Class selection guide draft

[Splorf22]

Was feeling a little bored today.

http://wiki.project1999.org/Loraen%27s_Class_Selection_Guide

[webrunner5]

Wow, nice job. Well done.

[Itap]

Necros on par with ranger/paladin for raids?

Edit- ops, even lower than ranger/pally lol

[Splorf22]

Rangers are actually decent damage on raids and tracking is frequently quite useful in this post-MQ age.

Necros have their moments and zones but my understanding that most boss mobs are immune to their nukes and lifetaps.

[joppykid]

This is awesome.

Druid's are great for rogue's to Duo with as well by Lick/Snare kite. I do this with a druid on my rogue for great exp.

*Edit can do this with a Ranger as well, however Exp isn't as good but still not bad. Better than sitting LFG.

[joppykid]

How do you get to this from the Wiki home page? I was trying to find it that way and could not find it. Is it not on there yet cause it is still a rough draft?

[falkun]

Added my comments to discussion page.

Edit:
How do you get to this from the Wiki home page? I was trying to find it that way and could not find it. Is it not on there yet cause it is still a rough draft?
I've added this guide to the "Hunting/Leveling Guides" portion of the Guides page. From the homepage, select either "Guides" along the left navigation bar or "Leveling, Hunting, and Class guides" under the World tab of the main wiki menu.

[August]

I feel like you might be biased in liking enchanters :).

Personally, however, I would put 'actions' or difficulty or whtaever it was for an ENC at 9, second only to bard. I think it's unfair to lump them w/ shaman and necro.

While SHAM/NEC do have quite a bit to keep up with, and no disrespect to their classes, I can't think of a character doing much more than keeping a charmed pet, keeping mana-intensive, short timed buffs (hello haste) refreshed, and providing CC while grouping.

Bards are only a 10 because of no harmony.

[Splorf22]

Made some mild tweaks to the epic difficulty based on Deajay's feedback.

I actually think there is a case that bards are easier than warriors; TMO is selling a full bard MQ practically for 300k while green dragon scales are 200k+ already by themselves.

Really I think the only important distinction is cleric/shaman/monk/rogue: easy, enchanter/paladin medium, everything else: be prepared to batphone/sock/fork over 300k+

[falkun]

no harmony.

/melody?

Bards can do anything*++.

* Requires 3 second delay
++ Only lasts 18 seconds.

[falkun]

Really I think the only important distinction is cleric/shaman/monk/rogue: easy, everything else: hard.

I wouldn't go that far. Those epics are "easy" because they don't require any raid mobs. Then you have tiers based on how many, how difficult (PVE), and how contested (quasi-PVP) the raid content is. A case can be made for the bard epic being easier than some other epic because 2 of the drops are from multiple dragons and less-contested spawns and the one difficult spawn is a shorter 3-day timer, but then I realized it was the only epic that required 3 full-sized raid drops (I refuse to consider royals to be on the same tier as Naggy/Vox/Tal/Gore).

[Itap]

Necros have their moments and zones but my understanding that most boss mobs are immune to their nukes and lifetaps.

I wonder if this will change during Velious era, where boss fights last a lot longer, and twitch is needed. Also, if lifetaps will land normally...

But that's another thread :p

[Alarti0001]

Personally I think Shamans raid use is a little under-valued. Unresistable Malo, Torpor, Slow, Hp buffs, Dex/Str/Avatar, Group DR/PR would bump them up quite a bit higher than a 7 imo. PE for those shamans with the hammer.

Torpor and avatar alone save raids. Putting an Avatar on a geared rogue is mega dps.

[Splorf22]

I agree with you on the absolute difficulty of the camps DJ, but I think you are forgetting that about 5% of all bards make it to 55+ without having their wrists fall off.

Alarti: I kinda put shamans and enchanters in the same category; the buffs are critical but the classes are kinda boring to play on raids relative to groups.

[Alarti0001]

I wonder if this will change during Velious era, where boss fights last a lot longer, and twitch is needed. Also, if lifetaps will land normally...

But that's another thread :p

Necros are alreayd great puller and come VP great trainers :) Also, come Velious they are pretty awesome on those twitches(as much as they hate it). A manabot than can lich and get a chloro or fungi staff click (or even a super mana efficient torpor) = living tanks.

[falkun]

I agree with you on the absolute difficulty of the camps DJ, but I think you are forgetting that about 5% of all bards make it to 55+ without having their wrists fall off.

This is referring to epics? If so, how does level influence a bard's ability to obtain epic? If level is factored into it, Paladin epic is one of the most difficult epics because the final turn-in REQUIRES L46 (its located in PoFear). Even the bard epic can be MQed to a L1.

The MQ pricing set by TMO is arbitrary to "difficulty" of the mob and is only influenced by market economics. Warrior gear is inherently expensive due to the gear-dependent nature of the class you've already pointed out. For instance, when a warrior replaces his weapons with epics, he's probably replacing 50k-200k in gear (RMOY, BOTBDE). Any bard not replacing a Breath of Harmony (5-6k) with the epic is wrong. The warrior doesn't have to farm as much to replace his existing kit with epics.

[Alarti0001]

I agree with you on the absolute difficulty of the camps DJ, but I think you are forgetting that about 5% of all bards make it to 55+ without having their wrists fall off.

Alarti: I kinda put shamans and enchanters in the same category; the buffs are critical but the classes are kinda boring to play on raids relative to groups.

Ahh so its based on entertainment factor?

Is this a generalized guide or does it include velious etc?

[Splorf22]

No Deajay my point was supply and demand. The Bard Epic has insanely low supply but low demand compared to something like the warrior epic with low supply and medium-high demand.

Alarti: well I think most people have fun when they do things and don't have fun when they don't do things. We are all hamsters on the treadmill here. So yeah if you want to argue that enchanters and shaman should be a 10 for utter necessity on raids I won't argue with you.

Also I have no experience with Velious, so I'm just going off of what I see now.

[falkun]

I'll agree with the supply and demand, if that wasn't already clear from my "market economics" explanation.

[Alarti0001]

No Deajay my point was supply and demand. The Bard Epic has insanely low supply but low demand compared to something like the warrior epic with low supply and medium-high demand.

Alarti: well I think most people have fun when they do things and don't have fun when they don't do things. We are all hamsters on the treadmill here. So yeah if you want to argue that enchanters and shaman should be a 10 for utter necessity on raids I won't argue with you.

Also I have no experience with Velious, so I'm just going off of what I see now.

just questions.

[rafaone]

Good Job, now i realize druids not that good char lol

[senna]

Good Job, now i realize druids not that good char lol

Depends on what your playstyle is.

I like to be able to travel all over, buff and heal, and also be able to solo like a monster and quad kite. I also think its tons of fun to go help some newbie out and make his day. I think the druid fits that ticket perfectly and I'm very happy with the class.

Its all about having fun, you can be the best raid char on the server but if you're not enjoying the character then why bother.

[Slave]

I would label the row Magician, as Mage is the shortened, familiar version of this name and not officially used.

[Zalora]

Enchanter is better at solo'ing than Druid?


That's the first time I've heard this.

[August]

Enchanter is better at solo'ing than Druid?


That's the first time I've heard this.

Depends on what you mean by 'better'. Druid is good at soloing outdoors / quad kiting.

A good enchanter can solo anything he or she likes. Charm DPS outclasses any other DPS in game and serves as killing two birds w/ one stone. I solo'ed bloodgills (8 spawns) by charming one and killing the other, breaking mez, nuking the running mob, rinse and repeat. Not bad for ~400 mana.

[Itap]

Enchanter is better at solo'ing than Druid?


That's the first time I've heard this.

Chanters are the ultimate soloers, please refer to the solo artist challenge thread :cool:

[Tecmos Deception]

Oh nevermind. I don't want to be OT in Splorf's thread!

<3 your wiki contributions.

[Itap]

Tecmos, she trollin bro.


or do i mean "he"

[Splorf22]

Well I gave Druids a 7 for solo xp and 6 for solo pp (powerleveling basically) so it isn't like they are bad. And Kindadar and Ploktor have shown you can do some pretty awesome stuff with Druids, especially with that VP robe. And Druids have a lot of useful toys.

The problem is their raid role is minimal (aside from porting people), and in full groups their versatility doesn't really come into play, and in small groups they suffer from lack of slow.

[Itap]

Oh nevermind. I don't want to be OT in Splorf's thread!

<3 your wiki contributions.

Thanks now my post makes no sense!

[webrunner5]

Depends on what your playstyle is.

I like to be able to travel all over, buff and heal, and also be able to solo like a monster and quad kite. I also think its tons of fun to go help some newbie out and make his day. I think the druid fits that ticket perfectly and I'm very happy with the class.

Its all about having fun, you can be the best raid char on the server but if you're not enjoying the character then why bother.

Not counting making a shit pot full of plat porting. :eek: Plus I would have to put a Druid a lot higher than 4 for groups? I think more like a 5 or even 6 would be more better lol.

[Splorf22]

How do you justify that a Paladin with 4 in raid effectiveness requires the same skill as SKs who have 8?

Because there are 5 columns for effectiveness, and only one is raiding? Paladins are a group class. But hey I have not played an SK or every class in the game <shrug>

Also Necros as gear dependant as wizards? Eh? You need a huge mana pool to quad kite while necro can solo naked...

Sure you can fear kite without much mana, but by that logic wizards can group/kill single targets without much gear too. I have played a necro charm soloing HS, and I wanted all the HP I could get.

Ultimately the guide is my guide with my opinions. If you don't like it, write your own.

[Yardcore]

You are the man! (or woman :))

[Furme]

I can tell these numbers are REALLY biased, not to mention a bit vague..

First off.. solo exp.. as a mage? 9? Not since the pet damage exp nerf went in.. A lot of mages tell me it's ridiculously time/mana intensive to chain cast pets to try to keep their exp..

Enchanter? may be good.. but i'm going to say there should be a gap between bard and everyone else of at least 2-3 points.. just by the sheer scale of exp a solo bard can get vs everyone else.. That being said, bards are only good at solo exp till around 53ish maybe 55 if you stretch it.. Past that.. solo exp is pretty much garbage.. duo exp is where it's at..

Solo pp is highly subjective.. Sure, an enchanter can possibly solo some of the more high dollar item camps.. at 60, but at the same time.. it's entirely luck based.. (theoretically someone could camp sarnak courier in loio and get 10 GG rings in an hour for 100k) If you're talking about a pure plat camp like hill giants or seafuries then a necro could probably solo more plat there than an enchanter could ever dream about in an equal time.. If you're talking about gear farming that entirely depends on selling to players and how much they'll pay for it..

Duo/trio.. uh.. just fyi as just about any character save a pure caster.. I'd probably never duo with an enchanter.. I mean, I can make up ways to duo with any class, but like.. I don't really see Wizard / Enchanter duo happening.. or like.. bard enchanter duo.. I mean, if you're counting charm as an enchanter's *ONLY* asset for a duo and saying "Well hell, a charmed pet can duo with anything! derp derp" then I can see them getting a 10.. but in that case, a bard should rank up there with enchanters.. so should druids and necros.. Similarly, have you ever seen 2 bards duo? If you had, I'm SURE the scale would be rate differently.. But of course, that's an outlier..

Group effectiveness.. A bard post 55 can regen more raw mana per tick than a chanter could ever hope to.. They can also mez 2 mobs without a second thought.. they can also push haste to the entire group and slow to boot.. But, lets say you get 2 or 3 bards in a group.. it wouldn't be quite as grand because their songs don't really play well together.. I mean.. I don't know how a group would work with say.. 6 enchanters.. Maybe all of them charm something and throw them all at the same target? I mean.. I guess again like the above items it's all subjective based on the group's needs..

I mean, I could go on but over all.. it's incredibly subjective and debatable..
In the end.. Just play whatever the hell you want.. They all have their strengths and their weaknesses.. And some strengths are weaknesses for some people and some weaknesses are strengths for others..

[joppykid]

Why are you getting so fired up? He did this for fun, it's a wiki. Go make your own if he did such a poor job on it.

[formallydickman]

Thanks for making this. Some of you may disagree with ratings here and there, but if you were new to the server, rusty after 10 years off EQ, wouldn't you find this helpful? As with most guides this is probably intended for newer or less experienced players as a stepping stone to personal experience.

Chill out bros

[Tecmos Deception]

I can tell these numbers are REALLY biased, not to mention a bit vague..

First off.. solo exp.. as a mage? 9? Not since the pet damage exp nerf went in.. A lot of mages tell me it's ridiculously time/mana intensive to chain cast pets to try to keep their exp..

Enchanter? may be good.. but i'm going to say there should be a gap between bard and everyone else of at least 2-3 points.. just by the sheer scale of exp a solo bard can get vs everyone else.. That being said, bards are only good at solo exp till around 53ish maybe 55 if you stretch it.. Past that.. solo exp is pretty much garbage.. duo exp is where it's at..

Solo pp is highly subjective.. Sure, an enchanter can possibly solo some of the more high dollar item camps.. at 60, but at the same time.. it's entirely luck based.. (theoretically someone could camp sarnak courier in loio and get 10 GG rings in an hour for 100k) If you're talking about a pure plat camp like hill giants or seafuries then a necro could probably solo more plat there than an enchanter could ever dream about in an equal time.. If you're talking about gear farming that entirely depends on selling to players and how much they'll pay for it..

Duo/trio.. uh.. just fyi as just about any character save a pure caster.. I'd probably never duo with an enchanter.. I mean, I can make up ways to duo with any class, but like.. I don't really see Wizard / Enchanter duo happening.. or like.. bard enchanter duo.. I mean, if you're counting charm as an enchanter's *ONLY* asset for a duo and saying "Well hell, a charmed pet can duo with anything! derp derp" then I can see them getting a 10.. but in that case, a bard should rank up there with enchanters.. so should druids and necros.. Similarly, have you ever seen 2 bards duo? If you had, I'm SURE the scale would be rate differently.. But of course, that's an outlier..

Group effectiveness.. A bard post 55 can regen more raw mana per tick than a chanter could ever hope to.. They can also mez 2 mobs without a second thought.. they can also push haste to the entire group and slow to boot.. But, lets say you get 2 or 3 bards in a group.. it wouldn't be quite as grand because their songs don't really play well together.. I mean.. I don't know how a group would work with say.. 6 enchanters.. Maybe all of them charm something and throw them all at the same target? I mean.. I guess again like the above items it's all subjective based on the group's needs..

I mean, I could go on but over all.. it's incredibly subjective and debatable..
In the end.. Just play whatever the hell you want.. They all have their strengths and their weaknesses.. And some strengths are weaknesses for some people and some weaknesses are strengths for others..

Lol.

Like, part of me wants to debate almost everything you say. But all of me is too busy loling to do so.


Like other people said. Splorf's guide is great for what it is. It's not a definitive, authoritative, exhaustive explanation of everything possible in the game of everquest. It sounds like you could write one of those though. You should. It would be fun... for me.

[joppykid]

Thanks for making this. Some of you may disagree with ratings here and there, but if you were new to the server, rusty after 10 years off EQ, wouldn't you find this helpful? As with most guides this is probably intended for newer or less experienced players as a stepping stone on the path to personal experience.

Chill out bros

I agree, everyone is going to think of how classes are ranked a little differently. This is a great reference for anyone starting out. I don't think a point here or there is going to make a difference in what class someone chooses. I think that the Duo combos are great since that question comes up all the time on here. Again, Thanks Loraen!

[Furme]

Why are you getting so fired up? He did this for fun, it's a wiki. Go make your own if he did such a poor job on it.

People here generally demand explanations behind criticism, otherwise they say "Lulz, you have no idea what ur talking about REEETARD!"

/shrug, thus I explain my reasoning behind my critique.

Personally, I think things like this actually hinder new players and make it more confusing for them..

Looking at this list while throwing my current eq knowledge out the window.. I'm going to have to choose an enchanter because obviously 9 solo 10 duo 10 group and 10 solo plat.. every other class doesn't even begin to compare.. not to mention at 25 i'll have a little bit of difficulty in the power.. but as soon as i hit 50 I'll be Teh moast powerfulll class in EQ!!! and 60 I'll maintain that!

yeah.. Definitely not the case..

[joppykid]

I'd say that enchanter's being the best overall class combined for Groups, Raiding, duoing and soloing is pretty accurate. Being pretty close with Shaman. I kind of get what you're saying but I don't understand why you're under the impression Enchanter's aren't viable in all aspects of the game post 50?

[Tecmos Deception]

He needs to stop slamming Splorf's assessment of enchanters until after he digests all of Splorf's guide for enchanters.

[joppykid]

People here generally demand explanations behind criticism, otherwise they say "Lulz, you have no idea what ur talking about REEETARD!"

/shrug, thus I explain my reasoning behind my critique.

.

fair enough

[Splorf22]

I can tell these numbers are REALLY biased, not to mention a bit vague..

First off.. solo exp.. as a mage? 9? Not since the pet damage exp nerf went in.. A lot of mages tell me it's ridiculously time/mana intensive to chain cast pets to try to keep their exp..

this is a pretty good point actually. I docked mages from 9 to 7 and necros from 9 to 8.

Looking at this list while throwing my current eq knowledge out the window.. I'm going to have to choose an enchanter because obviously 9 solo 10 duo 10 group and 10 solo plat.. every other class doesn't even begin to compare.. not to mention at 25 i'll have a little bit of difficulty in the power.. but as soon as i hit 50 I'll be Teh moast powerfulll class in EQ!!! and 60 I'll maintain that!

And its basically the case here tbh. If you look at the solo artist challenge, the only solo masters and grandmasters are enchanters, shamans, and Ploktor.

edit: thinking some more about this i docked enchanters a few points here and there. You should all go play shadowknights!

[Alarti0001]

Lol.

Like, part of me wants to debate almost everything you say. But all of me is too busy loling to do so.


Like other people said. Splorf's guide is great for what it is. It's not a definitive, authoritative, exhaustive explanation of everything possible in the game of everquest. It sounds like you could write one of those though. You should. It would be fun... for me.

^^

[Furme]

I'd say that enchanter's being the best overall class combined for Groups, Raiding, duoing and soloing is pretty accurate. Being pretty close with Shaman. I kind of get what you're saying but I don't understand why you're under the impression Enchanter's aren't viable in all aspects of the game post 50?

Grouping okay, a good enchanters is amazing in a group.. fact is though, imagine having a group and already having 1 enchanter.. would you fill your spot with a second enchanter? how bout a third?.. I know I'd do that with rogues, or warriors, or maybe even mages.. I don't know about enchanters.. They have a risk associated with their charm pets, that is if it breaks and they take a bad round they could wipe the group..

On a raid enchanters are buffbots and then useless.. Ask them, They have VERY specific roles on certain encounters, and afterwards they're deathtouch fodder.. How about dragon raids.. After they c2 and haste the raid.. what's their role? Understand, I know necros are about the same.. but still, I'd much rather have an additional wizard/rogue on a raid than an additional enchanter..

Soloing, Everyone has different strengths.. Show me an enchanter that can charm solo a mob that chain dispels.. A necro could fear kite it, a shaman could slow it, tank it and dot it.. Different strengths..

In specific situations different classes excel, and most classes can do things that every other class can't.. Likewise, Player skill has a HUGE impact on how well they can do things..

With the proper player behind a necro they could rival an enchanter in soloability, with the proper player behind a bard, they could too.. That's why I say.. To each their own..

[joppykid]

I know what you mean. We just need a class chart for every situation now :)

[Splorf22]

Grouping okay, a good enchanters is amazing in a group.. fact is though, imagine having a group and already having 1 enchanter.. would you fill your spot with a second enchanter? how bout a third?.. I know I'd do that with rogues, or warriors, or maybe even mages.. I don't know about enchanters.. They have a risk associated with their charm pets, that is if it breaks and they take a bad round they could wipe the group..

Just not true. To give you a story, one time Save, Beverage, and I (=enc/enc/clr) were looking for a South key. We aggroed the big room in West plus an additional room (=10+ mobs). And we killed them all.

On a raid enchanters are buffbots and then useless.. Ask them, They have VERY specific roles on certain encounters, and afterwards they're deathtouch fodder.. How about dragon raids.. After they c2 and haste the raid.. what's their role? Understand, I know necros are about the same.. but still, I'd much rather have an additional wizard/rogue on a raid than an additional enchanter..

I rated enchanters a 7 (docked to a 6) on raids. Actually they should be way more effective then they are; Enchanters can charm on any raid outside of vp for solid damage but it never happens because people zerg the bosses down.

Soloing, Everyone has different strengths.. Show me an enchanter that can charm solo a mob that chain dispels.. A necro could fear kite it, a shaman could slow it, tank it and dot it.. Different strengths..

In specific situations different classes excel, and most classes can do things that every other class can't.. Likewise, Player skill has a HUGE impact on how well they can do things..

With the proper player behind a necro they could rival an enchanter in soloability, with the proper player behind a bard, they could too.. That's why I say.. To each their own..

I think you need to read the solo artist challenge thread.

[Vexenu]

It's pretty indisputable at this point that chanters are the most powerful overall class in skilled hands. So powerful that if the solo artist challenge thread had existed back in the day showing what they could do solo, it's very likely the class would have been nerfed substantially, possibly even totally overhauled, with their abilities being spread around to other classes.

[Furme]

Just not true. To give you a story, one time Save, Beverage, and I (=enc/enc/clr) were looking for a South key. We aggroed the big room in West plus an additional room (=10+ mobs). And we killed them all.

heh That sounds awesome, I guess the difficulty in replicating it would be making sure you had 3 very competent players who were on their game.. I don't know that I'm convinced that any Enc/ enc/ clr (60s i assume) could pull off the same =)


I rated enchanters a 7 (docked to a 6) on raids. Actually they should be way more effective then they are; Enchanters can charm on any raid outside of vp for solid damage but it never happens because people zerg the bosses down.


I'm with you in hoping that this changes.. Hopefully, Velious changes this, I know that mobs have much more hp.. It might warrant a strategy change..


I think you need to read the solo artist challenge thread.

I have, but at the same time.. I acknowledge the fact that it's a challenge.. It takes Serious skill.. and sometimes expensive items (puppet strings etc).. Like, I guess my point would be.. You're a damn good enchanter, and able to solo incredibly well.. Svenn appears to be likewise a damn good shaman and able to solo incredibly well..

If both of you swapped places, I believe that both of you could pull off "some" of the same feats on the other's character.. but he's had 60+ levels of practicing shaman skills, and you've had 60+ levels of practicing enchanter skills..

I don't know that every joe schmoe 60 enchanter could pull off the solo artist challenge as well as you did..

[webrunner5]

You have done a great job on this Splorf22. And glad to see you are tweeking it a bit. Thanks.

[falkun]

But by that logic ANY player will have 60 levels of practice on whatever character they choose. Loraen's guide shows, to the best of his ability, what a class is CAPABLE of. You can still have complete morons and absolute gods that will take a class to the extremely horrible and great, respectively.

With respect to taking more enchanters in groups. The only 2 spots in a group I wouldn't give to Enchanters (in a 6-man group) is the healer (torpor sham or cleric) and bard (me, because I'd want in). 4 ENC with hasted pets are going to outdps e'rybody. And if Alarti wants to come in here and talk about Avatar and PE, let the shaman toss that on the pet (and pray it doesn't destroy the enc when it breaks).

[Invurnus]

Very cool idea. I must say it's a bit disheartening to see wizzies as the worst overall class at 60 (non-raid). I told myself I was going to pick the class that was the most interesting to me, practicality be damned, but I can't help but QQ a little at that. Probably pretty accurate though, as even at 29 resists really sap the class' DPS.

[Elements]

Grouping okay, a good enchanters is amazing in a group.. fact is though, imagine having a group and already having 1 enchanter.. would you fill your spot with a second enchanter? how bout a third?.. I know I'd do that with rogues, or warriors, or maybe even mages.. I don't know about enchanters.. They have a risk associated with their charm pets, that is if it breaks and they take a bad round they could wipe the group..

On a raid enchanters are buffbots and then useless.. Ask them, They have VERY specific roles on certain encounters, and afterwards they're deathtouch fodder.. How about dragon raids.. After they c2 and haste the raid.. what's their role? Understand, I know necros are about the same.. but still, I'd much rather have an additional wizard/rogue on a raid than an additional enchanter..

Soloing, Everyone has different strengths.. Show me an enchanter that can charm solo a mob that chain dispels.. A necro could fear kite it, a shaman could slow it, tank it and dot it.. Different strengths..

In specific situations different classes excel, and most classes can do things that every other class can't.. Likewise, Player skill has a HUGE impact on how well they can do things..

With the proper player behind a necro they could rival an enchanter in soloability, with the proper player behind a bard, they could too.. That's why I say.. To each their own..

Chanters and shamans are clearly the overall alpha class of the game currently. Sure chanters may just sit there once they have buffed on a dragon encounter, but imagine that raid force without chanter buffs. Those buffs are huge. As for groups id almost always take additional enchanters to fill dps slots over wizards/rogues. Charm dps is just so much higher sustained. That being said id rather keep an xp group small than just fill it up anyway. I like bards and they definitely can fill many roles but not to the same extent that other classes can with the exception of being mana batteries, providing resists, kiting, and pulling certain camps.

[Furme]

But by that logic ANY player will have 60 levels of practice on whatever character they choose. Loraen's guide shows, to the best of his ability, what a class is CAPABLE of. You can still have complete morons and absolute gods that will take a class to the extremely horrible and great, respectively.

I consider myself a pretty good swimmer.. but at the same time.. I wouldn't challenge Michael Phelps to a race.. In statistics he would be called an outlier.. Setting the scale to an outlier is ridiculous, because for one it diminishes the achievement of the person who accomplished it. By saying "This is what every <: insert class here :> is doing" and secondly it sets a skewed perspective for the person using the guide. (read: a new player)..


With respect to taking more enchanters in groups. The only 2 spots in a group I wouldn't give to Enchanters (in a 6-man group) is the healer (torpor sham or cleric) and bard (me, because I'd want in). 4 ENC with hasted pets are going to outdps e'rybody. And if Alarti wants to come in here and talk about Avatar and PE, let the shaman toss that on the pet (and pray it doesn't destroy the enc when it breaks).

If you really want to hear it again.. In an average group.. with average enchanters.. Not the ones that are in the top 20% of the server.. Would you take an extra enchanter over a rogue? I know most other players on this server wouldn't..

Subnote: I do like enchanters.. I do appreciate that they are one of the most powerful character classes with their abilities to charm, block damage, mez, and stun..
I also know that not every uber-skilled player really wants to participate in the solo artist challenge and that a skilled alternate class is just as useful as an equally skilled enchanter in a group.. I've seen one bard turn an entire group from a failure to a success.. and the same with every other class..

That being said, The point still needed to be made that certain classes were out of whack.. I agree that it's a good reference point, but now it's a bit more accurate..
As I said before though.. Every class is situational, and has their own things that they do better than every other class.. (cept maybe paladins and shadowknights, they're kind of balanced in a lot of aspects)

[Furme]

Chanters and shamans are clearly the overall alpha class of the game currently. Sure chanters may just sit there once they have buffed on a dragon encounter, but imagine that raid force without chanter buffs. Those buffs are huge. As for groups id almost always take additional enchanters to fill dps slots over wizards/rogues. Charm dps is just so much higher sustained. That being said id rather keep an xp group small than just fill it up anyway. I like bards and they definitely can fill many roles but not to the same extent that other classes can with the exception of being mana batteries, providing resists, kiting, and pulling certain camps.

Imagine that raid force without a single warrior.. or without a single shaman.. I mean, I'm not saying that you absolutely couldn't do the encounter without a warrior, or without a shaman.. but it would be Much harder fought.. Same thing with an enchanter.. The point is though, that after the enchanter buffs the raid before the dragon.. The enchanter can log out and no one would be able to tell the difference.. That being said, their raid usefulness is limited, which is unique to them over any other class.. I mean, they could try chain runing the tank.. or casting cancel magic on melees.. but for the most part.. They'd be better served just logging over to a more useful character if they had one..

[joppykid]

Don't Dragons die in about 10 seconds anyways?

[Tecmos Deception]

Furme, you're missing the point.

Splorf's listing of the solo power of the classes is talking about each class's POTENTIAL for solo achievement. The best player in the world isn't going to be able to accomplish much solo if he is playing a rogue or a warrior, therefore rogues and warriors receive terrible ratings for their solo potential.

[Vladesch]

Druid and wizards should be higher on solo.
Druids especially since they can charm kite till 34. (or beyond if that is their preference)
Quad kiting is hard to beat.

I would rank druid, necro and bard all as 10 for solo. Wizard as 9 because they don't have a lot of options before getting their ae spell.

Ability at solo artist challenge has almost nothing to do with what a newbie will be considering when he checks solo ability here. Not sure why people keep using it as a reason to justify this table (I'm assuming your soloXP column is a general guide on how quickly you can level up soloing)

Also enchanters being 5 for gear isn't really accurate. I would say a 1 if they are grouping and maybe an 8 for charm soloing. It takes a fair bit of gear to get your charisma up. You really need 2 columns for gear.

Just my 2c worth...

[Messianic]

Druid and wizards should be higher on solo.
Druids especially since they can charm kite till 34. (or beyond if that is their preference)
Quad kiting is hard to beat.

I would rank druid, necro and bard all as 10 for solo. Wizard as 9 because they don't have a lot of options before getting their ae spell.

Ability at solo artist challenge has almost nothing to do with what a newbie will be considering when he checks solo ability here. Not sure why people keep using it as a reason to justify this table (I'm assuming your soloXP column is a general guide on how quickly you can level up soloing)

Also enchanters being 5 for gear isn't really accurate. I would say a 1 if they are grouping and maybe an 8 for charm soloing. It takes a fair bit of gear to get your charisma up. You really need 2 columns for gear.

Just my 2c worth...


Wizard soloing from 24-54 is darn near the fastest in the game. After that, its garbage.

[Splorf22]

I suppose it doesn't take an IQ much above room temperature to quad kite with a wizard. Although TBH I don't think enchanter charm soloing is that hard either if you stay outdoors.

And yeah Vlad, I agree that as an enchanter you don't need as much gear for grouping. But I think that holds for any class; full buffs help a lot and the group can carry players who aren't as well geared. I don't think enchanters are SO gear dependent though, look at Tecmos' shitty gear on the wiki as an example.

[Reiker000]

Didn't have a chance to read the entire thread yet but a few thoughts on shaman:

Epic: Should be a 10. It's incredibly easy and honestly I'd rather do the shaman epic than the rogue, even though the reward isn't nearly as nice.

Actions: Should be a 9, if not a 10. It scales as you level, but at 60 there's never a moment where you shouldn't be doing something. If you have mana you cast spells and if you don't have mana you cast torpor/canni. There's always something to be casting, constantly.

Gear: Shaman aren't as gear dependent as melees. Their hp/mana are always in flux while neither is maxed, so your pools don't matter much. Getting more HP means you can more comfortably maintain that hp/mana flux. It's worth noting though that the good shaman items are quite expensive. Some cheap wisdom stuff isn't really going to make much of a difference due to the aforementioned reasons, and the hp gear you'll want like black sapphire jewelry, platinum tiara, heiro cloak, etc. carries a bit of a premium.

Other stuff seems about right, except judging a shaman's raid value is difficult. Of course things like buffs, malo, patch heals, etc. are useful, but velious is a little different. There are fights like Aaryonar that completely depend on your shaman, and fights like Avatar of War where you're better off just boxing a cleric. Satisfied with being tied with monk for skill, considering how much skill goes into FD pulling professionally.

[Slave]

I don't think enchanters are SO gear dependent though, look at Tecmos' shitty gear on the wiki as an example.

LOL, burn.

[Smilkers]

Rogue should def. not be listed on-par with the skill level of Cleric/Druid. Seems like it should be listed in the lowest tier as far as skill is concerned.
Possibly even as low as a 1. Not too much skill is required to move behind a target and spam backstab, or to press sneak and stealth / drag corpses past mobs.

Clerics constantly need to monitor entire group HPs, and cleric chains in raids require precise timing. Clerics can also add even more difficulty to their class when charming an undead pet. Druids are sometimes the only CC in group with roots, and druids need split-second reactions to evac a group if a wipe is imminent. Druids can also increase their difficulty when charming an animal.

edit: I would even nitpick that playing a Druid well requires more skill than playing a Cleric.
Druids have to manage their mana at a much more discretionary level, and we have a lot to do in order to participate strongly in a group.

eg: short term DS rebuffing, multiple resists buffing, 15-minute regen rebuffing, nukes when mana is too high, druid arm-dot whenever possible -- and at times -- filling the primary healer role, while still keeping on top of all the aforementioned duties (or CC'ing).
I have been primary healer and primary CC in groups many, many times. Sometimes while maintaining a pet. Clerics can't touch 'dis. :D

[MaksimMazor]

There comes some challenge to playin' a rogue. Back when gauntlet pulls worked you could pull off some crazy pulls if you knew what you were doing, one false move to slow your run speed would get you killed. There's some skill and logic involved with evades and controlling aggro on mobs that kill you in seconds. Also the hide/sneak bug that negates your invis if you loot while still showing your name in ( ) and giving no msgs. If you happen to play while high/drunk occasionally you could forget and train your whole group/raid in an instant. You also get to backstab really hard.

_______________________
Gabobrik Jenantik - Assassin

[Estu]

Druid and wizards should be higher on solo.
Druids especially since they can charm kite till 34. (or beyond if that is their preference)
Quad kiting is hard to beat.

I would rank druid, necro and bard all as 10 for solo. Wizard as 9 because they don't have a lot of options before getting their ae spell.

Have to disagree super-hard here. First, bard solo EXP is far and away the best solo EXP in the game. Doesn't even compare to anything else. An earlier poster said that bard solo EXP should be around 10 and everyone else should be at most 7 or so; this is absolutely justified.

Second, quad kiting is overrated. Charming is much faster EXP than quad kiting because it takes much less mana for what you're getting (two dead mobs). A druid who quad kites for EXP instead of charming animals is taking the easy way out and EXPing slower as a result (the plus side is you can AFK during your long med breaks). This means that any class that can charm effectively will automatically be a better soloer than a wizard.

Basically, solo EXP ranking, based on hours per level (from best to worst), is something like this: bard kiting >>> charming > quad-kiting > pets > root-dot > root/snare-nuke > anything else. (This doesn't list some less common methods of leveling, just the major ones.)


---


Unrelated note: I feel like the 25/50/60 rankings need some work. For instance, wizards are shown as 10/8/4 for 25/50/60, which is completely unjustified: they can't even quad-kite until level 29 when they get their AE snare, and they are great at high levels for AE groups (using point blank AEs) and raid nuking. If anything, their scale should be reversed.

[Tecmos Deception]

I don't think enchanters are SO gear dependent though, look at Tecmos' shitty gear on the wiki as an example.

Hahaha.

I said I wasn't going to read this thread anymore, but I'm glad I came back for this. Lol :)

[Fazlazen]

I'd put shadow knight at 10 for raiding. There is at the moment no better class than a SK for pulling. Whether it is kiting fear or pulling in hate/fear or pulling/training in VP, a SK will always be the best to do it. And for everything that is not hoshkar, nexona or a quadding druushk, sk can tank them np if properly geared.

They are the best raiding char currently.

Monks are too high on the list for raiding. They mostly fill the role of rogues, but dont dps as well.

[theaetatus]

I'd put shadow knight at 10 for raiding. There is at the moment no better class than a SK for pulling. Whether it is kiting fear or pulling in hate/fear or pulling/training in VP, a SK will always be the best to do it. And for everything that is not hoshkar, nexona or a quadding druushk, sk can tank them np if properly geared.

They are the best raiding char currently.

Monks are too high on the list for raiding. They mostly fill the role of rogues, but dont dps as well.

As someone who has played both, I completely disagree. If there are any 55+ warriors in the raid, you don't want the SK tanking anything serious. Sure, they tank the trash well with nice snap aggro but lots of other classes can do that.

As for pulling, monk is better in 90% of situations and also brings double the dps.

[Splorf22]

OK, I'm convinced by a few of these arguments.

Shamans get a 10 on epic and an 8 on actions.

I put wizards as 10/8/4 on power curve because thats their curve for single target nukes. Changed the to 8/10/8 which more reflects their quad kiting ability.

I think wizards and druids as a 7 on solo compared to enchanters/necros at 8 is fine.

I guess I never get to see the great druids in action as I play an Enchanter usually :D I actually think you are shortchanging clerics who can do a bit of CC and stuns as well. But OK, gonna move clerics to 5 and druids to 6 for skill.

SKs: I'm open to suggestions here. I don't even really know how SKs pull other than taunt/cos and fd/send pet. On the raids I've been on Monks are the pullers usually. I've actually been curious to try SK; PM me all your tricks guys :D :D

[Fazlazen]

As someone who has played both, I completely disagree. If there are any 55+ warriors in the raid, you don't want the SK tanking anything serious. Sure, they tank the trash well with nice snap aggro but lots of other classes can do that.

As for pulling, monk is better in 90% of situations and also brings double the dps.

The only zones that require fd pulling on p99 are fear, hate and VP. In fear the only mob you'll be pulling is draco, and with nothing in the zone seeing hide, sks generally do better there.

In hate, Maestro is a single pull for decent sks in a fully popped zone. I have not seen monks do that. Inny is a single pull to zone in provided there are no golems on the way for both sks and monks.

VP, well VP is all about sks, gotta love that hide.

And I think you are right, warriors with defensive do better at tanking than sks, but sks make solid tanks as well, especially at the speed mobs die on p99. I wouldnt take a lvl 55 warrior over a 60 sk on fearing dragons.

[Fazlazen]

OK, I'm convinced by a few of these arguments.

Shamans get a 10 on epic and an 8 on actions.

I put wizards as 10/8/4 on power curve because thats their curve for single target nukes. Changed the to 8/10/8 which more reflects their quad kiting ability.

I think wizards and druids as a 7 on solo compared to enchanters/necros at 8 is fine.

I guess I never get to see the great druids in action as I play an Enchanter usually :D I actually think you are shortchanging clerics who can do a bit of CC and stuns as well. But OK, gonna move clerics to 5 and druids to 6 for skill.

SKs: I'm open to suggestions here. I don't even really know how SKs pull other than taunt/cos and fd/send pet. On the raids I've been on Monks are the pullers usually. I've actually been curious to try SK; PM me all your tricks guys :D :D

I'm not giving you my tricks, but anyone who has raided for a while, especially in TMO, will tell you that sks usually do more pulling than anyone else. It seems to me that other guilds rely more heavily on monks, but I think it is more due to the stereotype that monk are the pullers and sks are trash tanks, which is really not the case once you start to play around on your sk.

[-Catherin-]

Really, this is an opinions thread with the help of some information to narrow it down a little bit.

Loraen, you had to know that this would trigger a bunch of people chest-thumping and saying why thier class deserves a higher score :p

I'm a Chanter though, so I wont do that. I agree with you entirely!

[Dark Team]

You could consider adding ease of solo PvP and group PvP viability scores.

[Spoonerism]

I looked but couldn't find the info.

Do higher numbers = better?

Do higher numbers = more difficult?

So a solo exp of 3 = not the best? While a solo exp of 10 would be the best?

And epic of 10 would be most difficult to obtain while epic of 3 would be easier to obtain?

Just curious!

[formallydickman]

1 = worst, or hardest
10 = best, or easiest

except it looks like the gear category works opposite of some of the other ones. A high score there means you are MORE gear dependent (which should = MORE difficult resulting in a low score)

[Tecmos Deception]

You could consider adding ease of solo PvP and group PvP viability scores.

God damn red trolls.

[Nordenwatch]

As a necro main, I think you underestimate how much work it takes to play a necro well. There is never a moment where you aren't doing something. Do you know how much work it is to keep DMF on a group?

[Galvatar]

I believe Clerics should be listed as good duo partners for Necros, due to not only their ability to heal the mana the necro liches down, but also for the added CC/Stun for charm duoing as well as being able to patch up their allies on a botched charm/pull/really crappy break.

[Itap]

Do you know how much work it is to keep DMF on a group?

lol'd