Theorycrafting - Lore Logic vs Gameplay
 

Disclaimer: this is theorycrafting thread only. It is in no way related to proposing any changes to existing servers. This is purely WHAT IF discussion.

Many EQ players are RPers at heart, and like when things thematically align, even if they don't always show. Myself, I am also such person, and like when "things make logical sense". Like - if you hold a gnome underwater long enough - he will drown. But mermaids can breath in water, so they are ok. Yeah I know all npcs in EQ do not drown regardless if they mermaids or hill giants - because gameplay. But I can live with that one - its a technical limitation.

But lets talk thematic inconsistences. Lets say - Fire Elementals are immune to fire. Should be, the are pure flame right? But now let say we have a Mage who specializes in School of Fire. He has some non fire spells, but his primary spell power comes from Fire spells, and he faces Fire Elementals - he going to be useless.
I know that in actual EQ - Mages don't get to specialize like that, and they have ton of spells to compensate for mobs that have specific high resists and all that. And EQ doesn't have actually have mobs that completely immune to specific type of damage - even Fire Elementals take damage from Fire spells, even though they resist a lot.

But for a moment, lets presume Lore Logic > Gameplay, then Fire Elementals are 100% immune, and our Fie specialized mage is 99% useless against them. Now imagine a situation where guild or group goes to a place like Sol A or B, and leader says: no Fire Mages please - you guys are dead weight here. Sucks to be fire mage right?
Similar situation occurs when you are Frost Mage and no one wants you in a Ice Dungeon because - you are useless.

Now if we expand further - your class mostly casts posing and disease spells - guess what all Undead are immune - because they already dead, you can't poison or sicken them. Also - all elemental creatures also immune - they not living beings.
So we just made playing Necro and Shaman a total nightmare.

So does 100% thematically logical works for you?

If it doesn't then another question arises: certain classes in EQ have bonus spells - like Clerics and Paladins have spells that do high damage to Undead. Its very thematic, but it borders on game balance issues - why there are bonus spells vs some creature type but not others? Why only some classes get these bonus spells?

Why there are no bonus spells vs Insects or Animals? Why Mages and Enchanters don't get these bonus spells at all, but Clerics and Necros do? Also, isn't it disbalancing that only certain creature type get this vs bonus, but other don't?
If you say that - but it is thematically appropriate! Enchanter or Wizard having vs Undead spells do not make any sense! In this case why not Undead and Elementals 100% immune to Poison and Disease? Why not Fire Elemental 100% immune to fire?

I remind you that this is not a discussion about EQ per say, but a theoretical question how much do you value Lore Logic vs Gameplay? How much of Lore Logic you willing to sacrifice to ensure you don't end up in situation where you class is 99% useless vs specific type of monsters?

Would you have preferred that game would be MORE thematically logical? Or less? For example after many years in WoW they completely did away with resistances. So you can hit Fire Elemental just as efficiently with fire spell as with cold spells, poisons, etc etc. Why? For the sake of gameplay.

To conclude - I actually working on my own server design, and since I am very thematically inclined, I have this urge to go the way where - elementals immune to the magic of their own type, undead cannot be poisoned, etc etc. Cleric can blast Undead with such power that become better than Wizards in that area. But them I stop myself and I ask - will this even be playable? How much fun would I have as Fire Mage - if I am not able to able to touch HUGE groups of mobs because of this theme settings?

Feel free to share your thoughts. ;)

:eek: ..you did what?!

Hey it happens all the time, you know... ;)

I always prefer thematic consistency, because the more you like the game, the longer you spend playing it, the more inconsistencies you notice. The Skyrim mod Requiem went this route and it was much harder and also amazing. When something is harder you value it more, which is why we are all here on p99 in the first place. If you are working on a multiplayer situation, just try to add lore-friendly balance where you can (if fire mages can't hurt fire mobs, maybe they can defend against them better than anyone, sense them out of eyesight, magically walk or swim in lava, etc)

If you want to drown small beings, gnomes might have diving helmets, but halflings have only empty jumjum bottles on their head so they should drown faster.

I can buy the issue of fire not being harmful to a fire elemental. There is a certain logic there. But how do you know what can or cannot kill an undead creature? From real life experience? If poison and disease can't kill them, what makes you think fire, ice, or even a sword can do it? By your logic, they are already dead. In which case, you better start running.......

As far as undead goes it would depend on type. Blunt weapons do more damage to skeletons supposedly but fire shouldn't do much at all to bone. Zombies would be more likely to catch fire, however you could further break that down to fresh zombies taking less fire damage than older, dried zombies. A flaming zombie would take time to destroy, accelerated by any clothing it still had on; also any hits the zombie made would include fire damage of it's on until it finally drops.

I agree with OP --- every class should have a really good stregth,

Paladin vs > undead for example

Mage vs > ice

Wizard vs Warrior things

Druid versus magical, unnatrual things? if there were more mage mobs and stuff

Warriors vs Rogues

Rogues vs Wizards

and in PvP there is a little bit of that.

when i started playing in 99, as enchanter, and got minor illusion spell, imagine my surprise when a wolf attacked me as a brazier. wolf, you cant even comprehend what a brazier is, why you bite it?

I don't think that is classic, its probably bugged. I am 39% minor illusion should make u indifferent to everything all the time. Like invisibility. Maybe not undeads, 50/50 on that one.

hey man, you don't know how much shit wolves have had to take from braziers