GM Rule book from Kunark/ Velious - Limited CS Zones

[Vandy]

Kunark Era GM Guide book

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4jUmfLZ0VsQJ:na_koa.tripod.com/stories/PandP0600.rtf+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

5.6 Customer Service Limited Zones

Some zones in EQ have been designed with extreme rewards and risks. Because of design and tuning issues, Customer Service intervention in these zones is restricted.

5.6.1 List of Customer Service Limited Zones

The Plane of Fear (fearplane)
The Plane of Hate (hateplane)
The Plane of Sky (airplane)
Veeshan's Peak (veeshan)


Velious Era GM Guide book

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:mwa1WUHD2x4J:membres.multimania.fr/nesousxlanonyme/Guide.doc+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShagfmo70G4Hr3AWsFpKz9hdXLtEnHCAv93fSB8 4bCEJWNq-hnaRnApYQCkHRflbQBNkhZtHNtPY9raKH_g6vktUWMPandZ1DE gOgEPM-_mNCNx0DVtsBWTWgw-TSplHi-l1kdR&sig=AHIEtbQg2wE_u2AbJw53D8lcWnuWktzBhg


5.6 Customer Service Limited Zones
Some zones in EQ have been designed with extreme rewards and risks. Because of design and tuning issues, Customer Service intervention in these zones is restricted.

5.6.1 List of Customer Service Limited Zones
Sleeper (sleeper)
Temple of Veeshan (templeveeshan)
The Plane of Fear (fearplane)
The Plane of Growth (growthplane)
The Plane of Hate (hateplane)
The Plane of Mischief (mischiefplane)
The Plane of Sky (airplane)
Veeshan’s Peak (veeshan)

[Ele]

Might as well list what they can and can't do. Exception Incidents (Section 8, as identified in the Velious edition) covers a lot of stuff.


8. Exception Incidents

8.1 Abuse

8.1.1 Abuse is defined as any activity that is exercised with the intent of disrupting the over all
play environment of one or more players.

8.1.1.1 Things that are Abuse:
.
• Hate Mongering – participation in or propagation of Hate literature, behavior, or propaganda
related to real –world characteristics.
• Sexual Abuse or Harassment – untoward and unwelcome advances of a graphic and sexual
nature. This includes virtual rape, overt sexual overtures, and stalking of a sexual nature.
• Attempting to Defraud a CS Representative - Petitioning with untrue information with the
intention of receiving benefits as a result. This includes reporting bug deaths, experience or
item loss, or accusing other players of wrongdoing without basis for it.
• Impersonating a Customer Service Representative – falsely representing yourself to another
player as a Guide or a SOE employee.
• CS Personnel Abuse -- sending excessive /tells to a CS Representative, excessively using
say or other channels to communicate to a CS Representative, making physical threats, or
using abusive language against a CS Representative.
• Using Threats of Retribution by GM Friends – attempting to convince another player that they
have no recourse in a disagreement because favoritism is shown to one of the parties by the
SOE or Guide staff.
• Fraud - falsely representing one’s intentions to make a gain at another’s expense
• Ninja-looting - when a player, disregarding the players or player who killed a mob, loots an
item that is generally regarded as significant or valuable from the mob they did not kill.

...

8.2 Disruption

8.2.1 Disruption is defined as any activity that is disruptive to the game play of others, though
not necessarily with the intent to do so. Disruption has been sub-categorized into major and
minor types.

8.2.1.1 Examples of Minor Disruption:

Non-Fantasy Names – Names that are not appropriate for the fantasy genre of EverQuest
Excessive Spam – Continued overuse of /ooc, /shout, or /auction over time such that many
players complain
Offensive Names – Names that are profanity in some form, including homonyms and anagrams
Kill Stealing – The killing of a mob for any reason that is already aggravated onto another player.

8.2.1.2 Examples of Major Disruption:

Foul Language – excessive use of foul language in an inappropriate context, including swear
words, real–world racial slurs, and other language that is not consistent with the fantasy
environment and designed to hurt.
Harassment – targeting another player, or group of players, to harm or inconvenience them
Zone/Area Disruption – monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area rather than stealing from
a specific player or group of players, deliberately blocking a doorway or narrow area so other
players can’t get past, refusing to cooperate with the other parties at a contested spawn site after
having been instructed to do so by a CS Representative

...

8.5 Exploitation

8.5.1 Exploitation is defined as abusing weaknesses in the game system to the advantage of
one or more players with the intention of profiting from them in some manner.

8.5.2 Examples of Exploitation:
• Duping – creation of money or items from nothing.
• Farming – using broken spells or spell effects to kill monsters, thus gaining experience from
them.
• Safe Zones – using areas of bad data in the game that have monsters behaving erratically
(such as running in place, running around, standing still, or any other behavior that has the
monster not defending itself) to kill said monsters with minimal danger to the attacker.
• Price Gouging – finding items that have anomalous pricing and abusing them, such as items
that sell for more than they cost to buy.
• PvP Switch Avoidance – Using in-game methods to work around the PvP switch and allowing
non-PvP players to kill other players, such as hall blocking, dumping of monsters, or spell
effects that cross that boundary due to a bug.

8.5.3 Things that are not Exploitation:
• Twinking – giving money or items from one character to another is not an exploitation, unless
the money is derived from one of the above activities. This activity will exist and is not
controllable by any reasonable means
• Camping – sitting in one spot to await the spawn of a monster or item.
• Slumming – hanging around in lower level areas and killing monsters there.

Kunark Era:

5.6.2 Acceptable CSRep Presence in Customer Service Limited Zones

The presence of Customer Service Representatives in Customer Service Limited Zones creates two undesired situations. First, players are more likely to ask for assistance in gameplay issues from the CS staff if a CS Rep is in the zone. Second, players are more likely to blame CS Representatives for any inconvenience they may experience if a CS Rep is in the zone. For these reasons mentioned above CS Reps must not be in Customer Service Limited Zones except under the following conditions:

They are investigating a possible Exception Incident (Abuse, Disruption, or Exploitation) at the request of a player.
They are investigating a possible bug at the request of a player for documentation purposes.
They are removing a corpse from an object such as the ground, a wall, a tree, etc. according to Corpse Recovery Procedure (See 7.3 Corpse Recovery)
They are unsticking a player stuck on the geometry (in an object, in a wall, etc). The player should be moved the minimum amount of distance necessary to unstick them from the geometry.
They are summoning a corpse from a verified inaccessible area listed in 5.6.2.1 to a position of the player's choice within the zone.
They are summoning a player from a verified inaccessible area listed in 5.6.2.1 in the Customer Service Limited Zone to a non-PvP area of Arena and then back to either the zone-in point of the Customer Service Limited Zone or to another player of the player's choice in the Customer Service Limited Zone.
They are following Policy and Procedures concerning an Under the World Case. (See 7.13)


5.6.2.1 Inaccessible Areas in Customer Service Limited Zones

Currently the only verified inaccessible are in a CS Limited zone is caused through an anomaly that often occurs when a player has gone linkdead in the Plane of Hate. When this anomaly happens a player can become stuck in an inaccessible area of the second floor of the Plane of Hate. As mobs can also sometimes become stuck in the area, players can also die here. This area can be verified by using the /loc command. The z coordinate of this area is approximately 110.

5.6.2.1.1 Retrieving Players in Inaccessible Areas of Customer Service Limited Zones

A player character in an inaccessible area of a Customer Service Limited Zone can inadvertently become added to the hate-lists of mobs in the zone. Therefore, to retrieve players from these areas without indirectly causing the deaths of players the following procedure should be followed:

Confirm that the Player Character is in an inaccessible area of a Customer Service Limited Zone (see 5.6.2.1)
Summon the player to the zone named Arena
Summon the player to a player character of their choice in the zone in which they were stuck, to a Player zone-in point of the zone in which they were stuck, or to the Customer Service /zone-in point.


5.6.2.1.2 Corpse Recoveries in Inaccessible Areas of Customer Service Limited Zones

If a player has a corpse stuck in the inaccessible area of a Customer Service Limited Zone, summon the corpse to a player of their choice who is in the zone or to any other location of their choice in the zone.

Velious Era:

5.6 Customer Service Limited Zones

Some zones in EQ have been designed with extreme rewards and risks. Because of design and
tuning issues, Customer Service intervention in these zones is restricted.

5.6.1 List of Customer Service Limited Zones

Sleeper (sleeper)
Temple of Veeshan (templeveeshan)
The Plane of Fear (fearplane)
The Plane of Growth (growthplane)
The Plane of Hate (hateplane)
The Plane of Mischief (mischiefplane)
The Plane of Sky (airplane)
Veeshan’s Peak (veeshan)



5.6.2 Acceptable CSRep Presence in Customer Service Limited Zones

The presence of Customer Service Representatives in Customer Service Limited Zones creates
two undesired situations. First, players are more likely to ask for assistance in gameplay issues
from the CS staff if a CS Rep is in the zone. Second, players are more likely to blame CS
Representatives for any inconvenience they may experience if a CS Rep is in the zone. For these
reasons mentioned above CS Reps must not be in Customer Service Limited Zones except under
the following conditions:
• They are investigating a possible Exception Incident (Abuse, Disruption, or Exploitation)
at the request of a player.
• They are investigating a possible bug at the request of a player for documentation
purposes.
• They are removing a corpse from an object such as the ground, a wall, a tree, etc.
according to Corpse Recovery Procedure (See 7.3 Corpse Recovery)
• They are unsticking a player stuck on the geometry (in an object, in a wall, etc). The
player should be moved the minimum amount of distance necessary to unstick them from
the geometry.
• They are following Policy and Procedures concerning an Under the World Case. (See
7.13)
• CS Representatives may travel to CS Limited zones to assist players with binding death
loops (refer to 7.2.2).

5.6.3 General Customer Service Limited Zone Policies

5.6.3.1 Exploring and Adventuring

CSReps should not use their CS characters to explore Customer Service Limited Zones. If a
CSRep is in one of these zones for a reason approved above (see 5.6.2), they should leave
immediately after addressing the issue they are there for and should not stay in the zone any
longer than necessary.

5.6.3.2 Reporting CS Actions Taken in Customer Service Limited Zones

A GM+ should report any action they take in a Customer Service Limited Zone to their direct
superior. Senior Guides should report any action they take in a Customer Service Limited Zone
to the rest of the Server Management Team, including the GM of the server or the Lead GM of
the server if the server is not currently assigned a GM, and include a detailed account of any
Customer Service action taken in a Customer Service Limited Zone on their server in the server’s weekly server report. Any Full Guide or Apprentice Guide who takes Customer Service action in a
Customer Service Limited Zone should report a detailed account of it in their Daily Status Report
and/or in a designated section of their server board.

5.6.3.3 Resurrections in Customer Service Limited Zones

CSReps are not to provide resurrections in Customer Service Limited Zones under any
circumstances without specific authorization from a GM+ as directed by SOE Management.

5.6.3.4 /Kill Restraint in Customer Service Limited Zones

The killing of any mob in Customer Service Limited Zones (see 5.6.1) is considered to cause
a significant change in game play. Therefore CS Reps should not /kill in these zones without
specific authorization from a GM+ as directed by SOE Management. (This Policy can also be
found at 7.10.7.6)

[Captain Faceplant]

Interesting that "training" appears nowhere in there. Since it's obviously a huge CS issue in EQ, it must have been left out for a reason. I mean, "sexual harassment" is still in there.

[Splorf22]

Zone/Area Disruption – monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area rather than stealing from a specific player or group of players, deliberately blocking a doorway or narrow area so other players can’t get past, refusing to cooperate with the other parties at a contested spawn site after having been instructed to do so by a CS Representative

[Danth]

Training wouldn't have to be in there; it falls under disruption.

My experience with Sony Guides and GMs was that they applied the rules in an extremely inconsistent manner to the extent that the published rules were almost useless anyway.

I'm glad P1999's rules are a little different. The P1999 player base, by and large, feels generally a bit more aggressive and less willing to work with each other than that of EQ-live. The rules therefore ought to be a bit tighter. I suspect it's a symptom of the smaller server population (on live, ~30-50 people in a popular dungeon was the norm, so folks got accustomed to sharing right from the start).

Danth

[Enygma]

Training wouldn't have to be in there; it falls under disruption.

My experience with Sony Guides and GMs was that they applied the rules in an extremely inconsistent manner to the extent that the published rules were almost useless anyway.

I'm glad P1999's rules are a little different. The P1999 player base, by and large, feels generally a bit more aggressive and less willing to work with each other than that of EQ-live. The rules therefore ought to be a bit tighter. I suspect it's a symptom of the smaller server population (on live, ~30-50 people in a popular dungeon was the norm, so folks got accustomed to sharing right from the start).

Danth

It's because the same expansion has been out for over two (2) years leaving very little content for the entire server who is outgrowing the current system. On live it would take people FOREVER to get level 60 where as here most people who played hardcore got it within a couple weeks.

Now that it has been out FOREVER... every end game camp is constantly on lock down and EVERY raid encounter is contested.

[Splorf22]

A bit part of the problem with 1999 is everyone wanted to relive their something they did 10 years ago, but, and this is the key point, just a bit better. The people that just got to 40 wanted to be 60 and explore some new zones. The people that got 60 and were in casual raid guilds wanted to be the hardcore badasses with all the pixels they never got to have. The people that were in hardcore raid guilds usually didn't come back as they had already beaten the game the first time around. I met a new Ranger today (low 20s or something), and what did he say "Oh yeah, I played on live, gonna be 60 in a few months".

Plus content is released more slowly (we'll probably have 2-3 years of Kunark on this server, compared to 8-9 months on Live). I'm not blaming Nilbog here, but it's a fact. In addition we don't have any AAs in classic to waste people's time.

Finally everyone knows all the strats exactly. So the epic quests are released and we have someone finish a rogue epic within like 24 hours instead of weeks. I've read the text for stuff like the warrior epic (give me 4 gems, and if you give me the wrong ones you're fucked). It would have taken months just to figure stuff out. And that effect just snowballs, because when your group has two epic rogues and monks and an enchanter with stacked charisma and a pet with tash/malo and so on your xp rate is pretty good, even in the Kunark levels.

Put those three things together and suddenly you have a server where the hardcore players have 2-3 max level max geared chars (hell, I have two. Zeelot has an epic SK and an epic SK alt) and even the 'casual' players have some char 50+. So suddenly we have a server with a world designed for players spread out over all levels where a huge fraction of the population is close to max level. So everyone follows their biological programming and fights over the scarce resources.

It's funny listening to Miley talk about her days in FoH. For most of classic they were literally the only guild on the server capable of killing stuff. So they just crawled around 'oh vox is up. Cool'. Unfortunately I don't have a good solution. Instances/spawn tokens would be nice, but then people would get tired and leave when they maxed their pixels. Banning account sales would probably help but would hardly be a panacea. Getting Velious would be great, but tbh I think it'll be more of the same: I'm already on record as saying Velious will be a giant clusterfuck as everyone abandons stale Kunark content. Probably the only thing that would really 'fix' the server from a population standpoint would be the simultaneous release of Velious, Luclin and PoP :D

It'd suck for me but I think it would be great for the server to just limit people to 1 char over L50. It might also be interesting to see some sort of minimally effective but hugely timeconsuming set of AAs. Perhaps a set of AAs which each increased any particular stat/resist by one. Not classic so obviously it won't happen :D I'd also be curious to see a 'purple' server: something with pvp in dungeons only. I think there are a lot of positives to pvp (much less retarded than variance) but the potential for griefing and annoyance is just too high when there are no safe zones at all.

[Vandy]

Just wondering what is the information out there that the current VP rules are based off of? Where did it state that a non-CSR zone would give players in said zone the ability to train others?

[Metallikus]

Just wondering what is the information out there that the current VP rules are based off of? Where did it state that a non-CSR zone would give players in said zone the ability to train others?

these are custom rules for this server to keep the status quo. tmo doesnt want anyone else in there, so their server staff keeps it that way.

whatever intention there was at the beginning to make it a non-csr zone, is irrelevant now and has been ever since IB and TMO stopped rotating dragons.

[Metallikus]

to clarify, no one likes to grief and train other players except for TMO. Therefore, no other guild can stomach the nonsense of training/griefing tmo long enough to force a more peaceful system. therefore, status quo...vp was built and rules are maintained for tmo.

[Ele]

to clarify, no one likes to grief and train other players except for TMO. Therefore, no other guild can stomach the nonsense of training/griefing tmo long enough to force a more peaceful system. therefore, status quo...vp was built and rules are maintained for tmo.

false

[Autotune]

Actually, it was built for me. Rogean and I are married and he likes to do these things for me, he's such a sweet heart <3

[Alarti0001]

to clarify, no one likes to grief and train other players except for TMO. Therefore, no other guild can stomach the nonsense of training/griefing tmo long enough to force a more peaceful system. therefore, status quo...vp was built and rules are maintained for tmo.

FE and TMO were having good times in VP last nite. Trying be correct... just once.

[Briscoe]

A bit part of the problem with 1999 is everyone wanted to relive their something they did 10 years ago, but, and this is the key point, just a bit better. The people that just got to 40 wanted to be 60 and explore some new zones. The people that got 60 and were in casual raid guilds wanted to be the hardcore badasses with all the pixels they never got to have. The people that were in hardcore raid guilds usually didn't come back as they had already beaten the game the first time around.

Perfectly stated. I'm sure a few of the original hardcore types have come back temporarily out of curiosity, but I can't imagine those guys sticking around for long, much less getting involved in this raid scene.

[Itap]

I missed out on kunark content back in the day, so it will be nice when SoV is released and I might be able to see some of it :p

[Ele]

bump for sirken

[YendorLootmonkey]

So my understanding from Kunark/Velious definitions of Customer Service Limited zones is that Guides/GMs are to still maintain investigating possible Exception Incidents (Abuse, Disruption, or Exploitation) at the request of a player.

Exception Incidents are defined to include Disruption, which itself includes Harrassment and Zone/Area Disruption, which training mobs would fall under to any reasonable individual (which is why they are investigated and punished in non-CS Limited zones.)

So what is the reason for the "non-canonical" allowance of training in VP (and in future CS-Limited zones upon Velious release) here? I mean, if we're going back to make everything like it was, why is training being allowed in these zones when clearly it was still subject to punishment on Live despite being "CS Limited"?

[Gustoo]

This is a good discussion but really makes me think you guys would be a lot happier on red server where there are more consequences for being this sort of dirtbag.

[Gadwen]

This is a good discussion but really makes me think you guys would be a lot happier on red server where there are more consequences for being dirtbags.

Yeah, the consequence that the dirtbag Red players face is a nearly empty server with nothing but a handful of other dirtbags to hang around with. It's like EQ hell.

[Nneen]

Harassment – targeting another player, or group of players, to harm or inconvenience them
Zone/Area Disruption – monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area rather than stealing from a specific player or group of players, deliberately blocking a doorway or narrow area so other players can’t get past, refusing to cooperate with the other parties at a contested spawn site after having been instructed to do so by a CS Representative

So Zone/Area disruption? Aka bards?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

basically, if it starts with P and it rhymes with fool, you got trouble.

[Verenity]

Awesome finds, hopefully the GMs will come to their senses and not implement such a ridiculous policy in Velious raid zones and start enforcing the limited CSR policy how it was actually intended.

[Nlaar]

Awesome finds, hopefully the GMs will come to their senses and not implement such a ridiculous policy in Velious raid zones and start enforcing the limited CSR policy how it was actually intended.

Well said and without the $@#% that I would have added.

[Shaunte]

It's cute that you guys think the staff here actually do anything properly.

Paypalmelinda
Bort
Sirken
Ambrotos
Secrets

Great track record.

Caught 350+ people cheating? Free pass.
Caught an entire guild exploiting raid mobs on red? Free pass.
Caught another entire guild exploiting raid mobs on red? Free pass.
Caught an entire guild exploiting pathing in VP? Free pass.
Caught on video exploiting IP exemptions to train with impunity? Free pass.

The staff are quite possibly the worst in any emulated MMO community I've seen, while the emulated content itself is pure gold. It's a shame these clowns ruin it by being complete and utter amateurish failures.

Nilbog. Fire these faggots for ruining your work's image.

[arsenalpow]

Id be 100% willing to help lighten the petition load on p99 and help purify the toxic environment if I didn't have to go into witness protection to do so. Not like it matters, people will always find a way to dig up your previous character history.

[Sollix]

Caught 350+ people cheating? Free pass.
Caught an entire guild exploiting raid mobs on red? Free pass.
Caught another entire guild exploiting raid mobs on red? Free pass.
Caught an entire guild exploiting pathing in VP? Free pass.
Caught on video exploiting IP exemptions to train with impunity? Free pass.


I'll never understand why these people play on p1999. Isn't the whole idea to experience the difficulty of "classic" game mechanics? That was what brought me in.

[Sollix]

Go 12-box on ezserver imo

[Atmas]

to clarify, no one likes to grief and train other players except for TMO. Therefore, no other guild can stomach the nonsense of training/griefing tmo long enough to force a more peaceful system. therefore, status quo...vp was built and rules are maintained for tmo.

This is magnanimously stupid. As recently as this week TMO still gets trained in VP by guilds that don't even attempt any mobs there.

[Nirgon]

I'll never understand why these people play on p1999. Isn't the whole idea to experience the difficulty of "classic" game mechanics? That was what brought me in.

No, Some people are here to prove in any way possible that they are good at classic EverQuest.

Others will nutswing and join their ranks, however, I know how much loot has flooded the banks and I can assure you... there is no skill and progression about raid forces in full PD loot.

That said?

Even with all that, many have failed and will fail lol.

Think that over and the next time you are about to say "EQ isn't a game about skill", maybe you'll realize that it is.

It takes quite a bit of organizational and in game social skill (despite how seeming anti-social the activity of playing EverQuest is, well, it is anti-social). It takes rule lawyering, quick thinking, preparation and execution.

Hopefully when Velious has finished its cycle however long from now, the reroll (or new time line) and "true" classic timeline server will produce some real champions. I will be smiling hard as hell on that day if it comes.

And @ the guy who listed a few corrupt staff with a few good ones, realize this is just the "beta" (and a very long one) of this project, or at least so I've been made to believe by its mission statement.

[Flamewraith]

Non-Fantasy Names – Names that are not appropriate for the fantasy genre of EverQuest

50% of this server would get wiped the fuck out. Glory to like the six people who actually have race/class appropriate names.

It makes me sad that there is so much drama going on (from adults? Really? Full grown men acting like children over a video game that's old as shit?) in this awesome server that is basically our last breath of classic.

[zel]

This is magnanimously stupid. As recently as this week TMO still gets trained in VP by guilds that don't even attempt any mobs there.

As if TMO didn't do the same thing when FE actively attempted dragons. Stall with a group of people til thier majority could get on at primetime 8hr later... GTFO with that bullshit...

[Skope]

It's cute that you guys think the staff here actually do anything properly.

Paypalmelinda
Bort
Sirken
Ambrotos
Secrets

Great track record.

Caught 350+ people cheating? Free pass.
Caught an entire guild exploiting raid mobs on red? Free pass.
Caught another entire guild exploiting raid mobs on red? Free pass.
Caught an entire guild exploiting pathing in VP? Free pass.
Caught on video exploiting IP exemptions to train with impunity? Free pass.

The staff are quite possibly the worst in any emulated MMO community I've seen, while the emulated content itself is pure gold. It's a shame these clowns ruin it by being complete and utter amateurish failures.

Nilbog. Fire these faggots for ruining your work's image.

You forgot a few things:

- Spawn timers being leaked by staff members with access to the database (this may have happened more than once)

- Dupers being unbanned

- Some guilds getting far harsher punishments for the same exact incidents that other guilds were given a slap on the wrist for.

It makes perfect sense that they don't want to deal with CSR given the horrible track record and the fact that it's always going to be scrutinized, but this is very much a case of 'you made the bed you're sleeping in.'

[Frieza_Prexus]

I do think it'd be very beneficial for the server to implement a few pre-agreements regarding some select Velious zones, agreements that everyone could get on board with. I have no doubt that the leadership, and most TMO members would be willing to seriously mull these over.

For example, if you clear X % of PoG, you get first rights on Tunare. Or perhaps the first guild to down Ail The Elder has X number of hours or three attempts on her, whichever is first. Can you AoE the majority of PoG? This might factor into it. Here it might be permissible to set up an automated CSR script that tracks certain factions and announces when a single guild has obtained "rights." It wouldn't be non-classic in the sense that it would save a GM from logging on to rule, it'd have 0 impact on actual gameplay.

Sleeper's should be a no-train zone with a single exception: killing more than two warders should be a trainable event. I think we should have a safety margin by leaving an extra warder up at all times. It's just good policy. It also leads to more loot long term from the warders due to a lessened chance that the Sleeper will be woken. I'm saying it now, anyone who wakes the Sleeper for the lulz is a shitbag. I don't care if you're in my guild, it's an asshole move and you know it. This is one of those times where we need to break down the fences of mistrust and watch out as a community. Let's not turn this server into the Stanford Prison Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment) anymore than it already is.

ToV-North should be non-trainable. Vulak is given to the first guild to kill X# of dragons. I think there's a VERY strong case to be made for tying all of ToV into a single repop scheme whose timer does not start until all dragons are down. NToV was a dragon crawl on live, and it should be here. Perhaps we could make it so that downing Aaryonnar allows a guild to "Pick" which dragon (or two or three) it tackles next (minus Vulak who is determined by first to reach X kills of dragons past Aary). On live downing Aaryonnar was very often the manner used to settle NToV disputes, and it would actually be fairly classic to use him as some kind of "advantage" granter. Also, if Vulak pops separately, he can easily be 3AM sniped. Without any other dragons up, his summon will be useless.

Vindi should not be on a variance, and it'd be nice to see a rule that he cannot be killed more than twice in a row by the same guild. Or make it so that the guild that has 2 kills in a row must wait 2 hours after his next spawn or whatever. Vindi is extremely common, but the BP is always going to be in heavy demand. I think we'd benefit a lot from a rule like that.

Also, I'm not sure if it's possible, but I'd love to see the entrance to PoM rehidden, at least for the first few months, as a way to make it "special" again. I think ShowEQ users might be able to see the zoneline? Maybe it could be a secret quest where the NPC teleports you there with the right dialogue? Just a thought. PoM was very special early on, and my server actually had a lower-tier guild get in a good bit before the #1 guild and it was refreshing to say the least.

[Tiddlywinks]

Or we could, y'know, attempt to emulate classic, remove variance, and CSR accordingly.

Nice ideas though, just what this server needs, more people spinning conjecture on how to make the server enjoyable to the largest number of people/themselves as opposed to actually recreating a classic server.

Then again I don't think most people have actually cared about the servers mission statement much in the past 2 years anyway.

[Nirgon]

The internet of today is not the internet of yesterdecade.

Easier to access, more scum, more problems

The best point made is Nilbog citing that each server on live had its, say, hundred or so truly competent (I didn't say good) EQ players

Almost the entire population here has a pretty good handle on things and isn't starry eyed and lost in the world

So you have more people in contested areas. I can't even tell you how rarely we could find a group outsie the guild/raid sect, if ever, that could do SolB efreeti. Most players here are familiar with lulling, debuffing and splitting the mobs leading up that way and you can do it.

Now, put all these people together (along with their feelings of entitlement) in non-instanced areas. Surprise! There's bullshit!




Again, don't forget. And please correct me if I'm wrong.

None of what happened matters in the true grand scheme of things unless you want to brag about being some kind of EQ legend on a server that was heavily undeveloped and for a while did not represent classic EQ very much.

It's getting pretty close. Bring your bragging rights to the big show on the finished project server.

[Skope]

I do think it'd be very beneficial for the server to implement a few pre-agreements regarding some select Velious zones, agreements that everyone could get on board with

There have been a few cases where agreements between both staff and players have been taken back at the staff's behest. The proposed raid rules change being crapped on is another such incident.

Agreements don't matter here, not unless there's a willingness to see them through - and there isn't. Don't bother.

[falkun]

I do think it'd be very beneficial for the server to implement a few pre-agreements regarding some select Velious zones, agreements that everyone could get on board with. I have no doubt that the leadership, and most TMO members would be willing to seriously mull these over.

I speak for myself, but I'm calling bullshit on this. BDA, VD, and FE have all stated they were willing to work on agreements. I'm at a catch-22 where I feel its futile to bring anything to TMO while at the same time I can't trust anything TMO may bring to the table.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Or we could, y'know, attempt to emulate classic, remove variance.

Nothing I've said precludes those. They're two separate issue. Regarding your comment that we remove CSR: many servers had GM enforced agreements and community agreements regarding raid scenes. Am I unequivocally suggesting that we should have GM enforced agreements? No. I am suggesting that agreements are an option be they player run, or GM enforced, and that they are undeniably classic.

more people spinning conjecture on how to make the server enjoyable to the largest number of people/themselves as opposed to actually recreating a classic server.

What are you suggesting? As I mentioned, any proposed rules/agreements that I have mentioned are well within the scope of "classic" due to the varied circumstances among the many servers. Are you suggesting that I am proposing these changes because they benefit me or TMO? Without a PoG agreement TMO, or any guild for that matter, would be able to jump into PoG and destroy Tunare while the smaller guilds are just standing there holding the bag after clearing the zone for 5+ hours. This way, if she pops while they're farming smaller guilds have a guaranteed manner in which to attempt her.

It's the same in NToV. If training is allowed, NToV will be hellishly difficult, doubly so if the proper proximity aggro changes are put into place. TMO is currently the only guild that might stand a chance at downing a dragon while being trained, and even then it's a VERY iffy proposition if the trainers are half-way competent. These suggestions make it more difficult for TMO to monopolize certain content.

If you're not suggesting that my suggestions are self-interested, then please ignore the above. I am unsure of what you mean to say.

Don't bother.

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy and a defeatist attitude. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish with it, unless you mean to maintain the status quo. Which I strongly doubt you do.

I speak for myself, but I'm calling bullshit on this. BDA, VD, and FE have all stated they were willing to work on agreements. I'm at a catch-22 where I feel its futile to bring anything to TMO while at the same time I can't trust anything TMO may bring to the table.

I don't really blame you, or anyone else for that matter, to doubt the sincerity or the motivations of the guild, but there's not much to lose by trying. The majority of TMO are reasonable people. We all know how quickly and easily certain individuals can co-opt the direction of an organization. I catch a lot of flak for saying this, but there's just a smaller section that are vehemently against agreements of any kind, and they gain traction and support as mistrust builds. It's really a negative cycle. There's also a minority that supports cooperative play to varying degrees, and they can also gain traction under the right circumstances.

Velious can be seen as a fresh start, and I think it's entirely possible for the entire server to embrace some rules and agreements before hand.

[Skope]

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy and a defeatist attitude. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish with it, unless you mean to maintain the status quo. Which I strongly doubt you do.

It's not a defeatist attitude - it's reality. Promises have been made and promises broken, but rarely have they ever been kept. You're being hopeful when you have no reason to be, and recent events only back the point that it's fruitless.

[falkun]

I don't really blame you, or anyone else for that matter, to doubt the sincerity or the motivations of the guild, but there's not much to lose by trying. The majority of TMO are reasonable people. We all know how quickly and easily certain individuals can co-opt the direction of an organization. I catch a lot of flak for saying this, but there's just a smaller section that are vehemently against agreements of any kind, and they gain traction and support as mistrust builds. It's really a negative cycle. There's also a minority that supports cooperative play to varying degrees, and they can also gain traction under the right circumstances.

Velious can be seen as a fresh start, and I think it's entirely possible for the entire server to embrace some rules and agreements before hand.

There's not much to gain by trying either. The reasonable majority you claim to have is also a silent/quiet majority, at least by historic actions. I'd love for Velious to be a fresh start, but this is a case of "your only as strong as your weakest link,", and TMO is the weak link in the chain of cooperation. Walk your talk, Xasten.

[Splorf22]

There's not much to gain by trying either. The reasonable majority you claim to have is also a silent/quiet majority, at least by historic actions. I'd love for Velious to be a fresh start, but this is a case of "your only as strong as your weakest link,", and TMO is the weak link in the chain of cooperation. Walk your talk, Xasten.

Why should they share when they get everything as is and the only negative is the amount of tracking and batphoning, which is somewhat mitigated by the size of the guild? If I were in TMO I wouldn't want a rotation either. We have a ridiculous 11 guilds on the sky rotation. That means killing any particular target once every 2 months or more, even if we make some guilds double up. Even if they decided to take off say every other week people would just demand more.

The root problem of this server is the overcrowding at the high-end. The staff has come up with a solution that kinda sorta works for them by simply making the raid scene too obnoxious for most of the players, thus reducing the contention. Now in my opinion a solution that fucks over the vast majority of the server isn't a very good one, but the whole business just doesn't seem to be a very high priority.

[Nirgon]

Root of the problem is the quadruple extended Kunark time line

[falkun]

Lorean, I completely agree with your assessment of TMO's situation, "We already get it all, what do we gain from negotiations?" But Xasten isn't agreeing with your assessment, or at least he believes TMO would "mull over" concessions, and that's what I called him out on in my original post in this thread.

[pasi]

Root of the problem is the quadruple extended Kunark time line

Yes.

Although, I think that this has more to do with the amount of level 60s rather than the lack of content. Obviously even most hardcore raiders were not 60 before Velious on live. Furthermore, the issue of people (such as myself) having multiple decked out level 60 characters allows guilds to just camp fully-buffed guys on vital spawn points. This is something that is going to be done again for ST keys for the next 2-3 years.

Again, Velious brings a lot of content, but that content is also going to be dead on spawning like it is now. People are absolutely delusional in thinking that Velious is going to bring so much content that it cannot be locked down. Even mobs like Scout Charisa and Vindi are going be cutthroat.

At some point you realize that this is a far different game than live and ability to mass recruit, track, batphone, and rule-lawyer matters far more than anything else.

[Ambrotos]

Root of the problem is the quadruple extended Kunark time line

I think it had more to do with VP keys being soulbound and VP being "kept away" as punishment for a extra extended time. That just snowballed everything else, when one or two guilds should have been wiping and spending weeks on end just for VP dragons. That didn't happen, and it forced people to act like animals.

[Karafa]

I think it had more to do with VP keys being soulbound and VP being "kept away" as punishment for a extra extended time. That just snowballed everything else, when one or two guilds should have been wiping and spending weeks on end just for VP dragons. That didn't happen, and it forced people to act like animals.

Agree. The staff are constantly blamed for the delay in VP, but the training, constant petitioning, and just overall drama was pretty absurd at that time period!

[Nlaar]

As if TMO didn't do the same thing when FE actively attempted dragons. Stall with a group of people til thier majority could get on at primetime 8hr later... GTFO with that bullshit...

Agreed.

[Gadwen]

I think it had more to do with VP keys being soulbound and VP being "kept away" as punishment for a extra extended time. That just snowballed everything else, when one or two guilds should have been wiping and spending weeks on end just for VP dragons. That didn't happen, and it forced people to act like animals.

This isn't a life and death situation here, it's a conscious decision to act like animals.

[Tasslehofp99]

This isn't a life and death situation here, it's a conscious decision to act like animals.

Allowing training in any zone on eq is 100% non classic.
Its just a perversion of the term "non-csr" which benefits only TMO and no other guilds.
Why is this non classic rule allowed yet so many other areas of the game are strictly kept classic.
shit makes no sense.

[dbouya]

not sure if this is relevant but i am 100% sure that GM's did enter sleeper's tomb and keep an eye on things, the lead gm admitted to me that they attended a few of our first warder kills to make sure we weren't exploiting anything ( we used a lot of geometry to block AoEs which was a fairly new tactic at the time and I guess CS wanted to make sure we didn't take it too far ), I think we had the world first kill on either 3rd or 4th warder, forget which... so it wasn't entirely non-csr, although we also never had a single problem in the zone which meant we wanted help.

also about non-training... back in the year 2000 we saw some training, nothing was really done about it, but I think the THREAT that csr might do something about it, is what kept it so minimal... so... in 1999-2001 on my server training to be a dick was technically not allowed, but if you did it a few times no one would really make a big deal about it.


kunark saw quite a lot of training, and velious saw almost none, there were THREE top tier raiding guilds on our server and each of them just chose a different faction to follow predominantly, it was glorious, and there were only a few headbanging moments in coldain/kael, in the 0.5-1.0 years I played velious I never once saw a train being done in sleeper's then again our server got along fairly well for the most part during the velious era, so I'm not entirely sure what sony's non-csr policy really meant, but I do know they DEFINITELY did not publish their non-csr policy to the public, or promote it, so while maybe the CSR staff was forbidden to interfere in trains in sleeper's tomb, the people interested in training didn't know this and thusly were slightly less likely to do it, eh?

[Joroz]

Interesting that "training" appears nowhere in there. Since it's obviously a huge CS issue in EQ, it must have been left out for a reason. I mean, "sexual harassment" is still in there.

Incorrect, dumping of monsters on other players is covered under exploitation.

• PvP Switch Avoidance – Using in-game methods to work around the PvP switch and allowing non-PvP players to kill other players, such as hall blocking, dumping of monsters, or spell effects that cross that boundary due to a bug.

[timhutton]

Training was against the live PnP and therefore addressed for all zones, even those with hands off CSR:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1068740&postcount=662

In the event you haven't noticed, or there is any confusion; P99's PnP is different from the one used on live EQ.

[Ravager]

Training was against the live PnP and therefore addressed for all zones, even those with hands off CSR:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1068740&postcount=662

In the event you haven't noticed, or there is any confusion; P99's PnP is different from the one used on live EQ.

PnnP

[Joroz]

Training was against the live PnP and therefore addressed for all zones, even those with hands off CSR:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1068740&postcount=662

In the event you haven't noticed, or there is any confusion; P99's PnP is different from the one used on live EQ.

Yes it was against the pnp which is different on here but pointing out it was also considered an exploit to use mobs to pvp other players under the rules.

[Godefroi]

Training wasn't allowed, thank you, QFT.

Sirken ?

[quido]

Remember when everyone thought the condoned training was unfair to TMO?

[Reguiy]

I'm against training, and all the BS that goes along with high end raiding. But when everyone cries about it on the forums I almost want the GMs to keep all that shit in. Anyone else with me?

[Godefroi]

Nope, Fennin Ro and TMO ( Besides Ele and Xasten ) are the only one that are voting against.

Then again, we all know those people don't like shit to be classic.

[Vandy]

I think if they are dead set on keeping the training aspect in that some sort of rules should be added to it.

Such that if you wish to train a guild that is going to attempt a VP run you have to have your VP raid force outside ready to move in. If you have no intent to immediately raid VP then you shouldn't be able to send in people to stall or grief.

[Reguiy]

Nope, Fennin Ro and TMO ( Besides Ele and Xasten ) are the only one that are voting against.

Then again, we all know those people don't like shit to be classic.

Sweet. My name is Fennin now.

[Godefroi]

Sweet. My name is Fennin now.

Being from Fennin Ro you don't really have to hide your ties with TMO and the fact that you don't want training to be forbidden ;)

[Reguiy]

Being from Fennin Ro you don't really have to hide your ties with TMO and the fact that you don't want training to be forbidden ;)

I could really care less what happens in VP, as I don't raid there. But when people go on the boards and cry all day, it really doesn't make me feel bad for you, or want there to be a rule change. It probably doesn't help your cause with the GMs either.

[Godefroi]

you miss the point here.


This is called p99 classic everquest, and players just provided evidences that a major feature of the raiding scene is currently not classic at all.

Nobody cares about what you think fyi lol, it's irrelevant to the topic.

[fishingme]

Can't say that I raid, but I miss the classic rules ;)

[Clark]

Hmm

[Tasslehofp99]

Bump for classic raiding rules on p99.
Do away with sanctioned training in any zone, like it was on live.

[finalgrunt]

They are investigating a possible Exception Incident (Abuse, Disruption, or Exploitation)

:eek: but but but ... so many people said they could do anything back then on Live(strong) :rolleyes:

Anyway, whatever happens, classic experience revival was ruined for many players.

[Autotune]

VP RUINED MEH CLASSICAL EXPERIENCE Y'ALL

[Tasslehofp99]

VP RUINED MEH CLASSICAL EXPERIENCE Y'ALL

Intentional training, unfortunately, doesn't only happen in VP on project1999.

[Godefroi]

this is hot stuff, getting ignored by the staff

qq

[xarzzardorn]

quoting the handbook is completely pointless. that doesn't actually mean that's what verant cs' in game practice was

[Tasslehofp99]

quoting the handbook is completely pointless. that doesn't actually mean that's what verant cs' in game practice was



Did you know there wasn't even a play nice policy officially until kunark was out?

It was implemented due to the fact players were ending their subscriptions as a result of the griefing that took place. Some of the stuff that goes on here is the very reason verant even implemented a playnice policy to begin with.

Now its somewhat of a catch 22 in this situation. Kunark has been out over 2 years, and the devs are likely focused on getting velious out asap. This is unfortunate for the guilds who have yet to fully experience kunark as they have been cockblocked out of content for whatever unjustifiable reason.

So now theres a situation where velious is on the horizon, and only one guild has really experienced kunark in its entirety. I would atleast think eliminating sanctioned training prior to velious release would open the door to a more friendly and competitive raiding atmosphere for those of us who have ultimately missed out on kunark.

As far as I can tell there is only one guild supporting sanctioned training in VP, and they have had their 2+ years in VP without much competition at all. For those who say "man up and do something about it" I ask you this: why is it more logical to allow training in a zone when this is the opposite of what it was like on live? What purpose/benefit is there that is legitimate?

If FE was able to zone into VP, engage in training retardation for 8 hours and still come away with a druushk kill with 24 players to TMO's 38, then whats to stop a guild from doing the same in sleepers tomb? There is literally no winning argument for allowing training in any zone (vp/st/ntov(, or atleast none have been presented. Its just a tactic bad players use when they know they are outmatched.

If a guild really thought it was worth wasting 6 to 12 hours engaging TMO in training wars to get a single shot at a dragon, they would do so. Point is, its pointless. Training has no place in a competitive raiding scene, because all evidence so far shows that it minimizes competition. Some of us are above lowering our standards to that level just to win the most pixels at the end of the day.



If anyone can come up with a legitimate reason training is allowed, I'm very open to hearing the explanation. So far all that has come up in support of sanctioned training is that it prevents poopsocking. So in effect the group of players willing to actually sit there and camp a mob(effort) is punished by the server rules which allow lower skilled and less dedicated players to fuck them over with trains.

Outside of VP, competition consists of parking characters at raid mobs while one designated tracker watches for the mob. How/why is VP any different? Training there or anywhere is simply interference and nothing else. It takes more skill to race for/pull/engage dragons in VP without training, I just think the people saying otherwise are cowards and/or greedy liars.

[Godefroi]

Burden of proof my little TMO friend.

Official documents were provided, what have you ?

Keep trying.