Inny FTE rules clarification

[Metallikus]

Sirken announced TMO had FTE and loot rights to Inny. The logs showed crazyeyes as first to agro on the encounter log. That would obviously be enough to satisfy the raiders as FTE has been the rule. But afterwards Sirken joins guildchat and makes claims to counter his ruling by saying Inny is not first to agro but rather first to damage? What is up with that? Does anyone know the actual rules to raiding anymore?

logs of Sirken in guild chat trying to explain the FTE ruling for 1/4/3 Inny kill:

[Fri Jan 04 20:54:24 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'GM Sirken here'
[Fri Jan 04 20:54:40 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'I dont want to explain the same things 100x, so here goes'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:02 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'Different mobs = different situations'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:23 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'People pull inny to ent. whereas every sits on trak spawn spot for ft '
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:38 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'So thats why dam is required for inny and not trak'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:58 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'Theres no conspiracy, its common sense based on what we can see in the logs'

[quido]

What about a miss?

[Relapse2]

it is 2013 can we stop crying about stupid mobs everyone has killed over 2 million times?

[Loly Taa]

it is 2013 can we stop crying about stupid mobs everyone has killed over 2 million times?

I think I have to agree with this man here.

[Bushido]

it is that way because because of past rulings. in the past 2 guilds were competing for inny. person1 agros inny and gets DT, person2 was the next to agro. person2's guild was the FTE by the ruling as inny reset(albeit for probably 1 millisecond). both guilds were right on inny's spawn waiting for him. i don't know this particular situation but it sounds like this is maybe what happened?

edit: nm had the wrong idea, but sirken sounds correct in his ruling given the situation.

[quido]

It's 2013, can we stop being inbred and crying about people crying over a game that we don't even play any more?

[Relapse2]

who says i don't play?

[Itap]

This make complete sense, how are you not understanding?

[Eccezan]

It's 2013, can we stop being inbred and crying about people crying over a game that we don't even play any more?

Hey whats this about not being inbred anymore?!?

"I'll tell you what. I'm going to give you a present. After I raise my armies, and kill your traitor brother, I'll give you his head as well. " - King Joffrey Baratheon, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men

[Metallikus]

What is the purpose of the additional Sirken babble in our guildchat about Trakanon FTE and INNY FTE being different? What is this "new rule" about first to damage? Please explain this.

[Bushido]

idk, i haven't played in a long time. but it's like comparing apples and oranges it sounds like to me. if you ran and killed inny close to his spawn it sounds like the same fte rules would apply. but as you pulled inny all the to the zone in it is completely different. could even be considered delaying to me(just my opinion, although i could be wrong). i don't know the situation.

[SamwiseRed]

no FTE or spawn variance on red. THINK ABOUT IT. not recruiting from red btw, i know more than half of you would join nilly. just pointing out that you dont have to deal with this shit.

[Nizzarr]

We also pull innoruuk to the zone line on red, over the corpse of slain basketball players.

Innoruuk is serious business.

[Sirken]

What is the purpose of the additional Sirken babble in our guildchat about Trakanon FTE and INNY FTE being different? What is this "new rule" about first to damage? Please explain this.

the "additional babble" in your guild chat was because various members of your guild were sending me tells asking the same questions, and i value my time. teach your members to not bombard staff with tells, and let a single guild rep do it, and i won't have to do that.

as far as this damage thing, stop acting retarded. people pull inny. its not going to be awarded to some asshole FDing monk. people plop 150 on trak spawn spot, there is no pull. it is an absolutely instant engage and kill. realistically, its a completely random crap shoot which toon Trak picks.

if you dont see the difference then maybe someone in your guild, or another guild, can sit you down and explain it to you because you are beyond my help.


edit: and for the record, first damage or not, TMO would have had fte on Inny any way you sliced it. so again, wtf?

[Doors]

The easiest solution would be to ban all of TMO. You'd end the RMT ring and clean up the raiding scene all in one motion.

[Thana8088]

The easiest solution would be to ban all of TMO. You'd end the RMT ring and clean up the raiding scene all in one motion.

An even easier solution is to ban people who suggest indiscriminately banning people.

[fishingme]

An even easier solution is to ban people who suggest indiscriminately banning people.

Funny enough, plenty of tmo have suggested it

[Loly Taa]

The easiest solution would be to ban all of TMO. You'd end the RMT ring and clean up the raiding scene all in one motion.

1,800 posts and still delusional.

[arsenalpow]

An even easier solution is to ban people who suggest indiscriminately banning people.

ban the people who suggest banning people that think banning people indiscriminately is a good idea

[Sirken]

@charms,

im pretty sure theres a difference between flaming and pointing out glaring facts asking honest questions.

you obviously don't have much raiding experience here. lots of things can effect FTE, ie: fraps, first person was kiting, SSs, entire guild wiped except for a dwarf cleric that was running circles, etc. this is not news, this is how it's been since FTE log access was made available.

im sorry that you feel hurt, abused, cheated, violated, or wronged.

if you want to talk about it, send me a PM and we can cuddle ;)

[fishingme]

1,800 posts and still delusional.

113 posts and still uninformed.

[Maze513]

ban the people who suggest banning people that think banning people indiscriminately is a good idea

I like were this was going. can we get back on track and get some bans handed out to those who wish bans to be bund upon those they deem bananas

[Loly Taa]

113 posts and still uninformed.

..wat?

[Metallikus]

@Sirken

Raid Rules / FAQ

Q: What classifies a mob as "Engaged"?
A: A mob is classified as engaged as long as it has aggro on at least one player.

Q: Can we camp raid mobs?
A: The spawn variance prevents guilds from claiming unspawned raid mobs as they don’t know when the mob is due. If you want the mob, then pull and engage the mob, Period.

Q: Both raids got here simultaneously. What do we do?
A: First to Engage.

Q: What rules pertain to raid mobs that are triggered spawns?
A: If a raid mob is triggered to spawn by killing a single mob before it (Example: Statue -> Idol -> Avatar of War), the guild that spawned the mob has 20 minutes to engage it. The mob is open to any other guild on a first to engage basis once the first guild has either wiped or not engaged within the time limit.

Q: What about raid mobs that are spawned by a combination of other mobs?
A: In the case of a raid mob that is spawned by clearing an area (Example: Azarack Island in Plane of Sky), the guild that did the clearing has the same consideration as above; That is, 20 Minutes to engage and 1 attempt. In the case of multiple guilds contributing significantly to the spawn of the mob, the mob is first to engage by any of those guilds.
Just a reminder: If the first guild fails to kill the mob on their first attempt or fails to engage within 20 minutes of the mob's spawntime, the mob's ownership is determind based on the first guild to engage at that point.

Q: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited or occupied?
A: It is against server policy to indefinitely kite, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of bringing it to your raid camp. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stall-kiting of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild, will result in disciplinary actions against the kiter's account, and possibly their raid/guild leadership.

Venril Sathir
Venril Sathir may only be pulled into the larger room adjacent to his spawn point, no further.
.

These are the rules defined by you and p99 staff. FTE = first to agro.

No one in my guild is arguing that TMO didnt have FTE and loot rights. We do however want to know all the unwritten rules that are considered for each encounter so we can know before we are arbitrarily rule against.

No one in my guild should have been sending you tells concerning this except for the raid leaders present. So I'll handle that - let me know who they were for disciplinary actions.

When you jump into guild chat and throw out random crap about first to damage in a clear cut case that TMO had FTE. You make us rethinkwhat the fuck is going on. Since you say that on his encounter it is different because getting agro doesnt matter but first to damage matters. This encounter had 3 pullers that ran back to the raid (crazyeyes, veloci, yamaksi) all 3 that could have damaged inny on the pull with a javelin or dagger or whatever. How do u tell from the log? Is that even the damage you are talking about? Maybe you mean the first damage done to the mob when it got to the raid's camp? What the fuck do you mean by first damage? You are the one who has confused the issue, now explain it.

Encounter Details
Encounter Details
Server: Live
Encounter ID: 109757515
Entity Count: 48
Spawned: Fri Jan 04, 2013; 13:50:00
Engaged: Fri Jan 04, 2013; 14:23:40
Death: Fri Jan 04, 2013; 14:25:37
Duration: 1 Minutes, 57 Seconds. (117 Seconds)
Merited To: Group 2336
Kill Stolen: No

# Entity Name Guild Name Level Class Engage Delay Disengage Length Group Damage Hate
1 Crazyeyes (140782)[1846] The Mystical Order 60 Rogue 14:23:40 0 14:25:37 117 2336 5124 1888
2 Veloci (224578)[1819] Forceful Entry 59 Monk 14:23:41 1 14:25:37 116 0 1796 1354
3 Yamakasi (272403)[1814] (O) Bregan D`Aerth 60 Monk 14:23:43 3 14:25:19 96 2341 2594 3168
4 Geleana (140690)[1848] The Mystical Order 60 Bard 14:24:13 33 14:25:37 84 2336 0 0
5 Sworen (69138)[1845] The Mystical Order 60 Warrior 14:24:24 44 14:24:31 7 2336 10 657
6 Knix (254923)[1847] The Mystical Order 60 Druid 14:24:25 45 14:24:35 10 2336 0 113
7 Anthrax (41686)[1825] (O) Bregan D`Aerth 60 Warrior 14:24:25 45 14:25:37 72 2341 986 1982
8 Cephalic (217872)[1822] Bregan D`Aerth 60 Rogue 14:24:35 55 14:25:37 62 2349 2033 967
9 Bolloney (242013)[1844] The Mystical Order 55 Ranger 14:24:35 55 14:25:37 62 2336 1428 1341
10 Vitus (331462)[1823] Divinity 60 Monk 14:24:35 55 14:24:47 12 0 531 669
11 Suirad (133701)[1826] Bregan D`Aerth 60 Ranger 14:24:38 58 14:25:37 59 2349 944 1163
12 Imba (341369)[1828] (O) Forceful Entry 60 Warrior 14:24:39 59 14:25:12 33 0 714 3977
13 Verenity (178596)[1815] (O) Bregan D`Aerth 60 Cleric 14:24:40 60 14:25:37 57 2341 0 169
14 Xerxes (267241)[1852] Bregan D`Aerth 60 Monk 14:24:41 61 14:25:00 19 2349 656 895
15 Mithor (250149)[1858] The Mystical Order 60 Necromancer 14:24:41 61 14:25:15 34 2344 0 0
16 Necrious (23585)[1855] The Mystical Order 59 Necromancer 14:24:42 62 14:24:47 5 2344 0 828
17 Xaine (200189)[1830] Bregan D`Aerth 60 Warrior 14:24:42 62 14:25:37 55 0 1021 1834
18 Kindadar (240819)[1854] The Mystical Order 60 Druid 14:24:43 63 14:25:37 54 2344 0 1210
19 Kaerik (229687)[1860] The Mystical Order 60 Cleric 14:24:45 65 14:25:37 52 2336 0 119
20 Doraf (9561)[1813] Forceful Entry 60 Cleric 14:24:47 67 14:25:37 50 0 0 43
21 Versager (257638)[1820] Forceful Entry 60 Wizard 14:24:47 67 14:24:51 4 0 0 875
22 Mithra (306864)[1850] Forceful Entry 54 Rogue 14:24:52 72 14:25:37 45 2352 1932 1996
23 Jambi (32864)[1839] Forceful Entry 56 Shadow Knight 14:24:57 77 14:25:34 37 2352 673 2725
24 Sookie (273505)[1818] Forceful Entry 46 Druid 14:24:59 79 14:25:37 38 0 0 16
25 Sckrilla (68129)[1876] The Mystical Order 60 Rogue 14:24:59 79 14:25:37 38 2359 2830 73
26 Jeremy (10654)[1867] (O) The Mystical Order 60 Shaman 14:25:00 80 14:25:37 37 2351 1350 2469
27 Taelara (300167)[1874] The Mystical Order 59 Druid 14:25:01 81 14:25:37 36 0 0 1431
28 Tinyscare (158296)[1864] The Mystical Order 60 Necromancer 14:25:02 82 14:25:37 35 2337 0 161
29 Mithor's Pet (a_kiraikuei) (76009)[1680] The Mystical Order 50 Monk 14:25:02 82 14:25:11 9 2344 243 277
30 Xerxes (267241)[1852] Bregan D`Aerth 60 Monk 14:25:03 83 14:25:37 34 2349 2823 1673
31 Kegluas (69548)[1877] The Mystical Order 60 Warrior 14:25:03 83 14:25:31 28 2359 932 2180
32 Puyi (348534)[1832] Forceful Entry 58 Cleric 14:25:03 83 14:25:37 34 0 6 106
33 Qanelar (233836)[1824] Bregan D`Aerth 51 Cleric 14:25:04 84 14:25:37 33 2360 0 0
34 Vitus (331462)[1823] Divinity 60 Monk 14:25:04 84 14:25:37 33 0 985 1278
35 Worship (311313)[1838] Forceful Entry 52 Monk 14:25:10 90 14:25:37 27 2338 302 890
36 Krythis (340384)[1837] Forceful Entry 56 Bard 14:25:10 90 14:25:37 27 2338 0 0
37 Falling's Pet (an_ire_ghast) (76008)[1557] The Mystical Order 50 Shadow Knight 14:25:11 91 14:25:37 26 2351 345 985
38 Falling (107590)[1871] The Mystical Order 59 Necromancer 14:25:11 91 14:25:37 26 2351 0 0
39 Aenarie (108089)[1868] The Mystical Order 57 Cleric 14:25:12 92 14:25:37 25 2351 0 57
40 Lorea's Pet (SumMageMultiElement) (598)[1884] The Mystical Order 49 Warrior 14:25:12 92 14:25:37 25 2351 750 994
41 Lorea (51498)[1870] The Mystical Order 60 Magician 14:25:12 92 14:25:37 25 2351 0 0
42 Yamakasi (272403)[1814] (O) Bregan D`Aerth 60 Monk 14:25:20 100 14:25:37 17 2341 3467 1811
43 Gabtik (198143)[1834] Forceful Entry 60 Wizard 14:25:21 101 14:25:37 16 2338 2475 2625
44 Tobli (299462)[1863] The Mystical Order 59 Cleric 14:25:23 103 14:25:37 14 2337 0 28
45 Mithor (250149)[1858] The Mystical Order 60 Necromancer 14:25:28 108 14:25:37 9 2344 0 0
46 Breachin (125637)[1880] The Mystical Order 51 Wizard 14:25:32 112 14:25:37 5 0 0 679
47 Dexs (93254)[1836] (O) Inglourious Basterds 60 Druid 14:25:35 115 14:25:37 2 0 386 1194
48 Hiphopotamus (287747)[1816] Forceful Entry 59 Druid 14:25:36 116 14:25:37 1 2352 0 16

[Metallikus]

The only thing he could possibly be saying with reguards to "first to damage" is :

if a guild is pulling a raid boss, Sirken says it is ok to run out ahead of that raid force and do dmg to the mob before it gets into their camp. Then you can petition for FTD?

Is that how you are lining out the new rule?

[Vandy]

So if I throw a ranged item at Inny and it misses and he aggro's me... then random puller from another guild throws a ranged item which lands on Inny doing 1 damage then they have the rights to the kill?

[Silo69]

what did he drop?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

What about a miss?


brilliant.

Is this is like the episode where Kirk tells fembot #248 he likes her, and fembot # 921 he does not like her, even though they are identical, and then they both start smoking out from their heads?

[Tasslehofp99]

lol we been going through this for months and months on end, but nothing changes...so just figure out new ways to get FTE. Apparently TMO is allowed to train in PoHate when they know they will lose a mob, or kite dragons around zones for 5-10 minutes while there is a raid force in zone until TMO has more then 8 people in zone to kill it(fraps of sev being kited around city of mist apparently don't prove anything). I wouldn't suggest trying those things if you aren't in TMO, but yeah.

I give up with the entire FTE argument, we all know its a broken and bullshit rule made up to benefit TMO, and when it stops benefitting them it will be changed. Hence why I came up with my idea for a server-wide all out poopsock alliance against TMO until something changes.

[Fazlazen]

lol we been going through this for months and months on end, but nothing changes...so just figure out new ways to get FTE. Apparently TMO is allowed to train in PoHate when they know they will lose a mob, or kite dragons around zones for 5-10 minutes while there is a raid force in zone until TMO has more then 8 people in zone to kill it(fraps of sev being kited around city of mist apparently don't prove anything). I wouldn't suggest trying those things if you aren't in TMO, but yeah.

I give up with the entire FTE argument, we all know its a broken and bullshit rule made up to benefit TMO, and when it stops benefitting them it will be changed. Hence why I came up with my idea for a server-wide all out poopsock alliance against TMO until something changes.

can I get some of that kool-aid?

[Smilkers]

Hence why I came up with my idea for a server-wide all out poopsock alliance against TMO until something changes.

Shaere thought of this first, do you remember "no truce with the shadow"?
and he was laughed off the server.
I like you Tassel, but really?

[YendorLootmonkey]

How can we compete when the rules keep changing?

FACT: The raid rules are here (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79642). Effective July 2012.

FACT: In order to compete on this server within the given ruleset, you have to know the rules.

FACT: We are now being told that some encounters are first to damage, which is contradictory to the posted raid rules.

So if we don't know the rules, how is anyone supposed to compete on this server?

Please update the raid rules if there are different rules for different encounters so we can adapt accordingly and compete on a level playing field. Otherwise, please be consistent with the raid rules and rulings in accordance with the raid rules. Again, no one is saying TMO didn't have FTE... the logs clearly show that. We're concerned about "what rules are in effect on a particular mob so we can best position ourselves to compete for ownership of the kill?"

It's like playing a game of football and the refs deciding amongst themselves whether they're playing by college or NFL rules, and not telling you until the yellow flag is thrown and the penalty is assessed, and then potentially changing which rules they're going by before each play.

[Eccezan]

Haven't read the walls of text in this thread, but it seems that Metallicass is still an annoying piece of shit. amirite? :rolleyes:

[TWDL_Prexus]

Haven't read the walls of text in this thread, but it seems that Metallicass is still an annoying piece of shit. amirite? :rolleyes:

Pretty much TMO in a nutshell, for all those new to the server.

[Autotune]

well there goes eye pulling?

[Enygma]

Sirken announced TMO had FTE and loot rights to Inny. The logs showed crazyeyes as first to agro on the encounter log. That would obviously be enough to satisfy the raiders as FTE has been the rule. But afterwards Sirken joins guildchat and makes claims to counter his ruling by saying Inny is not first to agro but rather first to damage? What is up with that? Does anyone know the actual rules to raiding anymore?

logs of Sirken in guild chat trying to explain the FTE ruling for 1/4/3 Inny kill:

[Fri Jan 04 20:54:24 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'GM Sirken here'
[Fri Jan 04 20:54:40 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'I dont want to explain the same things 100x, so here goes'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:02 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'Different mobs = different situations'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:23 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'People pull inny to ent. whereas every sits on trak spawn spot for ft '
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:38 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'So thats why dam is required for inny and not trak'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:58 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'Theres no conspiracy, its common sense based on what we can see in the logs'

Metallikus crying since 1999.

[Enygma]

Crazyeyes King of FTE?

[Handull]

people plop 150 on trak spawn spot, there is no pull. it is an absolutely instant engage and kill.

this only happens when Trak goes into the last 4 or so hours of his window. otherwise it comes down to which guild gets 'enough' toons to log in first, trains away the juggs, and charges Trak.

It sounds like Sirken is trying to avoid the following scenarios (which are pretty much exactly the same):
1) GuildA is ready to pull Inny. GuildB has a monk strategically positioned who tags Inny right before GuildA pulls him. Technically GuildB has FTE, but GuildB was not seriously trying to pull him, only trying to unfairly snipe FTE.
2) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB sees GuildA is about to engage Trak, so GuildB has a monk tag him, sniping FTE, even though GuildB wasn't ready to engage Trak at the time.

Obviously, if you know the honest to god truth about what the puller/tagger/sniper was thinking, you'll know who is entitled to the loot rights. But you'll never know that unless the person with FTE is stupid and yells it out in /shout or in a /tell to brag.

The problem comes not in these clear cut scenarios (those being either one guild is simply trying to snipe FTE which is akin to rules lawyering or 150 are on the spawn, which can happen with any/every mob, and it simply comes down to random chance on FTE), but rather with the in-between scenarios:

3) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB may or may not have enough force to engage Trak, but they see GuildA is ready, so their hand is forced and they are willing to risk wiping for FTE. GuildB charges Trak at the same time as GuildA. Both guilds share in the killing of the mob, and loot rights are traditionally determined by which guild had FTE aka first agro. GuildB had first on agro list FTE and GuildB's FTE toon did damage to Trak, but its unclear if GuildB could have killed Trak if it weren't for GuildA also being on the mob.

4) GuildA and GuildB are both trying to pull Inny, most likely at the same time. GuildA gets first on agro list FTE but GuildB is also ready for the pull and has the puller hit the mob before running to the camp. Did GuildB just 'legally' pull-steal the mob from GuildA?

5) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a full force is waiting. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because no damage was done to Fay?

6) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a few guildies are waiting, and the hope is that enough will log in and/or zone in before Fay gets to the camp. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because its not even known if GuildA could have killed Fay and because no damage was done?

7) GuildA is stall-tanking VS with a chain of toons using DA-idols, voidance/riposte discs, etc. GuildA maintains at least one toon on VS's agro list at all times (ie he never resets), but GuildB has a full force in zone to kill VS. Can GuildB now pull VS off the GuildA tanks since GuildB is ready to take down the mob and GuildA is still waiting for more people to log in? Here we have GuildA doing damage to the mob, but only negligible damage compared to VS's total HP.

I didn't mean for this to get so long, but there are so many scenarios to consider and each one can be rule lawyered in its own way. I think the best course of action is to keep the rules simple (first on agro list = FTE = loot rights), but allow the GMs to make rulings otherwise either based on what they saw if they were there or based on something obvious, like GuildA had FTE, but only had 5 toons in zone through the whole fight against Trak. Let the guilds work it out for those ambiguous situations. If GuildA is ready for Trak and sees GuildB charge with 20 people, maybe they should sit back and hope GuildB wipes rather than trying to charge in along side them, assuring the mob dies, and leaving it up to who was lucky/skillful enough to nab FTE.

The only real change I would like to see is that when a quest item drops from a raid mob (VS stone, Trak tooth, etc), GuildA loots it, and then GuildA quickly turns it in, then GuildB is awarded loot rights, I would like to see GuildA lose the quest reward they got and get back the other quest items that they had gotten legitimately. It seems unfair that GuildA gets part of the benefit of the kill permanently, even though GuildB is also given the quest items they are entitled to. If people wised up and coordinated their efforts, we could abuse this and double the number of quest drops that raid mobs have ;)

I'd also like to see Fay drop his pod. 0/4 in a row dry spell is killing me :P

[Handull]

PS i tried to keep my post civil. honestly i'm not sure why GMs even both responding in public posts around here. whatever they say is taken like some infallible gospel and people jump at the chance to prove them wrong. just wanted to add that bit, and I trust the GMs can ignore the trolls/fools and just think about all this logically.

[Sirken]

this only happens when Trak goes into the last 4 or so hours of his window. otherwise it comes down to which guild gets 'enough' toons to log in first, trains away the juggs, and charges Trak.

It sounds like Sirken is trying to avoid the following scenarios (which are pretty much exactly the same):
1) GuildA is ready to pull Inny. GuildB has a monk strategically positioned who tags Inny right before GuildA pulls him. Technically GuildB has FTE, but GuildB was not seriously trying to pull him, only trying to unfairly snipe FTE.
2) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB sees GuildA is about to engage Trak, so GuildB has a monk tag him, sniping FTE, even though GuildB wasn't ready to engage Trak at the time.

Obviously, if you know the honest to god truth about what the puller/tagger/sniper was thinking, you'll know who is entitled to the loot rights. But you'll never know that unless the person with FTE is stupid and yells it out in /shout or in a /tell to brag.

The problem comes not in these clear cut scenarios (those being either one guild is simply trying to snipe FTE which is akin to rules lawyering or 150 are on the spawn, which can happen with any/every mob, and it simply comes down to random chance on FTE), but rather with the in-between scenarios:

3) GuildA is ready to charge Trak. GuildB may or may not have enough force to engage Trak, but they see GuildA is ready, so their hand is forced and they are willing to risk wiping for FTE. GuildB charges Trak at the same time as GuildA. Both guilds share in the killing of the mob, and loot rights are traditionally determined by which guild had FTE aka first agro. GuildB had first on agro list FTE and GuildB's FTE toon did damage to Trak, but its unclear if GuildB could have killed Trak if it weren't for GuildA also being on the mob.

4) GuildA and GuildB are both trying to pull Inny, most likely at the same time. GuildA gets first on agro list FTE but GuildB is also ready for the pull and has the puller hit the mob before running to the camp. Did GuildB just 'legally' pull-steal the mob from GuildA?

5) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a full force is waiting. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because no damage was done to Fay?

6) GuildA eye-agro's Fay and starts pulling him to Ogre Isle where a few guildies are waiting, and the hope is that enough will log in and/or zone in before Fay gets to the camp. GuildB who was camped out at chessboard cuts Fay off in his pathing and kills him long before Fay would have otherwise gotten to GuildA's prep spot. Is this now allowed because its not even known if GuildA could have killed Fay and because no damage was done?

7) GuildA is stall-tanking VS with a chain of toons using DA-idols, voidance/riposte discs, etc. GuildA maintains at least one toon on VS's agro list at all times (ie he never resets), but GuildB has a full force in zone to kill VS. Can GuildB now pull VS off the GuildA tanks since GuildB is ready to take down the mob and GuildA is still waiting for more people to log in? Here we have GuildA doing damage to the mob, but only negligible damage compared to VS's total HP.

I didn't mean for this to get so long, but there are so many scenarios to consider and each one can be rule lawyered in its own way. I think the best course of action is to keep the rules simple (first on agro list = FTE = loot rights), but allow the GMs to make rulings otherwise either based on what they saw if they were there or based on something obvious, like GuildA had FTE, but only had 5 toons in zone through the whole fight against Trak. Let the guilds work it out for those ambiguous situations. If GuildA is ready for Trak and sees GuildB charge with 20 people, maybe they should sit back and hope GuildB wipes rather than trying to charge in along side them, assuring the mob dies, and leaving it up to who was lucky/skillful enough to nab FTE.

The only real change I would like to see is that when a quest item drops from a raid mob (VS stone, Trak tooth, etc), GuildA loots it, and then GuildA quickly turns it in, then GuildB is awarded loot rights, I would like to see GuildA lose the quest reward they got and get back the other quest items that they had gotten legitimately. It seems unfair that GuildA gets part of the benefit of the kill permanently, even though GuildB is also given the quest items they are entitled to. If people wised up and coordinated their efforts, we could abuse this and double the number of quest drops that raid mobs have ;)

I'd also like to see Fay drop his pod. 0/4 in a row dry spell is killing me :P

thank you for taking the time to make a well written, well thought out post.

the problem is, most of these kids want concrete black and white rules for the entire raid scene so that they can start preparing how to find loopholes in the wording, and get their legal team of rule lawyers on the case. sadly for them thats not going to happen.

the only reason i do the loots the way i do is because 1) its easier, and 2) i dont like punishing people because i was not there right away/or they had to wait. but ill talk to Ephi for an outside opinion, and see what he thinks about that as well.

[Sirken]

How can we compete when the rules keep changing?

FACT: The raid rules are here (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79642). Effective July 2012.

FACT: In order to compete on this server within the given ruleset, you have to know the rules.

FACT: We are now being told that some encounters are first to damage, which is contradictory to the posted raid rules.

So if we don't know the rules, how is anyone supposed to compete on this server?

Please update the raid rules if there are different rules for different encounters so we can adapt accordingly and compete on a level playing field. Otherwise, please be consistent with the raid rules and rulings in accordance with the raid rules. Again, no one is saying TMO didn't have FTE... the logs clearly show that. We're concerned about "what rules are in effect on a particular mob so we can best position ourselves to compete for ownership of the kill?"

It's like playing a game of football and the refs deciding amongst themselves whether they're playing by college or NFL rules, and not telling you until the yellow flag is thrown and the penalty is assessed, and then potentially changing which rules they're going by before each play.

Pay attention now,

the week of thanksgiving i sat in Vent with multiple representatives from each BDA, FE, and TMO. they brought up the same crap you are bringing up, and probably for the same reasons. one of the very first things that was brought up was why dont they have a concrete black and white set of rules? it was a very fair question, and i told them all at that time, the reason for that is because every situation is different, every mob is different, and we absolutely no intentions of ever painting the raid scene rules in one simple brush stroke, because it's simply invites loopholing and rule lawyering, and we wont be dealing with that. we are going to use the common sense rule around here. if thats to hard to understand, maybe you should pass the torch.

as much as i hate wasting my time by repeating the same thing, i'm going to go ahead and assume that nobody from your guild bothered to share anything from our NATO Guild Summit with you, or with your guildies, for whatever reason.

the rules do not exist for you and your pals to try and work around, nor do they exist for you to try and find loopholes in wording to gain an unintended advantage, nor do they exist so that some young lawyer can try and pass the p99 bar exam.

the rules exist, and you know what they are for the most part, as different things present themselves, the rules will be adjusted to keep up with the times. when in doubt, use common sense, because when i look at a situation, i use common sense to decide who gets the mob, or who gets banned, or who gets the camp, or who gets the loots, or who gets FTE etc etc. regardless of how you try to work around it, i will always enforce the spirit of the rule.

now i have explained this issue multiple times on multiple levels, i'm considering the matter settled. if you have further legitimate questions and not just butt hurt QQ, then make a petition in the petition/exploit section, or send me, or another staff member a PM. any player that sends me a legitimate question via PM has always gotten a response.


i hope you have a wonderful day,
Love,
Sirks