[Stryker85]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A bunch of people have posted saying outside buffs shouldn't be allowed for melee as the highest tier description

If you can show me LEGITIMATE posts from "a bunch" of people saying that they think outside buffs shouldn't be allowed for melee as the highest tier, then I will stop arguing completely and admit defeat, and you can just impose your will as the Solo Artist Challenge dictator, who doesn't even play EQ anymore. But I think you and I both know that you won't be able to do that. There's been literally ONE SINGLE other person in this entire thread that held the same opinions as you and Samoht. One person is not "a bunch" or even close to a majority.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

that's irrelevant to the question of "what is the best a class can do with no outside buffs and no consumables".

You are the only one insisting that this is the sole purpose of the challenge. To me the purpose of the challenge is for every class to have a set of parameters to compete under that challenges them to complete kills with the most difficult circumstances possible for their class. For melee classes, the most difficult circumstances that they can actually kill a god tier mob under, is buffed with no consumables. There is a reason why NO MELEE has EVER completed a god mode kill without buffs and no consumables, because its literally impossible.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Regarding balance, you don't seem to realize what a big advantage Monks have in a world where Lull is coded classically, which the p99 devs have said will be implemented at some point.

Alright now you lost me, what the hell are you even talking about now?? What would lull coding have anything to do with monks? I'm dying to hear this.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Polls are manipulated. People who care to have an opinion should speak up. And people have in this thread. The community wants a "no outside buffs/consumables" tier.

That's real convenient coming from someone that claims everyone agrees with you, but yet can't show any proof of that what-so-ever. When challenged with a way to prove who the player base really sides with, you come up with this lame ass excuse. We can use a discord poll in the UN or p99 general channel. How do you expect that to be "manipulated" exactly? I'll be surprised if you even make an attempt to answer this, because you know this is a ridiculous excuse.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's exactly what the updated tiers incentivize.
The point is to try and see how far each class can get with each encounter. It's not a competition of trying to be an S+ Monk vs an S+ Enchanter.
If someone wants to "beat" the accomplishments of an Enchanter who has done 10 S+ God Mode kills, they need to play an Enchanter themselves and do 11 S+ God Mode kills. Just as the Enchanter player would also need to play Monk themselves if they want to "beat" the record of a Monk player.

That is just your prerogative and you trying to impose your will for what YOUR vision of the challenge should be, but guess what? It's not just up to you. It's up to everyone that actually plays this game. And I can guarantee you that there are more people that would prefer a balanced ruleset that doesn't gatekeep melee from ever achieving the top rank possible. If you think only casters should be able to achieve an S+ Rank, then why even include melee in the competition at all? What's the point of having a rank that only 1 subset of classes can achieve? Under that logic, melee should have their own competition. That would be stupid and unnecessary though when the rules can be structured to accommodate melee too.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It needs to be fair and balanced in the sense of recognizing the different ways to kill a MOB. Doing it without no outside buffs/consumables is a factual tier. If that is not recognized, then it's inherently not fair.

What it does NOT need to do, and can never do, is try to balance things between classes. What people need to focus on doing is pushing each class to its maximize, in whichever tier they are interested in doing that.

Again, this is just your opinion that you're trying to force on the rest of us. The original creator of the challenge did not agree with that mindset at all. That was the whole reason why melee were allowed to have buffs to begin with, and why there was no stipulation for no consumables at the top rank, because he understood that melee would never be able to compete for that rank otherwise. Melees either need buffs, or they need consumables, they cannot kill anything past the grandmaster tier without both.

I agree that there should be a place to recognize a no consumable kill, which is why when I made the changes attempting to compromise with you, I edited the S+ rank to be either self buffs only OR no consumables. This allows melee to compete for the top rank under the hardest conditions possible for their class, which is the whole point of the ranking system.

You just conceded earlier in one of your recent posts that "Completing an encounter at S- tier with a certain class could be comparatively more impressive than doing it at S+ tier with another class." If that's the case and a kill like this which has never been done IS considered to be more impressive, rarer, and harder to achieve, then why do you think it deserves a lesser rank than a class that's done it numerous times already and can do it with relative ease in comparison?

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

God Mode kills by melee are possible without outside/buffs consumables.

Ohh, is that why its literally NEVER been done before by ANY melee toon EVER? Something tells me you have never played a melee character at level 60, much less tried to solo anything difficult with it. Please show me ANY evidence what-so-ever of any melee character EVER killing a god tier mob without buffs OR consumables... you can't. Its never been done and never will be done... because its 100% impossible.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Feel free to talk on discord if you want. Your writing sounds like another forum user.

I've been asking you to chat on discord for a while now. Clearly we are making zero progress in this thread. Unless you want Loramin to throw both of our suggestions out and revert things back to the original challenge rules, then I suggest we work on some kind of compromise.