The sandbox approach to GMing

[Tradesonred]

(Redoing this thread since other flamefest was locked and i think this subject deserves its own thread and should be discussed, especially the ninja looting part)

I think a good rule of thumb on designing server rules and GM intervention would be this:

GM intervention should be the last resort where pvp matters stand. And when they do intervene, they should have clear, logical and explainable reasons why they needed to intervene and be ready to defend their cases in the forums.
The sandbox should be on top of the list of how to handle things as a GM. If a player wants to fuck another player over, then let other players deal with it, as long as 3rd party cheating wasnt involved.

Dont wanna get bound by hostiles? Dont group with randoms.

Theres a reason why eve online lasted so long, its because of the sandbox.
There is not a whole lot of sandbox to EQ, but the little there is, i think should be preserved and encouraged.

Thats why i disliked Amelinda's approach to her events, when she thinks of an event so rigid she has to temp ban someone because he zoned in her event.

There are repercussions to your actions in a game like EQ where it takes so long to level up your character. It makes the game more interesting to have crooks and white knights. By trying to overbear with stuff like making ninja looting illegal, it makes the game more boring.

The GMs should find something better to do with their time then giving themselves tasks to do that restrict what the players cant and can do arbitrarilly.

Thats why i liked the 2001 halloween event so much. Because it was a sandboxy event. Just put a bunch of event mobs in the world and let the players collaborate/tear each other to pieces over them.
The GMs didnt have to lift a finger for those events, i think thats the sort of things GMs should be thinking of and investing time in, and talking to Rogean about it.
I remember an event where we had to listen to a GM for riddles and shit, and then try to find what they meant in EQ.
An event like this would be cool, like a riddle for clues that leads to a special mob spawned somewhere. Say in a place where we dont usually see alot of, like runnyeye.

I think this is a much better way to spend GM time then policing if joewizard ninja looted a band of intelligence off that level35 ogre boss in Western Karana.

[Tradesonred]

Another example of overbearing rules:

Cant start CT kill cycle to make him attack an enemy guild that is working its way to him.

Instead of letting the players work out how to deal with this, like parting with a group of players to make them camp the entrance, they chose to babysit us and restrict what we can and cant do.

[Sirken]

just making one post in this thread and then im never looking back

i truly thought these bind griefed players were SOL on the bind. i did not think it was possible to fix without db changes. Another staff member offered a solution. i actually used rushmores toon as a guinea pig to even see if it would work. and im glad it did.

i truly understand the sandbox appeal, and as i player, those are the games i desire to play. I do not like getting involved in player affairs, but i cant allow people that are trying to help new players (like undercover dacbane) get punished for helping those players. its very bad for the server because it creates an environment that is not friendly towards new players.

and without new players trickling in, Server dies

my interests have been, and will always be for the server. will i always make the right call in every situation? no. but i will always be able to explain why i did what i did, yes.

if you have a problem with something i did, send a PM and we can talk about it.



EDIT - everything i do on red i to improve the server as a whole in the long run, for the big picture. if i find a player doing things that are counter productive to that, i have two choices; 1) i can intervene, or 2) i can step down from staff.

but i will not take two steps forward and then three steps backward. i am not trying to increase server pop so that asshats have a larger pool of players to grief. thats retarded, and its a waste of my time.

first goal is 200 players. so people have two choices, you can either get on board, or find somewhere else to play.

[Tradesonred]

just making one post in this thread and then im never looking back

i truly thought these bind griefed players were SOL on the bind. i did not think it was possible to fix without db changes. Another staff member offered a solution. i actually used rushmores toon as a guinea pig to even see if it would work. and im glad it did.

i truly understand the sandbox appeal, and as i player, those are the games i desire to play. I do not like getting involved in player affairs, but i cant allow people that are trying to help new players (like undercover dacbane) get punished for helping those players. its very bad for the server because it creates an environment that is not friendly towards new players.

and without new players trickling in, Server dies

my interests have been, and will always be for the server. will i always make the right call in every situation? no. but i will always be able to explain why i did what i did, yes.

if you have a problem with something i did, send a PM and we can talk about it.

But lets take the example of eve online, sandbox by excellence. The legendary stories of people getting fucked over serve as a warning to other players of what could happen to them.

If Rushmore was being vigilant, as we all should be on a pvp server, he would have seen these pink bubbles coming and disbanded before the hostile player could bind him.

So instead of a legendary story of how someone succeeded in removing rushmore from the pot bind, we have this meh story of how Sirken gave him back his bind cuz it was "grief".

I truly dont mean for this thread to become a flamefest toward you Sirken, id rather people discuss the pros and cons of the sandbox approach, Events that foster organic pvp like the ones i suggested.

Even i have sinned against the sandbox, by asking your help when i was deleved from 59 to 53 because of a RL emergency. I would gladly give up my 2 levels i got for a strict policy of non-intervention unless absolutely necessary and something you are confident enough with to justify it publicly.

I would like though if you could explain the rationale against ninja looting, to which i already offered my views against making it illegal, as it fosters rivalries, shit lists rather than whining at GMs that it was your pixels and that you were entitled to em instead of PKing the guy that stole/scammed you out of an item.

[Tippett]

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30300000/Spider-man-memes-meme-30324903-600-400.jpg

[SamwiseRed]

eq is pretty far from a sandbox tho. i get your point and i am really looking forward to what they do with eq next but eq1 is one of the most linear mmos of all time now. its not like back in the day when people RP'd and did other things. do you guys remember the pacifists? it was a group of eq players who only leveled off quests that didnt involve killing. youll never see that again. shit was hilarious.

[Nirgon]

Eve has thousands already

[Tippett]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_maha09r3DP1ql2xflo1_500.jpg

[SamwiseRed]

i always wondered what that avatar was all about basiah. dat u?

[Tippett]

http://pleated-jeans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/1-4.jpeg

[SamwiseRed]

http://www.blogcdn.com/massively.joystiq.com/media/2013/01/smedley.jpg

[Tippett]

http://img.izismile.com/img/img5/20121116/640/the_best_of_spiderman_memes_640_05.jpg

[Nirgon]

You just have to cry a lot to get things back:

http://i50.tinypic.com/rruiwl.jpg

Take Fallen's advice!

Be dumb all you want!

(Still ain't mad at Sirken tho, I get his point)

[fiegi 2.5]

lol when i asked fallen why he got suspended originally he said it wasnt even his fault, blamed it on the game/server for booting his character out so fast when he would login (ip exemption)

[Tradesonred]

eq is pretty far from a sandbox tho. i get your point and i am really looking forward to what they do with eq next but eq1 is one of the most linear mmos of all time now. its not like back in the day when people RP'd and did other things. do you guys remember the pacifists? it was a group of eq players who only leveled off quests that didnt involve killing. youll never see that again. shit was hilarious.

I would say that EQ1 is more of a sandbox than say, rift or WoW.

I know EQ1 is not the greatest sandbox, but it has some elements. For example, by leaving ninja looting legal you leave more options to people to decide wether they wanna play a fuck people over character or a white knight type character. I think its quite arbitrary to say its illegal and offer no logic behind it.

I mean, why not say that you cant kill someone more than once an hour? If i say its griefing, then it must be grief?

Why not say that you are not allowed to root someone while he is fighting a mob? Isnt that griefing?

To me the game is good enough as it is, no need to put some artificial rules on it that limits the choices that the players can make.

And yeah Tippett thats some real mature shit right there, how old are you, 14?

[SamwiseRed]

ya def more sandbox than wow ill give you that but compared to todays standards and player base its pretty far from it. still best mmo ever made. hope eq next does it right.

[Tippett]

http://img.izismile.com/img/img5/20121116/640/the_best_of_spiderman_memes_640_17.jpg

[Rettii]

LOL

[Nirgon]

lol when i asked fallen why he got suspended originally he said it wasnt even his fault, blamed it on the game/server for booting his character out so fast when he would login (ip exemption)

He just cried until he got it back (may have been a lot of crying)