he'll reappear in the future like the books seem to hint at.

Goddamn.. hate waiting so long between seasons.

[Sidelle]

And what is this shit?! The seasons are getting shorter and shorter. I'm feeling cheated. :(

[Ryndar]

1) Aegon is actually older than both of them. Jon was born after KL was sacked. Aegon was already an infant at that point. Elio Garcia, whom works for and with GRRM has stated that Aegon was born in 282AC, and Jon was born almost a full year later in 283AC. Meera was also 283 AC, but we are never told if it was before or after Jon. And Dany a year later in 284AC.

2) A+

3) the not bending / fleeing comment had nothing to do with being "disabled" and was said before the battle even started. it was referencing the kings guard that ran off with Elia, Rhaenys, and of course, baby Aegon.

4) the "real" way? he had a sword put through his chest and was outnumbered 7 to 3. thats the "real" way he died right there. as far as her killing herself, not buying it. im thinking it was a story made up so she could travel with Jon Connington to protect Aegon. enter from stage left, Septa Lemore.

Yes, if Aegon is the real Aegon.

But, remember when Tyrion meets Aegon he doesn't liken him to be old enough to be the original deal. He explicitly thinks to himself he's 15/16 instead of 18/19.

[Sirken]

Watched the finale again today. I cringed irl when the Hound kicked Brienne in the clam. That shit hurts just as much as a guy getting kicked in the balls. Overall I thought it was an awesome fight, though. Clegane gets his ass kicked by a woman. Lol. Good stuff there. He's actually one of my favorites though so I really hope he'll reappear in the future like the books seem to hint at. Goddamn.. hate waiting so long between seasons.
at least its not 4-5 years per season :(

And what is this shit?! The seasons are getting shorter and shorter. I'm feeling cheated. :(
what are u talking aboot? always 10 episodes :P


Yes, if Aegon is the real Aegon.
But, remember when Tyrion meets Aegon he doesn't liken him to be old enough to be the original deal. He explicitly thinks to himself he's 15/16 instead of 18/19.
well yes, if aegons the real aegon. you said Aegon was the same age, i was pointing out that he would not in fact of been the same age.

[Sidelle]

what are u talking aboot? always 10 episodes :P

Well shit... I guess you're right. Ten episodes is the new norm for seasons on HBO. For some reason I thought there were only 9 this season. My mistake. I blame it on the fact that for this past month I've been recovering from major surgery. Have been on lots of pain meds due to some complications.

Ok, so one more thing about seasons on HBO. You watched Rome, right? Season one had 12 episodes. That was the norm back then with all HBO series. Season two only had 10 because the show was cancelled and they had to wrap it up as best they could. It sucked the way they rushed it, although I get why - that show was very expensive to produce (amazing show btw, they did a great job except for how they ended it).

And look at True Blood, another example of being cheated a little by HBO. Seasons one through five had 12 episodes. Season six they started chopping it down to 10. Honestly, I don't care much about True Blood since I stopped being a fan a long time ago, but it's a good example of what I'm talking about.

I pay out the ass for my cable so it just irritates me when they pull this shit. They get me all addicted to their shows and then cut back on what they deliver. Twelve episode Game of Thrones would have been fabulous!

That's all, I'm done crying about it now. Lol.

[Sirken]

Well shit... I guess you're right. Ten episodes is the new norm for seasons on HBO. For some reason I thought there were only 9 this season. My mistake. I blame it on the fact that for this past month I've been recovering from major surgery. Have been on lots of pain meds due to some complications.

Ok, so one more thing about seasons on HBO. You watched Rome, right? Season one had 12 episodes. That was the norm back then with all HBO series. Season two only had 10 because the show was cancelled and they had to wrap it up as best they could. It sucked the way they rushed it, although I get why - that show was very expensive to produce (amazing show btw, they did a great job except for how they ended it).

And look at True Blood, another example of being cheated a little by HBO. Seasons one through five had 12 episodes. Season six they started chopping it down to 10. Honestly, I don't care much about True Blood since I stopped being a fan a long time ago, but it's a good example of what I'm talking about.

I pay out the ass for my cable so it just irritates me when they pull this shit. They get me all addicted to their shows and then cut back on what they deliver. Twelve episode Game of Thrones would have been fabulous!

That's all, I'm done crying about it now. Lol.

they agreed on 10 instead of 12 because they were worried about fluff (could be avoided by not cutting things like coldhands, belwas, and stoneheart)

true blood should have ended after season 3. shit got real dumb will billith. the simple truth is that show went so far off the books, its just a retarded mess of shit at this point. if you want REAL examples, go look up what happened to shows like Deadwood and Rome. those are two shows that were actually fucked by HBO. trueblood was fucked by the bad writing, as it equals less viewers, which equals less money, and that signals the end.

the only thing that really worries me is GoT's CGI budget. those dragons are expensive as hell, i dunno if people realize that, and thats why most of the time we wont see all 3 dragons in the same scene. i cant even imagine how much they wasted on dragging out the scene with Dany chaining up the dragons. in later seasons, those dragons do stuff. hopefully it doesnt effect the rest of the budget, but i fear it will. eventually HBO will stop upping their budget.

AND i'm glad your recovering from the surgery well! we missed u in this thread!

<3

[Sidelle]

AND i'm glad your recovering from the surgery well! we missed u in this thread!

<3

Thanks, Sirken. It's good to be back. :)

[Sirken]

Blackfyre Rebellion - http://youtu.be/2Ls8P5NtO-A

[Pringles]

Sorry if this has already been posted, but.... awesome. http://vimeo.com/100095868

[Sirken]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/laraparker/game-of-thrones-pickup-lines

[India]

Sorry if this has already been posted, but.... awesome. http://vimeo.com/100095868

Ok that was amazing!

[Millburn]

Ok that was amazing!

Wow yeah that was a lot of fun to watch.

[Pringles]

Wow yeah that was a lot of fun to watch.

Ya, I was kinda disappointed the dragon's weren't real :(

[Sirken]

Ya, I was kinda disappointed the dragon's weren't real :(

yea. im done

[Sirken]

Golden Company Video - http://youtu.be/PJaSmdswJI8?t=45s

[Sidelle]

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/07/GIF-Game-of-thrones---Im-crushing-your-head.gif

[Millburn]

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/07/GIF-Game-of-thrones---Im-crushing-your-head.gif

Hahahaha

Man I really miss Kids in the Hall.

[Sidelle]

Used to crack me up when they dressed up as girls. They were great. Lol

[Patriam1066]

Didn't read through all of this but I read a bunch of it, and I was curious on thoughts about something:

I was pretty convinced from reading the books that Coldhands was Benjen Stark, but there were some seemingly BS fan theories about Daario Naharis being recast in the 4th season (of the show) so that he'd look more like Benjen... IE Benjen saw the others beyond the wall, and went to find Dany since he believed she and her dragons are the only way to defeat them.

I still think its total BS, but I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts? I definitely think Daario is more important than some random sellsword who becomes Dany's lover...

[Patriam1066]

So your theory is that Benjen abandoned the wall, crossed the narrow sea, took up work as a sellsword, moved up through the ranks, all for the opportunity to get close to Danny. And then was like... before I tell her about the others and why we need them dragons at the wall, let me tap that ass a few times.

Haha dick, making me sound stupid.

Yes, I realize it's a stretch, especially in a novel with incestuous kings and queens born of dragon blood who are immune to fire...

My main question is, who is Daario Naharis? I welcome better theories than the one I posited. To be clear, I think Benjen is Coldhands, I'm just thinking there is a lot more to the crew hanging around Dany in Essos. There are motivations intimated for Barristan and Jorah, but what about Daario? This dude kills his fellow captains and joins Dany purely out of devotion to her beauty?

[LulzSect]

I mean... that's what I would have done.

[Sirken]

Haha dick, making me sound stupid.

Yes, I realize it's a stretch, especially in a novel with incestuous kings and queens born of dragon blood who are immune to fire...

My main question is, who is Daario Naharis? I welcome better theories than the one I posited. To be clear, I think Benjen is Coldhands, I'm just thinking there is a lot more to the crew hanging around Dany in Essos. There are motivations intimated for Barristan and Jorah, but what about Daario? This dude kills his fellow captains and joins Dany purely out of devotion to her beauty?

Benjen can;t be coldhands, Leaf says that CH "died long ago". TCotF live for hundreds and hundreds of year, Benjen has been missing at most 40 months.

as far as Daario being someone else, its possible. and to pull it off on a tv show they would have to switch actors (ie: the reason the barristan story was changed, you cant hide him behind a beard and expect viewers to not notice).

Benjen may not be dead, but hes not daario or CH.

furthermore, Jorah would recognize a westerosi man, even in disguise jorah would hear the accent.

and FINALLY, Barristan should actually recognize Benjen as they shoulda both in Winterfell together a few years ago when King Robert asked Eddard Stark to be hand of the king, as barristan was still in the kingsguard at that time.

[Patriam1066]

Benjen can;t be coldhands, Leaf says that CH "died long ago". TCotF live for hundreds and hundreds of year, Benjen has been missing at most 40 months.

as far as Daario being someone else, its possible. and to pull it off on a tv show they would have to switch actors (ie: the reason the barristan story was changed, you cant hide him behind a beard and expect viewers to not notice).

Benjen may not be dead, but hes not daario or CH.

furthermore, Jorah would recognize a westerosi man, even in disguise jorah would hear the accent.

and FINALLY, Barristan should actually recognize Benjen as they shoulda both in Winterfell together a few years ago when King Robert asked Eddard Stark to be hand of the king, as barristan was still in the kingsguard at that time.

Good stuff about Benjen/Coldhands, I just re-read the part with the Children of the Forest, missed that before.

I really don't know, maybe Daario is Jaqen. George R.R.R.R.R.R. Martin is a great author; I don't think he's so misogynistic or simplistic to just add Daario as a boy-toy for Dany, without him serving some greater purpose. But yeah, I really don't have much evidence, I'm just grasping at straws for lack of a convincing theory as to his identity.

WTB The Winds of Winter

[Sirken]

Good stuff about Benjen/Coldhands, I just re-read the part with the Children of the Forest, missed that before.

I really don't know, maybe Daario is Jaqen. George R.R.R.R.R.R. Martin is a great author; I don't think he's so misogynistic or simplistic to just add Daario as a boy-toy for Dany, without him serving some greater purpose. But yeah, I really don't have much evidence, I'm just grasping at straws for lack of a convincing theory as to his identity.

WTB The Winds of Winter

hehe, jaqen h'ghar is actually disguised as Pate by the end of book 4.

follow me here, Jaqen changes his face in front of Arya in book 2, and we are told he now has a hooked nose and thick, black, curly hair, with a slight scar on his right cheek. This is an identical description to that of the character called by the The Alchemist (The Alchemist has a hooked nose and thick, black, curly hair, with a slight scar on his right cheek Prologue of Book 4). in that chapter the alchemist kills Pate via the exact same "poison coin" method that Arya uses on the docks of Braavos. and then at the very end of book 4, when Sam Tarly meets Archmaester Marwyn 'the Mage' a youth is present who calls himself Pate and has the same features as the person who died previously.

Better question, what is Jaqen doing in Oldtown, and what does he want with Sam? After Marwyn has gone, Pate(Jaqen) tells Sam that there’s an empty sleeping cell under his own in the west tower, with steps that lead right up to Archmaester Walgrave’s chambers. He adds that the ravens quork but there is a good view of the Honeywine. Sam agrees to sleep there. Pate(Jaqen) tells him he will bring Sam some woolen coverlets since the stone walls turn cold at night. Sam thanks him, but thinks to himself that there is something about the pale, soft youth that he mislikes, but he does not want to seem discourteous so he tells him his name, in return the youth tells him his name, which is Pate, "like the pig boy" he adds.



edit- and this - It is very unlikely the Pate that Sam meets when he reaches Oldtown is the same Pate in the prologue of "A Feast for Crows." The Pate in the prologue hates being connected to Spotted Pate the pig boy, while in the final chapter of A Feast For Crows he introduces himself as "Pate like the pig boy".

[LulzSect]

Looks like I'm due to read book 4 again. Argh.

[Sirken]

Looks like I'm due to read book 4 again. Argh.

it sounds like u had the same issues with 4 that i had. was just soooo slow after book 3. here a lot of what u missed

The Dornish Master Plan Part 1 - http://youtu.be/6TBfdd_xNVo
The Dornish Master Plan Part 2 - http://youtu.be/gpghGwSo0ws
The Dornish Master Plan Part 3 - http://youtu.be/FPI5eDuFfAw
The Dornish Master Plan Part 4 - http://youtu.be/HedVa92wkYg

[Patriam1066]

Looks like I'm due to read book 4 again. Argh.

Yeah seriously... I completely missed the Pate / Jaqen thing.
The fourth was definitely the most boring / least engaging of the five.

[Halius]

Holy crap, I'm seriously going to have to read all the books again. I am reading through pages of theories on characters and I just can't remember half the stuff you guys are all talking about. I haven't read them all in about 5 years.

Well time to delve into about 4500 pages of content, hopefully I remember everything this time.

[Sirken]

Game of Thrones panel at Comic Con

Part 1 - http://youtu.be/28vsAkfo94g
Part 2 - http://youtu.be/uFn9G9zToqw


GRRM dropped some book 6 info.
one thing was that we will see Jeyne Westerling in book 6

[Mandalore93]

AFFC best book in the series so far. Loved all the plot movings in it.

[Quaos]

That's an interesting choice for the prologue. Any ideas for why?

[Sirken]

AFFC best book in the series so far. Loved all the plot movings in it.
no

That's an interesting choice for the prologue. Any ideas for why?
no

Did he spoil when the f'in book is coming out?
no


but, Storm of Swords best book.

prologue, expect her to die, im pretty sure someone dies in every prologue & epilogue.

he said Book 6 will be out after Velious

[Sidelle]

it sounds like u had the same issues with 4 that i had. was just soooo slow after book 3. here a lot of what u missed

The Dornish Master Plan Part 1 - http://youtu.be/6TBfdd_xNVo
The Dornish Master Plan Part 2 - http://youtu.be/gpghGwSo0ws
The Dornish Master Plan Part 3 - http://youtu.be/FPI5eDuFfAw
The Dornish Master Plan Part 4 - http://youtu.be/HedVa92wkYg

Loved these. Pretty good stuff here. Still mourning the loss of the Red Viper though. I feel like a widow or something... :(

[Mandalore93]

AFFC is the first book I didn't have to sit through terrible, terrible Caitlyn chapters. That by itself would be good enough for me. However, then you add in all the intrigue with Bailish. Couple this with the turning point in Jaime's story arc as well as Jon starting to have a fucking pair of balls it's all good stuff. If you can't read through some admittedly dry stuff, then this genre ain't for y'all. :P

[LulzSect]

that first link was great

never even considered such large plot

think i will wait to watch rest until after i reread

[Sirken]

Loved these. Pretty good stuff here. Still mourning the loss of the Red Viper though. I feel like a widow or something... :(
i know, he went from instant top 3 fav to RIP bro. :(


that first link was great
never even considered such large plot
think i will wait to watch rest until after i reread
I tip my tinfoil hat to Preston Jacobs.
i felt the same way. this guy could easily play here with the amount of tinfoil he has, BUT theres not really anything i can point to and say why he cant be right. mind was blown.

[Sirken]

For u Lulz,
Who Poisoned the Locusts? - http://youtu.be/SOqNoDYwyqs

[LulzSect]

tks sirk can i admit fuck i forgot about the big guy character originally rolling with barristan that they cut out and merged the fight scene (at least) into daario

have i really been here 2+ years already

shit


**strong belwas how could i forget

[LulzSect]

http://d3819ii77zvwic.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/ik49VlPshlPIz.gif

[Swish]

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/george-rr-martin-participate-game-thrones-season/story?id=24742321 (no spoiler, just some sad news)

http://stylealchemy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/scared1.gif

[Sirken]

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/george-rr-martin-participate-game-thrones-season/story?id=24742321 (no spoiler, just some sad news)

http://stylealchemy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/scared1.gif

omg finally


and wait, why is that sad?

[LulzSect]

Sounds like goog news to me he is inspired to finish the damn books

[Swish]

omg finally


and wait, why is that sad?

Can't fault the production crew, but the writer should be overseeing everything imo, just in case.

[Sirken]

I remember when Martin made an off hand comment about how he needed to get on finishing the books because it would be bad if the series ever caught up with him. Four years later, still no book and he's staring down the barrel of that exact scenario.

And here's the problem... these actors are not going to stop aging while Martin gets his shit together.

yea. i remember that too :mad:

im just worried hes gonna lose interest if the show passes him. i need answers to things that the show hasnt even touched on.

[Sirken]

Does R + L Really = J ?

http://youtu.be/m-u2gUM4Vvc

[Tiggles]

OK get this.

Maegi the frog says Cercei will be killed by "a valonqar" and that means little brother in valariyan.

Cercei is using Zombie Gregor to defend her against the church in a trial by combat and who does the church pick to fight the mountain? The newly reformed Sandorr who survived at the church at the trident and comes back to kill his big brother. Killing Clegene the "little brother" effectively kills Cercei as well.

[Sirken]

OK get this.

Maegi the frog says Cercei will be killed by "a valonqar" and that means little brother in valariyan.

Cercei is using Zombie Gregor to defend her against the church in a trial by combat and who does the church pick to fight the mountain? The newly reformed Sandorr who survived at the church at the trident and comes back to kill his big brother. Killing Clegene the "little brother" effectively kills Cercei as well.

/applaud

i always believed that gregor and sandor would fight. now im convinced Gregor has robb starks head sewn on the shoulders, and im convinced that sandor is the gravedigger.

that being said, i never considered the possibility that Sandor was the Valonqar from Maggie the Frog's reading to cersei. but i really like it!

[Sidelle]

I have to say that the very thing I love about these books is also the thing that makes my head explode. So many possibilities...

And every time I see GRRM's face anywhere I can't help but selfishly pray "PLEASE FINISH THE SERIES, MOTHAFUCKA. You're not allowed to die yet."

I know, I am terrible... :(

[Sirken]

i dont even think he cares. but of the fun is creating the story. he already knows the end, and HBO is doing the leg work via the show.

winter might not be coming

[Sirken]

yea truth.

bran and sansa are pretty much caught up. i can guess how jojens story is gonna end in the book pretty well. gdi george

[Mandalore93]

The thing about GoT is that I don't really give a shit about the main story lines anymore. For me it's really where a lot of the side characters are going since I think they're generally more interesting/less tropish than the main ones. (Fuck the plot armor on Danny, that bitch has been annoying all five fucking books. Sansa is bearable now due to LF. Cat was also unbearable. Thank god that bitch is dead and her resurrected form doesn't let her speak too much) The only PoV characters I even like are Jon (since AFFC, before that he's just a whiny cunt), Jaimie, and Tyrion. I also like parts of Theon, since I love the psychological exertion he goes through as Reek.

[Sirken]

i dont even know who the main characters are anymore.

[Sidelle]

The thing about GoT is that I don't really give a shit about the main story lines anymore. For me it's really where a lot of the side characters are going since I think they're generally more interesting/less tropish than the main ones. (Fuck the plot armor on Danny, that bitch has been annoying all five fucking books. Sansa is bearable now due to LF. Cat was also unbearable. Thank god that bitch is dead and her resurrected form doesn't let her speak too much) The only PoV characters I even like are Jon (since AFFC, before that he's just a whiny cunt), Jaimie, and Tyrion. I also like parts of Theon, since I love the psychological exertion he goes through as Reek.

Woman hater. :D

http://media.tumblr.com/7e3f597bcc6c2961a34a5b3607857140/tumblr_inline_mufszg6SFB1s3mh67.gif

[Patriam1066]

The thing about GoT is that I don't really give a shit about the main story lines anymore. For me it's really where a lot of the side characters are going since I think they're generally more interesting/less tropish than the main ones. (Fuck the plot armor on Danny, that bitch has been annoying all five fucking books. Sansa is bearable now due to LF. Cat was also unbearable. Thank god that bitch is dead and her resurrected form doesn't let her speak too much) The only PoV characters I even like are Jon (since AFFC, before that he's just a whiny cunt), Jaimie, and Tyrion. I also like parts of Theon, since I love the psychological exertion he goes through as Reek.

Dany is what, fourteen, fifteen? "Annoying bitch" is a rather strong rebuke for a teenager who has been treated like dog shit her entire life by her brother, before being sold off to a foreign husband who tragically dies once the two actually begin to love each other. In other words, cut her some slack. I think GRRM does a good job with her exposition and character development - What trope is he employing with her? The teenage girl who spawns dragons, is immune to fire, begrudgingly leads her people, and does this moderately successfully while being fawned over by men who want to bang her / kill her / use her for their own interests? I love reading her parts; if anything, she defies the trope of the damsel in distress. She is a damsel who saves others from distress, and again, she's a teenager. When I was a teenager I was trying to pick up girls during happy hour at Sonic in a POS honda accord listening to Amber by 311.


Woman hater. :D


http://media.tumblr.com/7e3f597bcc6c2961a34a5b3607857140/tumblr_inline_mufszg6SFB1s3mh67.gif

^Lol owned
On a serious note, Davos wins the game, just my $.02

Onion King baby

[Tiggles]

yea truth.

bran and sansa are pretty much caught up. i can guess how jojens story is gonna end in the book pretty well. gdi george

poor jojen.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/56772-jojen-reeds-fate-adwd-spoilers/

[Mandalore93]

Nah, I actually sort of like Brienne's part and I absolutely love Cersei's as the story goes on. What I dislike is incompetence/stupidity (hence why I dislike all the Starks, may they die out soon). Cersei's part is honestly the best written woman in the story I feel. I love her descent into madness as well as all the politicking being done.

That's the thing about Danny though...is that she *hasn't* been doing well in leading her people. Let's be honest, that bitch has plot armor thicker than an elephant's dong and without it she'd be a skeleton on the side of the road. Deus ex machinima pretty much saves her at every turn in the form of the dragons. She's completely inept at ruling the cities she's conquered. She's beyond entitled about her "rights" to the Iron Throne (although that's normal in medieval society, I'll admit. Stannis is just as bad and I lurv him) but more importantly she completely overlooks the facts about her father and why the lords rebelled against him. It's silly to draw comparisons to our lives when the GoT universe, teenage leaders aren't uncommon. Rob is around the same age as Danny, and while he doesn't face the same challenges she does he did well...at first. Then he let his "honor" (aka getting his willy wet) in the way of politics. Bad business that. Tywin is very young also when he fucking curbstomps the Reynes. In real history there are quite a few young, successful rulers such as Mehmet II of the Ottomans (the guy who conquered Constantinople)

[Patriam1066]

Nah, I actually sort of like Brienne's part and I absolutely love Cersei's as the story goes on. What I dislike is incompetence/stupidity (hence why I dislike all the Starks, may they die out soon). Cersei's part is honestly the best written woman in the story I feel. I love her descent into madness as well as all the politicking being done.

That's the thing about Danny though...is that she *hasn't* been doing well in leading her people. Let's be honest, that bitch has plot armor thicker than an elephant's dong and without it she'd be a skeleton on the side of the road. Deus ex machinima pretty much saves her at every turn in the form of the dragons. She's completely inept at ruling the cities she's conquered. She's beyond entitled about her "rights" to the Iron Throne (although that's normal in medieval society, I'll admit. Stannis is just as bad and I lurv him) but more importantly she completely overlooks the facts about her father and why the lords rebelled against him. It's silly to draw comparisons to our lives when the GoT universe, teenage leaders aren't uncommon. Rob is around the same age as Danny, and while he doesn't face the same challenges she does he did well...at first. Then he let his "honor" (aka getting his willy wet) in the way of politics. Bad business that. Tywin is very young also when he fucking curbstomps the Reynes. In real history there are quite a few young, successful rulers such as Mehmet II of the Ottomans (the guy who conquered Constantinople)

We clearly have different tastes in characters, so that's part of why we disagree. I can't stand Cersei or Stannis, I'm more a Davos type of man. I'm cheering for the moral of the lot rather than the effective.

I will give you this, Dany is most definitely entitled and ignorant about why The Mad King was deposed. That's probably her most annoying part. It is interesting that Barristan doesn't impart some of his vast knowledge to her about this. I still tend to think that while she repeatedly bad decisions, she is surrounded by people who are actually making her more inept. They are decent at military encounters, but Barristan idealizes Dany for what she could be: the first good ruler than he has ever served. Jorah loves her for no other reason than he worships her beauty, or is just pathetic? I'm not sure what happened to him, but again, he sees Dany for what he wants her to be, rather than what she is. I'll admit she isn't the best ruler, but it's hard to be wise when your council doesn't explain more forcefully the consequences of your mistakes. She isn't being given an honest assessment of her abilities, and I still think she is "moderately successful". I'll put it like this, I live in the US. I'd take her as a leader over Obama or Bush in a heart beat.

[Sirken]

On a serious note, Davos wins the game, just my $.02

Onion King baby

i would be so god damn thrilled to see Davos some how win the game :p

[Sirken]

I will give you this, Dany is most definitely entitled and ignorant about why The Mad King was deposed. That's probably her most annoying part. It is interesting that Barristan doesn't impart some of his vast knowledge to her about this. I still tend to think that while she repeatedly bad decisions, she is surrounded by people who are actually making her more inept. They are decent at military encounters, but Barristan idealizes Dany for what she could be: the first good ruler than he has ever served. Jorah loves her for no other reason than he worships her beauty, or is just pathetic? I'm not sure what happened to him, but again, he sees Dany for what he wants her to be, rather than what she is. I'll admit she isn't the best ruler, but it's hard to be wise when your council doesn't explain more forcefully the consequences of your mistakes. She isn't being given an honest assessment of her abilities, and I still think she is "moderately successful". I'll put it like this, I live in the US. I'd take her as a leader over Obama or Bush in a heart beat.

oh dany. Dany suffers from Princess complex, same as Lindsay Lohan. shes been told shes special for so long that she believes it. id bet Barristan doesnt want to say anything bad about the mad king to dany, because Targaryens have a history of over reacting to news that they dont want to hear. Barristan has only been with Dany for a year or so, but he has served Targaryens his entire life, and he knows that well. and to be 100% honest, im not entirely sure that Dany isnt a little bit crazy (just like her dad). and the fact that you'd accept President Lindsay Lohan over either of the last two scares the shit out of me.

hopefully dany will learn. but maybe another blackfyre / targaryen war, targs led by Dany, and BFs led by Aegon.

shitty thing is, Stannis should be king at this point, an of the remaining claimants, i think Stannis would also make the best king. and soon, unless something big happens, they might have more support than people realize.

quick run down,

Arryns - Once great fam that would have had support (and did during Roberts rebellion), gonna be ruined by Robyn Arryn. The closest we have is Harrold Hardyng (Harry the Heir), if he looked up with Sansa, and had the right people supporting them, but theres no legit claim on the throne with out war to take it by force.

Baratheons - so Renly's claim is absorbed by Stannis, whom imo has the best claim. however, i fear that as he tangles with the WWs, Dany and her dragons will show up. he will save the realm by holding off the WWs, but he will learn that A) hes not azor azai, and B) he cant beat Dany's dragons as he watches them annihilate the WWs. and so imo, enter Stannis from stage left as the 1000th commander of the nights watch. AND after this last big WW battle, the Nights Watch and the position of Lord Commander will be highly respected and appreciated by the people of Westeros again.

Boltons - these are essentially the new Starks, as they rule the North. however they wont have the support to ever make a claim on the iron throne after the events of the red wedding. furthermore, the North remembers, dont expect the boltons to last too long.

Freys - lol.

Greyjoys - firstly, these nerds win on water, and lose on land. but Balon is gone, Euron is a raping pirate that will never have the support of Westeros, and will probably die when Victarion gets back. Vic could only rule Westeros if Dany put him there, and she wouldnt. Asha again has the issue of not being physically able to conquer westeros but wouldnt be shocked if she ended up in charge of pyke, shes good at getting people behind her (c wat i did there).

Lannisters - The Lannisters are fucked. be it due to the gods, bad luck, or the Dornish master plan. Tywin is dead, Kevin is dead, Tyrion is gone, Jaime can't fight nor can he inherent Casterly Rock as a member of the Kings Guard. Cersei is slowly losing her mind, her family's connections, her looks, and any grasp of power she might have had. Maggy tells us that Cersei will out live her children, so dont expect Tommen or Myrcella to have long happy lives.

Martells - these sneaky sand dwelling nerds have multiple tricks up their sleeves. Arianne Martell is smart, pretty, and dangerous. with Doran guiding her, they could be trouble. and with Oberyn's daughter Sarella disguised as a boy named Alleras studying at the citadel, it has to make us wonder what they are up to. im sure part of their plan is to install dornish law in westeros (as Dorne was never conquered by the Targs, they were allowed to keep their titles, laws, and customs when they were finally brought into the kingdom via a marriage pact). the biggest difference in Dornish law is that females are allowed to rule and be heirs over their male siblings, ie: by Dornish law, Cersei would actually be the legal heir to Casterly Rock over Jaime (regardless of KG status).

Starks - Jon Snow is their only hope at redemption as well as the iron throne. with Rickon being the heir to Winterfell (assuming Bran cant leave the cave). rest of them are dead or useless in terms of being King of Westeros. i dont believe Jon is Eddard's son, which is why hes not heir to winterfell, but could still be the heir to the iron throne, depending on the legitimacy of Aegon.

Targaryens - between Roberts Rebellion, Balons Rebellion, and the war of the 5 kings, id bet theres a lot of westerosi folks that yearn for the peaceful days of Targaryen rule. the problem here is that we now have an Aegon. and if hes a blackfyre, thatll be the start of a third targaryen/blackfyre civil war. if hes a Targaryen, well, he has a better claim to the throne than anyone else as he'd be Rhaegar's first son, and Dany is only Rhaegar's sister. if hes legit, shes nothing more than a pretty princess. Aegon doesnt have a strong enough force to conquer Westeros, but Dany does, which is why Dany needs to strike a deal with Victarion, which would essentially make her unstoppable on land and sea. personally i believe Dany could die in the final battle versus the WWs, kinda in a sacrifice herself to save the rest of us.

Tullys - pras blackfish, but nope.

Tyrells - these nerds will lose all claims to the throne with the death of Tommen. tuff times ahead.

[Patriam1066]

oh dany. Dany suffers from Princess complex, same as Lindsay Lohan. shes been told shes special for so long that she believes it. id bet Barristan doesnt want to say anything bad about the mad king to dany, because Targaryens have a history of over reacting to news that they dont want to hear. Barristan has only been with Dany for a year or so, but he has served Targaryens his entire life, and he knows that well. and to be 100% honest, im not entirely sure that Dany isnt a little bit crazy (just like her dad). and the fact that you'd accept President Lindsay Lohan over either of the last two scares the shit out of me.

hopefully dany will learn. but maybe another blackfyre / targaryen war, targs led by Dany, and BFs led by Aegon.

shitty thing is, Stannis should be king at this point, an of the remaining claimants, i think Stannis would also make the best king. and soon, unless something big happens, they might have more support than people realize.

quick run down,

Arryns - Once great fam that would have had support (and did during Roberts rebellion), gonna be ruined by Robyn Arryn. The closest we have is Harrold Hardyng (Harry the Heir), if he looked up with Sansa, and had the right people supporting them, but theres no legit claim on the throne with out war to take it by force.

Baratheons - so Renly's claim is absorbed by Stannis, whom imo has the best claim. however, i fear that as he tangles with the WWs, Dany and her dragons will show up. he will save the realm by holding off the WWs, but he will learn that A) hes not azor azai, and B) he cant beat Dany's dragons as he watches them annihilate the WWs. and so imo, enter Stannis from stage left as the 1000th commander of the nights watch. AND after this last big WW battle, the Nights Watch and the position of Lord Commander will be highly respected and appreciated by the people of Westeros again.

Boltons - these are essentially the new Starks, as they rule the North. however they wont have the support to ever make a claim on the iron throne after the events of the red wedding. furthermore, the North remembers, dont expect the boltons to last too long.

Freys - lol.

Greyjoys - firstly, these nerds win on water, and lose on land. but Balon is gone, Euron is a raping pirate that will never have the support of Westeros, and will probably die when Victarion gets back. Vic could only rule Westeros if Dany put him there, and she wouldnt. Asha again has the issue of not being physically able to conquer westeros but wouldnt be shocked if she ended up in charge of pyke, shes good at getting people behind her (c wat i did there).

Lannisters - The Lannisters are fucked. be it due to the gods, bad luck, or the Dornish master plan. Tywin is dead, Kevin is dead, Tyrion is gone, Jaime can't fight nor can he inherent Casterly Rock as a member of the Kings Guard. Cersei is slowly losing her mind, her family's connections, her looks, and any grasp of power she might have had. Maggy tells us that Cersei will out live her children, so dont expect Tommen or Myrcella to have long happy lives.

Martells - these sneaky sand dwelling nerds have multiple tricks up their sleeves. Arianne Martell is smart, pretty, and dangerous. with Doran guiding her, they could be trouble. and with Oberyn's daughter Sarella disguised as a boy named Alleras studying at the citadel, it has to make us wonder what they are up to. im sure part of their plan is to install dornish law in westeros (as Dorne was never conquered by the Targs, they were allowed to keep their titles, laws, and customs when they were finally brought into the kingdom via a marriage pact). the biggest difference in Dornish law is that females are allowed to rule and be heirs over their male siblings, ie: by Dornish law, Cersei would actually be the legal heir to Casterly Rock over Jaime (regardless of KG status).

Starks - Jon Snow is their only hope at redemption as well as the iron throne. with Rickon being the heir to Winterfell (assuming Bran cant leave the cave). rest of them are dead or useless in terms of being King of Westeros. i dont believe Jon is Eddard's son, which is why hes not heir to winterfell, but could still be the heir to the iron throne, depending on the legitimacy of Aegon.

Targaryens - between Roberts Rebellion, Balons Rebellion, and the war of the 5 kings, id bet theres a lot of westerosi folks that yearn for the peaceful days of Targaryen rule. the problem here is that we now have an Aegon. and if hes a blackfyre, thatll be the start of a third targaryen/blackfyre civil war. if hes a Targaryen, well, he has a better claim to the throne than anyone else as he'd be Rhaegar's first son, and Dany is only Rhaegar's sister. if hes legit, shes nothing more than a pretty princess. Aegon doesnt have a strong enough force to conquer Westeros, but Dany does, which is why Dany needs to strike a deal with Victarion, which would essentially make her unstoppable on land and sea. personally i believe Dany could die in the final battle versus the WWs, kinda in a sacrifice herself to save the rest of us.

Tullys - pras blackfish, but nope.

Tyrells - these nerds will lose all claims to the throne with the death of Tommen. tuff times ahead.

Hahahahaha President Lindsay Lohan. Damn that's harsh, she isn't that bad.

I am an idealist. I'm from a shitty part of the world and I prefer benevolence, or at least attempted benevolence, to efficacy that comes with dishonesty. Not to bring politics into this, but GWBush and Obama are dishonest ass holes who are A) ineffective B) scum and C) couldn't run a lemonade stand. Even if Dany was as bad, and she may well be (just not in my opinion), having dragons would be legit for countering Russia. "Hey Putin, you like hunting bears? That's cool, I like killing tyrants whilst soaring atop this dragon."
I may be wrong, but you guys are seriously underestimating what Dany has accomplished.

I agree completely with what you say about Stannis having the best claim, but I disagree with him being the best candidate. He punishes Davos for smuggling in an attempt to save the garrison, and calls it honor. If he were so honorable, he would kill himself for having benefitted from a smuggler's crimes, rather than exact draconian measures on a man simply trying to help. Stannis is too brutal to rule justly. I have no doubt that he could do the job well, but the lower classes would suffer from his intractable sense of "honor."

I honestly think, of the characters with some remaining claim, that Jon Snow would make the best king. That being said, he is unlikely to be easily verified as a Targaryen, or to ever ascend to the throne. In his absense, Dany has the most potential to be a good ruler. And what about Tommen? He certainly doesn't have any glaring negatives to his character; at this point, I prefer him to Stannis.

Favorite characters:
1. Davos
2. Jon Snow
3. The hound
4. The Blackfish
5. Dany
I liked Tyrion until he got to Essos.

Least favorite:
1. Theon
2. Joffrey
3. Cersei
4. Robb
5. Baelish

[LulzSect]

Y u no liek Tyrion post ESSO? I rather enjoyed his travels post KL.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I agree completely with what you say about Stannis having the best claim, but I disagree with him being the best candidate. He punishes Davos for smuggling in an attempt to save the garrison, and calls it honor. If he were so honorable, he would kill himself for having benefitted from a smuggler's crimes, rather than exact draconian measures on a man simply trying to help. Stannis is too brutal to rule justly. I have no doubt that he could do the job well, but the lower classes would suffer from his intractable sense of "honor."

Stannis didn't cut his fingers for smuggling the onions. He cut off his fingers for ALL of his past smuggling crimes. The onions were simply an act of war in a time of war. He was rewarded for that specific act and never punished.

Stannis is by far the best candidate to rule the kingdom. He is an effective administrator, and that is what's needed most right now. With Kevan dead, there are very few people that could join the small council and actually govern. There are/were people who would be better rulers if they had a competent small council, but whoever takes the throne will pretty much be doing everything themselves at first.

Stannis is the only person who brings the full administrative package. He has experience in economics, administration, laws, and war. No one would be as effective or just as him in the current situation. Certainly, there are situations where people would be more effective rulers because of the support staff they have, but no one has that luxury, and whoever takes the throne will be flying solo for a while.

Stannis/Davos 2015.

[Sidelle]

Favorite characters:
1. Davos
2. Jon Snow
3. The hound
4. The Blackfish
5. Dany
I liked Tyrion until he got to Essos.


http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk9nwsVTad1qbr9pf.gif

^^^LOL, I couldn't resist, I had to post that. :D

Tyrion is the shit! He's my number one favorite character, hands down. He has a good heart deep down inside and really only wants to be loved. He's also clever and ambitious, which I respect a lot. Not to mention the great sense of humor and loyalty to his family (even if it's misplaced in some cases).

I agree with you about Ser Davos. I just love how honorable and ballsy he is. He does the right thing always, even if it means he'll die for it. He stands up to Stannis like no other because he sees how blinded he is regarding Melisandre and her so-called prophecies and predictions.

Dany was a girl I liked at one point. Or maybe I just felt pity for her being so alone in the world and used as a pawn by the ridiculously fat nerd, Illyrio, as well as the crafty Lord Varys. It made me root for her when she started accepting her lot in life as Khaleesi and really tried to make the best of it. I thought it was brilliant the way she handled (tamed?) Khal Drogo and earned his love and respect, even though part of me hated that she had to use sex to do it. In this male dominated world sometimes that becomes necessary. It's the only thing she had at that point.

But now Dany has become pretty arrogant (hubris much?) and in my opinion she's bringing a fuckton of shit down upon herself. She is biting off more than she can chew and is rapidly losing control of everything, including her dragons. So yeah, I can understand why people are annoyed with her because I am too.

My attention is piqued lately by the goings-on of the Dornish. I'm looking forward to seeing how Prince Doran and Princess Arianne's storyline unfolds.

Also, I really want more from the Blackfyres!

God I love GoT. So hungry for more . :)

[Tiggles]

$5 says Stannis dies via dragon fire after he is convinced that he can't be burnt.

[Patriam1066]

Y u no liek Tyrion post ESSO? I rather enjoyed his travels post KL.

Not sure, I just think he's a shadow of his former self. I want him to be in power.

Stannis didn't cut his fingers for smuggling the onions. He cut off his fingers for ALL of his past smuggling crimes. The onions were simply an act of war in a time of war. He was rewarded for that specific act and never punished.

Stannis is by far the best candidate to rule the kingdom. He is an effective administrator, and that is what's needed most right now. With Kevan dead, there are very few people that could join the small council and actually govern. There are/were people who would be better rulers if they had a competent small council, but whoever takes the throne will pretty much be doing everything themselves at first.

Stannis is the only person who brings the full administrative package. He has experience in economics, administration, laws, and war. No one would be as effective or just as him in the current situation. Certainly, there are situations where people would be more effective rulers because of the support staff they have, but no one has that luxury, and whoever takes the throne will be flying solo for a while.

Stannis/Davos 2015.

DAVOS/DAVOS/DAVOS/DAVOS/LEONIDAS

1. Smugglers should lose appendages but fratricide is OK? Why does everyone absolve Stannis of his repeated series of dick moves? What would the man do to secure his crown? He'd certainly kill his brother (RIP Renly). I don't think that that is an effective tactic for ruling. And I understand that Stannis offered terms, and that Renly had zero claim to the throne. He still didn't deserve to die, and he especially didn't deserve to be killed by his brother. I know that these books are brutal, that people are murdered at weddings, that children are pushed from windows, that sausages are removed from their pair of meatballs, but I'm still not cheering for the people who commit the sins.

2. This guy is by far the biggest dickhead in the history of literature. Move over Judas. I could be biased (I am, I fucking hate Stannis), but I feel that this is an accurate assessment.

3. Stannis should change his name to Saddam HuStannis or BaStannis al-Assad.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk9nwsVTad1qbr9pf.gif

^^^LOL, I couldn't resist, I had to post that. :D

Tyrion is the shit! He's my number one favorite character, hands down. He has a good heart deep down inside and really only wants to be loved. He's also clever and ambitious, which I respect a lot. Not to mention the great sense of humor and loyalty to his family (even if it's misplaced in some cases).

I agree with you about Ser Davos. I just love how honorable and ballsy he is. He does the right thing always, even if it means he'll die for it. He stands up to Stannis like no other because he sees how blinded he is regarding Melisandre and her so-called prophecies and predictions.

Dany was a girl I liked at one point. Or maybe I just felt pity for her being so alone in the world and used as a pawn by the ridiculously fat nerd, Illyrio, as well as the crafty Lord Varys. It made me root for her when she started accepting her lot in life as Khaleesi and really tried to make the best of it. I thought it was brilliant the way she handled (tamed?) Khal Drogo and earned his love and respect, even though part of me hated that she had to use sex to do it. In this male dominated world sometimes that becomes necessary. It's the only thing she had at that point.

But now Dany has become pretty arrogant (hubris much?) and in my opinion she's bringing a fuckton of shit down upon herself. She is biting off more than she can chew and is rapidly losing control of everything, including her dragons. So yeah, I can understand why people are annoyed with her because I am too.

My attention is piqued lately by the goings-on of the Dornish. I'm looking forward to seeing how Prince Doran and Princess Arianne's storyline unfolds.

Also, I really want more from the Blackfyres!

God I love GoT. So hungry for more . :)


Dany is totally responsible for most of the fuckups she gets involved in, but ultimately she's still a child with a heavy burden and overwhelming personal tragedy. I empathize with her I guess... she's a stranger in a strange land. It's hard to adapt to that sometimes and I give her credit for TRYING to do the right thing, according to her own limited judgment.

I like the Dorne subplot as well. Lots of stuff will be happening.

And yeah, I really hope he gets done with The Winds of Winter soon. So many possibilities.

$5 says Stannis dies via dragon fire after he is convinced that he can't be burnt.

hahahaha that would be great

[Millburn]

There's 3 different ways this could be interpreted ... either Sean Bean is trolling, Sean Bean let down a GIANT spoiler, or he knows nothing. I'm betting it's a healthy dose of 1 and 3 but it's a nice juicy bit to latch onto if you're sporting the R+L=J.

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2cp9ol/hello_its_sean_bean_a_legend_on_legends_ama/cjhnewf

[Frieza_Prexus]

Not sure, I just think he's a shadow of his former self. I want him to be in power.

Smugglers should lose appendages but fratricide is OK? Why does everyone absolve Stannis of his repeated series of dick moves? What would the man do to secure his crown? He'd certainly kill his brother (RIP Renly). I don't think that that is an effective tactic for ruling. And I understand that Stannis offered terms, and that Renly had zero claim to the throne. He still didn't deserve to die, and he especially didn't deserve to be killed by his brother. I know that these books are brutal, that people are murdered at weddings, that children are pushed from windows, that sausages are removed from their pair of meatballs, but I'm still not cheering for the people who commit the sins.



Renly was planning to kill Stannis. He even admitted to as much. Stannis is certainly not innocent, but with Davos around he has begun to recognize his faults (that's why he's at the wall in the first place). None of the potential leaders are perfect, and Stannis is clearly the best of the lot. Renly's death, while awful, is at least somewhat excusable. Usurping the throne is punishable by death, and in Stannis' view he is the one true king. Reasonably consistent despite a few mental backflips.

I can think of no other person alive I'd want running Westeros.

[Sidelle]

Stannis is by far the best candidate to rule the kingdom. He is an effective administrator, and that is what's needed most right now. With Kevan dead, there are very few people that could join the small council and actually govern. There are/were people who would be better rulers if they had a competent small council, but whoever takes the throne will pretty much be doing everything themselves at first.

Stannis is the only person who brings the full administrative package. He has experience in economics, administration, laws, and war. No one would be as effective or just as him in the current situation. Certainly, there are situations where people would be more effective rulers because of the support staff they have, but no one has that luxury, and whoever takes the throne will be flying solo for a while.

Stannis/Davos 2015.

Administrative skills aside, Stannis has embraced the dark side. It wasn't pork he and Melisandre were barbecuing on the beach at Dragonstone. It was his own men, even his brother-in-law, because they would not accept his new fanatical religious beliefs. What do you think he would do to the smallfolk if he would murder his own brother and bannermen?

Stannis is a tyrant and would probably be worse than Mad King Aerys ever was.

Not sure, I just think he's a shadow of his former self. I want him to be in power.

Yes, Tyrion is a litttle down and out now but I'm pretty sure he'll make a comeback and maybe become pretty important before the end of the series.

1. Smugglers should lose appendages but fratricide is OK? Why does everyone absolve Stannis of his repeated series of dick moves? What would the man do to secure his crown? He'd certainly kill his brother (RIP Renly). I don't think that that is an effective tactic for ruling. And I understand that Stannis offered terms, and that Renly had zero claim to the throne. He still didn't deserve to die, and he especially didn't deserve to be killed by his brother. I know that these books are brutal, that people are murdered at weddings, that children are pushed from windows, that sausages are removed from their pair of meatballs, but I'm still not cheering for the people who commit the sins.

2. This guy is by far the biggest dickhead in the history of literature. Move over Judas. I could be biased (I am, I fucking hate Stannis), but I feel that this is an accurate assessment.

3. Stannis should change his name to Saddam HuStannis or BaStannis al-Assad.

I strongly dislike him too. He's often described as 'fair' and 'just' but he's really just an evil, cold-hearted tyrant and no better than anyone else who would sell their souls for power. Someone who burns men alive for not converting to his new religion is not a great candidate for king of Westeros. That would not be a happy and secure realm. I think it's possible that he might actually become king at some point but I don't believe he would last very long.

I worry a little about what will become of Ser Davos at that point. Stannis doesn't deserve such unwavering loyalty. At some point I feel something's gotta give regarding Davos. He needs to let go of that idealistic view of Stannis and come to his senses.

[Tiax]

[–]AxeApollo 3206 points 6 hours ago

Why did you not teach Jon Snow anything?


[–]RealSeanBean[S] 4183 points 6 hours ago

HAHAHAHAH!

Because he's not mine!



[–]RealSeanBean[S] 4241 points 6 hours ago

Little bastard!

[Patriam1066]

Administrative skills aside, Stannis has embraced the dark side. It wasn't pork he and Melisandre were barbecuing on the beach at Dragonstone. It was his own men, even his brother-in-law, because they would not accept his new fanatical religious beliefs. What do you think he would do to the smallfolk if he would murder his own brother and bannermen?

Stannis is a tyrant and would probably be worse than Mad King Aerys ever was.

I strongly dislike him too. He's often described as 'fair' and 'just' but he's really just an evil, cold-hearted tyrant and no better than anyone else who would sell their souls for power. Someone who burns men alive for not converting to his new religion is not a great candidate for king of Westeros. That would not be a happy and secure realm. I think it's possible that he might actually become king at some point but I don't believe he would last very long.


^Pretty much sums up my feelings exactly. Stannis has abilities, but he utilizes them only in his self-serving quest to attain power. And I forgot about his religious purification rituals. If he took over the kingdoms, he might immediately start a sectarian religious war... Definitely a dubious candidate for king.

Renly was planning to kill Stannis. He even admitted to as much. Stannis is certainly not innocent, but with Davos around he has begun to recognize his faults (that's why he's at the wall in the first place). None of the potential leaders are perfect, and Stannis is clearly the best of the lot. Renly's death, while awful, is at least somewhat excusable. Usurping the throne is punishable by death, and in Stannis' view he is the one true king. Reasonably consistent despite a few mental backflips.

I can think of no other person alive I'd want running Westeros.

If Davos can straighten him out, I can possibly see him becoming a decent king. I think of the potential leaders, he has the most proven managerial skills. He could definitely run the kingdoms from a bureaucratic perspective. From a moral standpoint, however, he could easily become a tyrant. He feels that his claim gives him the right to just about anything: entitlement and disdain for others rarely breeds effective rule.

[Frieza_Prexus]

If Davos can straighten him out, I can possibly see him becoming a decent king. I think of the potential leaders, he has the most proven managerial skills. He could definitely run the kingdoms from a bureaucratic perspective. From a moral standpoint, however, he could easily become a tyrant. He feels that his claim gives him the right to just about anything: entitlement and disdain for others rarely breeds effective rule.

I completely agree. Stannis won't be a "great" king; he will be a very effective king. He's already softened once by going up to the wall. He was trying to "be king so he could save the realm" when Davos reminded him to "save the realm to become king." All we need now is for Mel to sacrifice Shireen and for Stannis to rage-choke her to death and his transition will be complete.

Even with his current faults, he's STILL the one guy out of all the current candidates that I'd trust.

[Sirken]

he's STILL the one guy out of all the current candidates that I'd trust.
this^

im not saying Stannis would be the best king in the history of kings. im saying out of the potential realistic candidates, he'd be the best (especially with Davos as his Hand), and has the best claim.

Stannis has a better claim than Jon, as the Targaryens were overthrown and thats where Jons claim would come from. they cant both have legitimate claims as one cancels out the other. that said, if the Targaryens just came and took the throne back, it wouldnt be the first time.

[Funkutron5000]

All we need now is for Mel to sacrifice Shireen and for Stannis to rage-choke her to death and his transition will be complete.

This is most likely going to happen and I'm going to be super pissed. Shireen owns.

[Patriam1066]

I completely agree. Stannis won't be a "great" king; he will be a very effective king. He's already softened once by going up to the wall. He was trying to "be king so he could save the realm" when Davos reminded him to "save the realm to become king." All we need now is for Mel to sacrifice Shireen and for Stannis to rage-choke her to death and his transition will be complete.

Even with his current faults, he's STILL the one guy out of all the current candidates that I'd trust.

If Shireen is sacrified, he'd definitely free himself of the evil within, in which case I will concede that he'd make a good king. But we were discussing present leadership. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I'd take Jon Snow, Dany, Davos, Tyrion, and pretty much everyone who isn't a Frey or Petyr Baelish over Stannis. I don't hate his character (despite what I said earlier), he definitely has redeeming qualities, but I certainly don't want to see him ever take the throne. I am cheering for him against Ramsay though, which is important - I am against him taking the throne, but not against him playing a larger part in the saga.

It's definitely a matter of personal perspective, which is important since you brought up "trust". I am more inclined to trust Dany's intentions, for instance, as opposed to Stannis' capabilities. It's just what you'd look for in a leader. Personally, I think morality is more important than anything, including intelligence or efficacy... too many people have been great / intelligent / capable leaders that have failed to consider the populations under their control. Similarly, people with good intentions have often led their people unto the worst results, so it's purely a matter of choice. I don't think it likely that I'd ever accept Stannis, short of him taking the black and admitting all of his transgressions.

Also you *****s be crazy... Dany is hawt, has dragons, and is trying to hone her craft in Essos (admittedly by destroying cities haha) before even departing for KL. Sirken might be right about something... given her brother and father's madness, it could be true that she is moving towards insanity. If that's the case, I'll readily admit that I was wrong about her, but until then, I'm holding out for either her or Jon Snow... or the extremely unlikely Davos which would be my first choice for king. It's interesting how Rhaegar receives universal acclaim from the realm for his character, exploits, and abilities, while seemingly everyone else in his family (his immediate branch of the Targaryen line, not the entire Dynasty) fails at just about everything that they attempt.

On a side note, some of the worst casting in the show IMO were the Baratheons. They were supposed to be giant, imposing, physical specimens; I didn't picture Robert being some fat average height douche or Stannis to look like a substitute teacher.

[Sirken]

while i love Davos, theres 0 chance for him to be king. he has no claim, he has no army. Dany would have shit for a council. Jon Snow knows nothing. Dany is hot? shes like 16. but shes also retarded. who the hell would be her council? she has no common sense, she has no idea how westeros works, and shes losing control of her dragons. shes literally fucking useless.

Robert gets fat and drunky, if u wanna see young robert you're sol. also remember the Cleganes are bigger than the Baratheons. if u want to knit pick, Tywin and Syrio are bald, and Daario should have a blue trident beard.

[Patriam1066]

while i love Davos, theres 0 chance for him to be king. he has no claim, he has no army. Dany would have shit for a council. Jon Snow knows nothing. Dany is hot? shes like 16. but shes also retarded. who the hell would be her council? she has no common sense, she has no idea how westeros works, and shes losing control of her dragons. shes literally fucking useless.

Robert gets fat and drunky, if u wanna see young robert you're sol. also remember the Cleganes are bigger than the Baratheons. if u want to knit pick, Tywin and Syrio are bald, and Daario should have a blue trident beard.

Haha I'm not serious about her being hot... I thought the ***** plz made that clear. But if I were talking about her attractiveness, I'd obviously be referring to Emilia Clarke or whatever her name is in the show. As for being useless, she brought the dragons into the story, which will be the weapon that defeats the Others.... And is, by the way, the reason why magic is returning to the world. Dany has already played a critical role, and the fact that she has survived this far leads me to believe that she has a further purpose.
Jon Snow knows nothing? Except how to infiltrate an enemy army and become lord commander of the nights watch while a teenager....
Jon Snow is a Targaryen and a stark, he literally is ice and fire, the blood of the first men and the blood of old Valyria, he has some very important part to play.

We'll have to agree to disagree... As strongly as you oppose Dany, I oppose Stannis. I honestly think he's among the worst choices in the novels for king, and I'm sure you'd think the same about Dany being queen.

Robert Baratheon's casting was bad. But you're right, there were other misses, like Dany's and Viserys' hair and eye color (mainly the eyes). But Robert looks 5'10; I could take him in real life. And I work at a desk and play tennis for exercise.... The Baratheon's should be able to take Mike Tyson in his prime. As for the Cleganes... Those dudes are 6'6" and 6'9"... Plenty of people that could've been casted for Robert that were shorter... Namely anyone from the Netherlands, or Vin Diesel (being facetious).

[Frieza_Prexus]

while i love Davos, theres 0 chance for him to be king. he has no claim, he has no army. Dany would have shit for a council.

Exactly my point. Of all the people who stand a reasonable chance (>1%) of being king, none have the resources or experience needed. Obviously, Rhaegar would make the best king ever, but it's not a realistic view. Dany has the mind and the temperment to do so, but not the administrative or political resources necessary. (Also, she's going to ultimately be a villain). Stannis has some huge faults, but his kingdom is the only one that would not be plagued by perpetual war and unrest. I think Dany could ultimately do a good job as queen, but it's not likely and she faces an uphill battle. It's not that I want Stannis to be king, it's just that I think the kingdom is more likely to prosper under him than anyone else.

I agree that the Baratheon actors were way too small. I think the actors have all done an amazing job portraying them, but they all needed another foot of height.

[Sirken]

Jon Snow is a Targaryen and a stark, he literally is ice and fire, the blood of the first men and the blood of old Valyria, he has some very important part to play.
until Howland Reed shows up, Jon isn't shit but a bastard crow.


also, rereading the Dunk and Egg stories. ill never get use to having so many Targaryens just casually strolling around. poor Ser Duncan

[Patriam1066]

Exactly my point. Of all the people who stand a reasonable chance (>1%) of being king, none have the resources or experience needed. Obviously, Rhaegar would make the best king ever, but it's not a realistic view. Dany has the mind and the temperment to do so, but not the administrative or political resources necessary. (Also, she's going to ultimately be a villain). Stannis has some huge faults, but his kingdom is the only one that would not be plagued by perpetual war and unrest. I think Dany could ultimately do a good job as queen, but it's not likely and she faces an uphill battle. It's not that I want Stannis to be king, it's just that I think the kingdom is more likely to prosper under him than anyone else.


until Howland Reed shows up, Jon isn't shit but a bastard crow.


No point arguing about this any further, it just comes down to personal preferences when we read the books.

I'm more interested in finding out, or at least confirming, the identity of Young Griff. The Winds of Winter should be the best book since A Storm of Swords.

[Aenor]

until Howland Reed shows up, Jon isn't shit but a bastard crow.


also, rereading the Dunk and Egg stories. ill never get use to having so many Targaryens just casually strolling around. poor Ser Duncan

What about when Rob's men show up with the letter legitimizing him? The argument would be, if Jon swore his oath to the night's watch as a bastard of the north, then became something else, the oath would no longer hold. This is just as true if he finds out he's a Targaryen. Jon Snow swore that oath, but Jon Snow would no longer exist.

[Sidelle]

...Dany is hot? shes like 16. but shes also retarded. who the hell would be her council? she has no common sense, she has no idea how westeros works, and shes losing control of her dragons. shes literally fucking useless.


I'm thinking that Dany will get her shit together eventually. She lost control of her dragons for now but if she were to eventually get her hands on that dragon horn Victarian has with him and hook up with Archmaester Marwyn (with his dragon binding spells) it could be a total game changer.

[Sirken]

What about when Rob's men show up with the letter legitimizing him? The argument would be, if Jon swore his oath to the night's watch as a bastard of the north, then became something else, the oath would no longer hold. This is just as true if he finds out he's a Targaryen. Jon Snow swore that oath, but Jon Snow would no longer exist.

"the realm" never recognized Robb as King, even if most of the north did. The line of kings goes Aerys, Robert, Joffrey, Tommen. Anything that Robb did as "king" would not be considered a legitimate kings edict by the realm, hence, Robb's letter doesn't mean shit, especially since at the time Jon was a sworn brother of the nights watch. the nights watch doesnt care about family names or blood lines, the man swore an oath. if it was as easy as changing a name, folks would leave all the time.

also, Robb was an idiot. and off the battlefield made every possible wrong decision that he could have made.

[Frieza_Prexus]

hence, Robb's letter doesn't mean shit, especially since at the time Jon was a sworn brother of the nights watch.

Strength can define legitimacy. It's like the right of conquest but for letters I suppose. If the Grand Northern Conspiracy pans out, there's a lot of muscle that might be backing that letter.

[Patriam1066]

also, Robb was an idiot. and off the battlefield made every possible wrong decision that he could have made.

Agreed 100%... He played a great hand as poorly as one could. Executing Borat Karstark (don't recall his name) pissed me off about as much as anything in the books. Alienating bannermen, pissing off supporters... A day's work for the King in the North.

[Sirken]

B + A = J?
tower of joy pt2 - http://youtu.be/olUOUdlNvyg


(Part 1 if u missed it - http://youtu.be/m-u2gUM4Vvc)

[Mandalore93]

As many bad decisions as Stannis makes...he almost always realizes they were mistakes/not the best moves/not moral later down the line such as the murder of his brother. For that alone I think he is best suited. Dany' inner monologue usually has something similar but at the end of it she just tells herself she did fine and she's da bombad queen yo.

[Aenor]

B + A = J?
tower of joy pt2 - http://youtu.be/olUOUdlNvyg


(Part 1 if u missed it - http://youtu.be/m-u2gUM4Vvc)

Preston is totally right. R+L=J is a giant red herring. The best part is reading the comments for the videos and seeing all these nerds who are up in arms about having their theory debunked.

[Sirken]

he surely takes a few leaps, but theres nothing i can point to and be like, "that must be wrong because of XYZ"

and i really like that hes not regurgitating the same old crap. really hoping that he keeps these videos coming.

Seanzoz had a great GoT parody show, but the videos come out months apart now, and i cant be bothered to care anymore.

[Sidelle]

I'm loving these videos. They're making me question the possible conclusions that I was taking for granted were true.

Lol @ nerd rage over R + L = J possibly being a red herring. :D

I'm currently watching the Dornish Master Plan part I (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6TBfdd_xNVo). These are really good too.

[Patriam1066]

B + A = J?
tower of joy pt2 - http://youtu.be/olUOUdlNvyg


(Part 1 if u missed it - http://youtu.be/m-u2gUM4Vvc)

Good videos... He's definitely got some compelling arguments. Ned Dayne is definitely a strange name given the circumstances around Ashara's and Arthur's deaths. And the part about Ned Stark thinking about Rhaegar for the first time? Very interesting.

R + L = D makes me feel more validation about my irrational faith in Dany. On the other hand, I'd be 99% wrong about everything I thought about Jon. Either way, the guy in the videos has some good theories going there.

[Sidelle]

those are amazing, and if u missed them, then u arent checking this thread awesome enough.

but here Sidelle, this is just for you: http://youtu.be/ajMzpiyZ4GA?list=PL25C75E567A8DF6DC

^^LoL

[Sirken]

hes currently in season 4. at some point he stopped doing episodes and only does "parts" now. hes getting lazy but they are still A+ imo

the Baelish segments are by far my favorite

[Patriam1066]

I just finished watching Preston's videos... I see why you think Jon Snow is an idiot now Sirken....
How certain are we that Mance wrote the pink letter? It's obvious that it wasn't Ramsay, and while Mance was always one of the main candidates, I'll admit I didn't see mance's manipulation of Jon, at least not to that extent. VERY INTERESTING STUFF!!!! Mance just moved way up the "I see what you did there" scale and Jon moved way down. Preston's videos are almost as bad as the books, I'm hooked.

[Sirken]

I just finished watching Preston's videos... I see why you think Jon Snow is an idiot now Sirken....
How certain are we that Mance wrote the pink letter? It's obvious that it wasn't Ramsay, and while Mance was always one of the main candidates, I'll admit I didn't see mance's manipulation of Jon, at least not to that extent. VERY INTERESTING STUFF!!!! Mance just moved way up the "I see what you did there" scale and Jon moved way down. Preston's videos are almost as bad as the books, I'm hooked.

i was making a play on words because Ygritte always says "you know nothing Jon Snow". but, since we are on the subject, Jon Snow is an idiot for the same reason Ned Stark was an idiot. that stupid stark honor, "im jon snow, im a bastard, i swore an oath, bla bla bla" and then he decides to up and break his oath in front of everyone, and is shocked that it turned into a Julius Caesar moment.

as far as the pink letter, it could be Mance surely. all the mention of wildling stuff supports it. and i cant think of anyone else that could have sent that letter from winterfell (especially when you consider whoever wrote the letter clearly doesnt hold Jon in the highest light, and most of the north would since they believe hes neds bastard son). if i had to bet money today, id bet it was Mance.

although, im not sold on the A+B=J & R+L=D theories

[Patriam1066]

i was making a play on words because Ygritte always says "you know nothing Jon Snow". but, since we are on the subject, Jon Snow is an idiot for the same reason Ned Stark was an idiot. that stupid stark honor, "im jon snow, im a bastard, i swore an oath, bla bla bla" and then he decides to up and break his oath in front of everyone, and is shocked that it turned into a Julius Caesar moment.

as far as the pink letter, it could be Mance surely. all the mention of wildling stuff supports it. and i cant think of anyone else that could have sent that letter from winterfell (especially when you consider whoever wrote the letter clearly doesnt hold Jon in the highest light, and most of the north would since they believe hes neds bastard son). if i had to bet money today, id bet it was Mance.

although, im not sold on the A+B=J & R+L=D theories

I caught the pun, I just missed Jon's stupidity... Mainly because I missed what was going on behind his back. Him announcing his intentions to desert was definitely an act of supreme hubris and idiocy.

I'm not sold on the Jon / Dany parentage theories either, but of all his videos, I found the "Pink Letter" ones to be the most compelling. I thought someone attached to the Night's Watch sent the letter, but it definitely seems like Mance. Good videos and something to think about.

[Mandalore93]

Started watching those Preston videos...my hat is on and in the tinfoil position.

[Sirken]

Started watching those Preston videos...my hat is on and in the tinfoil position.

I KNOW RIGHT!

other than the Pink Letter (which i do believe Mance sent), those theories are crazy as absolute fuckall. and yet, its strung together so well that there's nothing glaring obvious i can point to in order to discredit the theories.

granted he takes a few leaps of faith here and there, but still there's nothing in my arsenal to disprove his leaps. usually i avoid tinfoil, but god damn if this isn't the tastiest tinfoil ive ever been fed.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/ll_Crayola_ll7/Gifs/trey_parker_tinfoil_chomp.gif

[Patriam1066]

I KNOW RIGHT!

other than the Pink Letter (which i do believe Mance sent), those theories are crazy as absolute fuckall. and yet, its strung together so well that there's nothing glaring obvious i can point to in order to discredit the theories.

granted he takes a few leaps of faith here and there, but still there's nothing in my arsenal to disprove his leaps. usually i avoid tinfoil, but god damn if this isn't the tastiest tinfoil ive ever been fed.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/ll_Crayola_ll7/Gifs/trey_parker_tinfoil_chomp.gif

Yeah....
This guy is definitely a conspiracy theorist. The letter being written by Mance seems likely.
As for R+L=D.... I don't see this matching up with the timeline. It could all be a red herring, but the evidence supports R+L=J (as in these are the most likely candidates to be his parents). The Dornish Master plan, while interesting, goes off the hinges in part 3/4. The Brave Companions and Marwyn could definitely be aligned with the Martells, and the "game with two players" that Varys referred to could indeed be referring to Illyrio and Doran competing to get a Targaryen / dragon to secure the throne. I highly doubt Dorne is trying to promote Arianne as the sole claimant to the IT by replacing the Westerosi legal system with Dornish law... Seems like an awfully convoluted, and more importantly damn near impossible plan, when they could back Aegon / Dany or simply anyone else that would have Dorne partially on the the throne. Seems to me like "The Dornish Master Plan" is to destroy the Lannisters primarily... Any martell that could be placed on the throne is gravy.

I hope Preston is right though, especially about the Horn of Joramun awakening the Children of the Forest. That would be legit.

[Sirken]

Yeah....
This guy is definitely a conspiracy theorist. The letter being written by Mance seems likely.
As for R+L=D.... I don't see this matching up with the timeline. It could all be a red herring, but the evidence supports R+L=J (as in these are the most likely candidates to be his parents). The Dornish Master plan, while interesting, goes off the hinges in part 3/4. The Brave Companions and Marwyn could definitely be aligned with the Martells, and the "game with two players" that Varys referred to could indeed be referring to Illyrio and Doran competing to get a Targaryen / dragon to secure the throne. I highly doubt Dorne is trying to promote Arianne as the sole claimant to the IT by replacing the Westerosi legal system with Dornish law... Seems like an awfully convoluted, and more importantly damn near impossible plan, when they could back Aegon / Dany or simply anyone else that would have Dorne partially on the the throne. Seems to me like "The Dornish Master Plan" is to destroy the Lannisters primarily... Any martell that could be placed on the throne is gravy.

I hope Preston is right though, especially about the Horn of Joramun awakening the Children of the Forest. That would be legit.

heres my biggest problem with the dornish master plan videos; the glass candles, at the absolute earliest do not start burning until the end of book 1 (the glass candles stopped working when the dragons died off, we have to assume they only started working again when Dany's dragons were born), and i dont see how Marwyn or Doran for that matter could have known what Dany (or her dumb brother) were up to, especially when they were with Illyrio, as Illyrio and Doran would have supposedly been playing this chess game for nearly 15 years at the start of book 1.

that being said, i still cant wait for his next tower of joy video :p

[Sirken]

Season 5 Sandsnake info - http://youtu.be/8M4QdRH46Dw

[Aenor]

I'm just imagining all the nerdgasms when it was announced that Dr. Bashere was playing Doran Martell.

[radditsu]

I'm just imagining all the nerdgasms when it was announced that Dr. Bashere was playing Doran Martell.

Oh man. Now I got to watch this show.....

I bet he dies in his second episode thus wasting all my time and giving me heartache.

[Sirken]

Oh man. Now I got to watch this show.....

I bet he dies in his second episode thus wasting all my time and giving me heartache.

u clearly dont watch GoT.

he will be dead before the opening credits of E1. they might even go back in time to take out his parents so that Doran ever existed.

Westeros is srs business

[Sirken]

tower of joy part 3 - http://youtu.be/CXGBP4SVwcc

[Mandalore93]

Started re-reading for the third or fourth time again a few days ago.
One of the first Catelyn chapters really sums up why I dislike her character so much

Paraphrasing here: "Oh Gods, they must not let it come to war"

Minutes fucking later: Let's kidnap the son of a notoriously ruthless lord who has wiped out several families already, some for merely insulting his family. Also, let's do this on the basis that a man called the imp for his size and intelligence gave the assassin his own dagger. Fuck ya!

[Patriam1066]

tower of joy part 3 - http://youtu.be/CXGBP4SVwcc

I can't refute any of this, but I'm not buying it. It is interesting though.

I wonder what theory he's going to come up with as to why Drogo married Dany....

[LulzSect]

http://i.imgur.com/52dk8B1.jpg

would get sansa pregnant

[Sirken]

I can't refute any of this, but I'm not buying it. It is interesting though.

I wonder what theory he's going to come up with as to why Drogo married Dany....

i could make that video in 5 seconds.


"fade in".

Drogo says: "why not?"

"The End"

[Patriam1066]

i could make that video in 5 seconds.


"fade in".

Drogo says: "why not?"

"The End"

Lol exactly, which makes me wonder what possible evidence for a conspiracy he could've found.
Also please ban everyone on RNF

[Sirken]

Bowen Marsh confirmed for season 5 - http://watchersonthewall.com/bowen-marsh-cast-game-thrones-season-5/

[Sirken]

i just wanted to use my 7,000th post to bump this amazing thread!


Religions of Ice and Fire - http://youtu.be/IX9IJfCNEHY

[Aenor]

So Sirks do you think Jacob improved his position with his timeline argument? I'm not enough of an expert to say one way or another. Calling out all these fools in the comments who can't deal with the fact that kingsguard can be given ANY kind of order from their King, including go guard my son's bastard. Stupidest argument that gets repeated over and over: Viserys says Danny is my sister so it must be so! Cause this sociopath who thinks they're drinking secret toasts to his return can be trusted to be completely in tune with reality on other subjects!

[Sirken]

PJs video on Dany and Drogo - http://youtu.be/vWdKBveYFwg

[Patriam1066]

PJs video on Dany and Drogo - http://youtu.be/vWdKBveYFwg

This one was weak.... Not sure why I expected something more outlandish

[Swish]

Don't cross her...

http://www.viralline.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/4-yGSxfbc.gif

[LulzSect]

Kristian Nairn is currently gallivanting around Australia on the Rave of Thrones DJ tour. Why isn’t he at work back in Europe, you ask? Well, because, as he revealed in an interview with Australian Broadcasting Corporation (via Uproxx), his character, the loveable Hodor, and Isaac Hempstead-Wright’s Bran Stark don’t have any screen time next year. “We’re not actually in Season Five, by the way. We have a season off. We have a year’s hiatus.” The Irish actor went on to say that he imagines they were given the year off because, “our storyline is up to the end of the books.”

http://decider.com/2014/09/03/final-shots-game-of-thrones-season-five-hodor/

[Sirken]

no bran or hodor in season five

wonder what other chars will be on hiatus

[Aenor]

Several synopsis' of grrm readings plus chapters previously on his site:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/178998773/Tyrion-I-II-summary-The-Winds-of-Winter

[Sirken]

i cant read the WoW chapters. i read a barristan PoV chapter, and i feel like punching myself in the face for dropping book 6 spoilers on myself

[Aenor]

Desperate times.

[Patriam1066]

I've been rereading a Feast for Crows, mostly because I hated it and missed a bunch of shit that happened. ANYWAY:

"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian." He remembered the one he had faced in the haunted forest, and how it had seemed to melt away when he stabbed it with the dragonglass dagger Jon had made for him. "I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly they could not stand against it."

"Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?"

"That was my first thought as well."

"So if I can just convince the lords of the Seven Kingdoms to give us their Valyrian blades, all is saved? That won't be hard." His laugh had no mirth in it. "Did you find who the Others are, where they come from, what they want?"

That's from Chapter 5... I had always assumed that Dragonsteel meant Valyrian steel, because of no real alternative, and because I assumed at this point that Jon was going to be extremely important. I completely missed the Long Night part...
If dragonsteel is Valyrian steel, that would make absolutely no sense so far in the past, at least in my opinion.

Any ideas what Dragonsteel means? I would still assume that it's Valyrian steel, but like I said, that doesn't exactly make sense.

[BurgyK]

Cant wait for the ultimate twist where Jon has to stab Danny in the heart to create light bringer...

[Patriam1066]

/sigh - i know way to much about this place. i just reread my post, and even my inner nerd was like, /facepalm

Good points about dragon not being valyrian steel, not sure about the arsenal though.

At this point I find anything to be plausible, and it's reasonable, though unlikely, that the Iron Throne would have some greater purpose than simply the aesthetics of fear. I think it's an entertaining viewpoint... I'm gonna laugh when you're right

I can't believe we're five books in and no closer to finding out what the hell is going on. Well played GRRM

As for the post directly above, yeah, I think Lightbringer is going to be made in some manner like that. I'm hoping it's made by sacrificing Melisandre in a dragon fire conflagration. Hate that B

[Patriam1066]

Any good book suggestions while we wait for #6?

I just read Starship Troopers and Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein, both are great. But if I wanted some fantasy, any recommendations?

[Sirken]

Any good book suggestions while we wait for #6?

I just read Starship Troopers and Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein, both are great. But if I wanted some fantasy, any recommendations?

the Vlad Taltos series by Steven Brust is A+

[Sirken]

jesus. sirkens a true fucking believer.
u got a bad case of da got autism dawg

i know. my post made me wanna go kill myself for so many reasons :(

[BurgyK]

Just finished reading king killer chronicles. Pretty good fiction. If you're still looking

[BurgyK]

Also I was hoping melisandre would die while rezzing Jon burning away his starkness and making him have white hair, but chances are Bran will look back in time and figure out he was lianas and rhaegars son.

[Sirken]

Also I was hoping melisandre would die while rezzing Jon burning away his starkness and making him have white hair, but chances are Bran will look back in time and figure out he was lianas and rhaegars son.

im curious, how did u forsee Melisandre dying while doing that?

also Bran would require Weirwood Trees to see the past at any given location, and sadly there are no Weirwoods at the Tower of Joy. so Bran wouldnt be able to see who or what occurred there :( but Howland Reed knows ;)

[BurgyK]

I figured it would be similar to what happened to Beric Dondarrion. And damn there goes my Bran theory

[Sirken]

I figured it would be similar to what happened to Beric Dondarrion. And damn there goes my Bran theory

as far as what happens to Beric, surely hes clearly suffering from rezz effects, but Thoros (the guy that rezzed him) did not die. Beric only died so that Cat could be brought back after the RW.

and so i don't see how Melisandre is in any danger should she rezz Jon

that being said, you should check out Preston Jacobs on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA) guy has awesome tinfoil theories that are near impossible to prove wrong (however that still doesnt mean i agree with him).

enjoy

[Frieza_Prexus]

For all we know the Tower of Joy & Starfall could have had a God's Wood. I know all the southron weirwoods are supposed to have been axed, but maybe a few escaped for Bran's pleasure.

[Sirken]

ToJ was Rhaegars happy place. he worshiped the 7, as did his wife. theres no reason to have a weirwood. and since ToJ is between Dorne and the Stormlands, we know the terrain is mostly mountains and desert.

surely anything is possible as none of us know enough about the ToJ, but i just think its very unlikely. im convinced Howland Reed is the only living person that knows what transpired at the ToJ on that day.

[Patriam1066]

Will check out those books, thanks for the recommendations. I have Name of the Wind in my car, I just haven't gotten around to reading it. Re-read the silmarilion here a while ago, then went into Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein. Still haven't read Dune and I hear that's a must too.

Haha PJ (preston jacobs) posted something about the great northern conspiracy... Coming from this guy this should be fucking good. I'm really glad I'm like 7 beers in after a bar night reading this, I love this guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ1JLlqY7XI&list=UUXU7XVK_2Wd6tAHYO8g9vAA

[Sirken]

yar, i saw that. tbh, i wasnt crazy about this video. but still entertaining ;) for example, i dont think cat wanted winterfell, i think she just didnt like Jon enough to support him. also Rickon, im convinced will be scooped up by davos, i dont think hes with Moors Umber. steak and kidney pie versus deer pie could easily be an author error, like certain people eye colors as well as the gender of Sandor Clegane's horse. and PJ cant really be right about davos bringing rickon to moors because all these things are happening at the same time as far as we know

edit- also the reason the umbers only have old men and young boys is because all the fighting men went south with the greatjon umber to fight with Robb.

[Mandalore93]

I highly doubt that Rickon's guide would have brought them to the Umbers, the major Stark bannerman closest to the wall and probably the most hostile to wildlings such as Osha. Unless she's been magically ditched.

My latest thinking on the series has been the probable inaccuracy of the strength of the Iron Islands and Robb's seeming inability to fight off what should have been an easy fight.

[Sirken]

I highly doubt that Rickon's guide would have brought them to the Umbers, the major Stark bannerman closest to the wall and probably the most hostile to wildlings such as Osha. Unless she's been magically ditched.

My latest thinking on the series has been the probable inaccuracy of the strength of the Iron Islands and Robb's seeming inability to fight off what should have been an easy fight.

Mors Umber HATES the wildlings. Mors had two sons that both died in Roberts Rebellion. his last child was abducted by wildlings. Mors only swears fealty to Stannis after Stannis agrees to serve up Mance Rayder's skull to Mors after they kill him.

unless Osha turns out to be the abducted daughter of Mors, then i believe Mors would kill any wildling on sight. except Ygritte, because, well you know :cool:


what do u mean about the iron islands? are u saying they should be stronger or weaker? cause remember they are just pillaging pirates that refuse to farm, trade, or raise livestock. and as far as Robb, which fight are you referring to? as far as i remember he never lost a battle. but he also never went up against another main host. it'd be like Tywin's host tearing through smaller stark forces that Robb was not leading.

<3

[Mandalore93]

They should be far weaker given the description of the Iron Islands as well as their geographic site. Given that Westeros from Dorne to the wall is about the size of South America for a rough scale estimate let's say that the Iron Isles are about the size of Cuba all put together (very generous estimate). There's really not a way I see them fielding 20,000 swords. This combined with the fact that the North still has aroun 15-25k men lying around combined with the fact that the Iron Born suck at organized land warfare indicates to me that the North should have been very easy to hold for Robb. There are quite a few lordly members who are ostensibly veterans of several wars lying around. The heir to a masterly house (Cerwyn) is also in the North during this time if I recall correctly. We know for a dead fact that there are at least 5,000 summonable soldiers just from two areas. 2k from around Winterfell (Source:Sack of Winterfell) and around 3,000 from the clans.

Robb over-rated as fuck. Tear that entire family down. But don't post that in reddit, you'll get like 50 downvotes for no reason other than the circle jerk.

[Sirken]

well, imo the Iron Islands are pretty weak. as far as their numbers, i dunno where u got the number 20,000, because that does seem a bit absurd, considering that'd be about the strength of the entire north, and equal to or greater than the south. i imagine that they are closer to 4,000-5,000 men. also remember, they are only really successful on the water. yes they took winterfell from a skeleton crew, but Asha says from the beginning they couldnt hold it, because its true, they cant. if they had 20,000 people, then they could hold winterfell np.

Robb was indeed surrounded by smart veterans, but he was too god damned retarded to listen to any of them. yes, he won all his battles, but Robb Stark made every possible bad decision that he could have possibly made. i know the reddit nerds loved him, but wtf, Robb wasn't even a PoV character, and he kept fucking up over and over again. it was only a matter of time imo.

[Mandalore93]

The twenty thousand figure is semi canon from a role playing game released a few years ago. That's about half the strength of the seven kingdoms on average. Most lord Paramount's can summon somewhere between forty and fifty thousand under optimal conditions. I think a more realistic figure for the iron isles is ten thousand. And that's like full mobilization, every man available type of deal. Which would make their invasion of the north a huge joke and plot hole in the story. We know for a fact that there are still explicitly at least six thousand men left in the north. And those are only numbers drawn from the mountain clans, the dread fort and the levies from winter fell and it's subject master houses.

[Mandalore93]

The other argument people put up is that there aren't any commanders available in the north to lead a host. But there are at least two members of House Umber who are older and probably veterans of two wars as well as at least one member of House Karstark, both lordly houses. Also, pretty sure that the heir of house Cerwyn is in the north during the invasion. But that's only a masterly house.

To summarize, iron born invasion is a poorly planned plot device.

[Sirken]

i wouldnt consider anything from any of the games canon. and as far as army size and numbers go, i found a really great piece talking about it. as far as leaders, Mors Umber or Roose Bolton can lead hosts for the north (depending who u are cheering for). as far as the iron islanders invading the north, they werent suppose to, that was Theon's bonehead idea.
-----

We've been running into some unavoidable problems with army size and numbers; this was obvious by the end of Season 1 but it has reverberated into a bigger impact now that the War of the Five Kings has started.

I think its really an "elephant in the room" situation, where the problem is obvious but it is difficult to tackle head-on and we didn't really want to admit that the problem existed.

All of this centers around how in Season 1, they changed the size of Robb Stark's army at Whispering Wood and doubled the overall size of the Lannister army from 30,000 to 60,000.

Rather than dance around saying what actually happened, it isn't that hard to put forward an educated guess.

Take the following assumptions:

A - Robb Stark's army is outnumbered two to one in his underdog victory at Whispering Wood.

B - The Lannister standing army in the Riverlands was divided into two roughly equal parts, Jaime in the west and Tywin in the east. (Thus Robb's armygroup at Whispering Wood is one fourth the size of the total Lannister standing army).

C - The Reach, being the most fertile and populous of the Seven Kingdoms, can field an army almost twice as large as two others combined, in the 60-70,000 range. Each of the other regions of the Seven Kindoms can, on average, field a total standing army numbering in the 20-30,000 range (Dorne probably the least; but the Lannisters easily had 30,000, the Starks 20,000. And this was without scraping the bottom of the barrel with young boys and old men).

( I did NOT write this page, this is my own adding to this persons thesis, after reading it. I have the read the books and think I can help explain some of why that is. The reason why Starks Army has grown in size from the time they left Moat Cailin was for 2 major reasons; 1 of which you all probably know already, Walder Frey handed over his 4,000 troops, minus 400 who would stay to guard the Twins and Robb left 400 of his own as well so that's 3,200 extra troops right there. And the other reason; after leaving the Twins to march South, their next stop was Seagard where they would meet with Lord Mallister and join forces with his men ((House Mallister)). House Mallister at Seagard was one of the few Riverlords of Riverrun who were not yet under siege by Lannister hosts. However, the books did not specifically mention exactly how many men the Mallister force consisted of. Then, Stark and his allies forces grew in number once again when they liberated the Riverlords who were under siege after defeating Jaime Lannisters host.)

What the TV show changed in Season 1, was that it seems they didn't want to have to complicate things and introduce Roose Bolton that early, and explain how he was commanding during the Battle of Green Fork. So instead of dividing Robb's army in half at the Twins (well, 16,000 infantry go east, 6,000 cavalry go west, cavalry count more), they truncate and condense the Battle of Green Fork by saying Robb just sent a feint force of 2,000 and they were annihilated. We later see Roose Bolton with Robb at Oxcross. I do believe that they're going to send Roose Bolton back east to take Harrenhal later this season, which while I wince at it, isn't too much of a stretch (no reason they can't go back the way they came, or rather, even in the books Robb left much of his strength under Edmure to hold the Red Fork; Roose himself riding alone could transfer east and take command of new troops, not necessarily march thousands of soldiers back east...but I digress...).

At any rate, the logical result of all of this is that they *directly state*, in dialogue, that Robb has 18,000 men at Whispering Wood. As a result of condensing the plot surrounding the Battle of Green Fork.

The problem is that this upsets assumptions A, B, and C, which are all about *relative* numbers. Robb's force at Whispering Wood has to be outnumbered two to one. If he's got 18,000 men, it doesn't make dramatic sense if Jaime still has the 15,000 from the books. Because Robb didn't divide his army in half at the Twins, but took essentially the whole army west and only sent a light screener force east as a feint. Thus, to maintain dramatic consistency, they state in dialogue that the standing Lannister army in the Riverands has accordingly been *doubled* in size, now giving Jaime 30,000 at Whispering Wood and restoring the proportion ("Assumption A": Robb was outnumbered two to one) between his army and Robb's (well, more or less). Given "Assumption B", this was "half" the Lannister army, which means Tywin also has 30,000, for a total of 60,000.

Now as the story expands and we have to deal with the Baratheons and Tyrells, it gets more complicated, due to "Assumption C", "the Reach's army should be twice as big as the Lannisters".

At first, I just assumed that they were going to consistently double *all* of the armies in Westeros -- why not? Until I realized this was done as a QUICK FIX due to condensing the Battle of Green Fork.

Because the actual aired information hasn't been consistent as a result, and hasn't doubled everything else to keep it proportionate:

Renly states that his combined Tyrell/Stormlands army is "100,000 strong"...which is the number in the books. 20-30 thousand Stormlands, 60-70 thousand Tyrells. They didn't double it up to "200,000", to maintain the point that the Reach has a bigger army than the Lannisters.

NOR* did they do this for Robb Stark and the North: they also had (well, roughly) 20,000 soldiers enter the Riverlands in the books.

So suddenly, Robb's forces in the Riverlands weren't outnumbered two to one (overall), but THREE to one.

So currently, this means Tywin at Harrenhal has 30,000 men as opposed to 20,000 in the books. I honestly think/hope that the Stark situation will get back in line by saying he sends Roose Bolton back east and splits his army giving half to Bolton -- they just wanted to wait until season 2 to introduce Bolton. And there's not MAJOR logical impossibility to saying he split up his army later, what with essentially controlling the Trident north of the Red Fork.

But you see, the whole thing has been thrown out of whack as a result, particularly for this wiki: everything else goes by book numbers, both Renly's army and Robb Stark's (overall) army, but the size of the Lannister army does not.

I've already seen edits from new anonymous users who take the point that "the Reach has twice as many soldiers as anyone else", and thus doubles up their army to Two Hundreds Thousand (200,000).

How are we going to address this?

I personally vote that, given the overall match to the books by the Starks and Baratheons (in terms of total army size), we should just make a note in articles that the Lannister army size is a mistake.

It wouldn't be the first time the show made a short-sighted mistake, due to limitations of time and budget. Let me stress that I love the job the TV creators have been doing, and they have to worry about the task at hand. In Season 1, I doubt they were happy about truncating the Battle of Green Fork given how this has a domino effect on what happens with Bolton and the eastern Stark cohort. But look at "Yara Greyjoy" -->Anyone reading the books would point out that "Osha the Wildling" isn't as big of a character as "Asha Greyjoy", and in ADVANCE, they should have renamed the Wildling girl "Yara" and retained "Asha Greyjoy". But they didn't anticipate that they'd give "Osha" more scenes to do; this was a late idea. Maybe it was a late change that they take much of Green Fork out.

So doubling the size of the Lannister army really screws up a lot of our numbers with regard to army size. I bring it up now not so much out of my own obsession, but because I've already seen multiple users not sure of what to do with these relative army sizes an numbers.

This is one of this major questions that someone with access to "the grapevine" and major fansites like Westeros.org, possibly those who have a chance to meet cast & crew in person, should get around to at some point, i.e. Benioff, Weiss, Cogman, even GRRM.

Because come the Battle of the Blackwater, if circa 30,000 Stormlands soldiers are fighting *30,000 men* under Tywin, why would the Lannisters particularly need the Tyrells? (to the point that they're increasingly dependent on the Tyrells by "A Feast for Crows", which became a MAJOR plot point).

And all because they had to condense the Battle of Green Fork, thus essentially doubling the size of Robb Stark's army at Whispering Wood.

(Sigh). For want of a nail...--The Dragon Demands 05:36, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

George R.R. Martin wrote "The Pointy End" which details the size of Robb's army and his ruse with the scout. Robb marches 18,000 northmen south but lets the scout report 20,000. After splitting his force at the twins he has 16,000 northmen plus Frey reinforcements. The show clearly states that the Lannister force with Tywin in "You Win or You Die" numbers 60,000 and he splits it in half.

I think you are incorrect about Robb being outnumbered 2:1 at the Whispering Wood. Remember that in the books Robb tackles Jaime's army in a series of battles beginning with the Battle of the Whispering Wood and leading into the Battle of the Camps. AWoIaF says that Robb had a few hundred men with him at the Whispering Wood to Jaime's thousands. AWoIaF says that Robb's force was a third of the size of the Lannister force in the Battle of the Camps. What are you basing assumption A on?

We don't need to assume for B. Tywin clearly lays out in dialogue his decision to split his 60,000 strong forces in two in "You Win or You Die."

Assumption C seems true for the books but this is a wiki about the show.

I don't think they directly state in dialogue that Robb has 18,000 at Whispering Wood. When and who? I think they establish that he had 18,000 before splitting his force but do not clearly say what size force he fights with at Whispering Wood.

I disagree that Robb's force at Whispering Wood "has to be outnumbered two to one". As I've said above the assumption doesn't seem to hold true to information from the books. The TV show is an adaptation and has clearly made major changes to these early battles in the war; Robb need not be outnumbered by the same ratio in individual battles as he was in the book.

The Stormlands/Reach army with Renly is established as 100,000 strong in dialogue. We don't know how many more are with Mace at Highgarden. We don't know if Renly has other armies like the Lannisters do. We can't assume what will happen to the army in future episodes. In the book Stannis obtains numbers from the Reach portion including the fleet of House Florent. I don't think you can assume even numbers at the Blackwater on the basis of Tywin's force being increased alone - we have no idea how many men Stannis is fielding in the show at this point and cannot assume how many will join him before the Blackwater. Even if your assumptions hold and the size of Tywin and Stannis's forces are equal forming an alliance with the Tyrell's and outnumbering Stannis more than 3:1 in the battle is hardly a bad thing for House Lannister!

The show establishes in "The North Remembers" that Robb has won 3 victories. Whispering Wood is 1. Camps might be 2. Who was he fighting in 3? He might have bled some of Tywin's men in a battle in the Riverlands. He has now won 4 victories including oxcross.

The show is detailed enough about this that it is clearly a major difference in the adaptation and I don't think we should consider that a mistake without an independent source clearly stating that it was an error.

How are we going to address this? I personally vote that, given the overall match to the books by the Starks and Baratheons (in terms of total army size), we should just make a note in articles that the Lannister army size is a mistake.|The Dragon Demands}}

I strongly disagree with this proposal for two reasons. Firstly I don't think we should leap to assuming error, particularly on the basis of the flawed assumptions you have stated. Secondly I don't think we should put our speculation into our articles; we need reliable third party sources for this kind of thing. We should report the information that the show presents and offer comparison to the source material in the "In the books" section. I think a series of blogs speculating further about this are appropriate without sources but we should be very careful about stating that the show has made an error without reliable third party sources to back our assertion.--Opark 77 07:57, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

I would love to see this explored in an interview with the writing staff but fear that they would see it as nitpicking.--Opark 77 08:05, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

While I'm on the subject, we should really remove the "army size" entry from the template for Great Houses and Regions: it isn't actually informative. So what if the North has an army of "20,000"? It's even been a stated plot point in season 2 that almost all of those 20,000 are in the Riverlands now, leaving the North wide open to the Ironborn. What good does "overall standing army" size do? Were we planning on updating this on an episode by episode basis? Yes, there is and should be a "military strength" category on say, "The Reach"....pointing out that *in general*, historically, they tend to have an army twice as big as any other. But it really shouldn't be part of the infobox. --The Dragon Demands 05:36, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. It is informative and removing it makes the article less informative. It is interesting to note the size of a region's army. The infobox should present the factual data within the article in a summary style so I'm happy with it being in the infobox if it is in the military strength section.--Opark 77 07:57, April 27, 2012 (UTC)

Stannis has the largest army after Renly's bannermen joined him.
Commander19907 08:29, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Stannis blatantly does not have the largest army after Renly's bannermen joined him. Renly had 100,000...of which two-thirds serve House Tyrell and didn't join Stannis. He did instantly go from having a mere 5,000 to some 20-30,000 men, enough to attack King's Landing and drastically outnumber the small garrison left behind there (the bulk of the Lannister army is with Tywin in the Riverlands). --The Dragon Demands 18:56, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

[Mandalore93]

Why are you quoting me show material? They very clearly white wall certain characters and change things to make them seem like the under dog. But after oxcross, Robb has half again the army of tywin.

[Patriam1066]

Feudal armies need farmland for food and supply. There's no way the Iron Islands have anywhere near as many soldiers as most of the other major houses. I could be wrong, but as the Iron Islands are the Somalia of Westeros, I doubt they have much power beyond their fleet and a few raiding parties.

[Sirken]

Why are you quoting me show material? They very clearly white wall certain characters and change things to make them seem like the under dog. But after oxcross, Robb has half again the army of tywin.

ummmmm, because the show is more canon than some random old game that GRRM wasn't involved with? and had you read the wall of text, you would have seen it compares show numbers with book numbers (ex: stormland numbers), as well as addresses things that the show has skipped (Jaime lifting the siege at riverrun).

[Sirken]

Feudal armies need farmland for food and supply. There's no way the Iron Islands have anywhere near as many soldiers as most of the other major houses. I could be wrong, but as the Iron Islands are the Somalia of Westeros, I doubt they have much power beyond their fleet and a few raiding parties.

this is true, they usually raid ships and steal their stock (ie: food, wine, females). i wouldnt call them somalia since they have the worlds best navy, but sure close enough

[Mandalore93]

I don't think we're on the same page here sirk. I'm talking exclusively about the strength of the north solely above the neck. So bugger the strength of the wester lands and what strength Robb has!

Just saying that grrm's weakness with scale creates a bit of a plot hole in how the iron born are even remotely a threat. As for it being theon's fault, the longships were already called. Theon's plan was to take lannisport and make Casterly Rock his seat. It was only once he was in the north that he decided to take winter fell

[Aenor]

I agree that Theon ever thinking he could take and hold the north is a major plot hole. Even holding Moat Calin, there are enough northerners still in the north that Theon could never convince a sufficient force to disobey his father, abandon their strength at sea and attempt to hold a continental land mass with a raiding party off a few ships.

However, I'm going to take the conversation even further afield because I'm rereading the books and I just don't see how Cat and Robb could be so dumb as to leave Bolton at their backs. BTW, part II of the Northern Conspiracy was just posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IlzXQVKpbM

It left me even more confused and more motivated to get to the last two books in my current reread so I can make sense of it.

So here's MY plot hole. Early in the war, Robb succeeds in securing two choke points of incalculable strategic significance: Moat Cailin and the Twins. If Walder Frey tells Robb to fuck off, he has no choice but to march down the King's Road and meet Tywin's massed force. With the twins secured, Robb can now make his gambit to break the siege of Riverrun and gather the river lords under his banner.

When the decision is made to split his forces and try to win through to Riverrun, Cat convinces Robb to put Bolton in command of his Eastern force. Cat's desperation to break the siege of Riverrun is understandable, but there's no question that they realize the risk they're taking. They're attempting a sneak attack on Jaime that could leave them all dead. They know that Bran with no army can't hold the North if their retreat is cut off. If their suicide mission fails, as it stands a strong chance of doing, the only hope for House Stark to avoid extinction is to be able to retreat back through the Twins to Moat Cailin.

If the Stark line fails, who is first in line to rule the North after them? Cat and Robb would know the answer to this question instantly.

Once Bolton is given the Eastern command he does exactly what you would expect him to do, given House Bolton's historic rivalry with House Stark. He rushes his forces headlong into Tywin's while keeping his personal force in reserve, thus extinguishing as much Northern strength as he possibly can while preserving his personal forces.

Sure, Robb is a boy and Cat is one of the stupidest characters in the series. But you can't tell me they didn't have some loyal commander from their personal forces at Winterfell to stop them and say "overextending all the Stark forces while leaving Roose Bolton in command of your rear is an incredibly stupid idea."

Robb should have left commanders and forces of direct loyalty to the Starks to hold Moat Cailin and the Twins. Instead of Bolton pushing the forces of the other Northern lords ahead of him like lambs to the slaughter, the opposite should have happened. Robb should have had the bulk of Bolton's forces as the vanguard from the Whispering Wood all the way to the Battle of the Camps. If they lose, the cavalry retreats to the Twins and Robb possibly wins back through to Moat Cailin with enough of his personal force intact to hold the North indefinitely, even if he has lost the Riverlands to the Lannisters.

Secondly, the orders for the Eastern force should NEVER have been to engage Tywin's force, much less rush headlong into them at the end of a forced march as they sit there well provisioned and rested. With the strategic choke points of the Twins and Moat Cailin secure, the Eastern force should have been sent to execute a feint against Tywin, harry his scouts and foragers and hope to lure as much of Tywin's force north as possible. The Twins can only be besieged if you have an army on both sides of the Green Fork. If the Eastern force succeeds in luring Tywin north, that force simply retreats until it divides to reinforce Moat Cailin and the Twins and Tywin is stuck looking at two unassailable fortifications and his forces well and truly divided.

Now, great commander that he is, maybe Tywin never takes the bait and leaves his Eastern army sitting on the Trident. This is still a positive result for Robb because if Tywin fails to besiege the Twins from the East, then his retreat to Moat Cailin is not cut off by land. The only possible bad result for Robb is what actually happens: A large portion of his Eastern force is expended because he left Bolton in command and his retreat is cut off due to Bolton's entirely predictable ambition and treachery.

Even if Tywin besieges the Twins from the east and Robb is utterly defeated by Jaime west of the Green Fork, Robb's force can still retreat to Seagard and take ship to Barrowton to reinforce Moat Cailin from the north. Sure, they might encounter difficulties with the Iron Islanders, but ships packed with battle-tested warriors are no easy meat for pirates. Whatever remains of Robb's force that can't fit onto the available ships reinforces Seagard and the Twins in a last stand.

Sure, I say all of this with the benefit of hindsight. But this strikes me as a major plot hole brought about by necessity. GRRM scripted the books out a certain way and he needed for Robb and Cat to fall right into Bolton's trap to tell the story he wanted to tell. As I said, though, there would have had to be SOMEBODY loyal to House Stark present at the Twins when the decision was made to divide forces who could have told Robb and Cat what a bad idea it was to leave Bolton in their rear. I call bullshit.

[Patriam1066]

I agree that Theon ever thinking he could take and hold the north is a major plot hole. Even holding Moat Calin, there are enough northerners still in the north that Theon could never convince a sufficient force to disobey his father, abandon their strength at sea and attempt to hold a continental land mass with a raiding party off a few ships.

However, I'm going to take the conversation even further afield because I'm rereading the books and I just don't see how Cat and Robb could be so dumb as to leave Bolton at their backs. BTW, part II of the Northern Conspiracy was just posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IlzXQVKpbM

It left me even more confused and more motivated to get to the last two books in my current reread so I can make sense of it.

So here's MY plot hole. Early in the war, Robb succeeds in securing two choke points of incalculable strategic significance: Moat Cailin and the Twins. If Walder Frey tells Robb to fuck off, he has no choice but to march down the King's Road and meet Tywin's massed force. With the twins secured, Robb can now make his gambit to break the siege of Riverrun and gather the river lords under his banner.

When the decision is made to split his forces and try to win through to Riverrun, Cat convinces Robb to put Bolton in command of his Eastern force. Cat's desperation to break the siege of Riverrun is understandable, but there's no question that they realize the risk they're taking. They're attempting a sneak attack on Jaime that could leave them all dead. They know that Bran with no army can't hold the North if their retreat is cut off. If their suicide mission fails, as it stands a strong chance of doing, the only hope for House Stark to avoid extinction is to be able to retreat back through the Twins to Moat Cailin.

If the Stark line fails, who is first in line to rule the North after them? Cat and Robb would know the answer to this question instantly.

Once Bolton is given the Eastern command he does exactly what you would expect him to do, given House Bolton's historic rivalry with House Stark. He rushes his forces headlong into Tywin's while keeping his personal force in reserve, thus extinguishing as much Northern strength as he possibly can while preserving his personal forces.

Sure, Robb is a boy and Cat is one of the stupidest characters in the series. But you can't tell me they didn't have some loyal commander from their personal forces at Winterfell to stop them and say "overextending all the Stark forces while leaving Roose Bolton in command of your rear is an incredibly stupid idea."

Robb should have left commanders and forces of direct loyalty to the Starks to hold Moat Cailin and the Twins. Instead of Bolton pushing the forces of the other Northern lords ahead of him like lambs to the slaughter, the opposite should have happened. Robb should have had the bulk of Bolton's forces as the vanguard from the Whispering Wood all the way to the Battle of the Camps. If they lose, the cavalry retreats to the Twins and Robb possibly wins back through to Moat Cailin with enough of his personal force intact to hold the North indefinitely, even if he has lost the Riverlands to the Lannisters.

Secondly, the orders for the Eastern force should NEVER have been to engage Tywin's force, much less rush headlong into them at the end of a forced march as they sit there well provisioned and rested. With the strategic choke points of the Twins and Moat Cailin secure, the Eastern force should have been sent to execute a feint against Tywin, harry his scouts and foragers and hope to lure as much of Tywin's force north as possible. The Twins can only be besieged if you have an army on both sides of the Green Fork. If the Eastern force succeeds in luring Tywin north, that force simply retreats until it divides to reinforce Moat Cailin and the Twins and Tywin is stuck looking at two unassailable fortifications and his forces well and truly divided.

Now, great commander that he is, maybe Tywin never takes the bait and leaves his Eastern army sitting on the Trident. This is still a positive result for Robb because if Tywin fails to besiege the Twins from the East, then his retreat to Moat Cailin is not cut off by land. The only possible bad result for Robb is what actually happens: A large portion of his Eastern force is expended because he left Bolton in command and his retreat is cut off due to Bolton's entirely predictable ambition and treachery.

Even if Tywin besieges the Twins from the east and Robb is utterly defeated by Jaime west of the Green Fork, Robb's force can still retreat to Seagard and take ship to Barrowton to reinforce Moat Cailin from the north. Sure, they might encounter difficulties with the Iron Islanders, but ships packed with battle-tested warriors are no easy meat for pirates. Whatever remains of Robb's force that can't fit onto the available ships reinforces Seagard and the Twins in a last stand.

Sure, I say all of this with the benefit of hindsight. But this strikes me as a major plot hole brought about by necessity. GRRM scripted the books out a certain way and he needed for Robb and Cat to fall right into Bolton's trap to tell the story he wanted to tell. As I said, though, there would have had to be SOMEBODY loyal to House Stark present at the Twins when the decision was made to divide forces who could have told Robb and Cat what a bad idea it was to leave Bolton in their rear. I call bullshit.

Yeah, I've always wondered why Roose would be chosen for command, given the historic hatred between the two houses that you've already mentioned. I simply attributed it to Robb being an idiot... like him sending off Theon to Pyke thinking that anything good would come of it. But you're right, there should've been someone loyal and intelligent enough within his camp to tell him that Roose should be kept close. Not sure what to say about it... it's definitely a plot hole and doesn't make much sense.

[Mandalore93]

Say it with me people, it was not Theon's plan to take the north. The reason he was sent to Pyke in the first place is twofold. Firstly, he's Balon's son. Secondly he's the one who came up with the alliance plan for the Islanders to attack the Westerlands.

Secondly, at the time of Roose taking command, he's done nothing treasonous that anyone's heard of. Even his eccentricities aren't known given his "quiet rule" policies. He's a seasoned commander and known for being level headed and a man who thinks. He is the logical choice at the time in comparison with the other idiotic lords. Even after he pretty much defies what Robb thinks he would do...he can't be relieved. He's one of the most powerful bannermen that Robb has. This isn't a centralized state where you can just pull generals left and right.

[Patriam1066]

Say it with me people, it was not Theon's plan to take the north. The reason he was sent to Pyke in the first place is twofold. Firstly, he's Balon's son. Secondly he's the one who came up with the alliance plan for the Islanders to attack the Westerlands.

Secondly, at the time of Roose taking command, he's done nothing treasonous that anyone's heard of. Even his eccentricities aren't known given his "quiet rule" policies. He's a seasoned commander and known for being level headed and a man who thinks. He is the logical choice at the time in comparison with the other idiotic lords. Even after he pretty much defies what Robb thinks he would do...he can't be relieved. He's one of the most powerful bannermen that Robb has. This isn't a centralized state where you can just pull generals left and right.

Balon is known to hate the Starks and to be vindictive. There is a 0% chance that Theon can convince Balon to join the Northern cause, and Robb should've been smart enough to know that. Balon's reputation isn't exactly a secret. By sending Theon, his only potential leverage over the Iron Islands, he's almost guaranteed that his coastline will be raided.

As for Bolton... you've made the case perfectly for why he shouldn't have been sent. He sent his most powerful bannerman to lead the larger portion of his host, with the Frey men. Frey is known to be deceitful (Cat doesn't trust him and has known him her entire life), and while I don't think Walder planned on betraying Robb until his marriage to Jeyne happened, it still wasn't adding up. Combine that with the very real possibility of feudal rebellion (how many minor lords have revolted against their King / Earl etc when given the opportunity) by Bolton, and he was setting himself up for failure. In short, the Young Wolf wanted Greatjon Umber to lead his other host and he should've trusted his first instinct. Never trust the man who has the most to gain from your failure.

PS: I hope in the show the Blackfish rides into battle playing Ride of the Valkyries on a lute as he dismembers the entire Bolton army, proceeding to flay Roose and Ramsay alive with a potato peeler. Picture Apocalypse Now with more brutality.

[Mandalore93]

The only thing I agree with you on is that sending Theon to Balon was an all around stupid idea and is basically the only thing that Catelyn is ever right about.

It's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't in this case. Sending anyone other than the head of the lordly house would most like be seen as a huge slight. His other lords are hot heads, Roose is chosen for his cool head. At the time of ACOK, Bolton has as far as everyone knows loyally served the Starks through two generations and three wars. His methodology is surely a bit different than others, but that's honestly what makes him a valued commander in this case. We don't even know for certain that Bolton was purposefully trying to weaken the Stark cause from the start, it just seems like it. Greatjon would have been the utterly worst choice. I think Karstark would have been the best choice. Remember, at this point his sons haven't been killed and he's no fool.

Also, I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'm pretty sure the majority of the Frey host marches with Robb to Riverrun.

[Sirken]

and Robb should've been smart enough to know that.
what has Robb ever done that shows u he had a single brain cell? every decision he made was wrong :(

[Patriam1066]

what has Robb ever done that shows u he had a single brain cell? every decision he made was wrong :(

Nothing. That's my point... He should've been smarter. Alas, he wasn't

[Sidelle]

what has Robb ever done that shows u he had a single brain cell? every decision he made was wrong :(

Nothing. That's my point... He should've been smarter. Alas, he wasn't
Eeyup... Robb is one if my biggest disappointments in ASOIAF. Before I ever read about the Red Wedding and learned his fate, I can definitely remember facepalming at his decisions about the Westerling girl and the Karstarks. It was so glaringly obvious after that things were gonna get ugly with Walder Frey. Crabby old fucks like him, who are known for their history as being an unreliable assholes, do not just accept the kind of insult that Robb dished out when he ultimately rejected the Frey girl.

I remember thinking: Why the hell did he do that!? A son of Ned Stark should have known better. He was raised by the most honorable man in the seven kingdoms, for fucks sake.

Anyway, I'm back to catch up on this thread now. I've been immersed in the Outlander series, re-reading them again and watching the show's first season :). I think recently someone here (Sirken maybe?) mentioned that someone was cast for the role of the Westerling girl for future episodes of GoT. My interest is piqued so I guess I'll be looking for some info about that.

<3

[Sirken]

I think recently someone here (Sirken maybe?) mentioned that someone was cast for the role of the Westerling girl for future episodes of GoT. My interest is piqued so I guess I'll be looking for some info about that.
<3
i swear i can trace every problem in my life to a woman. i could have warned robb and saved his life. and also, was not Sirken that told u that. afaik they merged the westerling girl into talisa and killed her at the RW to kill the theories about Rob possibly still having an heir ;)

[Aenor]

He's done nothing treasonous that anyone's heard of.

I would call leading Robb's Western force on a forced march to barrel into Tywin's massed army while keeping his personal force in reserve so that it can retreat from the carnage intact and in good order treasonous. This was the opposite of why Bolton was chosen. He was chosen for his cool-headedness. Instead, he acted like you would expect the Greatjon to act, rushing in headlong against a massed force. Except that he kept most of his own force back.

There is a 0% chance that Theon can convince Balon to join the Northern cause.

Another plot hole the size of the Grand Canyon.

[Aenor]

I'm at the end of Clash of Kings now and I'm going to keep an inventory of plot holes because they're really starting to pile up.

So it was Edmure who ordered the Winterfell garrison at the Twins to go with Bolton to seize Harrenhal. I suppose this was Martin's way of spreading the stupid around among the Starks and Tullys to make it more believable. But first of all, the 400 men at the Twins aren't going to make a difference in taking a castle the size of Harrenhal. However, they're just the size force needed to hold the Twins and ensure Walder Frey's loyalty, at swordpoint if needed.

I'm past that part of the book so i don't remember if Edmure specifically communicated this to the garrison as a direct order from Robb. If the Winterfell men at the Twins weren't convinced it was Robb's orders, however, I can't imagine they would have obeyed, knowing what was at stake and having seen what a disaster Bolton's previous adventure was for the North.

Robb thinking it was the "honorable" thing to marry his Westerling sidepiece is more believable because he's a stupid child, but you could still poke holes in it. His dad got some trim on campaign and came home with a bastard but still kept his marriage vow with Robb's mother. Maybe Robb thought it was true love and worth throwing his kingdom away for but, come one. If he loves her that much he needs to consider their survivability, which depends on getting back through the Twins and retaking the North.

The obvious thing for Robb to do is conceal his new love, speak nothing of his intentions and show up at the Twins still maintaining the ruse that he intends to marry a Frey. Once he's back at the Twins with his army back in the East he can treat with Walder Frey and offer new terms (i.e. Edmure in his place). With Highgarden joining the Lannisters, Robb would know that he can't hope to hold the riverlands, only the North. Getting his army back above the Neck and retaking Winterfell would be his overriding priority at that point, and revealing his new piece of ass to the Freys at that point makes that difficult to accomplish.

Lastly, I just read the chapter when Ramsey takes Winterfell. Theon has just witnessed a force of Bolton men betray their liege lord and slaughter his castellan, other bannermen, knights and men-at-arms. They accomplish this feat while losing only 20-30 men according to Ramsey, meaning they're left with over 500 after Ser Rodrick's force is extinguished. Such a force is easily enough to storm the walls of Winterfell and take it from Theon's garrison of 17.

This strikes me as incredibly lazy writing. Martin could have dedicated two pages to the exceedingly brief siege of Winterfell whereby Ramsey took it by force. Theon is not a trusting character. He has enough base cunning to know that, if Boltons are slaughtering Stark bannermen, they're not likely to bow down to or spare Ironmen. So, plot hole the size of the Milky Way, Theon opens his gates to a superior force because, having witnessed Ramsey's force commit a supreme act of treachery, he naturally assumes that they'll be loyal to him? I'm losing respect for Martin by the page. This is what happens when you give people half a decade between books.

[Sirken]

Edmure's people do not question Edmure or ask him if those are Robbs orders. they follow chain of command no questions asked. thats what soldiers do and have always done.

i truely dont think Robb was aware of all the consequences of his actions. as you say, he was a dumb boy, and he grew up with a father that idolized "honor". and so Robb, interpreted "honor" in his stupid 16 yr old way, and , well, RIP.

in winterfell it is said that 50 men can hold off 5000 men. it was built as a defensive structure for protecting itself from outsiders.

;)

[LulzSect]

http://i.imgur.com/KkEuC6I.gif

[Sidelle]

^^LOL

[Aenor]

Edmure's people do not question Edmure or ask him if those are Robbs orders. they follow chain of command no questions asked. thats what soldiers do and have always done.

i truely dont think Robb was aware of all the consequences of his actions. as you say, he was a dumb boy, and he grew up with a father that idolized "honor". and so Robb, interpreted "honor" in his stupid 16 yr old way, and , well, RIP.

in winterfell it is said that 50 men can hold off 5000 men. it was built as a defensive structure for protecting itself from outsiders.

;)

Not Edmure's men at the Twins. Rob left men there before Riverrun was freed. And Theon didn't have 50 men :P

[Sirken]

Not Edmure's men at the Twins. Rob left men there before Riverrun was freed. And Theon didn't have 50 men :P

Edmure was the ranking man there. who else was there that out ranked Edmure or rather was left to direct those men. soldiers are sheep, they require a shepherd.

theon didnt need 50 men, that's the entire point of the saying. its not a literal translation, its an expression that was born out of how easy it is for a small amount of people to hold winterfell against a much larger host.

[Mandalore93]

Edmure is ostensibly the #2 man in the Kingdom of the North. I don't think he's ever technically stripped of being Lord-Paramount of the Riverlands, is he?

Had an argument on Reddit with a few people about how politically inept the Starks were. http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2j1h7b/spoilers_asos_why_didnt_tyrion_and_sansa/cl7m52n?context=3 if anyone is interested in reading/added on.

[Beastro]

Another plot hole the size of the Grand Canyon.

He could have if he'd presented it differently. The bigger issue I have is Balon rebelling and then targeting mainly the Starks ensuring that both him and the Starks are beaten that much quicker and his second rebellion crushed yet again instead of taking a few seconds to realize that working with them, or at least not fighting the Starks would ensure the Ironmen got what they wanted.

After that they could attack the Northmen if they wanted to, but not until the Crown was defeated.

The Iron Isles seems to be Martin subtly mocking the Vikings and showing them to not be awesome warriors we all love together but stupid, murderous idiots, but maybe I'm giving him too much credit.

[Beastro]

well, imo the Iron Islands are pretty weak. as far as their numbers, i dunno where u got the number 20,000, because that does seem a bit absurd, considering that'd be about the strength of the entire north, and equal to or greater than the south. i imagine that they are closer to 4,000-5,000 men. also remember, they are only really successful on the water. yes they took winterfell from a skeleton crew, but Asha says from the beginning they couldnt hold it, because its true, they cant. if they had 20,000 people, then they could hold winterfell np.

Only excuse for this would be the Iron Isle calling up a higher amount of men than other lands that needed men as farmers and other occupations. This and casualties possibly crippling them could be explained away by the taking of salt waves so they'd be able to maintain massive families the way polygamous societies do.

i guess its "possible" that Dragon Steel was the term used to describe Valyrian Steel before Valyria was a thing, but that would mean that Valyrian Steel isnt actually steel.

Valyrian steel is in universe speak for Damascus steel - the weapons made from it came from India and were only called Damascene through trade of them centered around that city. With that in mind I doubt it's wise to dismiss Valyrian steel as something the Valyrians invented, only made popular and could well have existed well before them.

[Sirken]

The Iron Isles seems to be Martin subtly mocking the Vikings and showing them to not be awesome warriors we all love together but stupid, murderous idiots, but maybe I'm giving him too much credit.
couldnt agree more. the Edmure thing was boneheaded, but i can see it from him. hes younger, hes eclipsed by the shadow of his father and uncle, looking to prove himself, etc. but Balon has no exuse. hes been in war, and hes lost before. after what he lost in the last rebellion, that being said, Balon never told Theon to hit winterfell, and had theon listened to Balon, things could have gone very differently. but alas, he didn't. and now we have Reek, rhymes with meek.


Valyrian steel is in universe speak for Damascus steel - the weapons made from it came from India and were only called Damascene through trade of them centered around that city. With that in mind I doubt it's wise to dismiss Valyrian steel as something the Valyrians invented, only made popular and could well have existed well before them.
my point is that there was not any kind of steel weaponry in westeros at the time of the Long Night. and as such Dragonglass can not be valyrian steel, damascus steel, super awesome wolverine steel, or any other kind of steel.

[Beastro]

hes been in war, and hes lost before. after what he lost in the last rebellion, that being said, Balon never told Theon to hit winterfell, and had theon listened to Balon, things could have gone very differently. but alas, he didn't. and now we have Reek, rhymes with meek.

Theon's crap is small potatoes, what I have in mind is more them dicking about around Moat Cailin and shit making it harder for the North to keep fighting ensuring they'll lose sooner (barring cloak and dagger shit like what happened) and then the Crown coming after them.

Had Balon been rational in the least he'd have hit the Lannisters as hard as he could them being distracted and far more wealthy than the Northerners all the while indirectly helping drag out Robb's rebellion longer and reducing the danger of the second revolt going the way of the first.

I think them going after the North is BS on Martin's part because he needed to find something to keep pressure on Robb even though he's never losing battles, only it took completely stupid thinking on Balon's part to make that happen, thinking that goes beyond my suspension of disbelief.

[Sirken]

correct me if im wrong, but dont they dick around MC as part of the plan to lure the few remaining troops out of winterfell? If balon was smart, he would have let the north and south fight it out while he continued to raid ships and small villages. i have no idea what his end game was, theres no way balon could be dumb enough to think the lannisters would let balon be "king" of the iron isles after the dust settled.

robb was dumb.

regarding balon... are you thinking Euron? Faceless? Clumsy?

[Beastro]

regarding balon... are you thinking Euron? Faceless? Clumsy?

You mean if Euron had more to do than just knock him off? No.

[Sirken]

You mean if Euron had more to do than just knock him off? No.

so youre thinking one of the most well known and recognized ironborn just snuck on to pyke unnoticed, and just gave him a shove, then snuck out, only to return a little bit later?

[Beastro]

so youre thinking one of the most well known and recognized ironborn just snuck on to pyke unnoticed, and just gave him a shove, then snuck out, only to return a little bit later?

No, but was the one which hired the person who did.

This prophecy is pretty self-explanatory: "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."