[Siberious]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never said that +20 of either is going to make a huge difference; to the contrary I wrote:



And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.



You and I have had very different experiences in these fights. Just to (again) make sure we're on the same page, we're talking about mobs like 22 in PoM, or Hierophant in Crypt, correct?

The vast, vast majority of the times I've died in such fights, I've had plenty of mana, but I couldn't land a slow (or reslow) in time and I died from lack of HP. Only in the extreme minority ... I'd guess well under 5% ... did I land a slow, get the fight going, battle the mob for awhile, and land a re-slow, yet I somehow ran out of mana and died.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I didn't start at max mana in any of those fights: they were always ones where I started with less than max because I was trying to beat someone to a mob. Honestly, it's almost unheard of for Loramin to start a fight with full mana and even get to OOM at the end (dead or alive), because Cann + Torpor is a really good combo.

But again, I'd welcome evidence, or just a good logical argument, for why I'm doing them wrong and most other Shaman would burn through their entire mana pool before dying.



I did ask: A) I wanted to get us on the same page, but also I'll admit: B) I wanted you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with your argument, and you (and others) did so wonderfully.

You all provided Magelos of a Shaman who's finished 99% of their Shamaning ... further supporting my point that the kind of Shaman we're talking about (Barb, non-high-end-raid) won't hit the Stamina cap until they're almost done playing.



The fact that you even wrote that sentence, where you used the word "objectively" in literally the same sentence that you said "in my opinion" just shows you don't even understand what the words you're using mean. It's like someone saying something is hot and cold at the same time: how do you talk to someone like that? But I genuinely do appreciate you actually addressing my points (at least mostly)!

And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.

I have explained myself here multiple times. I'd rather have the extra mana while leveling, max level, and after torp. This is because the extra hps from the sta isn't going to help me achieve any of the prior any more efficiently than if I had the extra mana from +wis. I even think the extra mana is more helpful for casting more spells while leveling or farming because most everything 40+ is root rotting if solo unless you exclusively tank/spank with a JBB (which I don't do and wouldn't plan on doing except for a certain window of leveling from when it's useable into the low 50s). I can always get to 205 sta eventually with gear if I want. So since there is the possibility that my +20 sta will be wasted eventually, i'll go with the +20 wis that won't ever go to waste. It's not exclusively about helping more, it's also about what makes sense in the long run to maximize my stats. I also happen to think it's more helpful however.

You and I have had very different experiences in these fights. Just to (again) make sure we're on the same page, we're talking about mobs like 22 in PoM, or Hierophant in Crypt, correct?

The vast, vast majority of the times I've died in such fights, I've had plenty of mana, but I couldn't land a slow (or reslow) in time and I died from lack of HP. Only in the extreme minority ... I'd guess well under 5% ... did I land a slow, get the fight going, battle the mob for awhile, and land a re-slow, yet I somehow ran out of mana and died.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I didn't start at max mana in any of those fights: they were always ones where I started with less than max because I was trying to beat someone to a mob. Honestly, it's almost unheard of for Loramin to start a fight with full mana and even get to OOM at the end (dead or alive), because Cann + Torpor is a really good combo.

But again, I'd welcome evidence, or just a good logical argument, for why I'm doing them wrong and most other Shaman would burn through their entire mana pool before dying.

My comment on running oom and dying around the same time is very specific to prior to landing the first slow. If the mob is slowed, you win, unless you simply aren't geared to handle the duration of the fight of the slowed mob. You can kite 22 until slowed, so mana definitely plays a role. You don't need to engage it prior to it being slowed. If slow falls off because of reslow, mana is helpful because the only way it doesn't get reslowed is if you ran oom trying to reslow it. I can't see a scenario where I have tons of mana and reslow didn't land in time, unless it was user error and I went for reslows too late (this has happened of course, everyone spaces out sometimes).

Similar to 22 a WW dragon isn't gonna get face tanked the entire time while trying to slow it. You can make some space for at least a couple slow attempts during pull to kill spot, then torping self and trying more slows.

In crypt you can attempt to malo/root take small step back to get a slow attempt in, at least 1-2 times throughout the slow attempts while torping self. Less room to work with here but there is some flexibility. Even worst case tossing a chloroblast between waiting for slow gem to refresh to buy you some more hps between slow attempts can help render you oom around the time you run out of hps and die, but at least you get an extra slow attempt off.

I did ask: A) I wanted to get us on the same page, but also I'll admit: B) I wanted you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with your argument, and you (and others) did so wonderfully.

You all provided Magelos of a Shaman who's finished 99% of their Shamaning ... further supporting my point that the kind of Shaman we're talking about (Barb, non-high-end-raid) won't hit the Stamina cap until they're almost done playing.

Again, I believe you're off base here. This shaman was not anywhere close to done with 99% of there shamaning, I completely disagree with that. I've listed and showed multiple times plenty of more upgrades to be had, that take significant time. I showed it was possible to cap stamina, while also continuing to acknowledge you realistically won't cap it for a long time, and that's okay because i'd prefer the extra mana from the +20 wis regardless, and because I think it's at least as, if not more, helpful than the hps from the sta, and it'll never go to waste.

The fact that you even wrote that sentence, where you used the word "objectively" in literally the same sentence that you said "in my opinion" just shows you don't even understand what the words you're using mean. It's like someone saying something is hot and cold at the same time: how do you talk to someone like that? But I genuinely do appreciate you actually addressing my points (at least mostly)!

It's just a miss from my dozens of edits for these responses before I send them. To clarify, the "in my opinion" part should have been removed, I was shifting thought from it being an opinion, to thinking it's just objectively a better long term choice to take the +20 wis than the +20 sta, albeit a very minor difference, but technically a better choice nonetheless.