Quote:
Originally Posted by Archalen
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You could go back and forth on the "this atheist did this, this religious person did that" debate for a long time and get nowhere.
There is nothing inherently good about atheism, but there is nothing inherently bad either. If you suspend logic to become religious, you are in danger of believing other myths also not founded on reason. You can, at your own discretion, run errands for your god that are good for society only if your particular religious worldview happens to be true.
To clarify, I've seen atheists who are uber-rational when it comes to religion, but then suspend logic to believe in the religion of self-correcting free markets. Or believe in the religion of the state (stupidly defend everything their political party does). So my argument is not for atheism, it is for rationality in general.
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My entire argument is for rationality.
1. How is it rational to judge other people? If anyone is honestly arrogant enough to believe that they have this life figured out, then I feel sorry for them. Let people choose their own beliefs.
2. You said markets don't self-correct. I'm not going to debate that, but what would you advocate in their place? Communism? I'm not going to make that leap without you stating it, but I'd ask for clarification. To me, that statement, which sounds like a critique of capitalism, sounds entirely irrational.
3. I believe that my religion is rational for several reasons. Why would it be rational to hurt my mother? She's deeply religious, and if her children became agnostic / atheist, it would destroy her. Hurting one's mother is not a rational course of action. In addition, I already talked about Seventh Day Adventists and how their religion helps them to become healthier. Mormons have BETTER FAMILY STRUCTURES than everyone in the US. Their religious beliefs are very rational compared to so many one parent households in the US. Don't believe me? Look at how many criminals come from households from single mothers. Let me be clear, Mormonism and a two parent household does not preclude poverty, and it certainly isn't the only path to success. I'm just saying, as someone rational, you should take data and statistics for what they say. Strong families produce children that are more likely to become productive members of society.
All of that is to say, rationality isn't as objective as you think. I just gave you my interpretation of statistics, conditions, and the social milieu. If you're telling me that 2 + 2 = 4, then sure, I agree with you. If you're telling me that religion automatically leads to a gullible populace likely to believe in the persecution of gays or lesbians, for example, I don't agree. I believe in God. I don't hate gays. In fact, I support gay marriage. I also thing that a strong two parent household, gay or straight, is much better than a single parent home. Am I unequivocally wrong, and if you believe I am, do you have objective proof of your assertion, or are you, like me, bringing your own biased interpretation of statistics, facts, and life experiences that no human being can separate from judgments that they make every day?
I don't see the arguments against religion, presented in this thread, as being rational at all. Basically, you guys are assuming a lot about religious people, which makes your arguments anything but logical. Logic isn't based on assumption.
Finally, I would like to say that I at elast consider you to be someone who doesn't seem like a bigot. When I hear Kagatob talk about 80% of Christians being trash (2 billions christians meaning ~1.6 billion people are trash in his estimation when he almost certainly hasn't met these people), I really can't even fathom how someone could be so ignorant. At least when you present a point, I see where you're coming from. You sound like many of my friends who don't understand my beliefs. And yes, shocker, I have atheist friends. I think the biggest issue here, is that a lot of people can't agree to disagree. Let me be clear, I do not care whether you believe in my religion. I don't preach it, I don't hand out pamphlets... I am no evangelist. At the same time, I don't appreciate being mocked or derided because I see value in morality and belief in God. I am a rational human being who doesn't take persecution of others lightly. I wish some of you could see that the things you say are:
1. Deeply offensive
2. Based upon crude assumptions of religious people, most likely caricatures of Al-Qaeda and the Westboro Baptist Church. Most religious people are neither them nor saints; most lie somewhere in the moral gray area, like most atheists / agnostics I might add.
I won't claim to be offended; I'm not. But I honestly don't understand how bigotry, even if its against a religion that you believe is vile, is anything other than pure irrationality.