Dmg/Delay + Sneak Pulling

[Ando]

I made a post on the p99 subreddit earlier and figured I should copy it over here. As someone mentioned on my original post, this does not account for Backstabs, Crits, Procs, Ripostes, etc. Just straight auto-attack damage. Everything else is too situational to put into an equation.

Lately I've been playing with a lot of newer players, and even some more experienced ones who don't fully understand Dmg/Delay/Damage Bonus and Sneak Pulling mechanics. I'd like to elaborate on both here because I feel each is important enough to take the time to write about - and I think it is also worth your time to read.

Dmg/Delay - Which weapon do I put in my offhand?
So a lot of you may have just heard the piece of advice, "put the best ratio weapon in your offhand!". This is not entirely bad, but it is not always the best choice either. The reason this matters is damage bonus. Damage what?

The following is straight out of the game mechanics section of the P99 wiki: Damage cap = (dmg * 2) where dmg is the weapon's stated damage. levels 1-9 - damage cap is 20 levels 10-19 - damage cap is 28 Levels 20-29 - damage cap is 60 30+ - lifted, can do 2x weapon damage or more based on class The dmg2 formula is true until lvl 28 where you get 1 bonus damage every 3 levels to your main hand attack. So at level 50 you get 8 extra bonus damage: main hand = (dmg2)+8 off hand = dmg*2

Just to clarify something I felt was unclear in the above statement. The Damage cap is the actual damage applied, not the damage on your weapon. So for example, at lvl 9 the maximum you can consistently hit for is 20, so a weapon with a damage of 11 or greater (11x2=22) will essentially be wasting part of its damage. Also, the damage bonus is not affected by the x2 multiplier. For example, if you have an 8/18 weapon with a dmg bonus of 1, then it will essentially be 8.5/18.

This is important when choosing the correct weapon at lower levels, especially when deciding whether to dual wield or use a 2 hander. For example, Wu's Quivering Staff (23/28 - 2hb) needs the player to be lvl 20 in order to hit for 46 damage consistently.
Another common weapon combination is Master Wu's Trance Stick (7/18) and Knuckle Dusters (14/28) - Both 1hb monk weapons. The KD clearly has the best ratio, but should it always go in the offhand? No.


Lets look at each level range.

1-9 ---> KD Damage is capped at essentially 10/28, making it a worse ratio than Trance Stick, and there is also no damage bonus at this level, so you want the best ratio weapon (Trance Stick) in main hand to maximize damage. Weapon choice -> Trance Stick mh, KD oh.

10-28 ---> KD damage is now essentially uncapped (14/28), and since there is no damage bonus on main hand yet (Because we are < lvl 28), you want the best ratio weapon in main hand since it will swing more often. Weapon choice -> KD mh, Trance oh.

28 and on ---> At 28 your main hand starts to get a damage bonus. For example at 28 your dmg bonus is 1. So ideally your main hand will hit for (weapon dmg * 2) + 1. For example, KD will hit for (14*2) + 1 = 29, so the effective dmg/delay ratio on KD in main hand is now 14.5/28, whereas Trance Stick would be 7.5/18.


If you plug those numbers into a calculator you can see the ratio on trance stick is going to go up faster than KD as you get a higher and higher damage bonus. At a certain dmg bonus it becomes better to have trance stick in MH, and KD in OH. What damage bonus, and level, is that? Lets look at it.

Taking into account damage bonus, at lvl 58 the KD ratio MH is 0.696. Trance stick ratio MH is 0.694. You can see even at 58 (same as 60), it is STILL better to use KD main hand Trance stick offhand, because the effective ratio is still better.
Lets pretend trance stick was 8/18 instead of 7/18. If that were the case, at lvl 43 it would be better to use Trance Stick MH, KD OH. You can check my math if you want, but I am fairly sure it is correct.

So lesson for this is instead of just taking someone's word for it - either make them prove it with math, or research it yourself. Choosing between Dual Wield / 2hb is much more difficult because you have to factor in things such as dual wield skill, ripostes, damage shields, and PVP jousting if you're on red.


On to the next topic: Sneak Pulling. After reading through monk guides on P99 wiki and seeing a few say Sneak is bad! Worthless skill! And talking to monks in game who have a sneak skill of 5 and are "pulling" lower guk, it made me frustrated.
If you are successfully sneaking, as in you hit sneak and slow down (you don't always slow down - sometimes sneak fails, but unless you're a rogue, it won't tell you), and you pull a mob with say a throwing knife, any mob that does not have YOU in its frontal 120 degree field of view will not aggro.

However, if the mob you pulled hits you before you pull enough range from its friends, and subsequently pulls you out of sneak, then you will aggro them all. Strafing helps you with this as you can move much more quickly while sneaking than walking in a straight line.

Experiment with sneak pulling - it could mean the difference between a pull your group survives and one that it wipes on. And it surely will mean the difference between being a terrible or good puller.


I hope this read was not too dry, and at least someone learned something from it.

[fiveeauxfour]

wait so is this only for pre 60? I feel like this is so much math I dont want to do in the name of minmaxquest

[Ando]

Then don't.

[Seredoc]

Originally Posted by Ando [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Taking into account damage bonus, at lvl 58 the KD ratio MH is 0.696. Trance stick ratio MH is 0.694. You can see even at 58 (same as 60), it is STILL better to use KD main hand Trance stick offhand, because the effective ratio is still better.
Lets pretend trance stick was 8/18 instead of 7/18. If that were the case, at lvl 43 it would be better to use Trance Stick MH, KD OH. You can check my math if you want, but I am fairly sure it is correct.

Granted it caps at 42 but using https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0 for dps calc purposes, you will see that T stick MH and KD OH is the slightly better option DPS wise as early as lvl 19.

[maskedmelon]

Originally Posted by Seredoc [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Granted it caps at 42 but using https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0 for dps calc purposes, you will see that T stick MH and KD OH is the slightly better option DPS wise as early as lvl 19.

Not sure I follow you, in your link it shows an Adamantite club in offhand paired with either trance stick or KD in main hand. If I am not mistaken, the OP is comparing the Trance Stick and KD when used together ^^

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by Ando [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So a lot of you may have just heard the piece of advice, "put the best ratio weapon in your offhand!". This is not entirely bad, but it is not always the best choice either. The reason this matters is damage bonus. Damage what?

tl;dr: God dammit no.

tl;dr;tl;dr: Select your offhand based off of the best ratio available because there is no damage bonus and it's a choice completely independent of the factors that would determine main hand selection. Golly.

[Veleria]

Also to consider at low level is that Dual wield is successful less often. In addition double attack does not always succeed in the off hand and is not even possible until around level 30.

[theaetatus]

Lately I've been playing with a lot of newer players, and even some more experienced ones who don't fully understand Dmg/Delay/Damage Bonus and Sneak Pulling mechanics.

So you decided to sum up all of their ignorance into one handy thread full of misinformation? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Cecily]

Originally Posted by Veleria [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also to consider at low level is that Dual wield is successful less often. In addition double attack does not always succeed in the off hand and is not even possible until around level 30.

So in general use your "best" weapon in mainhand, because DW is horrendous until the 50s. Assume your damage bonus sucks until the 50s too. Just go high ratio, leaning towards faster high ratios in main hand. For offhand, the only thing that makes one offhand better than another is ratio.

[Ando]

All the critics of this have not presented any actual good counterarguments. I'm all ears. Coming into a thread and saying, "No you're wrong dumbass" is not productive. If I'm wrong I'd like to know but I'd like to know why.