Camping Raid Mobs... gone on long enough ?!

[randomer]

Camping Raid Mobs etc... gone on long enough ? isnt it about time guilds/gms come to some sort of agreement ? this is pretty crazy the state of the raid game on the server,normal players should have at least a chance of reliving the classic raid experience on this server, this server is great but for the majority the way it stands now they will never get a chance at the most fun encounters in the game cause of the current raid rules this could be the downfall on this server unfortunately... so your thoughts on this please ? keep it clean! ffs

[Skope]

Yea, it's kind of crazy right now and it has been for the past 2-3 weeks. Sitting on a raid boss / dragon for 3-4 days at a time burns people out quite quickly. Not to mention it also promotes people bypassing the server rules -- and you saw a sudden and massive increase in IP exemptions -- because they're forced to use their mains to sit afk on a raid to get first dibs.

It's kind of sickening for all parties involved. Personally I'd like to see a rotation implemented, it'd solve a lot of problems and let people finally get some sleep.

[iamjack]

BOXING FTW!!

[Uaellaen]

and you saw a sudden and massive increase in IP exemptions

I wonder how you saw this? I can not read all petitions in the exploit forum, can you?

[Skope]

I wonder how you saw this? I can not read all petitions in the exploit forum, can you?

No, but I've certainly heard about some, seen some, and assumed it's happening more often. Not a poorly based assumption though, considering the way things have been panning out as of late =P

[Tudana]

Is Ib the only guild doing this?...everyone blames IB all the time, I think Dark Ass is right there as well.

2 guilds have the server raid content on lock down...sad state for P1999

[Gorgetrapper]

I'm like 90% convinced that a lot of two top raiding guilds are 2 boxing, whether it's with everyone's knowledge or not, but I honestly don't think anyone can really sit in a zone for days on end and be there the whole time without tearing at their eyes.

[oldhead]

Im not in a raid yet so I dont have a 1st person view but I hear a lot about this and am interested because it will eventually concern me.

One comment id like to make is that... there isnt much raid content in the 1st expansion.
This would be why two guilds have it locked down. Im surprised it isnt one guild locking down all raid mobs.

Once kunark comes out it will make it harder to lock down all mobs. Also once they have all the loot they will want to move on. It just takes time for the top raid guilds to get their fill of loot and move on to the bigger harder challenges.


That being said.. instead of a rotation which I agree is pretty lame (we had one on our server that was community enforced) make that a guild is not allowed to kill a raid encounter more than twice in a row or something like that.

my servers community enforced raid rotation on classic EQ did work well. During kunark there were two top raiding guilds. They fought and KS'ed, and trained each other. GM's banned but did not get involved. A lot of hate. Kinda where this server is headed.

A third guild came up and got involved... it just got ridiculous at that point. I think the third guild opened their eyes that the hate wouldnt solve the problem. mob rushing wouldnt solve the problem,. Thats when they began the rotation.

To resolve it the three guilds they hashed it out and came up with an gauntlet you had to pass before being allowed into the rotation. You had to kill three mobs in a row on the first attempt. Think it was Nag vox... and someone else. You contact them they let your guild know when the spawns are up for your attempts.

I remember all of this because it was three guilds on the rotation for the longest time. My guild was the 4th member. Shortly after that there was a 5th and by velious there was a 6th.

It would have been chaos and hate on that sever without that player made rotation. some helpful chap kept a scheduled online where you could keep track of who killed what and when it was your guilds turn.

Only major problem there ever was, was when some dipshit guild felt they didnt have to be in the rotation as it was player enforced. With the six top guilds on the server and the majority of the server behind this they would always either conform or break under the pressure.

[oldhead]

I'm like 90% convinced that a lot of two top raiding guilds are 2 boxing, whether it's with everyone's knowledge or not, but I honestly don't think anyone can really sit in a zone for days on end and be there the whole time without tearing at their eyes.

You have multiple people do it.

We used to do that for the cleric epic.

I remember hating doing my 4 hour shift.

Guildies would stop by and help you pass the time by goofing off and chating tho.

You kinda got put in the spotlight when it was your turn to help. Was cool in that way.

[Branaddar]

Back in Velious days, my guild used to do weekend-long raids on Halls of Testing. People would just sub in and out for sleep as need be.

If we could manage to kill things for 48 hours, I could see being able to wait for a mob for a while no problem.

As others have said, once Kunark (and eventually, Velious) are released, we won't be seeing quite as much of this. There will still be the obvious camping of epic mobs, but there will be raid content available to other guilds as well.

I do think something needs to change, though, or we will be seeing one guild monopolizing the cleric epics for weeks on end.

[kariden]

If you play on other servers where boxing is allowed and where MQ2 is allowed then watch people here its not hard to spot whos doing what.

[eqholmes]

On my server (luclin) I was a cleric and what we decided to do as a server was make a cleric epic wait list. If I remember right after naggy was down it was a 4-7 day window for the mob to pop. First the cleric had to post evidence that they were on the step ready to kill the dragon. (Posting a SS of your pearl with a timestamp and such) I was in the top guild and at any point we could have been dicks and took it, but I waited in line 3 months for my turn. Why can’t we do this for such things as the cleric epic mob?

PS. The cleric that was up had to sit at the camp 24hours until it popped. This is a fair and easy way to handle this matter and shouldn’t be an issue…

Editing this part..... On a side note when epics are released we must get rid of mob varience, this is going to be an issue with things like NAGGY and such that could spawn in the window when you want to kill the cleric epic guy. I would be so pissed to wait 5 days at the spawn to have naggy pop on me 2 days earlier than he should and then I would have to wait another week camping 24 hours a day.

[Branaddar]

Mob variance (normally) prevents guilds from monopolizing a spawn. Though with the rules in place, it is somewhat pointless, as a guild is just going to sit there with 15 people waiting anyway.

[eqholmes]

Oh I fully agree branaddar, but I'm saying that its going to cause some nasty issues when epics are out. The variance could cause someone camping the cleric epic weeks of their time on this one spawn when naggy keeps spawning early in the variance and the cleric epic guy spawns late. See the point I'm trying to make clear? Maybe just take off the variance on a few mobs that this involes? Since its not like every god/dragon is the key to a spawn for the epic.

edit* man I suck at spelling

[Skope]

Taking off variance on the few mobs that it involves only presents that same mob with the issues of having variance off : Too "Oneguildmensional" , still doesn't resolve the camping/lockdown issue (only exacerbates it if you think about it), and can cause even more problems between guilds. I would agree with you, though, if it were in rotation. Thus when it dies you let the other guild know and therefore nobody would waste their time, essentially just get in, grab it and get out.

[guineapig]

Well Epic quests are still a long ways away, like 7-9 months into Kunark. So if we theorize that Kunark will be released around October then this issue is still a LONG way off the radar.

That being said, I agree that raiding on P99 has gotten pretty unhealthy.

[Phallax]

Rotations could work on normal servers where theres only 2-3 maybe 4 raiding guilds. As it is now theres really only 4 raiding guilds 2 of which stand out the most. By the time Velious rolls around will see alot more raiding guilds as people are going to max out all their grouping gear and seek to enjoy the raiding aspect of the game, and with a growing community it makes it even more viable to see more raiders.

Say a few months after Velious is released we now have 6-7 raiding guilds able of NTOV, can you imagine a rotation between 6-7 guilds? I know I wouldnt want to wait no 6-7 weeks just to go clear out some dragons in NToV or 6-7 weeks for my shot at Tunare.

I do agree there should be a better system. Hopefully we can keep a low number of guilds able to raid so a rotation could be implemented but Im not seeing its possible.

[eqholmes]

True that Skope, how long into kunark did they make it were if you were above 52 naggy/vox would just spit you out of the zone? Was it not till VOS came about or about the end of kunark? Man my memory blows! At that point the lockdown of the top guilds on those camps wouldn’t matter since they most likely wouldn’t all have characters sitting around being level 50ish to just kill those mobs. (Even though I leveled 2 characters to 50 so far just so that I can leave one at that level to kill them  ) rather funny when your 60 cleric is camping there and when naggy spawns and kicks you to zone hehe

[Jify]

I'm like 90% convinced that a lot of two top raiding guilds are 2 boxing, whether it's with everyone's knowledge or not, but I honestly don't think anyone can really sit in a zone for days on end and be there the whole time without tearing at their eyes.

Lol.

Yup, we all two box. Every single one of us. Because the GMs would never think of checking for that, we are all just that sneaky!

Right.

The truth is, we /petition and report two boxers just like the rest of you. We are normal people and we follow rules, likely with more precision then the common player because we are constantly attacked when anything goes bad. Sure some of us have more time than the average player, more experience, more connections, etc. But we aren't all super hackers or "basement nerds without a life". The "blame the top guilds" routine is getting old, all we do is play to the best of our ability, within the rule sets given to us.

Leave us alone. :(

[Reiker]

It's funny reading this shit from people just starting here.

Back in Nov-Oct one guild was dominating all the raid content. Another guild who wasn't able to mobilize fast enough upon spawns started complaining and eventually just started camping mobs for hours at a time. First guild was like "fuck that" and decided to just kill shit regardless of another guild camping for 18 hours. GMs were like "lol no" and enforced a rotation on this server. The raid rotation is probably the #1 gayest thing to ever happen to P99, I heard Liberace even rolled up a toon. So GMs finally remove the rotation rules, camping occurs again, more bitching, etc.

Really funny to watch the cycle, at least.

[rioisk]

Allow FFA only fair solution. Train other guilds. Try to OUT-DPS them. Pull before them. Might be a shit show but will get rid of this carebear "i'm going to camp here for hours because I'm guaranteed to get phat lewt this way"

[Imsetta]

I do not believe that we will ever see a fix to this problem. We have to remember that when we all played EverQuest so many years ago, everything was new and most people did not know what armor came from where. Because of the knowledge of items and spawn times of EVERTHING in the game, this causes a problem that leads to all "Uber" loot being camped. The only time that guilds will stop camping a raid mob is when a new expansion comes out with items that will take the place of the items that they have been getting from the first raid mob.

If there is any type of rotation put in place by server guides or devs, the population will have a problem with it. The problem is simply from greed. EVERYPERSON that plays wants to get the best items in the game. Greed feeds this fire, and WE are all greedy.

A Rotation or a raid list put in place by all guilds on the server would be the only way possible to be civil about this. Problems with that Is that every raiding guild wants the raid bosses. Most guilds would rather sit and camp the mobs simply for the fact that they know because they have high numbers of people and they have time that they can spend. This gives them an advantage. Why would these guilds want to join a rotation/list to kill a mob when they can keep people on all the time just so they can take the mob everytime it spawns? What sounds best to you? Wait weeks on a list for your turn to kill? or just have your guild wait at the spawn point and kill the mob when it spawn next?

I will leave this at this point for now. Im not trying to be the nay sayer or put anybody down. I just look at this from a point of view that few may see.

Lanys T`Vyl

[rioisk]

Exactly Imsetta. The current rules reward people for sitting for hours. If you remove the rules then guilds could compete through indirect pvp ie training/causing havoc/trying to outdps. I don't see the logic behind reward people for being online 24/7 and being on "raid-call".

[Imsetta]

This server is not a pvp server. We would like to see everyone be noble and do the right thing.

Im sorry but I would hate to see a server where people will train others to get what they want. That would make Chaos and most of the server population would be destroyed. Leaving us with people that have no real morals. (sorry if I offend anyone, but I hate to see people train other people just so they can get something)

Lanys T`Vyl

[rioisk]

The problem with the noble and right thing is that it tends to reward those who play 24 hours a day and have no job.

[rioisk]

You also assume that in the absence of rules then people will be overly greed and ALWAYS train/cause problems for other guilds. However, I think in the short run this problem will exist but in the long run guilds will collude to insure their own best interests. It's a Nash Equilibrium.

[Skope]

The problem with the noble and right thing is that it tends to reward those who play 24 hours a day and have no job.

I think the point the OP was making is that the system right now is doing exactly that. Which is quite fine, people that put in the most amount of time should be rewarded with the most loot, but it's also burdensome on the server population and their own guildies as well. I'm slowly watching my friends' list getting shorter and shorter as people are getting burned out.

[Gwence]

If there is any type of rotation put in place by server guides or devs, the population will have a problem with it. The problem is simply from greed. EVERYPERSON that plays wants to get the best items in the game. Greed feeds this fire, and WE are all greedy.


I would use the word competition instead of greed I think, I want every raid mob every week because I like to compete, not because I am out for all the loots.

While I am all for FFA, the truth is it wont change much, people are still going to complain when IB continues to get 80+% of the raid bosses every week.

This isnt a raiding game right now, if you're fortunate enough to be in a raiding guild and have access to a raid mob here and there good for you, but this game was never about raiding until Velious came out really.

There are 6 mobs worthy of raiding, 7 if you count phinny. That is not alot of cheese to go around.

[Reiker]

Those who are the best want to be rewarded for being the best. Many people will argue what makes them the "best" but when it comes to raiding guilds it mostly revolves around how quickly you can detect that something worth killing has spawned and how quickly you can get enough of your guys there to kill it before competition does. Other things are involved such as how better your gear is, how much "skill" you have at the game, etc.

Those are not the best want everyone to be rewarded equally.

These two philosophies can never live in harmony which means no one will ever be happy. It can only revolve between group A being happy for some amount of time or group B being happy the other. The less rules that are in place, the better off group A is. More rules (rotation, enforced PnP etc) favor group B.

TLDR: Can't please everyone, so might as well not waste your (the GM's) time enforcing anything.

[Cribanox]

Im no raiding player but I cant see how peopel think it can be good for the same peopel to get better and better because they have the ability to monopolize the game. And trust me, just because they have the loot doesnt mean they wont go out of their way to make sure YOU dont get the loot.
anyway, point being I of dont think its good for one group of people to get everything because they have 24/7 to play.

Me on the other hand, Im fine with working my way up slowly to get the best "non raid" obtainable gear.

[Reiker]

Everyone's always gonna be biased (not just EQ but everything outside of it). If you were on a team of the world's greatest olympic weightlifters, and you could totally get away with blowing up your rising competition's gym, you would.

[Imsetta]

People that are getting burnt out because they play 24-7 to get raid bosses probably should take a break.

Everyone needs to remember that we make up our own mind. If you want to join a guild and play 24-7 to get boss mobs, then by all means do what you want. Yes I see the side that some people want to be casual players and get the chance to raid also, and I would encourage bigger guild to invite the casual player and let them join them on raids. The biggest problem with guilds that have casual players is that you (as a casual player) will most likely not be able to have a chance to get the loot from boss mobs tell the time that all others of your class that are none casual have received the items. Seems unfair, but looking at the idea that people that play the most are the best equipped players makes sense. If you are casual you need to see that the fun is the kill and not the loot. For the non casual player the trill is in the loot.

I'm I getting off subject yet =P, just trying to be more social.

Lanys T`Vyl

[Cribanox]

Telling casual players to fidn fun in the kill is silly.

I know being a casual player is looked down upon in EQ-world, but not all of us can say "ok you know what? Im going to play hardcore now, screw this casual crap, I need loot!"..
Most of us who are casual -have- to play casual.

I understand that most people who play 24/7 feel the entitlement to get all the loot, and as long as the rules say they can use their time as an advantage over the rest of us, they will. And they will rub it in our faces all day long.

I believe, sure, they should get the loot, they spend the time to , so they deserve it.. BUT, I think its REALLY unfair that they use their time to keep the rest of us down. I don't think it's fair that they camp raid mobs just so we cant.

[Imsetta]

Im not fighting what your saying cribanox, I have been a casual player on every MMORPG I have played and I have always thought that if I help kill a mob I should be in on the loot.

But back on the rotation and stuff. I still think best bet is to have guilds talk to each other. Yes I think it would be respectable that if your guild kills a raid mob once you will pull off that mob and let some other guild get the next spawn. After that its fair game for the first guild again. Still would have competition between guilds, but there would always be a chance.

Example:
Guild 1, 2, 3 and 4 have been after said raid mob.

Guild one camped it and got the first kill. Now guild 1 would pull away from the mob leaving the next spawn for guild 2, 3, or 4. after next kill they could come back. Yes this could create a 2 guild rule over the mob. But its still better then 4 guilds fighting over one mob it turns it down to 3 guilds fighting =P

Lanys T`Vyl

[Evorix]

I don't think it's fair that they camp raid mobs just so we cant.

This is NOT the reasoning behind camping mobs. There is no intention on killing mobs just so you can't. Every guild/group on this server has the same chance as any other upon killing a named spawn. There is just people who pursue this chance and get 15 people to camp a mob before someone else. You and anyone else can do the same. It is not like everyone lives at their computer and are present 24/7, but having enough to pass a roll call when something spawns is what you need.

[Teeny]

I do not believe that we will ever see a fix to this problem. We have to remember that when we all played EverQuest so many years ago, everything was new and most people did not know what armor came from where. Because of the knowledge of items and spawn times of EVERTHING in the game, this causes a problem that leads to all "Uber" loot being camped. The only time that guilds will stop camping a raid mob is when a new expansion comes out with items that will take the place of the items that they have been getting from the first raid mob.

If there is any type of rotation put in place by server guides or devs, the population will have a problem with it. The problem is simply from greed. EVERYPERSON that plays wants to get the best items in the game. Greed feeds this fire, and WE are all greedy.

A Rotation or a raid list put in place by all guilds on the server would be the only way possible to be civil about this. Problems with that Is that every raiding guild wants the raid bosses. Most guilds would rather sit and camp the mobs simply for the fact that they know because they have high numbers of people and they have time that they can spend. This gives them an advantage. Why would these guilds want to join a rotation/list to kill a mob when they can keep people on all the time just so they can take the mob everytime it spawns? What sounds best to you? Wait weeks on a list for your turn to kill? or just have your guild wait at the spawn point and kill the mob when it spawn next?

I will leave this at this point for now. Im not trying to be the nay sayer or put anybody down. I just look at this from a point of view that few may see.

Lanys T`Vyl

Don't be civil about it, if you want to get kills, get organized, be better than the other guild. Out organize them, out play them. This is a prime example in this thread in my opinion is why new MMO's have issues. EVERYONE WANTS IT HANDED TO THEM. Why don't you guys form a massive merger of people who want to get kills, and get it done? IB and Dark As arent the only two guilds capable of doing this. If they put in the time camping it, they deserve it in my opinion, if you don't like it, camp it yourself?

Its just like in real life, when you want something, you don't go up to a millionaire and say "its not fair, you got more than I do" then go whine to the government aka server admins "hey they got more than we do, take some from them and give it to me".

May not be the popular way to look at it, as I'm not raiding yet, but I welcome the challenge to be in a guild that can take spawns away from bigger guilds.

[rioisk]

ts just like in real life, when you want something, you don't go up to a millionaire and say "its not fair, you got more than I do" then go whine to the government aka server admins "hey they got more than we do, take some from them and give it to me".

Millionaires didn't become millionaires by sitting around waiting for spawns in a free mmorpg. That's not skill. That doesn't show you are the best. It doesn't show anything except you play 24/7. We need to move away from this idea that the "best" equates to getting the most raid mobs. That only shows you have the time to play.

That being said, the current rules REWARD TIME. I think this is a sad, one dimensional way to look at raiding especially in a non-instanced game. What is the point in having a non-instanced environment if in all reality people are just WAITING for a spawn to be rewarded with gear. Considering the raid encounters now are basically no-fail if you have enough people/proper classes then the game is basically a food stamp line where those who wait in line the longest get the most stamps. I wouldn't call those people the best, just playing by the "rules" by dedicating a huge chunk of their time to the game.

I think this is what needs to change.

[NotInventedHere]

Most millionaires become millionaires from accident of birth.

[Thac0]

Millionaires didn't become millionaires by sitting around waiting for spawns in a free mmorpg.Im pretty sure thats exactly what happens when you wait for someone to die so you can inherit their stuff.:p

[rioisk]

sounds noble

[neem]

BOXING FTW!!

yep

I'd bet there is a large number of people boxing on this server. GM's say you get punished if you're caught but i'm sure they haven't caught many of them.

[Leokaiser]

I have no intention of raiding on this server (and am glad I didn't come here with the intention of doing so before discovering what the raiding situation was like), so hopefully my opinion on the matter will be regarded as neutral.

First, it is wrong to suggest that everyone who plays is greedy, out only for the best loot, or comptative in any way. I'm sure a significant number of the players here didn't raid in Classic (prior to Velious at least) yet still enjoyed playing EverQuest, and I'm sure many of those players are able to have an enjoyable time playing here without the promise of the phat loot they didn't get back in the day. I am one of those players.

Would I like to see Vox and Naggy? As said, I have no intentions of becomeing a raider, but yes, I would like to see the end-game content. I'm certain that, with the right attitude, when the time comes, I'll be able to tag along to one guild or another kill and be happy, regardless of whether I'm eligable to roll on loot or not. I'd just like to quash a generalisation made earlier in this thread.

To me, the whole eternal camping thing is somewhat unhealthy. Far be it from me to tell others how to spend their time (as I've spent an 'unhealthy' amount of time raiding in other games myself), but I do have to wonder how much fun it actually is. I understand the thrill of finally getting that much sought after piece of equipment, but it seems that thrill comes at a tremendous price here. Being the 'best' is hardly worth much if you are having no fun getting to and/or maintaining that status. Perhaps a large portion of the raiding community will disagree with me here, but noting the comments made regarding people burning out leads me to believe there is a kernel of truth in this.

I also have to disagree with the assumption that most casual players (or even the less dedicated guilds) want to have the same chance to get to see content or loot the best items as those who can dedicate a much larger portion of their time to the game. Rather, I would suggest that many of those people simply want a chance. You might say that anyone has a chance if they are good enough at mobilising and organising, but that is simply ignoring the time constraints placed on this type of player and the manner which mobs are claimed under the current rules. However, the previously discussed rotation system probably wouldn't make allowances for this type of player anyway, so without the top guilds being generous and simply letting other people have a go, I don't know what to suggest to ensure that casuals get a fighting chance.

The point about the players ever being far more savvy about the content than they were 10 years ago and thus being having the knowledge which allows them to shoot for the best items/camps is almost certainly correct. I imagine because of this, this server will see a higher number of people who want to raid than did back in the day, especially consider that this server is most appealing to those who were fanatical about the Classic EQ experience which, over time, became highly focused on raiding.

The amount of raid content won't change in proportion to the number of raiders though. If there is no room at the top for all the players who want to be there, I would guess many will simply move on (assuming burnout rate isn't high enough that room is perpetually created for new blood to move in, but even then it means players are leaving the server). If you are at the top, you might not care about this, as it's less competition for you, but to me that's a bit of a sad situation.

At the risk of being branded a heretic, allow me to ask a question I haven't seen posed before: If the raiding player base continues to grow which the amount of content remains static, might it not be a good idea to increase spawn timers on the set number of raid mobs that exist? Yes, yes, I know; 'it's not Classic!'. But, the way things appear to be going (from my addmittedly rather uninformed perspective), it might be for the good of the server.

I also have to ask: Is your quest to be the best so important that you are willing to deprive others the experience of having fun? I hearing talk about 'competition' more and more, but this isn't an e-sport; it's supposed to be just a game. This isn't intended to flame or provoke, but being nice and considering how your actions affect others usually brings its own rewards.

Just my 2pp.

tl;dr?

You probably wouldn't care what I have to say anyway :)

(lol at the suggestion a group of sporting professionals would resort to bombing to cripple the competion by-the-by. If you have to take the competition out, it would suggest you aren't the best at all!)

[Skope]

ts just like in real life, when you want something, you don't go up to a millionaire and say "its not fair, you got more than I do" then go whine to the government aka server admins "hey they got more than we do, take some from them and give it to me".

Millionaires didn't become millionaires by sitting around waiting for spawns in a free mmorpg. That's not skill. That doesn't show you are the best. It doesn't show anything except you play 24/7. We need to move away from this idea that the "best" equates to getting the most raid mobs. That only shows you have the time to play.

That being said, the current rules REWARD TIME. I think this is a sad, one dimensional way to look at raiding especially in a non-instanced game. What is the point in having a non-instanced environment if in all reality people are just WAITING for a spawn to be rewarded with gear. Considering the raid encounters now are basically no-fail if you have enough people/proper classes then the game is basically a food stamp line where those who wait in line the longest get the most stamps. I wouldn't call those people the best, just playing by the "rules" by dedicating a huge chunk of their time to the game.

I think this is what needs to change.

Classic was very much like this though, and EQ was, in general, until velious-era. It was just a matter of bringing enough people to clear and kill the mobs. PoSky was probably the only one that differed in that aspect because it actually required a 2-day raid to even get into the position to kill what you wanted (if you were smart about it you only had to do that once though). EQ was easy in its early stages has always been. Even during kunark i recall being a part of those 50+ swarm raids on CT that never went awry.

Tactics really start to show themselves when a raid force is underpowered in numbers. That's when it requires everyone participating to be more finely-tuned in their approach.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I never saw real end-game content until two expansions later in Live when the guilds that had the drive and the numbers and the ability to mobilize whenever for whatever had moved on from that content. I know other casual players here were in the same boat. Why should we expect this server to be any different?

You know whether you're a casual player or not. After ten years, if you haven't learned that the hardcore players will beat you out on the endgame content because they have the advantage of time over you, you're just being obstinate. :)

[rioisk]

No dispute that time advantage = win in most cases. I'm suggesting other guilds should have a chance to mitigate the time advantage by using other methods without rules preventing them. For example, IB may camp 24 hrs straight for a mob....but another guild could waltz in when it spawns and train them and cause them to wipe and have their force ready to kill the mob while IB rezzes. It would mitigate the time-commitment incentive and make it so that time isn't the only dimension of success.

[rioisk]

This would allow for player-made dimensions with its own politics/agreements/backstabbing/etc. Might cause drama but it would be the player's world.

[mitic]

Camping Raid Mobs etc... gone on long enough ? isnt it about time guilds/gms come to some sort of agreement ? this is pretty crazy the state of the raid game on the server,normal players should have at least a chance of reliving the classic raid experience on this server, this server is great but for the majority the way it stands now they will never get a chance at the most fun encounters in the game cause of the current raid rules this could be the downfall on this server unfortunately... so your thoughts on this please ? keep it clean! ffs

randomer
Junior Member

Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 1

[Teeny]

ts just like in real life, when you want something, you don't go up to a millionaire and say "its not fair, you got more than I do" then go whine to the government aka server admins "hey they got more than we do, take some from them and give it to me".

Millionaires didn't become millionaires by sitting around waiting for spawns in a free mmorpg. That's not skill. That doesn't show you are the best. It doesn't show anything except you play 24/7. We need to move away from this idea that the "best" equates to getting the most raid mobs. That only shows you have the time to play.

That being said, the current rules REWARD TIME. I think this is a sad, one dimensional way to look at raiding especially in a non-instanced game. What is the point in having a non-instanced environment if in all reality people are just WAITING for a spawn to be rewarded with gear. Considering the raid encounters now are basically no-fail if you have enough people/proper classes then the game is basically a food stamp line where those who wait in line the longest get the most stamps. I wouldn't call those people the best, just playing by the "rules" by dedicating a huge chunk of their time to the game.

I think this is what needs to change.

And obviously, the millionaire who has the money, did something to earn it most of the time. Just as they waited it out aka did something to get their loot. If I put more time/effort into something than you do, I SHOULD get the pay off. You're right, the people who get the kills have the time to throw at this game, and when you put it that way it sounds like the usual QQ casuals throw around, being that they want all the stuff that the people who put a lot of the time into the game have with less work. If you want gear, and you want to get gear, get organized, get people who play all the time in your guild so that you don't have to have someone sit and camp it for days.

I guess my point is, take it from them, don't expect them to hand it to you, because they won't. If you can't take it from them, then you don't necessarily deserve to have it. One of the best guilds in EQ until PoP was a small guild named Fires of Heaven, they used very small numbers and were very effective against raid mobs. Skill doesn't always equal gear, but time invested in a game will always trump skill. An average player who plays too much will have better gear than a great player who just plays every so often. More chances at item drops, more time trading in EC, more time for finding better groups like Efreeti and such.

I'm sorry you don't have the time ;).

[mitic]

by the release of kunark i will laugh at them current campers (or another guild using batphone) who wasted their time camping/scouting bosses 24/7 in CLASSIC.

if they want this uber worthless shit in CLASSIC so badly then ffs let them

[nalkin]

Being in one of the top raiding guilds on the server I would like to throw in my 2 cents.

The current raiding set-up is not about skill its about time. While that is a form of competition its not one I would enjoy partaking in. I have no desire to sit for days in a zone waiting for something to pop. Which is unfortunate because I would really like to do end game content for the fun of it. I would like to see the rules be FFA, because that would be true competition. Then you wouldn't even need GM intervention as it would be, whoever loots the target, gets loot. The problem with it not being FFA is that you need rules and you need a way to enforce those rules. So GMs have to babysit all these raids which is slightly ridiculous.

On top of that, all that rules do is give the players a set of parameters to try to push to the limits and find loopholes around. The more loopholes players come up with, the more rules there will be. Soon it will have to be like a 100 page document with a bunch of clauses. Each guild will have to essentially have a lawyer cause no player is going to want to keep up with all the rules, but each guild will want to be able to tattle and point their finger at another guild the instance they break a rule so that they can get the target. It is stupid. Main problem is, kimmie nor myself are lawyers so we will have to get another player in our guild and then ima have to change the guildname, and no one wants that.

[Evorix]

by the release of kunark i will laugh at them current campers (or another guild using batphone) who wasted their time camping/scouting bosses 24/7 in CLASSIC.

if they want this uber worthless shit in CLASSIC so badly then ffs let them

Its not even about the gear. Its about killing the hardest content available. You could say that about every expansion. "I'm not gonna farm shit in classic bc ill get kunark gear. I'm not gonna farm shit in kunark bc ill get velious gear and so on..."

[oldhead]

even with kunark there will be competition for classic bosses.

[rioisk]

the hardest content available lol, what's hard in this game now? the hours of camping on unemployment?

[Evorix]

the hardest content available lol, what's hard in this game now? the hours of camping on unemployment?

in relative terms.. no need to troll. dragons,gods,maestro,draco are currently the hardest mobs

[rioisk]

I know what mobs are "hardest" but they're still pie. The harder part is the willpower to spend that much time just to guarantee the kill for your guild. It's just a ridiculous system. They could increase spawn timers, simulate patch days, force rotations, a combination of all of this. The current system is a little ridiculous.

Cry "not classic" for decrease spawn timers but it isn't classic that we don't have patch days and all-pop. The player population isn't the same compilation either and it's only going to become increasingly concentrated on the high end.

[Taxi]

The problem here is the boxing. The camping rules favor those who box but "dont box" officially. My roomate is my bro here and we got a router and i got an extra box sitting around for backups doing nothing. I could just ask for an exemption and theres no way you could tell that it was me manning the 2 computers. I could even get my bro to move the other comp at the same time once in a while so it appears legit.

To me the problem is 2 boxing. Remove IP exemptions and i would bet 50 bucks that all this camping will go down drastically. Try it for a week and see what happens. Maybe people will stick to their highest camping toon just to keep face for a week, but extend it for a month and see. Or try to see which people who have exemptions are camping mobs for 8-20hours.

I would say either remove exemptions, or remove the first come first served camping rules. Its not realistic to remove exemptions because im sure theres a couple of real hubby/wife/bros out there, so camps should be FFA. I mean really... why stop with those camping rules, create multiple instances of Nagafen's lair.

[Aadill]

I know what mobs are "hardest" but they're still pie. The harder part is the willpower to spend that much time just to guarantee the kill for your guild. It's just a ridiculous system. They could increase spawn timers, simulate patch days, force rotations, a combination of all of this. The current system is a little ridiculous.

Cry "not classic" for decrease spawn timers but it isn't classic that we don't have patch days and all-pop. The player population isn't the same compilation either and it's only going to become increasingly concentrated on the high end.

Who are you? Are you involved in the killing of these mobs?

What about a competitive rotation system? You want a mob, fine. When it pops, you kill it quick or there goes your chance. Giving people mobs is more ridiculous than making people camp. In camping for zone pops you have to get everyone ready and not screw up on the first try.

Once you guarantee rights to mobs or trivialize the value of loot you are doing way more damage than making the hardcore raiders camp

[Jify]

Nalkin is a wise gnome.

[apio]

Back when i played classic, Vox and Naggy were exclusively pick up raids. The community wasn't as pro as it is nowadays. It's kind of sad, because part of "classic" for me was joining those Naggy/Vox pickup raids, where everyone actually had a chance of rolling on items and winning something. Groups of 50 people wiping 3 times clearing to Vox and then wiping another 3 times on Vox herself before she went down. This will never happen on this server.

It wasn't until the end of the Kunark Era / Beginning of the Velious area when the whole thing progressed to a more professional level. There was competition, but usually it wasn't competition on the server itself but rather on Serverwide Firsts, Guilds competing versus other guilds for the top tier challenges, usually there wasn't even more than 2 guilds capable of doing this kinda stuff. The others didnt have the time OR the skill to compete.

Its sad in a way, but the playerbase on P99 is just too "professional" for the current content. It will never be the way it once was - that's just something we are gonna have to live with.

All i can say is, look at the items that are being "perma camped" right now. Besides CoF and RBB there's nothing really game changing when it comes to "High Tier" Loot. It will all be worthless once Kunark comes out. So by all means keep the content locked down, waste your time and get burnt out in the process.

I for one know the whole thing right now doesn't yield the kind of reward that justifies it (for me personally) to spend this huge amount of time camping stuff. Im just trying to have a good time.

[Aadill]

usually there wasn't even more than 2 guilds capable of doing this kinda stuff. The others didnt have the time OR the skill to compete.

As it stands, 3-5 guilds have the necessary people and skills willing to kill raid mobs

As it stands, 2 of those guilds have the time to kill the raid mobs.

Sounds just about right.

[Pyrocat]

y it for a week and see what happens. Maybe people will stick to their highest camping toon just to keep face for a week, but extend it for a month and see. Or try to see which people who have exemptions are camping mobs for 8-20hours.

Let me let you in on a little secret. People AFK camp raid mobs. They go and watch movies, socialize, play other games, and generally not play Everquest while they camp raid mobs. They aren't 2boxing and sitting with another computer selling shit in EC or leveling alts, at least, no one from my guild is that I'm aware of. The trick is being able to get back to your computer as soon as the mob spawns so you can respond to a roll call or buff up and kill the mob before the timer is up and the competition moves in.

[Branaddar]

Yeah, remove IP exemptions to potentially have a few less people camping raid mobs but making all the husband/wife, brother/sister, etc players quit.

Sounds good!

[Taxi]

Let me let you in on a little secret. People AFK camp raid mobs. They go and watch movies, socialize, play other games, and generally not play Everquest while they camp raid mobs. They aren't 2boxing and sitting with another computer selling shit in EC or leveling alts, at least, no one from my guild is that I'm aware of. The trick is being able to get back to your computer as soon as the mob spawns so you can respond to a roll call or buff up and kill the mob before the timer is up and the competition moves in.

That still leaves the part where a guild with alot of people can put the best mobs on perma-lockdown. With the numbers of players on the server going up, i dont think the problem is going away.

I would still be curious to know the percentage of people doing raid camps with IP exemptions.

[nicemace]

i think you will find there is a lot less boxers than you believe.

when i camp, i just play poker.

i generally play poker for anywhere between 8 and 16 hours a day anyway, so I just camp on the side :D

gota earn a living somehow.

[smokiing]

normal players should have at least a chance of reliving the classic raid experience on this server


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You better think twice about that.

What happens on this server is you reach level 50 and then you quit.

"a chance" hahahahahhahahahahahahahah roflmao lol

[Taluvill]

What many of you fail to realize, is that this is exactly like one guild monopolizing the content in live.

Did anyone get a shot at anything on veeshan with FoH in the mix? No. People just went and played the waiting game until FoH was ready to tackle the next expansion.

The sad truth of the reality is that if a rotation cannot be established, you will be stuck an expansion behind, or fighting for mobs with kunark in the fold and LOTS of mobs to tackle. Velious, just take the zone(prolly the dwarves) that the big guilds end up not taking.

[Taluvill]

Let me let you in on a little secret. People AFK camp raid mobs. They go and watch movies, socialize, play other games, and generally not play Everquest while they camp raid mobs. They aren't 2boxing and sitting with another computer selling shit in EC or leveling alts, at least, no one from my guild is that I'm aware of. The trick is being able to get back to your computer as soon as the mob spawns so you can respond to a roll call or buff up and kill the mob before the timer is up and the competition moves in.

Exactly. That nail on the head thing, Pyro hit it.

You get very, very good at playing starcraft 2 beta, or single player diablo. League of Legends is fun... Lots of cool single player games to play.

In the last month i've been hammering at d2 single player and Civ 4. Fun stuff.

[Loke]

Umm, we don't box. Our entire guild just happens to be roommates!

Seriously though - I just do homework or something while we camp mobs. I can do whatever as long as I'm back at my computer within a few minutes. It's not like I'm actively at my PC basking in the beautiful scenery that is PoFear.

The only people here that I think can bitch about camping are IB or DA, since we're the only ones it really affects. Even if camping wasn't occuring, IB or DA would still get 95% of the mobs - so then non-IB/DA people would just bitch about whatever tactic was being used then. Basically if you're not in IB or DA, you're not getting mobs, camping or no camping. You're basically all cranky because you're not willing to put in the effort that we are and want to be rewarded anyway.

[smokiing]

Umm, we don't box. Our entire guild just happens to be roommates!

Seriously though - I just do homework or something while we camp mobs. I can do whatever as long as I'm back at my computer within a few minutes. It's not like I'm actively at my PC basking in the beautiful scenery that is PoFear.

The only people here that I think can bitch about camping are IB or DA, since we're the only ones it really affects. Even if camping wasn't occuring, IB or DA would still get 95% of the mobs - so then non-IB/DA people would just bitch about whatever tactic was being used then. Basically if you're not in IB or DA, you're not getting mobs, camping or no camping. You're basically all cranky because you're not willing to put in the effort that we are and want to be rewarded anyway.

I love how you lvl 50s actually think youre doing any efforts.

You admit to having nothing else worthwhile to use your time on then sitting afk camping a raid boss. With only 4 bosses with 3-7 days respawn, I understand why people sink this low.

Sadly that has nothing to do with your efforts, its just exteremly poor game design, forcing people to ruin the game for everyone else.

Why do people even play a game where you have to sit afk for hours and do homework instead?

[Loke]

I love how you lvl 50s actually think youre doing any efforts.

You admit to having nothing else worthwhile to use your time on then sitting afk camping a raid boss. With only 4 bosses with 3-7 days respawn, I understand why people sink this low.

Sadly that has nothing to do with your efforts, its just exteremly poor game design, forcing people to ruin the game for everyone else.

Why do people even play a game where you have to sit afk for hours and do homework instead?

1) We are exerting effort. Regardless of how you feel about it, it does take a certain degree of effort to track, camp, and kill the mobs on this server. It is an effort that we in IB and DA are willing to exert, and the rest of the server is not. It doesn't take any large amount of skill or intelligence, but it IS an effort.

2) I love how random people like you make these wild assumptions about people you don't know. You make it sound like every L50 on this server is some sad pathetic power gamer.

3) you talk about how we are "ruining the game for everyone else" as if it is our duty to ensure that you have a good time on P99. I highly doubt you logged on this morning thinking "man, I'm going to go out of my way to make sure Loke enjoys himself today." Just as my enjoyment isn't your primary concern.. your's isn't mine either.

Basically this thread is just a bunch of people complaining about how they aren't being spoon fed the game, and instead have to compete with players who put in more time and effort. If you want a fair chance at every encounter - go check out instances in WoW.

[G13]

I love how you lvl 50s actually think youre doing any efforts.

You admit to having nothing else worthwhile to use your time on then sitting afk camping a raid boss. With only 4 bosses with 3-7 days respawn, I understand why people sink this low.

Sadly that has nothing to do with your efforts, its just exteremly poor game design, forcing people to ruin the game for everyone else.

Why do people even play a game where you have to sit afk for hours and do homework instead?

End game EQ is not about the mobs. It's not about the loot.

It's a game of chess against guilds. On P99 it just happens to be at an extremely hardcore level. You can whine about guilds "camping mobs" but it's much more than that. It's about strategy, picking your targets, putting pressure on your competition and taking advantage of their mistakes, ect. It's extremely cutthroat here. Definitely not for everyone.

From what I've seen GM decisions haven't really helped. On the contrary, they usually just make the situation worse because of perceived favortism, whether real or imagine, birds start chirping when guides make stupid decisions that effect the outcome of the end game in a major way,

[bullet]

It is an effort that we in IB and DA are willing to exert, and the rest of the server is not. It doesn't take any large amount of skill or intelligence, but it IS an effort.

There's a big difference from trying to make that effort and not being able to.

DA and IB got there first, congrats. Now you either have to join DA/IB or quit the game once you reach 50.

End game EQ is not about the mobs. It's not about the loot.

It's a game of chess against guilds. On P99 it just happens to be at an extremely hardcore level. You can whine about guilds "camping mobs" but it's much more than that. It's about strategy, picking your targets, putting pressure on your competition and taking advantage of their mistakes, ect. It's extremely cutthroat here. Definitely not for everyone.

From what I've seen GM decisions haven't really helped. On the contrary, they usually just make the situation worse because of perceived favortism, whether real or imagine, birds start chirping when guides make stupid decisions that effect the outcome of the end game in a major way,

Strategy? Sit afk until the raid mob spawns?

Picking targets - Write on a piece of paper when mob died and go afk till said raid mob spawns?

Pressure - Recruiting more lvls 50 then other guilds so you can have more people afk?

Advantage of mistakes - Mass spamming petitions to get a game master because you cant figure out who had more people afk?

Theres nothing extremely hardcore about this, there is just not enough content and too many players.

Kinda like 200 kids and only 25 chocolate bars.

[Loke]

There's a big difference from trying to make that effort and not being able to.

DA and IB got there first, congrats. Now you either have to join DA/IB or quit the game once you reach 50.


I don't see where you're going with this post.

First you imply that you're not unable, just unwilling to make the required effort to get mobs here. Then you go on to complain about how IB/DA have the mob market cornered and to get mobs, you need to be a member of one of those guilds. If you're not willing to put in the effot, then you don't deserve to get the mobs. Furthermore, without putting forth the effort, you're not going to become a member of either guild; so it's a moot point.

Given you wanted to get mobs and were willing to put forth the required effort - joining IB/DA is one option, but so is creating a new guild to compete with IB and DA.

So are you complaining about:
-Not being able to put forth the effort
-Not being willing to put forth the effort
-Not being about to join IB/DA for one of the aforementioned reasons
-IB/DA requiring people to put in time/effort to get mobs
-How IB/DA get more applications
-Something else?

Because I really just can't figure out what it is that you are mad about.

[Tseng]

There's a big difference from trying to make that effort and not being able to.

DA and IB got there first, congrats. Now you either have to join DA/IB or quit the game once you reach 50.



Strategy? Sit afk until the raid mob spawns?

Picking targets - Write on a piece of paper when mob died and go afk till said raid mob spawns?

Pressure - Recruiting more lvls 50 then other guilds so you can have more people afk?

Advantage of mistakes - Mass spamming petitions to get a game master because you cant figure out who had more people afk?

Theres nothing extremely hardcore about this, there is just not enough content and too many players.

Kinda like 200 kids and only 25 chocolate bars.

You're just not willing to put in the work bro!

[mitic]

there is a (very) easy solution for the planes:

fill those save spots with roaming mobs! (port in in hate or north wall in fear comes to mind)

so if you want to camp/scout the planes, youll need a small force to hold your camp up there

[nicemace]

There's a big difference from trying to make that effort and not being able to.

DA and IB got there first, congrats. Now you either have to join DA/IB or quit the game once you reach 50.



Strategy? Sit afk until the raid mob spawns?

Picking targets - Write on a piece of paper when mob died and go afk till said raid mob spawns?

Pressure - Recruiting more lvls 50 then other guilds so you can have more people afk?

Advantage of mistakes - Mass spamming petitions to get a game master because you cant figure out who had more people afk?

Theres nothing extremely hardcore about this, there is just not enough content and too many players.

Kinda like 200 kids and only 25 chocolate bars.

if its all so easy, why dosent everyone do it?

why is it only these 2 guilds? we are playing the same game as everyone else, the only difference is we are putting in the effort to at least try get the mobs.

the reason i enjoyed EQ so much is that is wasnt a game that catered to casuals like wow is.

everyone jumped on my case when i tried to push the idea that off peak playing was 'hard' cause of lack of groups etc. everyone said the game is MEANT to be hard, its not a walk in the park.

why would raiding be easy but grouping hard?

there is nothing stopping other guilds from getting raid mobs, they just need to put in the effort to get themselves in line to do so.

and if you are so sure it dosent take any effort to do so, then once again I say... why isnt anyone else doing it then if its so easy.

[bullet]

if its all so easy, why dosent everyone do it?

why is it only these 2 guilds? we are playing the same game as everyone else, the only difference is we are putting in the effort to at least try get the mobs.

the reason i enjoyed EQ so much is that is wasnt a game that catered to casuals like wow is.

everyone jumped on my case when i tried to push the idea that off peak playing was 'hard' cause of lack of groups etc. everyone said the game is MEANT to be hard, its not a walk in the park.

why would raiding be easy but grouping hard?

there is nothing stopping other guilds from getting raid mobs, they just need to put in the effort to get themselves in line to do so.

and if you are so sure it dosent take any effort to do so, then once again I say... why isnt anyone else doing it then if its so easy.

Its only those 2 guilds because they are the only 2 established US raiding guilds and youre already sitting afk fighting over content thats not respawned. Microsoft, McDonalds, Starbuck etc. you dont 'just do it' when competing with these companies.

There is only so many people that is 46+ and wants to put in the afk hours you do, again i should remind you that youre not even playing the game while this is happening.

Its pretty hard to gather a guild with 40-50 lvl 46+ by now, when the only thing you can promise them is to make everyone sit afk even more.

Is this what Everquest is all about in the end?

Having to sit afk before the game is 'hard' and being afk to make a effort?

[nicemace]

Having to sit afk before the game is 'hard' and being afk to make a effort?

if its not hard and requires no effort, then whats stopping anyone else from doing it? nothing that we do is stopping them, its only that they choose not to, for whatever reason i dont know, because it isnt hard, and dosent require effort, so why arent others doing it?

[mitic]

if its not hard and requires no effort, then whats stopping anyone else from doing it? nothing that we do is stopping them, its only that they choose not to, for whatever reason i dont know, because it isnt hard, and dosent require effort, so why arent others doing it?

cause its a waste of time, plain and simple.

if 2 guilds wana compare the lenght of their e-peens by camping/batphoning over boss mobs, then more power to them.

tbh, its planar armor that counts for now. those eye candy boss drops rly aint worth it to WASTE someones lifetime sitting afk for days/weeks/months waiting on spawns

boss drops in kunark for epics is another story. but this expansion has yet to come.

[Shurid]

A Quick solution would be making raid loot drop randomly off all lvl 40+ enemies at a rare drop rate.

Then all the guilds can continue putting in 100's of hours waiting on 1 dragon to spawn while all the people who are here to have fun can pick up tons of phat lewtz.

Case closed.

[Zordana]

A Quick solution would be making raid loot drop randomly off all lvl 40+ enemies at a rare drop rate.

Then all the guilds can continue putting in 100's of hours waiting on 1 dragon to spawn while all the people who are here to have fun can pick up tons of phat lewtz.

Case closed.

the best solution would be instances - but just like all the good solutions, that would not be classic at all which is the main problem on fixing dis here! and we play p99 cause we want classic.. nothing to add..

[mitic]

all this QQ-posts about boss mobs here where the reason why soe started to dumb down the game with instanced content

so everyone bitching about camped boss mobs should ask themselves WHY they are playing on P99.

just think about this for a moment, it wasnt soes fault, it was the playerbase and we are starting to demand something (i.e.: instanced zones) that we didnt want in the first place.

[Taxi]

The problem becomes more apparent if you add regular boss mobs to the mix. The fact is that you can perma-lock a mob if you got the numbers to do so. That shouldnt be. If you carry the camp rules to its logical conclusion, then one huge zerg guild can keep every good boss mob in Kunark on permanent lockdown, just passing the torch to the next guildy thats online. One huge zerg guild can perma-lock the best mobs with this simili-instanced camping rules, but i bet they cant KS every boss mob the same way, because they wouldnt know where the other guilds would put their numbers.

If the camping rules are to make sense, and designed to let everyone get a shot at a mob, then make it that when someone from a guild kills a boss mob, if theres a person in-line for it from another guild/guildless, then the mob cannot be passed to a guildy after its killed. Although this system feels so artificial, its better than what we have right now.

[Bumamgar]

Screw that, instances killed the community and turned EQ into an MORPG instead of an MMORPG.

First in force/First to engage should be the rule, plain and simple.

First in force: If the target is up, the first raid force to arrive in zone and be actively working towards the target gets it.

First to engage: If the target isn't up and multiple raids are sitting around camping the spawn, when the target spawns, the first force to engage the target gets it.

Pretty simple and relatively fair to all involved. Sure, there will be some bickering over what constitutes a 'raid force' but frankly if you have sufficient force you'll be clearing your way in and engaging the boss, which makes it pretty clear who was first in force.

Don't know the history of this server well enough to know what this isn't the rule here, but it worked out pretty well on Live till instancing ruined the game :)

Oh, and yes, some guilds on live chose to ignore first in force and tried to steamroll/leapfrog etc, but usually that didn't go so well for them, because the guild that was there in force usually had no problem engaging the target anyway, or in the case of a leapfrog (ie: running past a guild fighting Aary to attempt to take NToV) it was pretty simple for the GMs to determine what was going on and banish the offending guild from the zone. Sure, GMs didn't always show up in time to deal with it, but the fact that they did sometimes enforce a no-leapfrogging policy was enough to deter it most of the time.

[Micer]

The real problem here has been the gms are too nice, they have been trying to placate 100 grown babies instead of handing out bans and deleting guilds for the intolerable level of bullshit they have been creating for the staff.

[Spirell]

I think the problem will fix itself with the release of kunark and velious.

Right now there is nothing to do when you reach 50, so guilds just can just sit around and wait for the boss mobs to spawn. Once Kunark comes out there is VP key camping, epics, WAY more mobs that drop stuff you want to farm. Right now there is nothing for the "end gamers" to do but sit around and wait for boss mobs.

[mr.miketastic]

I think the problem will fix itself with the release of kunark and velious.

Right now there is nothing to do when you reach 50, so guilds just can just sit around and wait for the boss mobs to spawn. Once Kunark comes out there is VP key camping, epics, WAY more mobs that drop stuff you want to farm. Right now there is nothing for the "end gamers" to do but sit around and wait for boss mobs.

^^^^^^^^

[Skope]

there is a (very) easy solution for the planes:

fill those save spots with roaming mobs! (port in in hate or north wall in fear comes to mind)

so if you want to camp/scout the planes, youll need a small force to hold your camp up there

I think this is the best solution I think I've seen yet. Though it inherently has issues as well, such as that 8 hour spawn timer that would allow you to go afk pretty much 8 hours at a time =P I'd suggest having something like scarelings or toads in fear or ghouls in hate that would roam on much shorter timers, say 15 or 20 minutes, that don't have class/gear specific loot tables (whatever, nobody cares about eyerazzia's anymore, those things rot all the time), that would prevent this sort of mass long-term afking we're seeing now. It will actually require guilds to be "active." Crazy right? Not quite sure how that would work on naggy/vox or if it would be capable at all. But I'd love to hear some GM feedback on this issue. This way the most active guilds will still have a great shot at loot instead of those that are attempting to stretch the rules in their favor.

Just as a side note, I don't think anybody WANTS to leave their PCs on for 3-4 days and not play EQ because they want a shot at loot, I think there's probably a better way to sort all of this out. I have, or had, friends in both guilds that were quite active but were simply burned out or turned away because of the current raiding situation. They've simply been replaced. It seems as if the guilds now have to filter out the inactives and have a steady supply of incoming 50s (or 40s) to replace them to keep this trend going. It's become somewhat of a raiding assembly line, where players are tagged and thrown into perma/solb or hate/fear to sit and camp there. As soon as they've had enough they quit and are replaced by the one behind them.

Kunark will also smooth these things out. Players won't want to be part of 60 man raids because they'll never-ever see their epics. Furthermore, kunark involved a bit more organization that is very hard to maintain with that many people. You needed keys, resist gear (resist now is somewhat of a joke even being broken, let's be honest), etc. Trying to key 200 people so you can have a shot at a mob will be living hell, whereas doing it for an active and dedicated 50 is far easier.

[Imsetta]

Here is the question I would like answered. I believe that guilds are camping the end game raid mobs for the items they drop. Is this the case? Or is it for the trill of the kill. Some have said people are just killing them to keep others from killing them.

If the fact is that people just want to have a chance to kill the end game content, I would ask the devs/guides if they could create an event that these end game mobs would spawn so pick up raids could take the chance at killing them. Of course there could be no loot on these kills because it could upset any balance there is in the game now, if there really is any. This could at least give people the thrill of killing the mobs.

I my self find Everquest more fun to work with the community to accomplish a goal and I really get nothing from it but the experience of being there.

Lanys T`Vyl

[soup]

Here is the question I would like answered. I believe that guilds are camping the end game raid mobs for the items they drop. Is this the case? Or is it for the trill of the kill. Some have said people are just killing them to keep others from killing them.

If the fact is that people just want to have a chance to kill the end game content, I would ask the devs/guides if they could create an event that these end game mobs would spawn so pick up raids could take the chance at killing them. Of course there could be no loot on these kills because it could upset any balance there is in the game now, if there really is any. This could at least give people the thrill of killing the mobs.

I my self find Everquest more fun to work with the community to accomplish a goal and I really get nothing from it but the experience of being there.

Lanys T`Vyl
Somehow I don't think the people sitting AFK for 4 days waiting for a spawn are doing it for "the thrill of the kill" heh

[Bumamgar]

Here is the question I would like answered. I believe that guilds are camping the end game raid mobs for the items they drop. Is this the case? Or is it for the trill of the kill. Some have said people are just killing them to keep others from killing them.
Raid guilds camp end-game mobs for two reasons:

a) Loot to gear up members to prep for the next tier of content

b) Denial of loot to the opposition to prevent them from prepping for the next tier of content

Non-raid guild players participate in raids for two reasons:

a) A chance at a random on loot to improve themselves

b) The thrill of the kill

However, even for non-raid guild players to enjoy (b) there has to be (a). People like to be able to say things like "I was there for the raid when Vox dropped three eyepatches! No, I didn't win one, but damn, that was cool"

I think you'd find some short-term but limited interest in an event to kill Vox or Naggy that resulted in no loot. Some players would tag along for the 'thrill of the kill', but not many. Especially since most p1999 players have already killed Vox and Naggy on live, I would presume.

[Imsetta]

just trying to think of a fun remedy to a problem I have already said can not be solved =P

All games are this way, the people that play the most get the most.

Sorry

Lanys T`Vyl

[guineapig]

1) We are exerting effort. Regardless of how you feel about it, it does take a certain degree of effort to track, camp, and kill the mobs on this server. It is an effort that we in IB and DA are willing to exert, and the rest of the server is not.

Ahem... :rolleyes:

Just cause we don't 24/7 camp or track our raid mobs to kill them doesn't mean we don't count.

[Skope]

just trying to think of a fun remedy to a problem I have already said can not be solved =P

All games are this way, the people that play the most get the most.

Sorry

Lanys T`Vyl

I think many people are having issues with the rule set because it doesn't reward those who play the most, but only those willing to leave their PCs on overnight for 3-4 days and not use their chars. AFKing at spawns is in direct contrast to "those who play the most."

Could just go FFA with no trains, that way whoever engages first, regardless of who's in there first, gets the first shot with no interference from the other guild(s). This is pretty much how it worked on my old server, and only one guild was able to maintain the sort of discipline and tactics to outwit and outplay all of the other guilds on the server (Prexus was the server and the guild was KTF).

[Spirell]

I think many people are having issues with the rule set because it doesn't reward those who play the most, but only those willing to leave their PCs on overnight for 3-4 days and not use their chars. AFKing at spawns is in direct contrast to "those who play the most."

Could just go FFA with no trains, that way whoever engages first, regardless of who's in there first, gets the first shot with no interference from the other guild(s). This is pretty much how it worked on my old server, and only one guild was able to maintain the sort of discipline and tactics to outwit and outplay all of the other guilds on the server (Prexus was the server and the guild was KTF).

The devs could always just enable the raid tool, and allow a full raid's DPS to count toward the kill, that would make FFA a decent option, but with the way EQ was back in classic, a decently constructed KS group for one raid will win all the time, and the guild that put all the effort into tanking and healing would get screwed. Personally like I mentioned earlier, I think just releasing kunark will solve a lot of this, and until then let the guilds do their camping. Once there is stuff for you to do at max level, camping becomes less of an option.

[Imsetta]

I can not speak for any dev/guides, and I my self stay out of anything that I cant handle on my own. On this subject I just wanted to open up ideas.

As for the FFA let me think.

I see no problem with a FFA system if control can be kept. By control I mean people need not train others and cause any kind of death. So if people could keep control and everyone could follow an engagement rule, this could work. But I can see if the rules change this forum would change to a Flame of Guild **** stole the kill from guild ****. We would have pics of people talking and a mob dead and people complaining. And then it would still come down to guilds camping the raid mobs, and because they have there raid force all together there its still easier for them to attack something before other people can assemble and get to the mob. Or you will have 2 or 3 guilds camping a mob and all keeping full buffed and ready to aggro. This would not solve the problem would it?

Lanys T`Vyl

[PhantomRogue]

As others have stated before, the easiest way is to setup a schedule. I remember on Morrel Thule there was a 3 month waiting list to get that one mob for the cleric epic. And soon as he was up, you had to mobilize your guild and go get it. And if you missed your chance, you had to re-signup.

The largest problem with a schedule, is that its on a "Honor System." You have to trust that the community will abide by it.

No amount of content will stop it. I still remember having low level Ranger;s camped in certain safe spots in Ssra to track for XTC, Cursed, Blood/Emp. As well as having them on Dragon/Giant faction to track for Vindi/KT and the NToV dragons. And then racing to those spawn points before the other guilds found out said mob was up. It forced guilds to have HUGE number of people to ensure they had enough on at specific times of day to go kill those mobs. (I remember running NTOV and Ssra with 80 people, the definition of Zerging Content)

The worst part about Everquest is this... When you become a STRONG guild (like people said, there are what... 2 or 3 that can have the raid mobs perma camped), it ruins the end game of EQ. This cycle NEVER ends. How many times did guilds have alts camped in VexThal, Ssra, NTOV, KodTaz, Seb just to be prepared for a respawn.... No matter how much content you create, non-instanced raid bosses cause drama.

The game wasn't fun when you had 80 people on a raid, the fun was when you grouped with the same 30-50, most of whom you still talk to 10 years later.

[guineapig]

Raid guilds camp end-game mobs for two reasons:

a) Loot to gear up members to prep for the next tier of content




Wow, this is completely wrong in this case.
Everyone on the server knows what gear and spells will be available in the next expansion. Everyone knows that the level cap will go up by ten. I am willing to say that 50% of the gear that the current raid guilds are wearing will be replaced within the first few weeks. 90% after a month or two.

(The exception to this would be some resist gear, jewelry, mage focus items, etc.)


As far as weapons go: They will all be considered shite, used for alts or sold to new players for cheap.

[Skope]

Imsetta, you're acting as if mobs haven't been stolen recently. I've been a part of at least 2-3 plane clears where one guild decides to tag/snare another guild's mobs simply because they want the loot, with no care as to who pulled it first. One guild asks them not to do it again, other guild apologizes and it happens again 5minutes later.

Parts of the current ruleset I absolutely agree with, that being no trains and no engaging of another guild's already engaged mob, which has worked very well, and the GMs have put the hammer down and I applaud them for it. At least with this pseudo-FFA system guilds will actually race their way to the content instead of sleeping their way to it.

[PhantomRogue]

I can not speak for any dev/guides, and I my self stay out of anything that I cant handle on my own. On this subject I just wanted to open up ideas.


Heres my Idea.

Why not have the raid mobs drop 'shards.' And those shards used to open up a "fabled" instance of that zone. Drops are buffed (maybe an extra 50% of stats?), mobs are buffed/changed/etc.

And this zone has a global cooldown of... 18 days or something (figure 2.5 times the respawn of the non-instaced raid boss, to give other guilds a chance at the raid mob without competing against the guilds that 'farm' it).

Now, im not sure if the whole raid setup is active (haven't gotten that high on this server), but have the raid formed, the leader 'activate the quest' and the shards are consumed. And then you are all able to click a portal, and zone into the fabled instance.

Still gives a long time for people to compete over non-instanced mobs. And kill trash for drops. And it removes the 'perma-camping' of the raid mobs which lets new and upcoming guilds a chance to raid as well.

And, it allows guilds not to become Zerg fests and leave people perma camped onto of raid spawns, since the benefit of said raid boss is lessened. As well as giving other guilds a chance to recruit and work up strats instead of just leveling, and joining one of the top 2 guilds. Guilds can work from low and become one of the top, not just absorb into them and become larger and larger guilds.

[Bumamgar]

Wow, this is completely wrong in this case.
Everyone on the server knows what gear and spells will be available in the next expansion. Everyone knows that the level cap will go up by ten. I am willing to say that 50% of the gear that the current raid guilds are wearing will be replaced within the first few weeks. 90% after a month or two.

(The exception to this would be some resist gear, jewelry, mage focus items, etc.)


As far as weapons go: They will all be considered shite, used for alts or sold to new players for cheap.

Of course the current tier of items will be replaced quickly when Kunark opens. However, clearly a guild who has farmed the current end-game loot extensively will have an advantage in defeating Kunark bosses over a guild that has not. The combination of making ourselves more powerful along with preventing the competition from becoming more powerful is a strong incentive for continuing to farm content while waiting for new content to open up.

The raiding game has always been about the intra-guild competition, not the content. This is clearly apparent on p1999, and was very clear on The Combine as well. Raid guilds strive to be #1 on the server. They accomplish this by being the first to defeat new content, by being the ones to kill the most existing content every spawn cycle, by having members with the most HP/Mana, etc. They stay #1 by denying content to the competition.

The content is simply the scorecard used to determine the guild rankings. It's just like sports... The draw is the competition between the teams as the season progresses. The individual scoring events (touchdowns etc) are simply the metric used to compare the teams involved in the competition. "Touchdowns" are not the reason people watch football. Similarly, "content" is not the reason raiding guilds raid.

[Pyrocat]

Imsetta, you're acting as if mobs haven't been stolen recently. I've been a part of at least 2-3 plane clears where one guild decides to tag/snare another guild's mobs simply because they want the loot, with no care as to who pulled it first. One guild asks them not to do it again, other guild apologizes and it happens again 5minutes later.

Parts of the current ruleset I absolutely agree with, that being no trains and no engaging of another guild's already engaged mob, which has worked very well, and the GMs have put the hammer down and I applaud them for it. At least with this pseudo-FFA system guilds will actually race their way to the content instead of sleeping their way to it.

Do you really think anyone in IB or DA cares about one or two random trash mobs that get snagged?

I've seen this happen, but it's a rare occurrence, and definitely not recently. It usually creates a very minor amount of drama, if at all.

[Skope]

It doesn't cause a lot of drama, in fact I think all 4 of the guilds tend to be very watchful as to make sure that it doesn't happen and when it does to remain civil, but there have been instances where it has been flat-out ignored by a couple members. And you're right about it not happening very often, but I just wanted to let him know that it does in fact happen, though rarely.

[guineapig]

Of course the current tier of items will be replaced quickly when Kunark opens. However, clearly a guild who has farmed the current end-game loot extensively will have an advantage in defeating Kunark bosses over a guild that has not.

Maybe... but what raid guild isn't almost fully (if not fully) raid geared already?

Hate and Fear have been farmed for months by everyone.

The bosses themselves don't drop anything that will give you an advantage in Kunark, I challenge you to give me an example otherwise.

I already pointed out that the weapons will all be scraped and HP/MANA items all get better in Kunark.

Practically everything that Naggy and Vox drops is tradeable so you can expect that to be handed over to twink alts.

Sure I would like a clicky clarity stick, but I'll get one eventually and it's hardly anything I NEED.

So all you really have left are the planar armor pieces that people will obviously be wearing the longest... which also happen to be the most common of the planar gear.

I'm merely saying that if you think killing these classic bosses will give you an advantage when Kunark comes out you are delusional.

[Reiker]

Yeah the half dozen of epic quest items that drop in the planes aren't very useful in kunark.

[guineapig]

Yeah the half dozen of epic quest items that drop in the planes aren't very useful in kunark.

Not for the first 6 months.... You planning on getting your epic before you start doing raids there?
Try again.

[Bumamgar]

I'm merely saying that if you think killing these classic bosses will give you an advantage when Kunark comes out you are delusional.
So you are saying that day one of Kunark, when guilds are racing for Gore, Sev, Tal, VS, etc. a guild that is fully outfitted in current end-game gear has no advantage over a guild that isn't?

[Taxi]

Again, it pains me to suggest this, but why not put in place this rule:

You cant pass along a named mob that just died to a guildy if someone else is waiting to kill it. Raid or named. You kill it once, you leave the opportunity to someone else.

[guineapig]

So you are saying that day one of Kunark, when guilds are racing for Gore, Sev, Tal, VS, etc. a guild that is fully outfitted in current end-game gear has no advantage over a guild that isn't?

No, I'm saying that any guild that visits Hate and Fear on a regular basis is basically in full end game gear already.

Don't tell me that an extra damage per delay on a dagger (example) is going to put you over the top at level 50. (And by the time your level 60... I refer to my original point.)


So I reiterate: What raid drop is there currently in the game that gives one raid guild an advantage in Kunark over another raid guild?

Answer: There isn't one...

Sorry to burst your bubble guys.

[guineapig]

I would also like to add that there will be such a huge buzz when Kunark goes live that pretty much every guild will have 50+ players logging in for raids, even people we haven't seen in months.

It's going to be such a zerg fest for the simple fact that everybody will want to be there to participate. With those numbers, it will be proper organization that kills raid targets, not a Gold Plated Koshigatana.

[Yoite]

So I reiterate: What raid drop is there currently in the game that gives one raid guild an advantage in Kunark over another raid guild?


AoN for instant click junk buff for tank(s) for dispell mobs?

[Yoite]

but ya, i know what ya mean. i dont think there is anything thats gonna make or break ya if you dont have it right now.

[Mady]

1) We are exerting effort. Regardless of how you feel about it, it does take a certain degree of effort to track, camp, and kill the mobs on this server. It is an effort that we in IB and DA are willing to exert, and the rest of the server is not. It doesn't take any large amount of skill or intelligence, but it IS an effort.

2) I love how random people like you make these wild assumptions about people you don't know. You make it sound like every L50 on this server is some sad pathetic power gamer.

3) you talk about how we are "ruining the game for everyone else" as if it is our duty to ensure that you have a good time on P99. I highly doubt you logged on this morning thinking "man, I'm going to go out of my way to make sure Loke enjoys himself today." Just as my enjoyment isn't your primary concern.. your's isn't mine either.

Basically this thread is just a bunch of people complaining about how they aren't being spoon fed the game, and instead have to compete with players who put in more time and effort. If you want a fair chance at every encounter - go check out instances in WoW.

This is just exactly like reading the live veterans lounge in one of the raider/ non-raider threads.

[Reiker]

No, I'm saying that any guild that visits Hate and Fear on a regular basis is basically in full end game gear already.

Don't tell me that an extra damage per delay on a dagger (example) is going to put you over the top at level 50. (And by the time your level 60... I refer to my original point.)


So I reiterate: What raid drop is there currently in the game that gives one raid guild an advantage in Kunark over another raid guild?

Answer: There isn't one...

Sorry to burst your bubble guys.

Dunno why I'm responding cause everything you post is pretty dumb. But there's very few single "make or break" items that give an entire raid an advantage. Having just 1 uber dragon/god loot on every member of a 40-50 person raid is a cumulative advantage over another guild that has none. The extra DPS of a rogue with Bone Razors or whatever raid weaps, dragon haste, and maxed stats vs. some casual rogue with maybe a full set of woven shadow and a kedge spear or whatever could make or break your attempt on a dps burn mob like VS. And that's 1 member vs. 1 other member, now scale this to see the gear advantage an entire raid force can have over another when your clerics can squeeze and extra CH out of their BCG or whatever.

Shouldn't have to explain this, really.

[guineapig]

Dunno why I'm responding cause everything you post is pretty dumb. But there's very few single "make or break" items that give an entire raid an advantage. Having just 1 uber dragon/god loot on every member of a 40-50 person raid is a cumulative advantage over another guild that has none. The extra DPS of a rogue with Bone Razors or whatever raid weaps, dragon haste, and maxed stats vs. some casual rogue with maybe a full set of woven shadow and a kedge spear or whatever could make or break your attempt on a dps burn mob like VS. And that's 1 member vs. 1 other member, now scale this to see the gear advantage an entire raid force can have over another when your clerics can squeeze and extra CH out of their BCG or whatever.

Shouldn't have to explain this, really.

um...

Bone Razor Dmg 10, Dly 22.
(drops off dracho, was an easy kill by the way)

Eyerazzia Dmg 10, Dly 24. +4 Sta +5 Dex
(drops like candy and pretty much every rogue that's been to Fear has one)

So the bone razor will help how much exactly?

Bard haste + chanter haste + haste item... check! (haste maxes out you know)



Did I mention that these raids for the first couple months will be completely bloated with players who all have access to the raid strategies and some form of vent? If we were talking about a first time 20 main raid on Trak I might agree with you... maybe. But we are talking about raid forces that will most likely be 50+ players on a regular basis.

Did I also mention that there are random weapon drops all over Kunark that are better than your "uber" items? Hell, you will probably find some upgrades on the way to your very first raid target.

But good job on calling my posts dumb, stay classy!

Hey, if you want to believe you have a huge advantage over everyone else then so be it. Whatever helps you sleep at night. :)

[Bumamgar]

I'm merely saying that if you think killing these classic bosses will give you an advantage when Kunark comes out you are delusional.
But good job on calling my posts dumb, stay classy
Pot, meet kettle...

[guineapig]

Pot, meet kettle...

I fail to see how those two comments are the same thing and I stand by this comment:

I'm merely saying that if you think killing these classic bosses will give you an advantage when Kunark comes out you are delusional.

[Bumamgar]

If you call others delusional for not agreeing with you, that's classy...

Him calling your posts dumb, that's not classy...

I got it now... thanks!

[guineapig]

If you call others delusional for not agreeing with you, that's classy...

Him calling your posts dumb, that's not classy...

I got it now... thanks!

I wasn't referring to him specifically, I was referring to the community at large.

Most people on the server know that classic loot will be junk once Kunark is released.

Some people just don't want it said too loud because it effects their e-peen or ability to overcharge for items or whatever.

I've yet to see a single example of one of these classic uber raid drops that effectively gives one guild an advantage over another in Kunark.

My posts are in response to this notion that trying to corner the market on raid spawns is going to help certain guilds when Kunark is released.

I'm calling BS on that.
You dig?

[SchadenFreude]

I've yet to see a single example of one of these classic uber raid drops that effectively gives one guild an advantage over another in Kunark.

A guild with tanks in full planes armor will fare much better against content in Kunark than a guild without any tanks in planar armor. The AC upgrade alone is a huge advantage.

Getting drops from the planes that will later be used to complete epics, before Kunark opens, is a huge advantage.

High end raiding guilds should be farming the planes as much as possible, right now, to minimize the delays in getting people fully geared when additional content opens. If the prerequisites are available today then why would anyone wait to begin those pre-reqs until November?

[guineapig]

A guild with tanks in full planes armor will fare much better against content in Kunark than a guild without any tanks in planar armor. The AC upgrade alone is a huge advantage.

Getting drops from the planes that will later be used to complete epics, before Kunark opens, is a huge advantage.

High end raiding guilds should be farming the planes as much as possible, right now, to minimize the delays in getting people fully geared when additional content opens. If the prerequisites are available today then why would anyone wait to begin those pre-reqs until November?

Like I said before, people are already getting full planar armor. The planes get cleared on a regular basis by multiple guilds. There are people with a full set of backup raid gear in the bank because they didn't want to see the items rot.

At least read my previous posts before replying.

[Branaddar]

I'm pretty sure nobody's saying classic loot > Kunark loot.

What they are saying is a classic-geared guild will have an easier time on encounters than an xp-group-geared one.

Disregarding this fact by saying kunark loot > classic loot does not negate the fact.

[guineapig]

I'm pretty sure nobody's saying classic loot > Kunark loot.

What they are saying is a classic-geared guild will have an easier time on encounters than an xp-group-geared one.

Disregarding this fact by saying kunark loot > classic loot does not negate the fact.

I thought we were specifically referring to getting classic boss drops versus not getting classic boss drops. That is what this is about right? Camping raid bosses so that one guild can have an "advantage" over another guild?

When did this become about planar loot in general? Last time I checked, anyone can farm the planes any time they want. Even while another guild is in the zone!!! :eek:

[Landis]

I'm pretty sure nobody's saying classic loot > Kunark loot.

What they are saying is a classic-geared guild will have an easier time on encounters than an xp-group-geared one.

Disregarding this fact by saying kunark loot > classic loot does not negate the fact.

it'll be a lot easier to level to 60 if you're raid geared, as well

[Taxi]

To me, for the third time, its not about what the loot is, its about how fail are rules that let guilds perma-lock mobs if they got the numbers to do it? Very fail.

This can be solved by ditching those rules and letting people FFA it. Along the way, people would get a reputation for being courteous or asses, or something in the middle. Reputation, remember that?

But since this is probably never going to happen, the next best thing is: No guild can kill an end-game (20+?) named boss more than once if theres someone in-line to kill it. Its lame but you wont think its lame when you see IB and DA merge, or some similar event.

[guineapig]

it'll be a lot easier to level to 60 if you're raid geared, as well

OMG, all raid guilds are raid geared already!

[Landis]

OMG, all raid guilds are raid geared already!

i'm not taking any sides here, i'm simply stating a fact that hadn't been mentioned yet.

[Reiker]

I don't think Chicanery realizes to obtain that superior Kunark loot you actually have to kill Kunark mobs. Unless he has the inside track on an auto kunark loot distribution NPC that we can hail for phatz.

[guineapig]

i'm not taking any sides here, i'm simply stating a fact that hadn't been mentioned yet.

I apologize Landis, and I agree with you.

To any up and coming guilds who have not entered the planes yet:

Don't let threads like these dishearten you. As long as you can figure out the best way for you to break into the zone and have good communication there is no reason why you can't gear out your members in planar armor. Don't take the boss drops to be the be all end all because they aren't.

Just because a guild is camping CT or Inny for 2 days straight does not mean you can't go into the zone and start farming gear. So you end up with a dagger that has 2 more delay... So what?

I don't think Chicanery realizes to obtain that superior Kunark loot you actually have to kill Kunark mobs. Unless he has the inside track on an auto kunark loot distribution NPC that we can hail for phatz.

All I have to say to you is this:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5474&highlight=kunark+loot

This "uber Kunark loot" will be dropping all over the place for every experience group.

I'm simply trying to let those that have not been to the planes yet know, that it's not too late for them get properly geared for all the content that lies ahead. Raid bosses or not.

[Yoite]

dont forget the planes will still be there when kunark comes out. you dont *have* to be in #1 guild to raid, there is nothing wrong imo with tiered guilds. on TZ Pandemonium would keep newest content on lock down, be it through pvp or just training. Disco and Indig tried to complete with them and they had some good competition going on but pretty much Pande got the newest stuff, and everyone else was an expansion behind, or even 2+ expansions behind.

for a long time i was in a guild that was raiding about 2 expansions behind Pande, and it was the best guild i have ever been in, in any game/server. raiding is still raiding, doesnt really matter what the content is.

[Yoite]

those that wanna put in the time and effort and such to stay on top, good for them, let them have at it and compete for it.

those that just wanna raid, just raid earlier content. although you cant do that now i know, speaking Kunark and beyond.

[Branaddar]

Yeah, my best memories of raiding in EQ were with a guild that (started off) one expansion behind current. We did it with fewer numbers (30 or so was our average raid force) than anyone else, and we slowly caught up to the top guilds.

Hell, every guild I joined after that one I was repeating content again. I did Velious/Luclin with 4 different guilds before finally doing PoP.

I have no desire to be #1 anymore, heck I'm not sure I even want to raid this time around. Not because of desire, but because of time. I have 2 babies and 2 teens and a 40+ hour a week job now. I just can't let it intrude on my life like it did when I had the time to waste.

But anyway, yeah I can see the points all around. I like to play devil's advocate a lot and stand up for the quiet voice that makes some sense but games flamed to hell. I don't even necessarily agree with that opinion so much as think of it as a valid one :P

[Reiker]

All I have to say to you is this:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5474&highlight=kunark+loot

While you're spending time farming gear to upgrade every slot, players from superior guilds with superior classic gear are going to already be hitting up the lower end Kunark raid targets and leveling up for Trakanon.

[guineapig]

While you're spending time farming gear to upgrade every slot, players from superior guilds with superior classic gear are going to already be hitting up the lower end Kunark raid targets and leveling up for Trakanon.


ROFL...

What part of random drops don't you understand?

We will all be "leveling up for Trakanon"... and getting gear while we do it.
You either didn't read what I wrote or don't understand. You certainly didn't look at the link.

While you're spending time farming gear to upgrade every slot,
Also, the items you are wearing are not all boss drops, who are you trying to kid?

Seriously man, this is starting to sound like some sort of complex, and it's kind of funny.
Does it bother you than some of us don't care about what your character currently has?

[Reiker]

No point arguing, we'll see how it goes.

Divinity, future #1 Kunark raid guild.

[Alawen Everywhere]

ROFL...

What part of random drops don't you understand?

We will all be "leveling up for Trakanon"... and getting gear while we do it.
You either didn't read what I wrote or don't understand. You certainly didn't look at the link.

Seriously man, this is starting to sound like some sort of complex, and it's kind of funny.
Does it bother you than some of us don't care about what your character currently has?

I'm going to have to call shenanigans on this. Chicanery is just straight up trolling.

All of us know how this game works. More hit points and armor class and resists mean more survivability. Better weapons mean more dps. Bigger mana pools mean both.

Some of us, however, reveal that we don't know all that much about the progression when we pretend that there aren't excellent items that drop from raid bosses in classic. Go look through Kunark loot and tell me what you prefer over Bone-Clasped Girdle. Now tell me about the upgrade for Cloak of Flames. Here's a hint: the Cloak of Flames off Talendor isn't better than the one off Nagafen. If you can't tell the difference between a 10/19 weapon and a 10/24 weapon, you probably don't belong in a raid guild at all.

No, we are not camping for days in order to stop you from getting drops. Members of Divinity, Chicanery's guild, got themselves a Maestro kill the other day because we had no need for his loot.

Use your brain. This server has been up for eight months. We don't get full spawns on server reset like live--all the bosses have persistent timers. That means there is less loot here. Each boss on Project 1999 has been killed about 50 times, with the exception of Innoruuk who has been killed less than 20 times. Dracoliche has been killed about 100 times, and Maestro about 40. That's by everyone combined and that's just not all that much loot to pass around. Yes, this is a zero sum game.

There is also massive misinformation here about the history of raiding on this server. IB had nothing to do with starting the camps. I am possibly the most vocal opponent within IB to camping raid mobs. I think it's lame as hell.

DA is responsible for camping bosses. It started with Salty and Fish Bait and groups too small, under-geared and low level to even kill the bosses they camped. As far as I know, Durison's only leadership experience in EverQuest is on Project 1999 and, not surprisingly, his only strategy is the one he learned from Salty.

[Loke]

I think it's ridiculous to have the mind-set that all current items will be replaced, thus they are not worth the effort to obtain. By that logic, you might as well never spend any time getting any gear, since all the gear in the next expansion is better.

Crimson Robe, CoF, RBB, White Dragon Scale Cloak, BCG, All Bard Inst., Inny cloak, Inny Shoulders, Draco Shoulders... all items that are still among the best in the game come kunark that drop off raid bosses. I'm not saying that they make or break a guild - but anything you can do to get your members more mana, more hps, more dps... the better imo.

[Reiker]

Yeah I'm being trolled hard here.

[Yoite]

but gave ya something to do at work at least! these forums certainly helped me get through this slow day.

[guineapig]

Some of us, however, reveal that we don't know all that much about the progression when we pretend that there aren't excellent items that drop from raid bosses in classic. Go look through Kunark loot and tell me what you prefer over Bone-Clasped Girdle. Now tell me about the upgrade for Cloak of Flames. Here's a hint: the Cloak of Flames off Talendor isn't better than the one off Nagafen. If you can't tell the difference between a 10/19 weapon and a 10/24 weapon, you probably don't belong in a raid guild at all.


Well I was comparing a 10/20 dagger with no stats that drops maybe once a week if your lucky to a 10/22 with stats that drops probably every day, but what ever.

Also, the Bone-Clasped Girdle will be added to Dread, Fright and Terror's loot tables with the revamp of Fear so it's not exactly the best example.

Listen man, I'm not trying to hate on IB. I was talking to Reiker and responding to his opinions with my own.

If telling new players not to get discouraged is wrong... well than I don't know what to say about that.

Min/max all you want and play the victim with my responses but I don't see how what I said that was so wrong.


You don't need the very best gear in the game to do all the content in the game.

If you can find fallacy with that statement then I'll eat my words and delete all my previous posts on the subject.

[Skope]

His point is that a lot (day i say almost ALL) of the gear in classic that we as raiding guilds are wearing don't last past level 55 in kunark. I can think of a few instances where this isn't the case, but his point, and a valid one for anyone that can actually remember this far back, is the rather large discrepancy between classic loot and kunark loot. The stats on loot from Kunark=>Velious was just a fraction of the drastic difference between classic => kunark.

For instance, on my shaman I can only think of 1 single piece of gear that will last me through kunark (nevermind velious). But, hypothetically, if this was kunark I can think of perhaps 7 or 8 that can last me all the way through velious.

Kunark wasn't famous for its resist gear, thus I can understand camping planar sets and the super-awesome resist shoulders. CoF // RBB are great, but Seb cloak and RBG are more than sufficient and a hell of a lot easier to get. Mana/HP gear in classic would make sense if we were still raiding with 15-20 people, but, let's be honest, numbers will only drop that low if we're AFK-sitting on something. The first time that EQ brought about tiered gear was during late-stage kunark raiding, and I don't mean trak and the other wussy dragons (maybe epic lockdowns). It then continued all the way through velious, which is where the top guilds really left everyone else behind.

[Gwence]

Its the mindset of the guild, if you're not willing to do what it takes to get raid loot now, you wont be able/willing to do it in Kunark. Because the competition will be even tougher than it is now.

Also, what draco shoulders?

[Skope]

Gwence, please don't tell me that guilds with 300 members will stay on top in kunark, because with epics and keycamping (moreso the keys, really), the big guilds are actually at a disadvantage. Sure they may start out with 60 a raid, but when 40 of those people realize that they aren't getting keyed and their fellow raiders are already doing what they have to wait months to do, it quite simply won't last.

Kunark is when you saw the tactical mindsets of guilds in their class selection. You very rarely saw more than 2 mages a raid, 2-3 shaman, couple monks and perhaps 2 warriors (often get by with just one). It wasn't because having more people wouldn't help, not at all. It was purely because they didn't want to wait for the rest and didn't really have to.

To put it simply, guilds didn't "wait" for the rest to catch up, they just dropped them off along the side of the road and kept driving. Hence you got the whole step-ladder guild movement. If the guild above you was 2 steps too high, then you were SOL and bound to stay where you are until you can make up the ground and hope they pause at some time.

[Loke]

Also, the Bone-Clasped Girdle will be added to Dread, Fright and Terror's loot tables with the revamp of Fear so it's not exactly the best example.

You don't need the very best gear in the game to do all the content in the game.


I could be wrong here, but wasn't the Fear revamp a Velious thing? If so, kind of off topic for the classic v. kunark argument.

While you don't NEED the very best gear, it certainly helps. As with any competition, every little advantage helps and it's simply foolish* to say otherwise.

*Note: The use of the word foolish was not intended as a personal attack.

[Alawen Everywhere]

His point is that a lot (day i say almost ALL) of the gear in classic that we as raiding guilds are wearing don't last past level 55 in kunark. I can think of a few instances where this isn't the case, but his point, and a valid one for anyone that can actually remember this far back, is the rather large discrepancy between classic loot and kunark loot. The stats on loot from Kunark=>Velious was just a fraction of the drastic difference between classic => kunark.

For instance, on my shaman I can only think of 1 single piece of gear that will last me through kunark (nevermind velious). But, hypothetically, if this was kunark I can think of perhaps 7 or 8 that can last me all the way through velious.

Kunark wasn't famous for its resist gear, thus I can understand camping planar sets and the super-awesome resist shoulders. CoF // RBB are great, but Seb cloak and RBG are more than sufficient and a hell of a lot easier to get. Mana/HP gear in classic would make sense if we were still raiding with 15-20 people, but, let's be honest, numbers will only drop that low if we're AFK-sitting on something. The first time that EQ brought about tiered gear was during late-stage kunark raiding, and I don't mean trak and the other wussy dragons (maybe epic lockdowns). It then continued all the way through velious, which is where the top guilds really left everyone else behind.

So now the argument is not about getting the best, it's about what's "more than sufficient" and "a hell of a lot easier to get"?

Straw man much?

Why do you even post?

[Skope]

It's not about straw manning, it's about knowing when to put in the effort, for what, and at the appropriate time. Alawenn, I've seen your old guild members drop like flies because of the recent state of raidcamping, and apparently you're not in favor of it either, so why all the hate?

I think we actually see eye to eye on some things, but perhaps we don't on the amount of effort (or lack of it, really) that's going on as of late. I'm not going to miss work to kill naggy, it's not worth it. I'm not going to deprive myself of sleep, it's not worth it. And I'm well aware of that. But the fact is, a lot of these people who are doing it now will realize much the same thing, it's just unfortunate that they'll be driven to quit long before then.

If they can, well that's great for them! But at its current state it's happening by bending and molding the rules (and the guild itself) in order to accomplish things that can be made far easier for everybody (and ESPECIALLY for those who would put in extra effort and time) without having to burn so many damn people out.


EDIT: the issue of kunark and velious and the problems that will unfold are secondary to what the OP and the majority of the past 14 pages have been about, and that's the incessant camping that's going on. I think we're all diverting off-topic.

[rioisk]

Just remember guys. When people from IB flex their e-peen and talk about being the best it actually translates to "we play 24 hours a day and are on raid-alert 24 hours day". You could be the worst player and still have the best gear/see the most content simply from dedication. This means you are giving up doing other more productive/fun things with your life.

[Skope]

To phrase it in words that a select few of us will understand:

If you keep poopsocking, you're bound to run out of socks.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Just remember guys. When people from IB flex their e-peen and talk about being the best it actually translates to "we play 24 hours a day and are on raid-alert 24 hours day". You could be the worst player and still have the best gear/see the most content simply from dedication. This means you are giving up doing other more productive/fun things with your life.

If you tried hard, I'm sure you could come up with an even more bizarre metaphor for your straw man argument.

The point under discussion here is whether the loot that drops in classic offers an advantage to the people who receive it. Despite attempts to turn that discussion into what's almost as good in the next expansion or who doesn't have a life while they camp it, the answer to that question is yes. Top end guilds with top end loot have an advantage. That's the way this game works.

The reasons some of you think top end loot gets easily replaced in the next expansion are because you never had top end loot in EQ and you played a lot of WoW.

[apio]

i like to think of EQ as a game where skill actually has a big impact on the end result. Most raids in Kunark and Velious were not really about the gear you had but about having the right strategies to the encounters, and about the execution of those strategies.

As Planar armor / random trash drops are freely available to more than just 2 guilds, i dont believe there will be any huge advantage for any guild thats raiding at the moment. It doesnt really matter who gets the Big Four (or 7 if you count draco, maestro and phinny).

If anything, those guilds that are so huge right now (because the only way you see a boss mob is by joining exactly those guilds) will run into big problems during kunark, when theyre trying to "gear up" 50 or more people for the upcoming expansion. This will lead to the same result it did back on live, downsizing, for a variety of reasons. if thats not possible the only thing the leading guilds will be able to do to stop smaller guilds from progressing faster than they are, is to monopolize the content and "cockblock" other guilds. this is also what happened on Live, btw !

But then again, as a few people already pointed out, cockblocking and gearing up is really not the issue in the transition from Classic to Kunark.

but thats just my 2cp

[guineapig]

So now the argument is not about getting the best, it's about what's "more than sufficient" and "a hell of a lot easier to get"?


Actually it was about one versus the other.

I mentioned countless times that as far as the armor sets go, every guild that wants them can get them now.

As far as the niche items go they will singlehandedly not win you the raid.

Sure it can make the raid somewhat easier (insignificantly so if you actually parse the data) but now where does that leave us?
The people that claim that they want the bigest challenge also want it to be as easy as possible via gear?

Like I said, if you feel that it is essential to get every (for example) rogue main and alt in your guild a bone razor or whatever in order to be effective in Kunark raids than great! It doesn't matter to me. What bugs me is when some people keep repeating the same lines over and over again to the point that others get disheartened with the state of the server and leave, of even worse backstab whoever they can in order to get that item that has 10 more hitpoints then that other item.

How many people have we already seen on this server that had the very best raid drops in the game and no longer play either because they got tired of it or got banned. How many weeks did it take to gear up those players? How many of those items would not have been upgraded in Kunark? How long do you really think it will take other guilds to catch up once kunark is released?

It's not flaming, it's called a disagreement.

[Reiker]

You either didn't read what I wrote or don't understand. You certainly didn't look at the link.

By the way, unlike you I don't need to read some post on a forum to know what drops in Kunark. I've actually played EQ before. Maybe you should give Allakhazam a whirl since that thread has like 15% of all Kunark drops. Your mind will be blown!

[Akpainter]

So I hate to post on page 16 of this somewhat derailed thread but just a thought-

Why not return to a rotation schedule and decrease the spawn time on the raid mobs? You can’t have a positive without a negative so you decrease the % rate of the drop items to offset the more frequent spawn times. Take the variance back out and say Naggy- 3 days from point of kill to respawn and if the respawn is cut 50% you cut the drop rate = amount. It is not a great option but I think reducing the poopsocking requirement will reduce some of the burnout and hard feelings that are tainting a very small community right now.

Seems like the current raid only has a "chance" of getting the item so why not spawn more with less % and every raid will still have a chance. This doesn’t flood the market or population with raid loot and then gives everyone a run for it on a civil schedule. I have camped frenzy for 10 hours straight and got no less then 12 rings in that time with no FBSS. Doesnt mean the next spawn wont be a 2-fer or 3-some all with sash's.

I have been watching the level of burnout skyrocket in the raiding guilds and to a lesser extent in the normal population and that is a sad state for this server. I understand there will always be the "classic" feel to poopsocking or staying up so long you have no idea what day or time it is. While those were great times when the game was actually new and we didn’t know much about spawns and loots we are all a little older and hopefully wiser.

I can’t say that what is drawing people in to continue playing on this server is the poopsocking. Call me crazy but if I have to watch 3+ movies just to hold a spawn my ass needs to relook at my motives. I can certainly play for more then 3 movies or even 1 season of a TV show but playing draws me in, not poopsocking.

I have a job, family, friends, and social commitments that don’t allow me to raid with the current state of affairs and that is OK. I have no hard feelings because I can’t raid, however I would love to raid but it is not going to happen anytime soon with this setup. However what I am seeing more and more is people’s attitudes changing (worse) and the servers attractive and appealing atmosphere is dropping. Again while we are trying to emulate classic we do not have the 1000's of players who were flocking to the live servers in the early days to supplement the players who are decreasing in play time or quitting on this server.

[guineapig]

By the way, unlike you I don't need to read some post on a forum to know what drops in Kunark. I've actually played EQ before.

Okay, well then you should know that you can't really camp gear that drops off of random mobs in the zone... /boggle
Again you missed thew point I was getting at. You can simply exp grind to get gear or even get some while clearing your way to a raid boss. Didn't think I had to spell out what the thread was about.

Maybe you should give Allakhazam a whirl since that thread has like 15% of all Kunark drops. Your mind will be blown

With regards to this, I post Allakhazam links on a regular basis when answering people's questions so I'm not sure what you're getting at with your comment.

[rioisk]

If you tried hard, I'm sure you could come up with an even more bizarre metaphor for your straw man argument.

The point under discussion here is whether the loot that drops in classic offers an advantage to the people who receive it. Despite attempts to turn that discussion into what's almost as good in the next expansion or who doesn't have a life while they camp it, the answer to that question is yes. Top end guilds with top end loot have an advantage. That's the way this game works.

The reasons some of you think top end loot gets easily replaced in the next expansion are because you never had top end loot in EQ and you played a lot of WoW.

You are right--nice use of freshman year philosophy class. Doesn't make what I said any less true. And I think the current rules support and reward this archtype of people without any real justification aside from references to "fair".

I think fair would be FFA because this would make it so time commitment isn't the only determinant of access to raid content/gear. I think the ability to thwart other guilds attempts or outDPS them SHOULD be a factor because in the absence of rules this is what would happen. I think the current rules just distort incentives and favor a certain kind of player. It isn't real competition just a test of willpower to spend the most time on the game.

[Skope]

Rioisk, I think you have it backwards. If FFA was enabled (with minor rules) it would allow for those with the most amount of time and effort to benefit, rather than those who are drawing themselves away from EQ by leaving their PCs on and not touching their character for 3-4 days. In my eyes, and the eyes of many, that's fair and that's how it should be.

[Neno]

Just put all the raiding guilds on a welfare system. At the start of the month the guild leaders of each guild get 4 x Cazic, 4 x Inny, 4 x Vox, 4 x Naggy tokens. 8 x Draco and 8 x Maestro tokens. In each corresponding monsters lair is in NPC who when given the token will spawn the raid boss. If you wipe on the boss it despawns. Just play around with the drop % and amount of items per boss and suddenly everyone can raid without having to shit in a sock.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I like to shit in a sock without raiding.

http://scatter.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/the_more_you_know2.jpg

[nicemace]

what i find silly is you guys are saying you dont care about these 'best' items, yet you care that IB and DA camp mobs.

so what youre saying is you dont want the loot, but you want the raids... so you can get the loot.

if you dont care about any of the god/boss drops, why dont ya just leave it to IB and DA to do their thing?

[Alawen Everywhere]

You are right--nice use of freshman year philosophy class. Doesn't make what I said any less true. And I think the current rules support and reward this archtype of people without any real justification aside from references to "fair".

I think fair would be FFA because this would make it so time commitment isn't the only determinant of access to raid content/gear. I think the ability to thwart other guilds attempts or outDPS them SHOULD be a factor because in the absence of rules this is what would happen. I think the current rules just distort incentives and favor a certain kind of player. It isn't real competition just a test of willpower to spend the most time on the game.

Yeah, we get it. If we play better than you, we clearly have no life.

Bring on the FFA. We'll continue to beat you and you'll have new reasons and excuses for why you suck at this game. It'll be fun for everyone.

[guineapig]

what i find silly is you guys are saying you dont care about these 'best' items, yet you care that IB and DA camp mobs.

so what youre saying is you dont want the loot, but you want the raids... so you can get the loot.


I can only speak for myself here but I just want to experience at least 1 Inny raid and 1 CT raid before Kunark is released. They can camp all they want.
We've called timers on guilds before and ended up getting the kill by presuring them. It will happen again. They wipe on raids same as anyone else.

With so many active casters in my guild currently I don't realistically expect to get any CT or Inny loot before Kunark goes live and I'm fine with that. I have all the Insidious armor I need, same goes for resist gear aside from a couple BD items I'm too lazy to farm for and too broke to shell out for at the moment. But it's not impeding me in any way. When I'm not on a raid I'm leveling alts nd having tons of fun doing it.

So, anyway, in my case at least your comment does not stand true.

[Taluvill]

Its the mindset of the guild, if you're not willing to do what it takes to get raid loot now, you wont be able/willing to do it in Kunark. Because the competition will be even tougher than it is now.

Also, what draco shoulders?

The resist ones that are like 1/10000 drops

[Shurid]

Maybe you should get kicked to login screen after being afk for "set" amount of time, regardless of if your standing of sitting.

I know the technology exists, because when I'm not touching my mouse or keyboard my computer begins to fly through space, its actually quite neat-o. :eek:

[Alawen Everywhere]

The resist ones that are like 1/10000 drops

Shawl of Protection doesn't exist until Plane of Fear changes.

[Uaellaen]

Maybe you should get kicked to login screen after being afk for "set" amount of time, regardless of if your standing of sitting.

I know the technology exists, because when I'm not touching my mouse or keyboard my computer begins to fly through space, its actually quite neat-o. :eek:

Hmmm didnt sony even introduce the idle = kick at some point?

[guineapig]

Hmmm didnt sony even introduce the idle = kick at some point?

I think so, unless you were in the Bazaar. At least the character select screen boots you after a few minutes so the code exists in game now.

[Loke]

Shawl of Protection doesn't exist until Plane of Fear changes.

You sure about that? Thought they were classic, just extremely rare.

[Pyrocat]

I like how the couple people trolling this thread insinuate that IB is a zerg guild.


We've called timers on guilds before and ended up getting the kill by presuring them. It will happen again. They wipe on raids same as anyone else.


who is 'they'?

[Alawen Everywhere]

You sure about that? Thought they were classic, just extremely rare.

I can't find any mention of the shawl anywhere before 2001.

[guineapig]

I like how the couple people trolling this thread insinuate that IB is a zerg guild.

I like how you try to change the subject and make yourself look like a victim. IB has called every other guild that has ever competed with them a zerg guild at one time or another. Trans, Divinity, Fishbait, DA. And no, I'm not going to link examples from the forums because Reiker won't read them anyway. I guess you reap what you sow... Anyway, what does this have to do with anything that's currently being discussed?

who is 'they'?

They is other guilds, the subject of my statement.

[Pyrocat]

I like how the couple people trolling this thread insinuate that IB is a zerg guild.

Yeah.. that's definitely playing the victim card :rolleyes:

I don't believe I've ever called Divinity a zerg guild. Transcendence used to mass recruit anyone over level 30 and in OOC. DA mass recruits anyone over level 40 and regularly kills raid bosses with over 50 players. One of my friends got a random tell inviting them to DA from a complete stranger. IB was founded on the belief that a small organized force of skilled players will be better and have more fun raiding than a zerg force. It's just a difference in preference.

They is other guilds, the subject of my statement.

Yes. Obviously. I was asking specifically what guilds you've called a timer on and then successfully downed their target.

[Aadill]

Yes. Obviously. I was asking specifically what guilds you've called a timer on and then successfully downed their target.

Both Divinity and DA have successfully called and claimed mobs from each other following the current ruleset.

[Pyrocat]

As for the title of the thread: I don't want to speak for the guild, but I am not happy with the camping situation. Unfortunately, Fish Bait/DA started the strategy of AFK camping raid mobs, and it got them a few kills. So IB reluctantly adapted and beat them (from my PoV) at their own game.

I for one would like to see the rules changed, but I feel very strongly that the system we have now is much better than when we had a forced rotation. I think we have a decent set of rules that encourages competition, but they need a few tweaks.

[Pyrocat]

Both Divinity and DA have successfully called and claimed mobs from each other following the current ruleset.

Oh cool, I was unaware of that.

[Aadill]

As for the title of the thread: I don't want to speak for the guild, but I am not happy with the camping situation. Unfortunately, Fish Bait/DA started the strategy of AFK camping raid mobs, and it got them a few kills. So IB reluctantly adapted and beat them (from my PoV) at their own game.

I see it as a chess game at the moment.

Each group is still getting mobs but chess is only a 2 opponent game.

[guineapig]

I don't believe I've ever called Divinity a zerg guild.

No, I don't recall you saying such either. However there were others in your guild who have. I recall one such time when we happened to have had a large turn out for a raid (which was to be expected since it was a mob we have been wanting for a while).

I'm not into naming names. It is in the past and really doesn't matter anyway.

Oh cool, I was unaware of that.

Yeah Pyro, I just try not to mention guild names either in my posts because then stuff can get twisted and misinterpreted. I'm sure you can relate.

I didn't want anyone in DA thinking that I was bragging or some nonsense. As stated, we have also run out of time versus DA.

As for the title of the thread: I don't want to speak for the guild, but I am not happy with the camping situation.

I hear ya, and I know there are people in both guilds who share this sentiment.

I for one would like to see the rules changed, but I feel very strongly that the system we have now is much better than when we had a forced rotation.

I mostly agree with this. Rotation was done away with when a third guild entered the fray due to fear other guilds following close behind. Rightfully so since the number of current targets at their current spawn rates is way too low to handle 4-5 or more guilds. Could this change with Kunark? Possibly.

We could in theory do a sky rotation when it opens which would stick one guild exclusively up there for a couple of days in exchange for not doing other raid targets during that time. (You essentially would need to do this anyway while you're in sky based on the recent dev posts). This increases the chances for other guilds.

I think we have a decent set of rules that encourages competition, but they need a few tweaks.

The only tweak to the current rules that I could come up with that didn't involve any sort of rotation was the simulated server restart idea which I posted about numerous times. People seemed to be into it any it totally simulates the classic raiding experience. Hey, if we can't have drum animations because it was a bug in classic then why can't we do a simulated server reset when like once every week or two all boss mobs pop at the same time? I still think this is not only totally classic but potentially a lot of fun too!

Also, this simulated reset (just the boss mobs, not an actual server reset) would not be in place of the current variant spawn system, just in addition to it.

[guineapig]

I see it as a chess game at the moment.

Each group is still getting mobs but chess is only a 2 opponent game.

It's more like Attrition warfare actually.
There's no strategy or skill involved in sitting and waiting.

[Aadill]

It's more like Attrition warfare actually.
There's no strategy or skill involved in sitting and waiting.

If you choose to look at it from the perspective of people just not wanting to log in because they hate abiding by the rules as they exist, yes, I agree. That is the very definition of attrition and is appropriate.

I was going more for the idea that in chess, you sometimes make sacrifices of certain pieces to gain advantage over your opponent by exposing vulnerabilities. As of right now, if you want a raid target there is a requirement to move your resources to the best location. If something else spawns and is not as important to you, it will go to your opponent.

Perhaps this is Attrition Chess? or Chessfare? Can we do that, judges?

[Taxi]

To me the best option would be to FFA it, but i dont think itll ever pass here so.

Why did no one comment on the idea of not letting a guild kill a named more than once if theres someone in-line to kill it? Its a dumb idea or people just like perma-locking mobs too much? (And saying "yea, its dumb" without explaining why is not convincing).

It would let everyone get a shot at boss mobs without devs having to micro-manage some clusterfuck guild schedule.

[rioisk]

i like what DA is doing now. Recruit as many as possible and divide up and permacamp every raid mob in window. How is this not expected? The only way to 100% guarantee a kill is to camp for hours ready to engage when the mob spawns. If your forces can cover all the spawns then you perma-win.

I'm sure this will be a problem for them come Kunark though.....

[Alawen Everywhere]

i like what DA is doing now. Recruit as many as possible and divide up and permacamp every raid mob in window. How is this not expected? The only way to 100% guarantee a kill is to camp for hours ready to engage when the mob spawns. If your forces can cover all the spawns then you perma-win.

I'm sure this will be a problem for them come Kunark though.....

Actually, the problem comes when one of the officers gets his third loot and the peons revolt. That's what usually happens to zerg guilds--huge drama and mass quitting when they people getting used realize they're getting used.

[G13]

i like what DA is doing now. Recruit as many as possible and divide up and permacamp every raid mob in window. How is this not expected? The only way to 100% guarantee a kill is to camp for hours ready to engage when the mob spawns. If your forces can cover all the spawns then you perma-win.

I'm sure this will be a problem for them come Kunark though.....

IB actually started doing this first

Shhhh...they aren't a zerg guild though, even though they bind rush Vox

[Aadill]

Actually, the problem comes when one of the officers gets his third loot and the peons revolt. That's what usually happens to zerg guilds--huge drama and mass quitting when they people getting used realize they're getting used.

Hmmmmm.

[Yoite]

way off topic but since yall raiders are viewing this tread, has the necro pet focus book droped off inny yet?

[Aadill]

Yep

[Alawen Everywhere]

IB actually started doing this first

Shhhh...they aren't a zerg guild though, even though they bind rush Vox

Nice try, but no. We were typically raiding with 20-25 before DA started spam recruiting and camping two zones at once. Now we have twice as many members. Better for those new members and arguably better for the server, not as much fun for those of us who enjoy challenge of small raids.

Your confusion comes from the fact that we're better at this, too.

[astarothel]

IB actually started doing this first

Shhhh...they aren't a zerg guild though, even though they bind rush Vox

Welcome to the forums, Anonymous Troll #232346. You've been a member here for four days, so obviously know everything.

[Aadill]

before DA started spam recruiting

?! Oh god I'm supposed to be recruiting for hybrid classes. I've been slacking!

[Alawen Everywhere]

?! Oh god I'm supposed to be recruiting for hybrid classes. I've been slacking!

Going for three boss camps at once next?

[Aadill]

Going for three boss camps at once next?

Three small raid forces taking on the challenge of the Everquest raid encounters :)

[Loke]

Going for three boss camps at once next?

Come on Alawen - you, me, and the rest of both of our guilds know that you guys had Naggy and CT camped at the same time last week. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but it's kind of silly to bash another guild for something you're actively doing aswell.

[G13]

Nice try, but no. We were typically raiding with 20-25 before DA started spam recruiting and camping two zones at once. Now we have twice as many members. Better for those new members and arguably better for the server, not as much fun for those of us who enjoy challenge of small raids.

Your confusion comes from the fact that we're better at this, too.

The only mob that requires a real raid force is Vox brew. IB was the one bind rushing Vox and failing miserably. Maybe if you wouldn't talk so much shit and act like an ahole all the time, people wouldn't be forced to talk about these things?

Claiming mobs does not = raiding them

Keep pretending like IB is the only guild made up of old school raiders or something. I guess you need to grasp onto any little delusion you can that gives meaning to your shitty life. How's the ex wifey these days?

[Alawen Everywhere]

Come on Alawen - you, me, and the rest of both of our guilds know that you guys had Naggy and CT camped at the same time last week. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that, but it's kind of silly to bash another guild for something you're actively doing aswell.

You, me and the rest of both of our guilds know you started the big sit. Last week was just the first week we kicked your ass at it.

I hate the big sit. Mobilizing for a race is one of my favorite things in this game.

[Aadill]

You, me and the rest of both of our guilds know you started the big sit. Last week was just the first week we kicked your ass at it.

I hate the big sit. Mobilizing for a race is one of my favorite things in this game.

We're just following the rules.

[Ihealyou]

http://thenewsouth.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/greensboro-sit-in.jpg

All they wanted was the right to sit.

[Aadill]

Oh man I was just discussing that today. Get out of my head!

[Alawen Everywhere]

The only mob that requires a real raid force is Vox brew. IB was the one bind rushing Vox and failing miserably. Maybe if you wouldn't talk so much shit and act like an ahole all the time, people wouldn't be forced to talk about these things?

Claiming mobs does not = raiding them

Keep pretending like IB is the only guild made up of old school raiders or something. I guess you need to grasp onto any little delusion you can that gives meaning to your shitty life. How's the ex wifey these days?

I'm not your "brew". I'm not your "dawg". I'm not into the ghetto thing at all. If you'd like to use a pronoun, feel free to call me "sir".

I have no problem with anyone talking about anything that's true. I take issue with outright lies.

I'm hesitant to do it because it's been amusing watch you guys talk shit based on bullshit, but here's a little surprise for you: I'm not divorced. I haven't filed for divorce. I'm not even legally separated. You obviously think you've got some great inside dirt, but it's just as incorrect and ineffective as everything else you post.

So how long you think your new forum account will last this time?

[Audacious93c]

Regardless of who started it, it needs to change. We are all losing friends to burn out and Im about done myself. Between the drama inside the guild and with IB; its enough to gouge my eyes out.

The problem that exists between the two guilds (IB / DA) concerning a rotation is that they are currently the only ones killing raid targets. (This is not including the most recent kill given to a third guild due to GM intervention between IB and DA over a dispute.) This is not to say that the two guilds are the only skilled guilds on the server. The current raid targets are by far easy enough for any guild that can muster 20 people to the target. Vox at least presents a challenge with the recent proper implementation of her CH.

The real challenge is getting those guild mates to leave their accounts on for days on end and be ready to be on call from the "bat phone" so they can meet role call / mob spawn. No other guilds are doing this besides DA and IB. This is why a majority of people in these two guilds are having such a discrepancy with including any other guild into a rotation. There are a few of us, that want to have some type of competition included within it so that other guilds at least have a shot at these mobs. But getting these two guilds to agree to go on a rotation where they will get a kill on Vox once every month isnt going to pass any big vote.

Everyone is looking to sky as the next big savior, but if its similar to the way its been described in rants and flames; then only those two guilds are going to be able to do it. Even then, its a doubt that even they can clear it. So I personally, am not expecting sky to be a miracle fix to this situation.

Free for all eventually works itself out and only presents a problem when a new guild comes about. It was done on Fennin Ro; I know because I was raiding then and there and it worked. Those that decide to be morally wrong and train would have to be banned on sight. Everyone would be running fraps just to prove who trained who. This would require a lot of work from guides that just arent getting paid for this. Dont expect this to happen. Without throwing words like care bear, WoW kiddie, casual player, etc. around there is just a small majority of people that wont agree to a free for all system because it doesnt suit them, or their schedule.

There is no easy fix to this situation, and someone will always be unhappy with whatever is decided. Auto-logging out or auto-afk'ing needs to be implemented and that will fix the first problem. Secondly; having a simulated server restart would give everyone a shot at getting a mob at some point. These two implementations would at least alleviate the current situation. Relief is all we need right? A shipment of MRE's with skittles sent to the front lines.

- Daidraco :rolleyes:

[spoolie]

daidracooooooooooooooooooooooo <3

[Phobius]

Quick newbie Q on this issue - when we are talking about camping Vox/Fear/etc... are all mobs in zone on same timer such that entire zone is camped or do the non-boss mobs respawn faster?

Put another way, are there pickup raids for the non-boss content because it respawns faster? Could a group head into one of these zones and kill some of the other stuff just to get a chance to see the content?

Also, do guilds allow others to join in fun if they don't roll on stuff and just want to tag along for the fun of the raid?


Thanks.

[Yoite]

you can kill trash in the planes whenever you want far as i know, the trash drops the armor.

trash repops on 8hour timer i think? or 12?

[rioisk]

1) Auto-logout is a nice idea after a certain time AFK (20-30 minutes?). This would make it so people can't AFK to keep the required 15 in zone to call raid targets. It would also have a side benefit of people not being able to AFK camp named mobs (fishbone earring *cough*)

2) Simulated patch days once a week for an all-pop would be VERY nice solution. This would make it so guilds would know exactly when to expect pops and they can race to the spawn points. This does, unfortunately, benefit large guilds who can go after multiple targets at once and will likely cause problem with multiple guilds camping out at certain spawn points.

3) Rotation system will not work, the 24-hour a day no-jobers won't agree. They need their EQ fix.


I think the real problem is lack of content in general.

[G13]

You, me and the rest of both of our guilds know you started the big sit. Last week was just the first week we kicked your ass at it.

I hate the big sit. Mobilizing for a race is one of my favorite things in this game.

Obviously you're still clueless how the chess game is being played

[Skope]

I don't understand why people are complaining about the current state of raiding -- at least those of you in IB/DA -- but won't push for an FFA with a small rule set, like no stealing mobs, no training and first to engage gets the first shot. It would solve a LOT of the inherent problems within the current rules yet still allow those who are dedicated to do just as well as they have been doing thus far (hell, even better actually). Instead it's been about 10 pages of bickering and flaming and finger-pointing with no solutions. As i said before, i'm tired of having my friends list shortened because of a stubborn few and watching dirtbags join and drop just so you can keep up your numbers.

[Deric]

If people want to sit at a location for days on end to get their pixels you won't be able to stop them. I'm surprised there has been no amendment to the rules that would allow for multiple raid forces to camp and simply have them /random if mob pops between those present.

If anything this would detour guilds from camping(for the full 5 days) as they would not be guaranteed the mob regardless of how long they sit there.

[Alawen Everywhere]

I don't understand why people are complaining about the current state of raiding -- at least those of you in IB/DA -- but won't push for an FFA with a small rule set, like no stealing mobs, no training and first to engage gets the first shot. It would solve a LOT of the inherent problems within the current rules yet still allow those who are dedicated to do just as well as they have been doing thus far (hell, even better actually). Instead it's been about 10 pages of bickering and flaming and finger-pointing with no solutions. As i said before, i'm tired of having my friends list shortened because of a stubborn few and watching dirtbags join and drop just so you can keep up your numbers.

To the best of my knowledge, IB has wanted FFA since before I started playing on the server. It's my understanding that the staff wants a more structured situation, but that's from hearsay and rumors; I've never communicated directly with any member of the staff about it.

[astarothel]

1) Auto-logout is a nice idea after a certain time AFK (20-30 minutes?). This would make it so people can't AFK to keep the required 15 in zone to call raid targets. It would also have a side benefit of people not being able to AFK camp named mobs (fishbone earring *cough*)

Yeah. No. If I am camping a mob that has a 22 minute timer, I will not be tabbed in for 21 of those 22 minutes. Gonna have to be way longer than standard repop times there, broski.

[Otto]

To the best of my knowledge, IB has wanted FFA since before I started playing on the server. It's my understanding that the staff wants a more structured situation, but that's from hearsay and rumors; I've never communicated directly with any member of the staff about it.

All true, but it is not hearsay and rumors.

Wenai and Aeolwind have specifically stated that the FFA kind of raid environment will not exist here. To the boards as well as myself

[Kinamur1999]

Yeah. No. If I am camping a mob that has a 22 minute timer, I will not be tabbed in for 21 of those 22 minutes. Gonna have to be way longer than standard repop times there, broski.


Tabbed in okay, but completely afk i have to disagree with.

Your character being online doesn't mean dick to me, if 10 of your 15 force has been afk at work for the past 8 hours thats not part of your 15 imo. Thats bullshit.

How can you claim that you have a 15 player force ready for the boss when it pops when you really only have 5. I'm sorry if people feel they deserve a mob for being logged in for most of the timer but if you aren't there, how the fuck can you claim it?

[Skope]

Just a few rules implemented so there's no real bad blood between guilds and it doesn't get out of hand, something like I stated before:

No trains
No Stealing of pulls/mobs
First to engage gets a shot without outside interference.

Should allow for guilds to clear/camp/track or whatever strategy they would like but still enough as to keep them from getting at each others' throats because of accusations of unfair play.

[Aadill]

Tabbed in okay, but completely afk i have to disagree with.

Your character being online doesn't mean dick to me, if 10 of your 15 force has been afk at work for the past 8 hours thats not part of your 15 imo. Thats bullshit.

How can you claim that you have a 15 player force ready for the boss when it pops when you really only have 5. I'm sorry if people feel they deserve a mob for being logged in for most of the timer but if you aren't there, how the fuck can you claim it?

This is a presumptuous post.

[Kinamur1999]

If people are legit sitting at their pc for 3 days straight then good job they deserve it, but somehow i doubt it.

Sleeping for 8 hours logged in does NOT mean you're camping dick, in my book.

Yes, I think you should have to be at your screen waiting for the pop to claim camping. That's how I did manastone for 20+hours straight, i didn't sleep for half of it and have a friend text me when it dropped so I could loot.

Pretty sure I've read a post or 2 about people sleeping while "camping" or even going to work. Its bullshit, In my opinion, if thats how the devs want it to happen then awesome good job.

[Pyrocat]

Pretty sure I've read a post or 2 about people sleeping while "camping" or even going to work. Its bullshit, In my opinion, if thats how the devs want it to happen then awesome good job.

If you're going to sit at an 8 hour camp, you shouldn't be expected to be non-AFK that entire time. That's ridiculous.

1) Auto-logout is a nice idea after a certain time AFK (20-30 minutes?). This would make it so people can't AFK to keep the required 15 in zone to call raid targets. It would also have a side benefit of people not being able to AFK camp named mobs (fishbone earring *cough*)


No, it will just make it so that everyone installs an AutoHotKey script with random intervals and movements.

[Kinamur1999]

If you're going to sit at an 8 hour camp, you shouldn't be expected to be non-AFK that entire time. That's ridiculous..

an AFK here or there isnt a problem but when you have people going afk for the Majority of the respawn, say 6 hours of hadden, its bullshit.

If you don't want to be at the screen for 8 hours show up early, if someone else beat you to it and is actually at the screen guess what they deserve it more than you for wanting to sit afk for hours of the camp.

I honestly don't know how a person can feel they deserve the camp when they don't actually camp it.

[rioisk]

You are right pyro, people will just install a macro. I guess this wouldn't work unless GMs sent random tells and banned people if they somehow stayed in game and "moving" enough to not get logged out. Of course this won't happen though.

I too think that people should be at their keyboard for the full duration in order to claim raid mobs. If a whole guild sits at their screens for 8hrs+ they deserve what they get.

[rioisk]

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9999/funnya.jpg

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5049/reducedu.jpg

this is the reality of raiding in P1999 atm.

[Imsetta]

If you're going to sit at an 8 hour camp, you shouldn't be expected to be non-AFK that entire time. That's ridiculous.

Im sorry Pyrocat but this is a MMORPG (standing for massive multi player role playing game) in this circumstance we are talking about the Role playing part. In anything you do in real life you have to stay doing it the full time you are doing it, on the game it is the same way. If you are afk, you are not doing anything! This includes holding a camp. Example: I want to get a new xbox when it first comes out. I have to stand out side of the store for days to be able to get a chance to get one before they are sold out. I don't have a choice to go to work and still have my body sit at the store and wait, or go afk and do anything else. Yes I can sleep, but in the event I over sleep and the store opens everyone else walks past me and I loss my xbox. The game is an extension or my real life body, when I play the game it is me. If I go afk while playing, my character can not be counted as holding anything or doing anything, it is as if im not there. I do expect you to be at the screen the full time you play your character, and everyone else should expect it too.

Lanys T`Vyl

[Thorjorkill]

Its a bummer but i see IB alts all the time sitting around while some large beasty heals them.

Ah well. We all know that raid mobs are on lockdown while the big three (typically two) are on alts with IP exemptions. They are technically not boxing, but locking down raid encounters like this sucks.

I myself think its outside the spirit of the rules of the no boxing policy , but whatever.

[Thorjorkill]

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9999/funnya.jpg

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/5049/reducedu.jpg

this is the reality of raiding in P1999 atm.

As an addendum to my previous post, this is just sad.

Get the calendar out devs, and start the lottery on time slots. Your guild misses the slot they are given, then the next one has an opportunity to step up. 48 hours notice has to be given one way or another, or else you lose your slot.
This will be an unpopular solution, but the system in place is horseshit. (I said something like this about a secretaries filing system once, and turns out she got pissed - but, its turns out I was right.)

I'll set it up if needed, just let me know.

[astarothel]

Its a bummer but i see IB alts all the time sitting around while some large beasty heals them.

Ah well. We all know that raid mobs are on lockdown while the big three (typically two) are on alts with IP exemptions. They are technically not boxing, but locking down raid encounters like this sucks.

I myself think its outside the spirit of the rules of the no boxing policy , but whatever.

Because all of a sudden when the campfest began Nilbog suddenly noticed every raiding guild member sending in exemptions right? Because that wouldn't be at all suspicious at any time before, let alone then? Carry on...

[Taxi]

Because all of a sudden when the campfest began Nilbog suddenly noticed every raiding guild member sending in exemptions right? Because that wouldn't be at all suspicious at any time before, let alone then? Carry on...

Right so if someone is 2boxing, he only thought about this when he got to raiding... I got a router here and 2 boxes... but i decided to play fair. Wether or not people are 2boxing, this perma-lockdown setup is a problem.

Since removing IP exemptions doesnt seem realistic, why not, for the 4th time, let guilds kill a raid mob or a 25+ named mob once, then they have to pass the next kill to someone next in line that isnt of the same tag.

But then, someone can just drop from guild and guild still is perma-locking the best mobs by passing kill rights to unguilded guildy... I vote for FFA.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Its a bummer but i see IB alts all the time sitting around while some large beasty heals them.

Ah well. We all know that raid mobs are on lockdown while the big three (typically two) are on alts with IP exemptions. They are technically not boxing, but locking down raid encounters like this sucks.

I myself think its outside the spirit of the rules of the no boxing policy , but whatever.

Two boxing is against the server rules and against IB guild rules. If you are aware of IB alts online concurrently with their main, please report their names to whoever you see fit--GMs, this forum, our officers, even me. Two boxing is cheating and I don't abide with cheating. I do not personally have any IP exemptions and I don't share account information with anyone.

If you're just talking shit to talk shit, whatever.

[Loke]

i'm tired of having my friends list shortened because of a stubborn few...

This part of your post is ridiculous. Not you saying it, but the fact that there are people in the game that would willingly lose a friend over this shit... not naming names.

[bullet]

I cant wait for this server to blow up.

Stupid n00bs ruining your own game, roflmao.

[astarothel]

I cant wait for this server to blow up.

Stupid n00bs ruining your own game, roflmao.

Sup jealous anontroll #25223632434

[rioisk]

I don't think the devs anticipated this sort of explosive growth in population/lack of content/lvl 50s. Classic did not have a large portion of the population at lvl 50.

I think the devs need to do something soon or risk losing a lot of players over time.

[Yoite]

or yall could just roll alts or do something else for a bit, jesus its like the sky is falling and the server is doomed just around the corner every week...but its not.

[Alawen Everywhere]

I think this project is extremely popular and most people are having a really good time. I think the handful of bitter losers with anonymous forum accounts don't speak for anyone but themselves. I think the devs are doing a great job and the server will continue to prosper if they just keep on keepin' on.

That's what I think.

[Safon]

Wouldn't the server be better off if the feuding raid obsessed players at the top left? What would the server lose with their exodus?

[Akame]

Wouldn't the server be better off if the feuding raid obsessed players at the top left? What would the server lose with their exodus?

There would be no one for the unwashed masses to anonymously poke fun at.