ZEM Listings

Fingurs · #1 02-26-2018, 05:25 PM

It seems that they are no longer up to date (in wiki). Has anyone else by any chance started one themselves? Needs help contributing to one?

Just got back after a year off and wanted to figure out what is what. Last year the ZEM modifier led me to zones I would've skipped entirely and made the experience even more memorable.

Thanks in advance if anyone knows or can help.

loramin · #2 02-26-2018, 05:41 PM

No; that's the short, unfortunate answer. Here's the problem: only two groups of people know the ZEMs. One group is the devs, and (keeping to the classic spirit) they refuse to release them.

The other group are players who are certifiably insane, because you'd have to be to figure out a ZEM without hacking P99 or being a dev. To do so you'd have to have character A solo (at least) one level, while staying entirely in a single zone, and always killing mobs of the exact same level. Then you'd have to have an identical character B do the same thing, with the same exact level of mobs, in another zone. Both would have to keep track of exactly how many of those "exactly the same level" mobs each one killed.

Once you did that you could divide one mob kill count by the other to determine the relative ZEM of those two zones to each other, but that still wouldn't give you either zone's ZEM. To get that you'd have to repeat the experiment across enough zones that you could be certain a subset of those zones were baseline zones (ie. ZEM 75 / 100% XP). Only once you had that could you finally start determining a zone's ZEM by comparing it's relative ZEM to the baseline zones.

... but of course almost no one has the patience to kill only mobs of a certain level in a single zone for even a single level, let alone to do the same thing for many different pairs of characters (for many levels worth of leveling) across many zones, especially at higher levels. Even just doing one relatively low-level character for one level is super difficult because most mobs have level ranges, and when you're leveling you don't want to fight white cons (ie. the only mobs whose level you can be certain of). To kill blue mobs of the same level consistently you'd need another slightly lower character sitting next to you conning everything.

On the positive side, I did file this bug, and hypothetically IF (big if) it ever gets resolved we might at least get some clues.

P.S. In case anyone is thinking "what if I used ShowEQ?", even a cheater who could see the exact XP awarded for each mob could only speed things up so much: they'd still have to do the same process, they just wouldn't need a full level worth of killing. But even that increase wouldn't make things all that much faster, and your progress would slow down a ton the moment you got banned.

7thGate · #3 02-26-2018, 05:51 PM

It wouldn't be quite as complicated as that. I did some testing with relative XP for gnoll fangs in Halas vs. Qeynos by taking screenshots and counting the number of pixels of blue on the XP bar before and after turnins (turns out its the same on a per-fang basis, as long as you are high enough level to avoid hitting the per-turnin cap in Halas). You could do a few kills, then use the XP movement to project with reasonable accuracy the amount you would need to level. Assuming the XP formulas to level listed in the wiki are accurate, you don't even need to compare to anywhere else to solve for the ZEM.

loramin · #4 02-26-2018, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It wouldn't be quite as complicated as that. I did some testing with relative XP for gnoll fangs in Halas vs. Qeynos by taking screenshots and counting the number of pixels of blue on the XP bar before and after turnins (turns out its the same on a per-fang basis, as long as you are high enough level to avoid hitting the per-turnin cap in Halas). You could do a few kills, then use the XP movement to project with reasonable accuracy the amount you would need to level. Assuming the XP formulas to level listed in the wiki are accurate, you don't even need to compare to anywhere else to solve for the ZEM.

That's basically the ShowEQ way, just with less specificity (I don't know how many decimal places of XP ShowEQ shows, but it's probably more specific than the pixel count). You can figure out "this zone is better than that zone" fairly quickly that way, but to get the actual percentage you need some decent numbers (eg. killing 10 in one zone and 11 in another could mean a relative ZEM of 90% ... or it could mean one of 85.6% or 94.4%; you'd have to kill more to find out). And again, quests make it seem easy: the hard part is just killing mobs of the exact same level long enough in two different zones.

Even if you assume (based on the wiki) that certain zones are baseline, you still have to kill X mobs of Y level in both a baseline zone and another zone (where X is however many it takes to determine the percentage; too lazy to do the math so that's why I said "a level or more", but in retrospect X is probably smaller than that).

Let's say you want to figure out the ZEM of Kedge (a popular ZEM question zone). You and a slightly lower character both need to go there, then the lower level character needs to find an even con mob, then you need to kill it without killing any other mob. That's like ten minutes right there IF you can pacify the mobs around your mob; if not you might need a third friend to kill the off-level mobs. Then you need to repeat that X times, then you'd need to do the same in a zone you assume to be ZEM 75 ... which also has mobs the same level as your friend.

loramin · #5 02-26-2018, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pokesan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

does p99 obscure this? it was easily detectable in-era

not classic!

I thought in-era people used ShowEQ (which was used, but also banned classically)? If not I don't see how they could do it without some variant of what I just described (which admittedly with 7thGate's pixel idea wouldn't be quite as bad.)

kgallowaypa · #6 02-26-2018, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The other group are players who are certifiably insane, because you'd have to be to figure out a ZEM without hacking P99 or being a dev. To do so you'd have to have character A solo (at least) one level, while staying entirely in a single zone, and always killing mobs of the exact same level. Then you'd have to have an identical character B do the same thing, with the same exact level of mobs, in another zone. Both would have to keep track of exactly how many of those "exactly the same level" mobs each one killed.

If someone actually did that...just thinking about the perspective, it would be like prasing rogaen as a god and anything he touches...almost unhealthy to a person who does such things when a dev can just 'leak' the ZEM.

skarlorn · #7 02-26-2018, 06:45 PM

ZEMs lead to terrible player behavior like thinking your only xp routes are thru HHK goblins and Mistmoore

I recently came across the usual scene in HHK. One party killing all of basement and a bunch of people sitting there, waiting on a list. There was a cleric, enchanter, and tank. How fucking dumb do you have to be to wait for an hour or two, getting 0 xp, for a spot in a good group instead of forming up with the people around you and go xp elsewhere? I ended up taking those scrubs into sol a and we had a neverending stream of goblin scum to kill. But if Sol A had been full, i assure you i could have found another xp spot and gotten there within 10 mins

forget about ZEMs you'll see a lot more of the game

loramin · #8 02-26-2018, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caiu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Figuring out a rough ZEM isn't too hard. Maximum xp gained is 10% per kill. However this 10% is modified by ZEM if the ZEM is higher/lower than the base. So you need two insane people one on a lvl 1 and another on a fd class.

Clever approach, way to apply your understanding of EQ mechanics! I still think it's more work than most people would be willing to do, but at least all these suggestions are getting us out of the "certifiably insane" level of effort and into just the "pain in the butt" level.

Jetlag · #9 02-26-2018, 07:33 PM

Caiu is a despicable player. He's also wrong. Last time I checked, it's 11% cap, regardless of ZEM. It's been that way since the 2013 patch that nerfed power leveling.

Also, I participated in Loramin's insane approach and applied it to popular zones: Nagafen's Lair, Kedge, HHK, SK, Guk, and a few others. It works best with 3 or 4 people to ensure consistent data. Hence, I can't share the specifics without their permission.

I can say, the spread was much lower between traditional baseline zones vs places like Kedge (especially since the ZEM nerf). One thing is certain, HHK is game-breakingly massive.

Lobus · #10 02-26-2018, 07:34 PM

I'm down to help with the lvl 1 since I don't have a high enough level FD class. At a certain mob level I would wonder how the lvl 1 would do enough dmg to get the xp. I'm guessing a class that could use a clicky nuke would have the best chance? Snare/root the fleeing mob and just click click click till you get lucky enough to land the killing blow?