Starting a warrior

[bcaldwe0]

Hey all, just started project1999 and its awesome. From what I hear there aren't enough tanks in game and I am interested in helping fill that gap by starting a warrior. I have also heard that Warriors are pretty hard to play without decent gear. I don't have a huge amount of time to invest in gearing my warrior. I am hoping maybe somebody will be willing to help me out with getting some gear or providing advice on how and where to get gear thats not extremely difficult to get at the low-mid level range. Thanks

[YendorLootmonkey]

In my opinion, unless you're looking to be a raid tank, in which case your guild will make sure you're geared for that (but the road to leveling up to that point will be rough on you due to lack of aggro ability), you'll have an easier time in XP groups tanking as a knight class (pally or sk).

[President]

Hey all, just started project1999 and its awesome. From what I hear there aren't enough tanks in game and I am interested in helping fill that gap by starting a warrior. I have also heard that Warriors are pretty hard to play without decent gear. I don't have a huge amount of time to invest in gearing my warrior. I am hoping maybe somebody will be willing to help me out with getting some gear or providing advice on how and where to get gear thats not extremely difficult to get at the low-mid level range. Thanks

It should be pretty easy for you to pick up bronze armor for cheap or free from higher level people. You will want to work on buying two obsidian shards which will help with your tanking. They run for 200-500pp per depending on whose selling them.

[Soft]

Hey all, just started project1999 and its awesome. From what I hear there aren't enough tanks in game and I am interested in helping fill that gap by starting a warrior. I have also heard that Warriors are pretty hard to play without decent gear. I don't have a huge amount of time to invest in gearing my warrior. I am hoping maybe somebody will be willing to help me out with getting some gear or providing advice on how and where to get gear thats not extremely difficult to get at the low-mid level range. Thanks

Item's of note for younger warriors.

Spiked Collar http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=1212

Purity Belt http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=925

Rusty Spiked Shoulderpads http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=1012

Jagged Bands http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=1665

Gnoll Hide Lariats http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2665 (cheapest pp for threat at 25)

Dented Brass Mask http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=1868

These are just a few good examples, there is a great plate resource thread (for sks but works for warriors) on the drop down guide accessible through the library.

Also worth noting, you may have a bit of trouble with aggro early on, but stick with the warrior in kunark and velious you will be very happy with him/her

[Taluvill]

Gnoll Hide Lariats http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2665 (cheapest pp for threat at 25)

Best aggro weps next to yaks tbh. Quite cheap to purchase as well.

[Scrubby McGee]

Also, Don't buy into the not enough tanks line. All this weekend, it seems that the limiting factor for grouping was healers.

I have both a tank and a healer and I always not only get invited to a group faster, but also find that they are easier to make and maintain on my healer than on my tank.

[mitic]

2 stun whips and youll never lose aggro = makes groups happy

after that -> 2yaks as soon u can afford

besides that, sta & dex gear

disregard str, u arent supposed to do dmg

[bcaldwe0]

Ty for the info guess ill work to get a couple of gnoll hide lariats first and bronze armour

[Phallax]

Lariats are extremely easy to come by, can usually get a pair for 10-25pp(each) I farm them for pet fodder and usually get them rather quickly. Just sit in EC /auc WTB Gnoll Hide Lariat, youl leither get a good deal or possibly free.

[Soft]

Ty for the info guess ill work to get a couple of gnoll hide lariats first and bronze armour

Feel free to add Softhard (24TH ENCH to your friends list, any help i can provide i will)

[gnomishfirework]

On my pally, I was able to make enough to have full bronze by 12.

You can do it with a warrior. Kill every skeleton you see and collect the bone chips. Same for spiders. Sell the silk and bonechips in stacks of 20.
HQ bear pelts sell for 8-10pp.

Just make sure you pick a good race =P Ogre, Barb, Troll, or Dwarf are the way to go! Otherwise you are just too damn heavy if you aren't a twink. I did half-elf warrior way back when (I allocated starting points to dex and agil and str too =/) I ended up making it to 60 though, so I was doing something right. I was in ok gear, but I would have had loads more hp as an ogre =/ I tanked Vindi three times, and died all three times =P Two times under 50, one of which at less than 10%. He died both those times though.

Warriors can hold aggro fine in groups after teens with ok weapons. The whips will work, or obsidian shards till SSOY.

Im gonna twink up a warrior soon. Hybrid penalty sucks hardcore. I might go back to my pally (rerolled wizard) after I cap out and get pre-planar gear. I love tanking, but I've been itching to do damage of late.

[Phil]

If you really want to make the best tank I'd roll either a pal or an SK.

I'm a rogue at level 39 now and all throughout my grouping experiences warriors have consistently been inferior at holding agro compared to those other two. They can get it done, but I typically have to slow my dps at numerous occasions. Whereas with a pal or SK tank I simply wait for the disease cloud/blind and then just go all out.

Also of note : I'm decently geared, but I'm not a twink. This is my first character.

Also, I've never grouped with a warrior that had dual SSoY. Whips and Shards just don't seem to get the job done sometimes though.

[mitic]

Also, I've never grouped with a warrior that had dual SSoY. Whips and Shards just don't seem to get the job done sometimes though.

people starting warriors going fully str/sta thinking they are MT + DPS is the problem here

proc weapons are the key. and for this they need DEX well above the 100+ mark.

just having whips or shards, or even yaks doesnt help at all if the warrior has150 STR and 90 DEX

so yes, in classic and the next 4 months to come knights are better tanks especialy if the warriors keep thinking they have to do dps too. knights have the luxury to go STR and actually do damage since they have the aggro tools in their spell books

the term "meatshield" has been invented for a reason, they have to take the hits and the aggro to be valuable for groups.

[vinx]

The hardest time for warrior is prolly between levels 10-25.
Just remember to use taunt "ONLY" when the mob turns on you, mashing the button does not accumulate agro.
Whips/shards should be your first goal for weps, you can also get a Obsidian FLamberge from SolA efreeti if you get a group down there. (same thing as shards except its a 2hs, and imo better then the shards) I used one from 24-50 :P
For solo as a warrior use a PGT or Axe of the SLayers, i love my AoTS, its saved me tons of hp solo'in stuffs.
Gear : bronze, then fill slots with fine plate and any crafted you quest/buy along the way.

[Omnimorph]

I'm starting a warrior too! :D

[Tseng]

If you really want to make the best tank I'd roll either a pal or an SK.

I'm a rogue at level 39 now and all throughout my grouping experiences warriors have consistently been inferior at holding agro compared to those other two. They can get it done, but I typically have to slow my dps at numerous occasions. Whereas with a pal or SK tank I simply wait for the disease cloud/blind and then just go all out.

Also of note : I'm decently geared, but I'm not a twink. This is my first character.

Also, I've never grouped with a warrior that had dual SSoY. Whips and Shards just don't seem to get the job done sometimes though.

Phil is a BOSS rogue. I'll vouch. Even though the Lakers lost.

[ukaking]

This is all good advice. Im a lvl 22 warrior and I've been having a good time/bad time in Uguk. Good times when we dont get trained. Bad times when we do. lol.
The run from Freeport is a long one.
My weapons are lacking and I need to stop in to EC tunnel and upgrade soon. I take pride in doing my best to take the hits and save the group when it gets ugly. So far so good.

[pickled_heretic]

I couldn't stand playing a warrior... auto attack, kick and taunt are your only three options at any given time; that makes it a class with an extremely low skill cap. Even though the 40% penalty is really pointless and stupid IMO it's still worth it just for the fact that you have more stuff to do in groups.

I rolled a shadowknight. My 2nd choice was a paladin (and I probably will make a paladin alt) and I love the utility I can bring in a group. I can invis and feign death which lets me sneak through dungeons and pull like a monk. I can snare (which is nice in many different situations, including dungeons), I can heal myself while dealing damage which is very nice for a tank, and aggro is very easy to hold. Outside, I can fear kite, which enabled me to solo sand giants at 33.

BTW if you're phil jackson, I've been opposite of you on mobs many a time; you're a real damage hose. Nice to see you on the forums.

[Weekapaug]

If you really want to make the best tank I'd roll either a pal or an SK.

I'm a rogue at level 39 now and all throughout my grouping experiences warriors have consistently been inferior at holding agro compared to those other two. They can get it done, but I typically have to slow my dps at numerous occasions. Whereas with a pal or SK tank I simply wait for the disease cloud/blind and then just go all out.

Also of note : I'm decently geared, but I'm not a twink. This is my first character.

Also, I've never grouped with a warrior that had dual SSoY. Whips and Shards just don't seem to get the job done sometimes though.

Not singling Phil out as I'm sure he is an excellent rogue, but herein lies the problem, and the problem has nothing to do with Warriors as a class. And this is coming from a "professional" rogue main of 5 years from PoP era thru about TBS (75 w/ approx 1k AA) who was previously a SK main during Kunark thru sometime in Luclin:

All of these DPS classes, Bards, slowing classes, etc. want to be able to push assist (or whatever their role calls for in a group) and go at it full sail from the moment the mob enters the room till the end, not have to wait to be called to assist, and not have to think about how to help with aggro control, because that would apparently be too much work for them. Basicly they get to be impatient and lazy with hybrid tanks, and don't with warriors, so somehow that makes warriors inferior tanks. And that is just wrong, despite apparent popular opinion here.

Aggro control is a GROUP EFFORT. AGGRO CONTROL IS A GROUP EFFORT. Repeat this to yourself a few times, because you will need to repeat it to people in your groups a lot. Read what Phil wrote above.....That he has to "slow his DPS" with warriors to maintain aggro control. And? I really don't see what the problem is. Healing classes have to judiciously decide when to apply heals for best aggro control and mana efficiency, don't they? Well, so do DPS classes. Better get used to it, because you will have to do this later, especially if you plan to raid. EverQuest is a game built around class interdependence, so I really don't see what the problem is with people having to actually think about what they are doing in a group. Somehow the playerbase of P99 has managed to get the impression that pulling aggro, when you are not the tank, is the tank's problem when in reality it is usually a problem of YOURS, not the tank's, if everyone is playing their class even remotely responsibly. Rogues get evade. Monks get FD. All dps classes can wait a round or two for aggro to be established before throwing the kitchen sink. It's really NOT that hard to work together in this game to make things work properly. It might be EASIER and faster to cut corners now, but that has nothing to do with warriors in the grand scheme of things.

If the enchanter is pulling aggro everytime you duly taunt a mob before breaking mez, then he needs to be reminded to use root and/or memblur at the end of his mezz cycle. If he doesn't, he is lazy. Same goes for slowing. This is CLASSIC EQ...Nobody even knew what slow was for back in the day and it was rarely even used. If a chanter or shaman is pulling aggro with slow because they are hitting the mob with it the second it hits the room, tell them to wait till further into a fight or not slow at all. If slow must be used, it probably means your healing in the group is lacking. Not the fault of the tank. You will also quickly notice which bards you want to group with and which ones you don't. There ARE good bards here who know how to let you have aggro when you are trying to get it, you just have to wade through the array of twinks to find them. If there is a bard in the group, he probably should be doing the pulling, in which case, if he's doing his job right, he should be pulling singles the majority of the time, obviating the need for mezzing, making the whole pulling aggro off of him after mezzing discussion moot. All healing classes have root, so if they are pulling aggro, tell them to stop being lazy and use it if they have to. Etc. Etc. Etc.

You will still get blamed for a lot of this, because people like doing things on ez-mode, but stick to your guns. Having a thick skin goes a long way when playing a warrior, as does finding a solid group of people to play with. As does having a soloable alt or two that you can play when you just need a break or feel like you are about to strangle someone, because you will have those days.

Bottom line is, aside from the lack of available proccing weapons at low levels and the fact that beg is broken on this server (which completely borks a tried and true method of ghetto taunting for warriors) there is absolutely nothing wrong with the warrior class. It is entirely part of the design of the game for paladins and SKs to be able to snap aggro from other classes, including warriors and (in the case of SKs especially) being able to give it back, while, in the long haul, warriors are indeed the superior tank. People just like to call hybrids "better" and the like because they want to be lazy now in classic EQ.

It helps to realize that it is this particular era of EQ that made the devs give them lots of love in Kunark and beyond in the form of making them necessary for certain mobs and for a lot of the best group situations. There's a REASON the "holy trinity" that came about in Kunark is a "WARRIOR, cleric, and enchanter." I don't see Paladin or SK in that list, do you? This same conversation could probably be had about shaman, also, really. Pre-kunark, they were pretty much backup healers, sow casters, and junk-buffers. After Kunark their slow, and enchanters', became a vital part of a group. Enchanters got the spotlight immediately because CC was still of value in a big way, but it wasn't long before the need for well played shaman were vividly apparent and is probably why, now, you have to deal with pulling slow aggro off of casters here in retro-classic, ironicly.

Same goes for warriors. Hybrid tanks do not get disciplines of consequence. Warriors do. When you are 55+ and have good gear, you will out-tank most paladins and sks in terms of mana efficiency for the group and you will do it without the limitation of needing mana. And because the cleric is saving mana by healing you instead of a hybrid, not having an enchanter in the group to cast one spell isn't such a big deal clearing the way for shaman and their superior slow, saving the cleric even more mana, making the enchanter even less needed and, by extension, caster dps less desirable. Rogues and monks benefit from this also...Not having a chanter to clarity the mage to for dps isn't such a big deal when you have unlimited manaless dps....people thought rogues were useless in classic era too, btw, but they got lots of love in the same ways that warriors did after classic.....No one exists in a vaccum in EQ and it all works in cycles. You will convert the same STA to more HPS than hybrids and will convert the same gear to higher AC. And your class specific gear is tuned up in that regard compared to that of hybrids. In the event that this server finds itself in Luclin down the road (although I don't think it will) you will have AA that tunes you up even farther compared to those classes. And if you plan to raid, wait and see what you will be tanking then and what they will be doing. You will be the tank of choice for big mobs hands-down, while they will be tanking the trash and filling other roles. I don't remember hybrid tanks really coming back into their own as the ideal group tanks while warriors remained raid tanks until after PoP was out, at earliest, but I'm probably a little fuzzy on that and I'm not aware that they ever did in raids. I played a SK main during late kunark and velious era and I can remmember discussions at the time just before Luclin came out, or during Luclin of how the uberest of SKs who were at the top of their game could actually handle tanking SOME raid targets under SOME circumstances. And it was a shock to everyone at the time. Why? Because that's warrior territory and it had been for some time. And I can remember spending a lot of time LFG because groups wanted warriors to tank for them, although in fairness, I think a lot of that was due to the group exp penalty that had become apparent at the time.

You just have to deal with levelling up through classic with all of these obstacles (laziness and misinformation being chief among them) now, is all. Out of the box, and in this era, you will have an EASIER time with a paladin or SK and less of an ulcer getting levelled up. Lets face it, during this current era, you really don't even need tanks....Robed casters can do pretty much everything better, faster, and more efficiently than a group with tanks and the support needed for them. If you want easy, skip a tank altogether and play a mage. Right now...It changes with Kunark. If you do choose to stick it out, you will find yourself in a very good place come Kunark and beyond, IMO.

Good luck to you.

[Phil]

Not singling Phil out as I'm sure he is an excellent rogue, but herein lies the problem, and the problem has nothing to do with Warriors as a class. And this is coming from a "professional" rogue main of 5 years from PoP era thru about TBS (75 w/ approx 1k AA) who was previously a SK main during Kunark thru sometime in Luclin:

All of these DPS classes, Bards, slowing classes, etc. want to be able to push assist (or whatever their role calls for in a group) and go at it full sail from the moment the mob enters the room till the end, not have to wait to be called to assist, and not have to think about how to help with aggro control, because that would apparently be too much work for them. Basicly they get to be impatient and lazy with hybrid tanks, and don't with warriors, so somehow that makes warriors inferior tanks. And that is just wrong, despite apparent popular opinion here.

Aggro control is a GROUP EFFORT. AGGRO CONTROL IS A GROUP EFFORT. Repeat this to yourself a few times, because you will need to repeat it to people in your groups a lot. Read what Phil wrote above.....That he has to "slow his DPS" with warriors to maintain aggro control. And? I really don't see what the problem is. Healing classes have to judiciously decide when to apply heals for best aggro control and mana efficiency, don't they? Well, so do DPS classes. Better get used to it, because you will have to do this later, especially if you plan to raid. EverQuest is a game built around class interdependence, so I really don't see what the problem is with people having to actually think about what they are doing in a group. Somehow the playerbase of P99 has managed to get the impression that pulling aggro, when you are not the tank, is the tank's problem when in reality it is usually a problem of YOURS, not the tank's, if everyone is playing their class even remotely responsibly. Rogues get evade. Monks get FD. All dps classes can wait a round or two for aggro to be established before throwing the kitchen sink. It's really NOT that hard to work together in this game to make things work properly. It might be EASIER and faster to cut corners now, but that has nothing to do with warriors in the grand scheme of things.

more wall of text

I didn't read all of this, but I think my original point still stands. I have to slow dps when I'm grouped with a warrior, but when I'm with an SK or paladin I just go all out. It's not a matter of me being impatient or lazy, it's a matter of me being able to do the most dps possible because the more I do the better off our group is. My sole job in a group is to do as much damage as possible without tanking. Part of me being able to accomplish this relies on the potency of our group's tank and not solely on how I time my dps/evade functions. Any given class can tank if given enough time to hold agro...what makes a good tank is needing as little amount of time possible on the mob to build that agro.

People pointed out that a lot of warriors perhaps don't gear themselves properly and this could be a big part of the problem. However, if warriors have to gimp their damage by stacking dex just to be able to hold agro, then doesn't this still make paladins and sks better tanks by being able to do more damage as well as hold agro?

Again this is only what I've found through the grouping stages of THIS game. Maybe warriors are better tanks for raid mobs? I don't know, I'm only level 39. Maybe they're better tanks in Kunark? I'm just talking about what I've experienced so far.

Also, thanks Tseng!! :D Go Lakers!!

[President]

As a half elf warrior with decent starting Dex I really never had much problems tanking once I got my hands on an Obsidian Shard. Even though I went from pretty much level 22-46 while using a shard in main hand and a non-proccing silvery war axe in the off hand, I almost never had trouble holding aggro until I was low 40's. Though, I also made it a point not to attempt fighting mobs much higher level than me. Now that I have SSoYx2 and FBSS, it is even easier. In-fact, in the planes, I will generally pull aggro off of SK's or Pally's going all out, UNLESS they get multiple spells off before I can get into fighting range. Even then, sometimes I will pull it off part way through the fight.

The problems I had with holding aggro existed when the DPS classes started attack before I had been able to do damage. As long as the DPS classes held of a couple seconds, I generally did not have trouble keeping it on my most of the fight. For melee classes they should be able to engage shortly after the warrior does and not have a problem. A spell caster can easily pull off a mob early on in the fight if they wish.

Also, while leveling up, I consistently had healers tell me a warrior tanking was much easier on their mana than SK/Pally.

The times I see when a SK/Pally will shine is when they are tanking dark red mobs. In this case, the warrior is at a serious disadvantage as they cannot taunt, their melee dps goes down, and the chance of proc resists is higher. Obviously an SK and Pally would do better in this area as they can constantly spam spells.

[Never_Rest99]

sk/bards/pally

tank better than a war 1-44 + gear

even with obsidian shards pre 44 and or ssoy post 37 they still have trouble from what ive seen

disease cloud is the best instant aggro in game, pallys with blind hold it well, and bards with snaresong and decent gear can hold it down if no dedicated tank

i hear nothing but complaints from warriors 1-49 they sucked in vanilla and dont get decent till kunark when they can really tank

[Weekapaug]

I didn't read all of this, but I think my original point still stands. I have to slow dps when I'm grouped with a warrior, but when I'm with an SK or paladin I just go all out. It's not a matter of me being impatient or lazy, it's a matter of me being able to do the most dps possible because the more I do the better off our group is. My sole job in a group is to do as much damage as possible without tanking. Any given class can tank if given enough time to hold agro...what makes a good tank is needing as little amount of time possible on the mob to build that agro.

People pointed out that a lot of warriors perhaps don't gear themselves properly and this could be a big part of the problem. However, if warriors have to gimp their damage by stacking dex just to be able to hold agro, then doesn't this still make paladins and sks better tanks by being able to do more damage as well as hold agro?

Again this is only what I've found through the grouping stages of the game. Maybe warriors are better tanks for raid mobs? I don't know, I'm only level 39.

I realize my original post is long, but there's no easy simple way to explain it really....I will try with this....

Example: Wizards can do the best and most efficient DPS by nuking from the start also, but they will pull aggro off of pretty much any tank. Healers having to heal them, or losing them to death, thus losing their DPS entirely and requiring even more mana for a rez is even more of a time and mana sink for the group than losing a fraction of their DPS if they had just exercized restraint from the beginning. Which is why they don't drop big nukes from the beginning. In a game that essentially boils down to mana, HPs and aggro, the same thing applies to any DPS class.

It comes down to this:

A) It goes without saying that aggro needs to be on the tank and stay on the tank. In the grand scheme of things, you having to wait a few rounds to start DPSing is less of a loss to the group overall than the consequences of pulling aggro off of the tank, getting yourself or others killed, needing a heal for yourself or others due to bouncing aggro, etc.

B) Post-classic (and probably now although it's not noticeable), clerics healing warriors are more efficient than clerics healing hybrid tanks, for the reasons I explained in my earlier post, but I will try again here.

--CH costs a constant amount of mana and takes a constant amount of time to cast, yet can heal up to (If memory serves) 7500 hps....Which means that in the scope of this server it will always truly be a complete heal...As far as I recall, Warriors didn't start topping that until Luclin or PoP at earliest. A warrior with the same build and same gear as a hybrid will have more HPs than that hybrid making the healing the warrior a more efficient target for the cleric to heal.

--Warriors convert AC on gear to worn AC more effectively than hybrids, so the same warrior in the same gear as a hybrid of the same build will have more AC than that hybrid, mitigating more damage, which is more efficient for the cleric also because for the same mob, CH has to be cast less often. And to top it off, warrior class specific gear has higher AC on it as well and, I think, more +HPs depending on era, widening that gap even further.

--If AA became a factor (which I dont think it will be here, but no one really knows for sure) all of the above would be moreso.

C) As for raiding post classic, while a separate topic altogether, Warriors are the ONLY main tanks for raids, with a few very rare notable exceptions. This is because of the disciplines they get, most notablly Defensive. It's worth mentioning in a group discussion, though, because those same disciplines that make them vital for tanking raid mobs, also makes them the tank of choice for tanking tough nameds in a group. Where your hybrid tank may be fine on the grind leading up to the named pop, once that named pops the warrior will be better able to deal with it and will be less of a drain on the cleric.

A + B + C = Warriors are the tank of choice in Kunark and, by extension, so are the measures required for dealing with how they generate aggro, which largely involves other classes having to work as hard not to pull aggro as they do pulling it.

It's really that simple. Again, aggro control is a GROUP effort. It's not about your DPS. It's about the whole group or getting things done efficiently. No one class or role has any reasonable expectation to throw the kitchen sink always every kill and expect other classes to pick up their slack. And it's not as if Warriors can't take and hold aggro at all, as some like to suggest....It just takes a bit more work on their part and takes a modicum of effort on the part of the group. That's all.

This current era we are in is 1/3 of the scope of this server, era-wise, and content-wise is probably 1/5th or 1/10th of it or less....Kunark and Velious have lots packed into them and they are a LOT harder than classic by a long shot. Just because SKs and Pallys can do it now in Classic without downsides doesn't mean that's where the game will be in 6 months. Might as well get used to it now and learn how to accomodate Warriors rather than telling people not to play them, because they are required later as are the tactics needed to work with them.

But look at the bright side....The same tuning post-classic that brought warriors to the forefront also brought rogues from relative obscurity to the top of the DPS pyramid. You, also, made a wise choice in classes for the long haul, even though right now robed casters, particularly mages, can out-dps you more effectively with one eye closed. I played a rogue main for years after PoP and would most definately be playing one now if I wasn't trying to get my GF up to speed on the game with more effective duos for that purpose. You are playing the most fun melee class in the game, IMO, and have a lot to look forward to for the same reasons warriors do.

[bcaldwe0]

Ok, very interesting conversation. I guess the theme here is that warriors are better if planning for long term. Pallys/sk is better now. that is alot to think about. Shamans also sound interesting hahahaha. I started a dwarf war and stated all 25 points to sta, should I reroll and add dex?

[President]

Ok, very interesting conversation. I guess the theme here is that warriors are better if planning for long term. Pallys/sk is better now. that is alot to think about. Shamans also sound interesting hahahaha. I started a dwarf war and stated all 25 points to sta, should I reroll and add dex?

One thing that was brought up in another thread is that once you start to get end game gear, the main stats for each class gets easy to max out with gear + buffs. Generally, STA/STR for warriors(Though, I honestly havent paid close enough attention to see how close my STA is maxed with buffs and nearly full indo). Dex is one that doesn't easily get maxed out and can be very useful for holding aggro. So, I am not going to tell you what to do, but take it into consideration.

Also take into consideration that leveling a SK or Pally takes quite a bit longer than a warrior due to the XP penalties.

[Weekapaug]

Ok, very interesting conversation. I guess the theme here is that warriors are better if planning for long term. Pallys/sk is better now. that is alot to think about. Shamans also sound interesting hahahaha. I started a dwarf war and stated all 25 points to sta, should I reroll and add dex?

When you get your warrior rolled how you want, or pally or sk for that matter if you change your mind, post your char name here or PM me....I may have some old gear for you to help you get started.

[gnomishfirework]

I realize my original post is long, but there's no easy simple way to explain it really....I will try with this....



His point wasn't that warriors not holding aggro is their fault, it is that he can go all out with an SK or Pally, so for grouping situations you can have a more efficient group with an SK or Pally tank.

Still, if someone wants to play a warrior. Play a warrior. Ill let you tank in my groups!

Im gonna twink out a warrior to level maybe myself. I do want a tank (I love tanking). Paladin would fit my play style better now, but I like to tank bosses. Warriors pre-pop were pretty much the only ones able to except uber uber equipped pallys/sks I recall. I can't remember the first SK/Pally to tank AoW, I think it was after Velious, right? Its been a while.

My guild never had a SK or Pally MT. I also tanked over better geared sk/pallys on my warrior in velious /shrug, so maybe it was just "Warriors must tank" mentality? It was kind of just to let me tank =P I was mostly plate cycle/giant farming tank. I didn't get to tank the big baddies often (matter of gear and my main was an enchanter).

[Omnimorph]

Warriors are better tanks, but they aren't preferred by dps classes because dps classes then have to actually think about what they're doing. Gotta gage the mobs hp etc for nuking, can't just autoattack straight away etc.

[pickled_heretic]

Warriors are better tanks, but they aren't preferred by dps classes because dps classes then have to actually think about what they're doing. Gotta gage the mobs hp etc for nuking, can't just autoattack straight away etc.

So they're not better than hybrids? A group that is maxing DPS from the get go is going to kill faster and that's going to mean more efficiency all around.

[Stickyfingers]

I think he is saying Warriors are better tanks because they mitigate damage better? Aggro isn't the only thing tanks have to worry about.

[pickled_heretic]

I think he is saying Warriors are better tanks because they mitigate damage better? Aggro isn't the only thing tanks have to worry about.

It's an open equation right now because there are 2 variables: damage mitigation and the rate at which you kill. Both of these increase the mana efficiency of the healer. If you're having to hold back on DPS, you're going to lose the edge having a better mitigation gives you.

[Mady]

When was the big warrior stand down in live? 2003 - 2004?

[YendorLootmonkey]

You could just force aggro on the warrior (although it makes him feel like an adult riding a bike with training wheels) by using root and making sure he is the closest one to the mob for proximity aggro. Multiple classes can cast it, including a mage's earth pet. Rangers have the perfect weapons for it... I was gonna put away my Ebony Bladed Swords that proc Ensaring Roots, but actually they're kinda useful with a warrior tank in the group.

Otherwise, as mentioned above, your DPS classes are going to have to wait way too long to engage and the mob lives longer, thus increasing the loss of the group's collective HP pool, which is killing your efficiency.

[pickled_heretic]

You could just force aggro on the warrior (although it makes him feel like an adult riding a bike with training wheels) by using root and making sure he is the closest one to the mob for proximity aggro. Multiple classes can cast it, including a mage's earth pet. Rangers have the perfect weapons for it... I was gonna put away my Ebony Bladed Swords that proc Ensaring Roots, but actually they're kinda useful with a warrior tank in the group.

Yeah, and root is such a sloppy way to do it. With all that nuking going on it's definitely going to break a couple of times. Please put the Eblades away when I'm tanking =)

[Omnimorph]

Yeah, and root is such a sloppy way to do it. With all that nuking going on it's definitely going to break a couple of times. Please put the Eblades away when I'm tanking =)

Only if you have aggro!

And Warriors tank fine at the higher levels. By that time wizards think twice before casting a nuke that could have a mob hitting them for 120s :p

Chanters tank fine. We have tash too.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Yeah, and root is such a sloppy way to do it. With all that nuking going on it's definitely going to break a couple of times. Please put the Eblades away when I'm tanking =)

If a warrior needs root to "hold aggro" (and I put that in quotes because it's not really holding aggro), then chances are the mob is ping-ponging around from the nuking anyway, so there's really no difference, is there?

At least with the eblades, when root breaks, the ranger is most likely taking the hits and not one of your casters, giving you a chance to re-aggro without getting a robe-wearer killed.

However, note I'm not going to get into an argument over whether rangers can mitigate damage better than a caster. ;)

[pickled_heretic]

Only if you have aggro!

And Warriors tank fine at the higher levels. By that time wizards think twice before casting a nuke that could have a mob hitting them for 120s :p

Chanters tank fine. We have tash too.

Well they need to unlearn what they've learned from playing with warriors if they're playing with me because I can hold aggro at 100% as soon as my first spell goes off and I want them to chain nuke so we can get to the next mob.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Well they need to unlearn what they've learned from playing with warriors if they're playing with me because I can hold aggro at 100% as soon as my first spell goes off and I want them to chain nuke so we can get to the next mob.

Oh, I just read far enough back in the thread to see that you're an SK. Sorry, couldn't tell from your corpse in Mistmoore (or in Crushbone or wherever I saw it!) :)

Anyway, yes, I've got weapons to switch out the eblades with if I'm playing alongside a SK or Pally.

[Dantes]

I've leveled up to 20 so far, and holding aggro is a bitch. On light blue, blue and sometimes white cons it's relatively easy to snap aggro. On yellows or reds, it's impossible. Aside from SKs and Paladins, monks and rogues will take aggro too. And the only decent proc weapon you can get that actually procs at a lower level (Obsidian Shards) cost 200-500pp each and as a Warrior you probably won't have much for plat. Otherwise we have to wait until level 25 for the gnoll hide lariats.

Yendor's suggestion to root works well, in fact I've been in groups with him where we used it. By the time root breaks, the mob will most likely be dead anyway. As the warrior all you have to do is stand right up in the mobs face. Easy mode. Not as reliable at higher levels but by that point you should have been able to buy or obtain decent proc weapons and DEX gear. I'm level 20 and I still have ZERO stat gear, sad but true. I can rarely loot because I'm often pulling, and to top that off as a smaller (DE) warrior I don't really have the ability to carry lots of stuff. But my plan was to get as much DEX gear as possible, and being the race that I am my DEX is already pretty decent. But for now I'm just trying to get to 25 for those lariats to work their magic.

[Healthcare]

Tempted to start up an Ogre Warrior again but reading this thread makes me almost wonder if it's not better to just put all points into DEX rather than the standard all into STA and maybe the remaining 7 into DEX to have an ogre warrior dex of 77.

Any high high high end warriors (or even ogre warriors) that could chime in on this thought?

[Omnimorph]

Tempted to start up an Ogre Warrior again but reading this thread makes me almost wonder if it's not better to just put all points into DEX rather than the standard all into STA and maybe the remaining 7 into DEX to have an ogre warrior dex of 77.

Any high high high end warriors (or even ogre warriors) that could chime in on this thought?

High high high end ogre warriors will probably have buffs from shamans so their dex will be at 180+. You can still aim your gear at dex though, ie cloak of shadows as opposed to HBC (lose 45hp, gain 13dex), 5str 5dex rings (or 6agi 6dex rings if needed)

Dex shouldn't be a problem at high end, hp is usually the stat you want to focus on anyway.

[mitic]

High high high end ogre warriors will probably have buffs from shamans so their dex will be at 180+. You can still aim your gear at dex though, ie cloak of shadows as opposed to HBC (lose 45hp, gain 13dex), 5str 5dex rings (or 6agi 6dex rings if needed)

Dex shouldn't be a problem at high end, hp is usually the stat you want to focus on anyway.

yep, personaly i would go fully STA myself and try to get my hands on DEX armor like cloak of shadows (+13 dex?).... procs start to hit more often above the 100 mark.

STR can be completely disregarded till the warrior reaches the planes levels. they aint DPS, they are primary here to shield the rest of the group folks!

if you want to do dmg too, go knight.

[Omnimorph]

if you want to do dmg too, go knight.

Funny you should say that, i don't recall what it was like on classic (i was never a tank) but on live a few years back i had an 85 pally, and he was the worst dps out of the 3. Warriors were hands down the best due to dual wield, SK's had dots and HT so could do a bit too, but pallies were rubbish for dps.

I imagine once some genuinely nice 1 handed dps weapons come out for warrior, they will be better dps than knights. Knights have their utilities to make them worthwhile.

[mitic]

Funny you should say that, i don't recall what it was like on classic (i was never a tank) but on live a few years back i had an 85 pally, and he was the worst dps out of the 3. Warriors were hands down the best due to dual wield, SK's had dots and HT so could do a bit too, but pallies were rubbish for dps.

I imagine once some genuinely nice 1 handed dps weapons come out for warrior, they will be better dps than knights. Knights have their utilities to make them worthwhile.

a warrior starts to outdps a knight with 2ssoys at the lvl they start to proc (lvl 39?). up to this lvl the knight will be better in the dps sector since they can wield whatever they want (mith2h comes to mind).

besides that, a knight can go fully STR (=added dmg) on equipment since aggro can be easily generated by their spells. different story on warriors as already mentioned in above posts.

[Omnimorph]

I'll concede SK's will out dmg warriors up till then, but i'm not giving you pallies... no sir... no way :p Dual wielding warrior with equivalent weapons (if we're talking a pally with mith 2h then let's say warrior with 2 yaks) 8/24 dual wielding he'll do more dmg. Pally will hold aggro better so the group might do better overall dps... probably

[YendorLootmonkey]

I'll concede SK's will out dmg warriors up till then, but i'm not giving you pallies... no sir... no way :p Dual wielding warrior with equivalent weapons (if we're talking a pally with mith 2h then let's say warrior with 2 yaks) 8/24 dual wielding he'll do more dmg. Pally will hold aggro better so the group might do better overall dps... probably

Yeah, I don't think anyone cares who or what a warrior can out-DPS if the warrior cannot keep the mob on him. :)

A warrior who can't keep aggro is like a cleric who forgot to buy his healing spells.

A warrior who can't keep aggro is like a necro who doesn't use pets when he solos.

A warrior who can't keep aggro is like a stripper without tits.

A warrior who can't keep aggro is like a Taco Bell that ran out of tortillas.

please continue with your own analogies...

[mitic]

Dual wielding warrior with equivalent weapons (if we're talking a pally with mith 2h then let's say warrior with 2 yaks) 8/24 dual wielding he'll do more dmg.

i highly doubt that with a fbss. maybe with a cof, but thats just a maybe :p

/wtb parses

[Yoite]

A warrior who can't keep aggro is like a necro who doesn't use pets when he solos.


haha this is often me.

[astuce999]

I see all this talk of Pally/SK's being great group tanks because of snap aggro and warriors having problems.... But no one has mentioned bards! Bards are the best group tanks on p99 right now! Yes I'm sure this will stirr up some emotions from 'traditional' plate tanks, but hear me out! As a bard, you'll likely be doig the pulling, so you have the initial aggro bonus, then you can use chains (which imo rivals disease cloud as best snap aggro in game) which will snare and! slow the mob. While the mob is in camp you can twist dots on it (use instrument twisting for greater effect) building even more insurmountable hate, and play a heal song, and a mana song.

Bard mitigation is not as good as other plate tanks you'll say. This is true, however, since the mob is slowed, and a heal song and a manasong is being played, the amount of heals needed to keep the bard up are lowered greatly, and the rate of kills and XP are very high. On top of this, add the Staff of Aggro (writhing) in primary and a PGT in secondary (rune proc) and no one can touch the bard on aggro.

Note: I don't believe bards should be able to tank as well as they do, the aggro code is not done correctly for them, but I can't find the specific date when it was changed that bards could no longer hold aggro... whatsoever.

discuss!

Astuce Subterfuge
Bard of the 44th Song

[pickled_heretic]

stuff

In a group, bards are about the only class that will ever turn a mob away from me. I can still out aggro a bard easily but my normal DC+ED once per mob is not always enough to hold it.. I will have to reapply DC 1 or 2 more times to keep the mob focused on me. I could see how bards could hold aggro if there was not a pal/sk in the group. I think if there was a bard and another CC in your group AND you didn't have a pal/sk the bard could fill in as a tank, and probably do a better job with aggro than a warrior, but BEST tank? Nah, not really.

[mitic]

i did actually tank with my bard up to mid 40ies...even royals in solb where np. but i gona bet all my current gear that a warrior/knight would consume less healing mana than a bard

[astuce999]

i did actually tank with my bard up to mid 40ies...even royals in solb where np. but i gona bet all my current gear that a warrior/knight would consume less healing mana than a bard


Just to make sure we compare apples to apples,

Bard playing slow + mana song vs. Tank with no slows and no mana song you're betting at end of fight healer has more mana with Tank than with Bard.

What kind of gear do you have?

Astuce Subterfuge
Bard of the 44th Song

[pickled_heretic]

Just to make sure we compare apples to apples,

Bard playing slow + mana song vs. Tank with no slows and no mana song you're betting at end of fight healer has more mana with Tank than with Bard.

What kind of gear do you have?

Astuce Subterfuge
Bard of the 44th Song

What kind of group are you in where you don't have an enchanter? doesn't any decent group without a bard have an enchanter?

[Omnimorph]

bards lol.

I can rune myself whilst i tank. Between Tash and self rune i can tank with no healing!

Well yeah a warrior with a weapon that doesn't proc won't hold aggro, but i was just saying they'd be better dps :p You said they do more dmg than knights once they hit 37 and it starts proccing, i was being pedantic saying they still had better dps before this.

Just ignore me and continue.

[Weekapaug]

a warrior starts to outdps a knight with 2ssoys at the lvl they start to proc (lvl 39?). up to this lvl the knight will be better in the dps sector since they can wield whatever they want (mith2h comes to mind).

besides that, a knight can go fully STR (=added dmg) on equipment since aggro can be easily generated by their spells. different story on warriors as already mentioned in above posts.

The damage tables on knights are lower than warriors, so no matter what their STR is, the ATK it generates on a Pally or SK will still be calculated into actual damage lower than it will on a warrior. Of the 3 tanks, warriors are supposed to out dps the other two, and they definately do post-Classic.

This tuning came into the game sometime during Kunark when it became known that warriors with certain weapons were out DPSing monks with the same weapons.....Jade Maces, as I recall, and as I recall it goes like this:

Melee DPS was rebalanced with Rogue > Monk > Ranger > Warrior > Hybrid (sans ranger) melee dps in mind, when the Rogue has the back of the mob. If, not, swap Monk and Rogue in that. The only hybrid that out-DPSes any pure melee with the same weapon is the Ranger because it is a DPS class and their damage table calculates their damage output accordingly. The rest are at the end of the line, as they should be based on their untility and other methods of doing damage. Among the hybrids it goes Ranger > Bard > Pally / SK. Of all melee classes, Paladins and Shadow Knights are dead last on the totem pole.

And bear in mind that none of this has anything to do with gear, str, buffs or anything else. It's built into the actual math of the combat calculations for each class.

Hybrid tanks are already at a disadvantage AC-wise compared to warriors, they really shouldn't be encouraged to emphasise STR when they should be seeking out every bit of AC on every slot they can. DPS on a tank is really a moot point anyway. Thats what DPS classes are for. Pallys and Shadow Knights that use 2 handers are cheating themselves (and the clerics that heal them) out of a lot of AC by not using shields, IMO.

And that's the problem with Classic Era EQ where tanks are concerned. The ease at which hybrid tanks can hold aggro and the lack of serious consequences in most cases for not gearing properly, confusing rangers and bards with actual tanks, etc. etc. not only gives warriors a bad rap, but it makes it all too easy to get by with things that will abruptly come to an end post 50. A hybrid tank with a 2 hander who sacrificed AC for STR thinking he's DPS too, or a bard or ranger who thinks he can tank is going to get smacked down in high level Kunark so fast it won't even be funny.

[Weekapaug]

yep, personaly i would go fully STA myself and try to get my hands on DEX armor like cloak of shadows (+13 dex?).... procs start to hit more often above the 100 mark.

STR can be completely disregarded till the warrior reaches the planes levels. they aint DPS, they are primary here to shield the rest of the group folks!

if you want to do dmg too, go knight.

The DEX on the Cloak of Shadows is a wonderful extra for warriors, but for any tank, the real value of the cloak is the 12 AC....Best AC cloak pre-planes in classic EQ, as far as I know.

Warriors prioritize 1 AC (worn) = 6 HPs, so the 2 extra AC on the CoS likely doesn't warrant sacrificing the HPs found on on a HBC or CoF for a warrior (my live accounts arent active or I would go look and tell you for sure), unless he most definately needs that extra DEX for holding aggro. Especially the CoF, being a haste item on top of a great tank cloak AC and Stat wise, allowing the tank to wear a real belt rather than an FBSS. You don't need procs to go off constantly to do DPS as a tank....You just need enough to take and hold aggro. There is a difference.

Hybrid tanks, or bards for that matter, "aint DPS" either. If you want to do DPS, be a DPS class. If you want to be a tank, gear yourself accordingly by maximizing your AC on every slot with a bit of leeway for gear that gives you extra HPS. End of Story. With the exception of warriors, who should have ONLY enough extra DEX as needed to proc enough to reliably take and hold aggro.

And if you, as any tank, find yourself just oozing AC and HPs out the ears in current content so much that your cleric constantly has the extra mana to let you deviate from that, which you probably won't unless they are uber with a manastone and rubi BP, then go with resist gear. With the OP situation of caster mobs here you will find that goes a lot farther to contributing to your role than a miniscule extra amount of DPS that you might generate with extra STR or DEX gear.

[Taluvill]

And that's the problem with Classic Era EQ where tanks are concerned. The ease at which hybrid tanks can hold aggro and the lack of serious consequences in most cases for not gearing properly, confusing rangers and bards with actual tanks, etc. etc. not only gives warriors a bad rap, but it makes it all too easy to get by with things that will abruptly come to an end post 50. A hybrid tank with a 2 hander who sacrificed AC for STR thinking he's DPS too, or a bard or ranger who thinks he can tank is going to get smacked down in high level Kunark so fast it won't even be funny.

TBH, this gimps many new players to EQ and Noobier players because you wont get shit done post 50 with a dps SK/Paladin. You need a Tank pally, a tank sk, or a good war to do a lot of content, especially raiding.

[Yoite]

well here is my experience on the tank dps deal. my current toon im playing in my pally, lvl 30. I have a blued two handed hammer and ghoulbane + scute shield. The shield is nice with 9sta and 15ac, but my dps is so much better with the 2h hammer that stuff dies faster and i require less healing than the 9sta and 15ac reduce incoming damage. this was true even at 29 and below when the hammer didnt proc, now that it procs its even better.

the exception obviously is vs undead but that is b/c of the OP proc on the ghoulbane.

[Yoite]

although i still recommend maxing your ac and hp in every slot you can as opposed to str or dex as a tank. just stating that i think 2handers are better than 1h + shield.

[Omnimorph]

In classic, and pretty much until velious raid gear, knights didn't get the truly nice dmg/dly 1 handers. Massive dragonclaw shard, Ntov loot etc. So a 2 hander will ALWAYS do considerably more damage than a 1 hander + shield, and due to there being an issue with the ac cap on this server (or so i'm told) then AC from a shield isn't that much of a benefit.

So yeah, a 2 hander is probably the best option.

[Weekapaug]

In classic, and pretty much until velious raid gear, knights didn't get the truly nice dmg/dly 1 handers. Massive dragonclaw shard, Ntov loot etc. So a 2 hander will ALWAYS do considerably more damage than a 1 hander + shield, and due to there being an issue with the ac cap on this server (or so i'm told) then AC from a shield isn't that much of a benefit.

So yeah, a 2 hander is probably the best option.

I was talking in terms of the scope of the server with the long haul thru Kunark and Velious in mind. In classic you can do pretty much whatever and get away with it. Let's face it, you don't even need tanks in classic. A good puller and a mage pet or two will do the trick in most situations right now.

But I wouldn't suggest people try that down the line. Nor would I suggest that knights get used to 2 handers in every situation. Nor would I suggest people not play warriors. The server is going to need knights who are properly geared and know how to play their classes, is most definately going to need warriors, and is going to need people who know how to help warriors with aggro.

2-Handers are fine, if you still build your toon like a tank and use them judiciously, but I've been grouped with a slew of small-race SKs recently who use 2 handers exclusively who constantly complain about casters not stunning caster mobs, yet they can't be bothered to use a shield to bash, themselves. One even made some comments about "AC being useless on this server" about 20 mins before bitching that the healers in the group were taking too long to med every couple of pulls.....which would probably explain why the healers were burning so much mana keeping him healed.

[Healthcare]

So while lowbie warriors wait until 25 to use lariat hide whips, what about using a pair of tentacle whips?

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=165

4/25 and procs lifetap. Is magical and non-lore so you can dual wield them. Not sure about the hate that will be caused from the lifetaps though :(. I imagine having some of those lifetaps procs a bit would be nice when you have two weps increasing your chances.

Or are you perhaps just better off saving for a polished granite tomahawk that can absorb some damage?

Also, what causes more aggro, kick or slam? Since I believe slam has a stun component to it also.

[Dantes]

I haven't found lifetap to be a very effective aggro. Case in point, when I chain lifetap with my necromancer my pet pretty much always keeps aggro. You'll rarely proc, if at all, in your offhand so you might be better off with a higher damage weapon. I've given up on the tentacle whip for now and decided to either save up for Obsidian Shards or get lariats at level 25. In the meantime at least I can do more damage with better weapons so I am not completely useless to my group.

[guineapig]

Let's not forget that warrior DPS is MUCH better than Shadow Knight or Paladin DPS.
So that does at least somewhat balance out with not being able to chain nuke with impunity.

I know it's not much but had to be said. The downside to the knight classes is that they have the worst DPS in the game.

[Yoite]

PGT is a good weapon to go for pre 25 and until you can afford shard or get one or get to 25 for whips.

the rune will help with incoming dmg and runes also help with hate

somewhere i read for ever 1point dmg absorbed by rune is 1 hate. I also used a axe of the slayers a lot on my war on this server and often tanked in groups with it. With the large dmg double attacks and rune procs i could hold agro pretty easy so it seems to make sense that rune helps with hate. but i dont know 100% and i probably could not find where i read that before.

anyways, ya, PGT they are great!

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

I haven't found lifetap to be a very effective aggro. Case in point, when I chain lifetap with my necromancer my pet pretty much always keeps aggro. You'll rarely proc, if at all, in your offhand so you might be better off with a higher damage weapon. I've given up on the tentacle whip for now and decided to either save up for Obsidian Shards or get lariats at level 25. In the meantime at least I can do more damage with better weapons so I am not completely useless to my group.

Lifetaps and straight DD procs have very little aggro.

Procs with a stun, rune, or debuff component aggro much more.

[Danth]

In classic, and pretty much until velious raid gear, knights didn't get the truly nice dmg/dly 1 handers. Massive dragonclaw shard, Ntov loot etc. So a 2 hander will ALWAYS do considerably more damage than a 1 hander + shield, and due to there being an issue with the ac cap on this server (or so i'm told) then AC from a shield isn't that much of a benefit.
So yeah, a 2 hander is probably the best option.

While marginally off-topic for a Warrior thread, I wanted to make a correction:

Kunark offers a fair number of 1H weapons which are useful to hybrid tanks at 60, moreso than pre-expansion in fact. These include Sword of the Morning, Noctivagant Blade, Mace of the Shadowed Soul, and Rod of Faith, to name a few. None of those are raid drops, unlike the Velious weapons mentioned above. (Indeed, the sad irony about most of those Velious 1-handers, is by the time the hybrid can expect to get them, he'll only be tanking once in a blue moon anyway.) Given the significant amount of AC to be had on kunark shields (25AC being about typical for pre-raid), 1H/shield represents a useful option for the hybrid tanks during Kunark. This is particularly true due to Kunark's poor itemization for certain slots outside raids, such as the dearth of plate chests--maximizing AC elsewhere becomes important.

2H still does more damage, though, as is logical.

Most Warriors during Kunark can expect to wield Lamentations or the like.

Danth