Raiding scene changes proposal

[isoka]

Hello everyone, for those who don't know me, Yamakasi, one of Bregan D'Aerth raid leaders. I have been awarded by my leadership the rights to represent BDA in this post.

The following post is a proposal to p99 raiding guilds. Hence, it is open for discussion with a representative of each guild, but it is not open for everyone to post their opinion so that we can keep this topic as constructive as possible.

Therefore, I highly recommand any of you to discuss this within your own guilds and that you have a dedicated person to post in the name of your guild. Trolls, get out of my thread. Thanks.

Let's start by looking back. 2012 has been marked by poopsocking, FTE lottery, a lot of petitions. Is it what we really want for 2013 ? It is not what BDA wants.

Don't worry, I am not proposing a rotation on raid targets, because regardless of what I think of TMO, I tend to agree with Zeelot's following post :


'Competition' for me in EQ is when 2 or more guilds are racing to engage a target. The most enjoyment I get out of EQ is evaluating each guilds forces as they enter a zone and engaging as soon as possible. If a guild goes too early they chance wiping and too late they chance losing to the opposition. This sort of race is not always how it goes, but when it does happen this way EQ is the most fun for me. I see no reason to make a rotation and take away from the chance to get that kind of experience. I understand the negative aspects of 'competition' such as socking, sniping, training, etc, but it is not like I enjoy that part of it. However, the feeling of a good race every once in awhile outweighs all the grief.


Yes, competition is fun and can bring high thrills when it comes to mobilize and race for a target. But let's face it. Not so much when it is about parking a toon, waiting for a batphone, logging in, killing the target, and logging out. Noone enjoys having a character stuck in one place, not being able to play it. Been there, done that.
Yes, parking and poopsocking is the most efficient way to kill a target, but let's be honest, it's not fun. It also leads to a shitload of petitions to know who has FTE, shaddy trains etc which is, unfortunately for the server, time consuming for our GMs who could make better use of their time to help the community.

My proposal is, somehow, based on a common agreement that would step up racing for the following targets, but also on Ambrotos' rules regarding Inny and Draco because I quite liked his proposition.

Old world targets :

Naggy / Vox : No real change. Kill those ones in their lair. Mobilisation from anywhere. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.

Inny : Kill Inny in his lair, no more pull to ZI (to avoid un-necessary trains). If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.

Draco / CT : No pre-camp at fear portal even if low in window. WC hat caps / ports from KC / Innothule potions / CT gate potion only.
Draco : Kill Draco in the Graveyard. No zone kiting allowed. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.
CT : Zone kiting allowed. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.

PoS targets :

Noble/Dojo : Since they are on a fixed timer and that FTE lottery is dumb, if there is a guild already in sky clearing islands, or a group of 6 already there, don't be an ass, let them get first shot at Noble.

Kunark targets :

Gore/Talendor/Faydedar/Severillous : No change. Puller makes a zone shout stating that he pulled that target and brings it to raid. In case of unknown FTE (2 pullers close to Fay for example), I guess a petition will still solve that issue.

VS : No pre-camp in VS prep room. Mobilisation from ZI or KC groups only. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.

Trakanon : No pre-camp at poop mountain. Evacs from KC to EJ only for the most part. Those xping in sebilis or around sebilis can gather to poopmountain. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.

VP : No change.


Velious targets :

That would be the same.
For static targets, if two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.
For targets pulled to the raid, FTE and bring to the raid. Petition in case of FTE doubt.


Benefits of exposed moral code :
- No more fucking petitions to know who has rights on a mob, more time for GMs to spend on real server issues.
- Less shaddy trains on Inny/Draco kills.
- Now we are talking about competition and mobilisation. Not just logging in and killing. Still have to put hard work to get the loots.
- Guilds not willing to poopsock might give a shot at raid targets
- Gives more interests to wizards and druids in guilds/groups


Disadvantages of exposed moral code:
- Targets will take slightly more time to be killed.
- No real control on where a guild is camped previous to engage. It's based on trust and respect.

To be totally honest, with this proposition, I still see TMO winning most of the targets since they have a much more dedicated crew than other guilds and are quite organised mobilisation wise. But I also see more guilds not interested into poopsocking willing to take part in the raiding scene and willing to live or re-live the thrills of downing (or at least trying to down) a raid target.

Of course, this would only work if people play the game. If your raid leader calls engage, you engage. No shaddy call to grief other guilds. What about taking the high road for once ?

I invite any guild representative to speak in the name of his guild so that we can find an agreement on how to make p99 raiding scene a better place to be, and so that everyone can find what they are looking for.

Thanks for taking the time to read me, and please respect my wishes regarding how to post in this topic,

Yamakasi, raid leader of Bregan D'Aerth

[Itap]

First

[Autotune]

Questions.

How are guilds supposed to police their players and stop them from stashing any number of alts at raiding camps ahead of time?

How do you police another guild's players?

Punishment for violating this?

Think this is going to be hard to check, as the only people that would find out are other people that are stashing characters in places no one is supposed to be stashed... lol

[Autotune]

Holy Jesus Christ, does everyone on this server just have one shit idea after another or something?

How about, on every single fucking raid boss, whoever manages to do the most damage to the target before it dies, gets the fucking kill?

Why is the most obvious solution not obvious to anyone apparently? I mean just look at it. It's one sentence long and it solves every single problem. Not a single petition should ever be needed and there's virtually no way to exploit this rule.

i know how to exploit it lol

[Nordenwatch]

No one is going to "discuss amongst their guilds" about this because it'll just get ignored. Like stealin said there is no way to enforce this. " no pre-camping" and "only evac from KC to EJ"... what are you going to do, watch everyone who evacs into EJ and note their names down and if others are in seb killing trak they're in violation?

[melkezidek]

Holy Jesus Christ, does everyone on this server just have one shit idea after another or something?

How about, on every single fucking raid boss, whoever manages to do the most damage to the target before it dies, gets the fucking kill?

Why is the most obvious solution not obvious to anyone apparently? I mean just look at it. It's one sentence long and it solves every single problem. Not a single petition should ever be needed and there's virtually no way to exploit this rule.

Has its own down side though. The stacking of rogues and wizzies for kills in raids would go through the roof. The best geared would have major advantages. I liked the First in Force that we did on live but here we would have problems with poop socking and camped chars. I think the biggest help will be the FTE shout or what ever they are putting in.

[Nordenwatch]

And the trolls swarm in, Pretty sad that it looks like people cant act like adults.. even in a game.

there's a difference between acting immaturely and acting realistically, this would NEVER work unless every guild on the server was in on it. If 90% of the guilds weren't pre-camping but one decided to, the entire thing would go down the toilet.

[Vandy]

FTE shout will NEVER happen.
As the GMs stated with Inny it's different in every situation.
Where as Inny's FTE actually works differently according to Sirken you have to be the first person to damage the mob and not the first person to be on the aggro list like FTE has been enforced before. With that ruling I officially lost any hope of a FTE shout as was supposed to be "in the works"

[Itap]

And the trolls swarm in, Pretty sad that it looks like people cant act like adults.. even in a game.

If you think whats posted so far is trollin, you aint seen nothing yet

[Autotune]

Everyone should just post their own Raid Rules and then next week we can make a poll and see who gets the most votes and then everyone can follow those rules the following week.

[Vandy]

there's a difference between acting immaturely and acting realistically, this would NEVER work unless every guild on the server was in on it. If 90% of the guilds weren't pre-camping but one decided to, the entire thing would go down the toilet.

Well at least someone is throwing SOMETHING out there. The current system is high exploitable as well. Why not try out some different scenarios and see if anything changes. Use what works and discard what doesn't, experiment a little. I mean just about everything now is ridiculous so why keep the same system that doesn't work, let's just TRY something else out even if it's for a week... WHY NOT?

[Alarti0001]

I doubt it or you would have said how.



How is that a down side? Ok so you stack rogues and wizzies...big deal? If your guild manages to get more people on the target faster, it won't matter how many wizzies or rogues the other guild has if they are too late. Also, how would the best geared have major advantages? Anyone that's capable of taking down raid targets are all pretty damn well geared so I really doubt it's that much of an advantage.

Well timed memblurs. GG

I can confirm rogues with VP weapons would obliterate rogues without. The differences will further increase in velious.

[Autotune]

I doubt it or you would have said how.



How is that a down side? Ok so you stack rogues and wizzies...big deal? If your guild manages to get more people on the target faster, it won't matter how many wizzies or rogues the other guild has if they are too late. Also, how would the best geared have major advantages? Anyone that's capable of taking down raid targets are all pretty damn well geared so I really doubt it's that much of an advantage.

Memblur will exploit the "who does the most dmg".

Basically, a guild could do 95% of the damage, an enchanter from another guild can come up and memblur the target and his rag-tag band of rogues could manage to do the most on the last 5% and get xp/loot.

So even if they show up late, they can still win easily enough.

This is, if memblur isn't fully healing the raid target... dunno if they ever actually fixed that lol.

[Alarti0001]

Well at least someone is throwing SOMETHING out there. The current system is high exploitable as well. Why not try out some different scenarios and see if anything changes. Use what works and discard what doesn't, experiment a little. I mean just about everything now is ridiculous so why keep the same system that doesn't work, let's just TRY something else out even if it's for a week... WHY NOT?

We did try something recently. It didnt work. What will work is velious!
This wont work because it irrationally limits a player/guilds ability to play the game and to devise new ways to compete.

[Alarti0001]

Make it so memblurs don't work on raid targets, problem solved.

Also I really fucking doubt that a rogue with epic/nightwalker is going to get that heavily out dps'd by someone with a VP off hander. Sure it's better but obliterate? Ya no.

I guess its how you define obliterate personally. They will have greater DPS and greater survivability due to VP gear. Which will increase come velious.

[Lazortag]

What happened to the changes that were in the works a while ago about simultaneous repops, FTE shout, etc.?

[Vandy]

What happened to the changes that were in the works a while ago about simultaneous repops, FTE shout, etc.?

^^^^^

[TWDL_Prexus]

Delusions of grandeur. Either step up your game to compete with TMO, or consider a different game. As long as TMO is around there will be no easy raiding. This aspect of the server is probably one of the most classic things about this server.

[Autotune]

Make it so memblurs don't work on raid targets, problem solved.

Also I really fucking doubt that a rogue with epic/nightwalker is going to get that heavily out dps'd by someone with a VP off hander. Sure it's better but obliterate? Ya no.

No, you just created an entire new set of problems.

[tekniq]

to OP, your argument would only be valid if everything was in good faith. you can't police people from not parking fully buffed toons, then you're going to petition that guild X parked 10 forces, GMs don't want to hear that shit either.

TBH, i think the coolest way that might take a bit of work is if there is a 7 day window when all mobs will spawn sometime within the 7 days and there is just a server wide message that mob x popped at time y (like a server shutdown message), then you can send out your batphones. Think it would also be cool if there was like a 20% chance that two mobs spawn at the same time, 10% chance 3 mobs spawn and a 5% chance that all mobs spawn at once, Socks would be clean, and no one would have to sit there like an idiot tracking for hours.

i.e, week of 1/13

Sunday - 10am: oh shit, gore pops
Sunday - 7pm: wtf, inny pops
Tuesday - 5am: dafuq? trakanon
Wednesday - ....
Thursday - 1pm: HOLY HELL!! VS & CT
Friday - 8pm: OMG WTF BBQ! sev, talendor AND fay?!?!?!
you get the picture...






and I represent the ghost of VD.

[Autotune]

should just make it so raid mobs can spawn randomly in any zone at any time.

and people can't level past 44

and you can only wear 7 pieces of gear

and you can only have 10 items in your inventory

you can't carry more than 100 platinum on you and 200 platinum in your bank

items can't stack past 5

[Autotune]

Here is an overhaul I wrote up a few weeks ago that I sent to Sirken (he never replied). I later (a week or two after sending it to Sirken) sent it to Tarathiel of BDA (who seemed to like some/most of it) and to Zagum of TMO (idk if he ever looked at it tho).

INNY
- Pullable (requires the pull to reach destination)
Must state pulling - in shout

Maestro
- Pullable (requires the pull to reach destination)
Must state pulling - in shout

CT
- Pullable (requires the pull to reach destination)
Must state pulling - in shout
- Kiting for pre-engages is fine
- DT griefing is NOT fine
- A guild accepts all mobs that come with the CT engage

Draco
- Pullable (requires the pull to reach destination)
Must state pulling - in shout

[Kunark World Dragons: Sev, Fay, Tal, Gore]
- Pullable (requires the pull to reach destination)
Must state pulling - in shout

Trak
- Must be killed in Lair
- Jugg camping must be done outside locked door if a guild also wants to attempt trakanon during his window

VS
- Must be killed in his room or pit

Vox
- Must be killed in Lair

Naggy
- Must be killed in Lair

[Sky Raid targets]
- Pullable (requires the pull to reach destination)
Must state pulling - in shout
- All other sky raid rules still apply

No pull juggling - you get 1 pull shout, if you lose aggro, you (the pullers) must wait for the raid target to reset to it's natural path/spawn point before you can pull/shout again.
- A guild, who hasn't used a pull shout, can aggro and pull at any period that a raid target is unengaged.

No socking raid forces within aggro range
No socking raid forces in zones
No sitting on spawn points for FTE

Guilds allowed 1 Tracker in the zone
Guilds allowed to bring in players to buff and camp out
Guilds not allowed to sit players in a zone for more than 10 minutes. Get your buffs and log out or log out and wait for your buffer to come available for buffs.


VP (stays the same)

If You want to petition a guild, you must have fraps of the violation with Screenshots and logs being preferred alongside the video evidence. All pullers should run fraps ideally.

Figured I'd add something non-silly-ish.

[Vexenu]

My suggestion: one hour prior to every major raid mob spawning, a serverwide announcement goes out notifying everyone of the impending spawn, along with an announcement that the zone the raid mob resides in will become FFA PvP enabled beginning half an hour following the announcement and lasting until the raid mob is killed.

Any guild that wants a shot can show up and fight for it. The purpose would obviously be for guilds to battle it out for rights to the mob, but you'd need to have full level range FFA PvP to prevent lame shit like unguilded level 39 cleric bots CHing people or Fansy-wannabe bards running in with trains. FFA would also allow guilds to form (and break) alliances with each other against other guilds, adding a layer of diplomatic complexity and intrigue to inter-guild relationships.

Basically, you take the best part of EQ PvP (pitched battles between relatively equal groups of experienced players) and eliminate the worst (random ganking/griefing of lowbies/undergeared players while xping). And you use this to solve the problem of determining which guild should get rights to a mob.

Probably no chance of being implemented but would make things a helluva lot more interesting at the high end and introduce a much more dynamic server environment. If the appeal of the high-end raid game is really competition between guilds, then something like this would be much more appropriate than poopsocking or a rotation.

Most of all, though, it would be fun as hell.

[TWDL_Prexus]

My suggestion: one hour prior to every major raid mob spawning, a serverwide announcement goes out notifying everyone of the impending spawn, along with an announcement that the zone the raid mob resides in will become FFA PvP enabled beginning half an hour following the announcement and lasting until the raid mob is killed.

Any guild that wants a shot can show up and fight for it. The purpose would obviously be for guilds to battle it out for rights to the mob, but you'd need to have full level range FFA PvP to prevent lame shit like unguilded level 39 cleric bots CHing people or Fansy-wannabe bards running in with trains. FFA would also allow guilds to form (and break) alliances with each other against other guilds, adding a layer of diplomatic complexity and intrigue to inter-guild relationships.

Basically, you take the best part of EQ PvP (pitched battles between relatively equal groups of experienced players) and eliminate the worst (random ganking/griefing of lowbies/undergeared players while xping). And you use this to solve the problem of determining which guild should get rights to a mob.

Probably no chance of being implemented but would make things a helluva lot more interesting at the high end and introduce a much more dynamic server environment. If the appeal of the high-end raid game is really competition between guilds, then something like this would be much more appropriate than poopsocking or a rotation.

Most of all, though, it would be fun as hell.


Mr. Vexenu, what you've just said ... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

But seriously.. I doubt many people will read that after the first run-on sentence.

[Alarti0001]

Here is an overhaul I wrote up a few weeks ago that I sent to Sirken (he never replied). I later (a week or two after sending it to Sirken) sent it to Tarathiel of BDA (who seemed to like some/most of it) and to Zagum of TMO (idk if he ever looked at it tho).



Figured I'd add something non-silly-ish.

Not too bad

[Vexenu]

Mr. Vexenu, what you've just said ... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

But seriously.. I doubt many people will read that after the first run-on sentence.

I'm sorry. I will use shorter sentences for the English-impaired.

Suggestion: One-hour advance serverwide announcements of raid mob spawns. FFA PvP in the relevant zone until the raid mob is killed. Guilds can fight each other for rights to the mob. Guilds can form and break alliances. Server politics and inter-guild relations become extremely important. Competition between guilds becomes real and immediate and not just a buzzword that basement dwellers use to justify poopsocking and accumulating characters to park all over the world.

Last sentence was kinda long. Hope you got it.

[TWDL_Prexus]

I'm sorry. I will use shorter sentences for the English-impaired.

Suggestion: One-hour advance serverwide announcements of raid mob spawns. FFA PvP in the relevant zone until the raid mob is killed. Guilds can fight each other for rights to the mob. Guilds can form and break alliances. Server politics and inter-guild relations become extremely important. Competition between guilds becomes real and immediate and not just a buzzword that basement dwellers use to justify poopsocking and accumulating characters to park all over the world.

Last sentence was kinda long. Hope you got it.

Yeah.. you can sum it up in 1 setence or write a paper on it. Doesn't change the fact that it is a horrible idea.

[Handull]

- Gives more interests to wizards and druids in guilds/groups


100% dead wrong. You will want your wizards porting to the mob and getting full mana again so they can burn with all their heart, you don't want them spending all their mana pre-engage to port people if you can help it. Druids will never, ever see an engage this way. Every time they start running from EJ to Seb another tell will come in for a last minute port, and they will be the one going back to get the guy who was slow to log in. Any druids who have been in guilds that primarily does hate/fear clears knows that for a fear raid you are often the last person there, as you spend most of your time porting people over. I've also seen this same thing first hand doing a jugg raid for spells back in Poison/Acyrid.

For Trakanon this would result in people camping out at the zone in or NG or king-prep. Running down to Trak would result in terrible trains and could result in exp groups and solo'ers getting trained. Trak is actually a really fair encounter right now. Rarely does another guild get trained during a Trak kill, non-guild players virtually never get trained, and it is only a headache for the GMs when he goes into the last few hours of his window and becomes a giant poop fest. A better solution for Trak is for all guilds to just agree that for the last few hours of Trak, no one leaves the ledge. If everyone stays on the ledge then you have to rely on teamwork to know Trak is up and be the first to win the short race for FTE, rather than letting Trak pick a random target. Agreeing to leave juggs up unless they can be tagged from the ledge with spells/throwing would help get rid of the issue with people pretending to go pull juggs while just trying to get the extra little edge.

Sev/Tal are pretty much fine right now, since they are so easy to port to, not many people camp out at them. Gore is often left alone for hours, so he is clearly not a problem.

One big issue that you failed to address is what happens when a guild wipes. If Guild A wipes on a mob and Guild B is the only other guild in zone, then grats Guild B, you get to take your time and win. But if Guilds B, C, and D are all in zone as well, all watching Guild A wipe, standing on top of them, now you have another random FTE check after all of Guild A goes down. That is assuming someone else isn't already on the agro list and the mob formally resets.

[fishingme]

Mr. Vexenu, what you've just said ... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

But seriously.. I doubt many people will read that after the first run-on sentence.

you must still live with your mom, I hate people calling others "bluebes" but holy shit you're a bluebe.

[SupaflyIRL]

just put every goddamn raid mob on the same static timer so guilds have to prioritize which mob they want most

[TWDL_Prexus]

you must still live with your mom, I hate people calling others "bluebes" but holy shit you're a bluebe.

Sorry that the fact that EQ PVP sucks offends you. You should probably stick to your slightly lesser blue neckbeard server.

[fishingme]

Sorry that the fact that EQ PVP sucks offends you. You should probably stick to your slightly lesser blue neckbeard server.

Rofl, I don't even play red. I dislike pvp, but in this case of "guilds wanting competition on raid mobs" why not enable pvp.

[quido]

Never would have guessed that one thread could have so many bad ideas. Oh wait, yes I would have!

[gloine36]

Now you know why instancing is used.

[Crazyeye]

Guild with the XP = Kill,
Instances, or
Velious

^^^ The only cure to fix the shitfes that comes with the vastly over populated raid scene. Inb4 "not classic".. but neither is your suggestions.

[Vandy]

Never would have guessed that one thread could have so many bad ideas. Oh wait, yes I would have!

Throw out some good ones then?

[fishingme]

Throw out some good ones then?

He can't. His existence was a bad idea.

[quido]

Throw out some good ones then?

I'm not the one begging for change out of self-interest.

[Autotune]

I'm not the one begging for change out of self-interest.

I threw mine out for self interest!

[quido]

Self-aggrandizement!

[Alarti0001]

Throw out some good ones then?

Velious

[quido]

Anything involving "call it before you go in" is stupid. If you can't see the problems that are going to come out of this, you're stupid. They've already been discussed in another thread.

Anything that prohibits camping out for targets to some degree is stupid. If you can't see the problems that are going to come out of this, you're stupid. Furthermore it would be a Harrison Bergeron-esque handicapping to people like me with three+ 60s who use said characters to maximize enjoyment of the game. Having my Monk at Trak ledge, my Bard at Fear portal, and my Shaman on the loose is how I like to play the game! Don't punish me and my guild because your alt force can't do what ours can.

[SupaflyIRL]

I'm not the one begging for change out of self-interest.

because opposing change in self interest is so much different

[quido]

I also oppose change because the changes suggested are poorly thought through ideas that will realistically compound the problems they are supposedly trying to solve.

[SupaflyIRL]

I also oppose change because the changes suggested are poorly thought through ideas that will realistically compound the problems they are supposedly trying to solve.

the two are not mutually exclusive

[quido]

Yeah.

[TWDL_Prexus]

Anything involving "call it before you go in" is stupid. If you can't see the problems that are going to come out of this, you're stupid. They've already been discussed in another thread.

Anything that prohibits camping out for targets to some degree is stupid. If you can't see the problems that are going to come out of this, you're stupid. Furthermore it would be a Harrison Bergeron-esque handicapping to people like me with three+ 60s who use said characters to maximize enjoyment of the game. Having my Monk at Trak ledge, my Bard at Fear portal, and my Shaman on the loose is how I like to play the game! Don't punish me and my guild because your alt force can't do what ours can.


This is pretty much what it boils down to. You can't tell a person how they should play a game, especially when they are playing within the rules. Nothing will change unless Rogean wants it to, so you all are pretty much beating a dead horse.

[SupaflyIRL]

Yeah.

I'm not trying to be a dick, just saying that any rational self-interested actor in the #1 guild would oppose any changes, good or bad.

[Nips]

Naggy / Vox : No real change. Kill those ones in their lair. Mobilisation from anywhere. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.
Whats the different between this and FTE? I guess you could rename it First to shout

Inny : Kill Inny in his lair, no more pull to ZI (to avoid un-necessary trains). If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.
Same as above

Draco / CT : No pre-camp at fear portal even if low in window. WC hat caps / ports from KC / Innothule potions / CT gate potion only.
Draco : Kill Draco in the Graveyard. No zone kiting allowed. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.
So precamp in inno swamp instead?

CT : Zone kiting allowed. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.
Same as #1 and #2

PoS targets :

Noble/Dojo : Since they are on a fixed timer and that FTE lottery is dumb, if there is a guild already in sky clearing islands, or a group of 6 already there, don't be an ass, let them get first shot at Noble.
Goto plane of sky super early and pretend to kill stuff for free uncontested noble kill. Lets see who wants to waste the most time in sky!

Kunark targets :

Gore/Talendor/Faydedar/Severillous : No change. Puller makes a zone shout stating that he pulled that target and brings it to raid. In case of unknown FTE (2 pullers close to Fay for example), I guess a petition will still solve that issue.
I guess this is ok

VS : No pre-camp in VS prep room. Mobilisation from ZI or KC groups only. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.
Camp in room just outside of prep room, theres even a safe spot there! To second part see #1,2 and the other one.


Trakanon : No pre-camp at poop mountain. Evacs from KC to EJ only for the most part. Those xping in sebilis or around sebilis can gather to poopmountain. If two or more guilds are competing, the first raid leader to make a shout/ooc stating that their guild is engaging the target gets the first shot. However, when a raid leader makes such a call, the whole guild has to engage the target like they would do without any competition.
Camp in tube room?

[fishingme]

I'm not trying to be a dick, just saying that any rational self-interested actor in the #1 guild would oppose any changes, good or bad.

+1, sounds to me like they're scared. But hey, change is scary.

[quido]

I thought getting people off of spawn points was a good change, but BDA and FE were opposed to it.

Despite not thinking the raid scene is as disastrous as some of you drama queens do, I'm all for realistic suggestions. Nobody seems to have the capacity to offer any, though. It's all imbalanced problematic self-serving tripe that's being suggested.

[Autotune]

Anything involving "call it before you go in" is stupid. If you can't see the problems that are going to come out of this, you're stupid. They've already been discussed in another thread.

Anything that prohibits camping out for targets to some degree is stupid. If you can't see the problems that are going to come out of this, you're stupid. Furthermore it would be a Harrison Bergeron-esque handicapping to people like me with three+ 60s who use said characters to maximize enjoyment of the game. Having my Monk at Trak ledge, my Bard at Fear portal, and my Shaman on the loose is how I like to play the game! Don't punish me and my guild because your alt force can't do what ours can.

tech with mine, you don't have to call before, you call as/right after.

and you can still camp out for targets with mine as well.

Basically nothing has changed other than you make it aware that you have the pull, so if the target isn't engaged, another guild can pull.

[SupaflyIRL]

Anything I can think of requires a referee, which isn't going to happen on a free emulated server. Which is why I suggested linking all the spawn timers for certain mobs (VS, Trak, Naggy/Vox, etc) because it completely ignores any rule/referee based modification of player behavior and instead does it within the confines of the game itself.

e: for example, prohibiting camping within aggro range of the spawn point and having a certain line, which when crossed by a player designates that players guild as ready for the attempt giving them one minute or less to engage or they forfeit their attempt to the next force ready to engage. the problem is how do you enforce this, after the fact with fraps recordings?

[Alarti0001]

I'm not trying to be a dick, just saying that any rational self-interested actor in the #1 guild would oppose any changes, good or bad.

Untrue. I support server repops and velious development!

[SupaflyIRL]

Untrue. I support server repops and velious development!

yeah that was the only thing I could think of, simulating server repops by linking the spawns

[Vexenu]

The idea that leveling up/buying multiple characters and parking them at targets all across the game world is a legitimate and/or desirable form of competition is asinine. The fact that you can buy and sell accounts openly on the server, coupled with the existence of the RMT market makes such claims absurd on their face.

Pre-announced raid mobs spawns and PvP enabled raid zones = true guild competition.

Calling anything less than that true competition between guilds is a complete joke.

If TMO actually desired competition between guilds (as they claim), then that's what they'd want. But TMO desires winning above everything else, so they don't.

And really, I don't fault them for defending their current advantageous position. That's just human nature. But their claim that they do so because they prefer "competition" is transparently disingenuous to anyone paying attention.

[Alarti0001]

The idea that leveling up/buying multiple characters and parking them at targets all across the game world is a legitimate and/or desirable form of competition is asinine. The fact that you can buy and sell accounts openly on the server, coupled with the existence of the RMT market makes such claims absurd on their face.

Pre-announced raid mobs spawns and PvP enabled raid zones = true guild competition.

Calling anything less than that true competition between guilds is a complete joke.

If TMO actually desired competition between guilds (as they claim), then that's what they'd want. But TMO desires winning above everything else, so they don't.

And really, I don't fault them for defending their current advantageous position. That's just human nature. But their claim that they do so because they prefer "competition" is transparently disingenuous to anyone paying attention.

All of your claims are wrong and a complete joke. Considering everything that humans do is "human nature", pretty much everything you said is moot.

[quido]

I want competition that isn't a result of our relative advantage being diminished by stupid changes. Want to gain an edge? Earn it.

[Vexenu]

All of your claims are wrong and a complete joke. Considering everything that humans do is "human nature", pretty much everything you said is moot.
...

This is literally the worst attempt at refutation I've seen on the internet, ever.

'All your claims are wrong, a joke, and everything you said is moot because human nature encompasses all human activity'

Is it even possible to be more intentionally obtuse and pedantic, while totally ignoring the main thrust of what I said?


I want competition that isn't a result of our relative advantage being diminished by stupid changes. Want to gain an edge? Earn it.
I can see your point if you honestly view the current status of raiding (with camping out multiple characters and such) as 'competition', and a desirable form of competition at that.

I just don't think most people on the server would agree with your opinion on that.

[quido]

Tell me how I should want my competition to be.

[Autotune]

I want competition that isn't a result of our relative advantage being diminished by stupid changes. Want to gain an edge? Earn it.

Ah, like they earn it when socking targets?

The only advantage given from my suggestion is if TMO botches a pull (which shouldn't happen).

The rest puts everyone on level ground and keeps people from socking targets (which no one likes to do)

[quido]

Stealin you're being as dense as everyone else here. Do you really need your system to come to fruition to see that it is a flop?

[Vexenu]

Tell me how I should want my competition to be.

Pre-announced raid mobs spawns and PvP enabled raid zones = true guild competition.

That is true guild vs. guild competition. I'm not saying you should want it (or expecting you to), I'm saying that calling the status quo 'competition' is like calling a pie eating contest the sporting event of the century.

A bit of a misnomer, yeah?

I'm also saying that if you actually enjoy the status quo of poopsocking/toon parking/etc... that you are unquestionably in the minority here and off the charts masochistic even by classic EQ player standards.

[Alarti0001]

...

This is literally the worst attempt at refutation I've seen on the internet, ever.

'All your claims are wrong, a joke, and everything you said is moot because human nature encompasses all human activity'

Is it even possible to be more intentionally obtuse and pedantic, while totally ignoring the main thrust of what I said?



No and that was the point. You made claims based on your opinion and called them fact. They aren't there really wasn't much to refute.


Your post boils down to "I have this opinion on how you should raid, and I am right".


So I responded to a pointless post with one of my own to make it readily apparent how ridiculous your post was.

[radditsu]

Anything I can think of requires a referee, which isn't going to happen on a free emulated server. Which is why I suggested linking all the spawn timers for certain mobs (VS, Trak, Naggy/Vox, etc) because it completely ignores any rule/referee based modification of player behavior and instead does it within the confines of the game itself.




Bi Weekly to Weekly repops and timers more in tune with classic eq aka slight variance but not "end my life with a rusty fork" variance. Sounds great. Would love to see that server. Would solve alot of issues when, at least once a week, or every few weeks, you can out run the zerg farm. There are enough VP keyed people on this server to force TMO to hold the zone, or at least get a few dragon pulls to keep them honest.

IF you played it right you would get more " competition", more "fun". But that takes an edit to the code. So not likely any time soon.

[Vexenu]

No and that was the point. You made claims based on your opinion and called them fact. They aren't there really wasn't much to refute.


Your post boils down to "I have this opinion on how you should raid, and I am right".


So I responded to a pointless post with one of my own to make it readily apparent how ridiculous your post was.
Nothing in this post is valid.

Refuted.

/victory

[Faywind]

How about, on every single raid boss, whoever manages to do the most damage to the target before it dies, gets the fucking kill?

Why is the most obvious solution not obvious to anyone apparently? I mean just look at it. It's one sentence long and it solves every single problem. Not a single petition should ever be needed and there's virtually no way to exploit this rule.

Worst...idea...ever.

Someone doesn't understand memblur.

[Autotune]

Stealin you're being as dense as everyone else here. Do you really need your system to come to fruition to see that it is a flop?

No, I really don't care either way tbh. I don't see it as bad as you seem to think it will be tho.

If I were raiding, I'd trade the bad that would come with that for no sockfests tho.

[Alarti0001]

Nothing in this post is valid.

Refuted.

/victory

I could have refuted your entire post with one word, why?

[quido]

With the exception of Trakanon, I park toons to make my life easier and not have to run around and get ports and OT hammer as much. I enjoy the flexibility and options. It's less of a task than raiding as much as I would like to and trying to make the same raids without any preparation. I don't give a fuck about losing some mobs here and there to folks that are willing to go get them. Most of my "parks" aren't to try to avert this - they're to save me some time so I can get back to doing what I was doing.

[Autotune]

With the exception of Trakanon, I park toons to make my life easier and not have to run around and get ports and OT hammer as much. I enjoy the flexibility and options. It's less of a task than raiding as much as I would like to and trying to make the same raids without any preparation. I don't give a fuck about losing some mobs here and there to folks that are willing to go get them. Most of my "parks" aren't to try to avert this - they're to save me some time so I can get back to doing what I was doing.

This has nothing to do with anything I've said.

[radditsu]

This has nothing to do with anything I've said.

Psst I think it means you are not part of the discussion and they are talking around you.

[Autotune]

Psst I think it means you are not part of the discussion and they are talking around you.

I thought that at first, but then he did respond to me earlier and his response doesn't really fit anything that has been said since then.

so.

nevermind lol, i read over vexenu's post automatically because of his earlier posts. Lawl, bad habit is bad.

[radditsu]

I thought that at first, but then he did respond to me earlier and his response doesn't really fit anything that has been said since then.

so.

Oh well at least you are aware then. Carry on.

[Autotune]

Oh well at least you are aware then. Carry on.

guess you missed it to or you'd have called me out on it, now I don't feel so bad.

[quido]

This has nothing to do with anything I've said.

That post was in response to the fella that said something about my play style being in the minority or whatever.

[gotrocks]

rotations

velious

or

keep it the way it is.

those are really the only three options, and seeing as too many people disagree with rotations, and no one can agree on a better system than whats already in place, looks like velious.

[Autotune]

That post was in response to the fella that said something about my play style being in the minority or whatever.

Yeah that was my bad, I started skipping his posts without noticing it

[Tarathiel]

until rogean/nilbogs changes happen, nothing will happen, its already pretty apparent by the general direction of this thread that tmo has no intention of ever working with any guild for anything ever. they simply cannot be asked to abide by anything short of a gm ruling(and even then they will use every loop hole to their advantage) the only way things would change on p99 otherwise would be if multiple guilds formed up to create an even bigger zerg than tmo, and at that point people would just start making threads about that guild and the cycle would continue. its just the way of things around here

[Alarti0001]

until rogean/nilbogs changes happen, nothing will happen, its already pretty apparent by the general direction of this thread that tmo has no intention of ever working with any guild for anything ever. they simply cannot be asked to abide by anything short of a gm ruling(and even then they will use every loop hole to their advantage) the only way things would change on p99 otherwise would be if multiple guilds formed up to create an even bigger zerg than tmo, and at that point people would just start making threads about that guild and the cycle would continue. its just the way of things around here

If you were capable of being objective you would notice that TMO has worked with many guilds in the past.

[Splorf22]

I'm not the one begging for change out of self-interest.

That's because the current system plays to your strengths.

[Nordenwatch]

That's because the current system plays to your strengths.

To be fair, their strengths were developed around the current system. Its not like the system was designed for TMO in mind.

If people want to beat TMO that badly they should just freaking merge with each other, its just numbers at the end of the day.

[isoka]

86 posts to my thread, and not a single answer speaking in the name of a guild. Am quite disappointed guys.

My thread is an invitation for an open talk between guilds (and not between all players, which looks like none of you understood) to discuss things that would, in my opinion, grant more respect between guilds and involve much more less GMs into the /petition fest to know who got FTE, or who got a shady train.

The advantage of a first to shout is that everyone is aware of it, which is not the case with FTE.

Most answers I got to read are : if a single guild decides to break the agreement, it's over. Yes, that's true. But so what ? VP/Trak rotations between TMO and IB worked till IB broke the agreement. My proposal can work till someone breaks the agreement and then we will just be in the exact same situation than now, but at least we would have tried to make it work.

The only here who proposed some material is Autotune, who, unfortunately, doesn't play the game anymore.

Regarding TMO, most answers I see in this thread is : we don't want to change anything, we are fine with the way it is. I proposed something that would fit Zeelot's definition of competition, but I can understand that you guys care more for loot and pixels than actual competition. It's completly fine with me, just have someone speak in the name of TMO to actually state that here saying : We have no interest in trying to change the current raid scene since we are perfectly fine with the way it is.

My thread would then be void since it requires a global agreement that would never be reached.

That being said, I would also love to get GMs thoughts on the current raiding scene. Are they spending too much time resolving raid petitions or is it fine with them the way it is ?

[Alarti0001]

86 posts to my thread, and not a single answer speaking in the name of a guild. Am quite disappointed guys.

My thread is an invitation for an open talk between guilds (and not between all players, which looks like none of you understood) to discuss things that would, in my opinion, grant more respect between guilds and involve much more less GMs into the /petition fest to know who got FTE, or who got a shady train.

The advantage of a first to shout is that everyone is aware of it, which is not the case with FTE.

Most answers I got to read are : if a single guild decides to break the agreement, it's over. Yes, that's true. But so what ? VP/Trak rotations between TMO and IB worked till IB broke the agreement. My proposal can work till someone breaks the agreement and then we will just be in the exact same situation than now, but at least we would have tried to make it work.

The only here who proposed some material is Autotune, who, unfortunately, doesn't play the game anymore.

Regarding TMO, most answers I see in this thread is : we don't want to change anything, we are fine with the way it is. I proposed something that would fit Zeelot's definition of competition, but I can understand that you guys care more for loot and pixels than actual competition. It's completly fine with me, just have someone speak in the name of TMO to actually state that here saying : We have no interest in trying to change the current raid scene since we are perfectly fine with the way it is.

My thread would then be void since it requires a global agreement that would never be reached.

That being said, I would also love to get GMs thoughts on the current raiding scene. Are they spending too much time resolving raid petitions or is it fine with them the way it is ?


Your post didn't warrant a guild response.

You obviously don't understand competition. What you wanted to do was remove TMO advantages and call it competition.
It would be like telling google and apple they have to make the same size tablet with the same software the same apps and the same colors running on the same hardware.

Its not competition its restriction.

[Camulet]

From reading countless posts on this matter, it seems an alliance is the only way TMO can be knocked off the top spot. Once they are, im sure their numbers will reduce as their members move to join one of the allied guilds. Once the mission is accomplished the alliance disolves and what should be left is 4-5 guilds all of relatively the same numbers/strengh/experience.

Then let the competition begin!

[SkippyTime]

haha GL capulet

[Camulet]

I said it was the only way, never said FE, BDA and other smaller guilds had the capacity to work together!

With regards to all other suggestions I hate to say this but I agree with TMO's view point. They are not doing anything that other guilds cant do if they really wanted to, and infact it could be done by numbers not necessarily by a smaller group devoting their whole life.

There is a decent euro contingent on this server that can easily track a spawn during the hours that the US people are either asleep or at work.

There are ways to get a further share without artificially creating competition.

[falkun]

Alarti, how does "Velious" change the raid scene any more than offering a new location for old problems? Sadly, I don't have any suggestions to offer myself, but "Velious" doesn't fix the problem. "Kunark" was supposed to fix the "Classic" problem, but it didn't.

[isoka]

You might disagree with my vision of competition Alarti, but I feel like I'm in line with Zeelot's one. You would have noticed it if you took the time to read the introduction of my thread instead of jumping straight to a proposal open for modification and improvement (as long as I can have guild feedback rather than individual ones).

[SupaflyIRL]

Isoka your suggestion was patently ridiculous, not very well thought out, and requires an immense amount of player cooperation to fix a problem of a lack of player cooperation. It was ridiculous and if you wanted a closed forum discussion you should have invited other guild leaders into an IRC channel or something to discuss it, NOT POST IT ON AN OPEN FORUM. If you can't even organize THAT how in the HELL do you propose your plan is functional?

[Fountree]

bump for Spaceman's post.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, how does "Velious" change the raid scene any more than offering a new location for old problems? Sadly, I don't have any suggestions to offer myself, but "Velious" doesn't fix the problem. "Kunark" was supposed to fix the "Classic" problem, but it didn't.

More targets. Velious has 3x as many raid "bosses" as kunark and classic combined. It also has gearing raids which aren't "bosses". Arena, HoT, WToV, PoG, Manor. Maybe of the mobs also spawn more frequently than 1 week. This will allow people who havent' seen much of Kunark raids to experience them as well as allowing raids in Velious.

Kunark was never meant to fix the "classic" problem. There simply isnt enough raid real estate. This is part of the reason why Velious came out so close to Kunark's release on live. Kunark was designed as a leveling expansion with more raids and Epix. Velious was designed much more in a raid fashion. The only "raid zone" in Kunark is VP. I define a "raid zone" as a zone where you progress through raid content, that was designed for raiding specifically.

Velious has 4 or 5. Most of these raid zones will take significantly longer times to clear than VP.

[Alarti0001]

You might disagree with my vision of competition Alarti, but I feel like I'm in line with Zeelot's one. You would have noticed it if you took the time to read the introduction of my thread instead of jumping straight to a proposal open for modification and improvement (as long as I can have guild feedback rather than individual ones).

I read your entire post.
A guild is a collection of individuals. TMO is a democratic guild zeelot and other leaders constantly poll members opinions on what direction to take the guild. Sorry we aren't an autocratic automaton.

[Alarti0001]

Like i said, the trolls keep flooding in LOL. Sorry these kids cant come together to many anything happen here.

There actually hasn't been much trolling going on. A troll is not someone who has a differing opinion. Trolling is an approach to a topic. You know like....calling people kids, or trolls hoping to achieve some reaction.

[falkun]

More targets. Velious has 3x as many raid "bosses" as kunark and classic combined. It also has gearing raids which aren't "bosses". Arena, HoT, WToV, PoG, Manor. Maybe of the mobs also spawn more frequently than 1 week. This will allow people who havent' seen much of Kunark raids to experience them as well as allowing raids in Velious.

But these gearing raids still have tiers and "eventually" (if not immediately) you will have the same issues you have in Kunark/Classic (which by your definition are "single tier" gearing, which I agree with). I personally feel its best for the Server to define these tiers, define the method of entry and inclusion into these tiers, and then let everyone have a piece of the pie. TMO's rank and file seems to feel that you fight for every piece of ground you wish to have. I don't think a consensus will be made between these two philosophies, and the "competition" philosophy is the lowest common denominator within the current raid rules.

My system doesn't work for everyone. Those that enjoy the PVP aspect of a PVE server (if you don't understand that, please feel free to excuse yourself from the conversation) will not enjoy it. But those who play on a PVE server for PVE challenges (albeit "easy", 13 year old ones) will have a fair playground to see the world they missed or remember from 13 years ago, free of drama. Both systems are expandable to accommodate additional content, but the "competition" philosophy creates a "trickle-down" effect while the "socialistic" philosophy allows persons and guilds to progress at their own pace.

People like Fountree (reference a different thread) would still have things to do in Kunark were this server to use the "socialistic" philosophy.

[Alarti0001]

But these gearing raids still have tiers and "eventually" (if not immediately) you will have the same issues you have in Kunark/Classic (which by your definition are "single tier" gearing, which I agree with). I personally feel its best for the Server to define these tiers, define the method of entry and inclusion into these tiers, and then let everyone have a piece of the pie. TMO's rank and file seems to feel that you fight for every piece of ground you wish to have. I don't think a consensus will be made between these two philosophies, and the "competition" philosophy is the lowest common denominator within the current raid rules.

My system doesn't work for everyone. Those that enjoy the PVP aspect of a PVE server (if you don't understand that, please feel free to excuse yourself from the conversation) will not enjoy it. But those who play on a PVE server for PVE challenges (albeit "easy", 13 year old ones) will have a fair playground to see the world they missed or remember from 13 years ago, free of drama. Both systems are expandable to accommodate additional content, but the "competition" philosophy creates a "trickle-down" effect while the "socialistic" philosophy allows persons and guilds to progress at their own pace.

People like Fountree (reference a different thread) would still have things to do in Kunark were this server to use the "socialistic" philosophy.

Its not even about tiers its about the availibility of targets. The hardcore competition would exist on the harderst mobs that provide the best loot. But, honestly there isn't a guild out there who could compete with TMO on these targets, so the point is largely moot. The good stuff comes in with the length of times these raids can take. PoG gear may not be a TMO target but other guilds like BDA, FE, Full Circle, Asgard etc will benefit from trash and mini-boss kills there. Same goes for a large portion of kael armor drops(Thurg Armor). Once TMO is running through NToV(which wont take long) Vindi drops will lose most of the appeal. Also, he is what an 8 hr spawn?

Do you really think a TMO occupied in NToV is going to be able to make it quickly to a Dain, Vindi Velk, or Tormie pop?(provided variance is still in effect).

Velious will allow more casual raid teams to get a much larger "piece of the pie".

[Fael]

the game isn't perfect. Except it for what it is. 99.9% of these "fixes" are stupid. When velious comes out, things will be much much better. Perfect? No, but better. As good as this game will get.

Will velious content satisfy things years or two later, where three or four guilds on the server have geared up sufficiently to take down AoW? Probably not.

A few small minor changes to improve life is always appreciated. But all these crazy ass off-the-wall suggestions aren't helping anything.

I personally would like to play on a 1,000 person sullon zek style pvp server. But i accept that not everybody likes that version of eq. Other people should accept it when not everyone is keen on their off-the-wall vision of what would make p1999 better.

Dolic

[Kraftwerk]

I've read posts from TMO members stating they will carry around the turn in lute for Undead Bard just to get more Trak BPs, effectively continuing the Bard epic clock block. Velious sure to fix all problems though.

[falkun]

Alarti, TMO are the only people who BOTHER to compete on that level, not the only people who CAN compete on that level. Also, do you honestly think TMO are the only people who will be prepared for raids come Velious? There are at least two other guilds on the heels of TMO for Kunark content, why would we not be ready for Velious content?

What you are describing is the "trickle down" effect I mentioned in the post you quoted. What happens when no more trickling is required? All the guilds hit their proverbial "glass ceilings" and stagnate until the top leaves? That doesn't sound much different than the IB/TMO "transition".

A tiered socialistic system will allow for peaceful transitions of power, the #1 guild simply stops occupying its slot in the rotation and the rotations adjust dynamically based on member guilds while the PVE server remains about PVE challenges. But "peaceful" and "competition are in direct conflict with each other, I know. And so the lowest common denominator reigns.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, TMO are the only people who BOTHER to compete on that level, not the only people who CAN compete on that level. Also, do you honestly think TMO are the only people who will be prepared for raids come Velious? There are at least two other guilds on the heels of TMO for Kunark content, why would we not be ready for Velious content?

What you are describing is the "trickle down" effect I mentioned in the post you quoted. What happens when no more trickling is required? All the guilds hit their proverbial "glass ceilings" and stagnate until the top leaves? That doesn't sound much different than the IB/TMO "transition".

A tiered socialistic system will allow for peaceful transitions of power, the #1 guild simply stops occupying its slot in the rotation and the rotations adjust dynamically based on member guilds while the PVE server remains about PVE challenges. But "peaceful" and "competition are in direct conflict with each other, I know. And so the lowest common denominator reigns.


Deajay, Currently TMO is the only guild who CAN compete on upper tier Velious raiding. Right now we are playing poorly because we don't care much and are severely bored. BDA and FE are playing at their best and still can't compete. Unless you change how you play you will not compete on that level. Can you get better, sure. Will you, who knows. Also, if you are comparing Kunark 32khp mobs with velious raiding you really have no idea whats going on.

Socialistic societies work best when there isn't scarcity. Right now raid targets are highly scarce based on demand. Velious will Decrease scarcity but it will definitely not eliminate it. I expect in velious you will find rotations in VP, on World dragons, and Trakanon, likely even innoruuk, naggy, vox and CT. I would definitely not expect it on the new content for quite a long time.

[Alarti0001]

I've read posts from TMO members stating they will carry around the turn in lute for Undead Bard just to get more Trak BPs, effectively continuing the Bard epic clock block. Velious sure to fix all problems though.

You need to learn to decipher truth from troll. There is no need for kunark bp's come velious.

[Autotune]

can't wait to get my necro BP!

[falkun]

Alarti, not to continue the argument because I generally agree with your points, but you made the Kunark -> Velious comparison and I followed suit. I know the changes that will come with the increased raid-mob HP.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, not to continue the argument because I generally agree with your points, but you made the Kunark -> Velious comparison and I followed suit. I know the changes that will come with the increased raid-mob HP.

I made the comparison because FE and BDA struggle on Kunark mobs when playing their best. While TMO only struggles on kunark mobs when everyone is afk or slacking.

[Tarathiel]

If you were capable of being objective you would notice that TMO has worked with many guilds in the past.

using enraptured as a buffer to evade bans and throwin them some dkp to make up for the utter destruction of their reputation doesnt count

[Kraftwerk]

You need to learn to decipher truth from troll. There is no need for kunark bp's come velious.

That must've been why he said he did it back on live and planned on doing it again. Giving a detailed recitation of his experience on his old server and killing the UDB Trak even though no Bards needed guts.

He was just a dirty troll liar. Makes sense now thanks brah.

[Handull]

I made the comparison because FE and BDA struggle on Kunark mobs when playing their best. While TMO only struggles on kunark mobs when everyone is afk or slacking.

lol

[Alarti0001]

using enraptured as a buffer to evade bans and throwin them some dkp to make up for the utter destruction of their reputation doesnt count

We had a free dragon policy for awhile till BDA shit on that, we have raided with enraptured and taken to allow them to have mobs. We have stayed off engaged for Flawless Victory for hours at a time. We have stayed off engaging for almost anything Divinity is involved in. Even stayed engages for BDA before VD joined them.

We have brought guests on our raids to allow them to kilL Dwagons!. We have offered advice on kills to other guilds, even to the point of loaning or giving out resist gear.

Some stuff we haven't done that some members of your guild or FE has done. We never memblurred raid targets with the intention of getting them to Complete heal when we had no capability of killing that target. We have never supported or reinvited MQ/SEQ users(once discovered) into our guild. We have never had a GM in our guild specifically design raid rules to put our competition at a disadvantage(or less of an advantage). We have never gone against a rotation agreement when one was in affect. We have never avoided suspension when other partners in our raid team were suspended on a joint raid.

[Alarti0001]

That must've been why he said he did it back on live and planned on doing it again. Giving a detailed recitation of his experience on his old server and killing the UDB Trak even though no Bards needed guts.

He was just a dirty troll liar. Makes sense now thanks brah.

Name this person? Was is zeelot? Was it an officer? Is live the same as p1999? Werre there maybe lots of guilds on live who couldnt kill UDB so killing it wouldn't cockblock anyone? So many questions so few answers.

[Autotune]

I've given BDA, Taken and Divinity spawn timers and even told them how to get involved in the raiding scene ages ago.

They don't care, it's all about "what can you do for me now!?"


needy needy needy.

[Kruel]

I've given BDA, Taken and Divinity spawn timers and even told them how to get involved in the raiding scene ages ago.

They don't care, it's all about "what can you do for me now!?"


needy needy needy.

word - the raiding scene is only fun with competition. I actually believe stealin when he says this.

easy kills - tons of loot (maxing out people to fast) actually hurts a guild allot of times. BURNOUT

[Handull]

Some stuff we haven't done that some members of your guild or FE has done. We never memblurred raid targets with the intention of getting them to Complete heal when we had no capability of killing that target. We have never supported or reinvited MQ/SEQ users(once discovered) into our guild. We have never had a GM in our guild specifically design raid rules to put our competition at a disadvantage(or less of an advantage). We have never gone against a rotation agreement when one was in affect. We have never avoided suspension when other partners in our raid team were suspended on a joint raid.

lol, like FE has done any of these things. keep trollin

[Llodd]

Perhaps Velious will be the worst thing to happen for TMO.

I mean, if theres too many raid target to go around, where will the competition be? (unless ofcourse all the talk of how much they like competition is just hot air)

Time will tell. Gonna be a long while yet.

[Alarti0001]

lol, like FE has done any of these things. keep trollin

Re read.... Members of your guild (implying BDA) and FE(members). Alot of these apply specifically to the VD players who are in BDA or FE.

Sorry, you were confused.

[Alarti0001]

Perhaps Velious will be the worst thing to happen for TMO.

I mean, if theres too many raid target to go around, where will the competition be? (unless ofcourse all the talk of how much they like competition is just hot air)

Time will tell. Gonna be a long while yet.

The main problem with Kunark competition is 32k hp mobs. With a significant raid force that are being attentive any mob can just be dps'd down before the mob can kill you. Although, sometimes Hoshkar can be a bitch if he is warping a bit and aoeing all crazy.

In velious the capability of wiping is greatly increased so the competition even if they are slow to arrive will have a greater chance of getting a shot on a baddie. You can not just run into dozekar and engage him instantly. You can't poopsock on his spawn, etc. Planning and preparation will be key as well as proper execution of tank switches/ch chains for the velious battles.

[SupaflyIRL]

The main problem with Kunark competition is 32k hp mobs. With a significant raid force that are being attentive any mob can just be dps'd down before the mob can kill you. Although, sometimes Hoshkar can be a bitch if he is warping a bit and aoeing all crazy.

In velious the capability of wiping is greatly increased so the competition even if they are slow to arrive will have a greater chance of getting a shot on a baddie. You can not just run into dozekar and engage him instantly. You can't poopsock on his spawn, etc. Planning and preparation will be key as well as proper execution of tank switches/ch chains for the velious battles.

this.

[Handull]

Re read.... Members of your guild (implying BDA) and FE(members). Alot of these apply specifically to the VD players who are in BDA or FE.

Sorry, you were confused.

you've confused yourself. while some of the things you listed can apply to one member doing their own thing in the past (mem bluring), other things apply to the whole guild. FE has never had a GM in the guild, and as a guild we do not support inviting known cheaters. etc.

if your point was that members of FE have been in other guilds in the past and during their tenure in those guild(s) that guild has done one of these things, then it most certainly applies to tmo as well, since you have members who used to be in those same guilds, which disproves your entire point of saying "Some stuff we haven't done"

try again

[Funkutron5000]

wtf?

Pretty sure he means when shit died, when it will enter window, and how long the window is.

[arsenalpow]

you've confused yourself. while some of the things you listed can apply to one member doing their own thing in the past (mem bluring), other things apply to the whole guild. FE has never had a GM in the guild, and as a guild we do not support inviting known cheaters. etc.

if your point was that members of FE have been in other guilds in the past and during their tenure in those guild(s) that guild has done one of these things, then it most certainly applies to tmo as well, since you have members who used to be in those same guilds, which disproves your entire point of saying "Some stuff we haven't done"

try again

FE went with the /massgroupbuff guildinvite plan to generate sufficient numbers to run their strat of "log in at 4am and push DPS so we can FTE contest mobs" and there's nothing wrong with that except you can't make that declaration as well. Doesn't really mesh lol.

[Handull]

FE went with the /massgroupbuff guildinvite plan to generate sufficient numbers to run their strat of "log in at 4am and push DPS so we can FTE contest mobs" and there's nothing wrong with that except you can't make that declaration as well. Doesn't really mesh lol.


we vote on new members and whenever someone is suspected of cheating it comes up in the discussion with a unanimous 'no'. what else can i tell ya

[Llodd]

The main problem with Kunark competition is 32k hp mobs. With a significant raid force that are being attentive any mob can just be dps'd down before the mob can kill you. Although, sometimes Hoshkar can be a bitch if he is warping a bit and aoeing all crazy.

In velious the capability of wiping is greatly increased so the competition even if they are slow to arrive will have a greater chance of getting a shot on a baddie. You can not just run into dozekar and engage him instantly. You can't poopsock on his spawn, etc. Planning and preparation will be key as well as proper execution of tank switches/ch chains for the velious battles.

Can't be that different from most expansions on release and then after the guild has equiped themselves up which always trivialises (relatively ofcourse) those same encounters. Much like goin into kunark with none of it's loot when that came out (I don't know, I didn't start raiding until the end of velious when my guild already had most of the loot but I'd be suprised if the same didn't apply )

Is there any concern within TMO that once Velious does materlialise so many people may return that the numbers become unmanageable and beyond zerg? That could be problematic ?

[Alarti0001]

you've confused yourself. while some of the things you listed can apply to one member doing their own thing in the past (mem bluring), other things apply to the whole guild. FE has never had a GM in the guild, and as a guild we do not support inviting known cheaters. etc.

if your point was that members of FE have been in other guilds in the past and during their tenure in those guild(s) that guild has done one of these things, then it most certainly applies to tmo as well, since you have members who used to be in those same guilds, which disproves your entire point of saying "Some stuff we haven't done"

try again

You will notice we haven't invited those members which were involved in those very shady practices. Some of those points were for individual members and some were on guild practices. I suppose I could repost more clearly the divisions if its necessary. Most of the especially shitty VD people who condoned memblur exploiting, and Bischbrotos actions have went to FE. The guild does not inherent their actions just the fact that they would invite such members.

[Maze513]

TMO has on avg around 55 raiders as things stand, So lets say that number doubles for velious. so we are talking 110 or so people, In the hay day of DA/TMO sky runs it want uncommon to avg around 100 people. So there is experience with those kind of numbers there but yes there is the inherent idiot factor that must always be contended with forces of that size. But as long as people do their jobs and listen I think the zerglings will be fine =D

[Servellious]

Did you see the movie Gladiator? Remember at the end, when Maximus is stabbed before the fight with Commodus? Do you think that's competition? That's what you're proposing once again, just as someone from your shitty guild does over and over and over. Here's a hint: getting crippled so that a bunch of unleveled characters played by drooling morons can get some of the kills is not very appealing for the top guild.

Here's my proposal for making BDA competitive: dump your entire officer group and pull team and get someone with a clue.

As a special bonus, here's a hint for future negotiations: you have to actually offer something that appeals to the other side in some way rather than coming up with something that benefits only yourself.

P.S. Maximus still killed Commodus.

Big bad forum warrior, butt hurt over a cloak, personal crusade against bda, actually leveled a Druid past 39 and calls other people bad and bad mouths my guild. What have you done of note in game? Do you even play or just troll the p99 boards?

[Clark]

Questions.

How are guilds supposed to police their players and stop them from stashing any number of alts at raiding camps ahead of time?

How do you police another guild's players?

Punishment for violating this?

Think this is going to be hard to check, as the only people that would find out are other people that are stashing characters in places no one is supposed to be stashed... lol

This, plus I gotta say I disagree with thread idea. Sounds like a bunch of rules and details that will only be followed by some. Stuff doesn't need to be micromanaged it's a game.

[nebulus]

How about 1 lottery mob per week? That's all i got :)

[Autotune]

Every time I see "Do you even play" it reminds me of the "Do you even lift" thing.

[kotton05]

not really sure what to say! rules wont be followed till all are willing to follow.... so prolly a no go=-/

[isoka]

not really sure what to say! rules wont be followed till all are willing to follow.... so prolly a no go=-/

Indeed Kotton. I knew this would most likely end up this way, but I thought players were tired of camping on poop mountain in sebilis a whole year and would eventually say enough and agree to not pre camp.

From all the posts I got in this thread I will draw the following conclusions :

- Some guilds would like to get a bit more information on when Nilbog's raiding changes proposal will come live.
- Most people think that an agreement has to be broken
- The lack of official stance from TMO and the abundance of Alarti's and Jeremy's posts saying that giving more time for other guilds to mobilize is not increasing competition but weakening TMO tells me that they are completely fine with the current raiding scene and have no intent to change anything.

People can keep trying to lure the server about competition, in the end, it's the loot which matters.

I tried to get something done and come to a mutual agreement without any success. If you ever want to try and change things in a near future, the door is still open.
But for now, let's continue the way things are !