[Siberious]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I truly don't understand how I'm "all over the place"; I've continuously repeated the same, very basic, points, over and over throughout this thread:

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

2) Prior to 60/Torpor, HP help you survive and level faster than mana does

3) At 60/with Torpor, for the kinds of fights I've listed (eg. PoM A4, Efreeti, WW Dragons, Crypt in Seb) the hard part of winning the fight isn't having enough mana to cast what you need: the hard part is surviving long enough to land slow.

If you don't want to contest those points, great: talk about your PE hammer-wielding ogre and how he proves non-raid Barbs should invest in Wisdom. Post magelos of what a Shaman looks like at the very end of their career and use that as justification for why they should have less HP for the 99% rest of their career.

More power to you, but personally this mindless arguing is exhausting me, so I'm simply not going to reply to any more posts here unless someone posts a logical argument or evidence that actually contradicts the above points.

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

No barb shaman does, period. This isn't some point people are trying to dodge cause they can't dispute it, it's simply irrelevant to the conversation. I also proved you can max it, if you want, with very little detriment to anything else (see my previous posts).

2) Prior to 60/Torpor, HP help you survive and level faster than mana does

Lol, no one is saying hps don't help you survive. However, the vast majority of time you spend leveling and pre-torpor is 50+ and you aren't face tanking much at that point if you're attempting to level or gain plat in any sort of efficient fashion. So no, the extra +20 sta compared to +20 wisdom (This is the actual conversation we're trying to have) does not help you level faster. You can get whatever spread of HP/Mana you want off of gear to help you level faster in the fashion you want, but this point is again half baked on your side, no one is contesting HPs being very important, we're talking about starting stats, and the +20 sta doesn't help you level faster, and in reality the +20 wis wouldn't either, they're both marginal.

3) At 60/with Torpor, for the kinds of fights I've listed (eg. PoM A4, Efreeti, WW Dragons, Crypt in Seb) the hard part of winning the fight isn't having enough mana to cast what you need: the hard part is surviving long enough to land slow.

This is also misleading. Not only because the +20 sta at char creation is very likely irrelevant in these cases (again, no one is contesting hps being important, just talking about starting stats), but the vast majority of the time you're dying in these scenarios is because you are oom AND run out of hps (I've done all of these, so yes i'm familiar with them). This is because you're not stable without slow+torp, but you have plenty of time to malo/root/kite/attempt slows/pet tanks/heal self etc. So unless you're just standing there spamming slows and not healing yourself or trying to kite/CC, you aren't dying with much mana left if any. Again, hps are clearly important. You need them to solo these types of encounters, but the way you're presenting it as if the +20 sta is going to save your life here is misleading, because it's almost never going to save you, as you'll almost always go oom by the time you're dead.

If you don't want to contest those points, great: talk about your PE hammer-wielding ogre and how he proves non-raid Barbs should invest in Wisdom. Post magelos of what a Shaman looks like at the very end of their career and use that as justification for why they should have less HP for the 99% rest of their career.

More power to you, but personally this mindless arguing is exhausting me, so I'm simply not going to reply to any more posts here unless someone posts a logical argument or evidence that actually contradicts the above points.

I clearly contested these points, though I don't expect you to consider them contested based on previous experience with trying to have this conversation. Also I don't have a PE hammer-wielding ogre (again, that's someone else), I offered to make a magelo, you asked for a it, and I provided it, so don't pretend I made one of a shaman at the end of their "career" when I very much didn't.

Also the +sta is objectively worse than the +wis while leveling in my opinion, especially given you have much better +ac/sta/hp combos for armor options on gear than wisdom/mana. You get better returns on the +wis than +sta through the entirety of time playing. So it makes sense to take the armor that has better overall combinations of ac and/or hp and/or sta and bulk up on the wisdom at char select since it's a single stat option, and not combined with other stats. And as demonstrated, you can cap sta without starting with more than 105, with very little determent to other stats, but you'll never cap wisdom without severe loss of hps.