ASOIAF / Game of Thrones (SPOILERS INSIDE)

[bigshowtime]

U know when the 3 eye crow said bran will be able to fly

U ever think bran already knows how to fly , and is faking his crippleness this whole time cause he just slowed his fall down

[Beastro]

Oh, please. It's vague, but not that vague.

[Aenor]

Nah he's not faking. He would have got off his ass and booked it to the tree when those zombies were coming. Hodor would have been like John Goodman in The Big Lebowski.

[Sirken]

Bran would have gone back to climbing walls asap if he wasnt crippled.

was lookin at the youtubes, came across this again, and laughed, again.

Book Reader VS. Show Watcher

http://youtu.be/VmSUC0lHvn4

[Beastro]

Guys issue with the tree scene is Jojen dying but no mention of Coldhands?

Riiight.

[Sirken]

Guys issue with the tree scene is Jojen dying but no mention of Coldhands?

Riiight.

that was an episode 10 review. coldhands was already acknowledged and QQd over in a previous video ;)

my favorite part was "GRAVEDIGGER!"

[Aenor]

I can only give prestons new vid 3 stars. No old lady voice or singing.

[Sirken]

i dont like when he uses things as evidence that GRRM has already said he just made a mistake on (ie: the description of Robb's widow from jaime not matching the description from Cat

[Aenor]

Here you go, grumpkin fuckers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H_VTrTo8MU

[Funkutron5000]

I'm more into Snarks, personally.

[Sirken]

season 5 spoiler screen shots / photos

Tyrion spotted in a place he shouldnt yet be
http://mtv.mtvnimages.com/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:public.articles.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/spl869690_001.jpg?quality=0.8&width=980&maxdimension=2000


Cat of the Canals spotted in Bravos
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/276/files/2014/09/Game-of-Thrones-Season-5-Pics-Arya-as-Cat-meets-Ser-Meryn.jpg

[Patriam1066]

season 5 spoiler screen shots / photos

Tyrion spotted in a place he shouldnt yet be
http://mtv.mtvnimages.com/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:public.articles.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/spl869690_001.jpg?quality=0.8&width=980&maxdimension=2000


Cat of the Canals spotted in Bravos
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/276/files/2014/09/Game-of-Thrones-Season-5-Pics-Arya-as-Cat-meets-Ser-Meryn.jpg

Well I guess that's it for the show having any resemblance to the books, oh well

[Sirken]

also looks like they are cutting young griff, or at a bare minimum, arent including him for season 5 :(

[Sidelle]

season 5 spoiler screen shots / photos

Tyrion spotted in a place he shouldnt yet be
http://mtv.mtvnimages.com/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:public.articles.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/spl869690_001.jpg?quality=0.8&width=980&maxdimension=2000


Cat of the Canals spotted in Bravos
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/276/files/2014/09/Game-of-Thrones-Season-5-Pics-Arya-as-Cat-meets-Ser-Meryn.jpg
Is it possible the pic with Tyrion is from an episode toward the end of season 5? Or is it unrealistic to be hopeful they didn't cut/change the story too much at this point... :confused:

[LulzSect]

Damn. Guess he reaches Dany. Feels.

[Sirken]

Is it possible the pic with Tyrion is from an episode toward the end of season 5? Or is it unrealistic to be hopeful they didn't cut/change the story too much at this point... :confused:

anything is possible i suppose. but with cutting young griff, they will need to fast forward tyrions story to make up for cutting all the griff stuff. im hoping they introduce griff in season 6.

and yea it could be end of season stuff in regards to the pic, but i saw pics of the fighting pits, and it appears as though this season will end with Drogon coming back to Mereen and then riding off into the sunset with barristan going "err wtf".

real curious what Varys will be doing since he left with tyrion and wont be killing kevin. cersei gonna do her walk o shame

[Sidelle]

Well, to look on the bright side of things... When they change major events/plots specifically for the show, at least it brings back some element of surprise to those of us who read the books repeatedly (as we literally wait years for new books to be released :().

It's refreshing to not always know what's gonna happen next in the show, imo.

[Aenor]

No boob left bare. Not classic.

[Sirken]

Well, to look on the bright side of things... When they change major events/plots specifically for the show, at least it brings back some element of surprise to those of us who read the books repeatedly (as we literally wait years for new books to be released :().

It's refreshing to not always know what's gonna happen next in the show, imo.

http://www.amazon.com/World-Ice-Fire-History-Westeros/dp/0553805444/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415303996&sr=8-1&keywords=world+of+ice+and+fire

[Sidelle]

http://www.amazon.com/World-Ice-Fire-History-Westeros/dp/0553805444/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415303996&sr=8-1&keywords=world+of+ice+and+fire
Neat! :) It's going right on my Xmas list, along with A Feast of Ice and Fire: The Official Game of Thrones Companion Cookbook (http://www.amazon.com/Feast-Ice-Fire-Official-Companion-ebook/dp/B006L7CG58/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415310529&sr=8-1&keywords=game+of+thrones+cookbook).

[Patriam1066]

http://www.amazon.com/World-Ice-Fire-History-Westeros/dp/0553805444/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1415303996&sr=8-1&keywords=world+of+ice+and+fire

GRRMartinez isn't getting any more of my $$$ until he comes out with book 6. Fack


Also does anyone else think Preston has gone full retard lately in his videos?

[Littlegyno 10.0]

FUK

[Sirken]

although! he does make really good points about how much power the maesters truly have.

now i need him to make a video about where the F are ned starks bones, and where is howland reed

[Patriam1066]

although! he does make really good points about how much power the maesters truly have.

now i need him to make a video about where the F are ned starks bones, and where is howland reed

Yeah, he has some good evidence for the maesters. I do think he's off base with Luwin though. At least I didn't think Luwin was purposefully being manipulative or leading the Starks astray. He SEEMED loyal from my perspective. Who knows....


If he does soem Howland Reed videos that would be hilarious, because he would be pulling evidence straight from his ass haha. As for Ned's bones, they will be used to resurrect a SuperWight witch will lead the Others into battle

[Sirken]

although, one thing he does mention about Howland, is the fact that howland was beat up by 3 16yr old squires, yet manages to save neds life from arthur dayne at the tower of joy.

[Mandalore93]

That was prior to his visit to the isle though, wasn't it?

[Aenor]

Naw. Haters.

[Mandalore93]

Well, either way I think we read way too much into Howland saving Ned. This is sword fighting. Mere centimeters matter. All Howland would have to do would be to knock something off ever so slightly to make a world of difference.

[Aenor]

He threw a frog. Preston already explained it. Anybody got the world book yet?

[Sirken]

That was prior to his visit to the isle though, wasn't it?

Howl's Moving Castle / Howland Reed floating castle, coincidence?

Howlands visit to the isle was before the tourny, we are told that it was on his trip to the isle that he heard about the tourny.

[Sirken]

Well, either way I think we read way too much into Howland saving Ned. This is sword fighting. Mere centimeters matter. All Howland would have to do would be to knock something off ever so slightly to make a world of difference.

no. George RR Martin was asked, "in their primes, who is the best fighter from ASOIAF" and GRRM says that its a coin flip between Barristan and Arthur Dayne, and that if Arthur Dayne has Dawn he would be the better of the two. if you think sword fighting was a matter of luck, you havent been paying attention (c wat i did there ;) )

[Sirken]

He threw a frog. Preston already explained it. Anybody got the world book yet?

my pal does, apparently its like 1000 pages, im waiting for him to finish it, then im gonna read it, and then ill decide if i want to buy it

[Mandalore93]

no. George RR Martin was asked, "in their primes, who is the best fighter from ASOIAF" and GRRM says that its a coin flip between Barristan and Arthur Dayne, and that if Arthur Dayne has Dawn he would be the better of the two. if you think sword fighting was a matter of luck, you havent been paying attention (c wat i did there ;) )

I said nothing of luck, ser! If you've ever done any fencing you'd know that even a slight shift in posture can make the world of difference. Literally all Howland would have done would be to tug on Ned's cape to pull him back from a kill stroke. Or interposed himself for a bout or two between Ned and Dayne. We just don't know enough to make a statement one way or the other.

[Aenor]

What we do know is that everyone in ASOIAF are lying ass, baby swapping ass mufuckers. Trying to piece shit together via clues GRRM doled out is like trying to solve the reichstag fire.

[Sirken]

I said nothing of luck, ser! If you've ever done any fencing you'd know that even a slight shift in posture can make the world of difference. Literally all Howland would have done would be to tug on Ned's cape to pull him back from a kill stroke. Or interposed himself for a bout or two between Ned and Dayne. We just don't know enough to make a statement one way or the other.
im sticking with "he probably threw a frog at him"


What we do know is that everyone in ASOIAF are lying ass, baby swapping ass mufuckers. Trying to piece shit together via clues GRRM doled out is like trying to solve the reichstag fire.
so true, and so frustrating. i cant even trust what i read in PoV chapters, how in the hell am i suppose to trust the word of a maester writing the world of ice and fire, when one of his sources was the court fool?

[Mandalore93]

Going to use some Preston logic here.

Maggy the Frog
Howland is called a frog man

Howland warged into a female frog called Maggy and defeated Dayne.

[Sirken]

Going to use some Preston logic here.
Maggy the Frog
Howland is called a frog man
Howland warged into a female frog called Maggy and defeated Dayne.

i just really hope we get howland reed in book 6, he could answer so many questions.

we are confirmed getting a cersei flashback in season 5 with maggy the frog this year. should be interesting

[Aenor]

Season is going to be *Preston falsetto* AWESOME!! Spoil me all your spoilers! Can't believe I haven't heard shit about this world book ... makes me think it's not worth buying.

[Aenor]

Here we go! Here we go! One of the art pieces was apparently plagiarized from Skyrim and LOTR!

https://i.imgur.com/kPH2TrW.jpg

[Sirken]

if i buy a 1000 page book its not for the pictures, and if it was i wouldnt care what they were influenced by :P

[Aenor]

Well, check this out homie. There is a 30 day free trial for Audible, which is the audio book service on Amazon. When you sign up, you get two free books. I'm downloading the audio book for World as I type this. As long as you cancel within 30 days, you pay nothing, and you still have access to books you've downloaded. There you go ... a $30 audio book for $0. Next time I get mobs trained on me by some jackass bard in OOT, I expect heads to roll!

Also, isn't it only 350 pages, with a lot of that taken up by illustrations? Shit this audio book is over 21 hours. This old fucker who reads the books sounds like a maester, which is both appropriate and annoying. Seriously this dude's voice is so wavery, he sounds like he's about to fall over dead.

[Sirken]

you are correct, 336 pages, my mistake.

as far as the maester voice, its actually written from the PoV of a Maester, and so we sadly cant trust all of the information to be accurate anyway.
as far as the book, my buddy already bought it, ill read his copy and if its good enough to own, ill just buy it ;)

[Nocsucow]

See the new GoT game sirken........ Also check your mesahes

[Aenor]

Holy shit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIWX2fPx-5k#t=67

[Sirken]

See the new GoT game sirken........ Also check your mesahes

the one by tell-tale? yes, im very excited about it and expect ep1 by the end of the year.

[LulzSect]

Holy shit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIWX2fPx-5k#t=67

LOOK AT ME

Bowels quivered confirmed

[Sirken]

LOOK AT ME

Bowels quivered confirmed

i bet you at least 1 person in that room pee'd

[Sirken]

so excited http://youtu.be/6Q1vt9BX4Eg

[Sidelle]

Looking forward to this.

[katrik]

Totally off topic, but that actress who did Margaery Tyrell looked really cool in the new Hunger Games movie.

http://i.imgur.com/o0ihYbN.jpg

[Sirken]

well, that explains why half of her head was shaved at the GoT panel on the vid i was watching

[Sirken]

Looking forward to this.

yea, i just really hope each episode is a good 60-90 min long. im gonna cry if ep2 is only 30-40.

get me hooked with a solid ep1, and make me wait like 3-4 months for another good one = no bueno

[Sidelle]

Totally off topic, but that actress who did Margaery Tyrell looked really cool in the new Hunger Games movie.

http://i.imgur.com/o0ihYbN.jpg
I haven't seen the movie yet, but I read the books so I'm guessing that she's playing Joanna (iirc)? Definitely looks pretty badass. :)

[Mandalore93]

She plays a directer, can't remember it even though I just saw it today with some friends. Can't decide if I like it or not.

[Sirken]

i saw the black and white doors !!

http://youtu.be/AOtfhKX8vlo

[Sirken]

poor charlie

[Sirken]

welp, i played Game of Thrones Ep 1. nerdgasms were had.

so theres 3 people it bounces u around to. one seems pretty generic, one reminds me of Robb Stark, and one is a dumb female in KL, like Sansa.

simply amazing

[Vellaen]

I'm starting my second playthrough on the game now. I'll be interested to see just how much your decisions can change the progression of the plot.

I nearly jumped out of my chair when Ramsay killed the kid.

[Sirken]

I'm starting my second playthrough on the game now. I'll be interested to see just how much your decisions can change the progression of the plot.

I nearly jumped out of my chair when Ramsay killed the kid.

yea. my jaw dropped and i just sat there with a blank "wtf just happened" look on my face.

[Sirken]

i cant find it, but theres actually a quote or post by GRRM talking about how Danny's back story changed a slight bit as the world expanded after the first book.

i really hate when he makes a video on the premise of something that GRRM already acknowledged as nothing more than an error on his part. ie: jeyne westerlings descriptions from Jaime and Cat not matching, and the hounds horse changing sexes.

is prestons next video gonna be about how sansa must be a fake since her eues changed colors. if its not pubicly acknowledged by GRRM as an error then i say run with it, but if it is, dont waste my time

[Sirken]

preston - http://youtu.be/fNY7BDeAfdY

[Patriam1066]

I haven't liked his latest two videos. I will say I'm interested to see what he says about quaithe

I have no idea where he's heading with these red door vids lol, he's making more than just his usual leaps and assumptions

[Sirken]

he needs to get over the door thing.

GRRM already explained why dany's history changed a bit between the first two books. and its because he hadnt really fleshed out the world. once he had, he realized that politically it didnt make sense for dany to have spent time in the first city, not to mention it makes it harder to explain how Illyrio got his hands in that cookie jar.

[Aenor]

Fat bastard has his hands in all cookie jars.

[Sirken]

http://1ba238b114016b166035-0faff6120e10ee25937ffc06d7ea86b0.r40.cf2.rackcdn.c om/product-hugerect-164035-74925-1374188983-48df4557536af6682f3540cba5b0370c.374188984_type_hu gerect_nid_164035_uid_74925_0

[citizen1080]

lol nice

[Sirken]

finished the dunk and egg books last night. the world of ice and fire book is pretty cool. apparently they have asians in the far east.

starting the rogue prince later tonight maybe



Preston's Quaithe video - http://youtu.be/Slc1VIHB1Qk

[Mandalore93]

You just now read those you lazy slut?

[Sirken]

You just now read those you lazy slut?

i read the first 2 a while back, just never the third one :(

[Mandalore93]

I don't even enjoy those stories for the main plot but just for the world building. Granted the main story is still pretty good in my opinion. Did them on audiobook as well, the reader wasn't very good.

[Sirken]

find an old brittish guy that gives chars there own voices, makes things more fun. i just really want to know wtf went down at summerhall, because we all know it will be unveiled in a dunk & egg book

[Karney]

Just when I thought I was the biggest Song of fire and ice nerd.. Tons of awesome nerds out there I see.

[Karney]

if youre just joining us id suggest a skim through of the thread theres some pretty great discussions that have occurred ;)

Doing so now. =).. That Jon Snow theory.. I had always suspected it from book 1.. And here is the reason why. Ned is way to honorable to risk his honor sleeping around. The only way Ned would do so is to cover up some important sceme. It said clearly that Jon never favored Ned, but he did in fact favor his sister. I have had lots of crazy ideas on what could happen or could happen but the Author is in fact an asshole so I have been wrong several times before.

[Mandalore93]

R+L=J is just about canon at this point. If you really want to see some fucked up shit check out www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf - They've had way too much time on their hands.

[Patriam1066]

Preston's Quaithe video - http://youtu.be/Slc1VIHB1Qk

Not sure what to make of this, it certainly wasn't what I'd hoped it would be. Ashara could certainly be Quaithe, and while that would be interesting, I feel that he's steadily jumping to conclusions with even less evidence.

R+L=J is just about canon at this point. If you really want to see some fucked up shit check out www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf - They've had way too much time on their hands.

Do you recommend any of these threads which are particularly compelling? I was looking through a few of them, and many seem like troll bait or just baseless theories

[Mandalore93]

Pretty much anything that /u/BryndenBfish responds to or better yet writes up himself is incredible in the sheer amount of detail included. This guy could write his thesis on ASOIAF across several majors.
https://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/ is his site.

[Sirken]

...the Author is in fact an asshole ...
truer words never been spoken

Not sure what to make of this, it certainly wasn't what I'd hoped it would be. Ashara could certainly be Quaithe, and while that would be interesting, I feel that he's steadily jumping to conclusions with even less evidence.i still think we will learn that Ashara is Septa Lemore. Lemore is described as being at least 40, beautiful, has an outgoing friendly personality, with brown hair, and stretch marks that would indicate she gave childbirth. this would also be why we arent ever told Lemore's eye color, as those purple eyes would be a dead give away, since they were previously described as a "haunting violet"

[Mandalore93]

Of course though we've learned that our immaculate attention to detail that some of GRRM's details about physical characteristics are errors.

[Sirken]

Of course though we've learned that our immaculate attention to detail that some of GRRM's details about physical characteristics are errors.

yes but luckily he speaks up about those. because in series of books where readers are sometimes purposely mislead or given hints/clues, a legitimate error can throw a huge wrench into it.

[Patriam1066]

Ashara being Lemore makes sense, certainly more so than her being Quaithe, which, in my opinion, makes even less sense if you think (as preston does) that Dany is Rhaegar and Lyanna's daughter. Why wouldn't she be helping Jon not continuously fuck up if she's actually his mother?

Preston had too much eggnog I think

Also, thanks for the link Mandalore, making my lunch break far more entertaining

[Mandalore93]

Dornish "master plan" requires that Doran is either a master or knows what a plan is. Even attributing all the knowledge in the world possible to him at the ending of Robert's Rebellion he's still allying himself to an exiled house (The Targaryens) with absolutely no power against the very solid power block of the Rebellion (The Vale, The North, The Riverlands, Stormlands, and the Westerlands) with only Dorne (the weakest of the kingdoms) at his call for sure and possibly the Reach. He wouldn't be able to call on the Golden Company (since they're Blackfire supporters/loyalists) and even at the start of AGOT it's clear that Viseris would never be a great commander of men. Only does the introduction of magic into the world allow Danny to do anything ever.

[beyondinfin]

Did you guys hear about this little tidbit...Jan 23-29th, you can see GAME OF THRONES IN IMAX!

http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/06/game-of-thrones-at-imax-theaters/

It will be epsiodes 9 and 10 from season 4...and a season 5 trailer! Hope to god they play it near me.

[Mandalore93]

Much more important than the stupid show is that GRRM's publisher tweeted that TWOW is not on her 2015 schedule.

[Sirken]

Dornish "master plan" requires that Doran is either a master or knows what a plan is. Even attributing all the knowledge in the world possible to him at the ending of Robert's Rebellion he's still allying himself to an exiled house (The Targaryens) with absolutely no power against the very solid power block of the Rebellion (The Vale, The North, The Riverlands, Stormlands, and the Westerlands) with only Dorne (the weakest of the kingdoms) at his call for sure and possibly the Reach. He wouldn't be able to call on the Golden Company (since they're Blackfire supporters/loyalists) and even at the start of AGOT it's clear that Viseris would never be a great commander of men. Only does the introduction of magic into the world allow Danny to do anything ever.

Doran is extremely smart. theres a much better chance that we as readers are purposely being left in the dark, than there is of Doran not being competent. Tywin even says "Doran is a cautious man, a reasoned man, subtle, deliberate, even indolent to a degree. He is a man who weighs the consequences of every word and every action". Tywin knew who was worth worrying about and who wasn't. GRRM also says: "Doran plays to win, whether at cyvasse or the game of thrones". i assure you that Doran Martell is no scrub with a half assed plan. and odds are, when Illyrio mentions to Varys that "this is no longer a game for two players", hes implying that at one time, it was. i think Doran has been that other player. the problem is, we actually dont know what either of them truly want.

[Mandalore93]

Tywin is certainly a normally good judge of character. However he is wrong about quite a few things. For one he leaves his daughter in charge as regent in King's Landing. He's wrong about Jaime wanting to leave the King's Guard. He's wrong about Tyrion's abilities. He's wrong about Robb's abilities.

I have no doubt that Doran is at least an able domestic ruler. However his head just doesn't seem in the game at all. He's literally blaming everyone for the death of his sister but the person responsible. He apparently never stops to think "hmm, how come my sister and her children didn't go with the rest of the royal household to Dragonstone where the king sent his own family? Hmm. Well, that's clearly not a valid thought to have. MAINLY FUCK THE REBELS FOR DOING SOMETHING THAT'S NOT EVEN UNCOMMON IN THIS UNIVERSE OR IN IT'S MEDIEVAL EQUIVALENT"

On top of that, I just don't think there's any world in which it would be possible for Doran's power block to break Bobby B's. Bobby B's power is pretty concentrated in comparison to whatever Doran can bring to bear. He'd literally have to foretell the birth of the dragons to think he'd have any realistic shot at this. This idea of plotting and scheming to put either the red/black dragon child on the throne is a great plot but it requires very specific machinery to make it look even remotely realistic. Even now in the current storyline most people have the black dragon child written off.

[Patriam1066]

Did you guys hear about this little tidbit...Jan 23-29th, you can see GAME OF THRONES IN IMAX!

http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/06/game-of-thrones-at-imax-theaters/

It will be epsiodes 9 and 10 from season 4...and a season 5 trailer! Hope to god they play it near me.

Good info, thanks bud.

`````````````````````````````````````

As for the debate about Doran, I'd have to agree with Sirken. He seems to be one of the more levelheaded and contemplative characters in the book, and he has more reason to be concerned about the outcome of the War of Five Kings than most, given the fate of his brother and sister. He's been scheming for a while.... whether he'll succeed, who knows. You're right about one thing though Mandalore, whatever he's plotting, won't have to do with military. I don't think we'll see a military alliance between the forces of Dorne and a sellsword company taking the Iron Throne, but I do think the Prince of Dorne is up to something much more subtle, and much more likely to be successful than that.

Either way, I took away from the text that Doran was one of the more intelligent characters. When I read the books, he was one of the few people that I respected but wasn't actually cheering for, mainly because I have no clue what he's up to. I seriously doubt, however, that he won't be important at the end.

PS: I don't think Doran hates the rebels because of what happened, I think he hates the Lannister's because of what they did to Elia. Obviously, an heir to the throne couldn't be left alive, but you can't expect reason to come into this. I'd want revenge too.

[Sidelle]

I've been neglecting this thread for a while and put re-reading ASOIAF on the back burner because goddammit I hate THIS ENDLESS WAITING for everything to unfold in upcoming books! It makes me crazy. Same goes for my second favorite series of books, Outlander by Diana Gabaldon. Her and GRRM shouldn't be allowed to leave their houses until they give us moar books! ;)

Anyway, been reading The Sunne In Splendour by Sharon Kay Penman in the meantime. It's "historical fiction" but she's pretty good at bringing the War of the Roses to life by weaving her story in with factual events of the war and the politics of that period in England.

[Mandalore93]

If you like historical fiction have you ever read any of Conn Iggulden's work? Absolutely loved all of his series. Bernard Cornwell also has some good work but I'm not a huge fan.

[Patriam1066]

If you like historical fiction have you ever read any of Conn Iggulden's work? Absolutely loved all of his series. Bernard Cornwell also has some good work but I'm not a huge fan.

Good recommendation, the emperor and conqueror series look interesting

I also like Ken Follett for historical fiction, although he peaked with Pillars of the Earth

[Sidelle]

If you like historical fiction have you ever read any of Conn Iggulden's work? Absolutely loved all of his series. Bernard Cornwell also has some good work but I'm not a huge fan.
Have not read these so will check it out. Thanks for the suggestions - I am constantly looking for new books these days and stories based on real historical events have always been my favorites.

Good recommendation, the emperor and conqueror series look interesting

I also like Ken Follett for historical fiction, although he peaked with Pillars of the Earth
Forgot about Pillars of the Earth. First heard about it when they made the mini-series and vaguely remember making a mental note to read it but I forgot, so thanks. :)

[Mandalore93]

Conqueror is my personal favorite. However, I've always loved the far east in general where as Rome has been done to death. I'd argue his second best are the Saxon Stories. set during Alfred the Great's reign in England. Audiobook on that one isn't the greatest unfortunately.

[Patriam1066]

I like Preston's new vid.... It's obviously still a stretch but he's on the way to something plausible. Also, if anyone can tell me with any degree of certainty what baelish is up to, I'd be impressed. I hate his character completely but I will admit I have no idea what he's planning (as in the big picture)

[Sirken]

Baelish might be my favorite character just because he keeps me on my toes. i have no real idea what his end game is, and i wouldnt believe anyone that said they 100% for sure did.

the video wasnt bad for shining a spot light in Baelish, but imo if he had a grudge against any family, itd be the starks. and clearly he want as much power as he can get. but thats all i got :(

[Patriam1066]

Baelish might be my favorite character just because he keeps me on my toes. i have no real idea what his end game is, and i wouldnt believe anyone that said they 100% for sure did.

the video wasnt bad for shining a spot light in Baelish, but imo if he had a grudge against any family, itd be the starks. and clearly he want as much power as he can get. but thats all i got :(

When I say I hate him, I mean as in I don't like his actions. He is definitely a compelling and entertaining character. I agree that probably no one who isn't clairvoyant knows what he's up to. And yeah, he definitely hates the Starks. I think he dislikes the aristocracy in general as well. He feels slighted and if he can cause as much trouble as possible, why not? It's always been my personal opinion that Baelish represents Martin in the books. Martin is the ass hole in RL, Baelish is his ass hole clone in ASOIAF, just trolling everyone.

That said, he's up to something... obviously. I think he's enjoying watching the great houses squirm in the process.

Davos / Arya 2016

[Patriam1066]

Forgot about Pillars of the Earth. First heard about it when they made the mini-series and vaguely remember making a mental note to read it but I forgot, so thanks. :)

Pillars is a great book, I haven't met anyone who didn't like it. However, don't read the sequel, it's a huge disappointment. I'm starting to read Follett's century trilogy, hopefully it'll be as good as pillars

WHOA. how dare you describe Lord Baelish as "scummery"

im really hoping Sansa doesnt magically turn into some dumb emo bitch. hopefully they bring her along slowly. i like that shes learning how to play "the game". but that should be a very long process, especially considering Sansa's starting point. sadly, i do fear that she will ultimately be the end of Baelish. Should Sansa ever learn of Baelish's role in Ned's death, or the release of Jaime (this second one resulting in Karstak killing the other Lannister prisoners, which led to Robb beheading Karstark, which i believe was the final straw for the northern lords that betrayed Robb at the red wedding), then Sansa will end Baelish, or force him to end her.

I want Arya to kill Baelish. It's probably gonna be Sansa though. Poetic if you ask me. The only thing is, at this point, what can Sansa really do? Obviously she can destroy Baelish, but if she has a sense of self awareness, she has to know that he's her only chance for survival / regaining position in life. Sansa never struck me as being honorable like the other Starks... I think she'd choose her own relationship with Baelish in a bid for self preservation over revenge for her family.

[Mandalore93]

Absolutely disgusting. When I first started reading ASOIAF I thought GRRM would be a luminary who finally had the person who would win in real life actually manage to win in the novel. Sorry kiddies, but in real life Sansa is already getting fucked ten times a day by Baelish who is now Lord-Paramount of the Riverlands and acting Lord-Protector of the North and Vale.

[Patriam1066]

Absolutely disgusting. When I first started reading ASOIAF I thought GRRM would be a luminary who finally had the person who would win in real life actually manage to win in the novel. Sorry kiddies, but in real life Sansa is already getting fucked ten times a day by Baelish who is now Lord-Paramount of the Riverlands and acting Lord-Protector of the North and Vale.

I could be slow but I have no idea what you just said lol

[Sirken]

Pillars is a great book, I haven't met anyone who didn't like it. However, don't read the sequel, it's a huge disappointment. I'm starting to read Follett's century trilogy, hopefully it'll be as good as pillars



I want Arya to kill Baelish. It's probably gonna be Sansa though. Poetic if you ask me. The only thing is, at this point, what can Sansa really do? Obviously she can destroy Baelish, but if she has a sense of self awareness, she has to know that he's her only chance for survival / regaining position in life. Sansa never struck me as being honorable like the other Starks... I think she'd choose her own relationship with Baelish in a bid for self preservation over revenge for her family.

im thinking Baelish will use her in a plan, and she'll see an opportunity to let him die by not doing her part in the plan. its simple, sweet, and believable. i dont think book 6 Sansa will be anything like book 1 Sansa. shes one of the characters that has come a long long way in terms of "growing up" fast.

[Sirken]

Absolutely disgusting. When I first started reading ASOIAF I thought GRRM would be a luminary who finally had the person who would win in real life actually manage to win in the novel. Sorry kiddies, but in real life Sansa is already getting fucked ten times a day by Baelish who is now Lord-Paramount of the Riverlands and acting Lord-Protector of the North and Vale.

why would Baelish do anything to Sansa? all the vale lords want Baelish dead. raping Lysa's niece would give the vale lords all the ammo they needed to toss Baelish out the moon door.

Baelish is smart, he knows Sansa is worth a thousand times more as a virgin, and as potentially the last living Stark kid. doing anything to ruin that would be the absolute dumbest shit Baelish could do.

now if Sansa was being held by the mountain, sure, i could see her being raped daily.

[Sidelle]

i dont think book 6 Sansa will be anything like book 1 Sansa. shes one of the characters that has come a long long way in terms of "growing up" fast.
Agreed. I think it would be a mistake to underestimate sweet little innocent Sansa. All of the horrors she's been forced to endure since leaving Winterfell would have broken her if she were truly just the angsty, naive, shallow teenage girl from book one that we all thought she was. She is a survivor and I really believe she has it in her to become a major player in the Game - especially now, because of her proximity to Littlefinger. I think she is gonna learn a lot from "good ol' Uncle Littlefinger".

I am gonna be seriously disappointed if, for the rest of the series, she continues to be nothing but a powerless political pawn to be used by others. I wanna see Ginger Minge #2 (LoL) go on a sneaky rampage, slaying her enemies and getting some sweet revenge. It's probably too much to hope for, though. :rolleyes:

(Edit)
P.S. I would LOVE to see an Arya and Sansa family reunion for the above-mentioned sneaky rampage.

[Patriam1066]

We'll see. I definitely think she's a changed (for the better) version of Sansa. But I think that means she will become more manipulative and self aware, like Baelish. I'm not so certain that she will play a huge role in avenging the Starks. Will she elevate herself to a position of power? Sure, I could see that. But I think Jon Snow will be fighting the Others (in addition to whatever the hell else he can try to accomplish) and Arya will be doing the Stark vendetta killings.

im thinking Baelish will use her in a plan, and she'll see an opportunity to let him die by not doing her part in the plan. its simple, sweet, and believable. i dont think book 6 Sansa will be anything like book 1 Sansa. shes one of the characters that has come a long long way in terms of "growing up" fast.

I could certainly see that happening, but my question is, if her choices are marrying Harry the Heir after Robin has some sort of untimely Baelish inspired accident, making her the 2nd/3rd (after Harry and Baelish) most powerful person in the Vale, would she throw that all away just to get revenge?

If anything, I think Sansa's transition has made her more like Baelish, rather than more like a Stark. I don't think she's worried about honor, but rather she's learning how to play the game of thrones, particularly how to gain power.

TLDR: I think Sansa will play the game as long as it continues to benefit her, whereas someone like Arya will be motivated purely out of righting past wrongs. When is the damned book coming out

[Patriam1066]

Agreed. I think it would be a mistake to underestimate sweet little innocent Sansa. All of the horrors she's been forced to endure since leaving Winterfell would have broken her if she were truly just the angsty, naive, shallow teenage girl from book one that we all thought she was. She is a survivor and I really believe she has it in her to become a major player in the Game - especially now, because of her proximity to Littlefinger. I think she is gonna learn a lot from "good ol' Uncle Littlefinger".

I am gonna be seriously disappointed if, for the rest of the series, she continues to be nothing but a powerless political pawn to be used by others. I wanna see Ginger Minge #2 (LoL) go on a sneaky rampage, slaying her enemies and getting some sweet revenge. It's probably too much to hope for, though. :rolleyes:

Yeah I agree with this completely. I just wonder what it actually means. Does it mean kill Baelish? Or does it mean use him like he's trying to use her? I'd lean towards the latter

[Mandalore93]

In the very specific mechanisms of the book, Littlefinger has very little reason to rape/rape marry Sansa. Within the medieval and even Renaissance it was very common to wife up your captive womenz pretty much instantly. One of the latest ones I can think of was King Gustav of Sweden before the Thirty Years Wars fucking up the Electorate of Brandenburg then fucking that guy's daughter after capturing her.

Edit: I think that with the way the plot narrative is going that it's very obvious that the Starks will unfortunately make a come back from their lackluster performance and Petyr will be sacrificed for the narrative. Very unfortunate. Realistically, a player of Petyr's skill would dangle Sansa infront of the Vale for as long as possible before marrying her himself. He would lose control of her (and the North) if she is married to Harry the heir.

[Patriam1066]

haha mandalore who are you for dude? Can't believe you guys like Stannis and Baelish, they remind me of Dick Cheney

Davos 2016.
As to what you're all saying about Sansa, I agree to a point. But the problem is, at least for book 6, how much can she really do? She can kill Baelish at will probably, but while the Iron Throne is in the hands of people who have a suspicion that Sansa was involved in Joffrey's assassination, she really doesn't have much going for her. She's safe in the Vale, but while there isn't more chaos in King's Landing, she doesn't have a good play outside of biding her time with Baelish. Why kill the only man who has a reason to keep you safe, when the rest of the realm, including lunatics like the Boltons, would like to marry her for Winterfell and the North?

I think it's far more likely that she will start manipulating Petyr, and depending on what transpires in the Winds of Winter, at some point in A Dream of Spring she can kill him or let him be killed.

As for Baelish' chances at winning in real life (as if this were a medieval fantasy instead of one with dragons), I don't know how much a lowborn man could accomplish. He could marry Sansa, and ascend the ladder that way, but what northern lord would kneel before him as the Warden of the North? I think Baelish is an interesting character who played his hand about as well as anyone did in ASOIAF, but unless he's working to put someone else on the throne, like Varys or something, I believe most of what he's done will ultimately be in vain. In that way, Martin did seem to make the books into something mirroring life (aside from magic/sorcery/undead/mythical creatures). Baelish' hubris, vanity, and ambition will get him killed, which is the case for a man like him. He is a man of many talents, but he never possessed wisdom. After all, we're all in agreement that the daughter of a girl he loved 20 something years ago is going to be his downfall. Talk about holding on past a point of being creepy... when a 16 year old girl is what gets you killed, you would not have been king in RL.

In contrast, Davos is wise, caring, has a huge dick (7 sons), and is legit as fuck. He obviously isn't going to sit the Iron Throne but I'm still cheering him on until he's 6 feet under.

I'm more or less being comical because I honestly have no idea what will happen, but I'd be SHOCKED if Baelish took the throne. Being clever and being wise are two different things, and most of the characters that we see fall are either honorable to the point of stupidity or immoral to the point of guaranteeing cosmic justice. Baelish seems to be the latter.

FINALLY, I listened to bryndenbfish or whatever's podcast on Dany's possible storyline in Book 6... seems very plausible. I hope to god he's wrong though

[Mandalore93]

Long term I don't see anyone but Jon sitting on the throne. He's also my favorite realistic candidate in terms of the novel. He's very progressive in his thinking. Very practical also.

I love Baelish because of how incredibly clever and opportunistic he is. He comes from nearly the bottom of the barrel (2nd generation noble of the lowest order) and is now Lord-Protector of the Vale, de facto Lord-Paramount of the Riverlands, and holds the (as far as the normal realm knows) heir to the north. Granted Sansa isn't the real heir since Bran and Rickon are alive. Granted if Robb's wishes are heeded then Jon takes precedence over them all seeing as he is the heir to the Kingdom of the North and Riverlands.

In terms of "real life" probability there aren't any true up start stories like his as far as I know in any of the "major" medieval kingdoms. Certainly none that are one generation with that kind of jump. Outside of medieval Europe, China has a few similar stories in Liu Bang (founder of Han) and Sima Yan (Founder of Jin). I also think we're placing a too high notion on the opinion of lords' honor. Historically and in the novels it's pretty clear that they can either be manipulated or bought off a lot of the time. These are two areas that Baelish excels at and he clearly has mad administrative skills to boot. I don't even think his obsession is with his "love" of Catelyn/Sansa but more his utter and complete hatred of being shunned for not being good enough for the nobles.

Only two I can really think of in Europe would be the Tudors (became kings through the female line of a legitimized bastard by killing the King of England at Bosworth Fields - More like Robert Baratheon) and the initial Capetians who I'm pretty sure were the mayors/nobles of Paris after the death of the last Carolingian King. After that almost all major royal lines in Europe come from cadet houses of either Hapsburg or Capetian.

[Patriam1066]

Long term I don't see anyone but Jon sitting on the throne. He's also my favorite realistic candidate in terms of the novel. He's very progressive in his thinking. Very practical also.

I love Baelish because of how incredibly clever and opportunistic he is. He comes from nearly the bottom of the barrel (2nd generation noble of the lowest order) and is now Lord-Protector of the Vale, de facto Lord-Paramount of the Riverlands, and holds the (as far as the normal realm knows) heir to the north. Granted Sansa isn't the real heir since Bran and Rickon are alive. Granted if Robb's wishes are heeded then Jon takes precedence over them all seeing as he is the heir to the Kingdom of the North and Riverlands.

In terms of "real life" probability there aren't any true up start stories like his as far as I know in any of the "major" medieval kingdoms. Certainly none that are one generation with that kind of jump. Outside of medieval Europe, China has a few similar stories in Liu Bang (founder of Han) and Sima Yan (Founder of Jin). I also think we're placing a too high notion on the opinion of lords' honor. Historically and in the novels it's pretty clear that they can either be manipulated or bought off a lot of the time. These are two areas that Baelish excels at and he clearly has mad administrative skills to boot. I don't even think his obsession is with his "love" of Catelyn/Sansa but more his utter and complete hatred of being shunned for not being good enough for the nobles.

Only two I can really think of in Europe would be the Tudors (became kings through the female line of a legitimized bastard by killing the King of England at Bosworth Fields - More like Robert Baratheon) and the initial Capetians who I'm pretty sure were the mayors/nobles of Paris after the death of the last Carolingian King. After that almost all major royal lines in Europe come from cadet houses of either Hapsburg or Capetian.

Nice historical context, I knew some of the european stuff but I'll confess I know nothing of Chinese history. Closest I ever got to "studying" the far east was reading about the Daimyo / Shogunate era of Japan, which was interesting, but it's more or less just feudalism + Samurai + Shinto as opposed to feudalism + chivalrous knights + the church.

I agree with you on Jon, he's my favorite realistic candidate for King, despite his numerous faults. I'd love Davos to somehow win, but that obviously has no basis in Westerosi reality.

My main issues with Baelish: yes, he's compelling, yes he's entertaining, and yes he has played the game well. But does anyone really think the man would make a good king? He's willing to start a civil war to advance himself. You're right about his motivations; he feels shunned by the nobility. I think he's aware that had he been the son of a great man, he would've been allowed to marry Catelyn, and more than just being bitter over her, he's bitter over his treatment from Hoster Tully and Brandon Stark. Regardless, bitterness doesn't make a good King. As far as I can see it, if Baelish gets a little bit smarter and a little less vain, he could become the legitimate ruler of the Vale. It would take some work, but he's a talented man, and could make it happen. I think he's going to get himself killed by trying to advance even further, and let's be honest, how could he possibly manipulate the Dornish, the Tyrells, etc, into supporting his claim for the Iron Throne. He could parley Sansa into taking the North and the Riverlands (until Bran/Rickon/Jon appear), but his behavior will inspire no loyalty. He's like Roose Bolton... no one is going to be following him unless they're plotting his overthrow in secret. I'm fairly certain he's advanced as far as he could have possibly hoped to, and it seems like for either lust over Sansa, or for power, he's going to get himself killed.

That said, I don't think Sansa takes him out, at least not in Book 6. I think Baelish is about to get manipulated by a clever girl who learned a lot in King's Landing.

[Mandalore93]

Ah! How could I forget Japan! The first person to ever unite the nation after a century of civil war rose from being a complete peasant! In fact all three of the unifiers rose from comparatively humble beginnings.

[Patriam1066]

Ah! How could I forget Japan! The first person to ever unite the nation after a century of civil war rose from being a complete peasant! In fact all three of the unifiers rose from comparatively humble beginnings.

Haha. Did not know that. I bet he wasn't like Baelish though. Also, the Japanese, post unification, were big ass holes until after WW2. They did some pretty reprehensible shit to their neighbors. So I guess I'm wrong... maybe he was like Baelish.

[Mandalore93]

Mhhm, thinking of two different eras I think. Toyetomi Hideyoshi rose from a peasant to serving as Lord Oda Nobunaga's sandal bearer. He showed initiative and rose through the ranks to become one of his leading generals. After Oda committed suicide (to prevent being captured by Mitsuhide Akechi) Hideyoshi force marched his army to defeat Mitsuhide. At this point it was him and Ieyasu Tokugawa together who could unite Japan. They fought a campaign right around Owari in the 1580s/1590s. Ieyasu decided to give in and let Hideyoshi win, since he figured he was old and that would leave Ieyasu in position to take control: Which he did after the battle of Sekigahara in 1600. The Tokugawa Shogunate would rule Japan until the 1868 Meiji Restoration.

[Sirken]

Nice historical context, I knew some of the european stuff but I'll confess I know nothing of Chinese history. Closest I ever got to "studying" the far east was reading about the Daimyo / Shogunate era of Japan, which was interesting, but it's more or less just feudalism + Samurai + Shinto as opposed to feudalism + chivalrous knights + the church.

I agree with you on Jon, he's my favorite realistic candidate for King, despite his numerous faults. I'd love Davos to somehow win, but that obviously has no basis in Westerosi reality.

My main issues with Baelish: yes, he's compelling, yes he's entertaining, and yes he has played the game well. But does anyone really think the man would make a good king? He's willing to start a civil war to advance himself. You're right about his motivations; he feels shunned by the nobility. I think he's aware that had he been the son of a great man, he would've been allowed to marry Catelyn, and more than just being bitter over her, he's bitter over his treatment from Hoster Tully and Brandon Stark. Regardless, bitterness doesn't make a good King. As far as I can see it, if Baelish gets a little bit smarter and a little less vain, he could become the legitimate ruler of the Vale. It would take some work, but he's a talented man, and could make it happen. I think he's going to get himself killed by trying to advance even further, and let's be honest, how could he possibly manipulate the Dornish, the Tyrells, etc, into supporting his claim for the Iron Throne. He could parley Sansa into taking the North and the Riverlands (until Bran/Rickon/Jon appear), but his behavior will inspire no loyalty. He's like Roose Bolton... no one is going to be following him unless they're plotting his overthrow in secret. I'm fairly certain he's advanced as far as he could have possibly hoped to, and it seems like for either lust over Sansa, or for power, he's going to get himself killed.

That said, I don't think Sansa takes him out, at least not in Book 6. I think Baelish is about to get manipulated by a clever girl who learned a lot in King's Landing.

im with you on Jon. and honestly, i can see Dany dying in some kind of way that will save all of the people. and for the record, i dont think baelish expects to be king, but again, i have no idea what that guy wants. i do however think however he knows theres limits to how far he can advance, and hes going to want to manipulate or influence events in such a way to place people there that like him. or do things for people to make them like him. baelish and the tyrells may not be pals, but they pulled off the purple wedding together ;)

[Mandalore93]

I'm pretty sure that Dany is going to come over to Westeros and turn truly insane (instead of just incompetent) before dying in the invasion of the Others.

[Patriam1066]

As long as she accomplishes something in that death I'm OK with that. If it ends with her being batshit crazy and a lunatic like Aerys, I'll be disappointed.

Ok, with Baelish and the Tyrells: Yes, they have mutual interests, and he knows their secret. But can he play that to the Iron Throne? I think not. Also, having Sansa, if he tries to utilize her to ascend, is going to lose him Harrenhal. Like I said before, I think he can realistically rule the Vale, or Harrenhal, but his choice to use Sansa to rise even higher isn't going to work out

[Mandalore93]

If there's anything that GRRM does, it's that he writes damn good deaths for his characters. I would count on that beyond anything else.

[Sirken]

dunno if u guys saw, but preston did his part 2 of baelish ;)

[Patriam1066]

Not bad
I still think it's very hard for anyone to have a concrete idea of what the hell baelish is doing. He's entertaining again at least.

Sirken you should check out those brynden b fish links mandalore put up here... In particular, the Battle of Fire series is extremely interesting. He speculates a lot like preston, but it seems like there's more hard evidence

Part 1 of 6:
https://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2014/02/21/a-dragon-dawn-a-complete-analysis-of-the-upcoming-battle-of-fire-part-1-the-gathering-storm/

[Mandalore93]

Five minutes in and he's already committing a huge, HUGE fallacy. He's equating modern finance with the medieval equivalent. Especially in A Game of Thrones the actual crown land of the Iron Throne seems to be pretty small (I.E. the lands ruled directly by the crown) and as such would have remarkably small revenue when you think of the entire size of the kingdom. Assuming that there was any significant taxes on the other kingdoms it still probably wouldn't be that significant since the throne relies on their constant consent to rule. It was actually very normal in English history for the throne to want to go to war and have to raise taxes/debt spending but end up using the army they raised via taxes to put down tax rebellions. The English crown was literally ALWAYS in debt pretty much from William's time onwards unless they repudiated their debts (which they did multiple times). So regardless of Littlefinger's competence/incompetence/planning it's actually super realistic for them to be in shit tons of debt.

[Mandalore93]

But I will say he makes an interesting case as always!

[Patriam1066]

Well, we do know that GRRM is writing the Iron Bank as some sort of an illuminati-like organization that can move the world when their loans aren't paid (illuminati-esque because of their power, not as in they don't exist/secretive/freemasonry etc). So given that context, I do think there's somethjg to be said for Baelish intentionally trying to draw the bank in. Do I have any evidence that it wasn't just robert being imprudent with money? Nope. But I think that part of it is plausible... We know that Littlefinger wants chaos. I just don't get what the hell Preston could possibly assume that Baelish is up to.

And you could be right. I'm just saying, in the context of ASOIAF, if one wanted to get the crown in trouble, pissing off the Iron Bank is a good strategy. I do think it's a stretch when he starts bringing up the Manderlys and others though. Baelish wouldn't want everyone in the kingdom to get PWNed

[Doors]

If anyone's looking for great reading material two things I love:

AWOIAF - http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Main_Page

This obviously contains massive spoilers so beware. I've read a ton from this website but its great, and I've found people actively update it pretty regularly.

A World of Ice and Fire:

Bought around Thanksgiving, finished it in two weeks. Another solid read.

Martin stated he doesn't plan on releasing Winds of Winter in 2015 which sucks, and the wiki has some reading material for Winds of Winter if you're interested.

[Sirken]

A World of Ice and Fire:

Bought around Thanksgiving, finished it in two weeks. Another solid read.

Martin stated he doesn't plan on releasing Winds of Winter in 2015 which sucks, and the wiki has some reading material for Winds of Winter if you're interested.

howd you like the chapter on Qarth?

[Beastro]

Five minutes in and he's already committing a huge, HUGE fallacy. He's equating modern finance with the medieval equivalent. Especially in A Game of Thrones the actual crown land of the Iron Throne seems to be pretty small (I.E. the lands ruled directly by the crown) and as such would have remarkably small revenue when you think of the entire size of the kingdom. Assuming that there was any significant taxes on the other kingdoms it still probably wouldn't be that significant since the throne relies on their constant consent to rule. It was actually very normal in English history for the throne to want to go to war and have to raise taxes/debt spending but end up using the army they raised via taxes to put down tax rebellions. The English crown was literally ALWAYS in debt pretty much from William's time onwards unless they repudiated their debts (which they did multiple times). So regardless of Littlefinger's competence/incompetence/planning it's actually super realistic for them to be in shit tons of debt.

Not to mention the Spanish Hapsburgs which dealt with many of the historical foundations of his worlds banking system. It fucked them in the long run but it took a sterile inbred to die to end their rule of Spain, not the machinations of the Genoese.

[Mandalore93]

Well Spain is a special case during the high middle ages/early modern period (1500-1650). They pretty much tanked their own economy by bringing in such massive loads of silver/gold from the Americas. Plus they then suffered from a problem that many countries would later suffer from. This problem being the upkeep and defense of far away territory. In particular the Spanish Netherlands would literally tank both them and their Austrian family during the 30 years war. Perhaps even to the point that the German states would have been steam rollered early on.

[Sirken]

GRRM confirmed no book 6 in 2015

[Vellaen]

The second chapter of the Telltale Games series is out today for PC and PS3/4. Trailer is here (http://winteriscoming.net/2015/02/02/new-trailer-for-telltale-game-of-thrones-the-lost-lords-released/).

[Tiggles]

Did I miss the discussion about the trailer?

Apparently the show has cut the Aegon/Jon Connington story from the show with zero casting and already having Tyrion heading to meet Dany.

I think this is a huge spoiler in two ways.

1. It means the show is going to diverge from the books in a big way.
OR
2. It means Aegon is a Fake Targ/Blackfyre lot a lot of people believe and actually won't be a driving force in the book.


Thoughts?

[Sirken]

trailer was interesting. Jaime in Dorne almost assures there will be no stone heart either. they could give her revenge plots to sansa maybe? who knows.

as far as Aegon, also had him pegged as a blackfyre or straight up fake, so not a big shocker there. just sucks cause now i know that any chapters with aegon are a waste of time.

the thing that pisses me off the most is the apparent cutting of Victarion and Euron. even moreso than Arianne Martell being cut, an i believe replaced with Oberyns whore from last season.

also saw Kevan and Lancel Lannister on the cast sheets, which means more changes, or they need to put Varys back in KL at some point

[Mandalore93]

I'm really starting to dislike GRRM for selling the rights to HBO at this point. Having a show finish your main plot for you when you've been writing since 1997 is honestly a bit sad and a disservice to your fans.

But for real, who actually thought that Aegon/Victarion were actually going to be important? Always felt like they were there to basically fill in more information on the world than driving the main plot. Same goes to Dorne. The entire Dorne sub-plot basically makes no sense when you remove reader omnipotence/omniscience.

[Sirken]

I'm really starting to dislike GRRM for selling the rights to HBO at this point. Having a show finish your main plot for you when you've been writing since 1997 is honestly a bit sad and a disservice to your fans.

But for real, who actually thought that Aegon/Victarion were actually going to be important? Always felt like they were there to basically fill in more information on the world than driving the main plot. Same goes to Dorne. The entire Dorne sub-plot basically makes no sense when you remove reader omnipotence/omniscience.

he prolly thought he could finish. dunno whyd he think that, but im sure he was like, "2 books in 7-8 years? no problem!". but yea, i feel your pain.

Victarion i really did. in the books he'll be how dany gets to westeros. but in the show i noticed something recently while rewatching season 4, Daario tells Dany that hes taken the Mereen Navy and their 93ish ships. now, at the time i over looked this, but i'm pretty sure now that its the set up to replace Victarion. i understand things need to be cut due to the sheer volume of the novels, and abundance of characters, plots, and storyline. but shit, Whitebeard, Coldhands, Strong Belwas, Stoneheart, Aegon, Connington, Arianne Martell, 5 sand snakes, Euron & Victarion, Moqorro, Penny, and im sure im forgetting more. it just gets frustrating.

but you know whats really frustrating, when the show just fucking kills people that arent dead in the book. i know that Jojen aint doing so hot, but i feel all he needs is some tea and a blanket, but apparently no one gives a hot shit about Jojen. and so the book just kills him, no spoiler warnings or anything.

hmpf

[Mandalore93]

I understand the reasons for some of the cuts and even some of the deaths. The show obviously needs to be more centered on the main characters just because of how much shorter they are than the books. The first audio book for GoT is 35 hours for example in comparison to the 10 episode season one.

Jojen is so dead in the books bro. I feel like that he's going to be some level of sacrifice for Bran to abandon his humanity and end up like Bloodraven.

Pretty sure that LSH was cut out so that Jon can be the first major character ressed on the show. Not like any of the show watchers actually really know the Lightning Lord after all. Although I think his reveal as Rhaegar's son is going to be so, so, so underwhelming compared to the books when I doubt 1 in 10 show watchers even know who Rhaegar is.

[Sirken]

I understand the reasons for some of the cuts and even some of the deaths. The show obviously needs to be more centered on the main characters just because of how much shorter they are than the books. The first audio book for GoT is 35 hours for example in comparison to the 10 episode season one.

Jojen is so dead in the books bro. I feel like that he's going to be some level of sacrifice for Bran to abandon his humanity and end up like Bloodraven.

Pretty sure that LSH was cut out so that Jon can be the first major character ressed on the show. Not like any of the show watchers actually really know the Lightning Lord after all. Although I think his reveal as Rhaegar's son is going to be so, so, so underwhelming compared to the books when I doubt 1 in 10 show watchers even know who Rhaegar is.

poor jojen. theres a theory that the red paste bran ate consisted in part of Jojens blood. i dont subscribe to it, but its out there.

as far as rezzing, Beric Dondarrion was rezzed right in front of Arya on the show. if viewers didnt catch that they need to stop watching imo.

and agreed 100% on the J=R+L stuff. in the book, its a very book deal, you learn a TON more about Rhaegar as well as Lyanna, and about where Ned was and what Ned was doing at the end of Roberts Rebellion. but youre right, most people have no ideas who Rhaegar is, and most viewers probably havent noticed that the only person with a bad thing to say about Rhaegar, was Robert.

Part of me believes they wont do R+L=J in the TV show

[Vellaen]

Part of me believes they wont do R+L=J in the TV show

I think it's actually safe to assume that plot point will carry over. Apart from the question "Who are Jon Snow's parents?" being what GRRM asked Benioff and Weiss to prove their attention to detail before he even allowed them to make the show, there's also little things like this:

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/R-L-J-Game-of-Thrones-630x423.jpeg

[Sirken]

well see. a lot can change over 7 years

[Mandalore93]

I think that they'll include it, but it'll have to be an over-the-top declaration. Kind of like in how the Lord of the Rings they had several major characters continuously repeat Aragorn's titles to him shortly before the Battle of Minas Tirith and waited to give him the sword until right before hand as well to impress it on the audience.

[Patriam1066]

trailer was interesting. Jaime in Dorne almost assures there will be no stone heart either. they could give her revenge plots to sansa maybe? who knows.

as far as Aegon, also had him pegged as a blackfyre or straight up fake, so not a big shocker there. just sucks cause now i know that any chapters with aegon are a waste of time.

the thing that pisses me off the most is the apparent cutting of Victarion and Euron. even moreso than Arianne Martell being cut, an i believe replaced with Oberyns whore from last season.

also saw Kevan and Lancel Lannister on the cast sheets, which means more changes, or they need to put Varys back in KL at some point

I can't believe Victarion and Euron aren't going to be in it. I hope this means that the show is just going in a completely different direction from the books. If they play no part in the books I'll be very disappointed. I was looking forward to the battle at Meereen but figured Victarion would play a greater role than that. Who knows

I'm really starting to dislike GRRM for selling the rights to HBO at this point. Having a show finish your main plot for you when you've been writing since 1997 is honestly a bit sad and a disservice to your fans.


Yeah. Couldn't agree more. At this point, I'm debating whether I even finish the show before the books are completed, because if they spoil the ending, that would almost ruin the books. I don't think they will, but it's bad when you're having to hope that they bastardize the source material because the author of it is such a dick.

[Patriam1066]

Lol I just watched the trailer. No worries, they're completely going away from the books. I'm happy about that. Now if we could just get the Winds of Winter I'd be ecstatic.

[Sirken]

we can hope i suppose

[beyondinfin]

No Kingsmoot or Stoneheart on this show is so bloody depressing...as is the fact that the show is beginning to emphasize certain characters vs others. I find it infuriating because it starts to bring on the questions of how important are certain characters to the books plot, and that really stinks. Im on my second read of the books and they blow the show out of the water (and the second read through is better than the first).

Im praying that GRRM gave D&D some kind of false/half ending, or D&D will craft their own story going forward...or maybe after the show ends GRRM can just say fuck it and throw us all for a loop in some badass epic ending, but either way the show is starting to ruin it (especially with that trailer), and that's just shitty.

PS If Jamie goes to Dorne then I predict him and Bronn go. I think Bronn will then take over Oakhearts part, since him and Jaime got all chummy in season 4.

[Patriam1066]

He's not a dick, he's fucking old. When you get that old let's see you try to complete something of that scale.

I couldn't complete it at any age. He's still a dick, but not for taking so long. That part is understandable: you can't force a muse to come to you. But he made a choice to sell the series to HBO way before he would be able to finish the books. Also, the only way he could redeem himself and leave the dick clique would be to make Davos king and have him ride a dragon while banging Melisandre and Dany simultaneously.

Favorite Vegetables:

1. Onion
2. Onion
3. Onion

[Mandalore93]

Martin was 41 when he began writing GOT. That's the height of most people's productivity/earning. He finished the first trilogy (all published) by 2000 then took another 11 years to write two more books. I think he just didn't realize how big an undertaking it would be at the outset. But by the point he sold the rights in 2007 I think he should have known then that his writing pace would probably be eclipsed by a show.

[Pint]

Was so disappointed when a friend told me the she would overtake the books. I don't have the will power to not watch the show first knowing that martin is going to pull a Jordan and keel over before finishing.

[Aenor]

But by the point he sold the rights in 2007 I think he should have known then that his writing pace would probably be eclipsed by a show.

Couldn't have known. Most of us go through life with the best of intentions. You can read through the history of this thread and it took some time for it to set in that the show was going to overrun the books. If Winds of Winter was coming out this spring, the show wouldn't be overrunning the books.

And yeah, he bit off more than he could chew, just like Robert Jordan. My pal that I played EQ live with back in the day gave me the first 6-7 books of Wheel of Time. I tore through them and realized he was only halfway done with the series at best. I told my pal Ratch right then that Jordan would never live to finish the series. I'll be amazed if Martin lives to finish his either. I think he's having trouble finishing it because his mind's already going.

[Tiggles]

trailer was interesting. Jaime in Dorne almost assures there will be no stone heart either. they could give her revenge plots to sansa maybe? who knows.

as far as Aegon, also had him pegged as a blackfyre or straight up fake, so not a big shocker there. just sucks cause now i know that any chapters with aegon are a waste of time.

the thing that pisses me off the most is the apparent cutting of Victarion and Euron. even moreso than Arianne Martell being cut, an i believe replaced with Oberyns whore from last season.

also saw Kevan and Lancel Lannister on the cast sheets, which means more changes, or they need to put Varys back in KL at some point

Sansa is totally going to take over the Coldheart role I think she is gonna start hanging traitors soon.

I don't think they are cutting my boy Euron because I subscribe to the theory that Daario is Euron and they are just trying to find a way to introduce it.

[Sirken]

Sansa is totally going to take over the Coldheart role I think she is gonna start hanging traitors soon.

I don't think they are cutting my boy Euron because I subscribe to the theory that Daario is Euron and they are just trying to find a way to introduce it.

ive read all the daario=euron theories (and heres a link to a list of them - http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/253zbx/). i just have a hard time accepting them. Daario isnt just missing, hes a hostage. we know where he is. for him to be euron would mean that the harpy group would have been ok with releasing arguably their most valuable hostage. i just dont see the greyjoys being super important to the show story. i mean what do Euron or Victarion actually do? Euron becomes king, and sends Vic to get Dany. Dany already has 93 mereen ships (as mentioned last season by darrio), they ships will be used to replace Victarions. the Show has seemingly cut the two horns from the show as well. so really, you can cut victarion and euron, and have asha win the kingsmoot.

in the books, i see Vic and Dany making a deal, he sails her west and she helps depose Euron. Dany would also need a navy to battle now that stannis is being back by the iron bank of braavos, and again Victarion can provide her with this.

but doesnt matter, cause i also feel Dany will die at the end. she'll sacrifice herself to save the rest of us in a very jesus'ish manner, essentially leaving the iron throne to Jon.

[katrik]

HOLY SHIT! Episode 1 got leaked on youtube!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqgdyn6wg7E

bahahaha!

[Patriam1066]

HOLY SHIT! Episode 1 got leaked on youtube!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gqgdyn6wg7E

LOL he turned his head and coughed. Also the dinklage part hahahaha

[Littlegyno 13.0]

ive read all the daario=euron theories (and heres a link to a list of them - http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/253zbx/). i just have a hard time accepting them. Daario isnt just missing, hes a hostage. we know where he is. for him to be euron would mean that the harpy group would have been ok with releasing arguably their most valuable hostage. i just dont see the greyjoys being super important to the show story. i mean what do Euron or Victarion actually do? Euron becomes king, and sends Vic to get Dany. Dany already has 93 mereen ships (as mentioned last season by darrio), they ships will be used to replace Victarions. the Show has seemingly cut the two horns from the show as well. so really, you can cut victarion and euron, and have asha win the kingsmoot.

in the books, i see Vic and Dany making a deal, he sails her west and she helps depose Euron. Dany would also need a navy to battle now that stannis is being back by the iron bank of braavos, and again Victarion can provide her with this.

but doesnt matter, cause i also feel Dany will die at the end. she'll sacrifice herself to save the rest of us in a very jesus'ish manner, essentially leaving the iron throne to Jon.

all hail king jon snow

[Sirken]

im gonna be really angry if they try to put a pretty lil bow on this story and give everyone happy endings. if Jon is gonna hookup with his aunt and rule the land together with her, im going to throw up and burn my books. not just the grrm books either. ill just be done with reading all together.

[Safon]

im gonna be really angry if they try to put a pretty lil bow on this story and give everyone happy endings. if Jon is gonna hookup with his aunt and rule the land together with her, im going to throw up and burn my books. not just the grrm books either. ill just be done with reading all together.

I have faith in Martin, this is ASOIAF after all :p

"I'm not saying all men must die, but they must"

[Safon]

Now whether or not he'll have completed the series before he's in the grave, that I don't have so much faith in

[Mandalore93]

Dany clearly going bonkers by the end of the series. Bringing dat fire and blood over for real. She can conquer, but she clearly can't rule.

[Tiggles]

ive read all the daario=euron theories (and heres a link to a list of them - http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/253zbx/). i just have a hard time accepting them. Daario isnt just missing, hes a hostage. we know where he is. for him to be euron would mean that the harpy group would have been ok with releasing arguably their most valuable hostage. i just dont see the greyjoys being super important to the show story. i mean what do Euron or Victarion actually do? Euron becomes king, and sends Vic to get Dany. Dany already has 93 mereen ships (as mentioned last season by darrio), they ships will be used to replace Victarions. the Show has seemingly cut the two horns from the show as well. so really, you can cut victarion and euron, and have asha win the kingsmoot.

in the books, i see Vic and Dany making a deal, he sails her west and she helps depose Euron. Dany would also need a navy to battle now that stannis is being back by the iron bank of braavos, and again Victarion can provide her with this.

but doesnt matter, cause i also feel Dany will die at the end. she'll sacrifice herself to save the rest of us in a very jesus'ish manner, essentially leaving the iron throne to Jon.


I won't accept an ending that doesn't have Danny turn insane and have to be stopped by someone else.

She is a terrible ruler and comes from insane stock.

[Sirken]

oh im with you. both her brothers were nuts and so was her dad. and yes, Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy, he was nuts.

Dany wont rule, and even if she did, shed be bad at it. but Jon, jon makes everyone happy.


soo i have a RL pal, he thinks Aegon is legit because why would Jon Connington (Rhaegars best friend) help a fake. Same why would Ashara Daybe be there (him and i have accepted that Septa Lemore is Ashara). and i mean, hes not crazy for thinking that. i just dunno.

[Safon]

Well during the Connington Chapters, Jon thinks to himself he "failed the father, he would not fail the son", so clearly he believes this Aegon to be legitimate, and isn't he the one that rescued Aegon from Robert's Rebellion and has raised him all these years?

Would that not be all the proof we need to be certain of Aegon's legitimacy? Unless Connington rescued a fake or something all those years ago?

[Littlegyno 13.0]

cant wait for king jon snow.

[Mandalore93]

Men want to see what they want to see @Jon Con. He can't have gotten Aegon personally because he was in exile during that time I'm pretty sure. So he was just brought a baby and told it was Rhaegar's cum spawn.

[Lasher]

soo i have a RL pal.

[Tiggles]

Well during the Connington Chapters, Jon thinks to himself he "failed the father, he would not fail the son", so clearly he believes this Aegon to be legitimate, and isn't he the one that rescued Aegon from Robert's Rebellion and has raised him all these years?

Would that not be all the proof we need to be certain of Aegon's legitimacy? Unless Connington rescued a fake or something all those years ago?

Chances are he was "given" a baby Aegon by Varys or Illirio and didn't see the rescue on his own.

My Theory is the "Pisswater Prince" (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Pisswater_prince) Theory is reversed.

I think Baby Aegon is dead and Young Griff is actually just some low born kid that Varys picked up for a jug of ale and he is being groomed to be a pretender with out his or Jon conningtons knowledge.

Basically take what the established story is about baby swapping and such and reverse it.

Again, I feel that if it was true and he was Aegon then I doubt he would be cut out of the show because it's an obvious real deal.

He's either Low Born or a Blackfyre either way I doubt he will accomplish much.

[Tiggles]

oh im with you. both her brothers were nuts and so was her dad. and yes, Rhaegar was obsessed with prophecy, he was nuts.

Dany wont rule, and even if she did, shed be bad at it. but Jon, jon makes everyone happy.


soo i have a RL pal, he thinks Aegon is legit because why would Jon Connington (Rhaegars best friend) help a fake. Same why would Ashara Daybe be there (him and i have accepted that Septa Lemore is Ashara). and i mean, hes not crazy for thinking that. i just dunno.


Don't think Lemore is Ashara, Tyrion keeps complimenting her on her tits but if she was alive she would be close to Eddard Starks age and I doubt tyrion would find her attractive.

Biggest thing is Ashara Dayne is described as having Violet eyes a very rare trait in the world of Westeros almost always an indicator of Targaryin Blood. I would think after being on a boat for months with these people and especially being let in on all this secret Targ stuff Tyrion would of noticed that Lemore has Violet eyes.

They are both protecting a fake because they don't know it's another Varys plot imo.

[Patriam1066]

LOL @ Preston...

I'm not sure if he's autistic or just pretending to be for the purpose of the ultimate troll, but he gave the baelish treatment to the people who took down his channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p3jwyLke6E

[Sirken]

Don't think Lemore is Ashara, Tyrion keeps complimenting her on her tits but if she was alive she would be close to Eddard Starks age and I doubt tyrion would find her attractive.

Biggest thing is Ashara Dayne is described as having Violet eyes a very rare trait in the world of Westeros almost always an indicator of Targaryin Blood. I would think after being on a boat for months with these people and especially being let in on all this secret Targ stuff Tyrion would of noticed that Lemore has Violet eyes.

They are both protecting a fake because they don't know it's another Varys plot imo.

Lemore is described as being the same age as ned, in her 40s
"Despite being over forty years old, Lemore is described as a handsome woman and has an outgoing friendly personality. She has brown hair and stretch marks on her belly from bearing a child." http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lemore

the eye thing might not be mentioned on purpose to the readers because itd be a sure give away.

[Aenor]

LOL @ Preston...

I'm not sure if he's autistic or just pretending to be for the purpose of the ultimate troll, but he gave the baelish treatment to the people who took down his channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2p3jwyLke6E

You don't want to fuck with Preston. He solved the JFK murder. Those nerds didn't stand a chance.

[Tiggles]

Lemore is described as being the same age as ned, in her 40s
"Despite being over forty years old, Lemore is described as a handsome woman and has an outgoing friendly personality. She has brown hair and stretch marks on her belly from bearing a child." http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Lemore

the eye thing might not be mentioned on purpose to the readers because itd be a sure give away.

If they don't mention her eyes to purposely mislead the audience then that is a huge strike on GRRM. They would basically have to say "Oh yeah she also has super rare regel violet eyes sorry I forgot"

[Mandalore93]

Didn't Aegon disguise his eye color? Lemore could be doing the same thing.

[Tiggles]

Didn't Aegon disguise his eye color? Lemore could be doing the same thing.

He died his hair purple so it would "Blend" the eye colors away.

Lemore didn't do that.


That brings up another point, They take so much effort is disguising Aegons eyes yet not hers? It would draw suspicion to them all.

[Fael]

If Lemore is not Ashara,where the fuck is she?

Maybe she benoit'ed herself after all. Perhaps her and Arthur had their own incests. It is possible that in this next book two of the more intriguing mysteries (Where is Ashara, What about Ricken?) will turn out to be mere shaggydogs.

Maybe the entire series is one massive shaggydog troll, characterized by countless miniature ones.

Maybe Tiggles is GRRM and GRRM is Tiggles.

Dolic

[Frieza_Prexus]

Many suspect Lemore is Illyrio's wife Serra. I lean towards that myself with the whole Aegon is a Blackfyre theory.

[Aenor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Mi17nLflY&list=FLDiFRMQWpcp8_KD4vwIVicw&index=1&feature=iv&src_vid=fZbMrbxS5Dw&annotation_id=annotation_560051889

Yes!

High sparrow!

Meryn Trant has a sense of humor!

Daznak's Pit in Osuna Spain!

Guess who leads the expedition to Hardhome.

[Sirken]

http://www.hbogo.com/#home/video&assetID=GOROSTGP44967?videoMode=embeddedVideo?show SpecialFeatures=false/

Yes! "Today they're having a big Hardhome meeting in Belfast."

That link won't work unless you log into hbogo.

High sparrow!

Meryn Trant has a sense of humor!

Daznak's Pit in Osuna Spain!

Guess who leads the expedition to Hardhome.

heres the link in case you dont have hbogo - http://youtu.be/p9Mi17nLflY

[Fael]

Many suspect Lemore is Illyrio's wife Serra. I lean towards that myself with the whole Aegon is a Blackfyre theory.

So Lemore is Aegon's mother? She doesn't seem very affectionate to the boy. And she seems very westerosi for someone who grew up the life of a Lysene whore, regardless of her bloodline.

I will have to go back and read those passages again with that angle in mind.

[Mandalore93]

I think it would be poor writing on GRRM's part for her to be non-Westerosi unless she was a performer on the level of Varys.

[Sirken]

here i made this for you pals, wtf is happening

http://i.imgur.com/rrNTmy3.jpg

[Safon]

I almost wish they never made the show to be honest, I imagine Martin has devoted a fair amount of time towards it that otherwise would have gone into the books or novellas, and it's clearly being altered to appeal to the "can't be bothered to read books" crowd

[Safon]

I remember him in an interview talking about having disagreements with the producers over certain characters being "not likeable enough" and having to change them for the show

[Mandalore93]

The scene is super easy to explain. Without Belwas there can be no locusts. On top of that, a poisoning wouldn't be obvious enough for the TV only crowd. Plus this solves the problem of getting a fuck ton of bodies in the arena for the dragon to fuck up.

Detective Mandalore, here to fuck bitches and solve your GOT scene mysteries. And I don't see your sister around.

[Tiggles]

whoa, we dont actually know whom poisoned the locusts, or what the actual motive was. just because belwas ate them in the book, that could have easily been swapped with poor writing (ie: daario tasting one of them and declaring it poison). as far as obvious enough for the tv crowd, maybe im spoiled as a reader, but do the tv only people really miss that much if its not spelled out to them?

*spits out Locust* This Locust is Poisoned!
*Silence* Poisoned....with Poison!
*Silence* Poison is BAD
*Gasps*

[BurgyK]

Belwas was one of my favorite characters :/ i am disappoint

[BurgyK]

I don't even mind the greyjoy arc missing cause I thought it was more about moqorro (just my theory) and quentyn martell was kinda pointless. But damn belwas was a good character and even added some comedy. They really couldn't find some sumo wrestler to take the spot? I cringed when the Meereen duel happened and there was no liver and onions for the big guy.

[Sirken]

if you can cut the horns and the euron/victarion stories, thats kinda a huge book spoiler and/or theory killer

[Patriam1066]

if you can cut the horns and the euron/victarion stories, thats kinda a huge book spoiler and/or theory killer

Honestly, I think the horns will still be important in the books. If they're not at all, GRRM is a dick. It's more about there simply being too much lore / backstory to the novels to put everything in the show. Also, I think GoT is, in the interest of ratings, going to continue to make this a Jon snow/Lannister/Targaryen saga.... If they followed the actual book narrative, sad to say, they'd lose all of their fans, because a TV audience is a bit more fickle than the type of person that dutifully reads 5-6k pages of books.

TLDR: I don't think these change ups necessarily indicate book spoilers, although they could.

[citizen1080]

GRRM is a dick.

[Sirken]

apparently they are gonna kill off some characters on the show that arent dead in the book

excerpt:
Martin has hinted that even those who read his A Song of Ice and Fire novel series will be surprised by the TV storyline, with not one, not two, but four characters set to meet their makers.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-5-george-rr-martin-warns-fans-to-be-on-their-toes-for-shock-deaths-10048883.html

[Patriam1066]

apparently they are gonna kill off some characters on the show that arent dead in the book

excerpt:


http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-5-george-rr-martin-warns-fans-to-be-on-their-toes-for-shock-deaths-10048883.html

Yeah I saw that. part of the reason I don't think the show moving forward is going to spoil much. I think they're going their own way with the source material. More of an educated guess and a hope, but we'll see.

[katrik]

I have just started reading the books and I have already noticed some very noticeable plot changes in the TV series. Not a bad thing, though.. TV series is sooo good.

[Tiggles]

I think this season the TV show is going to take a drastic turn from the books.

I also think the books and the shows are going to have different endings.

[beyondinfin]

I think this season the TV show is going to take a drastic turn from the books.

I also think the books and the shows are going to have different endings.

This is what Im hoping for! Do you really believe if the TV ending is hated by people and fans then GRRM won't make changes for his book ending? One has to affect the other. Please keep them separate and different.

[SHOWITME]

i hope the tv show spoils the plot for the books so all those dickheads who acted superior for reading the books before the tv show get super mad.

[Patriam1066]

I have just started reading the books and I have already noticed some very noticeable plot changes in the TV series. Not a bad thing, though.. TV series is sooo good.

The first season is actually very close to the first book. They start changing more dramatically as time goes on. But I agree with you; although I think the books are definitely better, I'm still a fan of both. I think GoT is the most entertaining thing on TV right now. Specifically, Dinklage plays a good Tyrion (despite his accent being a very shitty rendition of what is supposed to be British). Also, the people playing Baelish, Davos, and especially the Hound do an amazing job. The dude playing the hound is a superb actor, and I appreciate the show for things like that which you obviously don't encounter when reading.

On the other hand, the dude playing Jon Snow is a pussy, so there's that

[Tiggles]

The first season is actually very close to the first book. They start changing more dramatically as time goes on. But I agree with you; although I think the books are definitely better, I'm still a fan of both. I think GoT is the most entertaining thing on TV right now. Specifically, Dinklage plays a good Tyrion (despite his accent being a very shitty rendition of what is supposed to be British). Also, the people playing Baelish, Davos, and especially the Hound do an amazing job. The dude playing the hound is a superb actor, and I appreciate the show for things like that which you obviously don't encounter when reading.

On the other hand, the dude playing Jon Snow is a pussy, so there's that

Rory Mccann is my favorite.

http://i.imgur.com/RFWIuXA.jpg

http://38.media.tumblr.com/e4ae1583928ed1a2e11161c033279339/tumblr_mqafznCP8N1s64rhyo3_500.gif

[Mandalore93]

I LOVE Stephen Dillane as Stannis and Aidan Gillen as Littlefinger

[Sirken]

Preston Jacobs youtube channel was terminated by youtube because nerds were making false claims against his channel :(

and it looks like it was the butt hurt children over at ASOIAFuniversity

[Mandalore93]

Didn't his channel get reinstated already?

[Sirken]

i just check and i guess it was. im happy again :D

[Aenor]

We need the Coach to dig up some goods on the History of Westeros douchebags.

[Sirken]

We need the Coach to dig up some goods on the History of Westeros douchebags.

lol make that a thing. i hate those nerds and it would get him off p99. thats a win win

[Sirken]

preston jacobs new series, "What you are missing" - http://youtu.be/qWU5zs9BsEI

[Millburn]

I like this new series! So I assume he's going to go through each episode from every season. I'm really looking forward to this.

[Mandalore93]

HOLY SHIT. DID ANYONE SEE FORESTER THORNE'S NEW THEORY ON /R/ASOIAF

[Sirken]

link?


and 43 days left til show :D

[Mandalore93]

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2xhbd9/spoilers_all_i_know_whats_in_lyannas_crypt_and/

[Sirken]

nice ty <3

[Millburn]

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/2xhbd9/spoilers_all_i_know_whats_in_lyannas_crypt_and/

My issue with this, as was pointed out in the reddit comments is that the crypt already has other women in it right? They just don't get statues. Assuming that's accurate it kind of throws everything on its head. I'll tell you what though, I absolutely love all the implications this theory has. It ticks all my conspiracy boxes haha.

[Patriam1066]

"Meanwhile, Stannis is outside the walls and Daenerys has had visions of a blue eyed king with a red sword who casts no shadow. Roose may want the Queen for himself, but who says he'll succeed?"

That's the most compelling part imo. I could definitely see that meaning Stannis will become the night's King. Also, good read mandalore. I really couldn't refute any of it concretely .... Do we know (unequivocally) if there were other women buried in the crypts? I mean, it makes sense that something is drawing the Others south.

[Mandalore93]

There are a few passages mentioning other women in the crypts...but not what part. Lyanna is buried with the other lords and kings. I'm pretty sure it's possible that Ned's brother died after Rickard so he was briefly lord of winterfell. The only main character we get a view from on that is Jaime if I remember correctly.

But the theory was just so balls to the wall good I don't give a fuck about the details.

[BurgyK]

I still think jon snows rez will burn off his starkness changing him into a more targaryen look.
Edit:that is not to say that stannis wont be defender of the wall. I cant speculate on that

[Patriam1066]

I still think jon snows rez will burn off his starkness changing him into a more targaryen look.
Edit:that is not to say that stannis wont be defender of the wall. I cant speculate on that

I hope this is true just so they recast the actor on GoT

[Millburn]

I hope this is true just so they recast the actor on GoT

You get out of here with that Kit Harrington hate speech jibber-jabber!

[Sirken]

My issue with this, as was pointed out in the reddit comments is that the crypt already has other women in it right? They just don't get statues. Assuming that's accurate it kind of throws everything on its head. I'll tell you what though, I absolutely love all the implications this theory has. It ticks all my conspiracy boxes haha.
i have found evidence of nonkings and nonlords buried there. i still havent found a female. but everyone entombed there has a statue carved in their likeness. i forget the name now, but theres a graveyard for those that arent put into the crypts. also, we learn in book 5 that the lowest level of the crypt is partially collapsed. but Artos Stark (Artos the Implacable) was laid to rest within the crypts, and was never a lord of winterfell or a king of the north.

[Sirken]

"Meanwhile, Stannis is outside the walls and Daenerys has had visions of a blue eyed king with a red sword who casts no shadow. Roose may want the Queen for himself, but who says he'll succeed?"

That's the most compelling part imo. I could definitely see that meaning Stannis will become the night's King. Also, good read mandalore. I really couldn't refute any of it concretely .... Do we know (unequivocally) if there were other women buried in the crypts? I mean, it makes sense that something is drawing the Others south.

Stannis as the Night King? i dunno about that. but Stannis as the 1000th commander of the nights watch? i like that a lot.

also, a blue eyed king with no shadow and a red sword is obviously stannis. he already has blue eyes, melisandre used that dark shadow magic that we know stole a piece of stannis, and he had a flaming sword (tho it was not lightbringer, as it didnt emit heat, as per Aemon Targaryen). that doesnt make him the nights king. i see that more as a red herring for Azor Azai.

[Sirken]

and for everyone else that im too lazy to quote :P


firstly, Brandon and Lyanna arent the only non kings/lords within the crypt. Artos Stark (Artos the Implacable) was also laid to rest within the crypts, and was never a lord of winterfell or a king of the north.

as far as the swords, i dont believe they have any "magical" purpose. in the first book it clearly states that Ned notices that the oldest longswords have rusted away to nothing. which means they've been gone a long while, as iron doesnt rust away to dust over night.

GRRM doesnt have the balls to kill jon snow at this point. and if he did kill jon, itd be strictly to shock readers that figure things out in the 5+ years it takes him to write a damn book.

as far as Jon changing after rezz, one thing worth mentioning is that in book 4 Jon Snow dreams he is walking past the stone kings, who tell him there is no place for him in the crypt. so if there are any spirits in there, they already know who Jon Snow really is.

they will never recast Kit Harrington

[Patriam1066]

Kit Harrington sucks, why do yall like him? He reminds me of Nicholas cage in Con Air

Also, the biggest reason that I like the theory, is that this replaces the passivity of prophecy with an actual cause for the Others to be moving south. I have no idea if he's identified the correct rallying cry for them to migrate, but I NEVER thought martin was simply going to allude to many prophecies and fulfill them. It seems likely that the prophecies weren't inevitibilities but instead the results of retards like Rhaegar and Ned.

Just my $.02 but I really like where he's going with this. And sorry I don't know the name of the guy I'm referring to... Forester I think?

The hound 2016

[citizen1080]

Kit Harrington sucks, why do yall like him? He reminds me of Nicholas cage in Con Air

Also, the biggest reason that I like the theory, is that this replaces the passivity of prophecy with an actual cause for the Others to be moving south. I have no idea if he's identified the correct rallying cry for them to migrate, but I NEVER thought martin was simply going to allude to many prophecies and fulfill them. It seems likely that the prophecies weren't inevitibilities but instead the results of retards like Rhaegar and Ned.

Just my $.02 but I really like where he's going with this. And sorry I don't know the name of the guy I'm referring to... Forester I think?

The hound 2016

Kit remind anyone else of Zoolander? Guy has like 2 faces he uses Sad kit and happy kit.

[Patriam1066]

LOL I hadn't thought of that but now that you mention it, he does definitely utilize blue steel 90% of the time

[Aenor]

they will never recast Kit Harrington

Man crush detected :D

Also, awe:

https://vine.co/v/hazrdLdgZpm/embed/simple

[Sirken]

Kit Harrington sucks, why do yall like him? He reminds me of Nicholas cage in Con Air

Also, the biggest reason that I like the theory, is that this replaces the passivity of prophecy with an actual cause for the Others to be moving south. I have no idea if he's identified the correct rallying cry for them to migrate, but I NEVER thought martin was simply going to allude to many prophecies and fulfill them. It seems likely that the prophecies weren't inevitibilities but instead the results of retards like Rhaegar and Ned.

Just my $.02 but I really like where he's going with this. And sorry I don't know the name of the guy I'm referring to... Forester I think?

The hound 2016
what if theres something worse than the others north of them? they were moving south long before Robert showed up in Winterfell to recruit Ned




as far as Kit, im not a fan, sorry :(

im just stating facts. they arent going to replace him unless he gets arrested for murdering a child prostitute, or, demands too much cash

[Aenor]

im just stating facts. they arent going to replace him unless he gets arrested for murdering a child prostitute, or, demands too much cash

They already extended the contracts for all the main characters for a final season, so yeah.

[Sirken]

They already extended the contracts for all the main characters for a final season, so yeah.

they dont know how many seasons it will be. at first it was "for sure" 7. now they have said they wont rule out 8. things change and money talks. that said, this is the first time HBO gave more than a year in advance, so maybe they finally have faith that it won't be a flop :p

[Aenor]

They extend it much more and they'll have to recast or roll with mid-20s Arya.

[Patriam1066]

what if theres something worse than the others north of them? they were moving south long before Robert showed up in Winterfell to recruit Ned




as far as Kit, im not a fan, sorry :(

im just stating facts. they arent going to replace him unless he gets arrested for murdering a child prostitute, or, demands too much cash

Ok, so the Night's Queen theory. If there is something worse farther north, I can't wait to see what that is. I hope it's the wrath of the old gods. But yeah, I obviously don't know if the forester guy's postulate will turn out to be correct. I like it for the same reason I like PJ's "Dornish Master Plan": it's both well thought out and plausible.

And I know they're keeping Kit, it's just Snow was my favorite character in the books. He shouldn't have been played by a pretty boy with no talent. Sean Bean was such a good Ned stark... Gravitas, bearing, and most importantly, he doesn't look like a pussy. Kit just looks like a wimp, and on top of that he can't act

They extend it much more and they'll have to recast or roll with mid-20s Arya.

Holy shit I can't believe how old she is... I would've guessed that she's 12-13.....

[Sirken]

They extend it much more and they'll have to recast or roll with mid-20s Arya.

im honestly worried at this point, they wouldnt care. they arent doing this to tell the story written by GRRM anymore. they made that abundantly clear last season, and even more so with what ive seen and read about upcoming season 5. lots of fan service this season incoming.

[Millburn]

im honestly worried at this point, they wouldnt care. they arent doing this to tell the story written by GRRM anymore. they made that abundantly clear last season, and even more so with what ive seen and read about upcoming season 5. lots of fan service this season incoming.

I'm just going to bury my head in the sand and appreciate it for what it is. If this goes the way of the Hobbit I'm gonna be sad.

[Sirken]

at least it wont spoil the books when the show passes the source material

[katrik]

When's season 5 air..?

[Sirken]

April 12

[katrik]

April 12

Ty sir

[Sirken]

ofcourse! helping people is kinda what i do ;)

[Littlegyno 13.0]

ill watch the shows but i'll read the books later on.

i have a feeling grrm will either change them significant or just include much more details than the show did.

maybe he'll die and brandon sanderson can come in and finish writing the books just he did for robert r jordon?

[Millburn]

ill watch the shows but i'll read the books later on.

i have a feeling grrm will either change them significant or just include much more details than the show did.

maybe he'll die and brandon sanderson can come in and finish writing the books just he did for robert r jordon?

I would be okay with that honestly, Sanderson did a great job with the series. (I know someone on these boards thinks otherwise and heatedly at that, we'll see if he bites) I really do think Sanderson did a good job though.

[Sirken]

ill watch the shows but i'll read the books later on.

i have a feeling grrm will either change them significant or just include much more details than the show did.

maybe he'll die and brandon sanderson can come in and finish writing the books just he did for robert r jordon?

at this rate grrm wont need to change anything, hbo is doing that just fine. and yea, the show cuts a lot of shit (dreams, characters, entire sub plots, etc). its surely worth the read.

and dont worry, if he dies ill finish them for you guys.

[Patriam1066]

at this rate grrm wont need to change anything, hbo is doing that just fine. and yea, the show cuts a lot of shit (dreams, characters, entire sub plots, etc). its surely worth the read.

and dont worry, if he dies ill finish them for you guys.

Rofl, who takes the iron throne in A Sirken of Ice and Fire?

[Millburn]

In the last book, Bao the Wylde (literally the dumbest fucking name I have ever seen in a fantasy book) has a full circle of what? 64 channelers? The obvious expectation is that the good guys are going to meet this full circle with a full circle of their own. Instead, we get a procession of non-channelers challenging him to single combat. I honestly believe he ran out of material and slapped the final book together to get it over with.


Hahahaha

That's actually a really fair point I do admit.

[Sirken]

Rofl, who takes the iron throne in A Sirken of Ice and Fire?

spoilers bro. i cant just tell you the ending. i gotta keep it grrm classic, and make you wait 5 years, so that i do not rob you of the full readers' experience.

but for real, after i read book 6, im gonna start writing book 7, just in case. that way when he dies, ill have my book 7 ready to hit print. and by print, of course i mean posted here in this thread :P

[Millburn]

http://imgur.com/a/4sN7I#0

So there's definitely a naked and bald Cersei in Season 5, I mean they don't come out and say she's bald but the article says they can't explain how she looks because it would be a spoiler, I can only take it to mean that. What do you guys think?

[Mandalore93]

Man, I thought I posted on this thread about Sanderson but apparently must have been too drunk to remember to hit the submit button. Sanderson does solid work but his characters are terrible and flat imo. Great at world building though.

[Aenor]

Alfie Allen drawing his missing member as an autograph is the goat.

[Sirken]

http://imgur.com/a/4sN7I#0

So there's definitely a naked and bald Cersei in Season 5, I mean they don't come out and say she's bald but the article says they can't explain how she looks because it would be a spoiler, I can only take it to mean that. What do you guys think?

no they already spoiled it. Lena Headey is pregnant irl, and they brought in a body double for the walk of shame. expect to see Cersei (her nude stand in) from behind, and dont get your hopes up for seeing a naked Lena. well played universe, well played.

[Sirken]

finally, we sorta have proof that coldhands is not benjen - https://youtu.be/93d9Hx0H2xM

[Aenor]

Nice. One less thing to read about.

[Sirken]

i never really bought into the Benjen=CH after reading book 5. Leaf kinda kills that by implying CH has been around longer than benjen has been missing

[beyondinfin]

SHOW SPOILERS....Check out these Season 5 premiere photos! I spotted at least 2 faces from the cast that are surprising to see!

http://www.imdb.com/gallery/rg2885065472?ref_=rgmd_md_sm

[Sirken]

who? maybe i missed it, but i didnt see any shockers there

[Sirken]

found a recent sitdown with david & dan along with jon snow and samwell tarly actors. i enjoyed

https://youtu.be/TfvVluNxujc

[Tiggles]

They just confirmed that the show will overcome the books starting this season.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-showrunners-confirm-tv-show-will-overtake-the-books-making-bookreaders-lives-a-spoiler-nightmare-10127324.html?cmpid=facebook-post

[Sirken]

honestly i expect more to be change than spoiled. jaime and bronn in dorne messes a lot of plots up. bran wont be in this season, so that wont pass the books. the last trailor appeared to show sansa entering winterfell and again in the crypts. that would be interesting. but, i dont think we will get past book 5, id be shocked honestly. think of how far behind we are in jons story for example. if the show really thinks it can do it in 7 seasons, im not worried about it spoiling the book tbh. it would be so much changed to wrap in 7 seasons

[Millburn]

"And so we'll eventually, basically, meet up at pretty much the same place where George is going; there might be a few deviations along the route, but we're heading towards the same destination.

"I kind of wish that there were some things we didn't have to spoil, but we're kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. The show must go on… and that's what we're going to do."

That was a very interesting set of sentences there...

[Patriam1066]

I agree with Sirken... So much is changed that they won't spoil the books. The above quote is troubling though. Gonna have a tough choice when the last season rolls around and we're still ten years out frkm book 7

[Sirken]

I agree with Sirken... So much is changed that they won't spoil the books. The above quote is troubling though. Gonna have a tough choice when the last season rolls around and we're still ten years out frkm book 7

well, obviously some big things are going to be spoiled. ie: who wins the game of thrones, cant be avoided. but how they get there will be interesting. if the show truly plans to cut the greyjoys, the aegon/connington stuff, both horns, and apparently everything having to do with the green grace.

im hoping Jaqan H'gar isnt playing the same character, because that effects the sam/pate/marwyn shit in book 4. if the kindly man just uses jaqan's face to make arya more comfy, id accept that. Arya gonna be busy this season, wonder if she'll drink that milk ;)

[Sirken]

preston touches on darrio = euron

https://youtu.be/fO-RiqaK8n0

[Patriam1066]

I don't understand the daario = Euron theory. I'm not an expert on the books, but the geography would make this seem impossible IMO. Also, Preston thinks Euron kills all three captains and assumes Daario's identity.....
So the stormcrows just willingly follow an impostor?

I don't get the theory in general, and in particular preston's version makes zero sense. At the same time, daario always seemed like someone else in disguise.

[VANVEM]

ok I can't possibly read all the pages here right now so I will start small

RHAEGAR TARGARYEN was the true heir of the Targgaryen's, that is not been questioned that I know of.

and since that is true and the prevalent theory is the Jon Snow is his son that makes JS the true heir, even over Daenerys. Because the line follows Rhaegar's line as long as it exists. BUT if Aegon is who they say he is, He becomes the true heir as he would be Jon Snow's older brother.

Please feel free to say if that logic isnt correct, but if it is then........

That means That Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are not the true heirs of Winterfell, in the books Rob Stark's wife is alive, and GRRM has stated she will be reappearing, and Rob's child will be the true heir of Winterfell, Right?

Yep I know the child could die and this issue can be non-existant, but for the time being that should change the outlook of things, and Sansa marrying anyone means nothing.

[Sirken]

I don't understand the daario = Euron theory. I'm not an expert on the books, but the geography would make this seem impossible IMO. Also, Preston thinks Euron kills all three captains and assumes Daario's identity.....
So the stormcrows just willingly follow an impostor?

I don't get the theory in general, and in particular preston's version makes zero sense. At the same time, daario always seemed like someone else in disguise.

ignore preston on the Euron = Daario topic. if you want to dig into that, hit up the reddit or asoiaf forums. the geography actually works really well and supports the theory. my BIG giant problem with it is that Daario is a hostage in book 5. hes not missing or lost, we know exactly where he is, which means for him to be Euron, the people holding Danys hostages would have to be in on it, or would have to have lost Daario.

with Daario not in Book 4, and with Euron not in Book 5, and with the note by GRRM saying the chapters may not playout chronologically in the way of one cvhapter immidiately following the next previous chapter (some chapters start before the previous one has ended, some chapters start days after the previous chapter), its surely possible, i just find it highly unlikely.

I don't understand the daario = Euron theory. I'm not an expert on the books, but the geography would make this seem impossible IMO. Also, Preston thinks Euron kills all three captains and assumes Daario's identity.....
So the stormcrows just willingly follow an impostor?
you made me giggle here. they are implying that Euron was glamoured to look like Daario after killing the leaders of the stormcrows. do not forget Euron has Pyat and the wizard nerds. we know for a fact glamours exist because Rattleshirt is glamoured in book 5 to look like Mance Rayder. and the glamour works so well that all the wildlings believe that Mance is indeed burned by Melisandre.