Enchanter animations, when are they preferred over charmed mobs?

[Safon]

Enchanters have always impressed me with the havoc they can cause with charmed mobs, and it occurs to me I haven't even seen an animation in ages.

What are they for? They can be called off like charmed mobs can nor do they have the hp/dps

[Handull]

Can be used in some fights where charming isnt possible but an AoE will gain agro (certain fights in sky, etc).

Might have some other pro uses, but they are fairly useless

[Elements]

They can also provide a touch of dps on dragon encounters where aoe is present.

[goshozal]

They're mostly useless, given how strong charms are. I only use mine when farming targets that are so low that the pet hits harder than a charmed mob would. They are safer too, obviously, so if you're solo they can reduce your chance of death. Otherwise for minor dps in an aoe fight like others said.

This is why I scoff at paying 5k+ for the 55 animation. Maybe someday when I am too rich to care...

Maksim

[A1551]

levels 1-11 (you get charm at 12 :D)

The last time I bought a stack of tiny daggers it was sometime around level 18-20, and now at level 59 I still have something like 6 left from the same stack. However the very few times I've used the pet I was happy to have it. I think the majority got used farming shadowed men for essences. One time I used it to kill a named I was farming because it was more powerful than the surrounding charmable targets.

Not me personally, but back when I played a paladin in the mid 30's I duoed with a chanter who used it on the yetis in dreadlands because he was too low to reliably charm anything in zone. Of course if it were me now I'd just level somewhere else until I could!

Finally, I have summoned it once or twice on raid targets where there was nothing to charm because why not.

-Propo Fol

[Phinger]

You get the most bang for your buck with them farming high profit items with mid/low level mobs. The price on the 55 one is high, definitely, but if you use it to easily farm something worth 6-9k then there's value to be had.

[Splorf22]

The animation isn't totally worthless. When I farm the king I usually use an animation on the reavers because I'm too lazy to pull a charmed pet out of the nearby room. Alternatively, I have killed mobs up to L54 just by slowing and bedlam tanking with the RoA. I also did this for the last 10% of the cliff golem after I foolishly let the foreman die.

[Yinikren]

Honestly, the midlevel pets are tough to solo with (too much mana expenditure attempting to keep them at a respectable hp level) but 39 was amazing. The 39+ pets got npc regen tables.... They could outregen slowed dark blue mobs in combat. Think I was soloing the front of CoM at that point.

You eat 50% of the exp loss... But it was mindless, safe, risk free exp.

[Vladesch]

You don't want a charmed pet in situations where you are going to be very busy mezzing and your enchanter isn't "strong" enough to deal with it. When I was playing live I used to charm a pet in many situations, but then I was well geared enough and had the runes etc to deal with it.

If I were a level 50 enchanter doing karnors castle with the level of gear and spells we have on this server I would avoid charming a pet because it's just pushing my luck a bit much. Things can get hairy enough in there with just the group.

On this server you also have to consider the possibility of the pet outdamaging the group and eating xp.

Also you can't command your animation to attack. That is an aa we will never get. So they are really not any use in groups. (My enchanter on live used to use the animation a lot since I could command it. A high level animation fully buffed can really dish out the damage)

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I would rather not be a source of crisis in my grp because of a lost pet at the wrong moment. Sure, it is fun, but you can wipe thr group if you get an early break at the wrong time. Is it worth it? No. It is purely a choice, by an enchanter who wants to be able to /flex over their dps output.

Soloing is another matter.

But the notion that the "best" enchanters charm is basically the view of enchanters who don;t much care being "just" a utility and cc class, and feel their dps is what is making the group super-awesome. They wish they were mages.

I always recommend eq2 for them. In eq2, enchanters top parses easily. Be careful what you wish for.

[Splorf22]

Sadre, that is some serious jelly rage there.

[Yinikren]

Yeah, someone seems salty. There's two misconceptions I'd like to point out.

1.) pets will never eat exp grouped, to my knowledge.

2.) of course charming a skeletal guardian that hits for 140 is going to be a retarded idea, but in KC specifically, I love charming curates. They are level 39ish, CH themselves when they get low hp and charm breaks (ripostes, offtanking a moment, etc) only hit for 96ish and, best of all, they have a mana pool. I can keep one charmed for 10 minutes, haste it and give it weps, and when charm breaks, tap it for free mana.

Imo, if you are in a position to charm and can help the group by doing so, you're aren't playing to the best of your ability by negligently ignoring it.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

jealous? no, realistic. I have never been in a guild prior to making charm easier, where good groups wanted chanters to charm. It was viewed as something a chanter who mainly soloed when caught in the unfamiliar envirnoment of being... an enchanter in a well-rounded group.

Look, soloing is fun. Having an an enchanter alt is fun. Pretending you are not an enchanter is fun. But I'm an enchanter.

The Queen herself once rolled a character on Quellious, just to say she had the privilege of grouping with me.

You are mistaking jealousy for sheer diva arrogance. My way is best; charmers are not actually enchanters. They are soloers who get bored too easy to group properly. No problem with that. That's why they made the game easier, just for you guys.

[Splorf22]

You are mistaking jealousy for sheer diva arrogance.

Somehow I don't think so. But you can tell yourself whatever you want.

P.S. I tried out a chef group for kicks since I missed grouping after raiding/farming mostly on Loraen. I was able to substantially slow/stun most mobs while still charming. Theft of Thought FTW :D

[Qadosx]

You can use the animation in exp groups when you don't feel like maintaining a charm pet, or when your healer is derpy. The invis ring from loio is handy if your pet ever gets feared for the insta pet dismiss.

You can also plevel on lower level content with animations, dismissing pets before the intended xp recipient slays the mob. This works best in areas with casters so you can maintain mana with theft of thought.

When camping the crypt caretaker at Kunark launch I found using the 55 pet spell the safest way to farm for the rod of annihilation. Camping the staircase in the crypt you would only ever have to fight the one mob, and although the blob could summon, it was mezable and slowable. Use memory blur after each pet reagros, and with decent enough mana you will outlast the 12k hp mob. Using a charm pet was too risky in this area, with a locked door and plenty of adds between you and the zone out.

They can also provide a touch of dps on dragon encounters where aoe is present.

You would probably be best served not using an animation in Skyfire or EJ, as your pet will bring back plenty of friends when that max duration fear wears off, if you do want those few seconds of dps, you could dismiss the pet when the first fear hits.

Any time there is no fear though, animations would often rank on the parsed fights throughout early Kunark.

[A1551]

Sadre, that is some serious jelly rage there.

^

Or trolling us knowing we'd all spend time explaining the essentially undeniable benefits of charming in groups. I almost fell for it!

-Propo Fol

[Vladesch]

1.) pets will never eat exp grouped, to my knowledge.

If they out damage the rest of the group they eat the same % xp as when you are soloing. It's the same principle. When you are soloing the rest of the group=you.
I will add a slight disclaimer that I haven't tested this, but this is how I understood posts made about this subject before.

Charming mobs just comes down to how safe it is. Any decent enchanter will have a good idea whether he can handle random charm breaks at a particular camp.

[Striiker]

I used an animation for soloing up to the lvl 39 charm spell. Charm at lower levels was broken when compared to how live was in 99/2000 and I do not know if this was fixed yet.. Soloing was slower with the animation and I had to make some changes to methodology but it worked well. (my preference was always to group so soloing was for nights when I was on for an hour at most)..

At high level, the animation is limited in usefulness but they are still broken out for fights with some planar mobs and dragons etc. which can agro via an AoE (as others have pointed out).

[Yinikren]

Unless they fixed it again, I was under the impression that being in a group (regardless of if the rest of the group is in zone) nullified pets eating exp. Me and a necro regularly charm and camp HS and the exp is phenomenal, although of course my evidence is anecdotal.

[A1551]

I used an animation for soloing up to the lvl 39 charm spell. Charm at lower levels was broken when compared to how live was in 99/2000 and I do not know if this was fixed yet

I was charming ghouls in unrest around 17-18 and with no difficulties -- so I'd say its been fixed sometime in recent history. Dunno how long ago you're talking but I'm guessing a while :)

Unless they fixed it again, I was under the impression that being in a group (regardless of if they rest of the group is in zone) nullified pets eating exp. Me and a necro regularly charm and camp HS and the exp is phenomenal, although of course my evidence is anecdotal.

This is my understanding as well from massive amounts of duoing with a cleric where my pet was doing 100% of the damage. Also basically anecdotal however. I'm going to test this empirically and solve it one way or another, hopefully tonight, cuz I'm tired of seeing this same discussion over and over without a legit answer!

-Propo Fol

[Splorf22]

He's talking about before the Great Charm Nerf (about 1.5 years ago now) that Kanras did just after Kunark came out.

Also I <3 people who do experiments!

[A1551]

Experiment complete :P

So 100% confirmed there is no experience penalty in groups. Thanks to options the necro for assistance, and Hyasinth for heroing my lvl 1 pet. We both made brand new level ones (enchanters cuz apparently lvl 1 mages dont get pets who knew!?)

We did a few kills with him (no pet) killing level one mobs grouped with me, with him doing 100% of damage -- 5 or 6% per kill (due to rounding on duxaui display). Then we had my chanter animation solo some stuff doing 100% damage -- I did zero damage by finding decaying skellies who would just attack me and let pet do rest. Also got either 5 or 6% exp per kill. That's pretty much it right there -- grouped exp penalties for pets do not exist, even if pet does 100% of the damage. I also tried a few times just doing one hit on mob and letting pet do rest for sake of thoroughness -- 5 or 6% per kill.

Finally, I degrouped and tried soloing just to confirm the solo penalty is 50%, as sometimes Ive been told things like "it's actually 75% not 50%." Being solo and letting pet do 100% of damage -- once again netted me either 5 or 6% per kill. This makes perfect sense, as instead of splitting the exp with Options lvl 1 I was splitting it with my pet. Next, I dumped my pet and soloed some level ones -- lo and behold exactly 11% per kill.

To summarize -- there is no pet exp penalty in groups in any way, shape or form, even if pet does 100% of the damage.

-Propo Fol

[Servellious]

Chanter doesn't t want to charm? That's like a shaman not using canni. Just silly

[Vladesch]

Although I said that pets handle grouping the same as solo, ie if they outdamage the rest of the group then there is a penalty...
That is just what I have heard posted before.
I'm not totally convinced there is actually a penalty for being outdamaged by your pet. After much soloing using minimal spells myself (because I thought we got full xp for doing *any* damage) I seemed to be getting quite good xp anyway.

The zone modifiers are another possible myth. I did lots of soloing in loio with my druid (using a charmed pet doing over 95% of the damage) and the xp per kill was fine.

I wouldn't think the pet's proportion of xp is part of the data files anyway, so I am somewhat skeptical about the ability of this server to have specific rules. If they could change the program code then the sit-meditate thing would have been fixed.

[koros]

No offense Vlad, but every single thing you just posted is incorrect.

[rekreant]

Although I said that pets handle grouping the same as solo, ie if they outdamage the rest of the group then there is a penalty...
That is just what I have heard posted before.
I'm not totally convinced there is actually a penalty for being outdamaged by your pet. After much soloing using minimal spells myself (because I thought we got full xp for doing *any* damage) I seemed to be getting quite good xp anyway.

The zone modifiers are another possible myth. I did lots of soloing in loio with my druid (using a charmed pet doing over 95% of the damage) and the xp per kill was fine.

I wouldn't think the pet's proportion of xp is part of the data files anyway, so I am somewhat skeptical about the ability of this server to have specific rules. If they could change the program code then the sit-meditate thing would have been fixed.

You sound like some Suit who watched a power point trying to tell people who have played on this server since its inception how the server works. Also your methods for determining fact or fiction seem to be more along the lines of "I got good xp anyway"... If you are a necro its quite easy. find mobs that con white. Kill with pet, record change in xp. Kill without pet, do the same, then compare. It is half xp since Im pretty sure you wont actually look at your xp bar.

[goshozal]

I like you, Propo. Anyone who answers questions by experiments over gut feelings is A+ in my book.

Also, isn't Hyasinth a doll? She was there for me on both the hard camps for my epic.

Maksim

[Vermicelli]

an enchanter in a well-rounded group

Making a group well-rounded does not necessarily mean dumbing down a part of the group. If you find it difficult to keep mobs charmed, bump your CHA. If you find it difficult to keep enough mana for buffs in addition to charming, use more Theft of Thought. If you find it difficult to survive charm breaks, cast Rune and memorize your Level 4 mez to cast after you Color Stun. Anything less is letting your team down =)

[A1551]

I like you, Propo. Anyone who answers questions by experiments over gut feelings is A+ in my book.

Also, isn't Hyasinth a doll? She was there for me on both the hard camps for my epic.

Maksim

appreciate it -- I've heard different people swear there is and isn't a pet exp penalty in groups with absolute confidence so many times I just wanted to know for sure which it was ;)

And she sure is she ran all the way back to Neriak to buff the pet and all I would tell her was that it was for "very important science"

-Propo Fol

[fishingme]

Made an enchanter here once, leveled him to 60. Never ever noticed charm pet taking any xp while it did 100% of the damage. Unsure if it has changed in the past 8months or so however.

[August]

Made an enchanter here once, leveled him to 60. Never ever noticed charm pet taking any xp while it did 100% of the damage. Unsure if it has changed in the past 8months or so however.

This is 'anecdotal' but I can assure you that if you dont do 50% the pet takes half.

I have been charming from 44-51 on bloodgills in loio and my setup is thus:

Charm a bloodgill. Kill the other bloodgill (usually nuke once, or maybe not at all - never 50% of the dmg). Get exp.

Hope that the bloodgill i had charmed is <20% - Invis, and then nuke it.

The second bloodgill always gives me moveable exp / more exp in my bar than the second, purely because there was no pet to eat it. I have changed my strategy (nuke twice) and I get double the experience on the first mob as well, but then I usually need to find more mobs to kill my pet again. It's a vicious cycle.

[A1551]

The second bloodgill always gives me moveable exp / more exp in my bar than the second, purely because there was no pet to eat it. I have changed my strategy (nuke twice) and I get double the experience on the first mob as well, but then I usually need to find more mobs to kill my pet again. It's a vicious cycle.

Easy way around this is to break your pet when both are low, kill pet, and then kill the other mob. Results in 100% exp for both kills.

-Propo Fol

[fishingme]

This is 'anecdotal' but I can assure you that if you dont do 50% the pet takes half.

I have been charming from 44-51 on bloodgills in loio and my setup is thus:

Charm a bloodgill. Kill the other bloodgill (usually nuke once, or maybe not at all - never 50% of the dmg). Get exp.

Hope that the bloodgill i had charmed is <20% - Invis, and then nuke it.

The second bloodgill always gives me moveable exp / more exp in my bar than the second, purely because there was no pet to eat it. I have changed my strategy (nuke twice) and I get double the experience on the first mob as well, but then I usually need to find more mobs to kill my pet again. It's a vicious cycle.

No, it's not anecdotal really. Especially going from lvl 1 to 60 with always having my XP bar up with screen shots.

[Qadosx]

Charm a bloodgill. Kill the other bloodgill (usually nuke once, or maybe not at all - never 50% of the dmg). Get exp.

Hope that the bloodgill i had charmed is <20% - Invis, and then nuke it.

The second bloodgill always gives me moveable exp / more exp in my bar than the second, purely because there was no pet to eat it. I have changed my strategy (nuke twice) and I get double the experience on the first mob as well, but then I usually need to find more mobs to kill my pet again. It's a vicious cycle.

Try this:
Get a Goblin Gazughi Ring (http://wiki.project1999.org/Goblin_Gazughi_Ring) and use it to break charms.
Use Cajoling Whispers, less mana and you do not need the charm to last so long.
Make a macro /pet back /pet attack /pet back /pet attack
Use the level 4 mesmerize after breaking pets to avoid a round of melee from unrooted pets or to force broken pets to flee by mezing rooted adds.

Charm a bloodgill. Agro a bunch of bloodgills with your pet, get them stacked up with your macro, root them with pe, start a timer for three minutes.
Once you got that rooted, if your pet is still alive agro more bloodgills, stack them on the previous stack, root them with pe, start a timer for three minutes.
By now your pet should be getting low on life, break charm when its a nuke from death and get that xp. You now have a stack of mobs to kill, find whatevers highest hp in the stack and charm that. Rinse repeat, remember to keep up with your roots. This works exceptionally well while you can still use Cajoling Whispers in areas you can also use theft of thought to clear lots of mobs with no downtime.

[Autotune]

Try this:
Get a Goblin Gazughi Ring (http://wiki.project1999.org/Goblin_Gazughi_Ring) and use it to break charms.
Use Cajoling Whispers, less mana and you do not need the charm to last so long.
Make a macro /pet back /pet attack /pet back /pet attack
Use the level 4 mesmerize after breaking pets to avoid a round of melee from unrooted pets or to force broken pets to flee by mezing rooted adds.

Charm a bloodgill. Agro a bunch of bloodgills with your pet, get them stacked up with your macro, root them with pe, start a timer for three minutes.
Once you got that rooted, if your pet is still alive agro more bloodgills, stack them on the previous stack, root them with pe, start a timer for three minutes.
By now your pet should be getting low on life, break charm when its a nuke from death and get that xp. You now have a stack of mobs to kill, find whatevers highest hp in the stack and charm that. Rinse repeat, remember to keep up with your roots. This works exceptionally well while you can still use Cajoling Whispers in areas you can also use theft of thought to clear lots of mobs with no downtime.

Master Enchanter droppin the knowledge bomb.

P.S. I miss you broseph

[A1551]

Edit: ooops

[Tecmos Deception]

Try this:
Get a Goblin Gazughi Ring (http://wiki.project1999.org/Goblin_Gazughi_Ring) and use it to break charms.
Use Cajoling Whispers, less mana and you do not need the charm to last so long.
Make a macro /pet back /pet attack /pet back /pet attack
Use the level 4 mesmerize after breaking pets to avoid a round of melee from unrooted pets or to force broken pets to flee by mezing rooted adds.

Charm a bloodgill. Agro a bunch of bloodgills with your pet, get them stacked up with your macro, root them with pe, start a timer for three minutes.
Once you got that rooted, if your pet is still alive agro more bloodgills, stack them on the previous stack, root them with pe, start a timer for three minutes.
By now your pet should be getting low on life, break charm when its a nuke from death and get that xp. You now have a stack of mobs to kill, find whatevers highest hp in the stack and charm that. Rinse repeat, remember to keep up with your roots.

I am skeptical.

edit - skeptical of this working at all, let alone well, at the level where you want to be in LOIO. I didn't even have PE until I'd already made like 5 levels in LOIO. And this method is effective, but it doesn't even last forever in a zone like HS, at 55+, where you have c2 and tot and pe/fetter. I'd certainly be impressed if you felt like frapsing yourself doing this with the 8+ mob pulls that your post makes it sound like you did.