[Ennewi]

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412540

Patch Notes: Friday, December 23rd, 2022

Rogean: Bards are now capped at 140 aggro per song/spell/proc in all circumstances.

By most accounts, throughout the classic timeline and beyond, bards were described as having high taunt by way of song. Commonly referred to now as snap aggro, specific songs were known to generate considerably more hate than others, so much so that bards were used as tanks/offtanks. It appears the majority of songs that caused aggro were lower level versions, though there are many comments made post-2001 that suggest other high level songs had a similar effect.

The complaints about their aggro were made regularly enough that the developers were said to have lowered it once while also giving the class Song of Dawn and boosting its defensive skills. Below are a number of those complaints, with a few exceptions, along with guides and detailed accounts describing how aggro was used/managed.


https://web.archive.org/web/20001101...s/b_pcomb.html

04:28:12 Nov 01, 2000

2. Bard as Tank
　As mentioned above, Bards can wear armor up to Plate, and it seems hard. But can you be a Tank that attacks the opponent you should defeat first (probably the strongest opponent) and takes on that attack yourself? If you ask me (currently level 27), no . Of course, at lower levels, you can also try to act as a Tank. For example, up to level 25, it might be possible somehow--even though it's far inferior to your main job and you'll have to bear the risk of death. The reason for the number 25 is that the skill cap for the Dodge skill is 125.

　I think that Bard is fatal as a Tank for the following two points.

　　・Only Dodge has defensive skills, and the skill cap is low (Max125)
　　・Other warrior-type characters who don't have much HP themselves

　seem to have at least two defensive skills. Dodge and Parry. At least if the activation probability is the same, than a bird that only has Dodge... how many times longer? So what is Bard's Dodge and supposedly high AC for?--I think both Bard's defense and Dodge are negative, unlike Tank classes like Warrior. Bard's song has a strong taunt ability and is easy to attract enemies, so naturally it is easy to get attacked, and it is often the case that you will be hit before you know it. And it is thought that it is to endure until the party members realize that, or until they are free to deal with them.
　Bards are not good for tanks. However, if there is no Tank type class, you may have to play the role of Tank. At that time, make sure you have a healer, clear it with a rush, or think about your enemy's choice. Even if he wasn't playing Tank, death would be close to Bard..

2. Bard as Sub Tank
　Bard wrote that he could not serve as a Tank. What about SubTank? The Sub Tank here is more of an Assiter and an Attacker, and it is a place to peel off small fish that have moved to a caster etc. (There are various definitions of Tank, Sub Tank, etc. Sub Tank = Attacker, should be a SubTank, and the Tank is the role of taunting and taking damage, or the Attacker and the Tunt role are the same as the Tank... well, that's the definition here).
　As a Sub-Tank, Bard would be useful to some extent. If you have Dual Whield and equip a weapon, you have a decent amount of offensive power. And you can also tear off enemies that have moved to the caster, if you use a song with a bard, for example, the level 24 Snare Song has a strong taunt, and after a few shots it will turn to you, and the level 27 Charm Song You can also turn enemies into pets to buy you some time—easily possible. As a sub-tank, it may be best for a bird to act while watching the battle situation. But of course, don't forget your vulnerability. In any case, it would be meaningless to take damage from the scraped small fish and trouble the healer's hands...

https://web.archive.org/web/20010413.../brd/song2.htm

02:09:15 Apr 13, 2001

Part 3 About Taunt performance

Songs that affect enemies have a particularly strong Taunt ability.
Sleep, Charm, Lv20 speeddown, Lv23 Snare, etc. These outperform the Tank's Taunt.
The taunt performance of songs that affect allies is moderate.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010821...rd/intro.htm#2

c. Comparison with Tank
Because Plate can be worn and the song has a strong taunt effect, it tends to be thought that it is close to Tank.
However, in fact, it has less HP and only defense skill Dodge, and it
is quite easy to die compared to Tank because it is targeted by all surrounding enemies.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010713...q/brd/song.htm

Lv15 Sleep song

...

・Punch an enemy while using SubTank's Sleep. It can surpass warrior's Taunt etc. If MainTank's HP is low, Bard can tank as a sub, which will increase the endurance of the entire party.
When there are few enemies, this is better than focusing on Sleep.

Lv23 Snare song
It is often referred to as the Root song, but it actually has the same effect as Snare, which can be used by DRU, and is a song that slows down the enemy's attack speed and movement speed.
Attack speed reduction is almost the same as Lv20, and seems to stack with Lv20.
Movement speed is reduced to the point where fleeing enemies are about to die and move a little faster than they started walking slowly. When the enemy's physical strength is about 1/4, the foot will stop completely.
The difference with Root is that if you sing to an enemy who has run away, he will not fight back after stopping.
The same thing is that it has a terrific taunt effect (lol), easily surpassing War's taunt.
The advantage is that you can hit inexhaustibly and you can use it while chasing the fleeing enemy, but the effect time is about 15 seconds.

As of September 1999, all movement-type magic is Pacth, and the specs have changed over and over, so compatibility with each magic is a little confusing. The enemy's bogus Indoor Sow cannot be erased, but Root seems to be able to negate it... no good? (Even if Root disappears, if you're 15 seconds too slow, you can't escape).

Lv27 Charm song

...

The Taunt of Taunt Charm is intense, and the enemy once angered by Chram will not peel off easily. Conversely, you can also use this as a Taunt. It is also possible to taunt multiple enemies using the method described above. …Why did Bard memorize this, me (sweat.

　It is linked with the Taunt effect of Range Songs such as Substitute Sleep and Support Songs. I personally prefer to use it. After putting multiple enemies to sleep, Bard itself becomes a target from multiple enemies, and charms one to retreat before the enemy wakes up. Then "Pet Guard me".

https://web.archive.org/web/20010821...d/tactics2.htm

　When I went to the back of the building, it seemed that most of the cleaning had already been completed. When you get a friend to join you and go inside, the enemy Spwan is out of alignment. If you are fighting while thinking that this is easy, the only tank in the party will "sleep".

I said, ``Is that the role of Tank?''
Everyone said, ``Yes.''

Guuu, the enemy's Spwan is out of place for now, so I'll manage somehow. Although the enemy is strong, most of them are undead that are easy to kill instantly. However, it is not as hard as Tank, so it will be a guarantee of your life if you use a powerful Taunt and make sure that the cast of the rear guard is never interrupted. Then the song is Charm . A weapon in both hands is better for Taunt than a shield in the left hand.

Will Tomahork's short-term invincibility special effect make up for the lack of defense ? Once you reach Lv25, the enemies you fight in parties are often blue, so it's been activated quite often, and recently I've been using Tomahork again.

However, when it comes to attacking after Charming, in order to ensure Chram, I want to equip an instrument first. It takes some time before you can expect the taunt effect, including punching, so it's not good for the back guard to suddenly hit attack magic. There is also the possibility that the song will be resisted. If the enemy POPs, I'll charm it anyway, so even if I cast magic, I'll ask my friends to use stun magic (if possible, I'd like to tell them to wait until Charm, but I can't say that to HAG).

In the meantime, for some reason, CLR, who was on the 3rd floor as reinforcements (even if the floor is different, you can heal and attack from the bottom, so there is no problem) brings 3 enemies . Ugh, my HP is pretty low. Charm while punching enemies. The first one was torn off.
Press the NearNPC key to hit the second one. Damn, punching and a little taunt effect song (note: probably stronger than War's) won't come off. It can't be helped, so Charm (Area Sleep seems to provoke underground enemies in this place, so it's forbidden). It also peeled off. In the meantime, CLR Heal seems to be done to some extent.

The impression that I tried is "Heal taunts are more likely to occur than holding down enemies with range Sleep, but if there are a certain number of enemies, it's easier to leave the tank to fight".

Recently, I've heard from some HiLvBards that "range sleep is dangerous in advanced dungeons", and when the number of enemies is usually within the expected range, use Buff songs, Let's practice how to fight with Lv28 stun (sleep) and Charm to support Taunt Work.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000510...ML/000541.html

Marziale
Member
Posts: 31
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-05-2000 08:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Marziale Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Aye, tis a hard choice....Marziale is a lvl 20 Bardiebabe and Vonda is of the 11th lvl mage.
I LOVE Marz, but mostly because I have friends to group her with. Many of the bard songs tend to agro creatures because you are casting on the whole group, so a good group is essential especially if you opt to put down your weapon and play an instrument during battle!!!

https://web.archive.org/web/20040124...p?p=474896&amp

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<Ninina>
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2001 1:20 pm Post subject: Aggro lowerer Reply with quote
I think that bards need to get a song or ability such as evade to lower their aggro on mobs. When don't have the hit points to take a beating and rogues AND enchanters get a spell/ability to acomplish this, and are we not a cross between them? It seems clear to me that we need this added to our abilities to balance us out, as atleast 5 other classes can do it I think it falls under a jack of all trades skill
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Carlota
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Joined: 26 Mar 2001
Posts: 79
Location: Orleans, Ontario
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2001 7:40 pm Post subject: Aggro lowerer Reply with quote
Actually there are exellent weapons which procs a spell which lowers MoB agro.
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<Garathe>
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2001 6:28 am Post subject: Aggro lowerer Reply with quote
There also is a song that lowers agro. It is just at a high level

song of the dawn lever 53 song is the one

Garath Willowreed
The Bard of K'ardi Drasad

https://web.archive.org/web/20010727...s.asp?&song=40

27 Solon's Song of the Sirens Charms the target and turns it into your pet for up to 15 seconds. Highly dependent on your charisma. Will not work on 37+ mobs, but there is a charm upgrade by then. High aggro effect, but you can turn that into your advantage when the mob is aggroing on a caster. Useful when your party pulls more than 1 mob, put one on your side!

https://web.archive.org/web/20010204...ML/053745.html

NadiraAndante
Station Member posted 01-31-2001 04:09 PM
Alright Absor...

...

This is why we need better defensive skills. Even though verant over time did tune down our hate from songs a little (6way constant helping spells really really used to piss off monsters worse than now, and even now it's pretty horrifying) I will bet you that anytime there's a train in a plane the bards will go down first. The only exception would be someone doing big AEs, but since I play on PvP you don't really do that in raids lest you kill your own raid team.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010222.../000665-3.html

Mulamasi_TZ
Station Member posted 02-18-2001 04:56 PM
Lullaby (15) - Keep it AE, remove the secondary resist and make insturment use help alot. Risk vs Reward here, the bard is racking up alot of hate on all the mobs at once with this and a few resists could mean their death.

SIRANUI-ToD
Station Member posted 02-19-2001 02:11 AM

I'm sorry, Absor; I do not find this a very good list for the following reasons. Are these the only issues to be addressed? What I'd like to see is a few comments about where you (VI) see the bard in your game and what you see as reasonable and not; a background for the bard class if you will. This will help steer us - at the moment we are a jack-of-all trades class and in many ways don't know what to comment on, except for existing bugs. Can we please have feedback on status items NOT on your list, and reasons for non-implimentation; that would make me a lot happier.
Predominatly, you're dealing with existing bugs, rather than sailing 'fresh' waters. Yes, we all would love bug fixes, but we'd also like enhances in line with other classes and the use of a little imagination on the development team's behalf, rather than just fixing existing code. You seem to be taking the path of least resistance. Fixing what was broken is not balancing.

Again, a few points that spring to mind:

1) Give us an icon for mana song. This will save us getting told 'play mana' at least once an hour and would be an across-the-board benifit.

2) Increase in defense cap makes no sense and seems to be a simple 'keep-em-happy' enhancement route to take. post 50 (when extra defence raises kick in), we do not have the need for it (we are non-taunters and do not tend to get hit much unless we're on CC). From a RP point of view, why should an entertainer have the same defense as a knight or highly trained warrior? Jumping back to thread 5, yes defence is hard to raise, but it does happen eventually, as higher XP demands give greater oppertunity at increase per level. Aggro list manipulation is a good way to get increases. Ask for mobs to be rooted - then either manipulate aggro to get hit heck, I can taunt off a 59th ranger in this situation, much to his chargrin), or simply ask tanks to not taunt. I would rather be enhanced in another direction that makes sense.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010222.../000665-5.html

Starling_Bane
Station Member posted 02-22-2001 06:45 AM
Ignore the trolling. Any bards who are as disgusted as I am with the bard issues (or lack of) addressed by the latest patch, please post your discontent. Reasoned arguement is obviously ignored, all we have left is complaint. Better still, vote with your feet & quit!
*Maybe* some of the bard problems raised will be addressed in a future patch, but, once again, the bards are left to last (probably to be overlooked yet again).

1) Increased defense cap.
Great for the lower level bards who have such a high aggro. Congratulations on this benefit, I don't begrudge you. From the point of view of a level 55 bard though, it's useless. I find it impossible to even generate any aggro at this level - I wish I could.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010215...ML/055105.html

kfsone
Station Member posted 02-05-2001 01:55 PM
With regards to the new changes from Test.

...

Instead of seriously investigating this, you simply give us warrior like defense? The problem with this is that it is ill considered given the numerous defensive songs that a bard has available to them. Bards are soft and squishy and create lots of agro. This is the baseline challenge of the class. What justification is there for increasing our defensive capabilities?

MMMyra
Station Member posted 02-05-2001 02:53 PM
I wanted to throw my own two cents in on this, especially since most of the comments here seem to focus on the high end game and less on stuff below 40 to 45. My bard isn't 40 yet and issues for her are different, and fit into a few broad categories. I think one of the core balancing issues is how our songs seem to be valued for balancing.
First at all levels we seem to be evaluated as a partial tank, well depending on who you ask we are a pure caster after some level in the high 20s or 30s doing very little tanking because we have this massive aggro rate and pure caster level hp, and both weak combat defense and offense. At some point our songs must be powerful enough to compete with pure casters for effectiveness because we are effectively casters that stop tanking later than other casters, or we must have our combat skills increased in some way to make it realistic that we are a secondary tank.

...

The other part of the miscalculation is based on aggro. I am the queen of aggro. I have been in a number of parties with two characters with taunt and a rogue backtabbing, and I am the target for the mob or mobs. I understand that it used to be worse, it is still way ahead of any other class. I think this is partly true because it seems like a lot of our songs are evaluated for aggro based on their potential effect instead of actual. So for example our healing song seems to aggro as if I am healing every party member, even if only one of them is injured. For our buffs and debuffs we are hit a for aggro in a way that no other class is. Mobs don't get pissed at any other class for buffing party members because they buff in down time, and/or one party member at a time. We get hit with agro for buffing, and that haste component falling on the cleric sitting medding to heal counts. And unlike any other caster we need to be close in to the fight to have our buffs, and debuffs work, making it much easier for the mobs to hit us. We don't have significantly more HP than those casters who get to sit back further from the fight. They aren't immune to aggro, but tend to be in much better shape than us, by being further from the fight.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../055105-3.html

RomanyFox
Station Member posted 02-08-2001 07:10 AM

...

In addition, the dev team needs to realize that most bard songs DO have a mana cost. In the virtual mana you aren't returning to the casters/healers AND in blood. Bard mana is mostly paid in blood (aggro) - my hits are what race down as I play, the question isn't whether I'll be OOM but OOhitpoints and thus unable to contribute a spell. While I'm chain casting snare 12 times in order to keep it more or less on for 30 seconds i'm being beaten on - draining mana from the healers to keep me alive and running the risk of dying for what is essentially a no-cost spell for a ranger or other snare-enabled class.

So.... my suggestions:

1) lower restists on Snare, Lull, Lullabye, Mez, Charm lines to roughly half what they are now.

I know this seems insanely high but the gap here between use and non-use is HUGE. These things grow increasingly weak as we progress in levels and thus we become harder and harder to justify as doing anything other than mana song.

2) lower resists for other bard songs by a reasonable factor - perhaps 10% - to compensate for the aggro effects which are still extremely punishing.

Plundar
Station Member posted 02-08-2001 09:04 AM

...

5)Our TAUNT skill is pathetic when I need to taunt a MOB off another party member it is almost impossible. My only way to do this now is to charm the MOB. From levels 1 to 25 we can't keep the MOBs off us, after that I can't get there attention, even our mezs don't make the MOB forget about the other party member it was chasing. Perhaps we need the TAUNT skill or a song with an extremely high aggro value but without the charm.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../055105-5.html

Steevin
Station Member posted 02-10-2001 10:33 AM

...

Dalakar_Daystar: "Often, If my group is in trouble, I'll fire up one of my super aggro-AoE songs, or, these days, start charming and mezzing left and right, and tell everyone to get the hell out of there. Assuming they obey me, I'm left with a bunch of mobs ticked off at me, the HP of a pure caster/priest type, and probably not enough AC to offset that ... A Well-played Bard dies often, so that his group may live. And most of my regular grouping partners will back this up, The Bard dies first."

...

You, and people like you, die because of the way you play your character, not because you play a Bard. I could just as easily take an enchanter and say the same thing, or a cleric, or a warrior. I could taunt every single mob onto me and die for the group so they can get away. Doesn't make me a group god, just makes me dead.

Digory
Station Member posted 02-10-2001 08:27 AM

...

I think the idea of providing bards better defense skills is very good. A lot of the songs are defensive in nature already. If the bard is taking a ton of damage (often) while singing defense songs, he doesnt last long. These defense songs (for example rhythm line and psalm line) mostly stack with other lines. That differs from the buffing lines.

...

SO maybe the enhancements are
1) Reduce taunt on some defensive songs or reduce natural taunt. Except for damage songs and healing, the monster just doesn't recognize the effect because it's subtle?

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../055105-2.html

Scythe
Station Member posted 02-06-2001 08:00 PM
A few ideas that would make the bard slightly more group friendly at higher levels:
1) Round out the chant series of songs with a disease and a poison debuff version. It will not strengthen the offense of a bard, since we already have 3 we can twist together, but it will let us reduce resists that most other classes can't touch. Since we have a psalm song for every resist, having an equivilent debuff isn't out of character.

2) A self-only evade song. Each pulse would move us down the targets hate list, so we can sacrifice 1 group buff/song cycle to attract less attention from the mobs. This post is full of complaints about the unwanted attention a bard in a full group gets, this would help without having to change the dynamics of the hate list system.

3) If hot keys had 2 more lines, a recycle command, and would stay depressed, macros like this could be build:

/pause 27, /cast 1
/pause 3, /cast 1
/pause 27, /cast 2
/pause 3, /cast 2
/pause 27, /cast 3
/pause 3, /cast 3
/repeat

Once you press the hotkey, it stays depressed, cycling through the songs. When you press it again, it breaks the cycle. This will mean a bard could build macros for occasions like downtime, so a bard isn't having to hit a key every 3 seconds to be their most efficient. This adds nothing to the game, and gets very annoying.

dyahannah
Station Member posted 02-06-2001 11:29 PM
scythe, we have an evade song, its called song of dawn and it works well enough

TundraYeti
Station Member posted 02-07-2001 01:11 AM

...

Double Attack will not help bards, we have enough problems with agro as it is. The defense upgrade will mean I live an extra second maybe if something decides that I should die now. More hps, well, that's not really what barding is about. We enhance the group, subtly, and that's what I'd like to be able to do.

spankytoes
Station Member posted 02-07-2001 09:28 AM

...

Defense- I think that it has been well pointed out that we are MOB magnets. Give us some HP and AC. While I agree that instruments are the best tactic of attack in most cases, bards will find the need to melee in some cases. The fact that casters have 100 or so less HP than me is utterly ridiculous. That is 2 hits from a MOB in the 30's. If we have caster HP, then we should have stronger songs. If it came to a choice between a bard and a cleric dying...who will see the Loading screen? (At ANY level)

https://web.archive.org/web/20010206.../052807-2.html

Skalme
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 05:25 PM
Wow, some of these requests are a little overboard, but I kind of expected that.
My highest bard being level 41, I can't comment on the upper level stuff.

...

I can accept that I am lousy at melee, at my level I'm usually swinging a fist in between songs anyway. I expect this to continue. Is there a way to actually dual wield the fists with an instrument in your hand?

Aggro aggro aggro.. why is it that every monster in the universe hates bards more than any other class? I realize that song aggro has been dropped once already, but it's still quite high. (as an example) in CoM the other night, a SK was pulling things, when he got back to the group even if I wasn't singing it would fly past him and smack me until he taunted it off. This isn't all that uncommon, in other places any monsters beyond the first will charge past the tanks to the caster area where I am.

Those are all my comments/suggestions for the moment.

Jochomo
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 05:28 PM
*****
Absor,
*****
I doubt you'll read this far, but if so, I've tried to make your name more noticeable because I have several points to make:

1. "Bards are the most beat on of any class..." Aradune

2. "Bards are not really a hybrid class..." Abashi

What do these points have to do with anything?

Well, for the most part, if Bards are indeed the most beat on class (and at least up to and through the mid levels they appear to be) Bards are in SERIOUS need of a melee or defensive upgrade.

Consider this, I've played two bards, one up to 50 (BEFORE all the nerfs), and one up to 27 (AFTER all the nerfs), and I've also played warriors, druids, rogues, rangers, wizards, enchanters, etc. etc. etc.

I've yet to play ANY class that can agro mobs out of a train chasing someone else by doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, other than that of the bard.

Seriously! In Cazic, Unrest, or Mistmoore, some of your more train prevelant zones in the game I can have my bard, sitting, not singing, barely in agro range of a passing train, and at least ONE of the mobs if not more from that train will veer off and start attacking the mob. These mobs will PASS BY a meditating caster, ignore the taunting warrior or ranger, and STILL attack the bard.

It's laughable that it happens this way, but it does...

Please fix this agro issue.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010306.../052807-6.html

Lord_Elwyn
Station Member posted 01-30-2001 07:23 AM
>From what I'm hearing, bards, paladins and shadow knights are all 'defensive' hybrids. I'll add a suggestion to increase the defense caps of all three to the lists.
This to me seems a little silly. I really have no need for higher defence. I very rarely get attacked, and my damage output is so pathetic compared to the real melee classes that I don't think I could draw aggro even if I wanted to.
If you want to make bards more useful in combat, give them a low-capping double attack. I'm not asking for a 255 cap so I'll do as much damage as a warrior or ranger, but maybe a lower cap of 75 or 100 that'll just add 20-30% to my damage output. This could be a skill gained in the mid-high 50's to balance the declining 50+ bard damage output in comparison to other melee classes.

...

Elwyn
60 Bard

https://web.archive.org/web/20010306.../052807-4.html

Ionas
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 10:52 PM

Bards Lullaby song, it is pretty much useless to me. I do not use it anymore because it has such a high amount of taunt when it is resisted (which is often) I can be in the middle of a crowd of XXX mob and sing this song and 3 of the 4 creatures will get mezzed maybe if I am lucky, so I continue singing and it seems that the ones that are mezzed get another saving throw when I pulse the song again, so the first one is attacking me that did not get mezzed, and by the time I get them all mezzed I am almost dead.....then a few seconds later they break again. This song is resisted way too much since it seems to be a suicide song when it is played.

Our charm song: Works great for what I use it for...saving my warrior when he is getting trashed. I charm one mob and attack the other...(or to just charm it and give him a small break because when it breaks it will leave him alone for a while) gets one creature off of him and we have assistance in the fight, but when the charm breaks, even though he is about 6 levels above the creature with his taunt skill maxed, he cannot taunt the MOB off me for at least 3 tries usually. Please lower the taunt on this song....and maybe make it last longer in dungeon settings. Just a wish there, but it seems that this song will get me killed more than it will help me.

...

Bards in general have too high a Taunt effect on things. When in a group our attacks and singing often aggro things on us so much that I am told to stop singing or back off on my attacking because the warrior types are having a hard time keeping things from attacking me. I do not like sitting in a corner not doing what I can to pull my weight in a melee as best I can, but it is so bad I often need to use slower weapons and often stop singing just to stay alive. There is a rumor that bards are SuperConducting High Powered MOB Magnets...and I would have to say it is true.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010207.../052807-3.html

salsaccia
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 06:52 PM

I don't particularly mind the obscenely high taunt that my bard seems to be. Actually, it's kind of useful to know that the mobs are coming straight for me...it adds some predictability to the fight. We can strategize based on it. So, in summary...