[azxten]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With all due respect, I think this answer shows you do not understand software as well as you think. The P99 server code is closed source. You can't leverage 1000 free workers without giving them some of the closed source to work with. If the developers start handing out code, people will eventually backwards engineer P99, and thus the project collapses due to tons of knock-off servers.

The P99 client side is black boxed, and will never be backwards engineered to a point where we can fix most of the client side bugs.

It really is that simple. I understand your frustration and your feeling you could make this more efficient, but honestly you NEVER develop software like this in the first place (stealing someone else's black boxed client and re-engineering the server from packet sniffing). It is an unsustainable model to begin with, so you need to give a bit more credit where credit is due.

To me it sounds like you just need to put your energy into something that isn't an unsustainable model. You will never get P99 to operate like an open source project. It cannot operate that way without destroying itself.

P99 server is based on EQEmu which is open source. The sticky in this forum quite literally states that most of the P99 code is the same as the EQEmu code. Using the channeling fix I just submitted that is an example of EQEmu code which P99 is using for player channeling, provably so, and is why I submitted a code change suggestion. The suggested code change comes from a decompiled client function and statements on functioning from archived EQ dev posts.

Most of the bug reports in this forum are fixable with EQEmu source changes. It's true. Just like the P99 sticky in this forum states. P99 is mainly database changes and those changes don't really impact other data in the database.

However, that is part of the problem I've been describing. Let's break my 1,000 volunteer leverage example down into something easier. Let's say it's 10 people. I'll use actual bugs on the forum.

1. Immolate not decrementing HP - P99 code
2. Channeling Fix - Researched and code propose done, needs staff response/testing/implementation
3. Persistent instaclick item use - Player complaint about existing functionality, needs staff response if they care
4. Smaller Vessel Drozlin Window - Researched, simple to fix, needs staff response/implementation
5. Cast sight stacking - Possibly P99 code, possibly EQEmu or database fix, unclear
6. Guk pit pathing - Possibly P99 code, could be tested in EQEmu to confirm
7. Make Quillmane classic - P99 code
8. PVP arena bugs - Probably EQEmu code, could be researched and code created
9. INT/WIS over 200 - Out of control, old bug, some research, some claims not enough research, no one seems to know if it still happens or not
10. All guards immune to charm - Researched but unclear on scope, relatively simple change needs staff response

Volunteers:

6. Test if Guk pit pathing is EQEmu code or not. Someone needs to login to EQEmu based server and drag a mob over the pit and report back. If confirmed, someone needs to fix the code or research. Can we assume mobs didn't run away like this in classic or that we don't desire that in any case? If so needs proposed code change.

5. If cast sight wasn't already confirmed fix, someone needs to test in EQEmu to see if the issue is in that data/source

8. Research the PvP arena bugs mentioned, create code if confirmed

9. Someone needs to confirm if this is actually a bug on P99 or not. If so, someone needs to research to prove over 200 in classic didn't give the same value. If so, someone needs to confirm it occurs in EQEmu. If so, someone needs to fix it and provide the fix.

10. Needs more research to define scope of which guards might not be immune

That is 5 volunteers right there you could assign to get to next steps on those bugs. Several of those items have additional steps defined which could involve the other 5 volunteers depending on skill set. I guarantee you there are enough open bugs in those forums which need research, testing, etc in a similar manner to tie up hundreds of volunteers.

Staff:

1. Fixed Immolate bug but it's "pending update", now Druids have to wait likely a long time for a core spell to work again.
2. Needs to respond.
3. Needs to clarify their approach to nerfing items to address raiding abuse, consider community feedback, engage with community.
4. Needs to respond. This is in the "endless trolling / research" phase where the bug has good evidence and there shouldn't be any "code change" required because it's a simple spawn timer update. Wasting people's time currently due to long time without response. May 2018 and still no response? Endless bumping and trolling in thread.
5. Fixed.
6. Needs to respond. Is this intentional? Should it be fixed? Does it need research on how it was in classic? Does it need dev time in EQEmu code? Does it need dev time in P99 code?
7. Fixed but essentially noted "we already planned to fix this." No insight for players spending time researching and bug reporting that they're wasting their time. It's a known issue.
8. Clutter / wasted staff time because bug has no supporting research. Staff shouldn't see this.
9. Needs to respond. Either clarify it's not still happening or just say, "Someone test this and tell us if it's still happening." People wasting their time arguing, bumping, etc for long time. March 2016 and no response?
10. Needs to respond. Do they want more specific research on what guards shouldn't be immune? Has enough evidence been provided now? Is there a suggested code / data change needed? In theory the evidence supports almost every guard was immune, shouldn't we err towards some guards which weren't immune are immune rather than all guards aren't immune because we can't find out which few guards weren't immune?

These are just the top 10 bug reports right now. They're not top in terms of gameplay impact. They're not top in terms of what players want fixed. They're just the top 10 bugs someone has replied to recently. Maybe the top 10 bugs people have been bumping lately and bumping is known to be considered necessary if no response has been provided.

Out of those 10 we have:

3 Fixed with 1 being a "already known" issue several pages long
2 3+ year old bugs involving core mechanics and player satisfaction / epic quest with no response
1 Community dissatisfaction with non-classic changes with no response
3 Needs staff response on next steps or implementation
1 Clutter staff shouldn't have wasted time looking at

That is 6 out of 10 things where a staff member probably should respond to acknowledge the efforts of contributors or address player concerns. Leaving 1 bug the staff shouldn't even see, 1 bug that players spent time reporting and discussing but was already acknowledged as needing to be fixed in the staffs private tracking list, and 2 bugs which got a response and were fixed.

What should the staff do next?

They should be encouraging volunteers and providing a process framework to allow those 5 items that can be addressed by volunteers to be addressed. This means things like defining how much evidence is enough evidence, better instructions on how to setup EQEmu for testing and how to use common GM commands, and providing a process framework to allow moving the bug through each stage towards eventually needing and actually getting a staff response. If a post from a staff member including a lowly forum volunteer that just says, "needs more research" or "try recreating this in eqemu and tell me if it happens there" moves these bugs forward with volunteer effort that is the kind of thing being left on the table today for no reason. No one is going to do those things because they don't know if needs more research, it's too hard to recreate in EQEmu with no guidance, and so on. Just a bit of simple suggestion on next steps drives a larger magnitude of volunteer effort.

They should respond to those bug reports people put effort into which are now in a ready state needing staff response probably including the INT/WIS thread which even though volunteers could check themselves there shouldn't be a thread from 2016 still being bumped to the front page due to no response. How many people have to check and confirm it's still a bug while waiting for a response before it's just disrespectful to volunteers? Also in this case it is trivial for a GM to validate this bug but actually requires a player to be able to get over 200 INT/WIS and be able to calculate their mana pool through casting spells and determine their exact full mana simply through casting. This can't be validated in EQEmu because it would leave the question if the bug exists on P99 or not regardless of EQEmu. A GM can set their INT to 200, look at their mana pool, set it to 220, look at their mana pool, and then respond if it's still a bug or confirm it's an EQEmu bug and someone can try fixing that code. They could also just say, yeah, this isn't a bug on P99, we're closing this 5 year old bug report that has been bumped endlessly cluttering up the forums and wasting volunteer cycles considering it.

They should respond to the community dissatisfaction around non-classic item nerfs and clarify their policy on intentionally introduced non-classic nerfs and why they're trying to address nerfing raiding in such a piece meal fashion while also damaging other item utility outside of raiding. Consider the suggestions of players and the impact their changes are having on the game rather than being hyper focused, as is typical, on raiding and raiders.

They should have processes in place so they don't look at the clutter bug report until it was already vetted by someone trustworthy which they don't seem to have today.

What is actually happening?

A major spell bug is being fixed but not in any immediate sense despite introduced impact from the last patch.
A minor spell bug is being fixed.
Volunteers are arguing with each other and bumping several year old threads waiting for a staff response still. Bugs are sliding down the pages into obscurity if no one bothers to bump them for years in some cases.
Items which have a clear next step for volunteers aren't being outlined anywhere for volunteers. If I'm a coder how do I know which bugs are ready for code changes? If I'm a researcher how do I know which ones need more research? If I submitted the bug how do I know if this is valid or if my research is enough?
Volunteers with "complete" bug reports are left with no response to just keep bumping their threads if they care to do so. Including the epic spawn window change 3 year old bug with no response. Someone put effort into researching that and making a thread but they get no response for 3 years and people just endlessly bump.
Staff is wasting time looking at clutter bug reports with basic problems like lack of any supporting research/evidence.
Players are being ignored when expressing concern around non-classic mechanics which are being nerfed to address raid abuse while those changes did nothing to stop abuse of the actual mechanic which was being abused and now items are becoming useless in solo and group situations.

You're never going to convince me that P99 can't make effective use of volunteer time. This simple example proves there is plenty volunteers could be called on to do. There is plenty they have already done but it's being ignored even when the implementation of a change is simple like a spawn window. Volunteers can filter bug reports so they don't waste staff time as the staff complains about. Volunteers can provide feedback and ideas to improve issues like non-classic item nerfing for raid reasons and this can even extend to them making proposed code changes, like I suggested in that thread flagging raid mobs as such and having central code to change item clicks only on raid mobs, staff just says "Sounds better than nerfing items one at a time, propose a code change that can do that and let us see it."