Torchlight 2 - The Right Way

[stormlord]

I just wanted to make a thread about Torchlight 2.

Lately I been reading a lot about Diablo 3. What I'm reading is painting a sad story of how acti-blizzard is chopping up the series and trying to transform it into a quasi WoW-esque AH-dominated mess. I don't know how it all happened, but it's tremendously terrible news for anybody that liked the Diablo series.

I was a fan of Diablo 1/2 and like the rogue-like feel they have. The likeness to a rogue-like is a call back to Hack and Nethack or other old and new variants on this special sub-genre. But unlike many of these other rogue-likes, Diablo 1/2, particularly, are easier to get into. For one, they don't use ASCI graphics. It's visual splendor, by comparison. And another, they don't have quite as many details to swamp someone. Nethack was massive on details and required a lot of time to adjust to it. And another point is that traditional rogue-likes would have perma-death. This wasn't something that was enforced in the Diablo series, but it was offered as an option in Diablo 2. There're probably other things too. Some people think this qualifies them as not being rogue-like. Somebody could probably write half a book on this one topic. But I'll suffice to say that they bare enough in common with rogue-likes that it's not worth spilling milk over and crying. It's close enough.

Aside from their roots, Diablo 1/2, like other pick-up-and-go action rpgs, are great for someone that doesn't have the time or interest in a full-scale persistent world like an MMORPG. Yet, they still have enough depth to hold you for some time. This applies to anybody - hardcore or casual or soft or carebear. That's the beauty of Diablo 1/2. And better yet they only required a one-time fee for the box. No monthly fees!

But there's no Diablo 3 to continue the series. Per say....

That's until Torchlight was released in October 2009. This was when we see a glimmer of hope. Co-designers who had worked with Diablo 1/2 got together with others and produced this gem. It had no multiplayer capability, but its resemblance to the Diablo series was unmistakeable. It got high reviews and even won an award (or more?). However, it received harsh complaints about its lack of multiplayer.

Fast forward to September 2012. Torchlight 2 is released.

Here is the answer to those looking for what was lost in Diablo 3.

Torchlight 2:
http://www.torchlight2game.com/about

There're so many good things to say. I'll start by saying that this is a fully digital-download game. You can't buy it in a box. However, this mean the price comes down to $20 rather than $60. They're able to pull a profit without having the middle-man trumpeting the powers of the box and they're gracious enough to hand the profits over to the consumer. Furthermore, they're allowing their players to MOD the game!

If you liked Diablo 1/2, give these people your business and show your appreciation.

[Bamzal Sherbet]

dude go play path of exile for free. its considered diablo 2.5 and the skill tree is more like a skill galaxy

[stormlord]

Path of Exile is a great game too. But I'm not going to spoil this thread by talking about another game. Others can make up their own mind. Torchlight 2 is deserving of some attention, regardless.

[Breeziyo]

TL2 and PoE are both amazing, and I play both.

I have yet to beat TL2, though. My friends always quit before we get passed act 2 or can't decide on a difficulty.

[stormlord]

Here's some trivia:
The same (music) composer that worked on Diablo 2 also worked on Torchlight 2.

Also here're the (very friendly) system requirements for Torchlight 2:
System Requirements
OS: Windows XP SP3/Vista/Windows 7
Processor: x86-compatible 1.4GHz or faster processor
Memory: 1GB System RAM
Hard Disk Space: 1.2GB free space (subject to change)
Video Card: DirectX compatible 3D graphics card with at least 256MB of addressable memory.
DirectX®: 9.0c

The art-style in Torchlight 1/2 reminds me of WoW somewhat in its first release. Could this be because Torchlight 1/2 has Blizzard North working on it? Some people think this is one of its worst choices. But I don't think it matters. Quite remarkably, one of the reasons WoW had such popularity early on was its low system requirements. One of stated goals of Blizzard North when working on Torchlight 1/2 was to keep its system requirements very low to increase the size of their audience. They did this without using shaders.

One can explore in much more depth how they went about the art in Torchlight 1/2 here:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4123/from_the_ashes_of_mythos_the_art_.php?print=1
...........
Gameplay similarities aside, the art controversy surrounding the announcement of D3 was somewhat fascinating to me and, in a small way, contributed towards Torchlight's look. My reaction to the first screenshots was that Blizzard had created a beautiful, living painting. To me, it was absolutely gorgeous, and a style that I would have loved to have pursued.

But knowing the direction Blizzard went with the game helped inform our decision to go in a different direction. We didn't want the inevitable comparisons, so in a way... it helped us define which artistic choices were now off limits.
...........

[Dullah]

TL2 better than D3, but that doesn't say much. Storyline was even more horrible than d3 if thats possible, but I did enjoy the combat more.

[Loli Pops]

TL2 > D3. Though I don't feel like playing it any more after beating it.

[SamwiseRed]

D2>D2 LOD>D3

[Graahle]

D2>D2 LOD>D3

D2LoDv1.09>all. FTFY bud.

[SamwiseRed]

runewords too OP. every class shouldnt have TP. i like how rares were best in slot, for the most part, in classic. and most rares were different so not every character looked the same. in LoD there is pretty much a unique/runeword that is best in slot. made everyone the same :( also runewards are OP in pvp. errrbody in this bitch TPing with nigma.

[gotrocks]

Oh shit. my comp can run TL2. Downloading it right fucking now.

Thanks for this thread!! i had no idea! loved tl1 a lot.

[stormlord]

Torchligh 2 comes with a in-built console for modding/cheating/etc:
http://www.gamefront.com/torchlight-2-dev-console-commands/
Runic Games didn’t just fill their hack-n-slash RPG Torchlight 2 with easter eggs, they also enabled a developed console to encourage modders. While the dev console makes testing modifications easier, it’s also a great resource just to screw around with and have fun. There’s God Mode, cheats to set your level, cheats to set your pet’s level, and a cheat that will spawn every item in the game. Go wild with the full list of Torchlight 2 Developer Console Commands below.
...........

[gotrocks]

^^^ love companies that do that.

runic games definitely scored *major* points for both torchlights in my book.

[stormlord]

Folks, I think this settles it. For me.

Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Diablo-III-Standard-Edition-Pc/dp/B00178630A

2/5 stars on amazon. 3112 reviews. That's bad, people.

And this:
http://www.gamespot.com/diablo-iii/user-reviews/post/platform/pc/
Diablo 3 - User Score: 7.2 (3840)
http://www.gamespot.com/torchlight-ii/user-reviews/post/platform/pc/
Torchlight 2 - User Score: 8.6 (777)

Hell, I'll just keep going:
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/diablo-iii
Diablo 3 - User Score: 3.8 (7861 ratings)
http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/torchlight-ii
Torchlight 2 - User Score: 8.8 (1210 ratings)

In almost every way, the initial industry reviews were equal. But the user scores ARE NOT. What this tells me is the initial feeling in the industry was positive, but things didn't work out for Diablo 3.

Know what I think happened? They tried to remake Diablo 3 into an MMORPG-hybrid. They wanted to take their experience with WoW and apply it to Diablo 3. Don't ask me why. Then they added the AH. Honestly, I don't know if it would have made any difference if they hadn't added the AH. Even when Diablo 2 was mainstream there were a lot of players buying items and characters through 3rd parties, but it wasn't something that was officially supported. Now that Diablo 3 officially supports buying things in-game, I think it has not only infected its development but the players themselves now feel they have to buy things to have fun. But whether this explains the discrepancy between industry and user reviews, I can't begin to say. Again, the whole meddling in the formula to Wowify it may have played just as much a role in the unimpressive user reviews.

Of course, I don't think Diablo 3 is shutting its doors. But I think this moment in history will be remembered by many as the moment in time when they could no longer trust acti-blizzard. These people will go elsewhere and play other games, like Path of Exile or Torchlight 2 or Grim Drawn. They'll take their $$$ with them.

[gotrocks]

You know what though, IGN was talking about this a while back after d3 released. they were talking about all the people who were hitting 60, realizing the end game wasn't at all like d2, and quitting. Obviously these people gave D3 lower-than-average scores. They were also *very* vocal about their disappointment.

Thing is, most of these people that were complaining about D3 not being good enough (mostly because of the length and 'lack of things to do') were getting MINIMUM 100+ hours out of their games before they were walking away. Now, if this were any other game, by any other company, people would most definitely have a different attitude about that. But because D2 was *so* good, lasted *so* long, and had *so* many players, d3 got absolutely bashed about a month or so in because it just didnt stack up to its predecessor.

And honestly, I didn't think that it would. D2 was amazing, incredible. it captured something i think few, if any games, have been able to capture. and a lot of it happened by accident. Blizzard didn't really intend for people to start running chaos sanctuary over and over and over to hit their 80's and 90's in hell, or the cow level before that was nerfed, or the throne in LoD (well, that one was probably intentional). It just sort of happened that way (likely during playtesting). They stumbled across this absolutely immaculate formula that i very much doubt anyone will be able to replicate so perfectly anytime soon. Games like torchlight and (so im told) PoE come close, but i still feel like they aren't that d2 magic.

that being said, I really don't think d3 deserves the low consumer scores its receiving. Most of the major review sites gave it an outstanding rating, there were lots of 9/10's. It was definitely a great game. I don't think anyone can be honest with themselves and say it isnt. But the bottom line is it wasn't what we all were expecting. it wasn't that endless blizzard magic everyone wanted (some have blamed jay wilson for this... i think thats a little unfair, but may be true) so badly to have. i firmly believe anytime you can sink 100+ hrs into a game and get mad that there isnt *more game*, you have a great game on your hands. its just in this case, it wasn't the game we all wanted.

D3 was definitely not shit. it just wasn't the shit we wanted (have i said thsi enough times? lol)

[stormlord]

Gotrocks, I don't want to hate Diablo 3. I know for a fact millions of people bought it and there're probably hundreds of thousands playing it online. But, for me at least, it's not a Diablo game...

Thus the reason for this thread.

Torchlight 2 also sold at least a million units. You can play it offline. Its graphics aren't as shiny as Diablo 3, but they're at least artistically unique. It has no physics like Diablo 3, but it has a fully realized random environment; everything from outdoor swamps and forests to tombs and caves. Point is, both these games are good, but some people, including me, will pick one over another. I'm here to point the way forward for those who might feel similarly to me but are confused. In fact, a week ago I would not have known anything about Torchlight 2. It was only because I recently learned about it that I know what I know now. So I see a reason to say something about this game and get the word out so people won't be lost like I was.

Only thing that I can see tarnishing Runic Games and their Torchlight 2 is if they abandon it in favor of a full-scale MMO. They have, in hte past, expressed an interest. I hope not because supporting a game of this nature requires a lot of investment of time and money. They will need to either focus on an expansion or a sequel. If they let it all drop and chase after MMO stardom, it could ruin what they have.

I like this quote:
You can be as smart and brilliant as you like, but never let your abmitions grow bigger than your heart.

[stormlord]

runewords too OP. every class shouldnt have TP. i like how rares were best in slot, for the most part, in classic. and most rares were different so not every character looked the same. in LoD there is pretty much a unique/runeword that is best in slot. made everyone the same :( also runewards are OP in pvp. errrbody in this bitch TPing with nigma.
I get your drift. I hate it too when games push us all to wear the same stuff. It's boring to know that your handiwork produces the same result as others. The thing with diablo 1/2 is that they have an elaborate random loot system. Just as how all of the environments are generally randomized too. The intent I suppose is to keep things fresh. It could also be seen as a way to discourage players from camping the same thing. This is somethign most rogue-like games have. However, it's not whether items are random or not that prevents everyone from being the same. What prevents that is having diverse gameplay. If the gameplay is diverse then a player can solve problems in multiple ways using multiple skills and/or stats to achieve a similar end.

Once thigns can be solved multiple ways you just add skills/stats/items on top of it.

One of the cool things about Diablo is how we use corridors and doorways and corners to limit a crowd of monsters so they're not all hitting you at once or trapping you. Or how we might use knockback. Or how we use spells like fire wall to kill lots of baddies at once. These kidns of things should be just the beginning of all the things we can do. This is what makes a good game. If the game is so simple that all we have to do is click a monster and it's dead and nothing more than the game is so utterly pointless. On a similar level, if the only thing that's deep is the experience bar then the game has failed for hte same reason. Ad nauseam.

I believe Diablo 1/2 just barely have scratched the surface of all this. It goes much deeper.

This is really where fun games come from. So it's very important.

Btw, I'm playing Diablo 1 single player as a way to review how the gameplay worked.

This is a nice read:
http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Bolty%27s_High_Level_Warrior_Guide

[MrSparkle001]

As much as I don't want to say it, Torchlight 2's graphics really turn me off. I know graphics do not make the game, but those graphics are worse than WoW's and I hate WoW's cartoonish style.

I actually prefer games that try to look realistic or serious but look primitive, like Diablo 2, to games that just say "fuck it" and try to look like a Saturday morning cartoon.

I may still look into this game though. I loved Diablo 2 and was seriously underwhelmed by the Diablo 3 beta and never bought it.