Veeshan's Peak - Non disputable zone

[Metallikus]

Non-Disputable Zones
Zones deemed Non-Disputable will have no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones. Currently the only zone that this applies to is Veeshan's Peak.

Think about what value there is in upholding this stance. Is it time for change? Discuss.

[Swish]

Anyone got that GIF of the dogs/puppies with TMO / BDA tags fighting over something in it? I'd post it if I could find it :D

Why was VP put in that category in the first place?

[Ele]

Classic

[gotrocks]

because that was always verants stance during velious

I remember reading about it and thinking, "damn. that place must be fucking hardcore if gms wont even go there"

[Boilon]

Well in Classic this rule wasn't set in place to encourage other guilds training each other was it? From what I understand that rule was in place to show how hard the zone was and that GM's would not help in any form of corpse retrieval of sort? At least on E'ci where I came from I do not remember seeing this type of VP here :P (although I am not entirely sure if any guild on that server actually completed VP in the Kunark era)

[Alarti0001]

Non-Disputable Zones
Zones deemed Non-Disputable will have no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones. Currently the only zone that this applies to is Veeshan's Peak.

Think about what value there is in upholding this stance. Is it time for change? Discuss.

ITT

Chest and Xerxes are just as likely to train BDA as they are TMO.

[Snackies]

Non-Disputable Zones
Zones deemed Non-Disputable will have no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones. Currently the only zone that this applies to is Veeshan's Peak.

Think about what value there is in upholding this stance. Is it time for change? Discuss.

No.

Step up your game.

[Handull]

hasn't there already been gm interaction involving pathing exploits, loot stealing, and something about a mem blur bug? or does that fall under the "it was amelinda, so ignore it" section?

if that stuff is still enforced, then it sounds like we already have a middle ground. the allowing of training just means both sides have to work to train and counter train each other. sounds like fun.

[Ele]

Mem blur was a bug that applied to mobs inside and outside of VP and has since been fixed.

Ninja looting is not a raid issue, but a server rule infraction and is dealt with on an individual basis.

Don't know what to say about the pathing besides Xz...... messed that one up horribly.

[Handull]

so training = raid dispute?
kill stealing = server rule?

sounds like this could get confusing quickly

[Ele]

so training = raid dispute?
kill stealing = server rule?

sounds like this could get confusing quickly

I said nothing about training and nothing about kill stealing. Where did you get that from?

[Alarti0001]

hasn't there already been gm interaction involving pathing exploits, loot stealing, and something about a mem blur bug? or does that fall under the "it was amelinda, so ignore it" section?

if that stuff is still enforced, then it sounds like we already have a middle ground. the allowing of training just means both sides have to work to train and counter train each other. sounds like fun.

Lets break this down for you. You can't 2box in VP you can use MQ or SEQ in VP. You cant steal Loot in VP.

Exploiting is not allowed in VP.


Training isnt an exploit.

[Handull]

I said nothing about training and nothing about kill stealing. Where did you get that from?

u didn't, just thinking ahead.

the only reason i think its an interesting matter is because in the rest of the game ninja looting and kill stealing are both punishable. you can't loot a corpse you or your group/guild didn't kill, and you can't kill a mob someone else is already killing.

sounds like VP isn't quite thunderdome (there are no rules), but that a special rule set is used including no to loot stealing but yes to training and kill stealing.

(and there is a thin line between kill stealing and loot stealing, in my opinion. i'm not complaining regardless of the rules in place, just curious what they are since it was brought up)

obviously cheating shouldn't be allowed (boxing, seq, etc)

[Alarti0001]

u didn't, just thinking ahead.

the only reason i think its an interesting matter is because in the rest of the game ninja looting and kill stealing are both punishable. you can't loot a corpse you or your group/guild didn't kill, and you can't kill a mob someone else is already killing.

sounds like VP isn't quite thunderdome (there are no rules), but that a special rule set is used including no to loot stealing but yes to training and kill stealing.

(and there is a thin line between kill stealing and loot stealing, in my opinion. i'm not complaining regardless of the rules in place, just curious what they are since it was brought up)

obviously cheating shouldn't be allowed (boxing, seq, etc)

The memblur bug and the pathing exploits are... cheating.

[Splorf22]

The memblur bug and the pathing exploits are... cheating.

Considering that you guys are the ones who first used it in Skyfire . . .

[gotrocks]

Lets break this down for you. You can't 2box in VP you can use MQ or SEQ in VP. You cant steal Loot in VP.


way to go alarti.

watch those typos when you're reppin seattle or youll make us all look like lumberjacks :D

[Handull]

The memblur bug and the pathing exploits are... cheating.

you quote my whole post to comment about something i didn't mention at all? i did say "etc" to cover the other stuff.

is pulling mobs up to that coh spot still legit, or is that an exploit?

no comment on kill stealing?

[Frieza_Prexus]

Considering that you guys are the ones who first used it in Skyfire . . .

Don't let facts get in the way of the discussion.

[Alarti0001]

Considering that you guys are the ones who first used it in Skyfire . . .

If so we didn't use it afterwards. Didn't your momma tell you 2 wrongs dont make a right?

[Alarti0001]

you quote my whole post to comment about something i didn't mention at all? i did say "etc" to cover the other stuff.

is pulling mobs up to that coh spot still legit, or is that an exploit?

no comment on kill stealing?

Kill stealing is legitimate. There is no FTE in VP

[Alarti0001]

way to go alarti.

watch those typos when you're reppin seattle or youll make us all look like lumberjacks :D

Pssh Seattle is full of Hipsters and hipster don't care enough about typos. Mannnn

[gotrocks]

Pssh Seattle is full of Hipsters and hipster don't care enough about typos. Mannnn

lol'd irl.

[Splorf22]

If so we didn't use it afterwards. Didn't your momma tell you 2 wrongs dont make a right?

Wait a minute, didn't you just admit that TMO exploits? Zeelot will revoke your spin machine privileges if you aren't careful :P

[Alarti0001]

Wait a minute, didn't you just admit that TMO exploits? Zeelot will revoke your spin machine privileges if you aren't careful :P

No i didn't. Reading comprehension kiddo.

[Jenni D]

FC got VS.
who saw that coming?
go try VP or forever be 2nd best.

[Autotune]

The memblur thing was found out because of a pull steal and someone decided to try and steal the kill via memblur and having the most dmg done after the memblur on fay.

Turns out raid targets were set to fully heal on memblurs, who knew amirite?

Later, because now the bug is well known (wasn't actually a bug, it was something intentional sort of) people started using it to fuck with TMO kills but not to actually kill it themselves. They couldn't kill it within the "rules" so they went outside the "rules". GMs pretty much just ignored that exploit and turned a blind eye. TMO then got smarter and smarter until the other guilds could no longer reach the dragons to exploit. Well then those other exploiters started crying and bitching because they couldn't exploit and Amelinda stepped in and cried foul play, let the exploiters exploit some more so they will stfu. So a few bad ass TMO spent some nice hours spawning static wurms all over the entrance to straight rape the memblur exploiting douchebags which was hilarious. They tried to cry about that too and Amelinda searched for any reason as to how we were able to spawn all those wurms illegally. Sadly for the exploiting guild, TMO did it legit.

TMO tried a few times to get them to put a stop to the memblur exploit, yet GMs let it slide. However, when it came to the staff having really crappy pathing in VP (Well known since VP first opened and reported several times by TMO and IB/TR), TMO was deemed to be exploiting because dragons would travel through the walls when pulled (depending on the pull locations) and causing them to come solo (which wasn't the cause, the cause was that nothing but named mobs could see thru hide/sneak on pulls yet, Amelinda played live and was smarter than all of us).

[Elements]

Mem blur was a bug that applied to mobs inside and outside of VP and has since been fixed.

Ninja looting is not a raid issue, but a server rule infraction and is dealt with on an individual basis.

Don't know what to say about the pathing besides Xz...... messed that one up horribly.

I dont think you can have it both ways. Either training and ninja looting are both legit in VP as there will be no GM intervention or they both break the rules and should be enforced equally.

[Autotune]

I dont think you can have it both ways. Either training and ninja looting are both legit in VP as there will be no GM intervention or they both break the rules and should be enforced equally.

well, you think incorrectly.

[Ele]

I dont think you can have it both ways. Either training and ninja looting are both legit in VP as there will be no GM intervention or they both break the rules and should be enforced equally.

I did not say anything about training. And I'm simply stating that Rogean has already laid down the law regarding ninja looting.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=489619&postcount=1

Ninja looting is not a raid dispute. It is an individual basis. If a mob is killed in a non-disputable zone, the group (and thus raid/guild) that is merited the kill has rights to the loot. If they don't grant you permission to loot the corpse, you are violating an individual server rule by ninja looting.

[Elements]

well, you think incorrectly.



Explain to me the logic of how you plan to enforce a no ninja looting policy and a no GM intervention policy at the same time. Sorry broseph but your logic is flawed.

[Autotune]

Explain to me the logic of how you plan to enforce a no ninja looting policy and a no GM intervention policy at the same time. Sorry broseph but your logic is flawed.

I'll answer with, Rogean.

Congratulations on keeping your streak of being wrong!

[Metallikus]

I dont think the spirit or intent of Non-CSR in VP was so that one guild could monopolize the content thru sheer willingness to play the griefing game, buy all the accounts keyed, cockblock trakanon, corpse camp people that entered VP like it was a PVP server, ect.

The spirit of the stance was to put fear into the players to not go in there all willy nilly thinking a gm would pull your corpse out when you found out how tough the zone was. The content was supposed to be hard. They wanted people to go in and be serious about cooperating and getting out alive together. Turns out, the only thing that can turn that place into a nightmare is players from another guild having free riegn to grief / train you for hours until you make it out or camp to try again the next day.

[Autotune]

The spirit of the stance was to put fear into the players to not go in there all willy nilly thinking a gm would pull your corpse out when you found out how tough the zone was.

I think it pretty much did this?

I've had a corpse rezzed but was blocked from zoning and and lost my XP and got no help because of it being VP.

I've had Hoshkarr drag me into the wall while charmed before raping me as well and got no help.

It's VP, deal with everything that comes with that imo or wait until velious when other guilds will be busy with other things.

[Alarti0001]

I dont think

FTFY

[Hollywood]

Well in Classic this rule wasn't set in place to encourage other guilds training each other was it? From what I understand that rule was in place to show how hard the zone was and that GM's would not help in any form of corpse retrieval of sort? At least on E'ci where I came from I do not remember seeing this type of VP here :P (although I am not entirely sure if any guild on that server actually completed VP in the Kunark era)

THIS is classic. The point of non intervention was not to give players/guilds free reign to be bullies or assholes.
For some reason that took on a loose translation when it was implemented here.

Vedan of Xegony you still around? Please comment to confirm.

[Elements]

I'll answer with, Rogean.

Congratulations on keeping your streak of being wrong!


And ill answer with your logic is still flawed. Whether or not someone decides to make up rules which violate conflicting policies does not mean the policies do not conflict in the first place, which is why this thread was created for discussion. Congratulations on trolling.

[Autotune]

And ill answer with your logic is still flawed. Whether or not someone decides to make up rules which violate conflicting policies does not mean the policies do not conflict in the first place, which is why this thread was created for discussion. Congratulations on trolling.

I gave you facts, not logic. Only one trolling is you "broseph".

[TWDL_Prexus]

THIS is classic. The point of non intervention was not to give players/guilds free reign to be bullies or assholes.
For some reason that took on a loose translation when it was implemented here.

Vedan of Xegony you still around? Please comment to confirm.

That is how I remember VP on live as well. GM's wouldn't be able to offer any sort of support for corpses etc.. However you still had to play within the rules of the PNP.

[Elements]

You respond to a request for logical explanation with admittedly illogical troll then claim not to troll. No one requested a recap of past decisions or current state of rules. Dont quote me if you arent responding to my comment then.

[Autotune]

You respond to a request for logical explanation with admittedly illogical troll then claim not to troll. No one requested a recap of past decisions or current state of rules. Dont quote me if you arent responding to my comment then.

Do you believe in God?

if no, Do you believe in Gravity?

[Naerron]

Pssh Seattle is full of Hipsters and hipster don't care enough about typos. Mannnn

Hipsters purposely edit their writing to put typos in it, typos are indie and cool these dayZZZZ

[Elements]

Do you believe in God?

if no, Do you believe in Gravity?

Please try harder.

[Autotune]

Please try harder.

Figures you'd ignore it. Anyhow, your logic is useless. The rule is set in stone and until God/Gravity changes the rule, that's what you must follow.

What you think/what you deem logical, is irrelevant.

[Splorf22]

If so we didn't use it afterwards. Didn't your momma tell you 2 wrongs dont make a right?

The only reasonable way to interpret this given the previous posts is "TMO exploiting/memblurring Talendor doesn't justify VD exploiting/memblurring VP". I await your spin sir.

[Alarti0001]

The only reasonable way to interpret this given the previous posts is "TMO exploiting/memblurring Talendor doesn't justify VD exploiting/memblurring VP". I await your spin sir.

No you are unreasonable. The only reasonable way to way to interpret this is "Past actions do not excuse future actions"

Keep spinning.

[Elements]

Figures you'd ignore it. Anyhow, your logic is useless. The rule is set in stone and until God/Gravity changes the rule, that's what you must follow.

What you think/what you deem logical, is irrelevant.

Is that all you've got? Cmon you can do better.

[Elements]

Figures you'd ignore it. Anyhow, your logic is useless. The rule is set in stone and until God/Gravity changes the rule, that's what you must follow.

What you think/what you deem logical, is irrelevant.

Translation: "The rule is the rule until somone changes the rule (dur). Don't come to the forums thinking you can discuss something that is illogical yet I regularly benefit from without me trolling you. -Autotune-"

Mmhmm.

[Toehammer]

ITT: Anthrax scare squashed by the TMO spin zone.

nothing to see here, move along

TMO still totally butthurt about VD memblur fest... hilarious

[Autotune]

Is that all you've got? Cmon you can do better.

Translation: "The rule is the rule until somone changes the rule (dur). Don't come to the forums thinking you can discuss something that is illogical yet I regularly benefit from without me trolling you. -Autotune-"

Mmhmm.


You seem to be mad that you've been wrong this entire time. Don't go killing yourself.

[quido]

Splorf the difference is that nobody knew blurring a dragon would reset it to full health when we did it to Talendor; we haven't done it since, though Coldblooded's kid did once to Sev on a full repop haha. We were just trying to KS a stolen pull.

[Triangle]

Pretty glad I am not involved in this raid scene. No changes that would effect TMO negatively have been implemented even when the changes have been warranted and requested by the majority of the community (whatever happened to the simulated patches w/ repops?). Many changes that effect everyone else negatively have been implemented (TMO gets to train everyone in VP but God forbid other people counter with mem blur). Giant crapfest in general with GM's more frequently than not catering to TMO.

[Autotune]

Splorf the difference is that nobody knew blurring a dragon would reset it to full health when we did it to Talendor; we haven't done it since, though Coldblooded's kid did once to Sev on a full repop haha. We were just trying to KS a stolen pull.

Not true, it was known prior to Talendor. It was known on a fay pull, just not as known.

[Autotune]

Pretty glad I am not involved in this raid scene. No changes that would effect TMO negatively have been implemented even when the changes have been warranted and requested by the majority of the community (whatever happened to the simulated patches w/ repops?). Many changes that effect everyone else negatively have been implemented (TMO gets to train everyone in VP but God forbid other people counter with mem blur). Giant crapfest in general with GM's more frequently than not catering to TMO.

memblurring wasn't the problem.

Using memblur to Fully heal raid targets was the problem. If you don't know, it's not supposed to have that effect.

[Elements]

You seem to be mad that you've been wrong this entire time. Don't go killing yourself.

Looks like you have run out of material and are now just repeating yourself. Come up with something fresh or move your troll tears along.

[falkun]

When the Non-CSR stance was taken on VP, there were two forces actively raiding it, and they were FORCED to coexist and CSR WAS enforced. After the initial 24 hours period, the gloves came off and all hell was allowed to break loose. Why were these two initial forces granted preferential treatment and forced cooperation but now the senior forces do not have forced cooperation with new forces wishing to enter?

TMO was grandfathered in to VP, but the other forces do not have that luxury. TMO was given a two week period of non-contested VP loot, and competing forces were not allowed to train them, so they could set up their CoH locations and also pre-camp any forces for training or recovery purposes. I'm sure FE, BDA, or VD (when it existed) would trade 48 hours of no outside raid mobs for the protection inside VP that was granted to IB and TMO when VP was first opened.

Corrected edits in italics.

Guilds participating in tonight's Veeshan's Peak opening need to be at the VP Door by 7 PM Eastern.

We will hold a discussion for the division of the mobs. Guilds that participate may not engage any raid mobs outside VP until 12:00 AM Monday.

After the first 24 hours of Veeshan's Peak, the zone will become a Non-Disputable Zone. CSR will not be responding or taking any action on disputes that involve the zone. You are on your own.

Veeshan's Peak will be released the same night the PvP Server goes live. This will be some time in early November. Keep an eye out for that announcement.

How it will work will be as follows. Any raid guild with sufficient force (Which I guess is only 2 of you right now, but things can always change) will need to be at the entrance to VP at a time and date to be specified. All guilds present will /random and will pick from the 6 mobs in order until all are chosen. They will then have until a second time that will be specified, most likely 24 hours, to kill their chosen mobs before they become free FTE.

Any guild that choses to raid VP on the night of opening will forfeit all other raid mobs for 48 hours. This is to encourage other smaller guilds a chance to experience raid encounters without them being slain minutes after spawning.

There's another quote discussing the alternating of VP raid targets for the first two spawns (two weeks, give or take variance), but I'm too lazy to hunt it down.

[Chedduh]

be careful there falkun, TMO actually thinks they earned VP

[falkun]

be careful there falkun, TMO actually thinks they earned VP

They busted their asses to get keys for VP prior to it opening. IB will claim they got lazy because they had been keyed for months and let TMO have keys, so believe whatever you claim. Either way, they were one of two forces keyed for VP when it opened. They were then GIVEN protected reign of the zone for 24 hours and GIVEN one full round of VP spawns. TMO has refused to acknowledge these FACTS for a year.

[Chedduh]

i was agreeing with you and you're right they don't acknowledge the facts of them getting that protection nor rarely admit to the multiple rotations allowing for keys/mobs/gear initially before their strangle hold that denies others the same

[Alarti0001]

Looks like you have run out of material and are now just repeating yourself. Come up with something fresh or move your troll tears along.

You have added no material other than telling people they have no material. Offer up something yourself trollolololol

[Alarti0001]

They busted their asses to get keys for VP prior to it opening. IB will claim they got lazy because they had been keyed for months and let TMO have keys, so believe whatever you claim. Either way, they were one of two forces keyed for VP when it opened. They were then GIVEN protected reign of the zone for 24 hours and GIVEN one full round of VP spawns. TMO has refused to acknowledge these FACTS for a year.

How so? Everyone knows the first day was Rogean's rules. You think that gave us an advantage somehow? I am waiting for your point. Do you have one?

[falkun]

How so? Everyone knows the first day was Rogean's rules. You think that gave us an advantage somehow? I am waiting for your point. Do you have one?

TMO was grandfathered in to VP, but the other forces do not have that luxury. TMO was given a two week period of non-contested VP loot, and competing forces were not allowed to train them, so they could set up their CoH locations and also pre-camp any forces for training or recovery purposes. I'm sure FE, BDA, or VD (when it existed) would trade 48 hours of no outside raid mobs for the protection inside VP that was granted to IB and TMO when VP was first opened.

Point was made before you asked the question.

[Fountree]

I love how much these Metallikus threads reek of desperation, the more you give in to these endless threads and let them get to you, the more power it gives the trolls. I guess I'll take this opportunity to give my opinion on the state of p99 instead of focusing on the narrow minded blah blah blah TMO sucks direction this poster always tries to pull the community towards.

Fact is, TMO at this point killed everything more times than Metallikus can probably count up to, and despite a population increase from curious new players, the server is content-wise at least, long dead. There hasn't been an update or even reset in months, Velious still has no firm beta date, and we're 2 years into Kunark. To say this server is healthy is a joke. And the problem that lies at the core isn't the squabbling amongst the top raid guilds, which is inevitable, it is the lack of progression in the game. Where is the content to experience for longtime players who have remained loyal and playing through the servers history? I understand that the GMs don't owe us anything, and yes I know this is a free server, but can we really call this server a fair emulation of live anymore? We're really at a tipping point now and the GMs should recognize that. So why are we nitpicking on whether or not VP should be a CSR zone or not when really 99% people don't really give a crap? Including TMO because we've farmed it dry for well over a year now? I say let's try to be more constructive and work together in getting this new content released as fast as possible instead, before we have more than 75% of the server with level 60s please.

[Alarti0001]

Point was made before you asked the question.

I'm sure TMO would trade having a GM in their guild like Bischbrotos for 1 round of VP spawns too.

I still don't get your point. BDA would probably trade alot of things to be in TMO's shoes.

[falkun]

threads reek of desperation
Pot - kettle - black:
Fact is, TMO at this point killed everything more times than Metallikus can probably count up to, and despite a population increase from curious new players, the server is content-wise at least, long dead. There hasn't been an update or even reset in months, Velious still has no firm beta date, and we're 2 years into Kunark. To say this server is healthy is a joke. And the problem that lies at the core isn't the squabbling amongst the top raid guilds, which is inevitable, it is the lack of progression in the game. Where is the content to experience for longtime players who have remained loyal and playing through the servers history? I understand that the GMs don't owe us anything, and yes I know this is a free server, but can we really call this server a fair emulation of live anymore? We're really at a tipping point now and the GMs should recognize that. So why are we nitpicking on whether or not VP should be a CSR zone or not when really 99% people don't really give a crap? Including TMO because we've farmed it dry for well over a year now? I say let's try to be more constructive and work together in getting this new content released as fast as possible instead, before we have more than 75% of the server with level 60s please.

Metal/Anthrax is complaining that players, the "visitors" to this grand creation by Nilbog& co., are artificially denying content to the rest of the server because they can. TMO are the only people on the server who have "killed content more times than Metallikus can probably count to", and that's because TMO are the only ones who wish to block content on that large of a scale. VD has folded, and BDA and FE, the other current high-end raid forces have openly shared content via assisting in kills (see FC's VS) and open raid content (see the last TMO raid-ban). This server does not need more content when less than 50% of the server has seen the content. I argue that if you feel you have run out of content to conquer, then you are conquering content too quickly, not that it is being released too slowly. Conquer content slower and you won't have this predicament you are in. I still have lots of things to experience in Kunark like obtaining L60, my epic, and VP.

Please stop desperately whining for Velious, there is still content here in Kunark (at least if you aren't in TMO). You've put yourself into the predicament you are whining about.

If you've "farmed [VP] dry for over a year", why are you still so desperate to kill Trakanon to keep other guilds out of VP? Why are you so eager to train VP if you've "farmed it dry for over a year"? TMO is the only force that has "farmed it dry for over a year" and yet TMO still battles for VP via Trakanon and training inside the zone.

I still don't get your point. BDA would probably trade alot of things to be in TMO's shoes.
Take off your tinfoil hat.

We wouldn't trade our morals. When TMO was banned for two weeks, BDA offered up every mob available, even Trakanon.

Fountree and TMO's solution to shitty server: give us Velious so we can poopsock somewhere else. We're bored here, but we kill it anyways because that's all there is.
BDA, FE, other guild's solution to a shitty server: Shit's 12 years old, can't we all just get along?

You decide what you feel is better for the server.

[Itap]

I love how much these Metallikus threads reek of desperation, the more you give in to these endless threads and let them get to you, the more power it gives the trolls. I guess I'll take this opportunity to give my opinion on the state of p99 instead of focusing on the narrow minded blah blah blah TMO sucks direction this poster always tries to pull the community towards.

Fact is, TMO at this point killed everything more times than Metallikus can probably count up to, and despite a population increase from curious new players, the server is content-wise at least, long dead. There hasn't been an update or even reset in months, Velious still has no firm beta date, and we're 2 years into Kunark. To say this server is healthy is a joke. And the problem that lies at the core isn't the squabbling amongst the top raid guilds, which is inevitable, it is the lack of progression in the game. Where is the content to experience for longtime players who have remained loyal and playing through the servers history? I understand that the GMs don't owe us anything, and yes I know this is a free server, but can we really call this server a fair emulation of live anymore? We're really at a tipping point now and the GMs should recognize that. So why are we nitpicking on whether or not VP should be a CSR zone or not when really 99% people don't really give a crap? Including TMO because we've farmed it dry for well over a year now? I say let's try to be more constructive and work together in getting this new content released as fast as possible instead, before we have more than 75% of the server with level 60s please.

Great post, I agree 100%.

We all know (and even you admitted) that TMO has farmed this content to death, so why not let other guilds a chance to "farm it dry"? There's no need to prove anything anymore, TMO is the top guild.

So give other people a chance to experience the content?

[Fountree]

Actually, on any sane comparison to the timeline of live, you're dead wrong Falk and u know it. Between 1999-2001 we were well into velious already (2 years, same amount of time Kunark has been released for with pretty much nothing else). So I can't take anything you say seriously... You've had plenty of time to play in Kunark (and will continue to for the rest of the server's history)

[falkun]

Actually, on any sane comparison to the timeline of live, you're dead wrong Falk and u know it. Between 1999-2001 we were well into velious already (2 years, same amount of time Kunark has been released for with pretty much nothing else). So I can't take anything you say seriously... You've had plenty of time to play in Kunark (and will continue to for the rest of the server's history)

I know when the expansions were released. You know that TMO overgears Kunark and will likely overgear Velious due to being near-100% BiS. You also have a larger raid force than was classic and many more accounts per player than was classic. All of these facts are true (both mine and yours), but I still have things to do in Kunark. That is because I'm not trying to DOMINATE Kunark and other guilds, but I'm trying to have fun in Everquest. I argue that makes me, and those like me that still wish to experience Kunark content, less desperate than those like you who still artificially deny Kunark content while whining about Kunark content being old and demanding new content in Velious. You are burning both ends of the candle and then whining that you've used up the entire candle. Sorry, you don't get a new one, Fountree.

Fountree, do you realize that within a single post you have simultaneously complained that "VP is old" while also argued that training should remain within VP?

[Zeelot]

Ever thought that we like raiding because we are a raiding guild? It is the reason why we kill things. We are not trying to block anyone. Our playstyle just doesnt match with some people's 'lets all be family guilds that get along' mentality.

[falkun]

Then continue to raid for the enjoyment. You haven't "farmed it dry" if you are enjoying it though. Fountree sounds desperate for Velious. I suggest he either takes a break or finds a new motivation to raid, like yours: for the enjoyment.

[Zeelot]

Reason I am still enjoying things is because I login casually. If TMO really wanted to deprive the server, you would see me on every day and other guilds would barely be getting anything.

[Fountree]

Fountree, do you realize that within a single post you have simultaneously complained that "VP is old" while also argued that training should remain within VP?

Show me where I argued that training should remain within VP please. I just said people (including GMs) probably don't really care and that there are bigger issues at hand here.

[falkun]

And what does that have to do with the OP? Do you log in to "casually" train in VP? How is your casual logging going to be altered by any change in VP?

For me, as I've already mentioned, a change in VP would allow me a better opportunity to experience a part of Kunark that I haven't yet. Fountree is "desperately" trying to prove that Velious is the solution and not VP, but I'm arguing that the server atmosphere requires a change, not a new location for old arguments. Releasing Velious is like Congress putting off sequestration until March: same problem, new timeline. Why can't we be better than Congress and solve the problem now?

[Splorf22]

Fact is, TMO at this point killed everything more times than Metallikus can probably count up to, and despite a population increase from curious new players, the server is content-wise at least, long dead. There hasn't been an update or even reset in months, Velious still has no firm beta date, and we're 2 years into Kunark. To say this server is healthy is a joke. And the problem that lies at the core isn't the squabbling amongst the top raid guilds, which is inevitable, it is the lack of progression in the game. Where is the content to experience for longtime players who have remained loyal and playing through the servers history? I understand that the GMs don't owe us anything, and yes I know this is a free server, but can we really call this server a fair emulation of live anymore? We're really at a tipping point now and the GMs should recognize that. So why are we nitpicking on whether or not VP should be a CSR zone or not when really 99% people don't really give a crap? Including TMO because we've farmed it dry for well over a year now? I say let's try to be more constructive and work together in getting this new content released as fast as possible instead, before we have more than 75% of the server with level 60s please.

I agree with this 100%; I'm just not sure you guys do. If you guys are really so bored you'd be having invited tours to VP and leveling up chars on live to help Kanras/Nilbog with their list of stuff. Crazyeyes is my hero!

[Zeelot]

Me logging in casually gives the server a better shot at beating TMO to raid targets. TMOs overall organization and efficiency is much higher when I put the time in. Many officers including myself are just chilling and letting other people take the reigns right now. It is good practice for them and also helps our competition gain a foothold + morale by winning at races for targets.

[falkun]

I agree with this 100%; I'm just not sure you guys do. If you guys are really so bored you'd be having invited tours to VP and leveling up chars on live to help Kanras/Nilbog with their list of stuff. Crazyeyes is my hero!

This.

[Autotune]

When the Non-CSR stance was taken on VP, there were two forces actively raiding it, and they were FORCED to coexist and CSR WAS enforced. After the initial 24 hours period, the gloves came off and all hell was allowed to break loose. Why were these two initial forces granted preferential treatment and forced cooperation but now the senior forces do not have forced cooperation with new forces wishing to enter?

TMO was grandfathered in to VP, but the other forces do not have that luxury. TMO was given a two week period of non-contested VP loot, and competing forces were not allowed to train them, so they could set up their CoH locations and also pre-camp any forces for training or recovery purposes. I'm sure FE, BDA, or VD (when it existed) would trade 48 hours of no outside raid mobs for the protection inside VP that was granted to IB and TMO when VP was first opened.

Corrected edits in italics.





There's another quote discussing the alternating of VP raid targets for the first two spawns (two weeks, give or take variance), but I'm too lazy to hunt it down.

Why was it like this? It was obviously so IB could get loot and TMO wouldn't train them to all hell in back.

obviously.


Less obviously, it was for Nilbog (and Rogean) to see VP in action and to see the two guilds test the dragons. If you think TMO needed a few more keys to train the ever living shit out of IB in VP ( VP was held back ) you're completely mistaken.

Less conspiracy tone, more idk.

IB and TMO decided to keep the rotation for awhile, then let it run out, then decided to reinforce it, then one decided not to, then decided to again. The only guild that was ever shown to need the rotation of the two guilds, was IB.


As for the other guilds not getting "protection", the other guilds weren't ready for VP when it opened. I'm sure everyone that starts playing now would love a guise, manastone, or prenerf fungi staff.

[falkun]

You can offer any and all reasons you'd like, I'm not disputing them. But you are admitting you had two weeks of "testing dragons" without raid interference and you had a period of no training within VP. These opportunities were handed to you by CSR, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

[Autotune]

You can offer any and all reasons you'd like, I'm not disputing them. But you are admitting you had two weeks of "testing dragons" without raid interference and you had a period of no training within VP. These opportunities were handed to you by CSR, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

Why do I have to admit anything? I think it's well documented, it's not a big secret that it took place or why it took place.

I mean, people were handed guises (other illusions) and pre-nerf staffs at some GM events. Should people expect that to happen all the time? Should people get pissed when they aren't given those as choices? Basically, you're upset at an event that was put in place by Nilbog and Rogean.

again, less conspiracy please.

[Zeelot]

That is true. We were also the only 2 guilds with keys at release. If you had the keys you would have had the same opportunity.

[Alarti0001]

Ever thought that we like raiding because we are a raiding guild? It is the reason why we kill things. We are not trying to block anyone. Our playstyle just doesnt match with some people's 'lets all be family guilds that get along' mentality.

[Alarti0001]

I agree with this 100%; I'm just not sure you guys do. If you guys are really so bored you'd be having invited tours to VP and leveling up chars on live to help Kanras/Nilbog with their list of stuff. Crazyeyes is my hero!

We are. I've even given my live account information out so we can have more testers.

[arsenalpow]

The only argument for having a FFA in VP is "it's classic" but that's not even the spirit of the rule. The initial no CSR involvement rule was to provide a warning to guilds attempting VP that if they wipe in VP there could be a potentially exhaustive corpse recovery. It wasn't meant to provide a means for people to train and grief each other.

Extending the normal rules to VP benefits the entire server. TMO would have to devote more effort to defending their turf and other guilds would devote more effort to defeating that content. This would allow other guilds to compete for content that naturally opens up. If there were a server reset tonight TMO would try to get VS and Trak simultaneously then attempt to pick off other kills if they're still up. Hate/Fear would be a shit show if someone else wasn't quick enough and Tal/Fay/Sev would be the primary targets of the smaller guilds. This is because TMO knows they can leave VP up and just send trainers to delay other guilds while they scoop up loot. If VP wasn't a trainfest then BDA or FE could go directly for VP and TMO would have to either concede mobs or race allowing other guilds to snag higher targets like VS or Trak.

Why can't we change this?? The only party that wants VP to have trains is TMO. Without trains the ENTIRE server benefits. This seems like a no-brainer.

[Triangle]

If you've "farmed [VP] dry for over a year", why are you still so desperate to kill Trakanon to keep other guilds out of VP? Why are you so eager to train VP if you've "farmed it dry for over a year"? TMO is the only force that has "farmed it dry for over a year" and yet TMO still battles for VP via Trakanon and training inside the zone....

...Fountree and TMO's solution to shitty server: give us Velious so we can poopsock somewhere else. We're bored here, but we kill it anyways because that's all there is...

Bump for quality. Read above please.

[Zeelot]

If it wasn't in the spirit of the rule then why was Rogean /popcorn'ing and watching the action when IB decided to break the rotation. It was obviously part of their intent because they said raid disputes would not be dealt with in there. VP is extremely easy to train, even by accident. Enforcing CSR against training in VP would be impossible. Half of TMO cant run through the zone without aggroing something. You think your guys are going to flawlessly navigate VP and never set off aoes or cause trains that kill others? Rules in there would hurt you guys more than TMO because you would be getting suspended for every aoe set off on a puller or raid, which is guaranteed to happen even if you try to play clean in there.

If you want to make the live servers argument, on fennin, GMs *never* dealt with anything that happened in VP, including training. I was with the server first VP crew and raided it well into velious. Competition came in during velious with trains and all, no CSR intervention ever happened.

[Bigcountry23]

If it wasn't in the spirit of the rule then why was Rogean /popcorn'ing and watching the action when IB decided to break the rotation. It was obviously part of their intent because they said raid disputes would not be dealt with in there.

I think he was referring to Spirit vs intent on live.

[Alarti0001]

The only argument for having a FFA in VP is "it's classic" but that's not even the spirit of the rule. The initial no CSR involvement rule was to provide a warning to guilds attempting VP that if they wipe in VP there could be a potentially exhaustive corpse recovery. It wasn't meant to provide a means for people to train and grief each other.

Extending the normal rules to VP benefits the entire server. TMO would have to devote more effort to defending their turf and other guilds would devote more effort to defeating that content. This would allow other guilds to compete for content that naturally opens up. If there were a server reset tonight TMO would try to get VS and Trak simultaneously then attempt to pick off other kills if they're still up. Hate/Fear would be a shit show if someone else wasn't quick enough and Tal/Fay/Sev would be the primary targets of the smaller guilds. This is because TMO knows they can leave VP up and just send trainers to delay other guilds while they scoop up loot. If VP wasn't a trainfest then BDA or FE could go directly for VP and TMO would have to either concede mobs or race allowing other guilds to snag higher targets like VS or Trak.

Why can't we change this?? The only party that wants VP to have trains is TMO. Without trains the ENTIRE server benefits. This seems like a no-brainer.



Are you on the same drugs Brad McQuaid was on. Thinking you can read the minds of these people. Fucking crackpot.

They specified no CSR intervention not no corpse recovery.

[Zeelot]

At the bottom of my last reply I talk about how it actually was on live. Spirit/intent aside, the way it is now is the way it was. The only difference (at least from my server) is that TMO was the only guild in VP til velious. Doesn't change fact that trains ensued as soon as other guilds got there.

[arsenalpow]

I don't think I've seen anything like "Train the shit out of each other in VP". Everything I've seen has referred to it being a grave warning to people who might have entered VP before they were ready. Maybe your experience on classic leaned more towards no rules whatsoever, but here we've already had Anthrax tossed for looting an item that was rotting (or maybe it wasn't) Adriana for that sketch eyeball ruling, and the memblur ruling fiasco. This server isn't classic but it strives to be when it can. In this instance I think removing the no CSR involvement policy does nothing but benefit the server.

I don't even think VP with rules would be worse than Hate/Fear because most times raids would be at the ent or up above in picture room and be unlikely to have adds, insread of the usual shitshow in hate/fear where accidental trains are much more prevalent.

[Zeelot]

Even if there were rules. How can you evaluate whether a player is 'pulling' an aoe wurm right as an oppositions puller goes near a few mobs in order to break his invis or whether it was malicious.
I have been killed by my own guildies numerous times because they do something stupid like accidentally aggro see invis + set off ae fear right as I run past drakes.

If VP had rules, just running through and accidentally aggroing a see invis could become grounds for suspension.

Also, who is to regulate guilds from sharing similar camp spots and fighting the dragon in a spot where the other raid gets killed by aoes.

[Elements]

If it wasn't in the spirit of the rule then why was Rogean /popcorn'ing and watching the action when IB decided to break the rotation. It was obviously part of their intent because they said raid disputes would not be dealt with in there. VP is extremely easy to train, even by accident. Enforcing CSR against training in VP would be impossible. Half of TMO cant run through the zone without aggroing something. You think your guys are going to flawlessly navigate VP and never set off aoes or cause trains that kill others? Rules in there would hurt you guys more than TMO because you would be getting suspended for every aoe set off on a puller or raid, which is guaranteed to happen even if you try to play clean in there.

If you want to make the live servers argument, on fennin, GMs *never* dealt with anything that happened in VP, including training. I was with the server first VP crew and raided it well into velious. Competition came in during velious with trains and all, no CSR intervention ever happened.

No CSR intervention. So you concede GMs should not be bothered by petitions of ninja looting in VP.

[Autotune]

I don't think I've seen anything like "Train the shit out of each other in VP". Everything I've seen has referred to it being a grave warning to people who might have entered VP before they were ready. Maybe your experience on classic leaned more towards no rules whatsoever, but here we've already had Anthrax tossed for looting an item that was rotting (or maybe it wasn't) Adriana for that sketch eyeball ruling, and the memblur ruling fiasco. This server isn't classic but it strives to be when it can. In this instance I think removing the no CSR involvement policy does nothing but benefit the server.

I don't even think VP with rules would be worse than Hate/Fear because most times raids would be at the ent or up above in picture room and be unlikely to have adds, insread of the usual shitshow in hate/fear where accidental trains are much more prevalent.

memblur ruling fiasco? are you suggesting memblur was supposed to heal targets and that getting it fixed was wrong?

[Zeelot]

Lol. Ninja looting is a p99 serverwide rule and not part of this discussion. An argument in favor of ninjalooting anywhere is stupid anyways. We are talking about 'raid disputes,' training in particular what we are talking about.

[SamwiseRed]

so glad i dont have to deal with man babies over raid content. pathetic really.

[arsenalpow]

How is this currently any different from any other kill in the game? There's already accidental trains, common engagement spots (TT zoneline for Sev?), etc etc

[Elements]

Lol. Ninja looting is a p99 serverwide rule and not part of this discussion. An argument in favor of ninjalooting anywhere is stupid anyways. We are talking about 'raid disputes,' training in particular what we are talking about.

No training is also a server wide rule yet you cant make an argument for it without falling on the crutch of no CSR intervention.

[arsenalpow]

Too lazy to quote - concerning memblur, I'm saying it was a fiasco because it was allowed for a long time and then it wasn't. It's obviously stupid and not working as intended.

[Ouzin]

A lot of this banter could be solved by instancing zones with high end content. That would kill the community though. All the trolls which feed off these disputes would leave. All that would be left is the rest of the server to enjoy high end loots.


Actually, that sounds pretty nice.

[Autotune]

Lol. Ninja looting is a p99 serverwide rule and not part of this discussion. An argument in favor of ninjalooting anywhere is stupid anyways. We are talking about 'raid disputes,' training in particular what we are talking about.

Rogean made a statement about ninjalooting during the time that TMO and IB were going at it in VP.

He explicitly stated it was cheap, cowardly and low for any guild to do it.

This was during the time that TMO and IB were training each other and going for raid targets. TMO downed a few dragons (PD, etc) while IB failed to and then, when they failed to kill or stop TMO, went on to try and ninjaloot because it was their last hope of denying the loot to TMO.

So, basically, regardless of what anyone thinks or deems logical, the law was set.

You can't ninjaloot, you can't exploit, you can't go into VP and send racist hate tells to people/gms, you can't go into VP and use SEQ/MQ, etc.

training is allowed, kill stealing is allowed, memblurring is allowed (as long as it's not fully healing targets), pull stealing is allowed, etc.

(not a response to you directly, Zee, just adding.)

Too lazy to quote - concerning memblur, I'm saying it was a fiasco because it was allowed for a long time and then it wasn't. It's obviously stupid and not working as intended.

Aight, thought you had gone off the deep end.

[arsenalpow]

A lot of this banter could be solved by instancing zones with high end content. That would kill the community though. All the trolls which feed off these disputes would leave. All that would be left is the rest of the server to enjoy high end loots.


Actually, that sounds pretty nice.

I don't mind competing, I just don't want to compete under an absurd set of rules that are completely contrary to the rest of the server's rules. I've listed numerous reasons as to why changing VP would be a boon for the server, I've tried to present the argument logically and I'd like to see some discourse opposing this position aside from typical response of "NERT CLASSERC!"

[Zeelot]

Training during raids is different than training individually or in a group circumstance. The difference being that entire guilds can be punished for the actions of leadership + the merit of who gets the kill can also be affected.

Training outside a raid scenario is different because it does not involve stopping 20+ players from getting something that only spawns once/week-ish.

Raid disputes are limited to 3 main things imo: training during *raid encounters*, FTE determinations, and kiting.

There are raid rules for these specific things. If you don't realize this by now you are a lost cause!

[Elements]

Rogean made a statement about ninjalooting during the time that TMO and IB were going at it in VP.

He explicitly stated it was cheap, cowardly and low for any guild to do it.

This was during the time that TMO and IB were training each other and going for raid targets. TMO downed a few dragons (PD, etc) while IB failed to and then, when they failed to kill or stop TMO, went on to try and ninjaloot because it was their last hope of denying the loot to TMO.

So, basically, regardless of what anyone thinks or deems logical, the law was set.

You can't ninjaloot, you can't exploit, you can't go into VP and send racist hate tells to people/gms, you can't go into VP and use SEQ/MQ, etc.

training is allowed, kill stealing is allowed, memblurring is allowed (as long as it's not fully healing targets), pull stealing is allowed, etc.

(not a response to you directly, Zee, just adding.)



Aight, thought you had gone off the deep end.



Quote or it didnt happen. Not stickied in the server rules or global rules. Either way no one cares. Nobody wants to ninja loot TMOs kills. Its just an example of how arbitrarily these rules are made.

[Autotune]

Quote or it didnt happen. Not stickied in the server rules or global rules. Either way no one cares. Nobody wants to ninja loot TMOs kills. Its just an example of how arbitrarily these rules are made.

Ask Rogean yourself, "broseph", on how he feels about ninjalooting.

It was in-game and I doubt anyone cared enough to "SS" it for proof.

You can almost always find Rogean on p99 irc

[sanluen]

I still don't get your point. BDA would probably trade alot of things to be in TMO's shoes.

Quite the opposite, I would give away everyone on all my characters to keep from becoming TMO.

[Elements]

Training during raids is different than training individually or in a group circumstance. The difference being that entire guilds can be punished for the actions of leadership + the merit of who gets the kill can also be affected.

Training outside a raid scenario is different because it does not involve stopping 20+ players from getting something that only spawns once/week-ish.

Raid disputes are limited to 3 main things imo: training during *raid encounters*, FTE determinations, and kiting.

There are raid rules for these specific things. If you don't realize this by now you are a lost cause!

Sorry but your made up clauses and interpretations are not included in the stickied Global Rules located in the library and therefore I give zero f*cks. Training a zone of 20 newbs whose playtime spawns maybe once a week and training a raid of 20 going after a week long spawn target is the same thing... training. By the way arent youcurrently suspended for repeatedly breaking the rules? So why should anyone care what you think when youclearly have no regard for the others on this server?

[arsenalpow]

I have no problem with being punished as a guild. In fact most times I'd prefer guilds be punished over singular parties, but that's something else entirely.

I don't think you'd have much of a kiting problem in VP so you can probably rule that out. I don't think training will be an issue because I feel like raid forces won't stray from the pull spots, particularly the entrance of VP, or they'll just be cothed to a kill location because that's much easier than herding 40+ cats through the minefield that is VP. FTE probably won't be an issue because it will be much like a Fay encounter, tag/pull inc log in ASAP.

[Autotune]

Quite the opposite, I would give away everyone on all my characters to keep from becoming TMO.

Don't think he means to be like tmo, just more to be where TMO is. Just because you wear someone else's shoes, doesn't mean you have to walk like them.

[Alarti0001]

Quote or it didnt happen. Not stickied in the server rules or global rules. Either way no one cares. Nobody wants to ninja loot TMOs kills. Its just an example of how arbitrarily these rules are made.

Really? Ask perun about that.

[Zeelot]

I am suspended? Lol, first I have heard. I thought I would give a common sense explanation on what rules are raid rules and which ones aren't. Obviously is not hard to distinguish because raid rules apply when there are raids going on. If you need a rule faq to know what constitutes a raid, go ask Rogean.

[Alarti0001]

Quite the opposite, I would give away everyone on all my characters to keep from becoming TMO.

Lol I love the vitriol and hyperbole.

[Autotune]

Really? Ask perun about that.

Wasn't perun who was trying to ninja loot at that time iirc.

[Alarti0001]

Wasn't perun who was trying to ninja loot at that time iirc.

Nah he ninja looted CT.

[Alarti0001]

I am suspended? Lol, first I have heard. I thought I would give a common sense explanation on what rules are raid rules and which ones aren't. Obviously is not hard to distinguish because raid rules apply when there are raids going on. If you need a rule faq to know what constitutes a raid, go ask Rogean.

Ya you are obviously suspended! Just like Fauss. Just ask Chest or Jarnauga.

[Zeelot]

We don't coth through VP chest. I prefer herding 40 people through the zone while I train everything out of the way. Rules would totally impact style because I would have to care where that train ends up. Coth is a waste of time.

[arsenalpow]

I'm betting Ascention is confusing you with Sentenza, and how do I request my face to face with Fauss the Great & Powerful

[arsenalpow]

We don't coth through VP chest. I prefer herding 40 people through the zone while I train everything out of the way. Rules would totally impact style because I would have to care where that train ends up. Coth is a waste of time.

How is that any different than training mobs away from Inny for a split in hate? You still have to account for that train.

[Alarti0001]

I'm betting Ascention is confusing you with Sentenza, and how do I request my face to face with Fauss the Great & Powerful

Still believes Fauss is suspended. The power of faith people.

Chest would you like to make a 100k wager that he isn't suspended?

[Fountree]

So this thread has done a good job in making me disdain BDA more than I already do, and the opinions expressed wherein by (especially BDAs leadership) have solidified my opinion that you are all a bunch of whining babies (I've said this before but after month after month of these threads, how can you deny it) who want loot and will try to get loot by any means necessary and will continue to cry until they get exactly their way on everything. Again, no matter how much they say it, these people do not have noble intentions for the server, they just want an easier way to get Kunark loot and want to bring TMO down by discrediting and hounding our members in and out of game constantly! Conspiracy theories abound. I just hope most of your leaderships' nitpicky sobs for change after change continues to fall on deaf ears, because your decisions to poke and prod every little thing TMO does is having the opposite effect that you (publicly at least) intend, it's making the end game more divisive, more heated and more competitive (omg!) From now on, I will not be helping BDA members in game and won't willfully blind myself to your guild tags as I have for my entire tenure on P99. You guys are far worse than IB ever was, even though they were elitist they got shit done!

[Fountree]

Also, please move this to RnF because it has no place on server chat, this is another attempt by BDA to publicly call out TMO, expect the next one in 12-24 hours.

[Zeelot]

NPCs in hate do not AOE and they path much better. Like I have been saying, the main problem with a rule situation in there = AOEs.

Take this hypothetical - I go into PD room to pull, a monk in another guild is watching me and also ready to pull. Meanwhile not watching the see invis ae wurm about to path into him from behind. Just as I am about to pull it aggros him, ae fears, and kills us both.

If VP has rules then the monk in question should get suspended for killing me and not being aware.

If thats how you want it to be!

[arsenalpow]

I just want the traditional rules of the server to extend to VP, no tears here. I feel that may other guilds besides BDA and FE would benefit from this as well.

[Autotune]

NPCs in hate do not AOE and they path much better. Like I have been saying, the main problem with a rule situation in there = AOEs.

Take this hypothetical - I go into PD room to pull, a monk in another guild is watching me and also ready to pull. Meanwhile not watching the see invis ae wurm about to path into him from behind. Just as I am about to pull it aggros him, ae fears, and kills us both.

If VP has rules then the monk in question should get suspended for killing me and not being aware.

If thats how you want it to be!

psh, everyone loves to get wurms thru walls!

[Fountree]

Chest, your guild is a disgrace. I'm out of this thread :P

[Autotune]

I just want the traditional rules of the server to extend to VP, no tears here. I feel that may other guilds besides BDA and FE would benefit from this as well.

I would love to see the mass crying after 3 guilds stepped into VP and tried to pull a dragon or 2.

Chest, your guild is a disgrace. I'm out of this thread :P

please. stop. posting.

[arsenalpow]

Yes, I'd like accountability in VP. If one of my monks (or me!) did something stupid like fire off an AE and kill an opposing guild puller I'd be inclined to concede the mob at that point, but that's how I operate.

[Fountree]

Why? move this trash to RnF. And I'd say to you: Please. Start. Playing. We could use an active necro who cared about the end-game.

[Autotune]

Why? move this trash to RnF. And I'd say to you: Please. Start. Playing. We could use an active necro who cared about the end-game.

B/c you're gonna get forum banned and you tend to get carried away lol.

Also, I was going to but my account holder hasn't responded to me lately :(

[Fountree]

The only people getting carried away are the people who constantly post garbage like this to the server chat. They know what direction it's going to go in. I'm just responding in earnest...

[Joroz]

Non CSR rule is to save guide resources from constantly saving stupid people that zoned in without support/raid. It wasn't to create an open pvp type battle field. Sooner or later this server will come to terms that its rules need to be tailored to what works best with a volunteer staff instead of hugging onto what was perceived as rules of the era.

[falkun]

This is a valid discussion about server topics. The only reason its going towards RNF is because of posters like you adding nothing but whining. Even Zeelot adds constructively to this debate without whining. If you have nothing to say, do as you stated and get "out of this thread".

If you think BDA is a disgrace, there are plenty of RNF posts for you to debase us.

EDIT: Joroz, there is bro love here.

[Fountree]

TMO was grandfathered in to VP, but the other forces do not have that luxury. TMO was given a two week period of non-contested VP loot, and competing forces were not allowed to train them, so they could set up their CoH locations and also pre-camp any forces for training or recovery purposes. I'm sure FE, BDA, or VD (when it existed) would trade 48 hours of no outside raid mobs for the protection inside VP that was granted to IB and TMO when VP was first opened.

Yes Falkun, this was a serious discussion about CSR in VP and not about how TMO gets unfair advantages. Sorry to derail this enlightening and objective discussion

[Fountree]

Actually, you could see by post #2 where this was going. And yes it's intentional. RNF plz

[Crazyeye]

I agree with this 100%; I'm just not sure you guys do. If you guys are really so bored you'd be having invited tours to VP and leveling up chars on live to help Kanras/Nilbog with their list of stuff. Crazyeyes is my hero!

;)

[Maze513]

Non CSR rule is to save guide resources from constantly saving stupid people that zoned in without support/raid. It wasn't to create an open pvp type battle field. Sooner or later this server will come to terms that its rules need to be tailored to what works best with a volunteer staff instead of hugging onto what was perceived as rules of the era.

if GMs hardly have time to handle the raid scene as it stands how would adding 6 more dragons in a zone with bad pathing gonna help them? Seem to me that applying the world PvE rules to VP would only stand ton INCREASE the need for GM interventions. Just my 2 lava drakes

[Joroz]

if GMs hardly have time to handle the raid scene as it stands how would adding 6 more dragons in a zone with bad pathing gonna help them? Seem to me that applying the world PvE rules to VP would only stand ton INCREASE the need for GM interventions. Just my 2 lava drakes

thinking too narrow... they have so much work keeping the peace in the raid scene because they don't permanently ban the people doing douche moves... ban a couple people and watch the mood change from "who cares" to "shit i don't want to loose this toon". the non CSR VP wasn't for guilds to duke it out... it was because people are generally stupid and making a zone like vp seem harder than the rest meant making a real danger of loosing your gear if you want to be stupid.

[Llodd]

NPCs in hate do not AOE and they path much better. Like I have been saying, the main problem with a rule situation in there = AOEs.

Take this hypothetical - I go into PD room to pull, a monk in another guild is watching me and also ready to pull. Meanwhile not watching the see invis ae wurm about to path into him from behind. Just as I am about to pull it aggros him, ae fears, and kills us both.

If VP has rules then the monk in question should get suspended for killing me and not being aware.

If thats how you want it to be!

Or, alternatively, both get banned.

Eventually guilds would have to actually learn to cooperate somehow in the shitfest that is VP.

I can see why some guilds wouldn't like that eh ;)

Btw, why is coth considered useless in VP?

[Gnomebert]

Awesome thread would read again. A++

Back on tallon I remember growing up thinking man those blue kids finally get a whole zone on each server to experience how fun training and xp killing each other is like us red folk do everywhere. Rooting those elves fleeing from dvinn never got old.

[Maze513]

Cant just ban everyone you dont like. You know the Nazi's wanted the Jew's banned. =p Sooner or later you just gonna make the server so vanilla it will have the pop of Red. And hell if you like that just go to Epic Emu or EQ Maz where everyone is nice and cuddly

[Joroz]

Cant just ban everyone you dont like. You know the Nazi's wanted the Jew's banned. =p Sooner or later you just gonna make the server so vanilla it will have the pop of Red. And hell if you like that just go to Epic Emu or EQ Maz where everyone is nice and cuddly

I agree, but there are bad apples. You won't convince me that all the crazy shit that goes on this server is a result of good decisions executed badly... some of them start off as bad decisions with bad intentions by individuals that if they lost the privilege to play here would only benefit the community.

[Zeelot]

Or, alternatively, both get banned.

Eventually guilds would have to actually learn to cooperate somehow in the shitfest that is VP.

I can see why some guilds wouldn't like that eh ;)

Btw, why is coth considered useless in VP?


Coth'ing a whole raid takes a lot more time than just running them to the pull spot. I wouldn't say it's totally useless. It's useful for noobs who don't know the zone. I've made a point of teaching everyone in my guild how to run it though.

[Handull]

Ninja looting is not a raid issue, but a server rule infraction and is dealt with on an individual basis.

Its funny, Rogaens Server Rules post doesn't really mention ninja looting, but it does say:

"3) Global Server Rules

These rules apply to both servers.

Training
Training can be defined as the intentional manipulation of NPC Placement and Aggro in such a way that causes it to attack another player that it wouldn't have otherwise if at it's normal spawn location. The most basic form of this is "dumping" mobs near another player or party and escaping via a form of teleportation or death. Intentional or not, this is against the rules. This rule is not limited to the basic example given, as there are many different forms of training players will use. You take all responsibility for mobs that you aggro. If you are trying to escape from a pack of NPC's but there is another group in your way, do not run through them. Even if your intention is not to train them, it would inevitable cause this and you may be subject to disciplinary. It is recommended that you take the death (Your responsibility for aggroing the mobs) and request a resurrection from nearby players.

If you happen to accidentally train a group of players, please immedietely notify the staff via /petition that you have done so by accident. Apologize to the players in question, and assist them with any recovery needed. If the staff hears about your train before you tell them, intention is no longer an excuse. (Repeated unintentional trains will still result in disciplinary action)."

Then of course we have from the raid rules:

"Raid Rules / FAQ
Non-Disputable Zones
Zones deemed Non-Disputable will have no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones. Currently the only zone that this applies to is Veeshan's Peak."

I'm not looking to pull GMs into this, just looking to stir things up with this thread. So now whats the difference between a raid rule and a server rule? thanks!

[Enygma]

Non-Disputable Zones
Zones deemed Non-Disputable will have no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones. Currently the only zone that this applies to is Veeshan's Peak.

Think about what value there is in upholding this stance. Is it time for change? Discuss.

Absolutely not - what it is time for is Metallikus to leave the server and stop posting stupid bullshit about how he can't get any raid content cuz hes a bad.

[Metallikus]

Absolutely not - what it is time for is Metallikus to leave the server and stop posting stupid bullshit about how he can't get any raid content cuz hes a bad.

lol who is this guy? apparently my number 1 fan....

[Thana8088]

I've made a point of teaching everyone in my guild how to run it though.

It's true. Even I know my way through VP and I still get lost in Sol B. :(

[Fazlazen]

Splorf the difference is that nobody knew blurring a dragon would reset it to full health when we did it to Talendor; we haven't done it since, though Coldblooded's kid did once to Sev on a full repop haha. We were just trying to KS a stolen pull.

true story, I was under talendor on moondogg timing my nuke with Qados' blur at 1%... the rest is history!

[Fazlazen]

. I've made a point of teaching everyone in my guild how to run it though.

lol good luck with that.

[Fazlazen]

It's true. Even I know my way through VP and I still get lost in Sol B. :(

lies!

[Zeelot]

Faz, I'm the only raid leader whos successfully led 40 of our people through with 0 deaths! Luckily you weren't there to train us that time.

[Elements]

I am suspended? Lol, first I have heard. I thought I would give a common sense explanation on what rules are raid rules and which ones aren't. Obviously is not hard to distinguish because raid rules apply when there are raids going on. If you need a rule faq to know what constitutes a raid, go ask Rogean.

Aye I was confusing you with Sentenza. I appologize for painting you with the same brush as your fellow guild mate.

[Elements]

We should be able to agree that there is a difference between accidentally training while pulling or positioning yourraid force and having just a few toons in zone without the capability to take down a raid target and purposefully training another guild. At the very least if there is only a single raid force in the zone capable of engaging and taking down a mob then it should be against the rules to train them by accident or on purpose and blatant acts of intentional training should never be allowed.

[Thana8088]

Aye I was confusing you with Sentenza. I appologize for painting you with the same brush as your fellow guild mate.

Understandable! We are like the Asian equivalent to the P99 population; you can't tell us apart but get all mad 'cause we took your jobs. :D

[Nirgon]

Amelinda stepped in

Stopped reading right there. Not just saying that either.

I've made a point of teaching everyone in my guild how to run it though.

True EQ leadership here. Takes notes. A true sensei must train his students to be able to beat even him.

[SupaflyIRL]

true story, I was under talendor on moondogg timing my nuke with Qados' blur at 1%... the rest is history!

I just laughed when I read this because I'm assuming it went back to 100% and came straight after you with full HP. Nice surprise, hahahah.

[arsenalpow]

BDA found out about mem blur doing the same shit on spiroc lord, that was definitely a wipe...

[Ele]

I just laughed when I read this because I'm assuming it went back to 100% and came straight after you with full HP. Nice surprise, hahahah.

It's okay, Moondogg has tanked Innoruuk before.

[SupaflyIRL]

BDA found out about mem blur doing the same shit on spiroc lord, that was definitely a wipe...

I was there for that :)

[Fazlazen]

It's okay, Moondogg has tanked Innoruuk before.

without symbol, too =p

[Ravager]

Why do I have to admit anything? I think it's well documented, it's not a big secret that it took place or why it took place.

I mean, people were handed guises (other illusions) and pre-nerf staffs at some GM events. Should people expect that to happen all the time? Should people get pissed when they aren't given those as choices? Basically, you're upset at an event that was put in place by Nilbog and Rogean.

again, less conspiracy please.

I'm a little upset they took away my April Fool's guise.