game mechanics: resists

[Handpartytowel]

most agree that pvp resists could be improved. please post here based on your experience on live or preferably based on evidence (patch notes, wayback machine safehouse etc), how the resist system should work for a late kunark pvp server.

ignore the current state of r99. also ignore pve. imagine we are creating a system from scratch and you can implement player v player resists exactly like they worked at this time period on live. describe that system using math / logic as best you can.

[Tumdumm]

no u

[Nirgon]

Exactly like live did

[Handpartytowel]

nirgon this post was basically specifically for you.

describe to me what "exactly what live did" means. research. go.

[Handpartytowel]

to reiterate, the question is not "should we have live like resists"?

the question is "what are live like resists"?

[Nirgon]

I've posted this so many times :(. It's not getting worked on until velious even if all the research is done...


Correct logic:
"IE:
This covers all unresistable spells.
Spell: Tashina (60)
ID: 676
Resist: Unresistable
(this spell is unresistable barring certain factors.) (see below)
PVP resist(base): 5 (if player is 10 levels or more above caster)
PVP resist(max): 12 (if player is 10 levels or more below caster)
pvpresistcalc: 101 (beat this number to resist).

result for lvl 12 enc vs. lvl 22 Player:
calc is 101
base is 5
result : lands, 106 is number to beat but has no resist... so the target is deemed 101 resist points


Spell: Immobilize (39)
ID: 132
Resist: Magic, 0 (standard resists apply)
PVP resist(base): 50
PVP resist(max): -5
pvpresistcalc: 101

result for lvl 39 enc vs. lvl 49 Player:
calc is 101
base is -5
result : does NOT lands, 101 is number to beat but has no resist... so the target is deemed 95 resist points (-5 due to level difference)

Spell: Rapture (59)
ID: 1692
Resist: Magic
PVP Resists(base): -300 <- ten levels lower
PVP Resist(Max): -400 <- ten levels higher then caster
PVP Resist calc: 135< number to beat the spell's effect out-right

result: in addition to the level cap of the spell (affects creatures/people up to lvl 61)
1.) target is 10 levels lower, -400 is their starting point. so they would need a 535 Magic resist to outright resist the spell
2.) target is 10 levels higher, -300 is their starting point, they would need a resist of 435 to outright resist the spell.

Spell:Gasping Embrace (47)
Resist: Magic
PVP Resists(base): -42 <- ten levels lower
PVP Resist(Max): -57 <- ten levels higher then caster
PVP Resist calc: 133< number to beat the spell's effect out-right

result:
1.) target is 10 levels lower, -57 is their starting point. so they would need a 190 Magic resist to outright resist the spell
2.) target is 10 levels higher, -42 is their starting point. so they would need a 175 Magic resist to outright resist the spell.

with the exception of unresistable spells, in PVP there is a 10.5% chance to resist the spell if you do not meet the saving value.
conversely there is a 5.25% chance of the spell landing anyway -- Dr. Nirgon's note, again if you do not meet the saving value, otherwise it will not land if you meet the value no matter what!!! AKA - 164 magic resist means 0 roots ever, not 5.25%. A naked can resist, for instance, conflagaration 5.25% of the time... but not lure of frost.
with damaging spells the power of them or "how hard they hit" if they land is directly correlated to how close they came to the number. minimum of 25% dmg.

so if the spell lands it does at least 25% dmg (partial resists).
if 75%+ of the "to beat" number is reached and the spell lands then 25% dmg is incured.

these partial resists come in 25% of spell dmg, 50% and 75%


Correct values here.. ie: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spellraw.html?id=512&source=Live

^ Look up pvp resist, pvp calc, pvp base. More to it regarding random # generation but there it is, a certified truly classic way that resists worked.

Covered: an "unresistable" spell, A ROOT, and a standard casted dot/dd type of spell.

Not covered - "All or nothing" types. Any partial = a full resist, real brain stumper solved right there.


Take a minute, sit down with the logic and do some practice problems :P.

Classic players feel free to find some spells you perfectly recall working some way or another, pick some resist values and tell me where you think this falls apart.

Note: It is as legit as the Shadoo/Resist poison stacking bug I posted :P.

[Nirgon]

I seent Secrets in the recent patch notes doing very large things.

I will send many pizzas while this is worked on...

New players, especially those that remember how resists work in classic, get "griefed" off when they are chain rooted xping and letting players assist the mob in finishing the kill after they've buffed themselves/geared up to 70-80 magic level. They all don't come running to the msg board to complain about it either. It's as bad an issue as guards not assisting.

PvP should also be 4 lvls.. hi I'm 56, ain't trying to save my skin.

[Handpartytowel]

what happens when you cast a fire / ice/ poison nuke on someone with 0,50,100,200,300 fr?
what about mr nukes?
what about roots without dmg?
what about roots with dmg?
how did mez resists work?
whirl?
cleric / wiz stun?
mr dots?
fr / pr / dr dots?
how do partial vs full resists work for these situations?
for cc spells how is partial duration calculated

*edit* nigron posted much while i was typing this out, assume all is answered. others are welcome to chime in here too.

[Nirgon]

Short answer: When can we expect work to start on this? Really praying that Secrets will pick up the work load. This is all pretty well detailed and explained. I'd be more than happy to do all the data entry work for every spell :P.

I'd also be happy to write a very, very well documented report of all this if any interest is ever expressed.

Otherwise, you can just ask me in vent when I get home.

[Rettii]

Need more

[Smedy]

Good topic, hope someone with knowledge and access and time to fix it reads it though.

I played during velious era so i don't know shit about kunark, but root or blind wasn't an issue for me at 120mr on velious atleast.

[SamwiseRed]

blind should def not be an issue at 120 mr lul

root should be like 5% chance at 140

[Tomatoking]

what happens when you cast a fire / ice/ poison nuke on someone with 0,50,100,200,300 fr?
what about mr nukes?
what about roots without dmg?
what about roots with dmg?
how did mez resists work?
whirl?
cleric / wiz stun?
mr dots?
fr / pr / dr dots?
how do partial vs full resists work for these situations?
for cc spells how is partial duration calculated

*edit* nigron posted much while i was typing this out, assume all is answered. others are welcome to chime in here too.


does not matter what anyone posts , confirms , says


Staff

Does

Not

Care

Why should you?

[Handpartytowel]

Spell:Gasping Embrace (47)
Resist: Magic
PVP Resists(base): -42 <- ten levels lower
PVP Resist(Max): -57 <- ten levels higher then caster
PVP Resist calc: 133< number to beat the spell's effect out-right

result:
1.) target is 10 levels lower, -57 is their starting point. so they would need a 190 Magic resist to outright resist the spell
2.) target is 10 levels higher, -42 is their starting point. so they would need a 175 Magic resist to outright resist the spell.



what are pvp resists(base) and pvp resists (max)? i see that they are properties of the spell and somehow relate to the caster v target level difference, but you dont explain this at all.

so basically we apply the resist mod for the spell(in this case 0), something to do with resist base and max to the target's mr, and if that value is >= resist calc (133), we get full resist.

with the exception of unresistable spells, in PVP there is a 10.5% chance to resist the spell if you do not meet the saving value.
conversely there is a 5.25% chance of the spell landing anyway -- Dr. Nirgon's note, again if you do not meet the saving value, otherwise it will not land if you meet the value no matter what!!! AKA - 164 magic resist means 0 roots ever, not 5.25%. A naked can resist, for instance, conflagaration 5.25% of the time... but not lure of frost.
with damaging spells the power of them or "how hard they hit" if they land is directly correlated to how close they came to the number. minimum of 25% dmg."

if we dont get full resist, there is still a 10.5% chance to resist, but 5.25% chance of spell landing AFTER you make the 10.5% check for it to be resisted? but not lures? honestly this paragraph is unreadable.

[Tomatoking]

what are pvp resists(base) and pvp resists (max)? i see that they are properties of the spell and somehow relate to the caster v target level difference, but you dont explain this at all.

so basically we apply the resist mod for the spell(in this case 0), something to do with resist base and max to the target's mr, and if that value is >= resist calc (133), we get full resist.



if we dont get full resist, there is still a 10.5% chance to resist, but 5.25% chance of spell landing AFTER you make the 10.5% check for it to be resisted? but not lures? honestly this paragraph is unreadable.

after your investigation make sure you submit your report to rogean so he can put it in his folder labeled HAHAHAHAH

:)

[Handpartytowel]

does not matter what anyone posts , confirms , says


Staff

Does

Not

Care

Why should you?

not sure yet. maybe if i fix this on my own server and give the staff the code they will implement it on p99.

[Tomatoking]

not likely

but if you can release a pvp server with proper resist code , people would play on it

[Handpartytowel]

not likely

but if you can release a pvp server with proper resist code , people would play on it

believe me, i know that there is between little and no hope of anything worthwhile ever getting fixed on this server, but i am still interested in learning how the mechanics should work. in addition, if we can give the non-existent devs a logical model to translate into code, it just makes their job easier.

[Pudge]

i think the current system is fine except for partials, and some specific things like blind, mage pet root, etc.

root doesnt land that often, and has an additional chance to break when you take damage. i dont know what all the cry is about

-------------

i did always like the idea of resists scaling with the era to match gear though. so during classic say you'd need 80 FR to partial 25% of the time, 110 to partial the same amount in kunark, 140 the same in velious. (or something similar, you get the idea). But no reason to worry about this now, because velious is out on the horizon.. somewhere

[Nirgon]

but not lures?

Or tash/malo/mala etc.

Point being, a naked person (aka 25hp) still has a flat out chance to completely resist the spell even though they don't meet the saving value. Yes, even with wizard -10 modifier.

[Jigga]

It would be nice to have a chance to completely resist a nuke

[Nirgon]

Base = 10 lvls lower
Max = 10 lvls higher

Past that it uses these values (hence min val/max val logic assigned to spell)

What is outlined here is to prove that at a certain resist value, you will resist the spell EVERY time. That's the point :P. It needs to exist at least for a few spells here which would suffice until Velious, even if we aren't going to go full monty on the fixing. It at least needs to *more* classic with later revisions based on priority, like the guild tag on the same line without the space.

It would be nice to have a chance to completely resist a nuke

I'm a wizard player seeking classic EverQuest, and I approve this message.

[Tomatoking]

It would be nice to have a chance to completely resist a nuke
wont happen on this server

unless a npc casts it that is

[Tomatoking]

on live when velious had been out for a few months , melee twinks would get guardian armor and basic resist gear and you didnt land shit on them, they had a blast

even through luclin the paludal pvp was probably some of the best i ever had

always melee classes in guardian and rogue twinks , was so fun