Project 1999
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Project 1999 (/forums/index.php)
-   Melee (/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=63)
-   -   MIN/MAXING A ROGUE'S GLOVE SLOT (/forums/showthread.php?t=254193)

Lhancelot 11-15-2016 03:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecily (Post 2402602)
To put it simply, accuracy is a level check (your skill levels vs mob's level) that results in a given % chance to hit. That number doesn't change. The only way you can affect it is by attacking from behind to negate your opponent's defensive abilities. Stats do not change accuracy. DEX doesn't. STR doesn't. ATK doesn't. Charisma might. CHA doesn't.

ATK increases the frequency of higher hits versus a given AC. IE: Hit for / BS for max more often.

STR is * the* most important stat for rogues, regardless of high availability, because it directly effects your max potential hit with melee and, of particular interest, backstabs. Backstab a sitting friend while you have rez effects on and see how sad it is versus 255 STR. Extra ATK too. There's no reason to not focus on this early.
Yeah ok, I understand this. This makes sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdTuBrutus (Post 2402604)
Yeah, of course. Which is the point. Changing the MAX when the MODAL doesn't change does not make a significant dps difference. Which is my entire point. I'd also add, that the entire point for going with Str on gear etc is as a form of min-maxing, so I'm not sure why we are considering non-Barb Rogues.
I have no idea what this means, it makes no sense to me, at all. Can't you write in a fashion where someone like me can understand what you are explaining? It sounds like you know a lot about rogues and how to optimize them with gear and/or stats, but I can't follow what you are saying. :confused:

EdTuBrutus 11-15-2016 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecily (Post 2402602)
ATK increases the frequency of higher hits versus a given AC. IE: Hit for / BS for max more often.
That's not entirely true. Its a non-normal distribution, it only effectively** skew the top end, with the peak, obviously, being fixed at your Modal.

(** There is a chunk of nuance there, but genuinely would only create the same confusing narrative which leads people to invest in bad gear choices while they are progressing)

EdTuBrutus 11-15-2016 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lhancelot (Post 2402617)
I have no idea what this means, it makes no sense to me, at all. Can't you write in a fashion where someone like me can understand what you are explaining? It sounds like you know a lot about rogues and how to optimize them with gear and/or stats, but I can't follow what you are saying. :confused:
Sorry, I just don't really know a simple way to explain it.

The best way to think about it is that due to the way the EQ combat works, Str has a limited effect. So while you are levelling to 60, don't even think about it. If you concentrate on gear with a high AC, you will be much more flexible and capable of soloing till your into your low 50s.

Once you are 60, for absolute maximum dps, you want your buffed Str to be 255. If you are 60 and raiding is it relatively easy to do this, so if you focus on gear with good HP and Resists, you are likely to find your Str capped or close to capped anyway.

Lhancelot 11-15-2016 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdTuBrutus (Post 2402626)
Sorry, I just don't really know a simple way to explain it.

The best way to think about it is that due to the way the EQ combat works, Str has a limited effect. So while you are levelling to 60, don't even think about it. If you concentrate on gear with a high AC, you will be much more flexible and capable of soloing till your into your low 50s.

Once you are 60, for absolute maximum dps, you want your buffed Str to be 255. If you are 60 and raiding is it relatively easy to do this, so if you focus on gear with good HP and Resists, you are likely to find your Str capped or close to capped anyway.
Gotcha. Thank you.

Muggens 11-15-2016 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdTuBrutus (Post 2402474)
Wrong.

As for the personal stuff, hope its helped you feel better today.
Nah, I know more str=more dps. You are very adamant on this, exclaiming advice to rogue youngins to go the opposite direction of the norm, have you tried this on here or are you just banging on about the Steel Warriors?

RDawg816 11-15-2016 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muggens (Post 2402650)
Nah, I know more str=more dps. You are very adamant on this, exclaiming advice to rogue youngins to go the opposite direction of the norm, have you tried this on here or are you just banging on about the Steel Warriors?
Yes, he has a rogue on p99. I've grouped with him. You're right, he is very adamant about AC being most important...even the the point of telling the warriors in the group he will tank because his AC is higher...
I don't think it's worth arguing with him. People will believe what they want.

Raev 11-15-2016 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdTuBrutus (Post 2402620)
That's not entirely true. Its a non-normal distribution, it only effectively** skew the top end, with the peak, obviously, being fixed at your Modal.
I think you may be relying too much on old data from Live. While the quests and factions and items match, many game mechanics do not, including very important ones like resists, AC, and spell threat.

For example, parsing Raev vs Telkorenar from yesterday, I had 5 'modal' hits for 97 (Abashi's 40*2+17 damage bonus) out of 161 hits total. In fact the true mode of the distribution was actually the min hit for 21, with 20 total hits. Boot up gamparse sometime and you can see that strength absolutely makes a difference. IIRC I eyeballed it at about 1% extra damage per 5-10 points of strength when I was leveling.

I am all about AC and HP and not dying on all of my toons, but 250 vs 150 STR is maybe +15% extra damage, which is your primary role as a rogue.

Samoht 11-15-2016 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdTuBrutus (Post 2402316)
You will be hit. You will face AE. Dead Rogues do no damage. Rogues who are waiting to engage in case they get pulped from evade failures do no damage.

Ignore Str, ignore Dex, ignore Agi (as long as its over 75). Wear items entirely focused on AC with a secondary consideration to HP until you are 60. At 60 focus on HP with a consideration for Resists. Starting points should go into 25 Sta, 5 Str (if you play a race where Agi is close to the penalty level of 75, you might wanna put the 5pts there) Due to the way itemisation works in EQ, you will naturally cap Str focusing on HP items once you are raiding.
Why are you still posting here? There is only one thing that you're right about, and that's that dead rogues do no DPS. But if two rogues are alive, and one is STR capped while the other is not, the one more STR will do more DPS. I can't believe you're still questioning this. Rogues should NEVER gear for AC.

Everything else you post is elitist nonsensical horse crap. You've never even once provided a source to the things you claim. That's how wrong you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecily (Post 2401844)
Cap str with buffs then work on survival (hp/sta/resists). Anything else is wrong.
Jesus christ, why did you let him go on for so long before you got involved?

EdTuBrutus 11-15-2016 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RDawg816 (Post 2402666)
Yes, he has a rogue on p99. I've grouped with him. You're right, he is very adamant about AC being most important...even the the point of telling the warriors in the group he will tank because his AC is higher...
I don't think it's worth arguing with him. People will believe what they want.
There's no need to lie.

You know, you're last point is the nub of the whole debate. I think it is pretty well established how low value Stats are in EQ. The big problem is that a lot of people have taken the time and trouble to gear characters based on the false knowledge about stats. And in EQ, that is a LOT of time and trouble.

It never surprises me that people who believe in stats will argue so angrily, so vindictively that stats work, even to the point of making up lies and grasping at the thinnest of straws. But the good thing is that gear is cheap and newer players will likely try it both ways and it becomes very, very clear to them, very, very quickly, which is the correct gearing choice,

And it is not yours.

Samoht 11-15-2016 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdTuBrutus (Post 2402733)
I think it is pretty well established how low value Stats are in EQ.
There has been a lot of evidence posted that directly contradict this statement. Some of it has even been posted by you. Why do you continue to defend such an indefensible position?


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