2012 Presidential Debates

[Lexical]

Tomorrow will be the first debate and I figure we should at least have a thread about it. Hopefully some engaging conversations will occur, but who knows, it might just be me and the crickets. The topic for tomorrow (October 3rd) will be domestic policy. I foresee a bunch of dodging of issues. :D

[Slave]

Who wants to bet that Barack Obama receives the most amount of votes for a President in the history of the United States of America twice in a row?

[Lucky]

It's disingenuous to insinuate that Obama has ever won the most amount of votes. Perhaps in sheer volume, as population is always growing since the industrial revolution flipped the bitch on natural selection, but proportionally speaking it's not even close. He barely got 52% of the popular vote in 2008.

The popular vote doesn't mean anything anyways, as we are a Republic not a Democracy. Reagan has the most electoral votes of any president ever with 525.

--

Now that that's out of the way, I notice most Obama lovers are Bush haters, which isn't a difficult position to reach obviously. But how do you reconcile the fact that Obama has spent 3x as much as Bush in 1/2 the time and has reneged on virtually every campaign promise?

[Slave]

I always laugh when I hear this. Educate yourself. 90% of the deficit over the last 4 years was things that Bush didn't pay for. Ironically, the Right's massive propaganda machine is the reason why Republicans are consistently nearly as informed as turtles.

[dredge]

.

[Lucky]

I always laugh when I hear this. Educate yourself. 90% of the deficit over the last 4 years was things that Bush didn't pay for. Ironically, the Right's massive propaganda machine is the reason why Republicans are consistently nearly as informed as turtles.

Lol, are we still blaming Bush in 2012?

[dredge]

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[Thulack]

http://www.examiner.com/article/presidential-debate-sponsors-quit-to-protest-johnson-exclusion

i actually clicked that link and read it then clicked on the link to the ambassador Stevens story about being gay and read it and now that site has no credibility to me. Not that he shouldn't be allowed in the debate but god the stories on that site are some crazy shit.

[Kraftwerk]

Lol, are we still blaming Bush in 2012?

Only for the bad stuff. If something good happened post-2008 praise to Obama, if something bad happened he inherited it from Bush. This is common sense by now.

Also I genuinely feel sorry for you if you are wasting time watching a presidential debate, there are much better ways to waste time. *SPOILER ALERT* Obama and Romney are the same thing, sorry if that ruined the next four weeks of suspense for you. But you can start calling it Obamney, that's a fun word combo right?

[Lucky]

2 masks 1 face

[Autotune]

Only for the bad stuff. If something good happened post-2008 praise to Obama, if something bad happened he inherited it from Bush. This is common sense by now.

Also I genuinely feel sorry for you if you are wasting time watching a presidential debate, there are much better ways to waste time. *SPOILER ALERT* Obama and Romney are the same thing, sorry if that ruined the next four weeks of suspense for you. But you can start calling it Obamney, that's a fun word combo right?

I like

Robame

more.

[Lexical]

Maybe I am just dumb, but can somebody please explain to me how Romney and Obama are fighting under the same platform? Yes Romney used to have a more moderate stance on things, but after he was put through the circus show that is the GOP, he completely flopped. Obama has some far out there ideas too so don't get me wrong about that, but when a major pillar of a political party is teaching creationism in schools then you have to wonder how useful that party can be.

Generally I believe in a more free market than what Obama is prescribing, but the GOP has its own nose so far up its ass it doesn't even know which way is north. To say they are both the same just seems rather ignorant or dismissive. I want to know more about such a stance since I have never heard it before though so please educate me(and for once I am not being sarcastic).

[Visual]

Jesse Ventura 2016

[dredge]

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[Slave]

To say they are both the same just seems rather ignorant or dismissive.

It is a lazy and derivative model, espoused by those without enough intellectual curiosity to know better.

[Barkingturtle]

Because they pretty much have the same boss to answer to, and it's not the American public

Copping out by adopting an unrealistic ethos like libertarianism is just self-perpetuating your disenfranchisement. Yes, the current cycle is dominated by an unprecedented amount of money from corporate and private interests--but it is all we've got. Removing yourself from relevance through libertarianism is self-indulgent, Pyrrhic masturbation--at best.

There isn't always a perfect option. That's kinda life.

[Kraftwerk]

It is a lazy and derivative model, espoused by those without enough intellectual curiosity to know better.

Obama and Romney both report to Big Finance and other major Corps. Both will have an equal inefficiency resulting in zero actual change for the better. Both will perpetuate American debt slavery and another lost decade. My conclusion being that they are the same due to results being the same for either one being elected...

Makes me lazy and lacking intellectual curiosity. Makes sense bro.

PS - US Debt to GDP now 103% and rising 1.5% per month, total debt now 16.159T. Lets get this party started! I love QEternity it helps me buy more iThings.

[dredge]

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[Barkingturtle]

You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater, kiddos.

[Kraftwerk]

I found this really cool game online, The Federal Reserve actually made it too.

http://www.frbsf.org/education/activities/chairman/index.html

You get to be the Chairman. For maximum fun use their current policy of zero interest rates for 5+ years straight. I didn't finish yet but I think it results in everything working out great.

[dredge]

.

[Lexical]

Obama and Romney both report to Big Finance and other major Corps. Both will have an equal inefficiency resulting in zero actual change for the better. Both will perpetuate American debt slavery and another lost decade. My conclusion being that they are the same due to results being the same for either one being elected...

From the picture posted by dredge, I doubt you will disagree with me that companies like Harvard Uni, M$, and Google have a completely different financial stance than that of B.O.A, Goldman Sachs, and Citigroup. Bill Gates has said that he should be paying more taxes even after he donated billions of dollars to charities. I am sure we all heard about the big financial scandal that Goldman Sachs did, but what big financial scandal has Harvard U. done? How can you not see the dichotomy between the two sides?

Now correct me if I am wrong, but the basis of your argument is that since both parties received the most money from entities with larger disposable income, they are in bed with their campaign backers and answer to them. Now, I am going to ignore the giant leap in conclusive reasoning and instead offer a counter. Could it be that those big corporations backed the parties because they like their fiscal stances? This would then lead to the whole thing just receiving money for doing a good job.

[Lazortag]

Wow, already this thread has turned into a libertarian conspiracy theorist circle jerk.

[Barkingturtle]

Don't bother arguing with libertarians. Just laugh at them as they marginalize themselves into irrelevance. It's a childish worldview which allows a follower to whine about the state of things without ever really taking any meaningful position.

[Lazortag]

If Gary Johnson was unfairly excluded from polls and earlier debates, then the appropriate remedy isn't to add him to the presidential debate (especially if he was polling less than 2% when he was actually a factor). Why should he be preferenced over the nominees from other non-mainstream political parties? I understand if you feel he wasn't given enough exposure, but the idea that he should be included with Romney and Obama in the debates is silly.

[dredge]

.

[Barkingturtle]

Not voting, though--that'll further your agenda.

Your politics might be more compelling if they didn't feel like FaceBook copy-pasta.

[hatelore]

In short: the vast majority of Americans are stupid.

truth.

Romney is not what any conservative wanted, but Obama is past the point of just being a failure. What he has done since taking office is nothing short of treason.

[dredge]

.

[Barkingturtle]

of course I copied and pasted, sorry I didn't have time to create my own original meme's or whatever there called.

Thoughts. They're called thoughts.

[Lucky]

Copping out by adopting an unrealistic ethos like libertarianism is just self-perpetuating your disenfranchisement. Yes, the current cycle is dominated by an unprecedented amount of money from corporate and private interests--but it is all we've got. Removing yourself from relevance through libertarianism is self-indulgent, Pyrrhic masturbation--at best.

There isn't always a perfect option. That's kinda life.

“The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy; <--- you are here
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.”

As far as libertarianism being an unrealistic ethos, I think it's just a tad better than totalitarianism don't you? We've seen that 1 play out over and over again, but never a true libertarianesque government that I can think of (I'd argue America has never been a truly free society, because as consequence of freeing the slaves Lincoln started a monolithic federal government with himself as tyrant). The debate 100+ years ago was never left vs. right (which is completely meaningless), it was liberty vs. tyranny.

From the picture posted by dredge, I doubt you will disagree with me that companies like Harvard Uni, M$, and Google have a completely different financial stance than that of B.O.A, Goldman Sachs, and Citigroup. Bill Gates has said that he should be paying more taxes even after he donated billions of dollars to charities. I am sure we all heard about the big financial scandal that Goldman Sachs did, but what big financial scandal has Harvard U. done? How can you not see the dichotomy between the two sides?

Now correct me if I am wrong, but the basis of your argument is that since both parties received the most money from entities with larger disposable income, they are in bed with their campaign backers and answer to them. Now, I am going to ignore the giant leap in conclusive reasoning and instead offer a counter. Could it be that those big corporations backed the parties because they like their fiscal stances? This would then lead to the whole thing just receiving money for doing a good job.

All those same big banks backed Obama in 2008. In fact, Goldman Sachs was his 2nd largest donor (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638). He still owes them all favors. They're just putting their chips on Romney this time, so they have all bases covered no matter the outcome.

Like I said, 2 masks 1 face.

[Lexical]

truth.

Romney is not what any conservative wanted, but Obama is past the point of just being a failure. What he has done since taking office is nothing short of treason.

Which of the other GOP candidates would you have preferred over Romney?

[Lucky]

in other news NDAA upheld oman i am so shocked no1 cud have seen this comin even hitler didnt go so far to legislate this much tyranny oh but the cowboys vs redskins game is on and id rather watch tmz to keep up with the problems in lindsay lohan's life so who cares long as i got ppl cuttin my grass and cold domestics and football on TV how bad could this socalled "tyranny" be

[Lexical]

As far as libertarianism being an unrealistic ethos, I think it's just a tad better than totalitarianism don't you? We've seen that 1 play out over and over again, but never a true libertarianesque government that I can think of

Look into the early days of the U.S. with the articles of confederation. That way failed almost directly after the revolutionary war. It just isn't stable.



All those same big banks backed Obama in 2008. In fact, Goldman Sachs was his 2nd largest donor (http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638). He still owes them all favors. They're just putting their chips on Romney this time, so they have all bases covered no matter the outcome.

Like I said, 2 masks 1 face.

This is still staying with a conspiratorial mentality and I refute it again. Although Obama did bail all those big banks out (let's be honest, letting them fail would have been a bigger disaster than more deficit spending), but he proposed a lot of new legislature that pretty much made the business model of Goldman Sachs illegal and so they would no longer be federally insured if they wanted to continue. Dat sauce: http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2010/01/obamas_get_goldman_plan.html

Because of this, it would be only rational to conclude that Goldman Sachs switched to backing Romney since such legislation threatens the majority of their business model which should have been criminal in the first place.

[Lucky]

Obama and Romney are literally financed by the same people. They're both for infinite war. Erosion of civil liberties. Romneycare = Obamacare. List goes on and on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JSBhI_0at0

[hatelore]

Which of the other GOP candidates would you have preferred over Romney?

Sadly I didn't see any on the horizon, tex gubner= retarded, santoram = on the fence with him, blacky ( not being racist,this was how the media portrayed him) never stood a chance with our acidic media, although I'd have happily accepted him over Obama. At least he was a successful businessman.

So to be honest sadly none! The gop base itself is so corrupt and rhino now that I don't even see myself as a Republican anymore, I am a conservative. look at the speaker beuner(spelled that wrong i think) he's a blithering crybaby and looks drunk 100% of the time, and he's the gop leader lol.

In my opinion both parties are one and the same, until the American people (won't happen) wake up, we will continue to be controlled and overtaxed by our corrupt government.

They both wish to cater to a group of people who snuck in the country illegally just to garner there vote.

[hatelore]

And I shouldn't have got in this thread :) politics can make you a lot of enemies. Heh

[Lucky]

Democrats and Republicans both serve big banks, big pharma, and big oil. Democrats are arguably worse since they spend more and want to turn us all into slaves with gun control.

http://www.drgrotte.com/images/VoteAllYouWant.jpg

Vote for nobody, cuz nobody cares

[Kraftwerk]

From the picture posted by dredge, I doubt you will disagree with me that companies like Harvard Uni, M$, and Google have a completely different financial stance than that of B.O.A, Goldman Sachs, and Citigroup. Bill Gates has said that he should be paying more taxes even after he donated billions of dollars to charities. I am sure we all heard about the big financial scandal that Goldman Sachs did, but what big financial scandal has Harvard U. done? How can you not see the dichotomy between the two sides?

Now correct me if I am wrong, but the basis of your argument is that since both parties received the most money from entities with larger disposable income, they are in bed with their campaign backers and answer to them. Now, I am going to ignore the giant leap in conclusive reasoning and instead offer a counter. Could it be that those big corporations backed the parties because they like their fiscal stances? This would then lead to the whole thing just receiving money for doing a good job.

Harvard - Robert Rubin, Ben Bernanke and more importantly Lloyd Blankfein(aka GS CEO), see what I did there linking GS to Harvard.

And holy shit no way about backing Fiscal stance. So you mean major corporations and endowment funds that rely on an endless Keynesian money orgy of expanding debt to stay solvent are supporting candidates that want to keep the faucet turned on full blast because its all they know? The same process that is merely bending savers over, rewarding those under mountains of debt, and blowing up the largest bubble in human history (UST bubble gonna blow big someday).

I hope I'm wrong and everything works out great and like Barkingturtle (whose posts I find really funny) has said, those of us not choosing Repub or Dem and trying to effect change within the system are just nut jobs. If any of us nut jobs are right though...

[Kraftwerk]

(let's be honest, letting them fail would have been a bigger disaster than more deficit spending).

I'm being honest in saying, we will never know. Because instead of letting capitalism play out and letting a failing entity do just that, we said no its okay your poor decisions are now rewarded. And the single regulation that might have made a difference still stands repealed - Glass Steagell.

[hatelore]

Capitalism has been proven to work I think. But there's a difference between honest capitalism and corrupt capitalism, right now we have the latter. I think that to make capitalism work and flourish, it requires an honest society with people that have some sort of ethics and a morale high ground. See where I'm going with this?

Our biggest problem isn't corporations or government. In my honest opinion our biggest problem is we have a degradation of society. People nowadays lack Morales. You could blame it on Hollywood,failed school systems or whatever, but it does exist and it is destroying us, slowly. Just one man's opinion, please don't flame me :)

[hatelore]

and I seriously should have stayed out of politics, I can yap about this kind of stuff all day hah.

[Barkingturtle]

I'm being honest in saying, we will never know. Because instead of letting capitalism play out and letting a failing entity do just that, we said no its okay your poor decisions are now rewarded. And the single regulation that might have made a difference still stands repealed - Glass Steagell.

Frankly, capitalism is the played out, failing entity that we won't allow to die. It'll take us all down with it before we can put it out of our collective misery.

That's really neither here no there, though, because there's more to an election and a party's platform than mere fiscal policy. Personally, after wasting my vote on the Green Party in 2000 due to well-meaning, ineffectual angst over our two-party system--I tend to vote for the candidate that will appoint the type of justices I prefer. That's what I'd recommend libertarians do with their vote if they don't want to just wipe their butts with their ballots.

[Barkingturtle]

Our biggest problem isn't corporations or government. In my honest opinion our biggest problem is we have a degradation of society. People nowadays lack Morales. You could blame it on Hollywood,failed school systems or whatever, but it does exist and it is destroying us, slowly. Just one man's opinion, please don't flame me :)

Well if it's Morales we lack, we need to change our immigration policies. Derp.

[hatelore]

I actually disagree with the fact that capitalism is a failure. Capitalism brought about the creation of the only true utopia on earth(USA). Capitalism made it to where any man can become whatever he wants, if he has the proper guidance through life and he has the inner will to work for it.

That is something that past history never allowed for the common man. To become whatever you wanted as long as you were willing to work for it.

[hatelore]

Well if it's Morales we lack, we need to change our immigration policies. Derp.

I completely agree, that is one step in the right direction. But the laws are already there, politicians just need to have the backbone to enforce them.

[Rain1]

Pretty sure he is poking fun at your Hatelore. You typed Morales, a common last name of Hispanic/Latino people. The word you wanted was morals. Barking is witty

[Soleryn]

Capitalism brought about the creation of the only true utopia on earth(USA).

While I agree that our country is wonderful in many ways and provides ample opportunity, using a phrase like that will cause most people to think you have no grasp on the real world...or are voting Libertarian. ;)

[Soleryn]

Well if it's Morales we lack, we need to change our immigration policies. Derp.

This made me chuckle. +1

[hatelore]

Lol yeah sorry :) just a simple working man here, sometimes my spelling sucks. And yeah , was def over my head haha didn't even realize he was poking fun at me haha.

[hatelore]

While I agree that our country is wonderful in many ways and provides ample opportunity, using a phrase like that will cause most people to think you have no grasp on the real world...or are voting Libertarian. ;)

True hah after reading it it does sound kind of cheesy hah. But to be honest I am just a Texas boy who hasn't been anywhere other then Louisiana and Mississippi hahah.

[hatelore]

Who knows, maybe im bush in disguise!

[Kraftwerk]

That's really neither here no there, though, because there's more to an election and a party's platform than mere fiscal policy.

I'd like to refer you to a bit of wisdom from the 1990's regarding the current state of America and wealth taking precedence over other matters:

"Cash rules everything around me.
C.R.E.A.M., get the money.
Dolla dolla bill ya'll."

[Soleryn]

True hah after reading it it does sound kind of cheesy hah. But to be honest I am just a Texas boy who hasn't been anywhere other then Louisiana and Mississippi hahah.


It's all good man.

And if we really want to talk about the debates, lets talk about the 5 mile stretch of interstate that is being closed through the heart of Denver from 5-10 PM on a Wednesday because of its proximity to DU (where tonight's debate is). I don't know if I've ever seen so many pissed off people in Denver! Guess they have to have the president's escape route cleared. Word has it they are even prohibiting transport truck traffic around Denver tonight as well. I think they are scurred.

[theaetatus]

I actually disagree with the fact that capitalism is a failure. Capitalism brought about the creation of the only true utopia on earth(USA).

Wow. Possibly the most deluded post I've ever read. Not only are there other capitalist countries with much better standards of living, much lower crime rates and much less poverty and unemployment, none of these even come close to a 'utopia'.

[Barkingturtle]

But to be honest I am just a Texas boy who hasn't been anywhere other then Louisiana and Mississippi hahah.

There ain't nothin' wrong with that.

I think it's just important to remember that this is a huge nation blessed with a fantastically diverse population of mostly decent folks all possessing valuable ideas and life experience and striving for basically the same things: opportunity, justice and the total eradication of Islam.

[Barkingturtle]

I'd like to refer you to a bit of wisdom from the 1990's regarding the current state of America and wealth taking precedence over other matters:

"Cash rules everything around me.
C.R.E.A.M., get the money.
Dolla dolla bill ya'll."

Sounds like the Chinese have already gotten to you.

[hatelore]

And to be honest I will be voting for Romney, not because I like the guy but because I see no other option, just like the last 3 elections I voted in. And I am a realist, I realize real change will not come if we the American people don't stand up and demand it. So in other words until china or Russia has the balls to put us through a real war, I see no change coming. And I fear when that day comes, for my children.

[hatelore]

Wow. Possibly the most deluded post I've ever read. Not only are there other capitalist countries with much better standards of living, much lower crime rates and much less poverty and unemployment, none of these even come close to a 'utopia'.

I was kind of referring to the old days, I admit things are really sucking nowadays. And hell you may be 100% right, that's just how I see it. Heh

[hatelore]

There ain't nothin' wrong with that.

I think it's just important to remember that this is a huge nation blessed with a fantastically diverse population of mostly decent folks all possessing valuable ideas and life experience and striving for basically the same things: opportunity, justice and the total eradication of Islam.

haha 100% agree!

[hatelore]

And as i said that's just how i see it all, I'm not anyone special, infact i didn't even go to college. But i try to be honest in how i see. I used to think i was always right and everyone had to see it my way, and then i had kids of my own and grew up. Now I'm just happy that i got my health and I'm shhexxy. :p at least to my wife.

[Barkingturtle]

The best thing about America is that you can be as malinformed as you want and your opinion counts just as much as my correct one.

[Kraftwerk]

Sounds like the Chinese have already gotten to you.

Much like the Chinese, I'm collecting PMs.

[hatelore]

And to toot my own horn, college or not these hands of mine can fix just about anything you put in front of them. Which reminds me I better go back to work before I lose my job!

[hatelore]

The best thing about America is that you can be as malinformed as you want and your opinion counts just as much as my correct one.

Okay, that made me chuckle :p

[Raavak]

I always laugh when I hear this. Educate yourself. 90% of the deficit over the last 4 years was things that Bush didn't pay for. Ironically, the Right's massive propaganda machine is the reason why Republicans are consistently nearly as informed as turtles.
That's it. It's Bush's fault. The Obama/Pelosi/Reid axis had near total power, but were helpless?

[Barkingturtle]

Yeah, I gotta go pick up my welfare check and see my pot dealer. Good chatting with you dude. I didn't get to go to college either because I had some legal setbacks right around my senior year of high school. Us unwashed, uneducated masses gotta stick together. Except I disagree with everything you believe in. Oh well, at least we both hate Oklahoma.

[hatelore]

Lol, now your just picking on me haha.

[mgellan]

Capitalism brought about the creation of the only true utopia on earth(USA). Capitalism made it to where any man can become whatever he wants, if he has the proper guidance through life and he has the inner will to work for it.

Those of us who are in the real Utopias on Earth (howzit goin' eh?) beg to differ. Capitalism ensures that people who are willing to work hard have a chance at a good life but also ensures (in it's purest form) that people who have cultural or physical disabilities are swept into the trash can of life. Capitalism needs to be moderated by ethics and social justice. I think looking in from the outside the Democrats are futher along than the Republicans. Abandonment of religious dogma and extreme capitalism is a necessary precursor to a successful society. Republicans would move the US towards a theocracy of a virulance not unlike Iran.

On many measures of societal health the US is not ranked very high at all. The 2004 United Nations' Human Development Report, which ranks 177 countries on a "Human Development Index," measures such indicators of societal health as life expectancy, adult literacy, per-capita income, educational attainment, and so on. According to this report, the five top nations were Norway, Sweden, Australia, Canada, and the Netherlands. I think the US barely cracked the top 25. Not incidentally, they are also have some of the highest ratios of atheists to religious in the world.

TL;DR The guy with the magic underwear scares the living shit out of me.

Regards,
Mg

[Lexical]

Capitalism ensures that people who are willing to work hard have a chance at a good life but also ensures (in it's purest form) that people who have cultural or physical disabilities are swept into the trash can of life. Capitalism needs to be moderated by ethics and social justice. I think looking in from the outside the Democrats are futher along than the Republicans. Abandonment of religious dogma and extreme capitalism is a necessary precursor to a successful society. Republicans would move the US towards a theocracy of a virulance not unlike Iran.

Agreed.

[Lucky]

Canada is a socialist shithole, hardly a utopia. They don't even have nukes. Even France has nukes, and theyre fucking gay.

[Thulack]

It doesnt matter who is in office aslong as politicians can keep being legally bribed the common man will be screwed.

[XgrimX]

Anyone watched the 2016 Obama Movie? Pretty good insight on what Obama's plan for America really is. I don't want to vote for Romney he wasn't my first pick. I'm more of a Ron Paul Supporter and thinking that Rand Paul will run in 2016 will bring me peace. But for now... I know its a slogan but we really CAN'T afford 4 more years of Obama. Getting more people who are RELIANT on the government is not what we need. People need to get out and WORK for the American Dream. I currently work in an Emergency Room with 90% of people who come call ambulances because they can't get a ride to come to the ER for their headache and can't even afford a Tylenol. I'm sick of taking care of people who have a corrupt way of living. It only grows when Obama is in office. I work 1 Full time job and 1 Part-Time job. I make more then enough to support my family. But people like myself cannot support America.

Also it really disgusts me when I spend 250$ for groceries for about 2-3 weeks. People who have food stamps etc buy 2 carts full of food, for free....

[Lucky]

Yea fuck this welfare nanny state bullshit.

[Barkingturtle]

Anyone watched the 2016 Obama Movie? Pretty good insight on what Obama's plan for America really is. I don't want to vote for Romney he wasn't my first pick. I'm more of a Ron Paul Supporter and thinking that Rand Paul will run in 2016 will bring me peace. But for now... I know its a slogan but we really CAN'T afford 4 more years of Obama. Getting more people who are RELIANT on the government is not what we need. People need to get out and WORK for the American Dream. I currently work in an Emergency Room with 90% of people who come call ambulances because they can't get a ride to come to the ER for their headache and can't even afford a Tylenol. I'm sick of taking care of people who have a corrupt way of living. It only grows when Obama is in office. I work 1 Full time job and 1 Part-Time job. I make more then enough to support my family. But people like myself cannot support America.

Also it really disgusts me when I spend 250$ for groceries for about 2-3 weeks. People who have food stamps etc buy 2 carts full of food, for free....

Sounds like you need to pull harder on your boot straps.

[dredge]

.

[Peatree]

Also it really disgusts me when I spend 250$ for groceries for about 2-3 weeks. People who have food stamps etc buy 2 carts full of food, for free....

^^^^^^^
Bingo

[Tanthallas]

Sounds like you need to pull harder on your boot straps.

hahaha

[dredge]

.

[Barkingturtle]

^ this should upset you more, or instead of worrying about some poor people's 2 groceries cart, worry about why all these companies are having record breaking profits while everyone I know has to make more and more sacrifices just to barely make it day to day, while "they're" living off the fat of the lamb, cutting more and more jobs

True that.

And what's the alternative? Just let people starve so you don't have to feel envious of them at the check-out line?

[Daldolma]

don't fool yourself, there are plenty of non-capitalist countries that score higher.

for example:
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=4086092&page=1#.UGyqHNXNkS8

just google Denmark

Now I'm not saying Socialism is the answer for a Nation the size as the U.S. but going around tooting a U.S.A is the best just because attitude isn't necessarily right.

and back to my original point, there is another option in the "Libertarian party" but the public won't get to hear their position, and that's a shame and not right in my book and I don't even agree with the Libertarians on a few issues, but still they're the only ones with a different opinions on many issues.

Not really fair to compare those kinds of ratings for the US vs micro-European countries. Denmark has a population of 5.5 million. That's about the same as Minnesota.

America isn't and can't be #1 in everything, just by virtue of its size. But it's the most powerful and richest nation in the world, and it ranks consistently well in just about every measure that relates to quality and longevity of life.

We don't get everything right, but unless you want to live in a tiny, culturally homogenous country that relies on others for its security, you can't do much better than the US.

[Kraftwerk]

True that.

And what's the alternative? Just let people starve so you don't have to feel envious of them at the check-out line?

Valar morghulis.

[Lexical]

Here is the link for the presidential debate in case anybody wants it: http://www.youtube.com/politics

[Tanthallas]

Lets just mimic England in the 19th century. Kids can sleep in bunk beds at the factories they work at and 90% of the population can be on the verge of starvation. That will teach those lazy sobs.

[Barkingturtle]

This kind of shit might have been acceptable 50+ years ago, but we live in the era of the internet and immediate information. There's really no excuse to be an idiot at this point.


No no, you've got that backwards.

The internet is the best excuse for being an idiot.

[Lexical]

This thread is a fucking embarrassment

I like this thread :(

[Barkingturtle]

Explain.

It was a joke, idiot.

[Tarathiel]

fuck american politics, fuck a 2 party system, fuck corporate media

if you shit heads really think you have a "choice" at this years election then you are as blind as anne frank. your vote means shit

[XgrimX]

The biggest problem with America is that it's filled with people like this guy.

I'm so glad that you picked one thing to bash out of my statement but ignored the other facts. I just said I watched the video and it showed insight as do most documentaries. I know damn right there are many biased video's and media coverage out there. I simply said "Obama has a different dream for America". Four years ago when Obama said "Change has come to America" I believe that he wants us to go to a European Socialized nation. How else do you explain people not working and living DEPENDENTLY off the Government?

If you can't agree with me from the above statement then I think you have missed the bus completely.

The problem is simply that people don't want to work. We have too many American's feeding from the government right now and they are stuck in a rut.

A rut meaning they would rather sit on their lazy asses and do nothing to live. Rather then to work for the same amount or more wages. This is the ENTIRE essence on why our economy is failing. When people don't have the money to buy merchandise from small businesses because they only have an EBT card and are broke as shit.

Bailouts and increasing the taxes will never help this problem It's only feeding a monster that continues to grow.

[Tanthallas]

How else do you explain people not working and living DEPENDENTLY off the Government?

Level of Employment down

Wage rate down

Rate of Profit up

Unemployed people need to eat

Government taxes Employed people to feed Unemployed

Wage rate further suppressed

Rate of Profit goes up


But what you said makes great sense too...

[Lexical]

fuck american politics, fuck a 2 party system, fuck corporate media

if you shit heads really think you have a "choice" at this years election then you are as blind as anne frank. your vote means shit

Anne Frank? I can nazi your point. :D

You get it? It is a pun like nazi and not see.

But seriously, what? :confused:

[XgrimX]

Anne Frank? I can nazi your point. :D

You get it? It is a pun like nazi and not see.

But seriously, what? :confused:

I think he meant more of a Helen Keller.
http://www.helenkellerfoundation.org/images/eleanor.jpg

[dredge]

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[XgrimX]

How did Helen Keller pierce her ear?



Answering the stapler

[Lexical]

So we keep discussing taxes and no one has yet brought up how corporations are supposed to pay about 30% in taxes and most don't pay a dime. Some reading material: http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/ad-lib/2011/oct/12/corporate-tax-evasion-sends-us-dollars-and-jobs-ov/

If you do the numbers you will find that if the corporations start paying the full amount they owe and stop sending all the jobs they were supposed to create here overseas, employment rate would be up and we would be making enough money to cover our annual spending plus more. Romney is still running under the banner of tax breaks for people who don't pay taxes. It hasn't worked for the past 3 decades and still won't work for this decade.

[Xherez]

"Maybe I am just dumb, but can somebody please explain to me how Romney and Obama are fighting under the same platform?"


https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/546314_10151195285939776_1312497741_n.jpg

Because they pretty much have the same boss to answer to, and it's not the American public

If this is accurate then it shows Romney is supported by large banks and Obama is mostly supported by universitys and tech firms. I know which one I like better :)

[dredge]

.

[Lucky]

If this is accurate then it shows Romney is supported by large banks and Obama is mostly supported by universitys and tech firms. I know which one I like better :)

The graphic is misleading. The big banks already bought Obama in 2008. He did them a wealth of favours, IF u know wut i mean

BARACK OBAMA (D)
Top Contributors 2008 Presidential Election

University of California $1,648,685
Goldman Sachs $1,013,091
Harvard University $878,164
Microsoft Corp $852,167
Google Inc $814,540
JPMorgan Chase & Co $808,799
Citigroup Inc $736,771
Time Warner $624,618
Sidley Austin LLP $600,298
Stanford University $595,716
National Amusements Inc $563,798
WilmerHale LLP $550,668
Columbia University $547,852
Skadden, Arps et al $543,539
UBS AG $532,674
IBM Corp $532,372
General Electric $529,855
US Government $513,308
Morgan Stanley $512,232
Latham & Watkins $503,295

[XgrimX]

Then it wasn't funny. Shouldn't you be begging people for money to incentivize you to write a book or something?



You're right, all those millions of people who are applying to every shit job available and being turned down from all of them are just lazy. So are those people who put in 4+ difficult years of college and completed a degree who can't find a job. Damn people, why don't they just get off their lazy asses and uh... get someone who isn't hiring to hire them!

...Sounds like you were an Art Major?
http://www.imglols.com/wp-content/main/2012_02/i-dont-always-talk-to-art-students.jpg

[Tanthallas]

...Sounds like you were an Art Major?

Fox news has taught you well.

[runlvlzero]

Country run by fucking fascist nazi pigs on both sides now. Time to excersise our rights and /ignore the feds.

Noah/lite 2012 plzkthxbye.

[Lucky]

Fox News for all its faults is still the only network even remotely critical of the ongoing circus. If you think watching the Communist News Network or Rachel Maddow and the Ed show is gonna educate you then iono how to help cuz you need a zotepine prescription youre seein stuff the others of us arent

[Tanthallas]

Country run by fucking fascist nazi pigs on both sides now. Time to excersise our rights and /ignore the feds.

Noah/lite 2012 plzkthxbye.

Token Libertarian.

[runlvlzero]

Token Libertarian.

I'll take that as a complement lol. Liberty is nothing to be ashamed of or feared.

Truth being the highest of morals. And Liberty probably coming in a close second. Because you cannot have kindness and love without liberty and truth or (honesty).

Everything else leads to tyranny and oppression and slavery.

[dredge]

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[Tanthallas]

That's wonderful, but unfortunately Mises and Hayek were never able to form a coherent integrated theory of value and profit - leaving us with the Neoclassical gem we have today.

Abstract concepts mean little when they cant be shown to manifest in the really existing categories that confront us.

[runlvlzero]

Then we are doomed as a race. And the best we can do is tyranny and oppression (sarcasm). I would rather fail free then succeed as a slave. BTW love the av dredge one of my favorite scenes in Conan is the end ;p

Honestly I would like to affirm that there is a way liberty can be preserved without punishing the weak or disenfranchised. I think its possible. I think most of the doublespeak against liberty really is just as bad for the welfare state. Which is an unhappy thing no matter what. There are many things people could do to uplift themselves, but cant and all on disagreements and established taboos. Like what we can and cannot sell and who can and cannot sell it. And like what we must use to trade with. Its been established and no one bucks the system anymore, the grip is tightening and you see petty crime increasing.

Its a great debate to have but things are bad no doubt =/ and I kinda dont want to argue it lol sorry.

[Tanthallas]

k

[Woodcon Valor]

have any of you played on red99? permanent exp bonus and all that jazz its almost as good as obama :P

[Tarathiel]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/299448_441110239288387_1573555194_n.jpg

[dredge]

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[Lucky]

obama sure can tell a 5 minute story in 30 with the way he pauses

[hatelore]

Romney smoked that ass, imo. hah. Go grab horseface and ride off into the sunset obama :(

[XgrimX]

Xgrimx has now succumbed to "I have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation, so I will now post dumb memes" mode. Like I said, if you're an idiot then just accept it. I'm not judging you, just stay out of political conversations.

I was actually watching the debate.

[Tarathiel]

have any of you played on red99? permanent exp bonus and all that jazz its almost as good as obama :P

ok now i think youre just trying some ingenius meta-troll, how you can equate red99 to every single thread created is just fucking mind blowing. well played sir, well played

[dredge]

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[Tarathiel]

Who won the debate?







The federal reserve.

+1

dredge kicks ass btw, tho i havent seen them in years. they used to play local shows around here all the time

[Daldolma]

Then it wasn't funny. Shouldn't you be begging people for money to incentivize you to write a book or something?



You're right, all those millions of people who are applying to every shit job available and being turned down from all of them are just lazy. So are those people who put in 4+ difficult years of college and completed a degree who can't find a job. Damn people, why don't they just get off their lazy asses and uh... get someone who isn't hiring to hire them!

Haha, I was with you until the difficult years of college. College in America is an absolute joke and a serious contributor to the state of our economic decay. We drive the costs up by promising every idiot kid that he'll get however much college loan money he needs to secure an education, then we act surprised when a bottom-of-the-barrel intellect has trouble paying back a quarter of a million dollars in loans.

A college education is not a fast track to excellence or high paying jobs anymore. It's a training ground where young adults have to prove they can read, write, and not do anything egregiously stupid before being ushered into their future careers. College today is what high school was in the 50s. We need to stop treating every kid that wants to go to college like he's a future MD and start treating him like the overwhelming likelihood that he will earn roughly $50,000 a year at his peak, assuming he is fortunate enough to find work.

The college system needs to be reformed. The private system is fine, but the loan system is not. If you want to secure loans for a private college education, there should be some massive hurdles to clear -- particularly in the form of standardized tests. Guarantee gradated loans to the top 10% based on standardized testing. The rest can go to public universities, community college, or enter the work force. There is no shortage of positions for manual laborers. But we don't need 20 million arts and crafts graduates of podunk private universities with massive debt that will turn them into slaves for the rest of their lives.

Of course, this will never change because once you guarantee loans for everyone, you can't roll it back and tell parents of dumb kids that their kid doesn't deserve enormous loans for an education they almost definitely don't need and won't utilize. And the corporate world doesn't want it to change, because so long as kids come out of school with debts in the tens of thousands of dollars and unsubsidized interest rates of 8%, they're going to have to take whatever job pays them enough to service that debt. We've got kids forced into careers they don't want the minute they get out of school.

Aside from the obvious impacts that has on the economy, IMO it also has seriously damaged the growth of economy by eliminating potential entrepreneurs. I'm not some hardcore Repub that pushes small business owners like they're Jesus's apostles, but when almost every kid coming out of college is left with a loan that forces them to take an entry-level job, you're obviously eliminating the opportunity for a lot of those kids to put together a plan to start their own businesses or be innovative in any way. They simply can't afford to take out even more loans to drop on a business idea that may fail when they already have loan payments to make.

[Lexical]

Okay, back to the debate.

Romney came out very strong in my opinion. I did not expect a return to his original virtues though I think it was shady to be running under a completely different platform from the get go. They presented their sides very intelligently and well, but Romney threw a curve ball and I don't think Obama was equipped enough to handle it.

Also, that moderator was one of the worst. You have to cut off the politicians or they keep rambling. Towards the end they just ended up shotgunning every issue simultaneously. Honestly though, both presidents should have to draft their argument in written form and send it to the other and then discussed because he said she said gets very old after 30 minutes.

Still, Romney surprised me. I still don't see a bright future for him, but it is definitely brighter than it was before the debate.
What is everyone's thoughts?

[Lucky]

Still, Romney surprised me. I still don't see a bright future for him, but it is definitely brighter than it was before the debate.
What is everyone's thoughts?

Who won the debate?







The federal reserve.

[XgrimX]

To Daldolma:
I agree with you completely. To the people who are going to college for "Arts" and "Crafts" and decide to go to a private school taking out 75k in student loans thinking that you will be "GUARANTEED" a job when you get out is ludicrous. When you decide you are ready for college do your research and find a job that is in need. Most people have delusions of grandeur when they think a big businesses are going to hire them.

I'm 26 have 2 jobs that I don't necessarily love, but I have a backup plan. If something along the way jumps out at me I can take it. Whats the worst that can happen? I go back to working in the hospital setting and make great money and great benefits and I can support my family?

It's all about the decisions you make in life.

Furthermore, if you don't want to be 26 living with your parents and living off the government in your own sorrows. Don't go to school for something stupid as hell.

[Daldolma]

Okay, back to the debate.

Romney came out very strong in my opinion. I did not expect a return to his original virtues though I think it was shady to be running under a completely different platform from the get go. They presented their sides very intelligently and well, but Romney threw a curve ball and I don't think Obama was equipped enough to handle it.

Also, that moderator was one of the worst. You have to cut off the politicians or they keep rambling. Towards the end they just ended up shotgunning every issue simultaneously. Honestly though, both presidents should have to draft their argument in written form and send it to the other and then discussed because he said she said gets very old after 30 minutes.

Still, Romney surprised me. I still don't see a bright future for him, but it is definitely brighter than it was before the debate.
What is everyone's thoughts?

Romney's got no chance in the election. It doesn't really matter what he says or does from here on out. First of all, there are a lot more likely voters that are Democrats. Second of all, Democrats have cornered the market on African-American, Hispanic, and gay voters. Romney would have to absolutely dominate amongst independent white voters to have any shot, and that's just not going to happen. He's polling at roughly 55% of white voters (Obama's at ~39) and 49% of independents (Obama's at ~41). He's got sizable leads in both demos, but that's not enough when Obama is getting 90+% of the African-American vote, 70+% of the Hispanic vote, and just under 70% of the gay vote.

Obama's a unique presidential candidate. He's pulling in super majorities of minority votes, and he's doing well enough with the elderly and college-aged white demographic to secure a sizable margin of victory. He's the first president I can think of that's really won by such drastic margins while getting beaten fairly badly in the "average Joe" white, middle aged vote. It's partly due to a shift in US demographics.

[XgrimX]

By the way- Romney came out swinging and really threw the president under the bus a few times and that really makes me laugh. He seems like has a grasp on economics. Much better then Obama. Like I said he wasn't my first but Obama has made some really stupid ass promises and decisions in the last four years.

[Daldolma]

To Daldolma:
I agree with you completely. To the people who are going to college for "Arts" and "Crafts" and decide to go to a private school taking out 75k in student loans thinking that you will be "GUARANTEED" a job when you get out is ludicrous. When you decide you are ready for college do your research and find a job that is in need. Most people have delusions of grandeur when they think a big businesses are going to hire them.

I'm 26 have 2 jobs that I don't necessarily love, but I have a backup plan. If something along the way jumps out at me I can take it. Whats the worst that can happen? I go back to working in the hospital setting and make great money and great benefits and I can support my family?

It's all about the decisions you make in life.

Furthermore, if you don't want to be 26 living with your parents and living off the government in your own sorrows. Don't go to school for something stupid as hell.

I agree that the sense of entitlement that college grads tend to have is pretty ridiculous. You don't deserve a high-paying job because you spent four years playing Halo and writing essays about Foucault. You've got to hustle to find quality job opportunities.

But at the same time, I don't have any problem with people studying stupid subjects in college. The truth is, what you study doesn't really matter. The rate of unemployment for STEM college graduates is actually higher than it is for your average college graduate. Generally speaking, you're not going to get a job based on your undergraduate major no matter what it is -- most employers just want to see that you've gone to college and are capable of performing the basic tasks required to not fail out or be expelled. Again, that's generally speaking. Of course there are certain fields where your major matters, but most people aren't engineers or doctors or astronauts -- they're Walmart managers or secretaries or teachers.

That being the case, there's no reason to be perpetuating a college loan system that results in low-potential students having access to essentially unlimited loans that a) vastly inflate the costs of attendance, b) cost the taxpayer vast amounts of money, and c) leave the student with unreasonable loan burdens that limit their career choices the minute they graduate.

[XgrimX]

Well just between me and you. If your not in a college program that specializes either graduate level or undergraduate level your just getting left behind in the dust. These are the people who are getting jobs these days. Unfortunately that's the way it is. I would love to be an astronaut or a rock star but I decided on Physical Therapy =(. But hey its working out at the moment.

[Daldolma]

They're not the only courses offered, but they're the courses pursued by the vast majority of American college students. There are 60,000 STEM graduates a year in the US, out of 1.75 million college graduates per year. That's about 3.5%. For everyone else, undergraduate coursework is a joke. It's virtually impossible to fail. As it relates to the professional world, college is a testing ground to prove that you're not too incompetent to read, write, meet deadlines, and not get expelled. Again, I'm painting in broad strokes. These are generalizations. If someone graduates from Harvard with a humanities degree, they're probably well prepared for a good number of jobs in a variety of fields. But most college kids don't go to Harvard.

I'd also quibble with the notion that undergraduate STEM degrees are all that much more difficult. The knowledge, and theoretically the grading, should be more absolute, but most STEM courses grade on curves that effectively set your difficulty at a peer-equivalence standing. Don't be the weakest in the herd and you pass.

But regardless of difficulty, I don't really see what your point is. That graduating with an engineering major is so difficult that you are entitled to a job within the field, by sheer virtue of the fact that you graduated with a degree in that field? Of course that's not true. Like any other field, you need to be competitive with your peers to get a quality job. But the world is not exactly closed off to STEM graduates. You're a college graduate, like everyone else -- you can get jobs in other fields, like everyone else. The point is that your degree doesn't really mean all that much. It's a good investment relative to not having a college degree, but it's no guarantee of the successful career path that college degrees used to ensure. And it's certainly no guarantee that you'll be able to pay off significant college loan money in any kind of reasonable time frame.

[mgellan]

it ranks consistently well in just about every measure that relates to quality and longevity of life.

We don't get everything right, but unless you want to live in a tiny, culturally homogenous country that relies on others for its security, you can't do much better than the US.

Nooooo, it doesn't. Read back to my original post, the USA ranks much lower than most countries in exactly those measures. Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true :)

Regards,
Mg

[MrSparkle001]

Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true :)

Regards,
Mg

That's pretty much what Romney said.

[Daldolma]

Nooooo, it doesn't. Read back to my original post, the USA ranks much lower than most countries in exactly those measures. Saying the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true :)

Are you referring to the post in which you discuss the Human Development Index, which ranks 177 countries? The post in which you praise the Human Development Index for "exactly those measures" which relate to quality and longevity of life? The one in which you deride the US for "barely cracking the top 25"? Because there seems to be an issue with both proportions and your fact checking. The top 25, out of 177, is not much lower than most countries by any definition of "most" that I am aware of.

Beyond that, the United States is not barely cracking the top 25. In the 2011 rankings of Human Development Index, the United States ranks fourth -- behind Norway, Australia, and the Netherlands. Norway has a population of 5 million. Australia has a population of 22 million. The Netherlands has a population of 17 million. If you combined all three countries, their amalgamation would have a population total less than 20% of the United States' population. Norway is comprised of 86% Norwegians. Australia is comprised of 90% European ancestry. The Netherlands is comprised of 81% Dutch. As I said, if you desire to live in a micro-nation that is culturally homogenous and dependent upon others for security, there are a few options that offer higher average quality of living than the United States. Although, of course, immigration prospects to a nation of 5 or 17 or 22 million are fairly bleak for, well, just about everyone.

The bit about atheism is also pretty silly. The US, Ireland, Israel, Spain, and Italy are among the most religious developed nations in the world. They rate #4, #7, #17, #23, and #24 in Human Development Index. The Czech Republic is statistically the most atheist developed nation in the world. They rank #27 in Human Development Index.

[FoxxHound]

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/314183_516261715069953_1911816237_n.jpg

[dredge]

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[dredge]

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[Pringles]

Not everyone can work in healthcare, your lucky you have a job.

I personally know plenty of people who graduated with degrees in healthcare fields, as long as 3 years ago, that can't even get an interview. Radiology Techs for example.

These colleges are telling everyone come back to school, get in to healthcare, guaranteed jobs, it's bullshit.

Get in line.

As a manager of a team of 12, I've interviewed hundreds of people over the last few years. No one is willing to "shovel shit" and work up the corporate ladder anymore. They all think "I have no experience, I have a degree, I am entitled to 100k a year, and I wont accept anything less."

Guess what? I dont hire these folks. People need to EARN their way up the corporate ladder, very few have it delivered to them on a platter.

[Hitchens]

Lehrer did his job to reasonable expectations. Blaming Lehrer for Romney's debate strategy and Obama's reluctance to challenge it is simply rubbish.

It probably doesn't matter. Debates are political theater and the amount of undecided voters who make up their minds via debates is not proportional to the amount of votes Romney needs to win the election.

Despite planning to vote for Obama, I am amazed at peoples' need to blame Lehrer for Obama's debate strategy or lack thereof.

[Lucky]

Justifying Obama 2012 to your grandkids will be like explaining to them how Bush '04 was the landmark decision of your life.

http://blueherald.com/uploads/Batocchio/2009/Bush_happy.jpg

[Knuckle]

Tomorrow will be the first debate and I figure we should at least have a thread about it. Hopefully some engaging conversations will occur, but who knows, it might just be me and the crickets. The topic for tomorrow (October 3rd) will be domestic policy. I foresee a bunch of dodging of issues. :D

shut the fuck up. engaging conversation? do you think politics involve brain cells or intelligent conversation? it's a couple of jackasses lying in front of a camera.

[Woodcon Valor]

obama won the debates thats FOR SURE :) Romney just a stinkin lier, lyin ryan and lyin romney thats what we call them in our house

obama reminds me of red99, very eloquent and distinguished..., presidential. something romney will never be. Try out red99 we have a permanent 75% exp bonus and THRIVING new players community!

[Lucky]

http://media.hideyourarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/fb1dc8b84f4c8266f91cf0823691a694966ecfb4_m.jpg

[dredge]

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[Yardcore]

One sad thing about US news network is that, I felt like when I was listening to the debate of Obama and Romney aren't enough. CNN, MSNC, and Fox news are even crazier.

What happened to just report the news and let "AMERICAN" people to decide who to pick?

Now a day, they sit down and talked about fucking bullshit like oh; President Obama looks down when Romney confronted him about Healthcare, oh Romney seems like he doesn't have any visions, etc....

Fox, MSN, CNN is nothing but fkin joke. I hate when the news told people what to decide, and many of them bought in these craps that they fed....

I don't really give a fk what Rachel Meadows, Hannity, or Rush think.

[orsk]

Obama cannot run on his record. Bill Clinton said Obama had it much worse than him when he first got elected, so that leaves me wondering why Obama clearly promised he would turn things around in 3 year. So basically what im to understand is that America simply needs 4 more years now because the problem was much worse than he knew. Tough break buddy, your supposed to be a leader own up to it be a man and step down. Now that everyone is disappointed with his record for the past 4 years its turned into, but but but it would be worse if Obama had not implemented the things he did. His lackluster performance last night was just the death rattle of his term.

[Thulack]

Really it doesnt matter what happens. Obama wins and we are in the shitter in 4 years and Rep's say "told you he couldn't do it". Romney wins and we are in the shitter in 4 years and the Dem's will say"told you he couldn't do it".

[Woodcon Valor]

Really, 75%?
I did not know that

Now you do! join our server hit me up in game if you need some newbie items :P server is THURVIVING! we all need to keep letting other players know about the greatness of read99 one person at a time if we must

[dredge]

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[Lexical]

shut the fuck up. engaging conversation? do you think politics involve brain cells or intelligent conversation? it's a couple of jackasses lying in front of a camera.

Accurate! Politics: the age old game of who can produce the most convincing bullshit :D

[Gustoo]

Really it doesnt matter what happens. Obama wins and we are in the shitter in 4 years and Rep's say "told you he couldn't do it". Romney wins and we are in the shitter in 4 years and the Dem's will say"told you he couldn't do it".

qft

[Hitchens]

I know a lot of folks would realize that there are other choices like the Libertarian and Green Parties, but most Americans prefer to keep things simple and do as told by the media or what their high school government teacher told them to do.

The Libertarian Party is a clusterfuck of in-fighting, backstabbing, manipulation, craziness and rules lawyering. Basically take everything wrong with the two main parties and then throw in steroids.

[Yardcore]

Even though, I think you do have a point. In my opinion, I think America does have a place for another party or two.

What you mentioned is also happening in Democrat and Republican. Do you think Democrat, and Republican do not have an in-fighting? It's even worst in the Republican party. They only banded together because they don't have a choice.

Its kind of silly for people to only have a choice between Left or Right, 2 options of stupidity are forcing me to vote for the lesser evil.

[Hitchens]

Even though, I think you do have a point. In my opinion, I think America does have a place for another party or two.

What you mentioned is also happening in Democrat and Republican. Do you think Democrat, and Republican do not have an in-fighting? It's even worst in the Republican party. They only banded together because they don't have a choice.

Its kind of silly for people to only have a choice between Left or Right, 2 options of stupidity are forcing me to vote for the lesser evil.

Of course all the things I listed that were problems in the LP exist in both mainstream parties. The difference is that the two mainstream parties are not completely paralyzed by it and unable to get members elected due to it. With the Internet, it becomes a bit harder to maintain the narrative that the only reason the LP yields such abysmal numbers is due to MSM shunning. The problem goes much deeper.

By all means, try to change it. I hope you have more luck than those who came before you. No sarcasm intended whatsoever.

[Lazortag]

LOL. Romney never had a chance to win anyways.

Any black person who votes will be voting for Obama, just like in 08. They will literally go to vote for the 1st or 2nd time ever just cuz they'll be voting for another black man.

This of course is HUGELY advantageous to Obama, as he need not appeal specifically to the "minorities" because, again, they're all voting for him anyways.

This means he need tailor his lies only to everyone else, whilst Romney must lie to all the same people as Obama, AND all the racial minorities who probably already consider him to be a white devil.

Most democratic candidates get at least 90% of the black vote, so the fact that Obama got 96% of the black vote has less to do with the colour of his skin than it does his political beliefs. It seems from your post that you're saying they overwhelmingly voted for him just because he's also black, which isn't really supported by any data. Similarly, republican candidates tend to get more of the white vote, so it would be disingenuous for me to say that white people are only voting for Romney because they're just "voting for another white man".

[Daldolma]

Most democratic candidates get at least 90% of the black vote, so the fact that Obama got 96% of the black vote has less to do with the colour of his skin than it does his political beliefs. It seems from your post that you're saying they overwhelmingly voted for him just because he's also black, which isn't really supported by any data. Similarly, republican candidates tend to get more of the white vote, so it would be disingenuous for me to say that white people are only voting for Romney because they're just "voting for another white man".

Clinton won the black vote 83/10 and 84/12. Gore won it 90/9. Kerry won 88/11. Obama won the black vote 95/4 in 2008, and the amount of black voters increased by 4% (white voters decreased by 1%). In a recent poll, the current 2012 split was Obama 94, Romney 0.

He'd win the black vote anyway, but he's clearly winning it by historically large margins. A few percentage points is an enormous difference when talking about nationwide elections. You can debate the reasons for his success, but that's the fact.

He's also dominating the Latino vote by historically unseen margins (relative to typical Democratic nominees), and the proportion of Latino voters has skyrocketed.

And he's winning the gay vote by large margins, too -- but he's not winning it by any greater of a margin than your typical Democrat.

He's getting killed in white voter polls, but it doesn't really matter. He's going to win this election going away.

[runlvlzero]

Vote Ron Paul =)

[Rushmore]

I didn't get to read all the posts so sorry if it was mentioned.

but all I read was pretty much how we are so far screwed it's not even funny. I agree.

No one will solve our problems. OR the worlds. We could probably agree and disagree on a lot of issues. I'm sorta in the middle. But GOD exists. If you don't believe in GOD there is no loss in asking him to speak to you and show you the truth one evening before you go to bed! If he exists!?

Study the bible and the history of Israel since becoming a country in 1948. "No generation shall pass!" We are in the last generations... Most of you know whether you believe in GOD or not...Things aren't going to get any better. No one has the answer.

IT says in my bible among many other things that in the last days the world will come against Israel. Lots of wars will happen. Famine! Earthquakes. Signs in the stars! It says in the dusty book that the JEWS would be scattered among the nations and one day gathered back to ISRAEL! Which has happened! 1948

It also predicts that the worlds problems will be so large that one man will come with the answers and everyone will love him! (the Antichrist)

That money is the root of all eveil... (SEE ALL THE DEBT....which leads to WARS)

EQ pals. Maybe I'm the idiot. Maybe you're the idiot. But only one of us... or someone else is right! Right or Wrong. There is only one truth!

Love...Rushmore

[Cwall]

Maybe I'm the idiot

will go with that one

[Lexical]

I didn't get to read all the posts so sorry if it was mentioned.

but all I read was pretty much how we are so far screwed it's not even funny. I agree.

No one will solve our problems. OR the worlds. We could probably agree and disagree on a lot of issues. I'm sorta in the middle. But GOD exists. If you don't believe in GOD there is no loss in asking him to speak to you and show you the truth one evening before you go to bed! If he exists!?

Study the bible and the history of Israel since becoming a country in 1948. "No generation shall pass!" We are in the last generations... Most of you know whether you believe in GOD or not...Things aren't going to get any better. No one has the answer.

IT says in my bible among many other things that in the last days the world will come against Israel. Lots of wars will happen. Famine! Earthquakes. Signs in the stars! It says in the dusty book that the JEWS would be scattered among the nations and one day gathered back to ISRAEL! Which has happened! 1948

It also predicts that the worlds problems will be so large that one man will come with the answers and everyone will love him! (the Antichrist)

That money is the root of all eveil... (SEE ALL THE DEBT....which leads to WARS)

EQ pals. Maybe I'm the idiot. Maybe you're the idiot. But only one of us... or someone else is right! Right or Wrong. There is only one truth!

Love...Rushmore

Well now this thread is a sacred text >.<

[Frieza_Prexus]

That money is the root of all eveil... (SEE ALL THE DEBT....which leads to WARS)

"For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." 1 TIMOTHY 6:10

This is generally taken to mean that pursuing money as an end in and of itself can contribute to one's ruin. It does NOT mean that a currency based economic system is sinful. The Bible clearly recognizes that currency issuance is a proper function of the government.

Study the bible and the history of Israel since becoming a country in 1948. "No generation shall pass!" We are in the last generations... Most of you know whether you believe in GOD or not...Things aren't going to get any better. No one has the answer.

While there are clearly prophetic signs of the end times, no man knows the appointed hour. It is fallacious to think that things cannot improve. Being told that the end times are the "worst" does not mean we are on a linear slope of degradation. Do you believe that humanity was better off 500 years ago? 50?

To think that the world cannot be improved is a losing battle, and it is a defeatist mindset. Because no one knows the hour, you are expected to work to your utmost until the very end. Things can always be better.

Though prophecy clearly shows a time of great turmoil, it also ends with the Victory of Christ. Do you plan to look Him in the eye and say that you gave up?

[Reiker000]

Oh great, now we've summoned the religious nuts.

If you look at how far religion has single-handedly set the human race back, then the current state of the world starts looking a lot more positive in comparison.

[Frieza_Prexus]

If you look at how far human nature has single-handedly set the human race back, then the current state of the world starts looking a lot more positive in comparison.

Fixed.

[Reiker000]

Your point means nothing. Maybe you should try explaining your position instead of just altering a quote and attaching a "ftfy" to it. People much more intelligent than you have been debating human nature and its effect on civilization for centuries.

I would agree that the general populace's humanistic quality to explore mysticism/spiritualism throughout the years has been exploited by others seeking power ie. most organized religions.

[Frieza_Prexus]

It means nothing, yet you find enough meaning to "agree."

I am simply responding to your "religious nut" statement. That surely meant something. I submit that you invited a rebuttal. If you're looking for a meaningless statement, I suggest you re-read your statement concerning more intelligent people than myself. What did you hope to accomplish with that, other than a dismissal of me?

My point was simply to note that religion is not the cause of our problems. It is instead the exploitative nature of humanity. Which you yourself agreed with.

I posted the Southpark picture because I thought it was extremely topical. Dare I say, clever.

[azeth]

I feel like most Americans watch these debates for content and the remainder of us watch them to independently determine how the masses feel about their candidate.

"masses" - isn't that so pretentious?

http://i.imgur.com/dhd0A.jpg

[KefkaPalazzo]

Not sure what this thread is about but <Nihilum> is looking for dedicated raiders on Red.

[azeth]

Holy shit the moment Paul Ryan opened his mouth Obama had this sewn up.

[Reiker000]

Holy shit the moment Paul Ryan opened his mouth Obama had this sewn up.

lol yeah.

This is a slaughter.

[Kraftwerk]

Holy shit the moment last Friday's jobs report came in with 7.8% UE, Obama had this sewn up.

Just made a quick tweak on that for you. Although the exact point of having sewn up his victory likely came much much earlier than that.

[Reiker000]

It means nothing, yet you find enough meaning to "agree."

I wasn't necessarily agreeing with you because you said nothing that could be agreed (or disagreed) with.

Essentially, your strange thought process seems to be the following:

Religion is not to blame for any of the world's problems.

"Human nature" (bullshit term) is responsible for the world's problems.

In other words, it's not really anyone's fault that the corrupt CEO did some insider trading, it was just part of his human nature to want to make more money.

It's BS. Religion was developed to control people, so the elite could profit while humanity as a whole suffers (war, hatred, taxation, etc.). Ignoring that and buying into it while saying "well, it's just in my human nature" is also BS. And if it was part of human nature, then we'd all believe in God/Allah/The Buddah/whatever. But thankfully there are a lot of rational people out there who prove that wrong.

I'm not just attacking you because it's fun or whatever. Anyone who starts bringing Bible quotes into a political thread should expect these kinds of responses, tbh. But you can't blame me, it's just in my human nature to point out how wrong you are.

[Supreme]

Some interesting points.

There will be no President that can solve or fix all the problems with the US or the World. So i would not expect the impossible and believe that either Romney or Obama will start with their Presidency. Remember the primary duty of the President is to be the civilian Commander-in-Chief of our Armed Forces. By doing so he swears to protect and defend the Constitution.

Everything else is rhetoric and pandering to get your vote.

Personally it is obviously stupid for a bi-racial presidental canidate to fully identify with being BLACK just to get people to vote for him based on his race.

[Lucky]

i like the puppet on the right over the puppet on the left

but idk do i want to vote for fascism or communism???

[Frieza_Prexus]

I wasn't necessarily agreeing with you because you said nothing that could be agreed (or disagreed) with.

Essentially, your strange thought process seems to be the following:

Religion is not to blame for any of the world's problems.

"Human nature" (bullshit term) is responsible for the world's problems.

[...]

But you can't blame me, it's just in my human nature to point out how wrong you are.

Since you seem to be having trouble moving in any direction other than a circle, you stated that religion itself was the problem. That it, in and of itself, was responsible for "holding humanity back."

I countered with the following: While religion can clearly be a tool, the fault lies with an individual whose actions are willful and culpable. I assumed you could follow this with my shorthand of "human nature." It is, after all, natural for some to pursue wrongful actions.

At no point did I say one could not be blamed. I have clearly explored the notion of culpability. It seems I overestimated your reading comprehension.

Perhaps I should not expect as much from a person who is on his third or fourth forum account.

[Raavak]

i like the puppet on the right over the puppet on the left

but idk do i want to vote for fascism or communism???
Fascism and communism both utilize socialist-based economies. I vote for capitalism.

[Slave]

Is it ok to have a man-crush on Biden?

[Lucky]

Fascism and communism both utilize socialist-based economies. I vote for capitalism.

That's not a choice in America (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=53515&)

[Frieza_Prexus]

That's not a choice in America

I find the notion that we, as citizens, are lacking in meaningful choice to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Elections clearly have consequences, and to take such a defeatist view is self-destructive.

Battles are won by armies acting in concert. If an individual trooper despairs and refuses to fire his weapon, he will not aid his side. While it is true that battle may be won without him, he would otherwise add his overall contribution to the aggregate.

You can see demonstrable results of this struggle in every area of your life. The Supreme Court is the most striking example. Do you believe that the justices appointed by each party are interchangeable with one another?

At the end of the day, bemoaning a lack of choice does nothing to increase your access to choice. If anything, despair can be infectious.

[Raavak]

scary

[Lucky]

Well personally I think elections are pointless as I don't need a 'leader' telling me wutdo. Don't need 'lawmakers' playing Moses. But as we are sheep animals, it doesn't matter that much which wolf you pick.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Well personally I think elections are pointless as I don't need a 'leader' telling me wutdo. Don't need 'lawmakers' playing Moses. But as we are sheep animals, it doesn't matter that much which wolf you pick.

Are you suggesting that a governmental framework should not exist and that self-regulation, in all aspects, would lead to a freer and more prosperous society?

[Lucky]

You can have a republic without a central leader like the Icelandic Commonwealth of yore, but now we're getting into a lot of bullshit theory. I'm a firm believer in social darwinism via anarchy. Freedom and prosperity are secondary. Could call it anarcho-totalitarianism if you wanted.

All I know is that we are not freer or more prosperous with 'leaders' appropriating our tax funds to bombing 3rd world countries, legislating more tyranny than even Hitler, and bailing out bankrupt financial institutions (not capitalist at all, more corporate communism)

[Reiker000]

legislating more tyranny than even Hitler

legislating more tyranny than even Hitler

legislating more tyranny than even Hitler

legislating more tyranny than even Hitler

legislating more tyranny than even Hitler

legislating more tyranny than even Hitler

Obama is worse than Hitler

[Lucky]

Definitely worse

[Lexical]

now we're getting into a lot of bullshit theory. I'm a firm believer in social darwinism...

I lolled. :rolleyes:

[Lucky]

You will find that many members of the elite such as myself are eugenicists. Culling the unwanteds is the only sustainable path.

[Frieza_Prexus]

You will find that many members of the elite such as myself are eugenicists. Culling the unwanteds is the only sustainable path.

And THIS is why I come to the internet.

[Lexical]

You will find that many members of the elite such as myself are eugenicists. Culling the unwanteds is the only sustainable path.

like Hitler?

[Alawen]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/299448_441110239288387_1573555194_n.jpg

Actually, I'm an artist.

[Lucky]

like Hitler?

Just cuz all a's are b's doesnt mean all b's are c's.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_Hitlerum

[Lexical]

A wise man once said "everyone is a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its life thinking it's an idiot."

[Reiker000]

Need to just open next debate w/

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[Clark]

Are you suggesting that a governmental framework should not exist and that self-regulation, in all aspects, would lead to a freer and more prosperous society?

I hope he isn't! :D