Bug: Mana Sieve should not affect bards

[Dagwulf]

Currently on Red 99, an enchanter can cast Mana Sieve on a bard, and it takes the bard's mana.

This is incorrect to classic EQ:

A bard's mana is unaffected by any spell effects which regen or deplete mana.

On Rallos Zek, bard's were considered "mana batteries" because an enchanter could cast mana sieve on them, get the mana he normally would, but the bard would not lose any mana.


I haven't spent an immense amount of time digging up proof, but here are a few bits to back-up my claim:

Bard mana regeneration can only increase or decrease as a result of two possible factors:
worn mana regen and
Out of combat regeneration
As a consequence of the above, bards are unaffected by the mana-influencing components of all buffs, debuffs, and other spells and abilities that regenerate or drain mana. Any other effects of the ability in question will still apply to the bard.
For example, if a debuff reduces hit points by 800 per tick and mana by 400 per tick, the bard will suffer the 800 points of damage each tick but not lose any mana.
This also means that bard mana regeneration is not increased by the bard's own songs that assist with mana regeneration. These songs are intended to benefit other, non-bard party members. However, if such a song also has an HP regen component to it, the bard will benefit from that part of it.
Source: http://everquest.wikia.com/wiki/Bard

In fact bard are immune to ALL mana effect that include : regen by spell/song and DRAIN !
Source: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=4401

[Dagwulf]

New info:

NPC mana-sieves are also incorrectly affecting bards:

Quag Maelstrom in OOT is able to drain a bard's mana... this is incorrect to classic.


Here is a quote from a classic EQ spoiler involving this NPC:

This horn is dropped off of Quag Maelstrom. He is a level 45 mob in Ocean of Tears, only one zone away from Vedico. The following information was cited by an anonymous person on Illia's Beastiary. He's generally on the Seafury Cyclops island around 1000, -6000. He conned red to me at 42 and he casts drain mana a lot, (which curiously did not appear to lower my bardic mana bar at all).
Source: http://eqthieves.com/class-bard-epic10.htm

[Nirgon]

Here's some news:

On RZ you could drain a pure melee with it for the longest time too, provided they were in level range. If not? Had to duel.

Can't confirm if a bard did or didn't lose mana on that though from memory.

[Dagwulf]

On RZ you could drain a pure melee with it for the longest time too, provided they were in level range. If not? Had to duel.

I don't recall this. If true, I'm sure it was changed before velious as I am certain that pure melee were invalid targets for the spell (as they had no mana). This is what made bards the perfect target as they met the requirements of the spell (having mana) but weren't affected by the drain effect.

[MC Epic]

Bump for fix

[Jygia]

Bards were losing mana from theft of thought for the first 3-4 months into Kunark before it got fixed. Also like Nirgon wrote, you could use Theft of thought on pure melee probably until the end of Kunark, early Velious.

[Tune]

bump

[Nirgon]

Should also be valid on blue that you can duel a pure melee and mana drain him methinks.

Maybe that would get this moved along faster? 8]

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Mana sieve drains mana.

Theft of thought transfers to the caster.

You can currently ToT a bard for mana but can't do it on pure melee

[derpcake]

Effects that drain mana (ToT, quag maelstrom, every other one in game) or effects that restore mana (clarity, manasong, twitch) have never worked on bards.

Bards have their innate regen and later get some more manaregen through AA.

It has been this way since classic until I quit in 2011. I am 100% positive it has not changed meanwhile.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/Fading_Memories.php

Enchanters can upgrade their CC via:

1 Increased mana pool (longer periods of hero-level activity)
2 Increased mana regen (increased number of mobs mezzed/hour)
3 Shortened cast time (only on some spells, faster lockdown rate)
4 Increased duration (multiplies increased mana regen, increases max number of mobs controllable)
5 Increased range (earlier mez casts on incoming mobs, increased safety from distance)
6 Increased hp/ac (less risk from failed mez attempts)

All of these are good things. A fully equipped enchanter should be better at CC than a naked enchanter.

None of the above applies to bards. Even increased hp/ac doesn't help a bard CC, because it's usually the cleric that is tanking if the bard fails, not the bard. A naked bard and a fully equipped bard are almost identical in CC power.

What OP said pretty much :)

[derpcake]

I miss Thott :(

[Tune]

i miss my mana

can we fix plz

[Haynar]

Getting a grasp on this. Will try to start doing some pvp fixes mixed in with other stuff.

So for bards, all mana drain spells should not drain mana. Whether its npc or pc casting on them? ToT should replenish enc, but not drain bard?

H

[Colgate]

i'm not sure about NPCs, but i know it is classic for a PC enchanter to gain mana from theft of thought while the bard loses none

p.s. pras

[derpcake]

Getting a grasp on this. Will try to start doing some pvp fixes mixed in with other stuff.

So for bards, all mana drain spells should not drain mana. Whether its npc or pc casting on them? ToT should replenish enc, but not drain bard?

H

Sums it up nicely.

[Haynar]

Fixed pending update.

H

[Dullah]

Here's some news:

On RZ you could drain a pure melee with it for the longest time too, provided they were in level range. If not? Had to duel.

Can't confirm if a bard did or didn't lose mana on that though from memory.

Yep. Enchanters always tapped classes without mana in groups. Dunno bout the bard thing but u could tap anyone and get mana.

Could actually use this as evidence that lifetaps don't work properly here. Though you didn't actually do full tap dmg in pvp, you still got the full hp back. The value your target was reduced didn't determine what you got back.

[Mac Drettj]

Interesting point comparing mana tapping someone w 0 mana for full return and life taps heal.

[Dullah]

Point being, there was no direct correlation between who or what you were tapping and what you got in return. Maybe not a direct parallel, but the fact that pvp code reduced the damage was irrelevant to the beneficial effect the spell had on the caster.

[Nirgon]

The tap should hit the bard but I don't know what should happen from there. I am completely clueless on that one.

[Dullah]

Tap should hit everyone and +mana the enchanter.

Theft of Thought will no longer give mana when cast on PC classes that do not have mana (in PvP or in a duel).

Not changed till luclin.

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20020508.html

[Tune]

Fixed pending update.

H

but u can still tap bards...

[Tune]

did this get fixed yet?

[Crazycloud]

nope still broke as of today

[Osyruz]

Mana drain effects are STILL taking bards mana as of 3/29/15, thought this was fixed?:confused:

[worch]

According to Dec 1st patch notes,

Haynar: Mana drain spells will no longer drain bard mana.



However, enchanters are still able to drain my bard's mana. This was observed from the bard's perspective as losing mana. The enchanter said he was using Theft of Thought, Torment of Argli, and Lagarn's Lamentation to drain mana.

Haynar's fix appears to have not made it in to the Dec 1st patch.

[Qtip]

According to Dec 1st patch notes,

Haynar: Mana drain spells will no longer drain bard mana.



However, enchanters are still able to drain my bard's mana. This was observed from the bard's perspective as losing mana. The enchanter said he was using Theft of Thought, Torment of Argli, and Lagarn's Lamentation to drain mana.

Haynar's fix appears to have not made it in to the Dec 1st patch.

This is wrong. Enchanter should be able to drain any class, even pure melee. See the post I made in bug forums. May 8 2002 bug post fixes this, which is after luclin is released.

[worch]

This is wrong. Enchanter should be able to drain any class, even pure melee. See the post I made in bug forums. May 8 2002 bug post fixes this, which is after luclin is released.

From your post in bug forums:
May 8, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------

** Spells **

- Theft of Thought will no longer give mana when cast on PC classes*
that do not have mana (in PvP or in a duel)


Your post concerns the enchanter gaining mana from Theft of Thought.



Haynar: Mana drain spells will no longer drain bard mana.

However, enchanters are still able to drain my bard's mana.

My observation and this thread is about bards losing mana from spells that drain mana. These two are separate issues concerning the similar types of spell effects.

[Qtip]

Ok.... I will see my way out of this thread. Good day.

[Osyruz]

Bump, again, is anyone bothering to even look into this?

[Osyruz]

Getting a grasp on this. Will try to start doing some pvp fixes mixed in with other stuff.

So for bards, all mana drain spells should not drain mana. Whether its npc or pc casting on them? ToT should replenish enc, but not drain bard?

H

Fixed pending update.

H

Bards are STILL having their mana drained by these spells, any chance on actually fixing this?
*Edit* The fixed pending update was from 08-03-2014, seems like a long time to wait for a pending update.

[Tune]

still broken looooll

plz fix so i don't have to listen to speed cry all day