[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah … so I guess we are done.

Thank you for conceding DSM. No group would take a shaman over a cleric giving up safety on charm breaks, superior buffs, superior emergency healing, complete heal, and the ability to rez.

Best 4 person all caster group is:

Enchanter, enchanter, cleric, X

X can be variable depending on the situation but contenders:

Mage: probably most well rounded for both leveling and safely. Weakness is that they don't open up content that the other 3 couldn't do without the mage.

Necro: not much behind mage for leveling, points for backup rez, FD pulls, and baller in undead areas. Strength is opening up content that really does benefit from having FD.

Enchanter: fastest leveling by far - but doesn't add any additional "extras".

Druid: ultimate quality of life 4th leg. Sows, ports, regens. Will mostly be riding others coat tails but mobility and potential for animal charm.

Wizard: opens up hate/sky. Other than that probably the weakest pick other than the class below.

Least potent X?

Shaman. For this exercise in theorycrafting, the 2nd strongest solo class in the game unfortunately does not make the cut. Yes shaman will add more to the group on average than a wizard or druid but unlike those two classes you don’t really add the QoL mobility of porting. Very powerful class but what the class does do is redundant to what the group already has.

I am glad to see Troxx was able to craft a post without any personal attacks, trolling etc. This is what I was asking for originally, and it took him quite a few tries to get here. This shows he is hopefully learning the lesson that being an internet troll does not pay off in the long run.

It is clear that Troxx hasn't read the answers I provided him, or many of the posts that are in this thread. Hence he keeps asking the same questions over and over. The proof of this behavior has been provided by all of the dodging he has done. He cannot simply hand-wave away the entire thread and declare victory.

I will try to summarize the answers already given (that he hasn't read) once more in an attempt to get Troxx to stop dodging. If he does not read this post, I cannot help him.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would like for you to explain why you think that would be preferable to a 1 second targeted aoe stun (or a single target stun - both of which will be on the competent cleric’s casting bar in this group) followed by superior blast heals.

The way you are phrasing this question is incorrect. The thread is about the best four person caster/priest group, not the best group that deals with charm breaks. Dealing with charm breaks is merely one facet of the discussion. I am looking at everything the Shaman has to offer vs. the Cleric, and making my decision based on that.

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I kind of agree actually that Malo is the correct response to a normal, single mob charm break in many situations. The assumption should be that the enchanter can recover correctly themselves, and the primary goal should be getting a malo refresh in before they recharm it in order to minimize charm breaks. If the enchanter hasn't landed stun by the time malo finishes, you probably need to get in melee and flash of light it. If they're going to die before you can land malo + flash of light (which I believe DSM has correctly noted should not be the case if you're using Rune and Bedlam), you need to see he's dying super fast and duck Malo to flash of light immediately.

This explains my position quite well. When I look at this group, I am making the assumption that it is full of level 60s, and the players are skilled. Enchanters can solo a lot of the content this four player group is going to be doing. Throwing out a rough number, I'd say a skilled Enchanter could handle at least 70% of charm breaks on their own, without any outside help. If you have a second Enchanter in the group, the odds of handling a bad charm break increases, as you have two Enchanters stunning instead of one. So you could argue the Cleric is only helping maybe 20% of the time for those few bad charm breaks that go terribly wrong.

Let's look at Allure, which has a 19 minute duration at level 60, assuming no charm breaks. This means you are getting 3 charm breaks minimum per hour. Let's say the average charm break per hour is 10 times, including the three charm break minimum. This means the Cleric's blast heals and stuns were only helping on 2 out of the 10 charm breaks, using the numbers above. Most of the charm breaks could have been handled without the Cleric. Malo reduces the number of breaks per hour, so it is reducing the odds of getting a bad charm break naturally. Both Shamans and Clerics are helping out with reducing the odds of a bad charm break, just through different means.

Based on my experience playing with skilled Enchanters (and it seems like 7thgate's experience too), I'd take less charm breaks per hour over a bit more charm break security any day. We've already explained the ways in which Shamans can handle bad charm breaks in previous posts, and they have a lot of tools to handle these scenarios too. It is incorrect to claim a Shaman cannot save an Enchanter during a bad charm break. On the rare occasion an Enchanter does die, a pocket Cleric can handle the res. Many solo Enchanters already have pocket Clerics to do this. It is no different in a group of four players.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1) fact that cleric can buff everyone up a good 750-850 hp with their unique line above what FoS/stamina can give a caster (minus their self shield line that does not stack)

Remember that a Shaman will be Torpor Tanking in a group of level 60s. Let's look at a situation where you have one mob charmed, and one mob being attcked. If a bad charm break occurs, the mob being attacked would continue to attack the Shaman, rather than go to the Enchanter. If you were doing a Cleric/Enchanter combination, both mobs would go to the Enchanter in the worst scenario of a root break on the mob being attacked. The Enchanter is saving hundreds of HP by only getting hit by one mob instead of two. They are also increasing the chances of their stun spell going off, as they are getting attacked by one mob instead of two. This reduces the gap between Shaman and Cleric HP buffs in the scenario of a bad charm break.

Based on my years of playing P99, max HP is often a bit overrated when it comes to most single group content. It is generally doing nothing in a skilled group that can control their environment, and only comes into play in the occasional bad moment. A skilled group can reduce the odds of a bad moment occurring via skill. This is especially true when you have Enchanters in the group. Shaman/Enchanter/Monk is a powerful trio that doesn't use Cleric HP buffs or Cleric healing, and they do just fine.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) the inherent value and superiority of complete heal when you’re eventually going to be hunting with pets with >7k hp

A Shaman Torpor Tanking means the pets do not need to be CH'ed most of the time. In the rare occurrence where a really bad break occurs and a pet takes a lot of damage, you can swap over to a pocket cleric and CH the pet. Or just heal the pet with Torpor while the group recovers if the situation was bad enough to cause the group downtime. Or you can temporarily uncharm the pet and let it recover it's HP naturally.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3) the actual fact that giving up on cleric this 4 group that it LIMITED to only 4 characters and all have to be casters … does not have rez.

A skilled group is not generally going to be doing a lot of resing to begin with. When you need it, a Pocket Cleric or including a Necro is the answer here. Leveling a Cleric to 49 is not difficult, and many players already have pocket clerics. People are not going stop using pocket clerics simply because they have limited themselves to a group of four casters/priests. If you don't want to use a pocket cleric for whatever reason, you could go Shaman/Enchanter/Enchanter/Necromancer instead. Two Enchanters are providing more than enough DPS already. If you want to kill Vaniki, Shaman/Cleric/Enchanter/Enchanter should work, and that is a great group combo too.

Unlike yourself, I am not closed to the possibility of taking both a Shaman and a Cleric. I said as much in the first page of this thread. The Shaman vs. Cleric debate is only in the scenario where a group wants to take one or the other. Luckily pocket Cleric's exist. You can level a Shaman to 60 and a pocket Cleric to 49 no problem if you do not want a Cleric and Shaman as two mains in the group.