Global item rarity needs to be looked at

[skorge]

True, I haven't played much lately but this is one of my main concerns with P99. A lot of you will simply respond "items need to be as rare as they were back in '99/'00" the problem is that P99 is on a much extended timeline than Live was.

When Velious hit the general population migrated over to Velious content on Live (back in 2000/2001), leaving older zones less farmed, which kept certain items being over farmed. Even here, on P99, once Kunark hit the general population left Guk and went to Seb. This resulted in less FBSS entering the system.

Now, the main problem with P99 is that Kunark has been out way longer than it should be without a next expansion (Velious). Basically what is happening is there are WAY too many items entering the system. Items such as fungi tunics, heiro cloaks, rbgs, etc.

About 6 months ago or so (maybe a bit longer) a fungi tunic was going for 220k. Now you can buy one for 45k. One of the reasons why the fungi tunics were going for so much, was because the devs had the King coded wrong and as a result less tunics were entering the system. This should be a option for the devs...to create a system where less of a certain item is entered into the system. A simple comparison: in a couple of months a fungi tunic might only be worth 25k, whereas if they had kept it the way it was before they fixed it, fungi tunics would probably be worth about 125k or so...which is closer to what the value of them were on Live.

The fungi tunic is only one example. I believe the devs should go in and adjust drop rates of certain mobs/items. Bigger name items such as Fungi Tunic, T-Staff, Heiro Cloak, RBG...this will keep the economy closer to what it was like on Live.

Just a thought, and no I'm not saying this to capitalize later on in the future on these items...I'm saying this because of how unrealistic the economy of P99 will be in the next several months UNLESS Velious comes out soon! Anyone agree with me?

[falkun]

Why? Are people not allowed to have items on this server because "they were more rare on live?" Where does it end? Where do you draw the line in dragging out this experience?

If you want that, increase experience requirements by 4x. There shouldn't be this many L60s in Kunark. I remember a quote, "Getting max level in classic was HUGE, the average player wasn't max level until Luclin."

If you want less drops, lets have 7-day raid targets respawn once a month, with a week-long variance!

Dungeon mobs should respawn once every 2 hours, not once every 28minutes.

Bard songs should take 12 seconds to cast. I'd hate to be the one spending a minute to summon a mage pet. And swing timers, those should be multiplied by 4 as well!

A fungi tunic is no less valuable at 45k than it was at 220k, it still makes leveling a melee significantly easier.

This server is meant to be here a long time, while also reaching a point and stagnating. What's inherently wrong with that? Why can't everyone get the items they always wanted to and eventually get bored and move to another game/emu?

[falkun]

Honestly, hyperbole aside, the number of high levels on this server makes a much larger impact on the enjoyment of the game than 45k fungis. If there weren't this many high levels, the raid scene would trickle down better. If there weren't this many high levels, there'd be more people worried about grinding and less worried about farming platz/gearz. If there weren't this many high levels, there wouldn't be the need to twink as much because people would still be enjoying their initial leveling experience.

[Nirgon]

Frankly my opinion is kind of similar, however...

I think after Velious comes and we're at the overfarmed point they should do their own progression server with people voting if its time to move to the next xpac or not. The rolling progression server after every little thing is perfect would be great. Every 2.5 years or so, do a reset?

[Xanthias]

It isn't a problem of coding it is the fact that Kunark has been around by itself for too long.
Not a complaint, statement of fact.
When people have nothing to do but farm; the amount of "rares" is going to increase no matter what and the price will go down.

Supply and demand: Econ 101.

[mitic]

nilbog will never go further than velious

[mitic]

I foresee a fresh server within the next 2 years

[falkun]

When people have nothing to do but farm; the amount of "rares" is going to increase no matter what and the price will go down.

Skorge, you are not addressing the underlying issue, which is the experience rate with respect to content release rate. I don't know about you though, I'm leveling plenty slowly as is.

[Nirgon]

I foresee talks of a fresh server within the next 2 years after Velious

[SwordNboard]

Sounds like someone wishes they could get 225k back for their fungi after hiatus. :-p

[falkun]

Hence why I generally camp the items I need, or wait for supply to outpace demand on the items I've purchased.

[Raavak]

The real problem is how easy it is to level. It should be 10x as hard and it should take the average daily player-type-person at least a year to go from 50 to 60. If there weren't so many 60's floating around there wouldn't be as much farming.

[nilzark]

Something will have to be done as all the players will eventually leave out of boredom. Progression servers are a good option, but what about adding a little content with "events" - rare items could be dropped then as well - and they will stay rare because devs will control the drop rate through events. Something like that can still be considered classic because back in the day EQ Live did occasional events.

[Nirgon]

Well the real events would be if they did do a relaunch (don't delete the old aka current server obvi..) to get all the live GM events scripted and ready.

Werewolf invasion, shield of hatred in nektulos, shroud of earthen shadow for hole etc. I'll dig all that up after the other stuff gets banged out.

[Ele]

Another issue at play here is the server population. On live, the some of the servers peaked anywhere between 3000-4000 players during primetime at the high points before server splits started occurring. Having that many people spread out across Vanilla/Kunark and into Velious spread out the loot much more than what occurs here with a 300-500 peak population. Sebilis is overcamped with 5 groups on this server, on my live server Sebilis would have 80-100 during prime time with each group getting 6-12 mobs to camp. XP was slower as a result and loot was much more spread out and not concentrating in the hands of a few hundred people.

As was already stated above, the larger population and thus fewer mobs per a person resulted in slow xp and most people not attaining 60 until well into Velious, if not Luclin, the old AA or XP discussion was hotly debated.

Yet another issue is people know where to go and what to camp this time around. Information about strategies and camps was slow to release during the classic era, and much of it was rumor and innuendo with people being enthralled with this new fantasy world and getting caught up in the mythos instead of the game mechanics. Most of that is gone in this day and age where people can just jump on the wiki or other walkthrough websites and know exactly where to go, what to do, and what to kill for their loot. Circlet of Shadow is a great example of an item not greatly known during Kunark, and was not farmed into oblivion on live and thus fetched hundreds of thousands of plat for the pre-nerf version after they stopped dropping. Here, people knew from day 0, where it dropped, how to get, and have farmed them non-stop and gotten it to the point that anyone can get one for 700-1kp, or just wait in Droga for one to rot.

[azeth]

Another issue at play here is the server population. On live, the some of the servers peaked anywhere between 3000-4000 players during primetime at the high points before server splits started occurring.

Yikes that is far from what I remember. I'd say tops 2500 ppl before splits. That's actually kind of wild to think about regardless of the 1500 person difference. When I played, P99 averaged I think 700 people and it felt like a pretty busy server.

[Ele]

Yikes that is far from what I remember. I'd say tops 2500 ppl before splits. That's actually kind of wild to think about regardless of the 1500 person difference. When I played, P99 averaged I think 700 people and it felt like a pretty busy server.

The few servers that did peak that high didn't stay that way for an extended length of time. I agree that most peaked at 2000-2500 during prime time Kunark/Velious era. A sudden influx of people to raise the population to 2000 here would be insane considering the overall power level of individual players on this server with the trickle down effects of cheap gear from CoM/Seb/KC flooding the low level markets.

Throwing most people playing on this server back into the 1999/2000 fray in a normal xp group would likely cause them to gouge their eyes out at how slow the xp was due to the amount of people inhabiting each dungeon. Just in LGuk dead side on my live server for example had the following individual camps for a group of 4-6 during prime time: Lord and/or AM (held as one or split into two camps), frenzy, sent, GIBS, spider/bat, safe hall, ritualist, ass/sup, exe, cav, sav. You could walk through the zone without seeing a single mob spawned. Here, if one group isn't doing the entire dead house (ass/sup, cav, sav, exe) then the xp sucks, but on live the population just didn't support one group to monopolizing the area during that era.

[Hailto]

The real problem is how easy it is to level. It should be 10x as hard and it should take the average daily player-type-person at least a year to go from 50 to 60. If there weren't so many 60's floating around there wouldn't be as much farming.

I think its funny that only people who are currently level 60 ever say things like this.

[falkun]

I think its funny that only people who are currently level 60 ever say things like this.

Agreed, but when it takes 1/8th (or less) of an expansion to reach max level, we are approaching WoW leveling rates. Releasing content faster than it can be absorbed is the basis for all MMOs, including Everquest.

The reason the economy is crashing is that supply has outpaced demand. I personally don't care much about the economy, but I can see how those who spent 200k+ on a fungi are pissed. But people with that kind of expendable income should have been able to farm their own fungi anyways. But that's not the fault of drop rates, thats the fault of the maximum leveling rate and the lack of content at the top.

Artificially lowering drop rates is a bandaid for the economy, and only works to drive demand up for the "have nots". I still don't understand why, in 13 year old game where everything is understood, that people wish to create "haves" and "have nots". We are playing this game to experience the stuff we missed from Live, to relive the pinnacle of MMORPG-dom. Why do there have to be "haves" and "have nots"? Its virtual currency, the system would not crumble under communist views here.

[azeth]

I still don't understand why, in 13 year old game where everything is understood, that people wish to create "haves" and "have nots"..

Well you can't deny the loot pinata basis of most MMOs, EQ specifically. At some point we're debating human nature here.

I played only through the beta, but The Secret World is a decent example of an MMO that has Story/Puzzle Solving at its core versus "loot".

edit: i prefer loot ;)

[ArumTP]

Anything worth "alot" of money will become overfarmed. Nothing is wrong with the drops, sorry you don't know how to win EC.

[Raavak]

The real problem is how easy it is to level. It should be 10x as hard and it should take the average daily player-type-person at least a year to go from 50 to 60. If there weren't so many 60's floating around there wouldn't be as much farming.I think its funny that only people who are currently level 60 ever say things like this.
Sorry for my sarcasm :P
I'm all for laissez-faire, economically and experience rate-aly.

[Haul]

I sold 3 fungi tunics at 250k per had people beg me to sell to them lol. Fucking sickens me how cheap they are now its lame as can be-

[BigSlip]

haul ruined the economy

[skorge]

Anything worth "alot" of money will become overfarmed. Nothing is wrong with the drops, sorry you don't know how to win EC.

Has nothing to do with me not knowing how to win at EC. It's all about trying to figure out a way to make P99 last longer...as some as said though, it may be better to just reset P99 in 1-2 years?

The thing that alot of people aren't really thinking about is having more people with access to uber loot = faster leveling. On EQ Live, i NEVER had a fungi tunic...in fact I would friggin drool over owning one. On here, I can buy a dozen of them if i wanted...

There is no long-term goal here...a lot of people like to twink secondary characters, so they make it a long-term goal to twink their new toon up. On EQ Lives it took me months to gear my new toon up.

Having more high-end loot in the system = more people selling them to purchase a powerlevel (people that normally wouldnt do this but since everyone has one these people can do this now)...simple as that (easiest way I can explain it).

Anyways it was just a thought (and a better option than increasing the exp rate).

[SwordNboard]

QFT. It is what it is because of lower population. P99 will last with or without your god sent words of loldom.

[Picked]

Never really seen the reason to concern myself with the market in MMOs. If I paid 60k for a fungi tunic 4 months ago and someone buys one today for 30k is that going to make me quit the game? No.

Should someone quit playing an MMO they enjoy because of the price of an item? Only if their concern is to earn the most pp on the server.

[cyryllis]

i traded a hierophants cloak for a fungi tunic during the early days of velious, when both were going for between 18 and 25k...so im not sure what caused your servers prices to be retarded. dumb idea is dumb

[ArumTP]

Has nothing to do with me not knowing how to win at EC. It's all about trying to figure out a way to make P99 last longer...as some as said though, it may be better to just reset P99 in 1-2 years?


New content makes P99 last longer, not artificially adjusting drop rates on items that you are currently upside down on.

[Dantes]

Shut your mouth! Casual players like myself reap the benefits when all the people playing 10 hours a day scramble to get loot and flood the market. Good things come to those who wait. I don't feel sorry for anybody who spent 220k on a Fungi Tunic because they wanted instant gratification. They got what they paid for, they could have waited, but they wanted it immediately. I can stand back and let them spend their millions of plat and wait patiently for prices to go down.

[Itap]

What ive learned in this thread;

Ele and falkun are smart people

[Rasah]

Remember when the Jade Chokidai Prod was going for 24k? Prices are gonna go down until the plat per hour normalizes.

[CrystalBlue]

Everything seems far more common here then i've seen on live or EQmac.

I'd say its a combination of item drop rate and rare mob spawn both being set too high, and "features" like being able to cherry pick name and named place holders with invisi-pulling through the whole zone to the zone line and/or through multiple walls and floors (most of the time the mob/named warps right up through the floor to the waiting party).

[Tecmos Deception]

Or we could assume it is the simple, obvious answer, rather than the complicated and unprovable one.

The server has a tiny population compared to live but does not have a proportionally lower amount of hours spent camping the big cash camps. Couple that with an extra long time in Kunark and big surprise, we have a high concentration of high-end items on the server.

[CrystalBlue]

Or they are humans trying their best on a emu server and if we let them know what items/rare mobs are popping far too common, they can and will fix it?

Nilbog: ferocious hammerhead will be seen less often. So will the Driftwood Treasure Chest.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=455880&highlight=driftwood+chest+drop+rate#post455880

[Tecmos Deception]

Oh cool. You have a bunch of proof that spawn rates and drop rates of a dozen or so different high-end mobs are off compared to live? Niiiiceee.

[Xanthias]

Remember when the Jade Chokidai Prod was going for 24k? Prices are gonna go down until the plat per hour normalizes.

Rasah you are using logic and making sense, that has no place on these boards....

[Ele]

Or we could assume it is the simple, obvious answer, rather than the complicated and unprovable one.

The server has a tiny population compared to live but does not have a proportionally lower amount of hours spent camping the big cash camps. Couple that with an extra long time in Kunark and big surprise, we have a high concentration of high-end items on the server.

Or they are humans trying their best on a emu server and if we let them know what items/rare mobs are popping far too common, they can and will fix it?



http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?p=455880&highlight=driftwood+chest+drop+rate#post455880

It is a multitude of factors including, but not limited to, the factors quoted above. Where people have been able to demonstrate an incorrect (high or low) drop rate or spawn rate, the devs have taken the evidence and acted appropriately.

At the same time, Kunark came out 1 year after EQ, epic quests came 5 months after Kunark, Velious came out 8 months after Kunark and 3 months after epics. EQ was still experiencing a massive influx of new players with the veteran players moving forward each expansion not having time to go back and farm old world content when new content was being released at a relatively brisk pace.

As I stated earlier in this thread, no one had wikis or walkthroughs handed to them on day 0 of each expansion or quest. Uber guilds held boss strategies close and quests were crowd sourced for weeks/months from scratch across many forums, some with good information others with poor information. The original EQ client disabling alt+tab further hampered the ability of players to accurately share information that didn't have access to a second box, writing/printing everything, or violating the EULA with WinEQ, but at the same time the disabling of alt+tab further re-enforced the "You're in our world now" aspect of the game.

To contrast the original experience and time line, players here on P99 know exactly where to level, what quests to complete, what mobs to camp and had additional time to complete each of these based on the ability of the devs to update/fix timeline issues as they cropped up. The player base here had 5 additional months of vanilla to farm/level/alts before Kunark released. The players had an additional 5 months between the release of Kunark and the implementation of epic quests, which everyone knew what exactly would be needed ahead of time and gathered the pre-epic pieces that were available in addition to gaining more levels. It has now been 18 months since Kunark dropped, and we do not have Velious, as of today that is an additional 10 months of Trakanon, VS, world dragons and an additional 6 months of epic quest completions. Without a release date of Velious, these disparities are going to become increasingly larger.

We will never truly get to experience EQ as we experienced it in 1999-2001 again (like re-watching the Sixth Sense), but we can attempt to help the devs to recreate a close approximation of the original trilogy. We can not erase the knowledge people have about the game, which was one of the amazing things about 1999-2001 everyone was fresh and experiencing a new world that was ripe for exploration. People didn't even have accurate maps for quite a while after vanilla release, as people had to draw them from scratch like 15th century explorers.

An across the board reduction in drop rates of rare items is not the fix, if there could even be one at this point in time, the solution is the release of new content for players to move on to.

Hopefully, the players and devs can continue to refine the server and timeline progression for an eventual new server that can be automated to release timeline appropriate content and patches. For now, I'm just playing to enjoy EQ and provide bug reports as I come across relevant material to help provide for a better experience in P99v2.0, if there ever is one. I would hope other people follow suit.

[CrystalBlue]

Oh cool. You have a bunch of proof that spawn rates and drop rates of a dozen or so different high-end mobs are off compared to live? Niiiiceee.

How do you think the above quoted patch note even came about?

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52646&highlight=driftwood+chest


Help do the research. Or maybe you just like everything being candyland? Choice is yours.

[Dullah]

With very few exceptions, everyone playing emu server know exactly what to farm and how to get it. The player skill level now is like an average of 10x higher than it was during this era on live. Also, blue has had kunark over twice as long as it was around on live before velious' release, so of course its flooded with fungi tunics (for example).

I can tell you, using spore king as an example, camping fungi tunic on live yielded FAR more tunics (and staffs/robes) than it ever will here with the kings super low spawn rate, yet those items are still concentrated here due to time. Went 20 spawns (10 hours) on red without seeing a king here where you'd only go an hour or two tops before one would pop on live.

Not everything is "more common", that is for sure.

[Tecmos Deception]

Help do the research. Or maybe you just like everything being candyland? Choice is yours.

Candyland? Wtf does that even mean?

And why would I do any research? I've already made it quite clear the reasons why I think there is a high concentration of items like fungis on this server compared to same-era live. And it's common knowledge and it's generally accepted that the timeline, population, and player types (and perhaps present-day knowledge vs. live-era knowledge) are the reasons why we've got a relative abundance of stuff like fungis on here compared to on live.

You're the one who thinks that mob spawn rates and item drop rates are off, YOU should be doing the research instead of coming here and yapping about what you think the problem is without having any proof.

[Eccezan]

During the early days of velious, fungi tunics were 30k on Fennin Ro if I remember correctly.

[Grahm]

lemme tell yah, joined after kunark when shit was poppin in blackburrow. dont remember even hearing of a fungi (remember hearing of ceremonial bp tho!) until luclin lolzzzzzzz. every1 and there dog knows its over camped now cause its fucking the #1 item. seems common sense lol. Literally imagine someone knows the future of a item, then the future comes and they do nothing about that item. u all dum

[webrunner5]

This game, P1999, is now going on nearly 3 years old. You have a bunch of people that knew right away at the start what to do and where to go to loot and level like hell. And there was no real nerfs and lot of XP bonus times in the begining.

So imagine my surprise there is a ton of top end gear available for all to enjoy at cheap prices. Hey we are all a lot smarter, well not all lol, than we were in 1999.

[Barkingturtle]

About 6 months ago or so (maybe a bit longer) a fungi tunic was going for 220k.

Maybe a lot longer. Maybe the first one sold went for 220k. Six months ago they were about half that, maybe. Then everything dropped in price because IB left and the number of super-twinks decreased.

[Picked]

i traded a hierophants cloak for a fungi tunic during the early days of velious, when both were going for between 18 and 25k...so im not sure what caused your servers prices to be retarded. dumb idea is dumb


I sold 3 fungi tunics at 250k per had people beg me to sell to them lol. Fucking sickens me how cheap they are now its lame as can be-

It's easy to get one or two people to farm the fungi. The Hierophants cloak is another matter entirely. Especially since you need a rogue to get back there in the first place.

The more something is camped the more of them that's going to be in circulation. Loweing the price. Simple supply and demand. Also the fungi serves a lot more of a purpose than the Hiero cloak. Which is basically just for stats.

[Slave]

Hierophant Cloak is best in slot, just like Fungi, for a lot of classes and a lot of situations.

[Spitty]

It's not as bad as you might think.

The decrease in item cost has been offset by an increase in plat value. 100kpp has a lot more buying power than it did 6-8 months ago, and not just because market saturation has forced the pricing down across the board.

Earlier this year, I could make 100k by camping a hiero cloak. Now, I need to camp two hieros and a handful of efreeti boots to make that same amount. That's a lot more time invested; hence, the value of that same amount of plat has risen in terms of the p99 economy wherein the currency is defined and limited by the time spent obtaining it.

[funhorroryes]

all items should of already been made rarer due to the unrealistic timeline

this isnt classic. kunark never lasted this long

[DOPE]

cocaine

[Spitty]

all items should of already been made rarer due to the unrealistic timeline

this isnt classic. kunark never lasted this long

What exactly would that accomplish? What part of 'classic' are you trying to preserve? Altering the drop-rate would create yet another non-classic element. Do you want things to be classic, or don't you?

I don't get where you're coming from, except that you're clearly offended that the gear you can trade isn't worth as much plat as it was.

You gotta draw the line somewhere; either the drop rates are preserved in classic format, or the serverwide rarity of certain items is preserved by making other game mechanics non-classic.

I think you'll find a lot of people would be unhappy when it takes twice the amount of time to camp an item just so yours doesn't lose 'value'. The delayed Velious release has already sent people away; your kind of thinking would further aggravate the exodus.

[falkun]

I think you'll find a lot of people would be unhappy when it takes twice the amount of time to camp an item just so yours doesn't lose 'value'. The delayed Velious release has already sent people away; your kind of thinking would further aggravate the exodus.

Its a 13 year old game releasing half as fast (or slower than that) as it did the first time. It gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "hurry up and wait".

/sarcasm on
Get those pixels before they're lost and gone forever.
/rollseyes
/sarcasm off

[Fountree]

Taking into account the rate that content is being added, global item rarity should be looked at IMO. That's just me though. I've said this many times in the past on this board but I'll do it again: Capturing the glory of Classic EQ is just as much about the big picture of when content is released (macro) as it is anything else. If content isn't added within a certain timeframe, it's difficult to compare the p99 experience to live. That's not a jab at the devs or anything, I think we all appreciate everything they've done in terms of the server and it's upkeep, but it's just the truth. No new content affects nearly every aspect of the game, from the economy, to population, to groups and server morale.

[rabuliz]

I started just over a month ago and it has been a rough go. Part of that is because I work so damned much; the other part is that it is a bear for a true newbie to get gear because it is so expensive. Thankfully some very kind folks have helped me out with some weapons, but from my perspective prices on low level monk gear are insane. Then again there are tons of twinked monks out there. Maybe that's why.

[Spitty]

The only way that would work without a flood of bug reports and petitions would be to have a linear decline in non-fixed item drops that started with the release of Kunark, and assuming that game mechanics and drop rates were perfectly classic at release.

As time progresses (a linear function), drop rates decrease (again, following a linear decline) accordingly. The change is extremely subtle (1%/month?) so that a major difference isn't noticed, but helps mitigate market flooding and preserves something of the 'big picture' you talk about without giving the impression that a change is actually taking place.

Your first problem is going to be fixed item drops - mobs that spawn on a specific timeline with a specific amount of drops. Do you change the spawn rate on Trak so that less BPs enter the market? Do you add garbage drops (Fire Opal classically comes to mind) to account for the decreasing drop rates? People probably won't get too fired up if the occasional VS dropped a gem instead of pants, but what happens when that becomes an every-other-week event?

Will that drive off more players than if we simply maintained a 'classic' drop-rate for all mobs and accepted the fact that the p99 economy is never going to be a classic emulation? From my view, it never was; people stockpiled manastones just like they stockpiled fungis, and will be stockpiling Lodi shields and so on.

Finally, what do you do with Velious to avoid what's happening now in Kunark? You can't start with decreased drops, or people will complain of a non-classic expansion. You can't decrease drops using the linear offset because you would eventually reach the zero crossing where absolutely nothing drops. Do we simply stop caring because, unlike Kunark, Velious is the final word and not an intermediary release like Kunark?

[Arclanz]

Sign me up for the longer leveling times! But first, get rid of the bugs/eploits/etc that permit monty haul powerleveling on P99. A level 1 character gets full xp from a lvl 40 mob? Preposterous.

Dang, Spitty, you are flirting with brilliance in your post up there. Bravo.

[falkun]

Taking into account the rate that content is being added, global item rarity should be looked at IMO.
So because you've consumed all the content at a higher rate than the rest of the server, the rest of the server should have a harder time consuming the content?

IMO, you should consume content slower. If you consume content slower, then the amount provided will last longer.
That's just me though. I've said this many times in the past on this board but I'll do it again: Capturing the glory of Classic EQ is just as much about the big picture of when content is released (macro) as it is anything else.
I completely agree. The glory of classic EQ is in the FORCED cooperation. For instance: hiring a druid or wizard for a port or raid forces working towards cooperation instead of domination.
If content isn't added within a certain timeframe, it's difficult to compare the p99 experience to live. That's not a jab at the devs or anything, I think we all appreciate everything they've done in terms of the server and it's upkeep, but it's just the truth.
I agree, its difficult to compare these two vastly different timelines. The P99 timeline is also different because of the tools that exist external to the game that did not in 1999-2001. The knowledge base now is vastly greater, allowing us to consume content that is released slower than classic in a manner which is faster than classic.
No new content affects nearly every aspect of the game, from the economy, to population, to groups and server morale.
Again, that's a perspective. Let me illuminate an alternate viewpoint: More even distribution of content consumption affects nearly every aspect of the game, from the economy, to population, to groups and server morale. You call it handouts, that's fine. But in this purely capitalistic server, the top of the pyramid consumes the content and then whines for more content. If everyone enjoyed the content slower, you wouldn't run out of goals to accomplish. You ran yourselves out of content, don't blame the rest of the server or force us to work harder than even you did because you are bored or want to preserve some self-entitled sense of "I'm better than thou".

EDIT: And I love that you bring up server morale. Most of the server loves the leveling, the grouping, and the raiding for their own gear. Buying BIS does not aid server morale. Killing boss_mob_01 and looting BIS, being congratulated by your raiding comrades does. AoEing Mistmoore or Unrest and discouraging those leveling for the first time from exploring those zones for fear of trains is detrimental to server morale. The best thing you can do for a person is help them help themselves (there's a "feed a man a fish" parable in there somewhere). If more persons feel better about the server, then you've increased server morale.

[Spitty]

Sign me up for the longer leveling times! But first, get rid of the bugs/eploits/etc that permit monty haul powerleveling on P99. A level 1 character gets full xp from a lvl 40 mob? Preposterous.

Dang, Spitty, you are flirting with brilliance in your post up there. Bravo.

I suspected something of the sort was happening during the original Kunark to Velious transition, because major guilds would report that certain raid targets were suddenly dropping gems instead of desirable loot.

It's an effective strategy from a management perspective, but I enjoy playing the game as it is more than I do thinking about how it could be manipulated to serve my play style better.

[phobus]

I started just over a month ago and it has been a rough go. Part of that is because I work so damned much; the other part is that it is a bear for a true newbie to get gear because it is so expensive. Thankfully some very kind folks have helped me out with some weapons, but from my perspective prices on low level monk gear are insane. Then again there are tons of twinked monks out there. Maybe that's why.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see this. Gear in general is more abundant here than it ever was on live (see the rest of this thread for the reasons why). Weapons that would have been considered pretty decent back in live Kunark (~.50 ratio two-handed swords like Blade of Xalgoz, for example) are practically worthless here and get sold to vendors more often than not. Ditto for bronze armor, which as I recall was all most people could afford until the 20s.

Maybe we have different ideas of what constitutes "low-level" monk gear, though. I think Netted or Mesh armor, Clawed Knuckle Rings, and maybe a Fighting Baton and Essence of Dol. I think if you'd had that stuff at level 20 on live you'd have been doing better than average.

[Spitty]

Your math - it isn't math. For one, four times the population means four times the manpower to camp items.

[falkun]

Your math - it isn't math. For one, four times the population means four times the manpower to camp items.

No. The important camps are already camped. If fungi is camped 100% of the time, it doesn't matter if there are two people on the server camping those fungis or 10000 people on the server and 6 are camping the fungi. If its camped and kept clear, that camp is already producing its maximum amount of loot, regardless of server population.

Since everyone here knows where all the camps are, we don't bother camping non-loot places. Therefore the lower amount of manpower is more effectively utilized to exploit the environment than it was on Live, negating most advantages to increased manpower through optimization.

[Spitty]

That's some great rhetoric, but it's not applicable in real-world terms.

No single two people (or six, or twelve) can maintain a camp and continuously produce a maximum amount of loot over a timeframe greater than maybe a couple of days. So, routine cycling has to occur for that camp to continue producing at maximum output.

A greater population increases the potential for constant cycling, and therefore a greater population is directly correlated to more loot. 4x = 4x is likely inaccurate, but was the statement I chose offhand to discredit the notion that four times the population means four times the rarity of items.

[Picked]

There's a lot less people here than a live server, which is for the best in many senses.

But having 4x the pop means 4x the rarity ... not to mention that we all know what mobs to exactly go for.

If most items here were say twice as uncommon, would you feel better? I think that's what you're seeing. For the modern mmo gamer, maybe this promotes people being more likely to play. People love their pixels.

This makes the most sense of any post on here really. The population has more to do with it than anything. You got the same spawn spitting out as many of the same item, but only half the people to buy it or even less. So it's going to lose it's value quicker. But like I said. I don't why that is a bad thing. Means when you go to twink your next character it will cost you half as much pp.

[falkun]

That's some great rhetoric, but it's not applicable in real-world terms.

No single two people (or six, or twelve) can maintain a camp and continuously produce a maximum amount of loot over a timeframe greater than maybe a couple of days. So, routine cycling has to occur for that camp to continue producing at maximum output.
No. The important camps are already camped. If fungi is camped 100% of the time, it doesn't matter if there are two people on the server camping those fungis or 10000 people on the server and 6 are camping the fungi. If its camped and kept clear, that camp is already producing its maximum amount of loot, regardless of server population.
Emphasis mine.
A greater population increases the potential for constant cycling, and therefore a greater population is directly correlated to more loot. 4x = 4x is likely inaccurate, but was the statement I chose offhand to discredit the notion that four times the population means four times the rarity of items.
So you concede the argument that camps are more effectively established and exploited on this server than on Live. Now lets add the smaller population, and therefore smaller market. Since fewer items are required to saturate the market due to the decreased total market size, the camps are not required to be farmed as much because the supply can be smaller and still match demand.

Any additional farming beyond market saturation will only further drive down the price and get left on random_alt_03 because now an individual user just obtains multiple of the same item instead of having to trade it back and forth between characters (which is only slightly trivial).

You're right, a camp not being exploited for loot due to lower server population will have a lower total output of items than a server where every camp is perpetually exploited. But that lower population also provides a decreased market size, which will require less supply to still meet demand. You can't have a lower population farming less items without also having a lower market to sell those items to. You are ignoring the demand side of supply & demand and just talking about supply.

[mwatt]

I have two opinions that I would like to contribute:

1) I think it is good to let new people have the same chance to get an item through camping that established people have had - even if it leads to eventual "overstock" in the market. This is a natural occurrence even if one were to slow the drop rates. I would guess that for the most part, people who are in favor of slowing the drop rates probably already have most of the items they want.

2) In my opinion, drop rates on P99 for many choice items are already less frequent than on Live. This may be due to a less frequent spawing of named mobs or lower drop percentage or some combination of the above. I will site as examples the Iksar Ceremonial Chestplate (Hunter/Forager cycle somehow spawns less nameds here) the FBSS (freaking uber-rare drop IMO) and the Heirophant Cloak -after many trips to the Crypt I have seen very few drop. Certain spells also seem a LOT more rare.

[Nerosys]

The biggest issue with things like the Fungi camp is Hide pulling which was not done on live now people just sit in tube room and single pull PH's all day therefore making it way too easy to obtain.

Rotokan

[Asher]

If its camped and kept clear, that camp is already producing its maximum amount of loot, regardless of server population.


As someone who is responsible for probably 30+ Fungi tunics on the server and been in many groups and eventually narrowed it down to just two people I can tell you that if it was not possible to invis pull king through all the mobs around him people wouldn't be pharming it as they have been.

That is the main reason why this particular item has become so common. Killing one mob every 28 minutes is much easier than keeping the camp clear.

Asher